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CySeymour
04-02-2012, 12:42 PM
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2012/04/reds-to-extend-joey-votto.html?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

mattfeet
04-02-2012, 12:43 PM
JUST came here to post this!!!!!!!!! Wow! Did NOT see this coming this early.

-Matt

CySeymour
04-02-2012, 12:43 PM
JUST came here to post this!!!!!!!!! Wow! Did NOT see this coming this early.

-Matt

Me either...came totally out of the blue! Not that I am complaining...

:beerme:

savafan
04-02-2012, 12:44 PM
AMAZING!

Crumbley
04-02-2012, 12:45 PM
Woah.

CySeymour
04-02-2012, 12:48 PM
Not sure where the details are coming from, though

Tom Servo
04-02-2012, 12:49 PM
:pray:

mattfeet
04-02-2012, 12:50 PM
In other words, Brandon Phillips is likely gone after this year.

-Matt

redsmetz
04-02-2012, 12:53 PM
In other words, Brandon Phillips is likely gone after this year.

-Matt

Or he signs to the Reds tune, dollars & length. More likely, he's gone after this year.

11larkin11
04-02-2012, 12:55 PM
Doesn't camisdelgolf run that blog for the Reds?

WildcatFan
04-02-2012, 12:56 PM
No going to lie--I'm extremely excited and a tiny bit nervous.

savafan
04-02-2012, 12:57 PM
This would have to be for at least 10 years if the speculated $200 million range is correct, right?

WildcatFan
04-02-2012, 12:58 PM
This would have to be for at least 10 years if the speculated $200 million range is correct, right?

I'm guessing right around 8/210

mattfeet
04-02-2012, 12:59 PM
This would have to be for at least 10 years if the speculated $200 million range is correct, right?

I dont think the contract will be a 10-yr. Im thinking it will land between Ryan Zimmerman's and Matt Kemp's contract. Im thinking 7 or 8 years at $150MM. Matt Kemp came off of a (should have been) MVP year, and only had 1yr remaining under his current deal. That obviously gave him a bit more bargaining power than the 2 years that Votto currently has. Just my .02

-Matt

CySeymour
04-02-2012, 01:01 PM
Dave Cameron brought up a good point on Fangraphs. He wonders if the Reds got nervous with the Dodgers sale, thinking that they would be willing to back the Brinks truck to his house to get him to go to LA.

WVPacman
04-02-2012, 01:02 PM
I would normally be excited but april fools was yesterday.Oh who am I kidding im jumping for joy.:D

mattfeet
04-02-2012, 01:02 PM
No confirmation yet on @mlbtraderumors report on Votto deal with #Reds but sources say Phillips deal unlikely. Money could go to Votto.

per Ken Rosenthal

jojo
04-02-2012, 01:04 PM
This could be humongloid in magnitude.... Get it done.

Playadlc
04-02-2012, 01:04 PM
I'm going to go ahead and use my "one time" on this.

redsmetz
04-02-2012, 01:08 PM
I can't find the story now, but Votto, as I recall, made an interesting comment about long term contracts and the situation players find themselves in at the end of such a deal. It was something along the lines of what players make at the end of their career (again, it's a little foggy because I can't find it). Now I've posited from time to time about seeing a player with a contract that has a peak and then diminishes towards the end. Wouldn't it be interesting to see that here - same dollar amounts, but the highest salaries are towards the middle of the deal (or thereabouts). I know that's not likely, but it could be the sort of thing where the club isn't hamstrung at the end of the deal. Just a radical thought.

Reds Fanatic
04-02-2012, 01:08 PM
That is awesome news. I hope they can get this deal done.

RedsManRick
04-02-2012, 01:09 PM
Jocketty has been very good at keeping this kind of stuff close to the vest historically. I'm surprised it leaked. I'd love to keep Phillips around, but not at 75% the price of Votto. Will be very interesting to see what happens -- assuming he gets locked up, Neftali Soto should keep a bag packed.

savafan
04-02-2012, 01:12 PM
John Fay ‏ @johnfayman

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Votto confirms that an extension is close. "I can't comment till it's done. You'll have to ask Walt. It's a gray area." #reds

medford
04-02-2012, 01:16 PM
Mo just mentioned that on comment on WLW. I'm officially excited.

REDREAD
04-02-2012, 01:18 PM
wow, hopefully all those years of handwringing and assuming Votto was going to bolt for Toronto were all for naught. :laugh:

CTA513
04-02-2012, 01:20 PM
wow, hopefully all those years of handwringing and assuming Votto was going to bolt for Toronto were all for naught. :laugh:

Its a sign and trade involving Toronto.

:evil:

UKFlounder
04-02-2012, 01:21 PM
John Fay ‏ @johnfayman

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Votto confirms that an extension is close. "I can't comment till it's done. You'll have to ask Walt. It's a gray area." #reds

We need some "Just for Men" to get the gray out... :lol:

CySeymour
04-02-2012, 01:23 PM
Its a sign and trade involving Toronto.

:evil:

Bite your tongue! :D

corkedbat
04-02-2012, 01:23 PM
If true, I never thought it would happen and I've never been more glad to be wrong (as long as there is still salary room for the Reds to field a competitive team).

CarolinaRedleg
04-02-2012, 01:26 PM
Dancing banana family.............................GO

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d183/dangereyes/32.gif

hebroncougar
04-02-2012, 01:27 PM
Wowzers, please, please get this done. Having him and Bruce long term as cornerstones would be tremendous.

reds44
04-02-2012, 01:29 PM
Yessssss!!

lollipopcurve
04-02-2012, 01:34 PM
Very cool. IMO, the trade of Alonso tore down a wall between Votto and the Reds. I suspect Votto always wondered if Jocketty preferred to keep Alonso. Once the Latos trade was made, everything changed. Votto just seems so much happier now.

I never thought this would happen. But, even if the contract is a risky one for the Reds, I think the effect of keeping a homegrown, MVP-quality player, especially a guy as reliable and marketable as Votto, can do big things for an organization -- among fans and in the clubhouse. I've always disliked the migration of great players to the biggest markets, and have always enjoyed when excellent players "stay put." Now that it looks like it'll happen in Cincy, we fans have a lot to be thankful for, IMO.

I hope Votto gets a nice, long standing ovation on Opening Day. It's going to be a pleasure watching him hit 3rd for the Redlegs for a long time!

MikeS21
04-02-2012, 01:34 PM
If this is true, after stating over and over Votto is outta here, I will gladly wear the egg on my face.

Even more interesting are the implications of how the middle infield will look over the next couple years. With BP gone next year, will we see Cozart slide over to 2B, with DiDi Gregorious taking over at SS? Or will the Reds foolishly rush Billy Hamilton in 2012 to see if he will be ready for SS in 2013? Of course, there are other players that could factor in to the middle infield picture: Brodie Greene, Kris Negron, and Henry Rodriguez. Defensively, that group is pretty sound. Question is, can any of them hit enough to play at the ML level? I honestly don't know enough about any of them to know how well their progression is going.

But this is awesome news about Votto, if true.

Caveman Techie
04-02-2012, 01:34 PM
Wow! Just wow. If this happens, I'm going to have to eat some crow (gladly). I never thought Votto would stay in Cincy.

Anyone got some good recipes for crow? I hear it's supposed to go well with a nice red wine, maybe a Bordeaux. Nahhhh, nothing but Mad Dog 20/20 will kill the taste. :)

redsfan30
04-02-2012, 01:35 PM
Wow!

Bye-bye Brandon Phillips, though.

The Operator
04-02-2012, 01:36 PM
Wow. Just, wow. Happiness overload.

corkedbat
04-02-2012, 01:37 PM
Are the Toronto Boards on suicide watch? They were certain it was just a matter of time . Wouldn't have shockd me either.

MikeS21
04-02-2012, 01:39 PM
Think Votto will be the All Star starter at 1B for the NL for the next 5-7 years?

corkedbat
04-02-2012, 01:40 PM
Wow! Just wow. If this happens, I'm going to have to eat some crow (gladly). I never thought Votto would stay in Cincy.

Anyone got some good recipes for crow? I hear it's supposed to go well with a nice red wine, maybe a Bordeaux. Nahhhh, nothing but Mad Dog 20/20 will kill the taste. :)


Crow is an under-apprieciated game bird. I prefer mine fricasseed though. :evil:

http://cookeatshare.com/recipes/roasted-crow-407492

The Operator
04-02-2012, 01:41 PM
Think Votto will be the All Star starter at 1B for the NL for the next 5-7 years?I think that's a very, very strong possibility.

redsmetz
04-02-2012, 01:43 PM
Wow! Just wow. If this happens, I'm going to have to eat some crow (gladly). I never thought Votto would stay in Cincy.

Anyone got some good recipes for crow? I hear it's supposed to go well with a nice red wine, maybe a Bordeaux. Nahhhh, nothing but Mad Dog 20/20 will kill the taste. :)

A cold beer might go with some of these - who knew there really are recipes for crow? Of course, I'm hoping this happens, but you won't be alone with your supper.

http://bertc.com/subfive/recipes/threecrows.htm

OnBaseMachine
04-02-2012, 01:54 PM
Never thought this would happen. Wow!

Reds/Flyers Fan
04-02-2012, 02:00 PM
Wow! Opening Day cannot get here fast enough!

CINCINNATI!!!

BCubb2003
04-02-2012, 02:00 PM
Wow! Just wow. If this happens, I'm going to have to eat some crow (gladly). I never thought Votto would stay in Cincy.

Anyone got some good recipes for crow? I hear it's supposed to go well with a nice red wine, maybe a Bordeaux. Nahhhh, nothing but Mad Dog 20/20 will kill the taste. :)

With the right sauce, you can have wings.

Johnny Footstool
04-02-2012, 02:07 PM
This has the potential to be one of the best days ever for me concerning sports.

kaldaniels
04-02-2012, 02:09 PM
Ahh the typical egg on the face/eating crow remarks. Its always easy to do when the result is a positive.

Note to self - always predict a negative event to happen. Then either claim to be a know it all when it comes true or just sneak in the egg on the face remark during the celebration if wrong and join the party. It's a win-win. ;)

membengal
04-02-2012, 02:14 PM
Would be a good day for the entire sport of baseball if this comes to pass.

RedEye
04-02-2012, 02:16 PM
FANTASTIC! This just (almost) made my day? Mods -- should this be a sticky, or are we waiting for official news?

