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View Full Version : Reds trade Juan Francisco to Braves for RHP J.J. Hoover



OnBaseMachine
04-01-2012, 01:00 PM
From the Reds twitter:

#Reds acquire from Braves RHP J.J. Hoover in exchange for IF Juan Francisco. Hoover assigned to Louisville.

https://twitter.com/#!/Reds

OnBaseMachine
04-01-2012, 01:02 PM
Hoover is a 6'3" 215 pound RHP, 24 years old. Has a career 3.14 minor league ERA in 401 IP, with a 2.7 BB/9 and 9.5 K/9. Has started 61 of his 99 career games.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/minors/player.cgi?id=hoover001jj-

OnBaseMachine
04-01-2012, 01:04 PM
The tall right-hander features a fastball in the 93-97 mph range and a curve and slider.

http://braves.scout.com/a.z?s=248&p=8&c=1&nid=3933062

OnBaseMachine
04-01-2012, 01:06 PM
John Sickels profiled Hoover in September and sounds pretty high on him. Sounds like the Reds did well.


Hoover has the four classic pitches: fastball, curveball, slider, changeup. His heater is a tick above average in the low 90s, but works well due to the contrast with his secondary pitches. All three of his non-fastball offerings are rated as solid major league average. Although he doesn't have a genuine plus pitch, none of them are weak, arsenal is diverse, he mixes them well, throws strikes, and has been extremely durable in his career. He's maintained his strikeout rate and K/BB ratios at each level, and he's never had a serious injury. He is a strong fly ball pitcher, but doesn't give up an excessive number of home runs.

For most teams, Hoover would profile as a solid number three or four starter, chewing up innings at a good clip with consistent performance. But the Braves see Hoover's path to the majors as clearing more quickly in the bullpen, and it is hard to argue with the results so far: he's been outstanding in that role in Triple-A. He's been named as one of Atlanta's representatives in the Arizona Fall League, one of the last stepping stones to the majors, and should compete for a relief job on the big league staff in 2012.


http://www.minorleagueball.com/2011/9/6/2400464/prospect-of-the-day-j-j-hoover-rhp-atlanta-braves

Kc61
04-01-2012, 01:08 PM
BA has Hoover with the best slider among Braves prospects. Sorry to see JF go, but Reds seem to have acquired a quality pitching prospect.

mth123
04-01-2012, 01:17 PM
Not a bad deal. Rolen better stay healthy.

MartyFan
04-01-2012, 01:17 PM
I don't think this is an isolated move...I think it says something more about Bailey and or Leake.

Roy Tucker
04-01-2012, 01:21 PM
Interesting.

Love the added pitching depth, but 3B is a little thin now.

Vottomatic
04-01-2012, 01:22 PM
I hate this move.

Kc61
04-01-2012, 01:23 PM
Hoover was a reliever last year. High strikeout rate, walks his share.

Did well in the AA bullpen, went to AAA late in the season.

Reds might have been down on JF, they got a quality arm for him, but a guy apparently slated for the bullpen.

Hoover could be in Cincy before you know it with the holes in the Reds bullpen due to injury.

I agree that we could see other moves today, possibly other trades.

Also, Reds are so thin in lefty bats, wonder if this means that Willie Harris makes the team. Frazier had a good spring, but is another righty.

I was a big JF fan, sorry he's gone, but Reds life goes on.

MartyFan
04-01-2012, 01:26 PM
Hoover was a reliever last year. High strikeout rate, walks his share.

Did well in the AA bullpen, went to AAA late in the season.

Reds might have been down on JF, they got a quality arm for him, but a guy apparently slated for the bullpen.

Hoover could be in Cincy before you know it with the holes in the Reds bullpen due to injury.

I agree that we could see other moves today, possibly other trades.

Also, Reds are so thin in lefty bats, wonder if this means that Willie Harris makes the team. Frazier had a good spring, but is another righty.

As I understand it he was slated for the BP only to help his path to the MLB level...he is widely viewed as a MLB number 3-4 pitcher...adds good depth and he has OPTIONS.

I don't think Homer will be with the Reds on opening day...just a gut feeling, I have no crystal ball or any sources, just thinking out loud.

nate
04-01-2012, 01:27 PM
His career minor league peripherals look an awful lot like Nick Masset's 2011.

I hope he doesn't suck!

LOL! GET IT? HOOVER? SUCK?

I slay myself.

:cool:

Kc61
04-01-2012, 01:28 PM
As I understand it he was slated for the BP only to help his path to the MLB level...he is widely viewed as a MLB number 3-4 pitcher...adds good depth and he has OPTIONS.

I don't think Homer will be with the Reds on opening day...just a gut feeling, I have no crystal ball or any sources, just thinking out loud.

I hope you are correct. It was a bit deflating to read that Hoover pitched relief last season. JF has his flaws, but I would hate to see him traded for a non-closer relief pitcher.

Vottomatic
04-01-2012, 01:28 PM
Bailey and BP to the Phils for Hamels. :D

April Fools!!!

VottoFan54
04-01-2012, 01:33 PM
He allowed 5 home runs in 105 innings last year, but his GO/AO was .54.

jojo
04-01-2012, 01:35 PM
Hopefully he can be more than a righty version of Maloney.

Edd Roush
04-01-2012, 01:37 PM
Juan seemed to have all the raw skills necessary to be an All-Star 3B in the future. That being said, I never liked his walk rate and he was never fundamentally sound on defense. I was always back and forth between who I liked better between Frazier and Francisco. I hate to see Francisco go, but you can never have enough good arms.

I am lukewarm on this deal.

Kc61
04-01-2012, 01:41 PM
He allowed 5 home runs in 105 innings last year, but his GO/AO was .54.

The fly ball rate is frightening.

lollipopcurve
04-01-2012, 01:43 PM
Hopefully Hoover turns into a good BP arm (sounds to me like that's his destination). If Francisco fulfills his potential, this will be a tough trade for the Reds to look back on. Fortunately, Frazier may be able to step in for Rolen, and it looks like HRod and Vidal could become good options at that spot too, down the road.

Vottomatic
04-01-2012, 01:53 PM
It might be a future move for the starting rotation too. Wainwright and others relieved for a few years before hitting the starting rotation. The guy is young.

Arroyo walks after 2013. Bailey might not be here if he doesn't get his crap together.

Hoosier Red
04-01-2012, 01:54 PM
Interesting.

Love the added pitching depth, but 3B is a little thin now.

I dunno, JF was the 4th option at 3rd base IMO. If it's for a one game thing, most likely Cairo gets the call. If it's for longer mayber Frazier and/or Cairo.

Vottomatic
04-01-2012, 01:56 PM
Dusty never seemed to like Juan.

hebroncougar
04-01-2012, 02:00 PM
I think this move says a lot about how the management feels at this point. They need LH bats, and yet they move Francisco. I don't think he came to camp in baseball shape (injured), and his defense has never been what they wanted at 3b. I don't think anyone is comfortable with the Reds pen at this point.

lollipopcurve
04-01-2012, 02:00 PM
Dusty never seemed to like Juan.

Prior to this spring, Baker loved Francisco.

RANDY IN INDY
04-01-2012, 02:03 PM
Dusty never seemed to like Juan.

Why do you say that? Any quotes from Baker that would suggest that. I doubt any of the Reds brass cared for the fact that he came to spring training out shape and overweight.

Ron Madden
04-01-2012, 02:05 PM
I liked Francisco, the Braves rarely trade away good pitching so right now I'm not sure how this trade will work out.

As for Rolen's back up give me the best hitter, don't care if he hits RH or LH. I'll take Frazier over Harris any day because I believe Frazier is/willl be the better hitter.

klw
04-01-2012, 02:12 PM
I hope he does better than Bong and Bubba Nelson.

dougdirt
04-01-2012, 02:12 PM
Hopefully he can be more than a righty version of Maloney.

Stuff is certainly better, but his extreme fly ball tendencies are scary. For 2010 and 2011, his combined groundball rate is just under 30%.

Doc. Scott
04-01-2012, 02:20 PM
I read through the paragraph on Hoover in my BA Prospect Handbook. He's #12 in the Atlanta system, down two spots from #10 in the 2011 guide. Apparently the Braves moved him to the bullpen after he was hit hard in two starts at AAA Gwinnett in mid-May. After that switch, he put up a 0.77 ERA and whiffed 47 batters in 35 IP between AA and AAA.

