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View Full Version : Madson to have TJ surgery



kaldaniels
03-23-2012, 08:29 AM
http://cincinnati.com/blogs/reds/2012/03/22/setback-for-madson/

Sounds like the typical pre-TJ remarks, and cinreds21 is usually spot-on. But the line that the Reds aren't overly concerned gives me some hope. Oh please....

kaldaniels
03-23-2012, 08:29 AM
Started a new thread b/c it is being discussed in 2 separate ones now.

WildcatFan
03-23-2012, 04:13 PM
Is that a failure on the part of whoever performed the physical?

MikeS21
03-23-2012, 11:01 PM
Is that a failure on the part of whoever performed the physical?
You gotta think that elbows and shoulders were double and triple checked during the physicals.

This is probably a spring thing and an injury occurred after the physical.

Crumbley
03-24-2012, 01:11 AM
Terrified.

Superdude
03-24-2012, 01:53 AM
Hard not to think the worst here. What a bummer. :(

membengal
03-24-2012, 07:54 AM
Not terrified. Hard to miss what they never had, and the presence Marshall is a great fallback.

Sea Ray
03-24-2012, 09:30 AM
I guess the "if we stay healthy" clauses can be dropped before Opening Day. It's always bugged me that folks use that language and the truth is nobody stays healthy; it's just a matter of how many injuries you get, how serious are they and to whom?

This is a bummer way to start the year for our Reds. My concern is that they've babied him throughout Spring Training and he still hasn't gotten better. Forget the rhetoric, I look at the facts and that one bothers me more than anyone's quotes.

Plus Plus
03-24-2012, 02:07 PM
https://twitter.com/#!/johnfayman/status/183615801826357249


Tommy John for Madson. Ligament was torn off the bone. #reds

Blitz Dorsey
03-24-2012, 02:07 PM
Per Fay.

What a bummer.

Vottomatic
03-24-2012, 02:11 PM
There goes the season. ;)

RedsManRick
03-24-2012, 02:11 PM
And there it is. Was holding out hope -- what a bummer indeed. Wonder if they've got insurance on him.

KoryMac5
03-24-2012, 02:13 PM
I would imagine Marshall will close. The question than becomes what do they do with Chapman. All indications are they would like him to start, does this injury change their minds.

RedsManRick
03-24-2012, 02:19 PM
And there it is. Was holding out hope -- what a bummer indeed. Wonder if they've got insurance on him.

To answer my own question, it appears that they don't have insurance on him. That's 10% of our payroll right down the drain.

Nasty_Boy
03-24-2012, 02:19 PM
I like Marshall in a mulitple inning role... How about Arendondo as the closer? He looks to be rounding back into pre-TJ form. I hate this about Madson! Hopefully this is the only set back of the season.

WildcatFan
03-24-2012, 02:24 PM
Tough, tough news. And with less than two weeks to figure out the closer situation. I expec it to be Marshall closing with Masset setting up. I wouldn't be surprised to see this place Chapman in the bullpen in a lefty setup role. That hurts.

Reds Fanatic
03-24-2012, 02:27 PM
Horrible news on Madson. From Fay's twitter: Walt said Marshall would be one possible candidate for closer and Chapman is also a possibility

Degenerate39
03-24-2012, 02:54 PM
Man, talk about a shot to the heart

1990REDS
03-24-2012, 02:55 PM
I love being a Cincinnati sports fan.

SirFelixCat
03-24-2012, 02:58 PM
Well, that sucks.


Not only losing Madson, but if this 'forces' Chapman to the BP, that is less than ideal as well. Man, this sucks. :(

RANDY IN INDY
03-24-2012, 02:59 PM
Not concerned, huh? Who gave him the physical before signing him? Just awful news. Sheesh!

SirFelixCat
03-24-2012, 03:01 PM
Not concerned, huh? Who gave him the physical before signing him? Just awful news. Sheesh!

Or it could have happened at the beginning of ST, no?

RANDY IN INDY
03-24-2012, 03:01 PM
Didn't even throw a pitch in a game for the Reds. Maybe never will.

RANDY IN INDY
03-24-2012, 03:03 PM
Or it could have happened at the beginning of ST, no?

Anything is possible.

WMR
03-24-2012, 03:03 PM
I want to know the timeline of this injury and if the proper due diligence was performed during the physical.

Caveat Emperor
03-24-2012, 03:03 PM
Didn't even throw a pitch in a game for the Reds. Maybe never will.

$8.5M for a player to never appear in a single game in a team uniform for his career has to be some kind of record.

cinreds21
03-24-2012, 03:06 PM
Nasty, I really, really like that idea. At one point, Arredondo was the Angels' closer of the future. NOW trading Boxberger really stings.

1990REDS
03-24-2012, 03:06 PM
Are there any type of injury clauses in his contract ? Is it possible he can just ride into the sunset next year with 8.5 million in his pocket without ever throwing a pitch? I can't find anything online.

Roy Tucker
03-24-2012, 03:08 PM
Poo.

I wonder if other teams smelled this and that's why the Reds got an apparent deal on Madson?

Caveat Emperor
03-24-2012, 03:09 PM
Tough, tough news. And with less than two weeks to figure out the closer situation. I expec it to be Marshall closing with Masset setting up. I wouldn't be surprised to see this place Chapman in the bullpen in a lefty setup role. That hurts.

The move shouldn't be to send Chapman back to the bullpen -- the move should be to trade Chapman for a proven closer, IMO.

lollipopcurve
03-24-2012, 03:09 PM
Good teams overcome adversity. There's depth and talent in this bullpen corps. My main concern in Baker's (in)ability to handle his relievers creatively.

Tough break for Madson -- I wonder if the fact that it's torn from the bone will make it a more difficult rehab.

RANDY IN INDY
03-24-2012, 03:13 PM
$8.5M for a player to never appear in a single game in a team uniform for his career has to be some kind of record.

Makes me want to throw up.

RANDY IN INDY
03-24-2012, 03:15 PM
Good teams overcome adversity. There's depth and talent in this bullpen corps. My main concern in Baker's (in)ability to handle his relievers creatively.

Tough break for Madson -- I wonder if the fact that it's torn from the bone will make it a more difficult rehab.

Rich teams overcome adversity.

kbrake
03-24-2012, 03:15 PM
I would keep with the plan I think Walt has had for Chapman since the end of last season. He still goes to Louisville to work as a starter. Let Marshall or Arredondo close, I think I would prefer Arredondo for right now. See how it goes.