PickOff
04-02-2012, 02:17 PM
Votto is now poised to become the greatest Reds first baseman in the history of the franchise, and perhaps the greatest Reds player at any position.

kaldaniels
04-02-2012, 02:17 PM
I sure wish I had access to the brain of Bob C. so I knew how this is getting paid for and what future payrolls are projected to be.

kaldaniels
04-02-2012, 02:18 PM
Votto is now poised to become the greatest Reds first baseman in the history of the franchise, and perhaps the greatest Reds player at any position.

Plus, though a late bloomer, another Reds cap in the HOF?

Too soon?

RedEye
04-02-2012, 02:19 PM
What a cherry on top of a GREAT offseason by Walt. If this is true, I would hazard to say this might be the most exciting Opening Day I've ever been a part of... with the possible exception of Opening Day 2000, when The Kid came back.

HeatherC1212
04-02-2012, 02:21 PM
*faints dead away* :eek: :eek: :eek:

I cannot put into words how happy this news made me. I have had one of the worst days ever and this news seriously makes me want to cry with happiness (and yes, I know that's really depressing, LOL). PLEASE get this done before I go downtown for the Spring Showcase tomorrow night so I can cheer my head off for Joey and this entire Reds franchise. GO REDS!!! *breathes again* :jump: :jump: :jump:

Cedric
04-02-2012, 02:23 PM
Not sure who is happier about this? Myself or the coffee shops around gabp? I'm so excited right now.

WildcatFan
04-02-2012, 02:23 PM
This has the potential to be one of the best days ever for me concerning sports.

It will be for one of us!

RedEye
04-02-2012, 02:23 PM
Rosenthal's sources suggest that we are connecting the dots right about BP's extension -- or lack thereof, rather. He's probably gone (https://twitter.com/#!/Ken_Rosenthal/status/186860819231936513) after this year.


No confirmation yet on @mlbtraderumors report on Votto deal with #Reds but sources say Phillips deal unlikely. Money could go to Votto.

Tough decisions, to be sure. But if all this is true, I have to say the Reds made the right one here.

kaldaniels
04-02-2012, 02:24 PM
I hope BP maturely handles this. He be gone. Love the guy though.

Mario-Rijo
04-02-2012, 02:24 PM
I hope it gets done for more than one reason. But I feel good about the fact I never felt he was committed to leaving or even leaning strongly that way. Many would have already dealt him off.

bucksfan2
04-02-2012, 02:25 PM
I sure wish I had access to the brain of Bob C. so I knew how this is getting paid for and what future payrolls are projected to be.

There was a ton of reading through the tea leaves with Votto. Every time he mentioned his contract people disected his words to the nth degree. I really think it came down to Bob C. and his tenure in St. Louis. He saw what superstars can do to organizations and saw the value of keeping them. Its easy to build your team around superstars. A MVP caliber bat in the middle of is a nice luxury to have and can hide other aspects of the order.

The biggest key for the deal is for Votto to continue to produce. The problem with Griffey wasn't the contract, it was that he broke down and wasn't able to produce.

RedEye
04-02-2012, 02:26 PM
I really think Walt played this masterfully in this case. Signed Votto to a 3-year, player-friendly deal that he really didn't have to do. He then went out and proved that he's committed to building a roster around him by dealing for Latos et al. That's the way to get an elite player to sign a LTC in a small market! Well played, Mr. Jocketty. Well played.

mattfeet
04-02-2012, 02:27 PM
Just heard on radio the rumor is 8yr $200MM+. IF that's the case, Im not as happy about things. North of $25MM per? That's a lot of $ for ANY team, let alone the Reds.

-Matt

Reds/Flyers Fan
04-02-2012, 02:28 PM
Would be a good day for the entire sport of baseball if this comes to pass.

Here, here! :beerme:

redsmetz
04-02-2012, 02:28 PM
There was a ton of reading through the tea leaves with Votto. Every time he mentioned his contract people disected his words to the nth degree. I really think it came down to Bob C. and his tenure in St. Louis. He saw what superstars can do to organizations and saw the value of keeping them. Its easy to build your team around superstars. A MVP caliber bat in the middle of is a nice luxury to have and can hide other aspects of the order.

The biggest key for the deal is for Votto to continue to produce. The problem with Griffey wasn't the contract, it was that he broke down and wasn't able to produce.

We often forget that around here, although the other problem was they really never built much of a club around him, particularly once he had the injuries et al. Structured properly, I think this club can handle some large contracts, certainly not like the biggest clubs, but I don't see any reason why we can't work to get our attendance and revenues in the same range as St. Louis. Certainly those numbers would be unprecedented for the Reds, I'd like to believe we're on the right track.

Mario-Rijo
04-02-2012, 02:29 PM
I really think Walt played this masterfully in this case. Signed Votto to a 3-year, player-friendly deal that he really didn't have to do. He then went out and proved that he's committed to building a roster around him by dealing for Latos et al. That's the way to get an elite player to sign a LTC in a small market! Well played, Mr. Jocketty. Well played.

Exactly, well said! Many props to Walt for this.

kaldaniels
04-02-2012, 02:30 PM
Just heard on radio the rumor is 8yr $200MM+. IF that's the case, Im not as happy about things. North of $25MM per? That's a lot of $ for ANY team, let alone the Reds.

-Matt

What would you be happy with? What is the difference between that and 25 MM?

corkedbat
04-02-2012, 02:31 PM
Just heard on radio the rumor is 8yr $200MM+. IF that's the case, Im not as happy about things. North of $25MM per? That's a lot of $ for ANY team, let alone the Reds.

-Matt

Yeah, it's a lot of scratch, but what did you expect? The going rate - if they were gonna do it that kind of number was nearly inevitable. I'm still hoping its closer to 8/$180M, but really don't expect it being under $200M.

mattfeet
04-02-2012, 02:31 PM
What would you be happy with? What is the difference between that and 25 MM?

I was thinking something more along the lines of the Kemp deal at 7/8yr $160MM.

-matt

The Operator
04-02-2012, 02:34 PM
Not sure who is happier about this? Myself or the coffee shops around gabp? :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Well played, sir. Well played.

RedEye
04-02-2012, 02:34 PM
I was thinking something more along the lines of the Kemp deal at 7/8yr $160MM.

-matt

Yeah, but when you've got two other franchise-type 1B recently on the books for $200K, it seems unlikely that Votto would go for that. Unless he just wanted to be nice. And I think Votto is better, at this stage, than both Fielder and Pujols, all considered.

Crumbley
04-02-2012, 02:36 PM
I hope BP maturely handles this. He be gone. Love the guy though.
Maybe they try to sell it to BP as, "Hey, we win big this year and we can bump payroll due to all the tickets we'll sell for 2013."

RedEye
04-02-2012, 02:37 PM
Maybe they try to sell it to BP as, "Hey, we win big this year and we can bump payroll due to all the tickets we'll sell for 2013."

That's as good a pitch as any, I suppose. Feel bad for BP, but dems the breaks. Then again, I'm not giving up just yet on an extension for him, too. I thought there was no way in the world they'd ever sign Votto -- so maybe they'll surprise me again...

MikeS21
04-02-2012, 02:38 PM
8 years/$200 Million doesn't leave a lot of room for FA's and contract extensions. Looks like the organization is going to need a LOT of help from the farm system over the next few years.

Of course, there are some teams who would take on his $25 million per year salary in a trade, as their own 1B situations play out.

Vottomatic
04-02-2012, 02:40 PM
I fear the Lindner days will return. All the money locked up in one player and no money for a supporting cast.

_Sir_Charles_
04-02-2012, 02:41 PM
HA! I KNEW it!!! No...he won't stay in Cincy. He'll bolt for the money. He wants to play in Toronto. Bunch of garbage. I knew it and I LOVE it!

*rant over*

Sorry, all the "certainty" that he'd leave has just been irritating the HECK out of me the past year or two.

RichRed
04-02-2012, 02:41 PM
Fantastic news. If you can keep a player of Votto's caliber without crippling the team, you do it. Great day to be a Reds fan, assuming this gets done.

RedEye
04-02-2012, 02:41 PM
8 years/$200 Million doesn't leave a lot of room for FA's and contract extensions. Looks like the organization is going to need a LOT of help from the farm system over the next few years.

Of course, there are some teams who would take on his $25 million per year salary in a trade, as their own 1B situations play out.

True. But they do already have the other fundamental parts signed on for the next 3-5 years, right? Bruce, Cueto, Latos and Marshall will all be here for awhile anyway. Mesoraco will be here. Stubbs and Heisey, perhaps, will be gone soon -- but neither of them has proven their worth quite yet. And keeping the big bopper in the middle (Votto) is just a HUGE part of the whole equation, IMO. When you've got an annual 7-win player, you hold onto him if you can...

fearofpopvol1
04-02-2012, 02:42 PM
Brandon Phillips will not be easy to replace. He was a 6 win player last year and has consistently been around a 4+ win player ever since 2007. Bill James is projecting around a 5 win player for 2012. The Reds do not have anyone who will come close to replacing this production in the system at 2B and there aren't many 2B that exist who are with this many wins per season.

I understand that Brandon is likely looking for a long-term deal and that may be too tough of a burden for the Reds, but I would like to see if they could try to sign him for 4 years, 5 max. May not be feasible, but I think Phillips has at least 4 good years left in him.

RedEye
04-02-2012, 02:43 PM
Brandon Phillips will not be easy to replace. He was a 6 win player last year and has consistently been around a 4+ win player ever since 2007.

Agreed. But they had to make a choice, I think. I would ideally want them to keep both as well... but I think Votto is more likely to maintain his production well into the extension. My guess is middle infielders on the wrong side of 30 don't maintain their plateau for very long...

RedEye
04-02-2012, 02:44 PM
Fantastic news. If you can keep a player of Votto's caliber without crippling the team, you do it. Great day to be a Reds fan, assuming this gets done.

This is the key. I would think that Bob and Walt are too smart to tie themselves to something foolish. But you never know.

Caveat Emperor
04-02-2012, 02:45 PM
1. I'd be thrilled to see Votto be an elite player in a Cincinnati Reds uniform for the rest of his career.

2. I love the idea of Votto & Bruce being inked as Cincinnati Reds for most of the remainder of this decade.

3. I'm lukewarm on the idea of paying ANY player $20M+ per season on a team that has a budget less than $100M. It just doesn't make sense and hamstrings the team longterm on other players.

Remember, on a team with $80-$85M payroll, you're talking about Votto being in-excess of 25% of the total amount. That's a ton of money to commit to one guy on the diamond.