But someone in the Braves' brass apparently wasn't impressed; he wasn't called up to the big leagues in September, instead earning a ticket to the Arizona Fall League. Hoover earned a spot in the AFL's Rising Stars game despite an 8.03 ERA. It's very common for a team to send a guy they're trying to build up for a trade to the AFL, so my guess is that they'd already decided he wasn't going to play a major role in 2012.

The worst thing BA says is that Hoover is a "below-average athlete with a maxed-out body". His pitches are generally complimented, as he worked at 88-92 as a starter but added 2-3 mph from the pen. He also throws a low 80s slider with good deception and improved his changeup in 2011. They list his likely ceiling as a No. 4 starter or seventh-inning reliever, and give him a 20-80 overall grade of 50 with "Medium" risk.

My thought is that Hoover is sort of like the Braves' version of Carlos Fisher (http://www.baseball-reference.com/minors/player.cgi?id=fisher004cha), with a similar small-college background and modest mid-round draft pedigree- except younger (but same level) when he made the switch to relief. It sounds from reading here as though he's a fly-ball pitcher versus Fisher's ground-ball tendencies, but BA says nothing about that. The guy put up some sincerely great K/BB ratios at several levels, and did it without being old for his league. I think he could definitely be better than Fisher.

RedsManRick
04-01-2012, 02:21 PM
I like selling high on Fransisco and opening up a spot for Frazier, but I'm always wary of trading for a Braves pitcher. I think Fransisco will have a nice little major league career along the lines of a Marcus Thames. He'll hit for power and start from time to time, but he'll never get on base enough to be a regular.

traderumor
04-01-2012, 02:23 PM
Why do you say that? Any quotes from Baker that would suggest that. I doubt any of the Reds brass cared for the fact that he came to spring training out shape and overweight.Yea, Dusty ripped Francisco on the record for not rehabbing properly. I read that and said "he's a short-timer." I didn't know what to make of JF, but I did not have very much confidence in him assuming the every day job. Obviously, neither did the Reds.

Redsfan320
04-01-2012, 02:25 PM
Thought for sure this was an AF joke... since its not, I like it. I was ready to dump Francisco. Frazier will do big things up here, IMO. Its just an added bonus that we actually got a decent prospect in Hoover.

320

Caseyfan21
04-01-2012, 02:32 PM
I like selling high on Fransisco and opening up a spot for Frazier, but I'm always wary of trading for a Braves pitcher. I think Fransisco will have a nice little major league career along the lines of a Marcus Thames. He'll hit for power and start from time to time, but he'll never get on base enough to be a regular.

Sums up my thoughts exactly.

RANDY IN INDY
04-01-2012, 02:33 PM
Yea, Dusty ripped Francisco on the record for not rehabbing properly. I read that and said "he's a short-timer." I didn't know what to make of JF, but I did not have very much confidence in him assuming the every day job. Obviously, neither did the Reds.

My problem with Francisco, like Dusty, if what you attributed to him is correct, is that he didn't rehab properly with a real shot at making the big league club this season. With his body type, and attitude toward conditioning, injuries would seem to be even more a problem going forward as he ages. I also saw Francisco play in Indy several times and he seemed to be "big leaguing" it. Very disengaged, going through the motions, not attentive in the field, and an overall bad attitude. I have a hard time rewarding that.

traderumor
04-01-2012, 02:36 PM
I like selling high on Fransisco and opening up a spot for Frazier, but I'm always wary of trading for a Braves pitcher. I think Fransisco will have a nice little major league career along the lines of a Marcus Thames. He'll hit for power and start from time to time, but he'll never get on base enough to be a regular.I'm always afraid of Braves pitchers since we've always gotten screwed.

RED VAN HOT
04-01-2012, 02:38 PM
I like the trade. JF looked like a player with tantalizing power that would frustrate and in the end break your heart. A series of events...nagging injuries, reporting overweight, little progress in addressing deficiencies known to exist for several years, and an inability to option him...made a trade likely. The Braves have an urgent need to back and then replace Chipper at 3rd. The pieces fell into place and produced a better return for the Reds than might otherwise have been expected.

klw
04-01-2012, 02:39 PM
I assumed that as Hoover was assigned to Louisville that he is not on the 40 man roster.

westofyou
04-01-2012, 02:51 PM
Limited tools, questionable durability and a small window to climb through on the current club. Any arm is a gamble, any Brave give away is as well, but it's a good fit, Braves have a power hole and an injured 3rd baseman, chances are the arm is not a pure throw away. Both teams had needs to fill, the Reds needed a slot to open and the Braves needed a body that was ready.

Nice trade for both sides IMO.

_Sir_Charles_
04-01-2012, 02:56 PM
There ya go. Welcome to the Redlegs Todd Frazier. I had a feeling this was going to happen. It was quite clear the Dusty was pretty ticked by the way Juan came into camp. And with Todd raking, more versitile and stuff...makes a ton of sense. The only downside is that we're short a lefty again.

Plus we get an arm. Best of luck to you Juan.

_Sir_Charles_
04-01-2012, 02:58 PM
I don't think this is an isolated move...I think it says something more about Bailey and or Leake.

I don't. I think it says they were ticked with Juan and this frees up the slot for Todd who they're higher on right now.

dougdirt
04-01-2012, 03:06 PM
Here is a fun question.... which number is higher this season for Juan Francisco in the Majors: Walks or home runs?

Vottomatic
04-01-2012, 03:07 PM
Other than versatility, I don't understand all the love for Frazier. He has never hit for high average at any level. Nor is he a pure power hitter. He's a utility guy at best.

reds1869
04-01-2012, 03:07 PM
On the surface I like this move. Frazier is a better option at 3rd and this seems to seal his place on the 25 man. Best wishes to Francisco.

Kc61
04-01-2012, 03:08 PM
I like selling high on Fransisco and opening up a spot for Frazier, but I'm always wary of trading for a Braves pitcher. I think Fransisco will have a nice little major league career along the lines of a Marcus Thames. He'll hit for power and start from time to time, but he'll never get on base enough to be a regular.

It's been commented today that the Reds are selling LOW on Francisco. Out of shape, injured, underwheliming spring. I don't see how they are selling high on him.

Maybe if they traded him in the off-season after his unbelievable play at third base last year and his 500 foot homer, maybe then it would be selling high.

As for Frazier, I just don't see any major league baseball team being as right handed as the Reds may now be. Votto, Bruce and 11 right handed hitters is bizarre and I still don't think it will happen.

If it does happen, the Reds will pay a price for the lack of balance. But I guess we'll know soon enough.

Blitz Dorsey
04-01-2012, 03:10 PM
I don't. I think it says they were ticked with Juan and this frees up the slot for Todd who they're higher on right now.

Exactly. Plus, the Reds probably got a better player in return than they originally thought was possible.

_Sir_Charles_
04-01-2012, 03:12 PM
Other than versatility, I don't understand all the love for Frazier. He has never hit for high average at any level. Nor is he a pure power hitter. He's a utility guy at best.

I disagree. I think he's viewed as a utility guy because that's how the Reds started grooming him about 2-3 years ago. I firmly believe that his numbers are down from where they would be if he would've gotten settled at a specific position (3rd is probably his best spot but he's probably most comfortable at short). He's been having to learn a new position every year (sometimes twice a year). That takes away from the time you have to work on your hitting. He's having to spend a TON of time during practice working on fielding as opposed to swinging the stick. It DOES make a difference IMO.

Vottomatic
04-01-2012, 03:13 PM
He's never swung the bat that well anyway, so why think it will change? Makes no sense to me.

He's overrated by Reds fans.

cinreds21
04-01-2012, 03:13 PM
I assumed that as Hoover was assigned to Louisville that he is not on the 40 man roster.

You assumed wrong. He was optioned to Louisville. He is on the 40.

757690
04-01-2012, 03:13 PM
Other than versatility, I don't understand all the love for Frazier. He has never hit for high average at any level. Nor is he a pure power hitter. He's a utility guy at best.

I think most agree he is a utility guy at best, but if he's a good utility guy, he's very valuable.

dougdirt
04-01-2012, 03:14 PM
He's never swung the bat that well anyway, so why think it will change? Makes no sense to me.

