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OnBaseMachine
04-03-2012, 01:42 PM
From the Baltimore Sun's Dan Connolly:

Alfredo Simon has been claimed by #reds accdg to industry source

https://twitter.com/#!/danconnollysun

I read some quotes on Simon a couple days ago that he had been impressing scouts this spring with mid-90's heat.

OnBaseMachine
04-03-2012, 01:46 PM
Jayson Stark tweeted this yesterday:

Lots of buzzing about Alfredo Simon on outright waiver wire. One scout: "I'm sure somebody will claim him based on arm strength alone."

Simon clocked at 95 mph all spring before groin strain in mid-March. Can start or relieve. Not many guys like that available for plucking

https://twitter.com/#!/jaysonst

HeatherC1212
04-03-2012, 01:52 PM
He was pretty good for the Orioles last year so hopefully he can be an asset to the Reds now. :)

Kc61
04-03-2012, 01:53 PM
Wonder if the Reds need to put him on the 40.

Tom Servo
04-03-2012, 01:58 PM
So I know he was acquitted and all, but do you guys think he killed that guy?

VottoFan54
04-03-2012, 02:02 PM
FWIW, last year, as a starter, Simon was slightly better against lefties than righties. Two years ago, as a reliever, he was significantly better against lefties than righties.

mbgrayson
04-03-2012, 02:13 PM
I think this is a killer move. He can start the year on the DL, and maybe provide bullpen depth going forward after a rehab stint at AAA.

mattfeet
04-03-2012, 02:15 PM
I think this is a killer move. He can start the year on the DL, and maybe provide bullpen depth going forward after a rehab stint at AAA.

:lol:

membengal
04-03-2012, 02:36 PM
Nice flier. VERY live arm.

mace
04-03-2012, 02:38 PM
Plus, he's 6-foot-6. Fits right in.

Bumstead
04-03-2012, 02:51 PM
Championship!

Sea Ray
04-03-2012, 02:52 PM
He's 31 yrs old

PuffyPig
04-03-2012, 02:57 PM
xFIP of 4.23 last year, with a 1.1 WAR.

Seems like a nice arm and risk to take.

*BaseClogger*
04-03-2012, 03:07 PM
Don't the Orioles need guys like this? They're god awful...

UKFlounder
04-03-2012, 03:14 PM
I wonder what Simon says about this move...

klw
04-03-2012, 03:39 PM
Hopefully Alfredo is not on the sauce.

mattfeet
04-03-2012, 04:04 PM
Hopefully Alfredo is not on the sauce.

:lol::eek::lol:

RedsManRick
04-03-2012, 04:08 PM
A replacement-level arm (or slightly above replacement) with some upside available for free? Yes, please.

Blitz Dorsey
04-03-2012, 04:21 PM
I love having a GM that knows what he's doing.

klw
04-03-2012, 04:37 PM
Well the question becomes: If Simon joins the 25 man roster, who goes off of it? do they carry 12 and sent Frazier down or does a pitcher go on the DL?

REDREAD
04-03-2012, 04:40 PM
I wonder if Alfredo gets put on the 25 man roster and then bumped off when the relievers come off the DL.

I could see Bray and/or Masset possibly starting the season on the DL.I don't know for sure, but that seems a likely scenerio to start the season.

Vottomatic
04-03-2012, 04:40 PM
I wonder what Simon says about this move...

He says.......oops......I'm out of the game........I forgot to say "Simon says".......:D

Vottomatic
04-03-2012, 04:41 PM
Hopefully Alfredo is not on the sauce.

And hopefully his arm isn't a limp noodle.

reds1869
04-03-2012, 04:43 PM
I wonder if Alfredo gets put on the 25 man roster and then bumped off when the relievers come off the DL.

There is a whole lot of subconscious posting going on in this thread. :laugh:

I love this waiver claim. Nothing to lose and a live arm to gain.

klw
04-03-2012, 04:47 PM
And hopefully his arm isn't a limp noodle.

More likely he will bring the cheese and can't be creamed.

Roy Tucker
04-03-2012, 05:05 PM
So, how did the Reds manage to get him off the waiver wire? I would think there are other teams above (or below) the Reds that would snatch him up beforethe Reds had a shot. Not that I'm complaining, but I'm more curious....

Blitz Dorsey
04-03-2012, 05:22 PM
So, how did the Reds manage to get him off the waiver wire? I would think there are other teams above (or below) the Reds that would snatch him up beforethe Reds had a shot. Not that I'm complaining, but I'm more curious....

I would guess that rosters are so tight and decisions are so tough right now that teams didn't want to cut one of their projected 25 players from their Opening Day roster. Also, there might have been teams behind the Reds on the wire that claimed him. Simon is probably most-valuable to a contending team. If you're a young team building for the future, you're probably not going to cut one of your guys to make room for him. But I agree, it is a bit surprising that no one else claimed him.

RedsManRick
04-03-2012, 05:22 PM
So, how did the Reds manage to get him off the waiver wire? I would think there are other teams above (or below) the Reds that would snatch him up beforethe Reds had a shot. Not that I'm complaining, but I'm more curious....

This time of year, most teams are scrambling to find spots on their 40 man roster. It's unusual to have room.

RED VAN HOT
04-03-2012, 05:23 PM
His peripherals are not particularly impressive. If they can put him on the DL, then get a look at him during rehab, I like the move. Without such an audition, he does not appear to be worthy of a 25 man roster spot.

Vottomatic
04-03-2012, 05:34 PM
Until he starts knocking off hitters consistently, I'll consider alot of this a dead issue.

Kc61
04-03-2012, 05:40 PM
So, how did the Reds manage to get him off the waiver wire? I would think there are other teams above (or below) the Reds that would snatch him up beforethe Reds had a shot. Not that I'm complaining, but I'm more curious....

Simple.

Johnny Footstool
04-03-2012, 05:41 PM
He's worth a shot.

Danny Serafini
04-03-2012, 06:33 PM
His peripherals are not particularly impressive. If they can put him on the DL, then get a look at him during rehab, I like the move. Without such an audition, he does not appear to be worthy of a 25 man roster spot.

I'm with this, I don't really see the excitement in this pickup.

mth123
04-03-2012, 07:39 PM
Some one else's turd stinks less than your own simply because its farther away. Not really better than some of our roster filler IMO, but an added body who may yet save us from being subjected to Willie Harris.

klw
04-03-2012, 08:10 PM
Until he starts knocking off hitters consistently, I'll consider alot of this a dead issue.

What if the hitters go ballistic on him?

Roy Tucker
04-03-2012, 08:56 PM
Simple.

Of course.

lollipopcurve
04-03-2012, 09:35 PM
Good arm -- worth a look as a reliever.

REDREAD
04-03-2012, 11:57 PM
So, how did the Reds manage to get him off the waiver wire? I would think there are other teams above (or below) the Reds that would snatch him up beforethe Reds had a shot. Not that I'm complaining, but I'm more curious....

Well, honestly, he kind of sucks.. despite throwing hard.
I'm not complaining about this signing, but hard to get excited about it.

RedlegJake
04-04-2012, 12:11 AM
He has a live arm that he's never really harnessed. He throws hard. Emphasis on throws as opposed to pitches. He's a nice pickup to stash away on the D/L for a later look see - possible use. Whenever you can grab a live arm - a guy that can chuck it up there 94-95 you want that arm. Rules/options/waivers etc keep things always changing on the fringes so its great when you can grab an arm like this to replace guys you lose off your own roster in the same process.

BuckeyeRedleg
04-04-2012, 11:47 PM
http://releasepoints.com/2012/03/31/new-baltimore-regime-committing-same-old-mistakes/

powersackers
04-05-2012, 12:30 AM
I know he's our 25th man. But he gives up way too many HRs for my taste. That tells me his 94mph heater is very straight and poorly located at times. I'd rather see someone from our system show what he can do. I predict a neck strain DL stint from watching HRs fly out of GABP for Simon.

Ghosts of 1990
04-07-2012, 06:03 AM
Simon says....murder someone in another country.

membengal
04-07-2012, 06:36 AM
Simon says....murder someone in another country.