4. If this deal goes down, and it means the team won't be offering BP a long term deal, they need to move him soon. He's been very open in his desire to remain with the team, and the team just decided it valued Votto over him. I can see this turning into a major issue in the clubhouse.

The Operator
04-02-2012, 02:46 PM
Sorry, all the "certainty" that he'd leave has just been irritating the HECK out of me the past year or two.I was right there with you, good sir. I wasn't as confident as you that he'd be coming back, but I never understood why so many people were just dead set that he'd be gone by 2013.

_Sir_Charles_
04-02-2012, 02:47 PM
*faints dead away* :eek: :eek: :eek:

I cannot put into words how happy this news made me. I have had one of the worst days ever and this news seriously makes me want to cry with happiness (and yes, I know that's really depressing, LOL). PLEASE get this done before I go downtown for the Spring Showcase tomorrow night so I can cheer my head off for Joey and this entire Reds franchise. GO REDS!!! *breathes again* :jump: :jump: :jump:

*high five* Amen Heather! :O)

_Sir_Charles_
04-02-2012, 02:50 PM
I also don't think we should assume that Brandon won't be back either.

RedEye
04-02-2012, 02:50 PM
1. I'd be thrilled to see Votto be an elite player in a Cincinnati Reds uniform for the rest of his career.

+1


2. I love the idea of Votto & Bruce being inked as Cincinnati Reds for most of the remainder of this decade.

+1


3. I'm lukewarm on the idea of paying ANY player $20M+ per season on a team that has a budget less than $100M. It just doesn't make sense and hamstrings the team longterm on other players.

Remember, on a team with $80-$85M payroll, you're talking about Votto being in-excess of 25% of the total amount. That's a ton of money to commit to one guy on the diamond.

Is there any chance that the payroll will go up? Just curious about that. I don't think of Bob and Walt as the types to be reckless with money. Without seeing the Reds' books, I suppose we can't know, can we? Any chance they are in line to sign a more lucrative cable deal in the near future?


4. If this deal goes down, and it means the team won't be offering BP a long term deal, they need to move him soon. He's been very open in his desire to remain with the team, and the team just decided it valued Votto over him. I can see this turning into a major issue in the clubhouse.

I dunno. I would think that Walt would also be sensitive to this -- and that he would have done some damage control prior to all this happening. Then again, I know nothing about the type of communication that goes on behind the scenes on a major league baseball team. Perhaps this is where a player manager like Dusty really makes his money?

The Operator
04-02-2012, 02:51 PM
3. I'm lukewarm on the idea of paying ANY player $20M+ per season on a team that has a budget less than $100M. It just doesn't make sense and hamstrings the team longterm on other players.

Remember, on a team with $80-$85M payroll, you're talking about Votto being in-excess of 25% of the total amount. That's a ton of money to commit to one guy on the diamond.There is always the possibility that Bob is taking the payroll upwards toward the 100M mark, you never know. He's surprised us before.


4. If this deal goes down, and it means the team won't be offering BP a long term deal, they need to move him soon. He's been very open in his desire to remain with the team, and the team just decided it valued Votto over him. I can see this turning into a major issue in the clubhouse.This will be something to keep an eye on, for sure. Hopefully Brandon takes it in stride, but there is always that possibility that it will turn out bad with him. I would hate to see BP's time with The Reds end on a sour note, but these things happen in baseball I guess.

Caveat Emperor
04-02-2012, 02:55 PM
Is there any chance that the payroll will go up? Just curious about that. I don't think of Bob and Walt as the types to be reckless with money. Without seeing the Reds' books, I suppose we can't know, can we? Any chance they are in line to sign a more lucrative cable deal in the near future?

I'm guessing they're expecting TV revenue to go up with the next deal. They'll probably backload money after 2014 (which is when the deal expires) in anticipation of receiving a bump in revenue.

Though, everything I've read suggests the Reds aren't going to make much more on a new TV deal. There simply aren't enough actual eyeballs in the Cincinnati area to make a meaningful impact on the bottom line.

BCubb2003
04-02-2012, 02:55 PM
Since Brandon is also in talks, I'd think he's being kept up to date.

corkedbat
04-02-2012, 02:56 PM
There is always the possibility that Bob is taking the payroll upwards toward the 100M mark, you never know. He's surprised us before.

This will be something to keep an eye on, for sure. Hopefully Brandon takes it in stride, but there is always that possibility that it will turn out bad with him. I would hate to see BP's time with The Reds end on a sour note, but these things happen in baseball I guess.

I wouldn't even say that Joey's deal is the primary reason Phillips won't be re-upped (although it would certainly be a factor). From what I gather, Brandon is asking for any new deal to be north of the $12M h's making this season. I love BP, but I'm sorry, he's just no worth it to a team like the Reds. I'd rather spend the money on pitching or a big bat in LF and go younger (albeit with less production at second).

MikeS21
04-02-2012, 02:58 PM
True. But they do already have the other fundamental parts signed on for the next 3-5 years, right? Bruce, Cueto, Latos and Marshall will all be here for awhile anyway. Mesoraco will be here. Stubbs and Heisey, perhaps, will be gone soon -- but neither of them has proven their worth quite yet. And keeping the big bopper in the middle (Votto) is just a HUGE part of the whole equation, IMO. When you've got an annual 7-win player, you hold onto him if you can...
After watching a little bit of LaMarre this spring, I could see him replacing Stubbs in a couple years. The key is to keep having effective drafts and keep stirring the farm talent pool. If they are going to make Votto the centerpiece, then keep surrounding him with the best homegrown talent they can draft.

Of course, as someone mentioned, this makes Neftali Soto expendable, unless a position change is in the works. And Donald Lutz should learn LF.

RedEye
04-02-2012, 02:59 PM
I wouldn't even say that Joey's deal is the primary reason Phillips won't be re-upped (although it would certainly be a factor). From what I gather, Brandon is asking for any new deal to be north of the $12M h's making this season. I love BP, but I'm sorry, he's just no worth it to a team like the Reds. I'd rather spend the money on pitching or a big bat in LF and go younger (albeit with less production at second).

FWIW, this seems to be the model Walt followed during his tenure with the Cards -- invest in big bats in the OF or on the corners (McGwire, Rolen, etc.) and then fill out the IF with scrappy, good-fielding, light-hitting types (Eckstein, Polanco, Kennedy, etc.) Given the success of this strategy during those years, I can't say it would bother me terribly if we see it again in Cincy.

IslandRed
04-02-2012, 03:19 PM
It definitely feels like the "this is how we did it in St. Louis" formula. Contending is as contending does. Yes, they're betting on the come to some degree, but there's literally nothing they could do to better drive home the point to would-be ticket buyers and TV partners: we're serious and we're going to be around for awhile.

AmarilloRed
04-02-2012, 03:20 PM
Good news if true. The Cardinals did raise payroll once they signed Albert to his long extension, I expect the Reds will do the same.I can't see signing Votto to an extension and not raising payroll, especially with the high likelihood Latos will get expensive in arbitration in the near future.

lollipopcurve
04-02-2012, 03:31 PM
One of the things that's great about Votto staying is the example he sets. Tremendously hard worker, super focused on every at bat and a prideful defender. When your best player is not only one of the best in the game but also your most dedicated, that's really good. In addition, he's a smart guy, and he makes his words count. All this bodes very well for the clubhouse leadership the Reds will have.

Personally, I think Bruce is benefiting from having Votto around, and that will continue.

Brutus
04-02-2012, 04:00 PM
This is awesome news, obviously, but it really isn't surprising to me. I said over and over I honestly felt Votto would wind up staying in Cincinnati or going to Toronto. I never felt he wanted to go to a big market. I think I've said that several times here in the past.

I truly am not surprised by this in the least.

corkedbat
04-02-2012, 04:01 PM
FWIW, this seems to be the model Walt followed during his tenure with the Cards -- invest in big bats in the OF or on the corners (McGwire, Rolen, etc.) and then fill out the IF with scrappy, good-fielding, light-hitting types (Eckstein, Polanco, Kennedy, etc.) Given the success of this strategy during those years, I can't say it would bother me terribly if we see it again in Cincy.

It wouldn't shock me at all if by this time next year, 2B & SS is covered by a rotation of Zach Cozart (RH), Didi Gregorious (LH) and Henry Rodriguez (SH).

Tom Servo
04-02-2012, 04:16 PM
Not sure who is happier about this? Myself or the coffee shops around gabp? I'm so excited right now.
I bet the designer clothes stores are pretty pumped too. :lol:

RedEye
04-02-2012, 04:33 PM
It wouldn't shock me at all if by this time next year, 2B & SS is covered by a rotation of Zach Cozart (RH), Didi Gregorious (LH) and Henry Rodriguez (SH).

Me either. In fact, I think that's quite likely at this point. As per the other thread, signing BP long-term at this point just doesn't seem to make sense. Honestly, I'm not sure if it even made that much sense regardless of Votto's situation -- unless BP will sign for the 3 year / $30 million that others have been discussing, which doesn't seem likely.

RedEye
04-02-2012, 04:35 PM
One of the things that's great about Votto staying is the example he sets. Tremendously hard worker, super focused on every at bat and a prideful defender. When your best player is not only one of the best in the game but also your most dedicated, that's really good. In addition, he's a smart guy, and he makes his words count. All this bodes very well for the clubhouse leadership the Reds will have.

Personally, I think Bruce is benefiting from having Votto around, and that will continue.

Absolutely. As Caveat Emperor pointed out earlier, the idea of having both Bruce and Votto in the middle of the order for the next 4-5 years makes it a great day to be a Reds fan. :beerme:

lollipopcurve
04-02-2012, 04:50 PM
the idea of having both Bruce and Votto in the middle of the order for the next 4-5 years makes it a great day to be a Reds fan

Especially with the progress Bruce appears to be making in terms of getting himself in peak physical condition. It's really going to help him, I think. This team needs a dangerous hitter behind Votto in the worst way.

Caveat Emperor
04-02-2012, 04:55 PM
Especially with the progress Bruce appears to be making in terms of getting himself in peak physical condition. It's really going to help him, I think. This team needs a dangerous hitter behind Votto in the worst way.

Bruce's physical condition has never been a major issue -- his ability to recognize (and lay off of) a breaking pitch low and away has been the problem.

Captain Hook
04-02-2012, 05:12 PM
It was nice when the Reds looked like they were going all in for 2012 this offseason but this move would be going all in for the next 8-10 years.It's a good time to be a Reds fan considering the guys this front office have locked up and locking up Votto would be the icing on the cake.