He's overrated by some Reds fans.
Had to fix that for you.

Edd Roush
04-01-2012, 03:19 PM
Here is a fun question.... which number is higher this season for Juan Francisco in the Majors: Walks or home runs?

Well, Juan has had more home runs than walks at every level since rookie ball, and major league pitchers are usually less erratic than rookie ballers. Give me home runs.

RedsManRick
04-01-2012, 03:19 PM
It's been commented today that the Reds are selling LOW on Francisco. Out of shape, injured, underwheliming spring. I don't see how they are selling high on him.

Maybe if they traded him in the off-season after his unbelievable play at third base last year and his 500 foot homer, maybe then it would be selling high.

As for Frazier, I just don't see any major league baseball team being as right handed as the Reds may now be. Votto, Bruce and 11 right handed hitters is bizarre and I still don't think it will happen.

If it does happen, the Reds will pay a price for the lack of balance. But I guess we'll know soon enough.

I think we fans often take too short term a view. I very much doubt that coming in out of shape and having an underwhelming spring had a significant affect on the way teams view him. In my book, it's selling high because the longer he spends in the majors, the clearer his limitations will be. Right now, teams can still dream on his potential. But I don't think he's got another step to take.

Spitball
04-01-2012, 03:23 PM
I imagine there were a lot of factors playing into this trade. Mostly, I believe Francisco's lack of options, Chipper Jones's injury, and Livan Hernandez signing with the Braves to a major league contract were factors 1-3.

If he'd had options, he'd still be a Red in my opinion.

_Sir_Charles_
04-01-2012, 03:24 PM
I imagine there were a lot of factors playing into this trade. Mostly, I believe Francisco's lack of options, Chipper Jones's injury, and Livan Hernandez signing with the Braves to a major league contract were factors 1-3.

If he'd had options, he'd still be a Red in my opinion.

Of this I have NO doubt.

Tony Cloninger
04-01-2012, 04:10 PM
He's never swung the bat that well anyway, so why think it will change? Makes no sense to me.

He's overrated by Reds fans.


So is Juan. If his attitude did not fit here.....then they figured they could replace him with someone better in the long run.

redsmetz
04-01-2012, 04:13 PM
From the Talking Chop site:

http://www.talkingchop.com/2012/4/1/2918082/braves-acquire-third-baseman-juan-francisco-from-reds-trade

Francisco became available in part because he is out of minor league options. In Hoover, the Braves give up a guy who could be a middle of the rotation workhorse or a reliable setup man in the bullpen. It is unclear how the Reds will use him.

Gallen5862
04-01-2012, 04:15 PM
How many options does Hoover have left?

klw
04-01-2012, 04:16 PM
Via Fay

http://cincinnati.com/blogs/reds/2012/04/01/reds-traded-francisco/


“We’re closer to breaking with the team,” Baker said. “It was a great opportunity for us. We added to our pool of bullpen guys we need or may need. We wish (Francisco) the best. I really was for the kid from the very beginning.

“Some of the things weren’t working out the way you want them to. Hopefully, he’ll find happiness and get it together in Atlanta. If things go right and go in the proper direction, he could be a force.”

Francisco has huge power, a plus arm and runs well for a big man.

“Talent has never been the issue here,” Baker said.

Francisco was out of options.

“If he had options, it would have been a much easier decision,” Baker said.

fearofpopvol1
04-01-2012, 04:22 PM
Limited tools, questionable durability and a small window to climb through on the current club. Any arm is a gamble, any Brave give away is as well, but it's a good fit, Braves have a power hole and an injured 3rd baseman, chances are the arm is not a pure throw away. Both teams had needs to fill, the Reds needed a slot to open and the Braves needed a body that was ready.

Nice trade for both sides IMO.

This is exactly how I feel. Francisco's power was something, but his other weaknesses will be very challenging to overcome in the future years. I don't think Hoover will be a stud, but I think he can be useful.

cinreds21
04-01-2012, 04:23 PM
How many options does Hoover have left?

All three.

reds44
04-01-2012, 04:24 PM
I'm confused as to why they sent him down. I like the trade, but would have liked to see Hoover start with the big team.

cinreds21
04-01-2012, 04:25 PM
They must like Chapman and Francis more.

Gallen5862
04-01-2012, 04:30 PM
Thanks Cinreds21. That is great that he has all his options. This really gives the Reds more flexability with him.

757690
04-01-2012, 04:47 PM
They must like Chapman and Francis more.

Or someone else.

Tom Servo
04-01-2012, 05:02 PM
I'd bet Hoover is one of the first relievers recalled from AAA as long as he pitches decently in Louisville.

wlf WV
04-01-2012, 05:25 PM
Me,I'm just glad Walt traded one guy for a pitcher.:)

mth123
04-01-2012, 05:26 PM
The more I study this, the less I like it. Francisco has impact potential and seemed a more likely heir for Rolen to me. Frazier is more the heir to Cairo. That's OK, but he had an option and didn't exactly tear up AAA last year. This decision could have been postponed until JF had more of a chance. Hoover fits in well with the likes of Ondrusek, Fisher, Lecure, Carroll, Brackman et al. Mediocre minor league starters who are probably looking at a future of being a fringe reliever. Maybe the Reds can flip him to San Diego or Seattle, where all those Fly Balls won't be such an issue, in exchange for something they can actually use. Hoover, Janish and another kid for Brad Boxberger.;)

KoryMac5
04-01-2012, 05:55 PM
Sounds like Juan may have been looking for a change of scenery. That last piece by Fay elluded to some tension between the Reds and Juan. Don't love the trade but I really didn't care for the Massett for Griffey deal either. Hopefully Hoover is more Nick and less Maloney.

757690
04-01-2012, 06:12 PM
The more I study this, the less I like it. Francisco has impact potential and seemed a more likely heir for Rolen to me. Frazier is more the heir to Cairo. That's OK, but he had an option and didn't exactly tear up AAA last year. This decision could have been postponed until JF had more of a chance. Hoover fits in well with the likes of Ondrusek, Fisher, Lecure, Carroll, Brackman et al. Mediocre minor league starters who are probably looking at a future of being a fringe reliever. Maybe the Reds can flip him to San Diego or Seattle, where all those Fly Balls won't be such an issue, in exchange for something they can actually use. Hoover, Janish and another kid for Brad Boxberger.;)

Personally, I saw Francisco as the heir to Willie Green ;)

dfs
04-01-2012, 06:13 PM
Dusty never seemed to like Juan.

Francisco had several opportunities in the last couple of years to rack up serious playing time and establish himself as a major league regular. It's not exactly like Scott Rolen has been playing all 9 inninge of 162 games.

Each time Francisco either was or got hurt.

Out of options, he reports to spring training out of shape and goes to the trainer and says he's hurt.......

I don't much mind a manager that doesn't care for a player like that.

camisadelgolf
04-01-2012, 06:15 PM
I like selling high on Fransisco and opening up a spot for Frazier, but I'm always wary of trading for a Braves pitcher. I think Fransisco will have a nice little major league career along the lines of a Marcus Thames. He'll hit for power and start from time to time, but he'll never get on base enough to be a regular.
I hear this said a lot, but historically--well, for the past ~20 years or so--the Reds have gotten the better end of deals from the Braves, even when including deals involving pitchers.

I(heart)Freel
04-01-2012, 06:33 PM
Personally, I saw Francisco as the heir to Willie Green ;)

I saw Juan as the heir to Edwin Encarnacion and he similarly fell out of favor not through talent but through attitude/preparation/work ethic.

Let someone else shake that bottle and hope for some champagne to hit the glass. That seems to Walt's MO of late. Trade high risk/high reward for steady-Eddy, known commodities even if the ceiling is much smaller.

fearofpopvol1
04-01-2012, 06:57 PM
I hear this said a lot, but historically--well, for the past ~20 years or so--the Reds have gotten the better end of deals from the Braves, even when including deals involving pitchers.

Adam Wainwright was a Braves pitcher as well.

Not to mention, I feel like it's a new era in Atlanta. There have been changes to the organization, so I don't know how much weight I'd put into this either.