Subtle.

Joseph
04-08-2012, 09:43 AM
Well those of you who predicted a straight fastball and HR's in GABP are off to a good start in the prognostication categry.

lollipopcurve
04-08-2012, 10:09 AM
Simon got hurt on his fastball. He didn't start throwing breaking stuff until after Buck's HR. Then struck out the next 3, including Reyes and Bonifacio. Don't give up on him yet. He's got decent stuff.

Vottomatic
04-08-2012, 11:12 AM
He needs to locate his fastball anywhere but right down the middle of the plate. Masset does that crap too. Set them up with a well located fastball barely on the edge or missing the strike zone, and then hit them with the offspeed and breaking stuff.

cincinnati chili
04-08-2012, 11:58 AM
I think this guy is a waste of the Reds and Orioles time. He'll be 31 in a month. he's never been successful at the major league level, and oh by the way there's a chance he killed somebody and got away with it.

I'm all for looking at advanced metrics to see if ERA doesn't tell a pitcher's full story, but I think this guy has had plenty of chances to throw strikes and miss bats. He doesn't do either.

mth123
04-08-2012, 12:07 PM
I think this guy is a waste of the Reds and Orioles time. He'll be 31 in a month. he's never been successful at the major league level, and oh by the way there's a chance he killed somebody and got away with it.

I'm all for looking at advanced metrics to see if ERA doesn't tell a pitcher's full story, but I think this guy has had plenty of chances to throw strikes and miss bats. He doesn't do either.

Agreed.

Sometimes we look so hard we miss the obvious. The Reds had simialr choices in AAA. If they were going to claim somebody, it should have been a LH bat.

reds1869
04-08-2012, 12:21 PM
He certainly looked abysmal last night.

*BaseClogger*
04-09-2012, 01:49 AM
He certainly looked abysmal last night.

Abysmal? He struck out the side...

fearofpopvol1
04-09-2012, 01:59 AM
Abysmal? He struck out the side...

And gave up a 2 run-shot that put the game out of reach.

Simon looks to me like the guy you'd keep in AAA as injury insurance, but not the guy you want on the big league club. I assume once Masset is healthy, he'll be the first one to go.

lollipopcurve
04-09-2012, 06:57 AM
I assume once Masset is healthy, he'll be the first one to go

Could be. Could also be Lecure who has not thrown well in a while. Tough first outing, poor spring and he did not finish well in 2011. I'm a big Lecure fan, but....

Simon's got a live arm and he can strike people out. Give him a few appearances before making a final judgment.

cumberlandreds
04-09-2012, 08:19 AM
Don't the Orioles need guys like this? They're god awful...

I was away on vacation for a few days and didn't even know the Reds had picked him up until he came into the game Saturday night.
I think it says a lot that pitching starved Orioles waived this guy. I have seen him pitch for the Orioles and yes he throws hard but down the middle for the most part. I guess the Reds just needed someone to fill in for Masset and he was the best available at the time. I really don't expect him to stick around for long though.

fearofpopvol1
04-09-2012, 01:55 PM
Could be. Could also be Lecure who has not thrown well in a while. Tough first outing, poor spring and he did not finish well in 2011. I'm a big Lecure fan, but....

Simon's got a live arm and he can strike people out. Give him a few appearances before making a final judgment.

I've looked at Simon's career stats and I'm not impressed. LeCure has shown a better ability over a longer period of time. LeCure is usually used in the mop-up role situation anyhow.

lollipopcurve
04-09-2012, 02:56 PM
I've looked at Simon's career stats and I'm not impressed. LeCure has shown a better ability over a longer period of time. LeCure is usually used in the mop-up role situation anyhow.

Watch both guys throw for a few games, too. Simon has better pure stuff than Lecure. I like Sam, but he has not been very effective going back to the last couple months of 2011.

LvJ
04-09-2012, 03:04 PM
Watch both guys throw for a few games, too. Simon has better pure stuff than Lecure. I like Sam, but he has not been very effective going back to the last couple months of 2011.

But. Mustache.

fearofpopvol1
04-09-2012, 03:06 PM
Watch both guys throw for a few games, too. Simon has better pure stuff than Lecure. I like Sam, but he has not been very effective going back to the last couple months of 2011.

So did Volquez. "Better pure stuff" doesn't mean more outs and better numbers.

LeCure is 3 years younger and as I mentioned before, is in a different role than what Simon would be. I'll take my chances with LeCure moving forward in a mop-up kind of role.

Would you prefer Simon on the club over Masset?

lollipopcurve
04-09-2012, 03:54 PM
So did Volquez. "Better pure stuff" doesn't mean more outs and better numbers.

LeCure is 3 years younger and as I mentioned before, is in a different role than what Simon would be. I'll take my chances with LeCure moving forward in a mop-up kind of role.

Would you prefer Simon on the club over Masset?

My thinking is that you need to see both guys multiple times. All I know is that Simon was throwing 95, and he struck out both Reyes and Bonifacio with a flurry of breaking balls. That's enough for me to keep running him out there.

I'll take Simon over Masset if Masset has a bum shoulder and is throwing 87 with no command. Obviously, if Masset is back to his old self, it's no contest. I wouldn't plug Masset back into the pen after he throws a couple side sessions -- send him to AAA on rehab.

To make smart decisions, they have to go on more than what a guy has done in the past. They have to look clearly at what he is capable of now.

fearofpopvol1
04-09-2012, 04:17 PM
My thinking is that you need to see both guys multiple times. All I know is that Simon was throwing 95, and he struck out both Reyes and Bonifacio with a flurry of breaking balls. That's enough for me to keep running him out there.

I'll take Simon over Masset if Masset has a bum shoulder and is throwing 87 with no command. Obviously, if Masset is back to his old self, it's no contest. I wouldn't plug Masset back into the pen after he throws a couple side sessions -- send him to AAA on rehab.

To make smart decisions, they have to go on more than what a guy has done in the past. They have to look clearly at what he is capable of now.

Simon does not have an impressive walk rate and he gives up a pretty sizable number of home runs. For the record, his career K rates aren't all that impressive either. I think you're high on him based on 1 performance. The body of work says he's nothing to be too excited about (though he did have a career year last year).

lollipopcurve
04-09-2012, 04:24 PM
I think you're high on him based on 1 performance.

Since when does "worth a shot" and "let's see more of him" qualify as "high on him"?

I'm simply objecting to declarations of his worthlessness based on the fact that he gave up a home run.

Patrick Bateman
04-09-2012, 04:25 PM
Simon does not have an impressive walk rate and he gives up a pretty sizable number of home runs. For the record, his career K rates aren't all that impressive either. I think you're high on him based on 1 performance. The body of work says he's nothing to be too excited about (though he did have a career year last year).

I don't think he's saying he's "high" on him. He's simply saying that basing him on one inning is not enough to go on (like you suggested earlier, especially when he did happen to rebound very well after a bad start).

The guy clearly has interesting stuff, and if he is able to harness it, he could be a very good reliever (he would hardly be the first reliever with good stuff to need time to figure it out).

Last year as a starter, he started showing some major league ability for the first time. I wouldn't be that surprised if he was able to up his performance in the bullpen. If he doesn't so what, nothing ventured... nothing gained.

fearofpopvol1
04-09-2012, 04:53 PM
I don't think he's saying he's "high" on him. He's simply saying that basing him on one inning is not enough to go on (like you suggested earlier, especially when he did happen to rebound very well after a bad start).

The guy clearly has interesting stuff, and if he is able to harness it, he could be a very good reliever (he would hardly be the first reliever with good stuff to need time to figure it out).

Last year as a starter, he started showing some major league ability for the first time. I wouldn't be that surprised if he was able to up his performance in the bullpen. If he doesn't so what, nothing ventured... nothing gained.

In fairness, that was in regards to an original post that said, "He certainly looked abysmal last night."

Sorry, but giving up a 2 run jack (even if he struck out the side) is abysmal.

fearofpopvol1
04-09-2012, 04:57 PM
Since when does "worth a shot" and "let's see more of him" qualify as "high on him"?

I'm simply objecting to declarations of his worthlessness based on the fact that he gave up a home run.