Benihana
04-02-2012, 05:12 PM
Especially with the progress Bruce appears to be making in terms of getting himself in peak physical condition. It's really going to help him, I think. This team needs a dangerous hitter behind Bruce in the worst way.

I think if this team was being managed by anyone other than Dusty, Bruce would be hitting behind Votto. Now about that #5 hitter...

Blitz Dorsey
04-02-2012, 05:20 PM
Wow, I'm floored. And I'm the one that started the "There's no reason the Reds can't re-sign Votto" thread last summer.

Let's do this!

757690
04-02-2012, 05:22 PM
I think if this team was being managed by anyone other than Dusty, Bruce would be hitting behind Votto. Now about that #5 hitter...

Fwiw, Bruce hit behind Votto in yesterday's games, and in over 60 games last season.

wheels
04-02-2012, 05:47 PM
I saw this coming, but Im still relieved that it actually seems like it will happen.

I'm also not going to fret the Brandon Phillips situation. One thing that hasn't been mentioned is that he will soon be in a decline phase. The money the Reds would be paying him would be more of a reward than an investment. They wouldn't be paying 13 mil for a guy in his prime, and that cannot be overlooked.

As much as love Brandon, it's obvious that Votto is a much better long term investment.

Plus Plus
04-02-2012, 05:48 PM
hearing votto deal is for 10 years. i believe that is 10 total, including the 2 he has on existing deal. #reds

https://twitter.com/#!/JonHeymanCBS/status/186932498566090752

dougdirt
04-02-2012, 05:49 PM
I just woke up to see this. Honestly, I want to see how long and how much before getting excited about it. I mean, I obviously think Votto is the egg mcmuffin of Reds players, but I also don't like contracts going into their late 30's for players, particularly at 20+ million. Toss in a small market team and it could get bad.

wheels
04-02-2012, 05:54 PM
I just woke up to see this. Honestly, I want to see how long and how much before getting excited about it. I mean, I obviously think Votto is the egg mcmuffin of Reds players, but I also don't like contracts going into their late 30's for players, particularly at 20+ million. Toss in a small market team and it could get bad.

I don't mind signing first baseman already with older player skills to long term deals into their thirties. That skill set has a much longer shelf life, than a center fielder or middle infielder.

Oh, and the egg mcmuffin comment... I cringe for you.:laugh:

_Sir_Charles_
04-02-2012, 05:56 PM
I mean, I obviously think Votto is the egg mcmuffin of Reds players

Okay, THAT'S priceless. :lol:

jojo
04-02-2012, 06:05 PM
Who is the Shamrock shake of Reds players?

Brutus
04-02-2012, 06:06 PM
I just woke up to see this. Honestly, I want to see how long and how much before getting excited about it. I mean, I obviously think Votto is the egg mcmuffin of Reds players, but I also don't like contracts going into their late 30's for players, particularly at 20+ million. Toss in a small market team and it could get bad.

I hate contracts that run past 34-35 years old. So conceptually, I agree. That said... to lock him up for the last 4-5 years of his prime is a huge deal, so I guess it's worth taking the bad with the good.

edabbs44
04-02-2012, 06:06 PM
Good times. Love this FO. Love being a Reds fan right now. And love that there will be no more all in talk, since this team was never going all in this offseason.

Reds4Life
04-02-2012, 06:08 PM
Obviously I want to keep Votto like everyone else, but unless the Reds plan to significantly increase the payroll in the next 5+ years, this could end up being a bad deal for the Reds. I will wait to see what the deal is, but tying up 30% of your annual payroll in one player is a horrible idea.

edabbs44
04-02-2012, 06:12 PM
Obviously I want to keep Votto like everyone else, but unless the Reds plan to significantly increase the payroll in the next 5+ years, this could end up being a bad deal for the Reds. I will wait to see what the deal is, but tying up 30% of your annual payroll in one player is a horrible idea.

The guys making the decisions aren't rookies, they know how to manage the books.

Benihana
04-02-2012, 06:16 PM
If it's 10 years total (including 2012-2013) $200MM, are people happy?

That would be an 8 year extension at roughly $22MM per year I believe.

dougdirt
04-02-2012, 06:17 PM
Who is the Shamrock shake of Reds players?

Latos.

Plus Plus
04-02-2012, 06:18 PM
A big reason Votto's close to signing as extension? "I'm about to sign a huge deal, John, and you're the only media I have answer to." #reds

https://twitter.com/#!/johnfayman/status/186940116978241537

BCubb2003
04-02-2012, 06:21 PM
Okay, THAT'S priceless. :lol:

Are posters getting product placement deals now?

Ryan Madson would be the McRibs of this team.

wheels
04-02-2012, 06:21 PM
A big reason Votto's close to signing as extension? "I'm about to sign a huge deal, John, and you're the only media I have answer to." #reds

https://twitter.com/#!/johnfayman/status/186940116978241537

Joey Votto is an awesome guy.

dougdirt
04-02-2012, 06:22 PM
If it's 10 years total (including 2012-2013) $200MM, are people happy?

That would be an 8 year extension at roughly $22MM per year I believe.

It wouldn't be bad. Just not sure it's great either.

One thing that was brought up to me on twitter though that was interesting, is that the Reds FSN deal is up right around the time that I would start to become concerned that he isn't going to be able to perform to it. So perhaps the Reds can supplement that with some tv money.

But, I still hope before then the Reds can find other ways to add revenue, though maybe butts in the seats can add $5-10M a year.

blumj
04-02-2012, 06:22 PM
Latos.
Matt Latos is the Shamrock shake of a team with a Ryan Hanigan on it? That's just wrong.

defender
04-02-2012, 06:26 PM
It wouldn't be bad. Just not sure it's great either.

One thing that was brought up to me on twitter though that was interesting, is that the Reds FSN deal is up right around the time that I would start to become concerned that he isn't going to be able to perform to it. So perhaps the Reds can supplement that with some tv money.

But, I still hope before then the Reds can find other ways to add revenue, though maybe butts in the seats can add $5-10M a year.

Playoff money.

cincrazy
04-02-2012, 06:34 PM
So let me get this straight... Pujols leaves St. Louis. Fielder leaves Milwaukee. Votto STAYS in Cincinnati. I think the Brewers and Cards found at least a little bit of solace in "Well, the Reds won't be able to afford to keep Votto, either." That solace goes out the window. What a tremendous committment to a winning baseball team by Bob C. YES, it is a risk. I understand that. But teams like the Reds can't win without taking those risks. I love it. The Reds are a model for how to do things the right way as a small to mid market team.

Benihana
04-02-2012, 06:37 PM
It wouldn't be bad. Just not sure it's great either.


Agreed.

On a cerebral level, I'd give that hypothetical deal a B/B+
On a sentimental level, I'd give it an A++

Either way, it's a net positive for the team and the city. Probably the best day to be a Reds fan since February 10, 2000. Let's hope, unlike that day, it stays a good time to be a Reds fan for many years to come.

Benihana
04-02-2012, 06:40 PM
Here's an interesting idea:

In this zero interest rate environment, why not "frontload" the contract so-to-speak. Maybe not for 2012 or 2013 when he already has locked in value and the Reds are really looking to go big, but how about pay him $25MM+ in 2014-2016 so that from 2017-2021 he is moveable if the Reds decide to rebuild and his contract is crippling the club (a la Jr towards the end).

dougdirt
04-02-2012, 06:42 PM
Here's an interesting idea:

In this zero interest rate environment, why not "frontload" the contract so-to-speak. Maybe not for 2012 or 2013 when he already has locked in value and the Reds are really looking to go big, but how about pay him $25MM+ in 2014-2016 so that from 2017-2021 he is moveable if the Reds decide to rebuild and his contract is crippling the club (a la Jr towards the end).

I just tweeted something like that. Put him at $25M over the next 5 years, then $15M the next 5. Makes a lot of sense.

Plus Plus
04-02-2012, 06:49 PM
so votto's extension would appear to be 8 yrs, about $173M. that would bring the total to $200M

https://twitter.com/#!/JonHeymanCBS/status/186941287902093314

MikeThierry
04-02-2012, 06:52 PM
So let me get this straight... Pujols leaves St. Louis. Fielder leaves Milwaukee. Votto STAYS in Cincinnati. I think the Brewers and Cards found at least a little bit of solace in "Well, the Reds won't be able to afford to keep Votto, either." That solace goes out the window. What a tremendous committment to a winning baseball team by Bob C. YES, it is a risk. I understand that. But teams like the Reds can't win without taking those risks. I love it. The Reds are a model for how to do things the right way as a small to mid market team.

I don't know about that. With the Cards it was the fact that Pujols was turning 32 and would have been a Card until 42 with that contract. Votto is younger and a 10 year contract is easier to swallow.

I'm glad to see that the Reds took care of this. It's cool to see a mid-market team keeping their star players. Votto is someone I always liked from afar and it's good to know that he won't be playing in Toronto or some other market.

Benihana
04-02-2012, 06:55 PM
Rosenthal and Heyman confirming it is exactly a 10-year $200MM contract (8 year extension).

marcshoe
04-02-2012, 06:56 PM
I don't know about that. With the Cards it was the fact that Pujols was turning 32 and would have been a Card until 42 with that contract. Votto is younger and a 10 year contract is easier to swallow.



Yep. That's what occurred to me when I heard this--really good to hear this done when a player is still young enough to put up good numbers throughout the contract.


btw, this was one of my 3 bold predictions for 2012, coming a bit sooner than I expected. :beerme:

Always Red
04-02-2012, 06:56 PM
If it's 10 years total (including 2012-2013) $200MM, are people happy?

That would be an 8 year extension at roughly $22MM per year I believe.

Yes, very happy.

Keeping one of the best players in the game for the next ten years at a position where age is not as paramount (1B) in the post steroid age? I'm thrilled.

I don't understand those both here and in the city who question this. The Reds are locking up a stud hitter. And NOT paying him into his 40's. Does it get any better than that?

Joey Votto is a sure thing. I'd rather pay good money for a sure thing than have flex pay available for more question marks. Every single day- that's just good business sense.

traderumor
04-02-2012, 06:59 PM
So, I wonder what the insurance premium is on this contract? $20M? Maybe I want some of the commission action there.

Benihana
04-02-2012, 07:01 PM
Oh boy, Bob Nightengale now reporting 10 years $225MM. I sure hope he's wrong and the others are right...