Dom Heffner
04-01-2012, 08:09 PM
I hear this said a lot, but historically--well, for the past ~20 years or so--the Reds have gotten the better end of deals from the Braves, even when including deals involving pitchers.

Rick Mahler was worth getting so we didn't have to see his Pedro Martinez act everytime we faced him. Goodness he was a Reds killer.

corkedbat
04-01-2012, 08:16 PM
Never a big fan of JF longterm. I was alright with him as a caddy for Rolen and LH hitter on the bench. I don't see him as a long range answer at third base. I just think that major league pitchers will soon have a full book on him and I believe he will make it easy on them by his pitch selection. Certainly not sold on him defensively either.

Not sure why Hoover is such an extreme flyball pitcher - especially with a pretty decent slider. That does worry me a bit, but he is more than I expected for Juan. Another bright side to this is the fact that the Reds won't just hand the job to JF, post-Rolen, but will instead have to find a legit 3B.

Sea Ray
04-01-2012, 09:53 PM
Stuff is certainly better, but his extreme fly ball tendencies are scary. For 2010 and 2011, his combined groundball rate is just under 30%.

Would it be fair to say, it sounds like the Braves traded us another Matt Belisle?

I think the Reds made the determination than JF was not a bench player. He wouldn't do well in the role of pinch hitter and spot starter. Not every player can do that. He was out of options so they had to move him. His weight and his free swinging bothered me as it wasn't getting any better. If he turns into Terry Pendleton in Atl, more power to them

oneupper
04-01-2012, 09:54 PM
Francisco was a strange case. Maybe he'll put it together.
Regardless, now the team is in dire need of LH bats.

Sea Ray
04-01-2012, 10:22 PM
Regardless, now the team is in dire need of LH bats.

No question. We've been in need of LH bats and LH arms for awhile now. Let's hope Walt brings in a Michael Tucker type guy sooner rather than later

Blitz Dorsey
04-01-2012, 10:58 PM
If the Reds are still in the race come late June or July, I'm sure Walt will have no problem adding a left-handed bat for the stretch run.

In regards to the Francisco-for-Hoover trade, it seems RedsZone is nearly unanimous that it was a good deal for the Reds. Perhaps a good deal for both teams, but I haven't heard one person that seems upset about it. That's a rarity these days, even for a somewhat minor trade.

IslandRed
04-01-2012, 11:32 PM
Not to mention, I feel like it's a new era in Atlanta. There have been changes to the organization, so I don't know how much weight I'd put into this either.

Yep. Trading with Schuerholz was one thing. Frank Wren and his boys scare me a lot less.

camisadelgolf
04-01-2012, 11:41 PM
I was worried about losing Francisco on waivers and not getting anything for him but $10,000 or whatever it is. Instead, the Reds got a legitimate prospect. Sure, he's probably not going to end up much more than a middle reliever, but Juan Francisco's inability to take a walk plus his lackluster defense meant he had very little to offer the Reds. Sure, he'd be a nice left-handed bat off the bench, but his lack of versatility really hurt his value. I love this trade just because the Reds received a bit more than I ever expected.

On another note, I was surprised when the Reds added him to the 40-man roster a few years ago, and I can't help but wonder if they would've been better off waiting one more year before adding him.

dougdirt
04-01-2012, 11:45 PM
I was worried about losing Francisco on waivers and not getting anything for him but $10,000 or whatever it is. Instead, the Reds got a legitimate prospect. Sure, he's probably not going to end up much more than a middle reliever, but Juan Francisco's inability to take a walk plus his lackluster defense meant he had very little to offer the Reds. Sure, he'd be a nice left-handed bat off the bench, but his lack of versatility really hurt his value. I love this trade just because the Reds received a bit more than I ever expected.

On another note, I was surprised when the Reds added him to the 40-man roster a few years ago, and I can't help but wonder if they would've been better off waiting one more year before adding him.

Two things.... first, I think both guys have value, but it is limited. Hoover because he is likely to be a reliever and well, 60-70 innings in itself is just limiting. Francisco, as you noted, has issues on both sides of the ball that make him suspect to playing day in and day out, but if he is used correctly there is some value to be had with him. Trading one limited player for another makes sense when you each need the other type of guy.

As for the second thing, did the Reds add him to the 40 man before they had to? I thought he was added in September one year when he was going to have to be added that December anyways, so it didn't actually waste a year. Is that wrong?

Will M
04-02-2012, 12:28 AM
FYI - Braves fans take on the trade.
http://www.braves-nation.com/forums/showthread.php?t=26636


It seems to me that the Reds braintrust wanted Frazier on the team even though it would mean losing a LH bat on the 25 man roster & needing to deal Francisco who couldn't be sent to AAA. That says they really like Frazier over Francisco. We have been waiting a while to see who the Reds would pick to take over after Rolen and it looks like Frazier is the guy to get the opportunity.

I am ok with this deal. I have my doubts that Francisco can be successful in the bigs. I think we likely got good value in trading with the Braves. They had young pitching depth & needed help at 3B. Really can't ask for a better trading partner if we want to deal Francisco.

pedro
04-02-2012, 12:46 AM
The game's called "baseball", not "slugging". Much rather have Frazier on the roster IMO. Good trade.

VR
04-02-2012, 01:23 AM
I was optimistic about JF...until I saw him try to hit MLB pitching.

Next.

Blitz Dorsey
04-02-2012, 02:57 AM
The game's called "baseball", not "slugging". Much rather have Frazier on the roster IMO. Good trade.

Ha, well said Pedro, well said.

GAC
04-02-2012, 06:48 AM
I doubt any of the Reds brass cared for the fact that he came to spring training out shape and overweight.

That'll do it every time.

http://cincinnati.reds.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20120401&content_id=27806856&vkey=news_cin&c_id=cin


Francisco, 24, also did not endear himself to the Reds for, among other things, showing up to camp overweight and failing to properly rehabilitate a right calf injury over the winter.

redsfan30
04-02-2012, 12:02 PM
The game's called "baseball", not "slugging". Much rather have Frazier on the roster IMO. Good trade.

This.

If there is ever a day where I find myself wishing Juan Fransisco were still on this roster I will be shocked.

MikeS21
04-02-2012, 02:16 PM
So it seems that Hoover had some success starting. John Sickles profiled him as a #3-#4 starter with decent velocity.

Couldn't the Reds ease him into the rotation at some point? While I realize some pitchers are better suited for the bullpen, I never understood sending a pitcher to the bullpen, when they have shown some success at starting.

PuffyPig
04-02-2012, 02:57 PM
Couldn't the Reds ease him into the rotation at some point? While I realize some pitchers are better suited for the bullpen, I never understood sending a pitcher to the bullpen, when they have shown some success at starting.

He might start out of the bullpen becuase of need and his success there.

He could convert back to a starter next year.

Benihana
04-02-2012, 03:11 PM
He might start out of the bullpen becuase of need and his success there.

He could convert back to a starter next year.

Or maybe he'll be on the Chapman "plan" :rolleyes:

Ron Madden
04-02-2012, 05:00 PM
I don't think this does Chapmans development or long term future any good.

REDREAD
04-02-2012, 05:51 PM
I could see Hoover being bullpen insurance this year.. much like many of the other guys (brackman, etc) that they picked up over the winter.

If Hoover has 3 options left, he's backup at SP/RP for the next 3 years.. That's probably more valuable than an out of options Franscico would've been, especially since the Reds seemed to have soured on him.

RedlegJake
04-03-2012, 10:49 AM
I like Hoover, more as a good reliever than a possible starter but this kid can pitch pretty well. If he had one real "out" pitch to go with his stuff he'd be an ace. Seriously, if just one of his pitches edged up a notch he'd be a star - he has the control, and the temperament, its simply a case that nothing he throws is so devastating that it blows hitters away - everything is just "good" nothing is "wow". That says middle reliever to me and that isn't bad. That's a guy who can reliably go through a lineup one time and on any given night and be very effective - its the second time through that he'll start getting knocked up once they'd drawn a bead on his velocity and movement. That's a solid, "get you from the 5th-6th to the eighth inning set up man" kind of reliever that can take the middle innings away from the opposing clubs reliably and save many a five inning job by a short starter. That's the role I see for Hoover and I think he's likely to be better at it than anyone on the Reds roster.