757690
03-24-2012, 03:17 PM
The move shouldn't be to send Chapman back to the bullpen -- the move should be to trade Chapman for a proven closer, IMO.

Proven closers are overpriced and overrated. The Reds have more and better closing options without Madson then most team's currently do. I wouldn't make amy moves, except moving everyone up one notch in the bullpen.

kaldaniels
03-24-2012, 03:17 PM
To answer my own question, it appears that they don't have insurance on him. That's 10% of our payroll right down the drain.

I've always heard it is virtually impossible to efficiently insure such a deal. Anyone have insight on the matter?

Caveat Emperor
03-24-2012, 03:18 PM
Good teams overcome adversity. There's depth and talent in this bullpen corps.

The strength of the bullpen was predicated on having the one of the top setup men and one of the top closers in baseball. That's gone now.

My hope now is that the team doesn't drop some early games (that turn out to be crucial games down the stretch) cycling through people to find out who has the mental makeup to pitch the 9th.

cinreds21
03-24-2012, 03:19 PM
Now the Reds have to decide who do they want as their long-term closer; Marshall, Chapman, Arredondo or Brackman. I really think it forces the Reds to make a set-in-stone decision and/or plan.

RANDY IN INDY
03-24-2012, 03:21 PM
The strength of the bullpen was predicated on having the one of the top setup men and one of the top closers in baseball. That's gone now.

My hope now is that the team doesn't drop some early games (that turn out to be crucial games down the stretch) cycling through people to find out who has the mental makeup to pitch the 9th.

Yeah, it changes everything. Early games and getting off to a good start is crucial for this team in my opinion.

Caveat Emperor
03-24-2012, 03:21 PM
Proven closers are overpriced and overrated. The Reds have more and better closing options without Madson then most team's currently do. I wouldn't make amy moves, except moving everyone up one notch in the bullpen.

Proven closers are overpriced and overrated until you don't have one.

And why would you make Marshall a closer? He's been one of the best setup men in baseball over the past couple seasons. Why screw with what he does best and possibly end up weakening two positions (setup and closer)?

RANDY IN INDY
03-24-2012, 03:24 PM
Wonder if Bailey could embrace the roll? I doubt it with his problems getting loose, but closing is a little more set than other relief rolls. Wonder how hard he could throw for 3 outs?

Kc61
03-24-2012, 03:24 PM
I would keep with the plan I think Walt has had for Chapman since the end of last season. He still goes to Louisville to work as a starter. Let Marshall or Arredondo close, I think I would prefer Arredondo for right now. See how it goes.

Absolutely no way. (Hope that's decisive enough for you.)

The Reds cannot afford to have Chapman's golden arm in Louisville right now.

Who should replace Madson on the roster. Mahay? Carlos Fisher?

With the loss of Madson, the Reds should have Chapman on the pitching staff. Probably as a set up man for Marshall. But whatever capacity, Aroldis needs to be with the club.

Gallen5862
03-24-2012, 03:27 PM
Should The Reds bring back Judy? Do you include him in the setup or closer role?

WMR
03-24-2012, 03:27 PM
Trading Chapman for a "closer" would be an awful idea, IMO.

Caveat Emperor
03-24-2012, 03:29 PM
Trading Chapman for a "closer" would be an awful idea, IMO.

I don't know why. All he's proven, at this point in his career, is that he can occasionally throw the ball really hard (except during times where he inexplicably loses velocity -- like that stretch last year where he was barely hitting the mid-90s) and that he usually doesn't know where it's going.

I'll believe Chapman as a starter when I see it, and he's too mercurial with his command to ever be a back-end reliever.

The team can win in 2012/2013 without Aroldis Chapman. It can't win with a leaky bullpen.

757690
03-24-2012, 03:30 PM
Proven closers are overpriced and overrated until you don't have one.

And why would you make Marshall a closer? He's been one of the best setup men in baseball over the past couple seasons. Why screw with what he does best and possibly end up weakening two positions (setup and closer)?

Marshall was better than most closers the last two years. And nearly every great closer was once a set up guy.

Marshall - closer
Arredondo - set up
Bray - lefty set up
Masset 7th inning

That's still a better pen then most team's pen, and a very productive one.

Kc61
03-24-2012, 03:30 PM
Proven closers are overpriced and overrated until you don't have one.

And why would you make Marshall a closer? He's been one of the best setup men in baseball over the past couple seasons. Why screw with what he does best and possibly end up weakening two positions (setup and closer)?

I would close with Marshall. He is the best reliever on the staff. Nobody else has closer experience in the majors. I agree with 757690.

Ondrusek has closer experience in the minors. I think Logan is very underrated around here. But I would still go with Marshall.

I would set Arredondo pitch in late inning situations. If he does well, he possibly could become closer at some point. He has the stuff.

I have two fears. The first is that Bray also will miss part of the season.

The second is that Masset closes.

lollipopcurve
03-24-2012, 03:30 PM
Rich teams overcome adversity.

How'd the Cards do with their bullpen imploding all year? How about the Rays, on a shoestring budget, after Soriano and Benoit left in free agency? It's not a money issue. It's a depth issue and a managing/coaching issue.

There's no excuse for this team not being able to patch this hole, IMO, given the relief arms they've got.

757690
03-24-2012, 03:31 PM
Absolutely no way. (Hope that's decisive enough for you.)

The Reds cannot afford to have Chapman's golden arm in Louisville right now.

Who should replace Madson on the roster. Mahay? Carlos Fisher?

With the loss of Madson, the Reds should have Chapman on the pitching staff. Probably as a set up man for Marshall. But whatever capacity, Aroldis needs to be with the club.

Thanks for your opinion, Dusty ;)

Kc61
03-24-2012, 03:33 PM
Thanks for your opinion, Dusty ;)

If Dusty wants Chapman on his pitching staff, now that Madson is out, I am proud to agree with him. He would be correct.

Caveat Emperor
03-24-2012, 03:33 PM
Marshall was better than most closers the last two years. And nearly every great closer was once a set up guy.

The Reds sent quality talent to Chicago to pry away Marshall, and they still went out and got someone to close for the team.

That tells me everything I need to know about their faith in Marshall's ability to be anything other than a setup man.

Kc61
03-24-2012, 03:35 PM
The Reds sent quality talent to Chicago to pry away Marshall, and they still went out and got someone to close for the team.

That tells me everything I need to know about their faith in Marshall's ability to be anything other than a setup man.

It tells me they wanted a proven closer.

There is no proven closer on the team now.

So they should use the best reliever they have. Marshall.