To which I pointed out that his career stats aren't impressive and he's 31 years old. You mentioned his stuff and I mentioned that Volquez had stuff too.

We can agree to disagree if you like, but it's not like 1 appearance should magically swing the pendulum 1 way or the other. The total body of work is what I'm interested in and Simon's hasn't been very impressive save for last year. Maybe he's an anomaly, but history doesn't usually favor it for guys who have hit 30.

RED VAN HOT
04-09-2012, 05:44 PM
I wasn't a fan of this move. On second thought, however, I can see the logic in it. The Reds had indicated that they would probably add a 12th pitcher soon anyway. Moreover, they had an opening on the 40. This move gave them the opportunity to audition Simon for very little cost. If he does not perform well, they can DFA him. It seems unlikely that he would be claimed and he might accept an assignment to Louisville and provide additional bullpen depth. I suspect that Walt was waiting for a team to waive a pitcher at the final roster cuts. I am not sure the Reds ever intended to start the season with 11 pitchers.

*BaseClogger*
04-09-2012, 06:44 PM
In fairness, that was in regards to an original post that said, "He certainly looked abysmal last night."

Sorry, but giving up a 2 run jack (even if he struck out the side) is abysmal.

Did you actually watch him pitch? Call me silly, but I was impressed. He made an adjustment, incorporated an effective off-speed pitch, and dominated some really good hitters...

Patrick Bateman
04-09-2012, 07:23 PM
In fairness, that was in regards to an original post that said, "He certainly looked abysmal last night."

Sorry, but giving up a 2 run jack (even if he struck out the side) is abysmal.

There is a difference between an abysmal line score and "looking abysmal".
Essentially everytime that a reliever gives up a run, his line is "abysmal" because there is no time to rebound in 1-2 innings.

Simon looked about as good as one can for a 1 inning 2 run performance. He's not god, but he appears to have some ability, and if him and the staff can make the right adjustment he has a chance to be a decent reliver. It's one game, and like everything else, time will play this one out.

Captain Hook
04-09-2012, 10:04 PM
Looked ok tonight.Another K in 2/3 of an inning.I believe that's 4 in 1 2/3 IP so far.He should have some success if he keeps that up.

*BaseClogger*
04-09-2012, 10:08 PM
And the guy he K'd was Berkman...

Danny Serafini
04-09-2012, 10:31 PM
Looked ok tonight.Another K in 2/3 of an inning.I believe that's 4 in 1 2/3 IP so far.He should have some success if he keeps that up.

He pitched the 9th as well. Full line for the night was 1.2IP, 1H, 1BB, 3K, 1WP

CrackerJack
04-09-2012, 10:52 PM
He pitched the 9th as well. Full line for the night was 1.2IP, 1H, 1BB, 3K, 1WP

Sadly (or thankfully) he seems to be the most effective middle reliever they have so far.

Edd Roush
04-10-2012, 09:59 AM
I had seats in 127 last night and I came away very impressed with Simon last night. He was sitting around 94 with his fastball and he showed an impressive breaking ball and change-up. He seemed to have a great repertoire, but was inconsistent. By the way, I don't think Hanigan was ready for the pitch that became a wild pitch. Hanigan usually does a great job of blocking balls and he really struggled with that pitch. I am willing to see more of Simon after his appearance last night. I could see the upside.

lollipopcurve
04-10-2012, 10:13 AM
Among his K victims so far: Reyes, Berkman, Freese.

oregonred
04-10-2012, 11:11 AM
I just think it would be good for Simon's ego to get this thread over the 100 post mark :)

jojo
04-10-2012, 11:21 AM
He's been a flyball pitcher against righties and they've tee'd off on him for too many homers. I think that is the thing that will make or break him as a useful bullpen arm.

It'll probably break him but certainly there's no harm in rooting for him.

cbowen2112
04-10-2012, 01:34 PM
He actually looks very confident out there, which is huge. Many times relievers (Arredondo as an example) will go out there, throw strikes that get called balls and implode. Simon, once he got his feet wet in our ballpark, actually has been throwing well. Yes, a bit wild at times, but he comes back and attacks guys. He is not scared of the name on the back of the jersey. Something, Bailey can learn to do hopefully soon.

In fact, Bailey's issue last night seemed to be the name on the front of the Jersey, just as much as the back.

fearofpopvol1
04-12-2012, 07:11 PM
I didn't see the outing today, so maybe it wasn't too bad. However, the line (and loss) suggests it wasn't such a great outing either.

jojo
04-12-2012, 07:13 PM
I didn't see the outing today, so maybe it wasn't too bad. However, the line (and loss) suggests it wasn't such a great outing either.

He got tremendous movement on the pitch that ended the game.

reds1869
04-12-2012, 07:20 PM
As I mentioned in the game thread, to me Simon is a bullpen version of Volquez. He has great stuff and may be capable of putting together a nice run of dominant performances, but he'll never be consistently good. Dusty is rolling the dice every time he calls for Simon.

mth123
04-12-2012, 07:29 PM
As I mentioned in the game thread, to me Simon is a bullpen version of Volquez. He has great stuff and may be capable of putting together a nice run of dominant performances, but he'll never be consistently good. Dusty is rolling the dice every time he calls for Simon.

Lets not fool ourselves here. Simon is a 31 y/o journeyman who never has been able to establish himself in the big leagues and was cut by the team with the worst pitching staff in the majors. He's purely 12th man roster filler to be used to soak up innings when the Reds are getting blown out or as the last option when the team runs out of pitchers. Neither of those situations were present today. If there is some grand plan of building confidence for later, its misplaced on this particular pitcher. He's here as roster filler until Masset gets healthy or one of the younger guys gets hot and knocks the door down for a spot. There was no justifiable reason that he was in that game today with Marshall available, Bray warming and Ondrusek not yet used.

VR
04-12-2012, 07:35 PM
Oh dear.....I know they lost, but didn't realize it was on a wild pitch.

Cedric
04-12-2012, 07:38 PM
Lets not fool ourselves here. Simon is a 31 y/o journeyman who never has been able to establish himself in the big leagues and was cut by the team with the worst pitching staff in the majors. He's purely 12th man roster filler to be used to soak up innings when the Reds are getting blown out or as the last option when the team runs out of pitchers. Neither of those situations were present today. If there is some grand plan of building confidence for later, its misplaced on this particular pitcher. He's here as roster filler until Masset gets healthy or one of the younger guys gets hot and knocks the door down for a spot. There was no justifiable reason that he was in that game today with Marshall available, Bray warming and Ondrusek not yet used.

That's the problem with Dusty in a nutshell. You can't have a "filler" guy because he doesn't exactly know how to evaluate when someone is good or bad at baseball.

LoganBuck
04-12-2012, 07:45 PM
Get the torches and pitchforks, it is time to storm the bastille.

reds1869
04-12-2012, 07:47 PM
I think we have found our 2012 Whipping Boy. My money was on Harris but as long as Simon is on the team he will dominate that competition.

mth123
04-12-2012, 07:54 PM
I think we have found our 2012 Whipping Boy. My money was on Harris but as long as Simon is on the team he will dominate that competition.

Like Willy before him, Its not Simon's fault that he's not star material, but the guy who tries to use him as such.....

membengal
04-12-2012, 07:58 PM
I think we have found our 2012 Whipping Boy. My money was on Harris but as long as Simon is on the team he will dominate that competition.

I always have issues with the assignation of the term "whipping boy" which connotes, at its heart, someone unfairly singled out.

Not sure irritation with Simon's presence on the team or Dusty's usage of him is "unfair"...

Degenerate39
04-12-2012, 08:04 PM
I think we have found our 2012 Whipping Boy. My money was on Harris but as long as Simon is on the team he will dominate that competition.

I don't think it's as much Simon as it is how Baker uses him. If the Reds are losing big hell I'm all for letting Simon work a few innings. But a tie game in extra innings? He shouldn't be anywhere near the mound until he can prove he can. The Reds have a chance to make the playoffs this year and they can't afford to lose games like this.

HokieRed
04-12-2012, 08:12 PM
Josh Judy has worked two scoreless tonight with 5 K's. There may be hope.