With a couple of the injuries in the pen I don't see how anyone can look at Hoover's acquisition and not see a bullpen role inked in for him this year. Whatever they do - I love the trade. I much prefer Frazier to Francisco, especially after Francisco showed me how committed he was to baseball showing up fat and out of shape.

Tom Servo
09-13-2012, 10:45 PM
http://i.imgur.com/zEyrE.png

http://i.imgur.com/rbNrZ.png

So on this off day, how about some love for Walt? :beerme:

Kc61
09-13-2012, 11:02 PM
One guy has 23 outings, the other has under 200 PAs. And Francisco has a 95 OPS+, not terrible, playing sporadically.

Tad premature on this one, Tom. Hoover certainly looks good but let's give it some time.

Tom Servo
09-13-2012, 11:06 PM
One guy has 23 outings, the other has under 200 PAs. And Francisco has a 95 OPS+, not terrible, playing sporadically.

Tad premature on this one, Tom. Hoover certainly looks good but let's give it some time.
I'm certainly not ready to call it a steal, but for 2012, I'd say it's been a success. We've gotten an arm that has contributed to our pen well, and it helped pave the way for Frazier.

757690
09-13-2012, 11:12 PM
I'm certainly not ready to call it a steal, but for 2012, I'd say it's been a success. We've gotten an arm that has contributed to our pen well, and it helped pave the way for Frazier.

The last part is the key. Hoover is nice, but the Reds had a redundancy backing up third, and they seemed to have picked the right one to trade.

Slyder
09-13-2012, 11:13 PM
http://i.imgur.com/zEyrE.png

http://i.imgur.com/rbNrZ.png

So on this off day, how about some love for Walt? :beerme:

I think the big part of this is that the Reds KEPT Frazier more so than it was trading Francisco for Hoover. Its a case of the Reds picked their horse and rode it. How many threads thought that Frazier was trade bait the last year or so? I remember a number of times.

PuffyPig
09-13-2012, 11:14 PM
One guy has 23 outings, the other has under 200 PAs. And Francisco has a 95 OPS+, not terrible, playing sporadically.

Tad premature on this one, Tom. Hoover certainly looks good but let's give it some time.

If we had kept Francisco it would have had to be on the major league roster,and would have kept Frazier in the minors.

Francisco had less than zero value to us this year. His only value was what he could bring in a trade.

Great trade.

Kc61
09-13-2012, 11:24 PM
If we had kept Francisco it would have had to be on the major league roster,and would have kept Frazier in the minors.

Francisco had less than zero value to us this year. His only value was what he could bring in a trade.

Great trade.

Talk to me in five years. Don't know how one evaluates a trade in less than a season.

It worked out so far, that's the best you can say. That's important, sure but it's not conclusive.

We'll see Francsico's role and how he does with the Braves after Chipper retires.

PuffyPig
09-13-2012, 11:33 PM
Talk to me in five years. Don't know how one evaluates a trade in less than a season.

It worked out so far, that's the best you can say. That's important, sure but it's not conclusive.

We'll see Francsico's role and how he does with the Braves after Chipper retires.

You missed my point.

There's no way the Reds should have kept Francisco on the roster at the expense of Frazier.

Francisco had to be traded becuase we had better personal to play.

Kc61
09-13-2012, 11:38 PM
You missed my point.

There's no way the Reds should have kept Francisco on the roster at the expense of Frazier.

Francisco had to be traded becuase we had better personal to play.

I didn't miss the point, it's still premature.

Over time we'll see how Francisco does, how Frazier does, how Hoover does. It may well be that you're right.

But I wouldn't judge it yet. Francisco may get a big opportunity with Chipper retiring.

Wouldn't judge a trade of young players based on less than a season.

M2
09-13-2012, 11:42 PM
Francisco is never going to find first base. Hoover a quality arm for the bullpen. Trade your tragically flawed coulda-shoulda-wouldas for someone useful as often as possible.

Kc61
09-13-2012, 11:48 PM
Francisco is never going to find first base. Hoover a quality arm for the bullpen. Trade your tragically flawed coulda-shoulda-wouldas for someone useful as often as possible.

You guys can tell the future better than me.

I'll wait and see.

AtomicDumpling
09-13-2012, 11:56 PM
I am very impressed with Hoover. Francisco is still very young, has a ton of power in his left-handed bat and has a good chance to end up being a good player and I would like to have him back with the Reds, but so far the Reds got the better end of the deal.

I wonder if the Braves would have been willing to trade Hoover for Frazier? Maybe they asked for Frazier but Jocketty said "Nope, its Francisco or no deal." Maybe Francisco is the guy the Braves preferred all along. Who knows? In hindsight it is obvious that Frazier is better than Francisco, but it wasn't so obvious back when the trade was made. Frazier wasn't even in the major leagues yet.

Caveat Emperor
09-13-2012, 11:58 PM
You guys can tell the future better than me.

I'll wait and see.

I'll tell you the future:

Francisco will hit some really, really long fly balls while making lots of outs.

I'm very happy it'll be in some other uniform.

PuffyPig
09-13-2012, 11:58 PM
I am very impressed with Hoover. Francisco is still very young, has a ton of power in his left-handed bat and has a good chance to end up being a good player and I would like to have him back with the Reds, but so far the Reds got the better end of the deal.

I wonder if the Braves would have been willing to trade Hoover for Frazier? Maybe they asked for Frazier but Jocketty said "Nope, its Francisco or no deal." Maybe Francisco is the guy the Braves preferred all along. Who knows? In hindsight it is obvious that Frazier is better than Francisco, but it wasn't so obvious back when the trade was made. Frazier wasn't even in the major leagues yet.

Frazier had options left, Francisco did not. That's the only reason he was availalble.

PuffyPig
09-14-2012, 12:02 AM
I didn't miss the point, it's still premature.

Over time we'll see how Francisco does, how Frazier does, how Hoover does. It may well be that you're right.

But I wouldn't judge it yet. Francisco may get a big opportunity with Chipper retiring.

Wouldn't judge a trade of young players based on less than a season.

The point you missed is that Francisco was out of options, was not a fit for our roster, and needed to be traded for whatever Walt could get.

Everyone knew that.

The fact Walt got any warm body for him was good.

The fact he might have gotten our future closer is amazing.

Kc61
09-14-2012, 12:20 AM
The point you missed is that Francisco was out of options, was not a fit for our roster, and needed to be traded for whatever Walt could get.

Everyone knew that.

The fact Walt got any warm body for him was good.

The fact he might have gotten our future closer is amazing.

Not an accurate description of what happened at all, but I'm not going to debate with someone so nasty in tone.

Brutus
09-14-2012, 12:21 AM
There are a lot of Franciscos that have proven themselves as cautionary tales throughout the course of minor league baseball.

I'll not lose any sleep over the very small chance he actually learns there's a life outside the batter's box :)

The Operator
09-14-2012, 12:24 AM
There are a lot of Franciscos that have proven themselves as cautionary tales throughout the course of minor league baseball.

I'll not lose any sleep over the very small chance he actually learns there's a life outside the batter's box :)Wily Mo Pena comes to mind. And if my memory serves me right Wily Mo had quite a bit MORE success at the big league level early on than Francisco has.

Kc61
09-14-2012, 12:41 AM
Wily Mo Pena comes to mind. And if my memory serves me right Wily Mo had quite a bit MORE success at the big league level early on than Francisco has.

Braves seem reasonably happy with Francisco according to a recent press report in August. He admits he's still not in the best shape and claims he's committed to getting there. He's played quite a bit in a reserve role.

Of course, he's not WMP because Francisco is a lefty hitter and as a platoon guy will play far more often. WMP was a righty with a big split who really was only useful against lefties.

Francisco's big challenge is learning to hit lefties better. If he doesn't, he'll be a platooner which limits him.

Still, I wouldn't be surprised to see him break out with a big home run season in the next few years.

Todd Frazier seems like a more sound hitter at this point, both have defensive issues, but I do think Francisco can ultimately be more of an impact hitter - possibly. As for Hoover, he's looked great so far but it's much too early to reach final conclusions on this trade.

Patrick Bateman
09-14-2012, 12:42 AM
Not an accurate description of what happened at all, but I'm not going to debate with someone so nasty in tone.