RANDY IN INDY
03-24-2012, 03:35 PM
How'd the Cards do with their bullpen imploding all year? How about the Rays, on a shoestring budget, after Soriano and Benoit left in free agency? It's not a money issue. It's a depth issue and a managing/coaching issue.

There's no excuse for this team not being able to patch this hole, IMO, given the relief arms they've got.

We'll see. Losing a pitchee of that magnitude before the season starts surely makes it difficult to absorb other injuries to the staff, particularly when you've spent a significant portion of a limited payroll on that individual.

RANDY IN INDY
03-24-2012, 03:38 PM
This team better score some runs.

OnBaseMachine
03-24-2012, 03:40 PM
Trading Chapman for a "closer" would be an awful idea, IMO.

This.

reds1869
03-24-2012, 03:45 PM
Losing Madson stings, but it isn't time to hit the panic button. There are several guys who I am perfectly comfortable slotting into the closer's role. Flipping Chapman for a "proven closer" is just a bad idea. Imagine the outcry if Chapman is traded for a Cordero-type (a proven closer btw)...who also gets injured.

Kc61
03-24-2012, 03:47 PM
There is no need for the Reds to trade Chapman.

They should USE Chapman on the ballclub.

Except for that horrible stretch last year, he was effective frequently.

There has to be a role for Chapman on the team.

Caseyfan21
03-24-2012, 03:50 PM
Wonder if Bailey could embrace the roll? I doubt it with his problems getting loose, but closing is a little more set than other relief rolls. Wonder how hard he could throw for 3 outs?

I've been advocating Bailey to the bullpen for 2 years now. He has 2 plus pitches, throws hard and just seems like a natural fit for closing. If only he didn't have the issues loosening up I think he'd be a plus closer.

Nasty_Boy
03-24-2012, 03:51 PM
IMO, it's a waste to use Madson in the closer role... He provides more value being a 2-3 inning guy. So unless you use him the 8th and 9th, I'd much rather Arendondo or Brackman get the chance. Marshall will be successful in either role, but I'd rather him pitch 100-115 innings than 65 or 70.

JaxRed
03-24-2012, 03:56 PM
Closer is the most over-rated, easily filled spot on the team. I'd leave Marshall where he is and start with Masset and Ondrusek swapping chances.

traderumor
03-24-2012, 03:58 PM
The Reds sent quality talent to Chicago to pry away Marshall, and they still went out and got someone to close for the team.

That tells me everything I need to know about their faith in Marshall's ability to be anything other than a setup man.I would say it was capitalizing on a short-term opportunity based on the best information they had at the time. Madson fell to them for an offer they couldn't refuse, they didn't aggressively pursue him. Things fell into place. I don't think the signing really says more than that with regards to trusting Marshall.

Now, if they go in hot pursuit for a closer now, or next offseason, after extending Marshall, then you might be on to something.

RANDY IN INDY
03-24-2012, 03:58 PM
May be over-rated but not sure it's easy to fill. I'd much rather be trying to fill a utility infielder spot at this point.

RBA
03-24-2012, 04:03 PM
Danny Graves is available. He's only 38.

LoganBuck
03-24-2012, 04:06 PM
Hong-Chih Kuo has had some health and mental issues. The Mariners just released him this week. Time to go dumpster diving, and send him to Ted Power for a few weeks. Ted might need an interpreter.

_Sir_Charles_
03-24-2012, 04:08 PM
Chapman in the rotation, Bronson the closing sacrificial lamb. :O)

mth123
03-24-2012, 04:10 PM
Closer is the most over-rated, easily filled spot on the team. I'd leave Marshall where he is and start with Masset and Ondrusek swapping chances.

If it were my decision:

Arredondo CL
Marshall LHSU
Masset RHSU
Bray L
Ondrusek R
Lecure R
Francis Long relief

Latos
Cueto
Leake
Bailey
Arroyo...

...with Chapman starting in AAA. If things don't work, they can always bring Chapman up later, but keeping him on a starting schedule provides more options if its the rotation and not the pen that needs bailed out.

But, if they stick Chapman in the late innings while closing Marshall and can keep Francis around in AAA as the next starter in line, I'd be perfectly OK as well, but I'd prefer keeping options open with Chapman at this point.

This is a bad break, but even W/O Madson, this is one of the best bullpens in the league. This is not a death blow IMO. Losing Votto, Latos, Cueto or Bruce would be. They can win with those guys producing. They just need to adjust when others go down.

Gallen5862
03-24-2012, 04:10 PM
Should The Reds bring back Judy? Do you include him in the setup or closer role?what role would be best for him in the Pen?

mth123
03-24-2012, 04:13 PM
Should The Reds bring back Judy? Do you include him in the setup or closer role?what role would be best for him in the Pen?

Emergency help in AAA. The Reds aren't that far down the depth chart IMO. 4 or 5 guys would need to be hurt to get to him. Chapman, Francis, Christiani, Brackman and even Tomko are ahead of him IMO.

Tom Servo
03-24-2012, 04:20 PM
I had a single word response when I read this as the top news bulletin on rotoworld. You can probably guess what word it was. :(

RedsManRick
03-24-2012, 04:23 PM
It just occurred to me, Dusty must be at the height of his powers.

_Sir_Charles_
03-24-2012, 04:25 PM
It just occurred to me, Dusty must be at the height of his powers.

*rimshot*

I can just hear the cubs fans now. Dusty strikes again! :lol:

mbgrayson
03-24-2012, 04:29 PM
$8.5M for a player to never appear in a single game in a team uniform for his career has to be some kind of record.

And that is almost exactly 10% of the Reds total payroll. Ouch...

JaxRed
03-24-2012, 04:38 PM
And that is almost exactly 10% of the Reds total payroll. Ouch...

And exactly why you should never pay that to a closer.

Kc61
03-24-2012, 04:42 PM
Homer had his meltdown in the second today. He allowed a four spot to the hard hitting Giants.

I've been upset with Homer this spring, forgive me, I'll come around if he pitches better.

But for now -- could the Reds replace Bailey in the rotation with Chapman or Francis? And then trade Homer in a package deal to bring, among others, a new closer?

MartyFan
03-24-2012, 04:52 PM
And there it is. Was holding out hope -- what a bummer indeed. Wonder if they've got insurance on him.

Anyone know the answer too this?