Plus Plus
04-02-2012, 07:06 PM
http://content.usatoday.com/communities/dailypitch/post/2012/04/joey-votto-reds-contract-extension/1#.T3owVL-XRPM

Joey Votto agrees to 10-year, $225 million deal with Reds


And he will receive a full no-trade clause as part of the deal, as well, according to the person with knowledge of the contract.

Votto's deal will take effect after the final two years on his current three-year, $38 million deal expire. He'll make $9.5 million this season and $17 million in 2014.

Reds Fanatic
04-02-2012, 07:08 PM
Ken Rosenthal is also agreeing with Heyman's number of 10 years $200 million.

http://twitter.com/#!/Ken_Rosenthal

Plus Plus
04-02-2012, 07:10 PM
So, maybe two option years for a total of $25m?

Benihana
04-02-2012, 07:13 PM
So, maybe two option years for a total of $25m?

I hope they are team options!

Phhhl
04-02-2012, 07:13 PM
I am pleasantly shocked. It is going to be a lot more fun at the ballpark this year knowing that this isn't a "one off" proposition.

Benihana
04-02-2012, 07:18 PM
Looks like its a 10 year $225 deal NOT including 2012-2013. In other words, a 10 year extension that keeps him in Cincy through 2023 for a grand total of $251MM.

At least, according to Nightengale.

If this is true, while it has great sentimental value, I fear it could be a mediocre to bad baseball decision by the Reds. Unless of course the payroll will be substantially increased going forward.

If, as initially reported, it's merely an 8 year extension for a grand total of $200MM over the next 10 years, I like it significantly more.

mattfeet
04-02-2012, 07:18 PM
Yea, there seems to be a lot of confusion with the length of the contract. Im led to believe it's an 8yr EXTENSION, and when paired with his remaining 2 years, becomes a 10-year deal. Itll be interesting to see how this breaks down.

-Matt

pedro
04-02-2012, 07:18 PM
Not to be a downer but I can't help but think this won't end well. Votto is a great player, but unless there is a big revenue increase coming to the Reds that we don't know about I just can't wrap my head around any reasonable justification for tying up that much of your payroll into a player who plays a position that is as easily filled as 1B. Still, this does appear to mark a change in philosophy for the Reds after a history as relative misers so it's understandable why people are so excited by this.

dougdirt
04-02-2012, 07:24 PM
Not to be a downer but I can't help but think this won't end well. Votto is a great player, but unless there is a big revenue increase coming to the Reds that we don't know about I just can't wrap my head around any reasonable justification for tying up that much of your payroll into a player who plays a position that is as easily filled as 1B. Still, this does appear to mark a change in philosophy for the Reds after a history as relative misers so it's understandable why people are so excited by this.

That is why I am hoping they can frontload the deal, so in the last 3-4 years he is making something like 14-17 instead of 23+.

reds44
04-02-2012, 07:25 PM
Have fun being pessimistic about the last few years of the deal, I'll choose to be THRILLED the Reds just locked up Votto for 10 years. Thank God we won't have to see anymore threads about trading him.

dougdirt
04-02-2012, 07:27 PM
Have fun being pessimistic about the last few years of the deal, I'll choose to be THRILLED the Reds just locked up Votto for 10 years. Thank God we won't have to see anymore threads about trading him.

I am a Reds fan. While I want them to be really good in 2014-2020, I also want them to be good in 2021 and on.

reds44
04-02-2012, 07:30 PM
I am a Reds fan. While I want them to be really good in 2014-2020, I also want them to be good in 2021 and on.
This was the type of deal it was going to take to get Votto. He was going to get this money whether it was from the Reds or probably more from somebody else.

Brutus
04-02-2012, 07:30 PM
I am a Reds fan. While I want them to be really good in 2014-2020, I also want them to be good in 2021 and on.

The present value of $20 million in 2021 might not be a very big deal though. I don't think that back end will cripple anything.

Gallen5862
04-02-2012, 07:31 PM
I received that as a email alert.

ESPN News - Reds reach agreement with 1B Joey Votto (2010 NL MVP) on 10-year, $225 million extension - USA Today

klw
04-02-2012, 07:32 PM
Maybe the $225 million is the value in Loonies.

MikeS21
04-02-2012, 07:32 PM
Not to be a downer but I can't help but think this won't end well. Votto is a great player, but unless there is a big revenue increase coming to the Reds that we don't know about I just can't wrap my head around any reasonable justification for tying up that much of your payroll into a player who plays a position that is as easily filled as 1B. Still, this does appear to mark a change in philosophy for the Reds after a history as relative misers so it's understandable why people are so excited by this.
Agreed. The numbers being tossed around are ludicrous. I think you can kiss good-bye any other high priced players for the next ten years.

pedro
04-02-2012, 07:32 PM
Have fun being pessimistic about the last few years of the deal, I'll choose to be THRILLED the Reds just locked up Votto for 10 years. Thank God we won't have to see anymore threads about trading him.

Have fun on your sugar buzz running through the field with all your easter eggs in one basket, just don't step in a gopher hole and blow your knee out. ;)

It's not just the last few years. Not only is this too much money to pay one player under the current payroll structure, the potential risk should he get injured and not be so hurt he has to retire would cripple this franchise for a decade.

Benihana
04-02-2012, 07:32 PM
The present value of $20 million in 2021 might not be a very big deal though. I don't think that back end will cripple anything.

It is when the interest rates are zero. Just saying :p

Very happy for the next 5-7 years. I hope the city of Cincinnati returns to its 19th century prominence after that.

westofyou
04-02-2012, 07:32 PM
Too long for my taste, show me the 10 year deals that have worked out.

Benihana
04-02-2012, 07:33 PM
It's not just the last few years. Not only is this too much money to pay one player under the current payroll structure, the potential risk should he get injured and not be so hurt he has to retire would cripple this franchise for a decade.

I would hope/think there is insurance for that, although after the Madson debacle who knows.

Still though, heart says yes but head says no.

Dom Heffner
04-02-2012, 07:34 PM
The present value of $20 million in 2021 might not be a very big deal though. I don't think that back end will cripple anything.

I was thinking this the whole way reading through the thread.

pedro
04-02-2012, 07:34 PM
Too long for my taste, show me the 10 year deals that have worked out.

It'd didn't work out so well for Texas or NY and ARod is one of, if not THE, best players of his generation. And both those teams have way more money than the Reds.

Brutus
04-02-2012, 07:34 PM
It is when the interest rates are zero. Just saying :p

Very happy for the next 5-7 years. I hope the city of Cincinnati returns to its 19th century prominence after that.

I'm a big proponent of frontloading, but how long do you suppose the interest rates will be as they are?

A lot will also depend on the terms of deferment, as I'm sure there is quite a chunk of change that will be spread out longer.

RedsManRick
04-02-2012, 07:36 PM
Agreed.

On a cerebral level, I'd give that hypothetical deal a B/B+
On a sentimental level, I'd give it an A++

Either way, it's a net positive for the team and the city. Probably the best day to be a Reds fan since February 10, 2000. Let's hope, unlike that day, it stays a good time to be a Reds fan for many years to come.

This pretty much sums it up for me. Worried about the length. Thrilled with what it says about the organization.

pedro
04-02-2012, 07:36 PM
I would hope/think there is insurance for that, although after the Madson debacle who knows.

Still though, heart says yes but head says no.

Insurance only pays if a player is so incapacitated that he has to retire. If he's merely severely diminished tough luck. Plus the insurance on a ten year contract will be very expensive.

Reds Fanatic
04-02-2012, 07:37 PM
I think it is great that a small market team like the Reds was able to do a deal like this to keep their franchise player. As big as that contract is with the way contracts are going if they had waited a year or more it would cost way more to try to keep Votto. The Dodgers with their new ownership would have been one of several teams that would have bid the price on Votto so high in a few years the Reds would not have had a chance to keep him.

Roy Tucker
04-02-2012, 07:38 PM
So is this an "all in" move?

;)

lollipopcurve
04-02-2012, 07:38 PM
Let's wait until the details of the deal are released. This front office has been creative in structuring deals.

Personally, the $$$ are pretty irrelevant once you get into that stratosphere. And it's somebody else's dough, so why sweat it? People were all pumped about "going for it" in 2012. Well, now it's clear they've given themselves a 3-4 year window at least. After that, who knows. The future is usually different than what we expect.

reds44
04-02-2012, 07:42 PM
Maybe BCast won the Mega Millions?

Reds/Flyers Fan
04-02-2012, 07:42 PM
It'd didn't work out so well for Texas or NY and ARod is one of, if not THE, best players of his generation. And both those teams have way more money than the Reds.

Oh, I don't know. Give me a couple of World Series in the next 10 years like ARod win in the Bronx and I'd have to say it would work out pretty well. How much is just one World Series championship worth?

And this team is already substantially better going forward than the one that Griffey joined with such high hopes in 2000.

WVPacman
04-02-2012, 07:43 PM
I just got back on here does anybody know when this deal might get done?

reds44
04-02-2012, 07:43 PM
I just got back on here does anybody know when this deal might get done?
It is done.

It's 10/225 on top of his current deal so it's really a 12 year deal all together.

Jpup
04-02-2012, 07:44 PM
I just got back on here does anybody know when this deal might get done?


I believe it's done.

Matt700wlw
04-02-2012, 07:45 PM
Not announced by the club yet, but it's done.

reds44
04-02-2012, 07:45 PM
Votto is already signed thru 2013 and 10 yr extension w #Reds locks him through 2023 #mlb

So it's really a 12 year/251.5 deal. Dats a lot of money.

Reds Fanatic
04-02-2012, 07:45 PM
It is done.

It's 10/225 on top of his current deal so it's really a 12 year deal all together.

I actually think it may be 8 years on top of the current deal for a total 10 year deal at least that is the way Rosenthal and Heyman are reporting it.

WVPacman
04-02-2012, 07:46 PM
Oh thanks guys thats great news even thow it might be a bit to step of money but the reds had to do it.

pedro
04-02-2012, 07:46 PM
Oh, I don't know. Give me a couple of World Series in the next 10 years like ARod win in the Bronx and I'd have to say it would work out pretty well. How much is just one World Series championship worth?

And this team is already substantially better going forward than the one that Griffey joined with such high hopes in 2000.

They've won one while AROd has been there during which time they've spent well over a billion dollars in payroll.

I just don't think this sets the team up well to compete long term unless things change financially. They start drawing 40,000 people anight to the GABP maybe I'll feel differently.

smith288
04-02-2012, 07:47 PM
I'm here to say I had no opinion either way on if Votto would be back or not.