Tone or not, that's exactly how I remember things going down. A typical late spring training move in a roster crunch for a team with 3 third basemen. We could never viably keep all 3.

Kc61
09-14-2012, 12:51 AM
Tone or not, that's exactly how I remember things going down. A typical late spring training move in a roster crunch for a team with 3 third basemen. We could never viably keep all 3.

It's just not what happened. It wasn't a typical roster crunch. Nor was Francisco a poor fit, as the earlier post said.

Francisco was a very good fit for the Reds, had been in their plans in 2011 (but got injured) and was in their plans in 2012. They have said as much, he was a needed lefty bat, played third a position of need.

But he came in to camp overweight and didn't rehab his injury well. So he fell out of favor with the Reds.

Nobody knows if they would have kept him if he had options. Seemed to me they were fed up with him because of his failure to get in shape.

They didn't trade him in a roster crunch, which implies it was trade him or waive him. The Braves were happy to get him, and have said as much, and gave up a pretty good prospect to get him.

Nor was Frazier his direct replacement. JF was traded. Frazier went to AAA. Injuries brought Frazier back and to his credit he made good.

Francisco was not some cast off but a pretty valuable commodity who fell out of favor with the Reds. Walt got a good return for him because he had value. He still could have a good future because he has some great attributes. He does have some deficiencies to overcome, maybe he will, maybe he won't.

Blitz Dorsey
09-14-2012, 01:05 AM
Thinking about this particular trade makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside.

Brutus
09-14-2012, 01:47 AM
It's just not what happened. It wasn't a typical roster crunch. Nor was Francisco a poor fit, as the earlier post said.

Francisco was a very good fit for the Reds, had been in their plans in 2011 (but got injured) and was in their plans in 2012. They have said as much, he was a needed lefty bat, played third a position of need.

But he came in to camp overweight and didn't rehab his injury well. So he fell out of favor with the Reds.

Nobody knows if they would have kept him if he had options. Seemed to me they were fed up with him because of his failure to get in shape.

They didn't trade him in a roster crunch, which implies it was trade him or waive him. The Braves were happy to get him, and have said as much, and gave up a pretty good prospect to get him.

Nor was Frazier his direct replacement. JF was traded. Frazier went to AAA. Injuries brought Frazier back and to his credit he made good.

Francisco was not some cast off but a pretty valuable commodity who fell out of favor with the Reds. Walt got a good return for him because he had value. He still could have a good future because he has some great attributes. He does have some deficiencies to overcome, maybe he will, maybe he won't.

Francisco wasn't a fit for Cincinnati. The Reds were looking for versatile, defensive players and he didn't fit the bill. And with Frazier there, it made no sense to keep Francisco around.

His career .309 OBP certainly doesn't help matters either.

WVRedsFan
09-14-2012, 01:56 AM
Hoover is a find, no doubt and maybe a future closer, but on a team badly in need of offense, regardless of popular opinion, a .309 OBP is mighty fine. With Rolen and Frazier around, Francisco was expendable. This will all play out in time. If Rolen retires, we might be rethinking this. But, it was a good deal.

mth123
09-14-2012, 05:28 AM
I have to say that I was against the deal at the time but think its worked out great so far. I remember it more the way KC describes than what others are saying. The Reds could have used a lefty bat and the lack of one has been a problem most of the year. Frazier has far exceeded expectations and the Reds would probably not be where they are without him producing in a big way when Rolen and Votto went down. Hoover looks promising, but judging a young pitcher on such few major league innings is pretty premature. I hope he becomes the late inning guy he looks to be and its not just a "new to the big leagues" thing. I was pretty skeptical at the time of the deal. Glad I was wrong.

Good deal by Walt. Kudos to him. But lets not pretend that it couldn't change in the future as Francisco matures. I wish there was a way the Reds could have added Hoover, kept Frazier and still had Francisco. Its nice that the Reds have enough talent to deal off guys for promising youngsters instead of looking for retrreads to fill the roster.

redsmetz
09-14-2012, 06:13 AM
From the Talking Chop site:

http://www.talkingchop.com/2012/4/1/2918082/braves-acquire-third-baseman-juan-francisco-from-reds-trade

Francisco became available in part because he is out of minor league options. In Hoover, the Braves give up a guy who could be a middle of the rotation workhorse or a reliable setup man in the bullpen. It is unclear how the Reds will use him.

Here was some analysis at the time from an Atlanta source.

redsmetz
09-14-2012, 06:15 AM
Here is a fun question.... which number is higher this season for Juan Francisco in the Majors: Walks or home runs?

With a few weeks left in the season, walks are higher than HR's - just a slight difference, so there's still time: 9 home runs versus 11 walks.

Raisor
09-14-2012, 07:22 AM
With those numbers Juan could be leading off for the Reds

lidspinner
09-14-2012, 08:09 AM
kc....maybe I am wrong but I thought I read several articles, or at least more than 1 article claiming that Juan was not a fit for the Reds at 3rd....they were looking more for a guy with a defensive upside and Juan is not known for his defense, never has been....if that was the case they would have just kept Edwin and let him be the role player until Rolen moved on.....I could be wrong and I wont swear to reading the articles, but I swear I thought Juan pretty much worked his own way out of favor with the Reds.....I dont think he was ever in the long term plans once 2011 was here, maybe before that he was....

again, I could very well be wrong and I will gladly say as much if I cannot find any proof, but Juan was pretty much dead man walking on this club as far as I could tell....it was just a matter of time until Walt could find a taker.

Kc61
09-14-2012, 08:35 AM
kc....maybe I am wrong but I thought I read several articles, or at least more than 1 article claiming that Juan was not a fit for the Reds at 3rd....they were looking more for a guy with a defensive upside and Juan is not known for his defense, never has been....if that was the case they would have just kept Edwin and let him be the role player until Rolen moved on.....I could be wrong and I wont swear to reading the articles, but I swear I thought Juan pretty much worked his own way out of favor with the Reds.....I dont think he was ever in the long term plans once 2011 was here, maybe before that he was....

again, I could very well be wrong and I will gladly say as much if I cannot find any proof, but Juan was pretty much dead man walking on this club as far as I could tell....it was just a matter of time until Walt could find a taker.

The main thrust of all the press at the time, comments from Dusty, etc. was that Francisco was overweight, hadn't rehabbed his injury from 2011, and it was clear that the Reds were upset with him for that. IMO that was the key reason he was traded.

He did have defensive upside with his throwing arm, Frazier was not viewed as a regular third baseman back then, JF's lefty bat fit the Reds bench very well.

The main point, though, is that Walt didn't get gold for garbage. Francisco was (and probably is) a reasonably valuable young player who Atlanta WANTED given Chipper's age and impending retirement. It was a fair trade which, this year, worked out for the Reds quite well.

But I'm not reaching a final conclusion on the deal just yet. I have always thought Juan was capable of some pretty good things and I'll wait a few years before deciding whether it was ultimately such a great trade.

PuffyPig
09-14-2012, 08:56 AM
Not an accurate description of what happened at all, but I'm not going to debate with someone so nasty in tone.

I'm sorry if my "tone" came off badly, though I'm unsure how tone can be conveyed on written word.

My main point as been Francisco was out of options. You had not, until later, dealt with that point.

Even though Francisco had undoubtedly fallen out of favor with the Reds, I doubt he would have been traded if he still had remaining options. He would simply have been sent to the minors.

You can say he didn't make the Reds becuase of his play. But he was likely traded becuase he was out of options.

At the end of spring training, players are traded all the time, especially ones who are out of options. And the return is often not that great. I thought walt did well to get someone with as much upside as Hoover.

And yes, Francisco may still have a decent career. But that will not, in my mind, change the outcome of this trade, which must be, in the Reds eyes, be judged not in what they gave up ( a player that had to be traded), but on what they got.