RedLegsToday
03-24-2012, 04:55 PM
Madson's contract is interesting:

1 yr/8.5 million,
2012: 6 million of which $2 million deferred until 11/1/12, then another $2 million deferred until 11/1/13.
2013: 11 million mutual option ($2.5 million buyout)

I'm guessing the 6 million was set up that way because 11/1 is the start of the next budget year for the Reds? So, they are effectively paying him 6 million over 3 budget years. Also, it will be interesting to see if they work a deal with him over picking up the option.

RedLegsToday
03-24-2012, 04:56 PM
From what I've seen, there was no insurance on the contract

MartyFan
03-24-2012, 04:58 PM
From what I've seen, there was no insurance on the contract

Maybe I am just used to dealing with smaller numbers but how on earth do you invest 10% or so of your total talent budget into one player and not get an immediate insurance policy?

This baffle me. :confused:

Kc61
03-24-2012, 05:01 PM
Maybe I am just used to dealing with smaller numbers but how on earth do you invest 10% or so of your total talent budget into one player and not get an immediate insurance policy?

This baffle me. :confused:

Apparently it is unusual to insure one year contracts. Just what I've read.

Plus Plus
03-24-2012, 05:01 PM
Anyone know the answer too this?

Fay tweeted that players on one-year guaranteed contracts cannot have insurance placed on their contracts.

reds44
03-24-2012, 05:06 PM
With Bailey struggling in spring and Chapman pitching well, Chapman is almost forcing the Reds to keep him as a starter.

jojo
03-24-2012, 05:07 PM
How'd the Cards do with their bullpen imploding all year? How about the Rays, on a shoestring budget, after Soriano and Benoit left in free agency? It's not a money issue. It's a depth issue and a managing/coaching issue.

There's no excuse for this team not being able to patch this hole, IMO, given the relief arms they've got.

Yep.

Nasty_Boy
03-24-2012, 05:09 PM
With Bailey struggling in spring and Chapman pitching well, Chapman is almost forcing the Reds to keep him as a starter.

Bailey hasn't really struggled besides one outing, has he? It seems all of the starters have a had rough one, along with with a few good/decent ones.

reds44
03-24-2012, 05:12 PM
Bailey hasn't really struggled besides one outing, has he? It seems all of the starters have a had rough one, along with with a few good/decent ones.
He had given up 9 runs in 11 inning with a .341 BAA coming into his start today and he's getting whacked again as we speak.

Blitz Dorsey
03-24-2012, 05:20 PM
Hold the fort down for a couple months with in-house options ... and then trade for a veteran closer if the Reds are still in the race. That should be the plan IMO. Or, if Marshall becomes a solid choice as the closer and you don't want to screw that up, at least make a deal for a top-shelf set-up man (like the Brewers did last year getting K-Rod) before the deadline.

This doesn't put a fork in the Reds by any means; not even close. But man is it a kick in the family jewels. Madson was the steal of the offseason we thought. Instead, he was $8.5 million flushed down the toilet. Oh well, these things happen. Can't feel sorry for ourselves. Cardinals manned up and won the Series even after the Wainwright injury. And losing a TOR starter is much worse than losing a closer. This still stings though.

Kc61
03-24-2012, 05:25 PM
With Bailey struggling in spring and Chapman pitching well, Chapman is almost forcing the Reds to keep him as a starter.

The next start for Bailey and Chapman, late next week, could be important for them and the team.

Obviously the easiest move is to use Chappy in the pen, where he has experience, and leave Bailey in the rotation. That's the most expedient way to handle the Madson slot.

But Homer is pitching so poorly that you wonder if the presumptive rotation will change, with Aroldis getting a starting spot.

Caveat Emperor
03-24-2012, 06:05 PM
And exactly why you should never pay that to a closer.

The Reds were paying to have the best bullpen in the NL. I can't fault their thinking for a second.

Leaky back-ends are devastating for a team. It's why you rarely see teams with closer/setup-issues succeed. Even great starting pitching usually needs someone to throw the 8th and 9th in tight games.

AtomicDumpling
03-24-2012, 06:07 PM
Maybe I am just used to dealing with smaller numbers but how on earth do you invest 10% or so of your total talent budget into one player and not get an immediate insurance policy?

This baffle me. :confused:

Keep in mind that insurance is expensive. It would probably cost 2-3 million dollars to insure an 8.5 million dollar contract for a heavily-used relief pitcher.

In general, insurance is a bad investment. Most people spend far more on insurance premiums than they ever collect. That is how insurance companies make money.

MikeS21
03-24-2012, 06:12 PM
How much stock do you put in spring training numbers? Honestly, I haven't been all that impressed with ANY of our pitchers this spring. It's hard to single out Bailey when every one of the starters has had consistent melt-downs, with few exceptions. It's spring.

As far as Madson, it is a kick in the gut. And is any one else holding their breath, waiting on Latos or Cueto to go down?

Doc. Scott
03-24-2012, 06:22 PM
Well, Chapman threw five shutout innings against a (mediocre) big-league lineup today, while Bailey was hit hard by a roughly equal lineup and gave up a two-run homer to a guy with two bombs in 700+ big-league at bats.

Are we sure Chapman will be relegated to the bullpen in the face of Madson's injury? I don't know if I am.

Reds1
03-24-2012, 06:40 PM
Absolutely no way. (Hope that's decisive enough for you.)

The Reds cannot afford to have Chapman's golden arm in Louisville right now.

Who should replace Madson on the roster. Mahay? Carlos Fisher?

With the loss of Madson, the Reds should have Chapman on the pitching staff. Probably as a set up man for Marshall. But whatever capacity, Aroldis needs to be with the club.

did you see chapman pitch today. 5 perfect innings with 5 so and 1 walk and Homer pitched poorly. I'm not sure what happens, but I think Chap makes the rotation and we still have a decent pen that is if bray and massett aren't serious.

Reds1
03-24-2012, 06:41 PM
Maybe I am just used to dealing with smaller numbers but how on earth do you invest 10% or so of your total talent budget into one player and not get an immediate insurance policy?

This baffle me. :confused:
it's club policy to not do ins for 1 year contracts. Those policies are expensive.

Caveat Emperor
03-24-2012, 06:43 PM
did you see chapman pitch today. 5 perfect innings with 5 so and 1 walk and Homer pitched poorly. I'm not sure what happens, but I think Chap makes the rotation and we still have a decent pen that is if bray and massett aren't serious.

It's spring training.

I watched this Aroldis Chapman last year -- I don't believe he miraculous developed command in the off-season: http://scores.espn.go.com/mlb/boxscore?gameId=310515117

Reds1
03-24-2012, 06:44 PM
It's spring training.