WVRedsFan
04-12-2012, 08:36 PM
My rule of thumb is that if a club that is poor releases someone, you need to be very careful. If we had Dave Duncan as a pitching coach, he could maybe fix him, but some are not fixable (Volquez, Simon, etc.). Dusty has a habit of using guys that make fans shake their heads. This is one of them. If Simon could be fixed, send him to the minors. Don't throw him to the wolves in close games. My guess is he is a mess and cannot be fixed.

The Voice of IH
04-12-2012, 09:18 PM
He got tremendous movement on the pitch that ended the game.

If you don't laugh you'll cry :laugh:

757690
04-12-2012, 09:22 PM
Lets not fool ourselves here. Simon is a 31 y/o journeyman who never has been able to establish himself in the big leagues and was cut by the team with the worst pitching staff in the majors. He's purely 12th man roster filler to be used to soak up innings when the Reds are getting blown out or as the last option when the team runs out of pitchers. Neither of those situations were present today. If there is some grand plan of building confidence for later, its misplaced on this particular pitcher. He's here as roster filler until Masset gets healthy or one of the younger guys gets hot and knocks the door down for a spot. There was no justifiable reason that he was in that game today with Marshall available, Bray warming and Ondrusek not yet used.

Ondrusek was unavailable in today's game, due to working 4 out of the last 5 days.

The reason why Simon was used was because Marshall needed to be held back for a save in case the Reds ever scored in the top of their inning, and Bray was being held back until there were lefties to face. Why Bray didn't come in to face the lefty once runners were in scoring position, however, is beyond me.

Tom Servo
04-12-2012, 09:32 PM
Simon kinda reminds me of Esteban Yan in his Reds stint.

Hollcat
04-12-2012, 10:42 PM
Oh dear.....I know they lost, but didn't realize it was on a wild pitch.

And that runner (Zimmerman) was on base because Simon plunked him with his first pitch of the inning.

MartyFan
04-12-2012, 10:56 PM
Lets not fool ourselves here. Simon is a 31 y/o journeyman who never has been able to establish himself in the big leagues and was cut by the team with the worst pitching staff in the majors. He's purely 12th man roster filler to be used to soak up innings when the Reds are getting blown out or as the last option when the team runs out of pitchers. Neither of those situations were present today. If there is some grand plan of building confidence for later, its misplaced on this particular pitcher. He's here as roster filler until Masset gets healthy or one of the younger guys gets hot and knocks the door down for a spot. There was no justifiable reason that he was in that game today with Marshall available, Bray warming and Ondrusek not yet used.

AMEN!

I just got home and feared that this board would be KILLING Simon because he didn't do ANYTHING right...and you know what...as soon as I heard the call that Dusty was putting him in I thought...this game is done. This guy would be fine in the EXACT situation you mentioned above...a blow out either way...to save the other arms.

I DO NOT blame Simon, like has been stated, the guy has some incredible stuff but for whatever reason he has never been able to find the right combination to bring it all together...I wish he would do that for the Reds but this is a shining example as to why I am calling for Dusty Baker to be fired now!

FIRE DUSTY BAKER!!!

FREE PETE MACKANIN!!!

VR
04-12-2012, 11:07 PM
And that runner (Zimmerman) was on base because Simon plunked him with his first pitch of the inning.

enough, make it stop

redsfaninbsg
04-12-2012, 11:19 PM
Seven games in and Dusty has already miss-used the pen twice. Bruce and Rolen bailed him out the first time; he wasn't as lucky today. Baker is not a very good in game manger, his strengths lie within being a "players manager" (or so I hear?). Regardless, it's down right brutal to watch him manage in the late innings.

RedEye
04-12-2012, 11:37 PM
Seven games in and Dusty has already miss-used the pen twice. Bruce and Rolen bailed him out the first time; he wasn't as lucky today. Baker is not a very good in game manger, his strengths lie within being a "players manager" (or so I hear?). Regardless, it's down right brutal to watch him manage in the late innings.

It is so weird the parallels between Dusty and Marvin Lewis sometimes. Great people coaches, not so good at game logistics.

Not to take this thread off topic... sorry.

cincinnati chili
04-13-2012, 12:01 AM
I've been saying that the loss of Madson has been overblown, but those of you who are trying to measure the damage of losing him should remember today. If the worst pitcher on the staff is Arredondo or Ondrusek, that's pretty good. But if our "replacement level" fill-in guy is below replacement level, we're going to lost games that we might have otherwise won.

lollipopcurve
04-13-2012, 07:14 AM
I've been saying that Simon should be given a chance to show what he has. Yesterday was not good. I wouldn't give him the boot quite yet -- but I like what I've seen of JJ Hoover at Louisville.

puca
04-13-2012, 07:33 AM
I've been saying that the loss of Madson has been overblown, but those of you who are trying to measure the damage of losing him should remember today. If the worst pitcher on the staff is Arredondo or Ondrusek, that's pretty good. But if our "replacement level" fill-in guy is below replacement level, we're going to lost games that we might have otherwise won.

If Simon is the worst pitcher on the staff then he has no business in the game in that situation. As others have pointed out it is not that hard to hide a bad pitcher. But for some reason Dusty is parading Simon out there as if he is a setup man.

Sometimes I think Dusty does things to make Walt look bad.

Redhook
04-13-2012, 07:43 AM
It is so weird the parallels between Dusty and Marvin Lewis sometimes. Great people coaches, not so good at game logistics.

Very true. Good people, but bad in-game decision makers.

Roy Tucker
04-13-2012, 08:06 AM
I said this in the game thread and I'll repeat it here. Sometimes I think Dusty puts showing confidence in a guy above winning the game.

bucksfan2
04-13-2012, 08:38 AM
Seven games in and Dusty has already miss-used the pen twice. Bruce and Rolen bailed him out the first time; he wasn't as lucky today. Baker is not a very good in game manger, his strengths lie within being a "players manager" (or so I hear?). Regardless, it's down right brutal to watch him manage in the late innings.

I don't see how Dusty really mismanaged the pen. The biggest problem of the game was Latos only going 5 innings. If Ondrusek was unavailable then the pen was shortened already. I would imagine that the Reds were giving Chapman a day off because he went to innings the day before. The reason Marshall wasn't put into the game is something every manager does when playing on the road. They often hold the closer back unless they have a lead. Simon had to go at least an inning because if the doesn't Bray and Marshall are the only ones left. Bray is a situational lefty and Marshall is a closer, not someone who you want going more than an inning often.

redsmetz
04-13-2012, 08:58 AM
I said this in the game thread and I'll repeat it here. Sometimes I think Dusty puts showing confidence in a guy above winning the game.

I'm not quite sure what folks really expected Baker to be able to do in this particular game situation.

Latos went only five innings. Going into the game, we knew that Chapman and Ondrusek would not be available because of previous use. LeCure pitched two innings, followed by Arredondo doing the same.

That left Simon, Bray and Marshall. The game is tied in extra innings with, conceivably, no end in sight. We have to acknowledge that fact.

Part of the problem is that we'd used the two long guys who may go long already, both for two inning stints. In a game like this, that's not surprising. Then the game gets tied. Another big problem is Bray is limited as to how much he can go. Likewise, Marshall as the closer is not a long guy.

What other option did Dusty have? Let's say he brings Bray in to face Bernardina and gets the final out? Bray can come out in the 11th and then he's done. If we've made it through that, that leaves only Marshall among the relievers. Or we go to one of our starters (not sure who was up there), but what do we do if we're going 2 to 3 or 4 or 5 innings more?

Complain about Baker all you want, but the larger issue is on one hand, Bray's inability to pitch much now and whether Simon's good enough to help this club (I'm not convinced). That's not a manager issue, that's a GM issue. I didn't see a reasonable option in this game, given that if we aren't going to score, we have to assume a game can go on forever. And then it's either Bray, Marshall or one of the starters eating innings. Even to this day, we continue to hear about Harang pitching those multiple innings in San Diego.

WildcatFan
04-13-2012, 09:16 AM
I've been saying that Simon should be given a chance to show what he has. Yesterday was not good. I wouldn't give him the boot quite yet -- but I like what I've seen of JJ Hoover at Louisville.