Look at what the Indians managed to get for Brandon Phillips, a player in the exact same situation as Francisco. They got Jeff Stevens, and Phillips was rated a much better prospect than Francisco, and played a premium position. And you would have thought that Phillips could easily have been kept by the Indians as a back up middle infielder at worse. Once a team decides to move a player out of options at the end of April, his trade value decreases rapidly. That's the reason I think Walt did such a good job. He got decent value for a asset that was rapidly decreasing to zero value for the Reds. And he targetted the team who had the greatest need for that player.

redsmetz
09-14-2012, 09:08 AM
Look at what the Indians managed to get for Brandon Phillips, a player in the exact same situation as Francisco. They got Jeff Stevens, and Phillips was rated a much better prospect than Francisco, and played a premium position. And you would have thought that Phillips could easily have been kept by the Indians as a back up middle infielder at worse. Once a team decides to move a player out of options at the end of April, his trade value decreases rapidly. That's the reason I think Walt did such a good job. He got decent value for a asset that was rapidly decreasing to zero value for the Reds. And he targeted the team who had the greatest need for that player.

I had to go looking for news from around the time of the Phillips trade, but the Indians move was also about them giving up on Phillips. Out of options, they DFA'ed him and the Reds made the trade.

Here's a little blog piece from the time, indicating that Brandon had lost some luster in the previous year. Ironically the blog listing was titled "Brandon Phillips, Sean Marshall, Cincinnati Reds" - prescient, no?



Talk about under the radar–I only heard about this through a Google News search. But the Reds made an outstanding move, trading “cash or a player to be named later” for Indians 2B Brandon Phillips. Phillips, who was at the time of the Expos’ awful Bartolo Calon rental the biggest prospect in the deal (which included Grady Sizemore and Cliff Lee) was at the time a great combination of tools and performance, posting a .327/.380/.506 mark as a 21-year-old in AA and holding his own at AAA. He was handed the 2B job in Spring Training, 2003, and he proceeded to be probably the worst player in the majors that year, hitting an excruciating .208/.242/.311 over 370 at-bats before he received a mercy demotion to AAA. He then proceeded to lose a lot of luster in the minor leagues, enough that now–at 25–the Indians can trade him for roster space.

First pitch just thrown–Marshall looks like a lefty soft-tosser… uh oh.

[Source: http://getupbaby.net/?cat=110]

[An aside, the Marshall comment was a live comment for that day's Cubs game that day versus the Cardinals. Marshall started, making his ML debut, but only went four and a third, giving up four runs. Cubs came back to win with ex-Red Scot Williamson getting the win. I forgot that Dusty was Marshall's first manager http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/CHN/CHN200604090.shtml]

Kc61
09-14-2012, 09:58 AM
My last point on JF for now.

My argument is that Francsico was not a near-waiver wire dump of a player that magically brought Walt gold in return. I think it was a fair baseball trade. The Reds had soured on the guy, Atlanta had a need at third. Hoover was deemed fair trade bait for him.

It worked out well for the Reds this year, but I don't see the Braves complaining, Francisco has a 95 OPS+ this year (Heisey range) and has a positive UZR and UZR/150 rating this year.

I think JF will get better with more playing time. In the minors, as his seasons progressed, his numbers tended to improve markedly. I just think that declarations of success on this deal are premature, although it worked out well for the Reds this season.

As for Hoover, I do commend Walt for taking such interest in the bullpen this year. As I've said many times, there's nothing worse than skimping on the bullpen. Repeated late innings losses are poison to a team and the Reds don't have that problem.

REDREAD
09-14-2012, 10:23 AM
You missed my point.

There's no way the Reds should have kept Francisco on the roster at the expense of Frazier.

Francisco had to be traded becuase we had better personal to play.

IIRC, Franscisco was also out of options. Given the Reds' situation (It appeared that Franscisco was not "fitting in" to the Reds system), it was pretty imperative to trade Franscisco in the spring. I think it was great to get a contributing ML player in return. Every team in baseball knew the Reds wanted to get rid of JF.. Every team in baseball knew that JF was a defensive liablity that was likely to be OBP challenged.
Great trade. Looks like the Braves underestimated Hoover.

REDREAD
09-14-2012, 10:36 AM
My last point on JF for now.

My argument is that Francsico was not a near-waiver wire dump of a player that magically brought Walt gold in return. I think it was a fair baseball trade. The Reds had soured on the guy, Atlanta had a need at third. Hoover was deemed fair trade bait for him.
.

Well, I agree with you that JF wasn't exactly garbage, and Atlanta has gotten some use out of him. JF may improve.

I think I remember reading at the time, Atlanta didn't exactly value Hoover highly (maybe that was just Atlanta message board talk?) That the Braves were so loaded with minor league pitching, he was expendable? In any event, Walt got a useful bullpen arm for a guy that he couldn't keep on the roster.
That's worthy of praise. When you look around, you see some contenders trading very good talent for relievers that aren't even slated to close/set up.
I think the Reds could trade Hoover today for a better prospect than JF if they chose to..

I guess I look at this trade more from the Reds' perspective than Altanta's ..
I'm glad Atlanta is happy with JF. But even if JF becomes a 30 HR, 100 RBI guy there in 4 years, I'm not going to lose sleep over this trade.
Phillips is kind of a good analogy. He was not a good fit in Cleveland. Would've probably never flourished there. JF probably needed a new start too.
Edwin E needed several new starts :)

Chip R
09-14-2012, 12:09 PM
I really like Hoover. I liked Francisco too. I was not terribly happy to see him leave because it gave us Rolen insurance and a LH bat off the bench. But he's gone and Hoover is here. And I really like Hoover.

Blitz Dorsey
09-14-2012, 12:11 PM
I have to say that I was against the deal at the time but think its worked out great so far. I remember it more the way KC describes than what others are saying. The Reds could have used a lefty bat and the lack of one has been a problem most of the year. Frazier has far exceeded expectations and the Reds would probably not be where they are without him producing in a big way when Rolen and Votto went down. Hoover looks promising, but judging a young pitcher on such few major league innings is pretty premature. I hope he becomes the late inning guy he looks to be and its not just a "new to the big leagues" thing. I was pretty skeptical at the time of the deal. Glad I was wrong.

Good deal by Walt. Kudos to him. But lets not pretend that it couldn't change in the future as Francisco matures. I wish there was a way the Reds could have added Hoover, kept Frazier and still had Francisco. Its nice that the Reds have enough talent to deal off guys for promising youngsters instead of looking for retrreads to fill the roster.

I completely agree with the bolded part, but Hoover also put up lights-out-good numbers at Louisville this season. He's had an incredible season overall. Could things change? Yes. But looking at it right now, the Reds are feeling great about the way that deal worked out.

JJ Hoover's 2012 statistics: Louisville: 4-0, 1.22 ERA, 37 IP, 15 H, 55 K, 12 BB, 13 saves. Major League numbers: 1-0, 2.08 ERA, 26 IP, 15 H, 28 K, 10 BB, 1 save.

Take a close look at those Louisville numbers. Wow.

M2
09-14-2012, 12:18 PM
Francisco was a very good fit for the Reds, had been in their plans in 2011 (but got injured) and was in their plans in 2012. They have said as much, he was a needed lefty bat, played third a position of need.

He was third on the 3B depth chart and the Reds have been more than fine there this season. Plus, hitting LH doesn't count for much when it's attached to a sub-.300 OB. Willie Harris hits LH too and amply demonstrated there's no magic in that. I'm much happier with Xavier Paul lurking on the bench.

Francisco is a Willie Greene wannabe. Getting a legit pitcher for him was a steal.

Kc61
09-14-2012, 12:41 PM
He was third on the 3B depth chart and the Reds have been more than fine there this season. Plus, hitting LH doesn't count for much when it's attached to a sub-.300 OB. Willie Harris hits LH too and amply demonstrated there's no magic in that. I'm much happier with Xavier Paul lurking on the bench.

Francisco is a Willie Greene wannabe. Getting a legit pitcher for him was a steal.

Francisco's lifetime line against RHP is .279 (BA)/.328 (OBP)/.498 (SLG)/.826 (OPS).

Hitting left handed often yields good results against righty pitching, which has been an area of need for the Reds for some time.

westofyou
09-14-2012, 12:53 PM
Francisco's lifetime line against RHP is .279 (BA)/.328 (OBP)/.498 (SLG)/.826 (OPS).

Hitting left handed often yields good results against righty pitching, which has been an area of need for the Reds for some time.
Then carry an OF, not a tweener who can't fulfill other skill sets (fielding more than one position, base running) I prefer my LH bench bats to be multi dimensional, O don't see Francisco that way and I think the Reds saw him as a bad fit for the team at this time.