I'm pleased though.

reds44
04-02-2012, 07:47 PM
I actually think it may be 8 years on top of the current deal for a total 10 year deal at least that is the way Rosenthal and Heyman are reporting it.
He's signed through 2023. That's 12 years.

redsmetz
04-02-2012, 07:47 PM
That is why I am hoping they can frontload the deal, so in the last 3-4 years he is making something like 14-17 instead of 23+.

Doug, I've been suggesting something like this for several months now. It's hardly ever done (or maybe not at all), but I think it helps making the later years a bit easier to handle without handcuffing you for whoever the next generation stars are.

reds44
04-02-2012, 07:48 PM
The Cincinnati Reds slugger on Monday agreed to a 10-year, $225 million contract extension, according to a person familiar with the deal but not authorized to speak publicly about them because the deal is not finalized. Votto's extension ties him to the Reds through 2023 and continues a wild run of baseball spending.

Tony Cloninger
04-02-2012, 07:48 PM
Votto is already signed thru 2013 and 10 yr extension w #Reds locks him through 2023 #mlb

So it's really a 12 year/251.5 deal. Dats a lot of money.


You keep adding up more money than it is... it's an extension on top of what the already existing contract is...but an 8 year extension and not more than $225 million.

Reds Fanatic
04-02-2012, 07:48 PM
Votto is already signed thru 2013 and 10 yr extension w #Reds locks him through 2023 #mlb

So it's really a 12 year/251.5 deal. Dats a lot of money.

Actually I think you are right. Ken Rosenthal is now reporting that according to a source it is 10 years on top of the current 2 years

http://twitter.com/#!/Ken_Rosenthal

klw
04-02-2012, 07:50 PM
I actually think it may be 8 years on top of the current deal for a total 10 year deal at least that is the way Rosenthal and Heyman are reporting it.

Rosenthal is saying Nightengale is correct.



· Open
Source: Votto deal is indeed 10 years/$225M on top of the two remaining years, as first reported by @BNightengale. #Reds

http://twitter.com/#!/Ken_Rosenthal

Tony Cloninger
04-02-2012, 07:50 PM
MLB Network is showing 8 year extension of the original deal at less than $180 million per year.

WVPacman
04-02-2012, 07:51 PM
Lord we won't be able to sign a big time FA until 2023!!:alcohol:

fearofpopvol1
04-02-2012, 07:51 PM
I went from thinking it was a fair deal to thinking it was a bad deal. Those extra 2 years and the money that comes with it actually is a difference maker.

While I'm thrilled to have Votto around, I can't get past the fact that I just don't like lengthy contracts like this, especially when it takes a guy into his 40s.

reds44
04-02-2012, 07:51 PM
You keep adding up more money than it is... it's an extension on top of what the already existing contract is...but an 8 year extension and not more than $225 million.
It's a 10 year extension. He's signed through 2023. That's 12 years. 2 on his current deal, 10 year extension. The extension is 10/225. Total value would be 12/251.5.

AtomicDumpling
04-02-2012, 07:53 PM
Here's an interesting idea:

In this zero interest rate environment, why not "frontload" the contract so-to-speak. Maybe not for 2012 or 2013 when he already has locked in value and the Reds are really looking to go big, but how about pay him $25MM+ in 2014-2016 so that from 2017-2021 he is moveable if the Reds decide to rebuild and his contract is crippling the club (a la Jr towards the end).

The Reds can "frontload" the contract on their own by setting aside an extra $5 million or so each year (preferably in an annuity or interest-bearing account) in the early years, then draw upon that in the later years. I think teams do that frequently.

Teams fully realize when they sign these long contracts that they are going to get most of the value in the early years. The players know it too. For example, if the deal is 10 years for $200 million the team feels they will get $30 million in value each of the first couple years then they will get gradually less each season and in the last couple years they might only get $5 million or less in value. I imagine if the deal was only for 8 years it still would have cost close to $200 million because both sides knew the bulk of the value is in the early years and those last two years come cheap.

An additional factor is payroll inflation. As the years go by that $20 milion per year becomes a smaller percentage of the total payroll as the budget increases over time. Ten years ago the Reds were spending half of what they are now. Chances are ten years from now the Reds will be spending approximately double what they spend now. So the budget hit declines each year as a percentage of the total.

This deal will be a good deal for the team if Votto stays healthy and productive. The Reds can afford to pay nearly any salary as long as the player is earning it with his play on the field. The bad contracts are the ones like Arroyo's or Milton's where the player did not produce anywhere near the level at which he was being paid.

klw
04-02-2012, 07:53 PM
I thought of this but am not sure why

That'll do pig, that'll do (ending to Babe) - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjQtzV9IZ0Q)

marcshoe
04-02-2012, 07:54 PM
MLB Network is showing 8 year extension of the original deal at less than $180 million per year.


I certainly hope so! I mean, I like Votto as much as anyone, but come on!

mattfeet
04-02-2012, 07:55 PM
Yea, first report today was 8yr $173MM extension, not including his remaining 2 years. That would have put his total remaining deal at 10yr $200MM, which I greatly prefer.

reds44
04-02-2012, 07:56 PM
But that's not what it is. Both Rosenthan and Nightengale said he's signed through 2023, that's 12/251.5.

westofyou
04-02-2012, 07:57 PM
Dang... that buys a lot of "fancy" stuff

George Anderson
04-02-2012, 07:57 PM
This reminds me of the Griffey Jr. deal and that is not a good thing.

Tony Cloninger
04-02-2012, 08:01 PM
But that's not what it is. Both Rosenthan and Nightengale said he's signed through 2023, that's 12/251.5.

Since Joey told Fay he was only talking to him about it...... I can only hope both those 2 are just blowing smoke out their A's .....and are just going on conjecture since they are paid to be the baseball insiders.
But since most FO personnel cannot keep quiet even with guns to their heads......I am sure some big mouth told both those guys something to this affect.

I am happy he is here and the speculation is over....but this is too much to pay.

reds44
04-02-2012, 08:06 PM
Buster Olney ‏ @Buster_ESPN Reply Retweet Favorite · Open
To put the Votto deal in perspective: Only Alex Rodriguez has generated a bigger deal. Incredible commitment by Reds, significant risk.

wheels
04-02-2012, 08:08 PM
Wow. That is an incredible amount of scratch.

I'm still going with my heart today, though. I'm happy.

I will kvetch about how it's hamstrung them a few years from now. Maybe a bit of sustained success will help to take some of the edge off of that sentiment.

The next few years are going to be very interesting to say the least.

Brutus
04-02-2012, 08:08 PM
Isn't this what people wanted though? We all wanted Votto to be extended. Players don't agree to extensions prior to hitting the open market without paying serious coin or giving serious security.

Overpaying is a requisite if you want to keep guys like Joey Votto in town or attracting them on an open market. It's very possible the last 3-4 years on this deal won't get much productivity. I say that's a small price to pay for having an MVP candidate for the next 5-7 years.

wheels
04-02-2012, 08:10 PM
Isn't this what people wanted though? We all wanted Votto to be extended. Players don't agree to extensions prior to hitting the open market without paying serious coin or giving serious security.

Overpaying is a requisite if you want to keep guys like Joey Votto in town or attracting them on an open market. It's very possible the last 3-4 years on this deal won't get much productivity. I say that's a small price to pay for having an MVP candidate for the next 5-7 years.

I'm right there with you.

hebroncougar
04-02-2012, 08:11 PM
This reminds me of the Griffey Jr. deal and that is not a good thing.

I don't know............ownership now seems a lot more committed to winning than the previous group.

Will M
04-02-2012, 08:12 PM
forgive me if this link has already been posted. here is Dave Cameron's take:

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/joey-vottos-massive-extension-changes-the-game/

Tony Cloninger
04-02-2012, 08:13 PM
Isn't this what people wanted though? We all wanted Votto to be extended. Players don't agree to extensions prior to hitting the open market without paying serious coin or giving serious security.

Overpaying is a requisite if you want to keep guys like Joey Votto in town or attracting them on an open market. It's very possible the last 3-4 years on this deal won't get much productivity. I say that's a small price to pay for having an MVP candidate for the next 5-7 years.


Yes you are correct.

reds44
04-02-2012, 08:13 PM
forgive me if this link has already been posted. here is Dave Cameron's take:

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/joey-vottos-massive-extension-changes-the-game/
As I said:

Joey Votto an offer he couldn’t refuse. Actually, they made him an offer that no player in baseball could refuse, signing him (per Bob Nightengale of USA Today) to the longest contract in the history of the game — a staggering 12-year, $251.5 million commitment (or, phrased differently, a 10-year extension on top of the 2/26 he had already agreed to) that will keep Votto in Cincinnati through the 2023 season.

MikeS21
04-02-2012, 08:15 PM
lol! Just wait until Votto has an off year. RedsZone will go into meltdown mode - calling for him to be DFA'd and for the entire FO to be fired!

mattfeet
04-02-2012, 08:16 PM
Fantastic article on the signing:

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/joey-vottos-massive-extension-changes-the-game/

BCubb2003
04-02-2012, 08:17 PM
I will kvetch about how it's hamstrung them a few years from now.

Let's not use that word.

Kc61
04-02-2012, 08:17 PM
I've been waiting for many years for the Reds to start acting like a big time baseball team. It began this past off-season and continues with this great move.

I don't know enough about the Reds' finances to evaluate this from a dollars and cents point of view. Castellini is no fool, I'm sure it has been evaluated with a fine tooth comb.

But I see great things for this franchise going forward. More revenue, more excitement, and winning baseball. Great move.

Tony Cloninger
04-02-2012, 08:20 PM
As I said:

Touche'

corkedbat
04-02-2012, 08:24 PM
I have no problems as long as they plan on being competitive for the length of the deal and have some idea of how they are going to do so. The first time they start saying we can't afford to do... because of JV's contract, I'm going off!

Can't speak for others, but I'll do my part and try to double the number of games I see this year from 5-6 to 10-12

PickOff
04-02-2012, 08:27 PM
There is not another player in baseball right now that I would rather pay $250 million over 12 years. Anybody else want to offer up a player that would be more worthy of this money and years right now? Of course you could argue that no player is worth this money.

The Reds are selling, not buying. They are selling commitment to winning baseball with the Votto and Bruce contracts, not to mention other recent moves. They believe that this contract will further excite fans and bring new season ticket holders to the stadium. They are also selling the networks/cable on the viability and fan interest for the team moving forward.