I'd be more confident with Hoover than Simon. Judy and Brackman have also pitched well; I'm sure all three are getting a good look this weekend.

Roy Tucker
04-13-2012, 09:19 AM
I guess I'd make a lousy manager. I'm like Herm Edwards and "you win the game". But when the game is in the balance like it was yesterday, if you don't get through the game crisis that is happening right now, it really doesn't matter who you have left to face a lefty or to close the game. Because you are going to lose the game *right now* and they will remain unfired bullets.

So there are 2 philosophies. First, put Simon in and hope for the best. Leave him out there to weather the crisis. I can maybe buy putting him out there to start the inning, but if and when he starts going south, you manage the very real and present crisis and get Bray or Marshall in to get you over the hump.

Or get the good bullpen guys in earlier in extra innings. If you get into the teens of extras, then OK, put Simon out there and roll the dice because you really don't have many options left. I would have been fine with that. But I'd rather see Simon at the end of the option trail than the beginning.

Oh well, we'll get 'em today.

redsmetz
04-13-2012, 09:20 AM
I'd be more confident with Hoover than Simon. Judy and Brackman have also pitched well; I'm sure all three are getting a good look this weekend.

I'd like to see the club attempt to have Simon clear waivers and put him in AAA. Obviously there's a chance they opts for free agency, but that would be no loss. He may not do that, given that the Reds have given him a shot after the O's released him. If he does, I'm not going to lose any sleep over him going elsewhere.

Patrick Bateman
04-13-2012, 09:40 AM
I certainly don't think anybody was in favour of having Simon pitching in key situations. It is what it is. The Madson loss was significant.

CySeymour
04-13-2012, 09:50 AM
With all this being said, and I certainly have been critical of how Dusty used the pen yesterday, don't you guys also think a whole lot of other managers would have done the same thing Dusty did? So before we call for Baker's head, you'd better make sure whoever they brought in would be the anti-Dusty.

REDREAD
04-13-2012, 09:56 AM
Lets not fool ourselves here. Simon is a 31 y/o journeyman who never has been able to establish himself in the big leagues and was cut by the team with the worst pitching staff in the majors. He's purely 12th man roster filler to be used to soak up innings when the Reds are getting blown out or as the last option when the team runs out of pitchers. Neither of those situations were present today. If there is some grand plan of building confidence for later, its misplaced on this particular pitcher. He's here as roster filler until Masset gets healthy or one of the younger guys gets hot and knocks the door down for a spot. There was no justifiable reason that he was in that game today with Marshall available, Bray warming and Ondrusek not yet used.

I agree 100% I have defended Dusty in the past, but this was inexcusable.
Simon should only be put in a tie game when there's no other available pitchers.
I am sure Dusty is trying to be nice and save the guys career, but come on :angry: That was one of the dumbest moves I've seen Dusty make.

Simon will most likely be cut when the rest of the pen gets off the DL. The odds of Simon being with the team next year are almost zero. Simon should be thankful that he's not out of baseball now.. He needs to be in a mopup role only. Dusty needs to learn to deal with this.

REDREAD
04-13-2012, 10:03 AM
I'm not quite sure what folks really expected Baker to be able to do in this particular game situation.
.

Go with Bray for a full inning. Then go to Marshall.
That gives the Reds two more innings to try to score a run.

It doesn't matter that Bray and Marshall are lefties. Simon is so bad, the matchup is not going to be favorable to the Reds no matter what the handedness of the batter is.

Now I agree that the starting staff is already killing the bullpen and lead to this unfortunate situation. Arroyo is going to have to go about 7 IP tonight, whether he's effective or not.. Hopefully he can pull it off. IMO, this is one of the good things about Arroyo. He and Cueto are the only pitchers that can reliably go deep in games. Hopefully Latos gets there eventually.

lollipopcurve
04-13-2012, 10:03 AM
I disagree with the criticisms of the BP use yesterday. Simon had thrown well in his previous outing. Guys need the opportunity to step up -- I don't buy the notion that you semi-bury some guys in major league bullpens. The attendant issue here was that Dusty had used Ondrusek in 4 of the previous 5 days, including a one-batter stint on Wednesday. And that was attended by the fact that Cueto had only lasted 5. What this amounts to is that pitching staffs are going to be taxed from time to time and a manager needs to use everyone -- a process that should continue until he's got as many guys as possible that he feels he can count on in tough situations, while making an effort not to blow some guys out (as happened to both Ondrusek and Masset last year).

HokieRed
04-13-2012, 10:06 AM
Bullpen sanity (and perhaps Redszone sanity) clearly needs to begin with starters going more than 5 innings.

RedsManRick
04-13-2012, 10:29 AM
With all this being said, and I certainly have been critical of how Dusty used the pen yesterday, don't you guys also think a whole lot of other managers would have done the same thing Dusty did? So before we call for Baker's head, you'd better make sure whoever they brought in would be the anti-Dusty.

Agreed. I absolutely hated the move, but unfortunately, most managers refuse to use their closers to protect a tie on the road. Another case where you wonder how things would be different if the save stat didn't exist.

bucksfan2
04-13-2012, 10:54 AM
Agreed. I absolutely hated the move, but unfortunately, most managers refuse to use their closers to protect a tie on the road. Another case where you wonder how things would be different if the save stat didn't exist.

I think pretty much every manager in the game manages that game the same way. I also don't think it matters whether the save stat exists or doesn't anymore. It has become ingrained in the game that you have a "closer" to "close" the game out. It may have been popularized by the "save" but I don't think its going anywhere anytime soon.

crazybob60
04-13-2012, 11:04 AM
The Reds need to de-claim Alfredo Simon.

Kc61
04-13-2012, 11:10 AM
The Reds need to de-claim Alfredo Simon.

Yeah, that's my view too.

I think it was simply a poor decision to use Simon in that spot yesterday. Dusty also should have gone to Bray with men on base.

But the bottom line is that Simon's lifetime numbers do not justify a spot on the Reds.

lollipopcurve
04-13-2012, 11:20 AM
But the bottom line is that Simon's lifetime numbers do not justify a spot on the Reds.

Disagree with the premise that only lifetime numbers should be consulted when putting a roster together.

Hoosier Red
04-13-2012, 12:12 PM
Go with Bray for a full inning. Then go to Marshall.
That gives the Reds two more innings to try to score a run.

It doesn't matter that Bray and Marshall are lefties. Simon is so bad, the matchup is not going to be favorable to the Reds no matter what the handedness of the batter is.

Now I agree that the starting staff is already killing the bullpen and lead to this unfortunate situation. Arroyo is going to have to go about 7 IP tonight, whether he's effective or not.. Hopefully he can pull it off. IMO, this is one of the good things about Arroyo. He and Cueto are the only pitchers that can reliably go deep in games. Hopefully Latos gets there eventually.

I think you could make an argument either way, but if the closer is in fact the best reliever on staff, and you believe in having him close out games when you're ahead, there is a logic to waiting until after the other options had been used and/or you have a lead.

Unless there was a reason to expect the lineup to be harder in the 10th inning than the 11th or 12th, then it doesn't matter if you get from the 10th to the 11th only to blow the game in the 11th.

In a home game, it makes sense to use the best reliever in order to extend to another inning because if he succeeds, the worst case scenario is you have two at bats for the next opponents at bat.

If Marshall succeeded in getting the Reds to the 11th the best case scenario is you score and another reliever has to close the game out. The worst case scenario is you fail to score in the top of the inning, and the opponents have the same opportunity in the 11th that they would have had in the 10th. You gain no advantage.

RichRed
04-13-2012, 12:55 PM
I said this in the game thread, but even conceding that it was OK to pitch Simon in the 10th, there is no reason he should've been LEFT in there with clearly less-than-stellar control and the winning run on third base. Isn't that the exact sort of spot Bray was warming up for? Of the 16 pitches Simon threw, 7 were strikes.

Kc61
04-13-2012, 01:14 PM
Disagree with the premise that only lifetime numbers should be consulted when putting a roster together.