M2
09-14-2012, 01:04 PM
Then carry an OF, not a tweener who can't fulfill other skill sets (fielding more than one position, base running) I prefer my LH bench bats to be multi dimensional, O don't see Francisco that way and I think the Reds saw him as a bad fit for the team at this time.

Exactly. Plus, I'm guessing the Reds were sour on his ability to do much at the plate if he gets fed a steady diet of breaking pitches.

Scrap Irony
09-14-2012, 01:46 PM
Shouldn't the emergence of Frazier factor into this as well? He's not a part of the Reds' plans at all if Francisco isn't dealt, as the portly 3B blocked his path and cast a large shadow on the future of the position.

Were it not for the deal, Frazier likely would have played 3B in Louisville this year.

If, then, the deal itself is part of a larger set of moves (and you can argue that it most certainly was), Hoover and the major league production of Frazier is a clear win for Cincinnati.

Atlanta won as well, as they now have a future 3B (or at least the LH part of a platoon) that looks to be at or near league average production levels very cheaply. Too, Atlanta's pen hasn't been great this season. They could have used Hoover. Because he wasn't there, the Braves chose to use Livan Hernandez, Anthony Varvaro, and Miguel Batista, among others. Some have done very, very well; others (like the ones mentions above), notsomuch. The balance is probably a league average guy-- and Hoover's much more than that this season.

In short, it's a win-win deal in which the Reds won more than the Bravos.

Rojo
09-14-2012, 04:13 PM
Francisco might throw up some Tony Armas-like seasons. Might.

Overall, that trade was a piece of a larger mission. Walt took a bunch of tweeners, suspects, four-A's and turned them into quality arms.

Sappelt, Alonso, Wood, Francisco, Volquez, Janish became Latos, Hoover, Marshall and Redmond.

The only guy I'd really want back is Grandal.

reds44
09-14-2012, 04:23 PM
Don't think I'd call Redmond a quality arm. Not even sure you can call Hoover that yet.

bucksfan2
09-14-2012, 04:24 PM
Shouldn't the emergence of Frazier factor into this as well? He's not a part of the Reds' plans at all if Francisco isn't dealt, as the portly 3B blocked his path and cast a large shadow on the future of the position.

Were it not for the deal, Frazier likely would have played 3B in Louisville this year.

If, then, the deal itself is part of a larger set of moves (and you can argue that it most certainly was), Hoover and the major league production of Frazier is a clear win for Cincinnati.

Atlanta won as well, as they now have a future 3B (or at least the LH part of a platoon) that looks to be at or near league average production levels very cheaply. Too, Atlanta's pen hasn't been great this season. They could have used Hoover. Because he wasn't there, the Braves chose to use Livan Hernandez, Anthony Varvaro, and Miguel Batista, among others. Some have done very, very well; others (like the ones mentions above), notsomuch. The balance is probably a league average guy-- and Hoover's much more than that this season.

In short, it's a win-win deal in which the Reds won more than the Bravos.

The Frazier situation is interesting. I don't know if the Reds ever had him penciled in as the heir to Rolen at 3b. Prior to this season I think they viewed him more as a utility player than anything else. He may have been viewed as the heir to Cairo :eek:

Did the Braves really get something in return with Francisco? I saw the comparison to Phillips but Francisco never was rated as highly as Phillips was. Francisco never had the defensive skills that BP had in the minors. I think the Reds hung onto Francisco for as long as they did for the what if factor. How good would he have been if he put it all together? I think they finally got to the place where it was time to cut bait and let some other organization be teased by Francisco.

As for Hoover he was given a chance earlier this season and hasn't disappointed. Guy has been very good in the pen. I am glad the Reds have Hoover and the Braves have Francisco.

PuffyPig
09-14-2012, 04:54 PM
I saw the comparison to Phillips but Francisco never was rated as highly as Phillips was.

The comparison to Phillips was made due to their situation, not skill level.
Phillips was (at one time) considered an elite prospect who still brought back peanuts when he was traded when his options expired.

Crumbley
09-14-2012, 07:52 PM
I see it as a good trade for both.

dougdirt
09-14-2012, 08:01 PM
I have a lot more faith that JJ Hoover can put together a good MLB career than I do that Juan Francisco can.

Blitz Dorsey
09-14-2012, 10:09 PM
I have a lot more faith that JJ Hoover can put together a good MLB career than I do that Juan Francisco can.

This.

Benihana
09-15-2012, 01:45 PM
Francisco might throw up some Tony Armas-like seasons. Might.

Overall, that trade was a piece of a larger mission. Walt took a bunch of tweeners, suspects, four-A's and turned them into quality arms.

Sappelt, Alonso, Wood, Francisco, Volquez, Janish became Latos, Hoover, Marshall and Redmond.

The only guy I'd really want back is Grandal.

Yep. This can't be overstated.
I thought for a long time that Jocketty was overrated and Krivsky should get most of the credit for this club. Krivsky should still get a lot of credit, but what Jocketty has done in the last three years has been fantastic, especially this past offseason when he brought in Latos, Marshall, Hoover and Ludwick. He has chosen the right guys to keep (Frazier, Cozart, Cueto) and the right guys to trade (Alonso, Francisco, Sappelt, Stewart, Wood, Volquez). Let's just hope the Mesoraco/Grandal choice plays out that way as well.

Vottomatic
09-15-2012, 02:57 PM
With those numbers Juan could be leading off for the Reds

Dude. That sent me into a laughing fit. Hilarious. :laugh: :lol:

Vottomatic
09-15-2012, 03:00 PM
Back to Hoover.

He seems fearless to me. I'd still like to see him get a shot at starting though. We know he can relieve. That's all he's done as a Red. Before becoming a Red, 50% of his time in the Braves organization was spent successfully starting in their farm system. He never had a minor league season with his e.r.a. higher than around 3.50 (off the top of my head).

Brutus
05-31-2013, 04:19 PM
Trade winner by a knockout: Reds

Spider Tre
05-31-2013, 04:23 PM
when i first saw the title, i thought we traded Hoover back to Atlanta for Francisco lol

Kc61
05-31-2013, 04:29 PM
Back to Hoover.

He seems fearless to me. I'd still like to see him get a shot at starting though. We know he can relieve. That's all he's done as a Red. Before becoming a Red, 50% of his time in the Braves organization was spent successfully starting in their farm system. He never had a minor league season with his e.r.a. higher than around 3.50 (off the top of my head).

Hoover should start. Chapman should start. Cingrani should start. Leake should start. Arroyo should start. Latos should start. Bailey should start. Cueto should start. I've even heard posters say that Lecure should start. Let everybody start.

Simon and Broxton can hold down the bullpen, with Ondrusek.

But Simon is a former starter. Maybe him too. . . . And didn't Ondrusek begin as a starter. Wait, now.

Kc61
05-31-2013, 04:36 PM
Yep. This can't be overstated.
I thought for a long time that Jocketty was overrated and Krivsky should get most of the credit for this club. Krivsky should still get a lot of credit, but what Jocketty has done in the last three years has been fantastic, especially this past offseason when he brought in Latos, Marshall, Hoover and Ludwick. He has chosen the right guys to keep (Frazier, Cozart, Cueto) and the right guys to trade (Alonso, Francisco, Sappelt, Stewart, Wood, Volquez). Let's just hope the Mesoraco/Grandal choice plays out that way as well.

Todd Frazier is hitting .230 and his OPS is trending down toward .700. I'm a big Cozart fan but some folks think he is a poor hitter, a good field no-hit guy. Travis Wood is having a good year with a poor team.

I think we all need to give these players time to determine how great all these moves were. Many of the guys the Reds traded away have some talent. We'll see how it all works out.

Red Raindog
05-31-2013, 04:45 PM
John Sickels profiled Hoover in September and sounds pretty high on him. Sounds like the Reds did well.



http://www.minorleagueball.com/2011/9/6/2400464/prospect-of-the-day-j-j-hoover-rhp-atlanta-braves

I used to play fantasy football with Sickels.

Always thought he was a far better judge of baseball talent than football talent.

RedEye
05-31-2013, 06:22 PM
Nice job digging up the original thread! Yep, I'd say the Reds won this one, tho I am shocked the Braves have up on JF so soon.