I watched this Aroldis Chapman last year -- I don't believe he miraculous developed command in the off-season: http://scores.espn.go.com/mlb/boxscore?gameId=310515117

I'd rather have Chapman in there ever 5th day over at least 2 of our other current starters in the rotation

Kc61
03-24-2012, 06:44 PM
did you see chapman pitch today. 5 perfect innings with 5 so and 1 walk and Homer pitched poorly. I'm not sure what happens, but I think Chap makes the rotation and we still have a decent pen that is if bray and massett aren't serious.

My point it that Chapman needs to be with the Reds. Not at AAA.

I never expected that he would be ready to start games. I assumed he would be in the pen.

But whatever the role, I want him with the big club.

Reds1
03-24-2012, 06:46 PM
My point it that Chapman needs to be with the Reds. Not at AAA.

I never expected that he would be ready to start games. I assumed he would be in the pen.

But whatever the role, I want him with the big club.

I think in light of what's happened I agree totally, but with probably 2 more starts that might be enough for the REds to seriously consider him as a started and fill in the pen. How great to have Marshall. He allows this to still be an option.

Caveat Emperor
03-24-2012, 06:46 PM
I'd rather have Chapman in there ever 5th day over at least 2 of our other current starters in the rotation

He needs to prove that he can be counted on to consistently throw strikes and avoid implosion-outings where his command disappears entirely before I bring him north and count on him for 6 innings every fifth day.

You're already going to be asking more of the bullpen this season right out of the gate due to Madson's injury. You don't want exacerbate the situation by bringing a starter north (and, presumably, cutting ties with Homer Bailey) who is unproven and has shown a history of command problems.

Send him to AAA and make him earn his way onto the rotation before you force a spot for him.

Chip R
03-24-2012, 06:48 PM
I just happened to read this article from BP this morning that raised the question about if relievers being used properly. It's a little chart heavy but an interesting read nonetheless. Especially in light of what happened to Madson.

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=16287

Reds1
03-24-2012, 06:54 PM
He needs to prove that he can be counted on to consistently throw strikes and avoid implosion-outings where his command disappears entirely before I bring him north and count on him for 6 innings every fifth day.

You're already going to be asking more of the bullpen this season right out of the gate due to Madson's injury. You don't want exacerbate the situation by bringing a starter north (and, presumably, cutting ties with Homer Bailey) who is unproven and has shown a history of command problems.

Send him to AAA and make him earn his way onto the rotation before you force a spot for him.

I guess we agree to disagree. I'm not saying 100% start him as we still have maybe a couple more starts, but if Homer doesn't improve in his next 2 starts for example and chapman pitches like he did today. I am just saying consideration has to be given. Actually, I know Bronson gets a pass, but he hasn't looked too good either. I say Chapman may be the guy that gives the reds the best chance, that being said I'm not ready at all to give up on HOmer. Now Bronson I'm a little sick of watching him get drilled every night, but that's another thread. I really don't want Chap in the pen, but if bray, masset and others are still hurt I see no choice really.

lollipopcurve
03-24-2012, 06:55 PM
He needs to prove that he can be counted on to consistently throw strikes and avoid implosion-outings where his command disappears entirely before I bring him north and count on him for 6 innings every fifth day.

Check out Randy Johnson's career stats sometime.

Face it -- there are going to be growing pains with Chapman. The Reds are exceptionally lucky to have an arm like Chapman. That does not exempt them from having to be patient, understanding that some development time in the majors is required.

Think of the weeks-long funks guys like Stubbs and Bruce have gone through. Bad AB after bad AB after bad AB, game after game after game. For guys with big talent, you excuse it because you expect a big payoff down the road. Gotta see Chapman the same way, too, at some point. And so long as this stretch of starts in ST is something real, the time is drawing near.

Krusty
03-24-2012, 06:59 PM
Best thing the Reds can do is make Marshall the closer and package those who are out of options (Juan Francisco) for a lefthanded middle reliever.

Caveat Emperor
03-24-2012, 07:00 PM
Check out Randy Johnson's career stats sometime.

Face it -- there are going to be growing pains with Chapman. The Reds are exceptionally lucky to have an arm like Chapman. That does not exempt them from having to be patient, understanding that some development time in the majors is required.

Think of the weeks-long funks guys like Stubbs and Bruce have gone through. Bad AB after bad AB after bad AB, game after game after game. For guys with big talent, you excuse it because you expect a big payoff down the road. Gotta see Chapman the same way, too, at some point. And so long as this stretch of starts in ST is something real, the time is drawing near.

The difference is, when Stubbs and Bruce both go 0-20 over a few games, no one has to keep coming out of the dugout and wear themselves out cleaning up the mess..

I'm all for being patient with Chapman, but he has options. The place to be patient with him is at AAA. If he proves he's developed command and can throw 6+ innings every time out, by all means bring him up.

757690
03-24-2012, 07:11 PM
It's spring training.

I watched this Aroldis Chapman last year -- I don't believe he miraculous developed command in the off-season: http://scores.espn.go.com/mlb/boxscore?gameId=310515117

I believe Chapman is not well suited for relieving, especially after never doing it before he signed with the Reds. I believe what we saw was Chapmen learning to relieve on the job the last two seasons.

Now that he is back doing what he has done most of his career, start, I believe he is back in his comfort zone, and back to his normal level of control.

lollipopcurve
03-24-2012, 07:59 PM
If he proves he's developed command and can throw 6+ innings every time out, by all means bring him up.

I would be fine with him spending time in the rotation in AAA. But the reality is that he is a power pitcher, not a command guy. He will never be a guy who fans feel they can count on for 6+ "every time out." Reality check: only the elite go 6+ every time out, and guys like Halladay and Lee had some rocky seasons before becoming elite. You cannot be imposing impossible-to-meet standards on Chapman. He is going to have to learn some at the big league level, and fans are going to have to be patient with that.

westofyou
03-24-2012, 08:36 PM
Best thing the Reds can do is make Marshall the closer and package those who are out of options (Juan Francisco) for a lefthanded middle reliever.

Mike GOnzales is looking for work

Team Clark
03-24-2012, 08:42 PM
it's club policy to not do ins for 1 year contracts. Those policies are expensive.

I read this little tidbit in the paper and I was shocked. Although the policies are expensive, it's inconceivable to me a contract of his size was not insured. I know it's a one year deal, but they might have well just dumped 8.5 million in cash on the mound and set it on fire.

Most multi year deals of a hefty sum are insured and a separate physical is done for those. I'm guessing the current policy of one year, no insurance, will be reviewed by Mr. Castellini.

kaldaniels
03-24-2012, 08:52 PM
A lot of MMQBing in regards to the insurance is going on here guys. It is rarely done. Can't fault the FO for no insurance.