If a guy has consistently poor lifetime numbers, I think that would have a pretty meaningful role in deciding whether he belongs on the roster.

cbowen2112
04-13-2012, 01:19 PM
If he gets there to cover home plate in time and doesn't flinch. This would be a whole new ball of wax. I thought he could have gotten there faster, but still not sure Mez's throw gets Zimmerman. Mop up role for Simon is best. He would be a good for one of our patented 19 inning games against the Phillies later this year. Brackman looked pretty good down in AAA, but he was starting. We will have to live with this guy for a long while, until old Masset gets healthy.

redsmetz
04-13-2012, 01:25 PM
If he gets there to cover home plate in time and doesn't flinch. This would be a whole new ball of wax. I thought he could have gotten there faster, but still not sure Mez's throw gets Zimmerman. Mop up role for Simon is best. He would be a good for one of our patented 19 inning games against the Phillies later this year. Brackman looked pretty good down in AAA, but he was starting. We will have to live with this guy for a long while, until old Masset gets healthy.

That was one of my son's comments having been at the game - that Simon didn't get off the mound fast enough. Just looking at the video clip, I think you could be right that Mez might not have gotten the ball to him fast enough.

CesarGeronimo
04-13-2012, 01:35 PM
I said this in the game thread, but even conceding that it was OK to pitch Simon in the 10th, there is no reason he should've been LEFT in there with clearly less-than-stellar control and the winning run on third base. Isn't that the exact sort of spot Bray was warming up for? Of the 16 pitches Simon threw, 7 were strikes.

Last year, lefties batted .282 against Simon with a .351 OBP and .808 OPS.
Last year, lefties batted .180 against Bray with a .265 OBP and .557 OPS.

But the genius of Dusty Baker, of course, is that his intuition overrides mere numbers. All season, every season. He will turn away from seemingly obvious decisions and dustify us game after game with his unorthodox, yet also ineffective and futile, brilliance.

Kc61
04-13-2012, 01:39 PM
Last year, lefties batted .282 against Simon with a .351 OBP and .808 OPS.
Last year, lefties batted .180 against Bray with a .265 OBP and .557 OPS.

But the genius of Dusty Baker, of course, is that his intuition overrides mere numbers. All season, every season. He will turn away from seemingly obvious decisions and dustify us game after game with his unorthodox, yet also ineffective and futile, brilliance.

Didn't follow the game that carefully, but couldn't the Nats have pinch hit a righty against Bray?

LoganBuck
04-13-2012, 01:50 PM
Yesterday's 10th is on FSN right now

CesarGeronimo
04-13-2012, 01:51 PM
I think it says a lot that pitching starved Orioles waived this guy. I have seen him pitch for the Orioles and yes he throws hard but down the middle for the most part. I guess the Reds just needed someone to fill in for Masset and he was the best available at the time. I really don't expect him to stick around for long though.

Maybe he should change his named to Alfredo Sauce. He brings the cheese and opponents add the heavy cream.

bucksfan2
04-13-2012, 01:54 PM
Last year, lefties batted .282 against Simon with a .351 OBP and .808 OPS.
Last year, lefties batted .180 against Bray with a .265 OBP and .557 OPS.

But the genius of Dusty Baker, of course, is that his intuition overrides mere numbers. All season, every season. He will turn away from seemingly obvious decisions and dustify us game after game with his unorthodox, yet also ineffective and futile, brilliance.

Two arms left in the pen with one being a lefty specalist. You could bring Bray how long could he go? I would much rather have had Dusty do what he did than burn the pen and turn into a Mothers Day Fiasco that we love to rehash. There are times you need to manage for one game and also for an entire 162 game season.

LoganBuck
04-13-2012, 01:56 PM
Watching this again, you can see Mesoraco obviously frustrated behind the plate

CesarGeronimo
04-13-2012, 01:58 PM
Didn't follow the game that carefully, but couldn't the Nats have pinch hit a righty against Bray?

They could have and you still would have great improved the situation

Simon last year v. lefties
.282 BA, .351 OBP, .808 OPS

Bray last year v. righties
.226 BA, .290 OBP, .659 OPS

CesarGeronimo
04-13-2012, 02:05 PM
Two arms left in the pen with one being a lefty specalist. You could bring Bray how long could he go? I would much rather have had Dusty do what he did than burn the pen and turn into a Mothers Day Fiasco that we love to rehash. There are times you need to manage for one game and also for an entire 162 game season.

The Reds had three pitchers left in the bullpen - Bray, Ondrusek and Marshall. If you're not going to use Bray because you're playing for the 162-game season instead of the single game, why have in up in the bullpen warming up? Makes no sense.

lollipopcurve
04-13-2012, 02:12 PM
There are times you need to manage for one game and also for an entire 162 game season.

Really true. Lost on many.

bucksfan2
04-13-2012, 02:23 PM
The Reds had three pitchers left in the bullpen - Bray, Ondrusek and Marshall. If you're not going to use Bray because you're playing for the 162-game season instead of the single game, why have in up in the bullpen warming up? Makes no sense.

It has been noted earlier that Ondrusek was not pitching becasue he had thrown 4 times in 5 games.

What happens if that game goes 14 innings? At the time you have Simon on the mound with Bray who is probably limited to an inning max as well as Marshall who is the designated closer. You have to manage for possible situations that could arise later in the game, not in hindsight. If you wanna burn Ondrusek's arm early in the season again that is your perrogative.

*BaseClogger*
04-13-2012, 02:44 PM
In addition, we can't just toss around 2011 platoon splits for Simon and Bray. Simon made 16 starts in the AL East while Bray was a relief pitcher. They aren't all that comparable...

Roy Tucker
04-13-2012, 02:55 PM
Two arms left in the pen with one being a lefty specalist. You could bring Bray how long could he go? I would much rather have had Dusty do what he did than burn the pen and turn into a Mothers Day Fiasco that we love to rehash. There are times you need to manage for one game and also for an entire 162 game season.

I get the 162 game thing but I think you can do both. You don't go into desperation mode unless you have to. And I don't think they were.

Either putting Simon out there to begin with or leave him twisting in the wind just wasn't the best option in either single game or 162 game mode. At least IMO. If I've used Bray for an inning and then Marshall for 1-2 innings and we're still going, then you can bring in Simon for the 13th or 14th inning and ride him hard.

If he goes 2-3 innings and we're still tied after 15 innings, well then yeah, we're screwed and you bring in a starter or ask Ondrusek or Chapman to bite the bullet or see if Wilson Valdez has been playing around with a knuckleball. I get that. That's desperation mode. But handling your bullpen for the liklihood that you're going 15+ innings seems a bass-ackwards way of trying to win the game.

puca
04-13-2012, 02:56 PM
It has been noted earlier that Ondrusek was not pitching becasue he had thrown 4 times in 5 games.

What happens if that game goes 14 innings? At the time you have Simon on the mound with Bray who is probably limited to an inning max as well as Marshall who is the designated closer. You have to manage for possible situations that could arise later in the game, not in hindsight. If you wanna burn Ondrusek's arm early in the season again that is your perrogative.

But if you go back to Wednesday's game you have to wonder about the decisions that resulted in Logan even being used in that game.

I agree though, as long as the starting staff is only going 5-6 innings the bullpen will be exposed no matter what Dusty does.

RichRed
04-13-2012, 03:03 PM
I get the 162 game thing but I think you can do both. You don't go into desperation mode unless you have to. And I don't think they were.

Either putting Simon out there to begin with or leave him twisting in the wind just wasn't the best option in either single game or 162 game mode. At least IMO. If I've used Bray for an inning and then Marshall for 1-2 innings and we're still going, then you can bring in Simon for the 13th or 14th inning and ride him hard.

If he goes 2-3 innings and we're still tied after 15 innings, well then yeah, we're screwed and you bring in a starter or ask Ondrusek or Chapman to bite the bullet or see if Wilson Valdez has been playing around with a knuckleball. I get that. That's desperation mode. But handling your bullpen for the liklihood that you're going 15+ innings seems a bass-ackwards way of trying to win the game.

Exactly. What percentage of games goes that deep? Managing as if you expect something rare to happen just doesn't make logical sense to me.