$22.5 million 7 years from now won't seem like nearly the money it does today to the Reds.

MikeS21
04-02-2012, 08:28 PM
The team is really set for the next 3-4 years. Why not pump money into player drafting and development and stock the farm system with cheap, top tier talent, who can step in and replace players who hit their free agent years?

Tony Cloninger
04-02-2012, 08:31 PM
The team is really set for the next 3-4 years. Why not pump money into player drafting and development and stock the farm system with cheap, top tier talent, who can step in and replace players who hit their free agent years?

Beacuse eventually you have to keep some of these players. The Twins did with Mauer. He just cannot be counted on to catch all the time now and he has no where near the power of Joey. Your not going to keep coming up with hitters like Votto just beacuse you draft and develop your A off.

As much as I wish they could have signed him for a little less.....they had to do it, IMO.

Kc61
04-02-2012, 08:37 PM
There is not another player in baseball right now that I would rather pay $250 million over 12 years. Anybody else want to offer up a player that would be more worthy of this money and years right now? Of course you could argue that no player is worth this money.

The Reds are selling, not buying. They are selling commitment to winning baseball with the Votto and Bruce contracts, not to mention other recent moves. They believe that this contract will further excite fans and bring new season ticket holders to the stadium. They are also selling the networks/cable on the viability and fan interest for the team moving forward.

$22.5 million 7 years from now won't seem like nearly the money it does today to the Reds.

This is exactly right.

IslandRed
04-02-2012, 08:42 PM
The first time they start saying we can't afford to do... because of JV's contract, I'm going off!

Well, of course there are going to be things they can't afford to do because of Votto's contract. Even if they raise the payroll budget, there's still a budget, and the money spent on Votto can't be spent on something else. That doesn't concern me as long as the "something else" isn't a way better deal than Votto. Anyway, payflex isn't always all it's cracked up to be. The market for above-average ballplayers isn't particularly liquid.

steig
04-02-2012, 08:45 PM
What 10 year deal has worked out well for the team?

This is to much money for a small market team, to long of a contract for a player who will be 30 at the start of this extension, and now the '00s start again.

Brutus
04-02-2012, 08:49 PM
What 10 year deal has worked out well for the team?

This is to much money for a small market team, to long of a contract for a player who will be 30 at the start of this extension, and now the '00s start again.

Several problems with this thinking.

1. There are hardly ever any 10-year deals signed, so it's impossible to know how often they work out. How many 10-year deals have actually been signed? According to Fangraphs, this is the longest extension ever. So we really can't say because we're in uncharted territory here.

2. How are you judging the deal? Are you writing off a contract as a loss if the player is terrible the last year or two? Or are you going to consider it a loss only if the total production doesn't exceed the total compensation by the end of the deal (i.e. all the years combined)?

If Joey Votto is paid for 40 WAR and puts up 45 over the life of the deal, isn't that a good deal? It sounds like people are worried about being paid for 5-6 WAR a year and not coming close to the 5-6 in the last few years of the contract.

reds44
04-02-2012, 08:51 PM
Bob Nightengale ‏ @BNightengale Reply Retweet Favorite · Open
@nburzych @Ken_Rosenthal Yes, indeed. If you factor in his $9.5 million salary this year, and $17m next year, he is owed $251.5m over 12 yrs

OldRightHander
04-02-2012, 08:54 PM
If this had been posted yesterday...

steig
04-02-2012, 08:55 PM
Several problems with this thinking.

1. There are hardly ever any 10-year deals signed, so it's impossible to know how often they work out. How many 10-year deals have actually been signed? According to Fangraphs, this is the longest extension ever. So we really can't say because we're in uncharted territory here.

2. How are you judging the deal? Are you writing off a contract as a loss if the player is terrible the last year or two? Or are you going to consider it a loss only if the total production doesn't exceed the total compensation by the end of the deal (i.e. all the years combined)?

If Joey Votto is paid for 40 WAR and puts up 45 over the life of the deal, isn't that a good deal? It sounds like people are worried about being paid for 5-6 WAR a year and not coming close to the 5-6 in the last few years of the contract.

There are hardly ever 10 year deals because GMs know they are not smart deals, especially for players near 30. Owners want 10 year deals to make fans happy.

I only judge the value of this deal by the number of World Series the Reds win during this time. If this deal keeps them from winning a championship then this is a bad deal. If the Reds win multiple World Series then this is a good deal for the Reds. One World Series would be a push. The only stat that matters in the end is how many Rings.

Brutus
04-02-2012, 08:56 PM
There are hardly ever 10 year deals because GMs know they are not smart deals, especially for players near 30. Owners want 10 year deals to make fans happy.

I only judge the value of this deal by the number of World Series the Reds win during this time. If this deal keeps them from winning a championship then this is a bad deal. If the Reds win multiple World Series then this is a good deal for the Reds. One World Series would be a push. The only stat that matters in the end is how many Rings.

So any deal shouldn't be done if it doesn't guarantee a World Series?

steig
04-02-2012, 08:57 PM
So any deal shouldn't be done if it doesn't guarantee a World Series?

The Reds are not the Yankees, they cannot afford to make a mistake with $250 million.

MikeS21
04-02-2012, 09:00 PM
Beacuse eventually you have to keep some of these players. The Twins did with Mauer. He just cannot be counted on to catch all the time now and he has no where near the power of Joey. Your not going to keep coming up with hitters like Votto just beacuse you draft and develop your A off.

As much as I wish they could have signed him for a little less.....they had to do it, IMO.
But you are not replacing Votto. As you said, you will not keep coming up with Joey Votto's. However, if you keep coming up with Jay Bruce's and Mat Latos's and Johnny Cueto's, you can afford to trade those players and replace them with top prospects. If Votto is signed through 2023, I would draft a big time 1B about 2019, who can be ready to go around 2022. That is truly the only way a small market team like the Reds can survive.

Roy Tucker
04-02-2012, 09:01 PM
If there is any player I'd do a contract like that with, it would be Votto. Great talent, great work ethic, , takes great care of himself, and very competitive.

But its a big risk. Blown out knee, inside fastball to the noggin, or a reoccurance of his past depression and its a huge boat anchor.

Brutus
04-02-2012, 09:03 PM
The Reds are not the Yankees, they cannot afford to make a mistake with $250 million.

But again, define mistake. Are you suggesting it's a mistake if they don't win the World Series? What if the Reds get to the playoffs five times in 10 years. Is it a mistake?

How are you defining "mistake."

Brutus
04-02-2012, 09:04 PM
If there is any player I'd do a contract like that with, it would be Votto. Great talent, great work ethic, , takes great care of himself, and very competitive.

But its a big risk. Blown out knee, inside fastball to the noggin, or a reoccurance of his past depression and its a huge boat anchor.

If he blows out a knee and has to hang up the cleats, insurance will compensate the Reds for much of the contract. The bigger risk is simply becoming an unproductive player too early in the course of the deal.

westofyou
04-02-2012, 09:06 PM
My, my things have changed in the city of seven hills, consider this: Riverfront cost $45 million to build ($269*million in 2012 dollars) and the Reds will pay Votto roughly 83% of that during the life of the contract.

This coming from the team that was traditionally one of the hawks in the free agent war, a team that still rarely is mentioned in FA talks, a team that has never hit 100 million in payroll, a team with a weak tv deal, a team whose attendance record for the franchise is from 36 years ago.

In short this is the biggest move this franchise has made since the Griffey deal, any fan of this team should be crossing their fingers and praying to whatever they consider a higher power.

This is all in, this is a serious gamble.

Strikes Out Looking
04-02-2012, 09:07 PM
My thoughts:

1. I think Votto actually gave the Reds a discount, if you look at his age versus the deal the Angels gave Pujols (especially since I believe Pujols is older than the says he is).

2. I think this is an investment in Cincy baseball on top of Votto. It says this team is here for the long haul SO FANS BUY YOUR TICKETS. I would hope (and believe) that BobCast has a plan to make the Reds a regional favorite again like they were in the 70's.

3. I don't think this precludes Phillips from being resigned -- Phillips will only be signed for 4-5 years at most and for much less money. If Phillips isn't resigned its because mgmt. feels he can be replaced by much cheaper options.

4. I've been waiting for a long term slugging combination like Bruce-Votto since 1977 when the Bench/Perez combo was dismantled. I love these two and look forward to the future.

5. I wouldn't compare this to the Griffey signing because Jr. had already played for nearly a decade before Jimbo signed him. As a side note, Leatherpants today was talking about long term deals and had the gumption to say "Jr. didn't perform like they thought he would in Cincy. Who is they? Leatherpants himself. What a fool.

6. Decent pitching will always be the key, no matter how much the 1b makes.

lollipopcurve
04-02-2012, 09:08 PM
What is it they say... go big or go home?

Reds have a go big ownership. That much is clear now. I have a feeling the vast majority of fans approve. (Remember Lindner?)

Captain Hook
04-02-2012, 09:08 PM
Isn't this what people wanted though? We all wanted Votto to be extended. Players don't agree to extensions prior to hitting the open market without paying serious coin or giving serious security.

Overpaying is a requisite if you want to keep guys like Joey Votto in town or attracting them on an open market. It's very possible the last 3-4 years on this deal won't get much productivity. I say that's a small price to pay for having an MVP candidate for the next 5-7 years.

That's the way I see it.It's 2012 not 2000 so people need to get over what happened back then under different ownership.

Tony Cloninger
04-02-2012, 09:08 PM
There are hardly ever 10 year deals because GMs know they are not smart deals, especially for players near 30. Owners want 10 year deals to make fans happy.

I only judge the value of this deal by the number of World Series the Reds win during this time. If this deal keeps them from winning a championship then this is a bad deal. If the Reds win multiple World Series then this is a good deal for the Reds. One World Series would be a push. The only stat that matters in the end is how many Rings.


So if they do not win any rings but have an Atlanta Braves type run for 10 years......(Like 1996-2006...since they won in 1995)..... it's a failure beacuse it will Just be Votto's fault and his big contract that they did not win?

hebroncougar
04-02-2012, 09:08 PM
There are hardly ever 10 year deals because GMs know they are not smart deals, especially for players near 30. Owners want 10 year deals to make fans happy.

I only judge the value of this deal by the number of World Series the Reds win during this time. If this deal keeps them from winning a championship then this is a bad deal. If the Reds win multiple World Series then this is a good deal for the Reds. One World Series would be a push. The only stat that matters in the end is how many Rings.