757690
03-24-2012, 09:03 PM
A lot of MMQBing in regards to the insurance is going on here guys. It is rarely done. Can't fault the FO for no insurance.

Yep. Crap happens. You deal with it the best you can and move on.

I imagine if the Reds insured every one year contract the size of Madson's, they would end up losing a lot of money. And if irrc, only half of Madson's contact goes against this years payroll, so it's not that big of a hit.

757690
03-24-2012, 09:05 PM
Mike GOnzales is looking for work

That's because he still wants a big contract. Not sure he's worth it. Maybe.

The Voice of IH
03-24-2012, 09:09 PM
This makes me sick, simply because of the big lead up and for it to happen so close to opening day. However, luckily the Reds have options and the bullpen should still be solid.

corkedbat
03-24-2012, 09:49 PM
Been gone today and just saw this - really, really sucks. Having the surgery now may mean he will be ready near the first of next season. His market for next season will be even weaker than this yer's. Maybe they can sign him for another year or two cheap.

Does nothing to help this year. Wouldn't be against moving Homer but I wonder how much someone would give for him at this point. I'd rather go with Aroldis on a short leash in the five spot at this point.

Haven't been able to keep up with a lot of individual performances so far, how has Brackman pitched this Spring (specifically his control)?

mbgrayson
03-24-2012, 09:57 PM
I read this little tidbit in the paper and I was shocked. Although the policies are expensive, it's inconceivable to me a contract of his size was not insured. I know it's a one year deal, but they might have well just dumped 8.5 million in cash on the mound and set it on fire.

Most multi year deals of a hefty sum are insured and a separate physical is done for those. I'm guessing the current policy of one year, no insurance, will be reviewed by Mr. Castellini.

Here is a fair use portion of an article that Baseball Prospectus (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=13011) wrote dated February 22, 2011 about insuring baseball players:


Some teams, however, donít use even this tactic and simply do not insure contracts. For instance, the San Francisco Giants (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/team_audit.php?team=SFN) opted not to insure the deals they agreed to with Barry Zito (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/card/card.php?id=ZITO19780513A) and Aaron Rowand (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/card/card.php?id=ROWAND19770829A), figuring that the contracts themselves carried enough risk. The Seattle Mariners (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/team_audit.php?team=SEA) are famous for not taking out disability insurance policies for their players, figuring that if underwriters would exempt the providers from payouts for injuries to a body part that was the specific reason they sought insurance, then why bother? When the team signed Richie Sexson (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/card/card.php?id=SEXSON19741229A) in 2005, they shopped around for quotes, but every policy exempted coverage for his surgically repaired shoulder that had been injured the year before. Why take out a policy if the shoulder was the reason they began searching?
What everything boils down to is a teamís assessment and its tolerable level of risk.

The article also says most of these policies exempt the next 90 days of salary after the injury, that the premiums are high, and that often any part of a player's body that has a prior injury is excluded. Knowing how expensive my family's health insurance is due to a few pre-existing conditions, I understand why they don't buy this insurance. Overall, no insurance company stays in business unless they come out ahead in selling these policies.

AmarilloRed
03-24-2012, 10:00 PM
Wasn't Marshall set to be the closer next year? It just means the timetable will need to be moved up a bit. It's really bad news for Madsen, particularly since he was counting on a big year to help him land that multi-year deal next offseason.

RedlegJake
03-24-2012, 10:52 PM
I'm not as bummed as most guys I guess. I'd put Arredondo in the closers role and never look back. The guy is the closer. Leave Marshall where he is as the setup guy. I'd force Arredondo to prove he isn't the man for the job and I'll bet he keeps the role and makes the Reds forget Madson except when they're writing checks. I'm not even worried about his spring numbers - they're the product of one outing essentially - he's K'd 11 in 7 innings and has been nearly untouchable except for that one game. Hand Jose the ball when the 9th comes and lets start the season...

jmcclain19
03-24-2012, 10:59 PM
Danny Graves is available. He's only 38.

Jeff Brantley's only 48 and the Reds are already paying him. Sounds like a match made in heaven.

Team Clark
03-25-2012, 12:46 AM
Here is a fair use portion of an article that Baseball Prospectus (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=13011) wrote dated February 22, 2011 about insuring baseball players:



The article also says most of these policies exempt the next 90 days of salary after the injury, that the premiums are high, and that often any part of a player's body that has a prior injury is excluded. Knowing how expensive my family's health insurance is due to a few pre-existing conditions, I understand why they don't buy this insurance. Overall, no insurance company stays in business unless they come out ahead in selling these policies.


Great article. I can see the value of not insuring a low risk position player. I would have to lean more toward insuring pitchers depending on their role and age/history.

BuckeyeRedleg
03-25-2012, 12:52 AM
Typical Reds luck. My goodness.

WebScorpion
03-25-2012, 01:47 AM
I was looking forward to Madson closing after years on the CoCocoaster. :( Well, I'm sure whoever they use in the 9th will be an improvement. :D

GAC
03-25-2012, 05:48 AM
Dr. Kremchek explained to Jocketty that bleeding made it appear the tear was recent.

http://espn.go.com/mlb/spring2012/story/_/id/7731716/cincinnati-reds-closer-ryan-madson-miss-season-elbow

A bummer, but we'll survive. If it's any consolation at all, I guess I'm glad it happened, or was discovered now, before the season began, rather then thinking it wasn't as severe, he'd work through it, and have him blowing games like Danny Graves in the first month of the new season.

oneupper
03-25-2012, 09:04 AM
Great article. I can see the value of not insuring a low risk position player. I would have to lean more toward insuring pitchers depending on their role and age/history.

I'd think that the insurance companies would load up on the premiums and fine print precisely for those risky cases.
Over the long haul injury insurance is not going to be cost-effective. As some said, you take your lumps and deal with it.

redsmetz
03-25-2012, 09:09 AM
I'd think that the insurance companies would load up on the premiums and fine print precisely for those risky cases.
Over the long haul injury insurance is not going to be cost-effective. As some said, you take your lumps and deal with it.

Somewhere in the article it mentioned in passing that generally insurance is looked at for contracts in the 2-4 year range - which indicates to me, particularly with the exceptions noted for the policies, that a one year policy would not be the norm. As you aptly put it, you take your lumps. And for everyone one contract that blows up (such as this one), you've got a number that don't. It evens out. It's unfortunate, but it happens. I'll echo what others have said, I'm glad we have the depth we do have.