And again, Simon had already plunked one guy and was struggling to throw strikes. Bray, our lefty specialist, was warming up, presumably, to face a lefty. Votto and Bruce were due up in the top of the 11th. That was just a strange way to manage the game at that juncture, in my opinion.

bucksfan2
04-13-2012, 03:29 PM
Exactly. What percentage of games goes that deep? Managing as if you expect something rare to happen just doesn't make logical sense to me.

And again, Simon had already plunked one guy and was struggling to throw strikes. Bray, our lefty specialist, was warming up, presumably, to face a lefty. Votto and Bruce were due up in the top of the 11th. That was just a strange way to manage the game at that juncture, in my opinion.

It took the Reds 9 innings to score two runs yesterday. Lets say you burn Bray in the 10th and manage to get out of the inning unscathed. That means for the rest of the game you have Marshall and pitchers who are off limits. Would you rather the Reds lost the game or have Chapman or Ondrusek hurt their arm in the 7th game? Would you really want them to run Leake out there because they don't have any arms in the pen left?

Situations like this happen in baseball. Its why you are forced to run Simon out there in the top of the 10th inning. At the end of the day its 1/162 of the season and more than half the time an average reliever gets you out of the inning without any harm being done.

jojo
04-13-2012, 03:30 PM
To be fair, while the Reds claimed Simon, they never claimed he was good.

RichRed
04-13-2012, 04:01 PM
It took the Reds 9 innings to score two runs yesterday. Lets say you burn Bray in the 10th and manage to get out of the inning unscathed. That means for the rest of the game you have Marshall and pitchers who are off limits. Would you rather the Reds lost the game or have Chapman or Ondrusek hurt their arm in the 7th game? Would you really want them to run Leake out there because they don't have any arms in the pen left?

Situations like this happen in baseball. Its why you are forced to run Simon out there in the top of the 10th inning. At the end of the day its 1/162 of the season and more than half the time an average reliever gets you out of the inning without any harm being done.

Why does this keep getting missed? Sure, put Simon in there to start the 10th. But once he hits a batter, allows a hit, can't throw a strike, why would you leave him in there to face a lefty with the tying run on 3rd and Bray warming up?

Bring Bray in and if he gets that batter, let him start the 11th. Then bring in Marshall for an inning or two if it goes that long (he's pitched 2 innings so far this year). THEN you can bring in Simon in the Carlos Fisher role. It was a backwards way to manage, assuming a game was going to go 15 innings or more. No matter how hard runs were to come by, the game was likely to be over well before then.

REDREAD
04-13-2012, 04:33 PM
To be fair, while the Reds claimed Simon, they never claimed he was good.

:lol:

redsmetz
04-13-2012, 04:58 PM
Why does this keep getting missed? Sure, put Simon in there to start the 10th. But once he hits a batter, allows a hit, can't throw a strike, why would you leave him in there to face a lefty with the tying run on 3rd and Bray warming up?

Bring Bray in and if he gets that batter, let him start the 11th. Then bring in Marshall for an inning or two if it goes that long (he's pitched 2 innings so far this year). THEN you can bring in Simon in the Carlos Fisher role. It was a backwards way to manage, assuming a game was going to go 15 innings or more. No matter how hard runs were to come by, the game was likely to be over well before then.

Not to quibble, but who got the first two outs of the 10th inning after which you're relieving with Bray? Who is Bray relieving? Seems to me, in this scenario, you're using Simon twice, but maybe I'm missing something.

RichRed
04-13-2012, 05:10 PM
Not to quibble, but who got the first two outs of the 10th inning after which you're relieving with Bray? Who is Bray relieving? Seems to me, in this scenario, you're using Simon twice, but maybe I'm missing something.

You're right, I mixed up two different scenarios in there. Basically, I don't like Simon in the 10th at all but once he's in there and struggles finding the strike zone, I want Bray facing Bernadina. He was warming up anyway.

I don't normally get too worked up about the machinations of one game, so I should probably just let it go. It's time for a beer anyway. :)

redsmetz
04-13-2012, 05:13 PM
You're right, I mixed up two different scenarios in there. Basically, I don't like Simon in the 10th at all but once he's in there and struggles finding the strike zone, I want Bray facing Bernadina. He was warming up anyway.

I don't normally get too worked up about the machinations of one game, so I should probably just let it go. It's time for a beer anyway. :)

Someone else posted on the game thread where I put my same question that's in this thread, that he would have gone with Bray in the 10th, Marshall in the 11th & 12th and then fallen on Simon for the duration should that be necessary. I don't think this was the huge mismanaging that folks have portrayed, just a different decision that failed to work this time. If Simon doesn't plunk Zimmerman or he gets Werth out, we're in the next inning. These things happen and when they do, more times than not, you lose the game. Such is life.

traderumor
04-13-2012, 11:40 PM
Tonight was the first look I've had at Simon's stuff. Dude's ball is moving all over the place. Problem is he doesn't seem to have command of the movement, thus is wild. Great, we needed another wild power pitcher coming out of the bullpen. Late innings walks are us. That always ends so well.

lollipopcurve
04-14-2012, 07:12 AM
Simon did a nice job last night -- two scoreless in a tie game. He's got good stuff. Keep running him out there.

The team is not dripping with bullpen depth, and there are 154 games left to play. A major league arm is a major league arm.

I'm pretty sure some folks take one look at a guy and make up their minds.

mth123
04-14-2012, 08:16 AM
Simon did a nice job last night -- two scoreless in a tie game. He's got good stuff. Keep running him out there.

The team is not dripping with bullpen depth, and there are 154 games left to play. A major league arm is a major league arm.

I'm pretty sure some folks take one look at a guy and make up their minds.

He did pitch well and he does have a good arm, but he's 31 on the best he's done is hang on the fringe of the major leagues. He's a 12th man on the staff type. Carlos Fisher has a good arm too. That's the class of pitcher he is and should be used as such.

traderumor
04-14-2012, 08:24 AM
Simon did a nice job last night -- two scoreless in a tie game. He's got good stuff. Keep running him out there.

The team is not dripping with bullpen depth, and there are 154 games left to play. A major league arm is a major league arm.

I'm pretty sure some folks take one look at a guy and make up their minds.
Too many walks historically though. This is a bullpen, with most of the guilty parties back, that walked too many last year. Adding another walk prone reliever is where I'm not sure he is a good answer to any question the bullpen had going in. I guess I'd be ok with him in his likely role, which is middle relief. He has better stuff than Jordan Smith.

reds1869
04-14-2012, 08:36 AM
He did pitch well and he does have a good arm, but he's 31 on the best he's done is hang on the fringe of the major leagues. He's a 12th man on the staff type. Carlos Fisher has a good arm too. That's the class of pitcher he is and should be used as such.

His track record doesn't lie. While he pitched well last night I'm going to guess he is more the guy on the back of his baseball card than the guy he has the potential to morph into. Of course it is always possible to bloom late in a career, and middle relief seems to be the place it is most likely. I hope Simon puts it together and can stick this time around. I just don't think it happens.

lollipopcurve
04-14-2012, 08:39 AM
Carlos Fisher has a good arm too. That's the class of pitcher he is and should be used as such.

Better arm than Fisher -- more pitches, more movement, more velo.

I'm not sure what "used as such" means. That he should never pitch in a close game? IMO, that's a ridiculous restriction to put on a manager. Every pitcher on a major league staff should have the ability to throw a scoreless inning more often than not. Simon clearly has that ability, and has already demonstrated it more than once. You keep running him out there until he shows he can't do it with any measure of consistency. Upside is there.

lollipopcurve
04-14-2012, 08:47 AM
Of course it is always possible to bloom late in a career, and middle relief seems to be the place it is most likely.

If a guy proves himself in a lesser role, he should be given the opportunity to pitch in more critical situations. There are way too many fluctuations in the demands made on a pitching staff to assume relievers can be assigned to specific innings only. A pushbutton bullpen will break down.

I am not saying Simon WILL do this or WILL do that. I am saying his stuff is intriguing enough that the team should see if he can pitch well consistently. Current stuff means more than current age or past performance.