You don't do deals because of what they might not do. You do deals because they bring you closer to world championships. This does that for the Reds IMO.

kaldaniels
04-02-2012, 09:09 PM
I never thought a player would end up in the HOF again being a Red his whole career. Now there is a chance.

steig
04-02-2012, 09:10 PM
But again, define mistake. Are you suggesting it's a mistake if they don't win the World Series? What if the Reds get to the playoffs five times in 10 years. Is it a mistake?

How are you defining "mistake."

I don't consider the playoffs 5 out of 10 or even making the playoffs each year to be the goal. The goal should be championships. If this deal prevents the Reds from keeping other players down the road or from obtaining other players that could lead to a championship then this is a mistake.

Captain Hook
04-02-2012, 09:10 PM
You don't do deals because of what they might not do. You do deals because they bring you closer to world championships. This does that for the Reds IMO.

.....and this deal does just that for the next 10-12 years.

IslandRed
04-02-2012, 09:11 PM
In short this is the biggest move this franchise has made since the Griffey deal, any fan of this team should be crossing their fingers and praying to whatever they consider a higher power.

This is all in, this is a serious gamble.

Oh, no doubt. They have clearly decided to stop acting like a small-market team and are trusting the market and revenues to follow them down that road. There's risk attached, no question.

RedsBaron
04-02-2012, 09:11 PM
I only judge the value of this deal by the number of World Series the Reds win during this time. If this deal keeps them from winning a championship then this is a bad deal. If the Reds win multiple World Series then this is a good deal for the Reds. One World Series would be a push. The only stat that matters in the end is how many Rings.

In the more than 100 year history of the Reds they have won five World Series. Only once in their history has a Reds team put together even two World Series championships in one era, the 1975-1976 Big Red Machine.
If this contract brings the Reds even one World Championship it is not a "push." One World Championship in ten years would be a huge accomplishment, far in excess of the Reds historical standard.

Joseph
04-02-2012, 09:11 PM
Too much time is spent fretting what this will cost the Reds down the road.

What I know, Joey Votto is one of the best players in baseball regardless of position and we have him for the next dozen years. To me thats a win for this franchise and fan base. If some of you would rather spend your time worrying if we can sign a free agent in 2017 you go ahead.

kaldaniels
04-02-2012, 09:11 PM
I don't consider the playoffs 5 out of 10 or even making the playoffs each year to be the goal. The goal should be championships. If this deal prevents the Reds from keeping other players down the road or from obtaining other players that could lead to a championship then this is a mistake.

Playoffs are a crapshoot. The goal is to maximize the odds of winning a championship.

mattfeet
04-02-2012, 09:12 PM
Too much time is spent fretting what this will cost the Reds down the road.

What I know, Joey Votto is one of the best players in baseball regardless of position and we have him for the next dozen years. To me thats a win for this franchise and fan base. If some of you would rather spend your time worrying if we can sign a free agent in 2017 you go ahead.

Good point. :beerme:

Tony Cloninger
04-02-2012, 09:12 PM
I don't consider the playoffs 5 out of 10 or even making the playoffs each year to be the goal. The goal should be championships. If this deal prevents the Reds from keeping other players down the road or from obtaining other players that could lead to a championship then this is a mistake.


If they go to the playoffs every year.....that means they had the means to win every year and compete for a WS. It will not be this contracts fault that they do not win it all at least once.

Brutus
04-02-2012, 09:12 PM
I don't consider the playoffs 5 out of 10 or even making the playoffs each year to be the goal. The goal should be championships. If this deal prevents the Reds from keeping other players down the road or from obtaining other players that could lead to a championship then this is a mistake.

OK fine. But here's the problem... you seem to be assuming that if they don't win a World Series, this deal will have been an impediment to them doing so. Isn't the mere idea of keeping around an MVP-caliber player an asset to a team hunting for a World Series more than a liability? The money is only a liability if it prohibits them from putting a quality unit around him. If the club doesn't believe this money will be an obstacle, than by definition, isn't it vastly improving their team?

Kc61
04-02-2012, 09:13 PM
Remember when the Reds drafted Votto? He was deemed a catcher who would likely have to change positions. It was said that he had a good bat but no real position.

Then, when he was in the high minors, it was rumored that the Reds considered Joey a AAAA player and that he was trade bait. Of Cueto, Bailey, Bruce, and Votto, Joey was routinely placed 4th in the write-ups.

Now he's an MVP winner who is getting one of the biggest contracts in baseball history.

It's great to have seen his development so far and I'm looking forward to watching Votto on a championship Reds team in the near future.

RedsBaron
04-02-2012, 09:14 PM
If there is any player I'd do a contract like that with, it would be Votto. Great talent, great work ethic, , takes great care of himself, and very competitive.

But its a big risk. Blown out knee, inside fastball to the noggin, or a reoccurance of his past depression and its a huge boat anchor.

It's clearly a gamble. There are no guarantees. If that gamble isn't taken some time you will never win, and Votto indeed has a terrific work ethic and is a great talent. But, yes, keep your fingers crossed.

kaldaniels
04-02-2012, 09:15 PM
Who was it that had a source in the organization that said Cincy was too conserative for Joey? And he WOULD NOT re-sign. Might need to get a new mole.

Captain Hook
04-02-2012, 09:17 PM
251/12=20.83

Isn't that a deal?Paying less then 21 million a year over the next 12 years for a guy that's 28 and is easily a top 5 player in the game right now is something the Reds might not ever get the opportunity to do again.I'm glad they took advantage.

steig
04-02-2012, 09:19 PM
OK fine. But here's the problem... you seem to be assuming that if they don't win a World Series, this deal will have been an impediment to them doing so. Isn't the mere idea of keeping around an MVP-caliber player an asset to a team hunting for a World Series more than a liability? The money is only a liability if it prohibits them from putting a quality unit around him. If the club doesn't believe this money will be an obstacle, than by definition, isn't it vastly improving their team?

Yes, it improves your team. yes, it gives you better odds of winning with the current attitude of ownership. However, a lot can change in over this time. Let's just hope this works out because that is what everyone here really wants to see occur.

Vottomatic
04-02-2012, 09:19 PM
Well, I'm probably his biggest fan, but I'm not crazy about signing players for that length of time and large amounts when we're small market.

I'm happy for Joey. I just hope he doesn't have a Ken Griffey Jr. type of career where he is the centerpiece of a crap team because the Reds can't afford the pieces around him.

My hope is that the Reds have deferred alot of the money. Have already had talks about a much better new TV contract that increases revenue for the team, that will allow them to sign players like this.

I'm cautiously happy. If ownership/management tries to cash in solely on this move and not do anything else, I will not be happy. I felt bad for Griffey for a long, long time. He got screwed by Lindner and Allen.

On a lighter note, the Reds did what the Cardinals and Brewers could not do.........sign their best player. Pretty impressive.

Brutus
04-02-2012, 09:20 PM
Basically the Reds are paying for 50 WAR, theoretically. If Votto averages 4 WAR per year, they'll get the ROI. The nice thing is... that's not even adjusted for inflation (at least the WAR figures aren't), so I really think the Reds will get their money's worth if Votto sustains success for even the next 6-8 seasons.

mth123
04-02-2012, 09:23 PM
Love the deal. Not worried about the out years so much. Payroll will be higher then. Revenues will be higher. A lot of teams are making big time deals for local TV rights. At a minimum, the Reds will be getting a much bigger number through revenue sharing even if they don't get a similar deal themselves. I just don't see how the payroll will be below $100 Million after the next couple of years. Numbers are going up in general, by 2016 or so, this amount will be a much smaller percentage of the total than it seems now.

As for the precedent with Griffey, this is an entirely different environment. The team seems to have a clue that it needs to continue churning young players who can fit around the centerpiece for cheap. Pay the main men and keep the role players cheap.

I really like Brandon Phillips, but he's a role player and the team is loaded with young MI talent. Especially if having to play SS every day isn't part of the deal. So down the road, Votto will be making slightly less than what he and Phillips combine for now. I don't really have a problem with that given how the farm looks right now. Votto and a low dollar kid with potential at 2B is fine by me.

VR
04-02-2012, 09:26 PM
My, my things have changed in the city of seven hills, consider this: Riverfront cost $45 million to build ($269*million in 2012 dollars) and the Reds will pay Votto roughly 83% of that during the life of the contract.

This coming from the team that was traditionally one of the hawks in the free agent war, a team that still rarely is mentioned in FA talks, a team that has never hit 100 million in payroll, a team with a weak tv deal, a team whose attendance record for the franchise is from 36 years ago.

In short this is the biggest move this franchise has made since the Griffey deal, any fan of this team should be crossing their fingers and praying to whatever they consider a higher power.

This is all in, this is a serious gamble.

Great points woy. Votto isn't quite in the league Griff was, but I do like the fact that he plays a 'safe' position in 1b, so we won't have to witness the horrific fielding decline that we saw in KGJ.

These guys have some serious talent locked up for the near future......now need an unexpected breakthrough from a minor leaguer or two...and they are IN BUSINESS>

PickOff
04-02-2012, 09:31 PM
In short this is the biggest move this franchise has made since the Griffey deal, any fan of this team should be crossing their fingers and praying to whatever they consider a higher power.

This is all in, this is a serious gamble.

Agreed, a huge gamble on the fans really. Will we answer the call?

The insurance and the terms of the no trade clause also plays a role in the degree of risk. I will be interested to see the official contract announcement.

Lets hope us fans and the Reds have the nuts on this hand.

Big Klu
04-02-2012, 09:33 PM
Now maybe the Reds can finally move Votto to LF. :D

jojo
04-02-2012, 09:35 PM
Well we at least now know the identity of one of the mega millions winners.... Bob C

RedEye
04-02-2012, 09:38 PM
Great post on FanGraphs by Dave Cameron, breaking down the deal. Seems the Reds have just set the new standard... I am thoroughly shocked by this.

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/joey-vottos-massive-extension-changes-the-game/



A few months ago, I would have expected Votto to have to settle for a contract somewhere between Ryan Howard’s $125 million and Miguel Cabrera’s $154 million. Now, though, those numbers simply seem obsolete. Votto’s deal shows that it’s not just the big market teams that are expecting significant revenue growth going forward.

This deal is going to have lasting repercussions on the sport. Not only does it suggest that the Reds are going to remain competitive in the NL Central going forward, but it also resets the price expectations for every pre-free agent player in the sport. Congratulations, players, all of your expected prices just went up. Way up.