Sea Ray
03-25-2012, 10:42 AM
http://espn.go.com/mlb/spring2012/story/_/id/7731716/cincinnati-reds-closer-ryan-madson-miss-season-elbow

A bummer, but we'll survive. If it's any consolation at all, I guess I'm glad it happened, or was discovered now, before the season began, rather then thinking it wasn't as severe, he'd work through it, and have him blowing games like Danny Graves in the first month of the new season.

I'd feel better about it if they'd gotten an MRI before signing him. If you're risking $8.5 mill, why wouldn't you spend a grand and get an MRI first? Does anyone know if they did? I'd like to know the condition of the elbow before committing to such a deal.

CySeymour
03-25-2012, 11:34 AM
If it matters, the Twins lost Joe Nathan two years ago and still made the playoffs. This isn't the same as losing Votto or Latos. Shoot, the Cards lost Wainwright last year and won the whole thing. We just have to hope the team doesn't overreact and move a valuable asset for a "proven closer."

edabbs44
03-25-2012, 11:59 AM
I'd feel better about it if they'd gotten an MRI before signing him. If you're risking $8.5 mill, why wouldn't you spend a grand and get an MRI first? Does anyone know if they did? I'd like to know the condition of the elbow before committing to such a deal.

How do you know that they didn't?

RANDY IN INDY
03-25-2012, 12:06 PM
How do you know that they didn't?


I'd feel better about it if they'd gotten an MRI before signing him. If you're risking $8.5 mill, why wouldn't you spend a grand and get an MRI first? Does anyone know if they did? I'd like to know the condition of the elbow before committing to such a deal.

Roy Tucker
03-25-2012, 12:13 PM
Jeff Shaw or David Weathers are available. ;)

edabbs44
03-25-2012, 12:28 PM
I know, but that post seemed like a veiled assumption that they didn't, with the bolded part as a hedge.

Team Clark
03-25-2012, 01:08 PM
I looked into Madson's contract and figured out why insurance wasn't a consideration despite the Reds' policy. I must have missed this when he was signed. My apologies.

His 1 year $8.5 million deal is broken down to $6 million due this season 2012. $4 million deferred with a $2.5 million buyout on the $11 million 2013 option. In all reality he was being paid $2 million this year. Low risk. Great maneuvering by Walt, poor pillow contract by Boras.

Sea Ray
03-25-2012, 01:35 PM
I know, but that post seemed like a veiled assumption that they didn't, with the bolded part as a hedge.

You read it correctly. I don't think they did but I'd like to know. To answer your question directly (as I always like to do) I do not know that they didn't. My assumption is that they didn't because my guess is we'd be hearing tweets that the MRI was clean in January thus it must have been a new injury.

Does that clear up all your questions regarding my post?

edabbs44
03-25-2012, 02:18 PM
You read it correctly. I don't think they did but I'd like to know. To answer your question directly (as I always like to do) I do not know that they didn't. My assumption is that they didn't because my guess is we'd be hearing tweets that the MRI was clean in January thus it must have been a new injury.

Does that clear up all your questions regarding my post?

Sure, thx for the overtime. But we are hearing that this is a new injury, since there is bleeding showing in the new MRI.

traderumor
03-25-2012, 03:08 PM
http://espn.go.com/mlb/spring2012/story/_/id/7731716/cincinnati-reds-closer-ryan-madson-miss-season-elbow

A bummer, but we'll survive. If it's any consolation at all, I guess I'm glad it happened, or was discovered now, before the season began, rather then thinking it wasn't as severe, he'd work through it, and have him blowing games like Danny Graves in the first month of the new season.This is the way I feel also. After getting over the disappointment, it seems to break down this way: Madson made an above average bullpen arguably the strongest bullpen in the majors. But, this is still an above average bullpen as is. Marshall, Massett, Bray, Arredondo, Ondrusek should be a good enough bullpen on paper to get these team to the playoffs. The biggest wildcard on the team is still the rotation. That's why I hope they don't panic and move Chapman back to the bullpen.

cinreds21
03-25-2012, 03:20 PM
What's up with all this insurance talk? I have never heard about a contract being insured other than maybe Hamilton. Injuries happen.

edabbs44
03-25-2012, 03:24 PM
What's up with all this insurance talk? I have never heard about a contract being insured other than maybe Hamilton. Injuries happen.

Nah, I think some big contracts have been insured.

Sea Ray
03-25-2012, 06:20 PM
What's up with all this insurance talk? I have never heard about a contract being insured other than maybe Hamilton. Injuries happen.

I've never heard of a one yr contract as being insured. The last one I remember was the Jose Rijo one and the deductible was huge among other things. Very few contracts are worth the money to insure

mattfeet
03-25-2012, 08:50 PM
Why not offer to extend Madson? Offer a 2-yr 12-15MM extension while he's down. Guys come back from TJ surgery SO quick nowadays with very little downside (other than missing the 1 season). His shot for a huge contract has now disappeared like a fart in the wind. I think he might bite on some security moving forward.

-Matt

kaldaniels
03-25-2012, 09:03 PM
Why not offer to extend Madson? Offer a 2-yr 12-15MM extension while he's down. Guys come back from TJ surgery SO quick nowadays with very little downside (other than missing the 1 season). His shot for a huge contract has now disappeared like a fart in the wind. I think he might bite on some security moving forward.

-Matt

I was thinking the same. Try to make lemonade out of this somehow. I know a deal is a deal, but perhaps Madson will do an honorable (for lack of a better term) thing and cut the Reds a deal, though he has no duty to.

Tom Servo
03-25-2012, 09:54 PM
I'm on board with trying to retain Madson after this year.

jojo
03-25-2012, 10:52 PM
If its TJ surgery, Maddy likely won't be able to pitch again until mid to late next season. The reds will almost certainly buy him out.

kaldaniels
03-25-2012, 11:16 PM
If its TJ surgery, Maddy likely won't be able to pitch again until mid to late next season. The reds will almost certainly buy him out.

Wainwright is pitching now. Not trying to argue but I expect Madson to be pitching next spring. Adam's surgery will have been 1 month earlier than Madsons. Mid to late season seems a stretch. But I do agree I expect the contract to be bought out.

cinreds21
03-26-2012, 03:36 AM
If he has it this week he should be ready around Opening Day 2013, no doubt.

MikeThierry
03-26-2012, 10:50 AM
Wainwright is pitching now. Not trying to argue but I expect Madson to be pitching next spring. Adam's surgery will have been 1 month earlier than Madsons. Mid to late season seems a stretch. But I do agree I expect the contract to be bought out.

This is true but Wainwright's progress went without any setbacks. Some guys, like Waino, go through the motions without any issues and a chunk of guys coming back do have problems.

I'm sorry to hear that this happened. I was away from the computer all weekend and I thought to myself "wow, this is blowing up the RedsZone". I haven't read through all the responses but what will the Reds do to replace him in the bullpen?

_Sir_Charles_
03-26-2012, 11:01 AM
This is true but Wainwright's progress went without any setbacks. Some guys, like Waino, go through the motions without any issues and a chunk of guys coming back do have problems.

I'm sorry to hear that this happened. I was away from the computer all weekend and I thought to myself "wow, this is blowing up the RedsZone". I haven't read through all the responses but what will the Reds do to replace him in the bullpen?

We're bringing back Ryan Franklin. That should solve the problem. *grin*

kaldaniels
03-26-2012, 11:25 AM
This is true but Wainwright's progress went without any setbacks. Some guys, like Waino, go through the motions without any issues and a chunk of guys coming back do have problems.

I'm sorry to hear that this happened. I was away from the computer all weekend and I thought to myself "wow, this is blowing up the RedsZone". I haven't read through all the responses but what will the Reds do to replace him in the bullpen?

Strasburg was back rehabbing in the minors in less than a year. Pitching for the Nats in a year + 2 weeks. So, if I am planning on a setback, sure Madsons timetable is delayed. But if you are asking me to guess his return, I am not figuring in a setback. Though it could happen certainly. Somewhere out there exists the average number of days it takes to come back from TJ. If you can locate it I will be glad to use that.

OnBaseMachine
03-26-2012, 11:36 AM
I'm on board with trying to retain Madson after this year.

Me too. Hopefully they can bring him back on a cheaper deal.

bucksfan2
03-26-2012, 11:53 AM
Me too. Hopefully they can bring him back on a cheaper deal.

I thought to my self do you rework his contract now?

The problem is next years option and how that figures into the question. If your going to bring him back you would need to extend the deal into the future. It would be a risk, but one that could really pay off.

brad1176
03-26-2012, 12:00 PM
I thought to my self do you rework his contract now?

The problem is next years option and how that figures into the question. If your going to bring him back you would need to extend the deal into the future. It would be a risk, but one that could really pay off.

They could rework his contract, but I would guess that they will wait to see what happens this season. If someone steps up (Marshall, Chapman) and has a great year as the closer, then they wouldn't need to tie up money in Madson as those guys are already under contract for a while.

MikeThierry
03-26-2012, 12:04 PM
We're bringing back Ryan Franklin. That should solve the problem. *grin*

Can the Reds please do this? It would almost ensure the Cardinals a Central division championship. :D

MikeThierry
03-26-2012, 12:05 PM
Strasburg was back rehabbing in the minors in less than a year. Pitching for the Nats in a year + 2 weeks. So, if I am planning on a setback, sure Madsons timetable is delayed. But if you are asking me to guess his return, I am not figuring in a setback. Though it could happen certainly. Somewhere out there exists the average number of days it takes to come back from TJ. If you can locate it I will be glad to use that.



Good point about Strasburg. I would also think that relievers coming back from TJ would be easier because they aren't pitching multiple innings in a given game.

REDREAD
03-26-2012, 02:28 PM
Man, my heart sank when I heard this on the radio this morning :(

I am not sure I want to rework Madson's contract at this point.
The team is going to be in a money pinch next year. They were in a pinch this year, as evidenced by Madson's creative contract.

I really don't want to invest big money in a TJ person.. Look at Arrondo.. He had TJ too, right? Look at Volquez.. It seems like many guys just don't come back as effective. Some do, some don't.

Sure, I'm up for bringing Madson back at 2-3 million, but not 11 million.. Isn't his option year at 11 million? I don't see he and Boras compromising and giving the reds a discount.

SirFelixCat
03-26-2012, 03:27 PM
They could rework his contract, but I would guess that they will wait to see what happens this season. If someone steps up (Marshall, Chapman) and has a great year as the closer, then they wouldn't need to tie up money in Madson as those guys are already under contract for a while.

That's my take on this, to a tee as well. He's under the Reds exclusive control all season. We can wait until late in the year to rework/extend his contract, if Marshall et al. aren't what we hope for. But if they are, no need to spend the extra money when he's already been replaced.

OnBaseMachine
03-26-2012, 04:06 PM
From Mark Sheldon:


There is an $11 million mutual option included in Madson's contract for next season, with a $2.5 million buyout. It'd be hard to fathom it being picked up by the club, but Madson did not close the door on returning to the Reds in 2013.

"There's definitely interest there, and now I want to prove to them that if I can get through this, I can pretty much get through anything," Madson said. "Once I prove to them that is the case, I'm sure they will be more than interested."



http://cincinnati.reds.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20120325&content_id=27591350&vkey=news_cin&c_id=cin

Kc61
03-26-2012, 04:11 PM
Nice words from Madson. He's probably gone. Some larger market will pay him to rehab and come back over a couple of seasons. Reds can't do that.

SirFelixCat
03-26-2012, 05:23 PM
Nice words from Madson. He's probably gone. Some larger market will pay him to rehab and come back over a couple of seasons. Reds can't do that.

That's definitely possible. It's also possible that the guys who 'move up' in the BP positions do well and Madson becomes expendable and no need to do so.

Then again, it's possible, even w/ Boras as his agent, that he feels that he 'owes' the Reds or that he challenges himself to 'earn' the money paid this year. Sure, it's a business, but not ever single human is always about the $$$ exclusively.

It's likely he leaves for more $, but I wouldn't rule out him staying if the Reds are interested. But I'd like to see the Reds wait until at least the ASG and see how the BP is faring w/o him before they make a decision to try and extend him or not.

kaldaniels
03-26-2012, 05:31 PM
With him missing this season, I assume any comp picks we may have gotten are gone as well, no?

redsmetz
03-27-2012, 03:58 PM
Arredondo on Madson's injury:

http://cincinnati.reds.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20120326&content_id=27642922&notebook_id=27642926&vkey=notebook_cin&c_id=cin

Sea Ray
03-27-2012, 04:17 PM
Arredondo on Madson's injury:

http://cincinnati.reds.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20120326&content_id=27642922&notebook_id=27642926&vkey=notebook_cin&c_id=cin

That story is kind of makes you not want to sign Madson for much money next yr. Basically he's saying "don't expect much"