The jury should remain out.

mth123
04-14-2012, 09:09 AM
Better arm than Fisher -- more pitches, more movement, more velo.

I'm not sure what "used as such" means. That he should never pitch in a close game? IMO, that's a ridiculous restriction to put on a manager. Every pitcher on a major league staff should have the ability to throw a scoreless inning more often than not. Simon clearly has that ability, and has already demonstrated it more than once. You keep running him out there until he shows he can't do it with any measure of consistency. Upside is there.

He's the 12th man, Its not restrictive at all. 12 pitchers is a luxury and the 12th man's jobs is to save the other guys for when its important. If its so restrictive how did managers get by for so long without a 12th pitcher? Use him in blow outs and as a last resort. That's how Fisher was used and ideally its how the Reds would use Lecure or Ondrusek when everyone is healthy.

lollipopcurve
04-14-2012, 09:15 AM
Use him in blow outs and as a last resort.

I get your drift, and it makes a certain amount of sense, but not complete sense. The problem comes in trying to define "last resort." If this is interpreted to mean that he should not pitch in any game that is "within reach," it's a bad idea. If it's interpreted to mean that a guy like Ondrusek or Masset should be allowed to go for the 4th time in 5 days, or the 3rd time in 4 days routinely, according to the "within reach" rule, it's a bad idea, IMO. You can't be so scared of using one guy in your pen that other guys get blown out.

mth123
04-14-2012, 09:48 AM
I get your drift, and it makes a certain amount of sense, but not complete sense. The problem comes in trying to define "last resort." If this is interpreted to mean that he should not pitch in any game that is "within reach," it's a bad idea. If it's interpreted to mean that a guy like Ondrusek or Masset should be allowed to go for the 4th time in 5 days, or the 3rd time in 4 days routinely, according to the "within reach" rule, it's a bad idea, IMO. You can't be so scared of using one guy in your pen that other guys get blown out.

Simple. Use him in blow outs, use him as the last pitcher of those available when a game goes extras (letting him go 4, 5 or even 6 innings the way Fisher did last year). Occassionally, maybe once every 5 or so days to get him work, bring him in when ahead or behind in a 2 or 3 run game to face the weaker hitters coming up in the opposing order, but with a short leash and never let him face the tying run. Otherwise, let the other guys carry the load.

Unassisted
04-14-2012, 10:38 AM
I thought it was interesting how much better Simon pitched with Hanigan catching than Mesoraco.

Kc61
04-14-2012, 10:50 AM
It's real early but the Reds have a 3.55 team ERA, better than average for the NL. And Simon did well yesterday and is likely an injury replacement for Masset anyway.

I don't know why the Reds got him, his career numbers aren't good, but he did look good last night and he was a starter so he will cover multiple innings.

But this team could have Ryan Madson, Mariano Rivera, Rollie Fingers, the Nasty Boys (all three) and Chapman in the bullpen and it wouldn't matter right now. Imagine a GABP team that can't hit. Right now, we've got one.

camisadelgolf
05-28-2012, 04:40 PM
So who still doesn't like this waiver claim?

20.2 IP
22 strikeouts
5 walks
1.26 WHIP
1.74 ERA

Tom Servo
05-28-2012, 04:46 PM
Simon is killin' em, I'm a fan.

reds1869
05-28-2012, 04:47 PM
I take back every bad thing I said about the guy. He has been successful beyond my wildest dreams.

BuckeyeRedleg
05-28-2012, 04:50 PM
Simon is killin' em, I'm a fan.

Yep, he's been great. A definite upgrade over Masset.

reds44
05-28-2012, 04:52 PM
I still don't trust him.

Tom Servo
05-28-2012, 04:55 PM
I still don't trust him.
You don't trust him to eat up innings?

reds44
05-28-2012, 04:58 PM
You don't trust him to eat up innings?
Sure, but that's about it.

mth123
05-28-2012, 05:09 PM
I still don't trust him.

With ya.

Joseph
05-28-2012, 05:25 PM
I'd like to see him pitch in some high leverage situations.

RedlegJake
05-28-2012, 05:30 PM
heck, I'd like to see him pitch. A couple of guys aren't getting used at all and I hope that doesn't bite us when the season stretches on. It's a nice problem to have, though, with the starters giving us enough innings that the pen isn't being overtaxed so the secondary guys are begging for work.

TOBTTReds
05-28-2012, 05:36 PM
I still don't trust him.

Same, but it doesn't mean he can't be used for roles like today and other games he's pitched in.

I don't think we picked him up to be a set-up man. Therefore I'd say this is a very successful claim, and probably surprised a few people within the FO. The second he was put on waivers, I was pretty excited thinking we had a real opportunity to get him. But I never thought he would do what he has.

Tony Cloninger
05-28-2012, 07:36 PM
He is going to pitch badly sometime but what more can one expect from this guy? I trust him to pitch in the middle and even some situations were the top 3 guys have been overused. What more do you want from this guy?

traderumor
05-28-2012, 08:23 PM
Dusty doesn't trust him either. He's been in one game that the Reds won so far, when he pitched the 9th with a 5-0 lead. He gets him work in a game the Reds are trailing, strictly mop up duty. I think this is an appropriate role for him, every bullpen needs guys like him. As he performs well, the Reds save a few innings for the better bullpen arms and he gives us a chance for a comeback.

marcshoe
05-28-2012, 11:32 PM
The Reds have no one in their bullpen who I think shouldn't be on the team. That's a very rare thing.

VR
05-28-2012, 11:41 PM
The Reds have no one in their bullpen who I think shouldn't be on the team. That's a very rare thing.

The Reds don't sniff 1st place so far without the current bullpen. And it's not really close, at all.

REDREAD
05-29-2012, 12:20 AM
The Reds have no one in their bullpen who I think shouldn't be on the team. That's a very rare thing.

I agree. That's a really nice complement.

I don't expect Simon to perform at this level all year, but I do have hope that he can pitch well enough to continue his role. I admit, I vastly underestimated him.

DGullett35
05-29-2012, 06:32 AM
Simon has been a pleasant surprise. I can envision him having to make a spot start or 2 sometime this year. The guy has great movement on his pitches.

lollipopcurve
05-29-2012, 06:44 AM
He gets him work in a game the Reds are trailing, strictly mop up duty. I think this is an appropriate role for him, every bullpen needs guys like him. As he performs well, the Reds save a few innings for the better bullpen arms and he gives us a chance for a comeback.

This makes no sense to me. There is no difference between "giving the team a chance for a comeback" and "holding a lead." Putting up a zero is putting up a zero. The problem with the mode of thinking that you can only use certain guys with a lead is that those guys can get burned out in a stretch of many such games. A broader, season-appropriate strategy, as opposed to a game-appropriate strategy, is sometimes required, IMO.

camisadelgolf
05-29-2012, 01:51 PM
The Reds have no one in their bullpen who I think shouldn't be on the team. That's a very rare thing.
. . . and that's after injuries to Masset, Bray, and Madson. To top it off, the Reds are plush with relief pitching prospects in the mid-minors. Provided nothing shocking happens, the bullpen is looking good for years to come.

RedlegJake
05-29-2012, 02:04 PM
With Corcino, Cingrani, Stephenson, Bray, Manno, Garrett, Sulburan & some others and the 12 pitchers on the Reds, with Masset, Madsen and Bray working their way back, the Reds look very good on pitching for a long time to come, too. It's the future of the offense that worries me.

RichRed
05-29-2012, 02:20 PM
With Corcino, Cingrani, Stephenson, Bray, Manno, Garrett, Sulburan & some others and the 12 pitchers on the Reds, with Masset, Madsen and Bray working their way back, the Reds look very good on pitching for a long time to come, too. It's the future of the offense that worries me.

It's Bizarro time for Reds fans.

cumberlandreds
05-29-2012, 02:26 PM
I was away on vacation for a few days and didn't even know the Reds had picked him up until he came into the game Saturday night.
I think it says a lot that pitching starved Orioles waived this guy. I have seen him pitch for the Orioles and yes he throws hard but down the middle for the most part. I guess the Reds just needed someone to fill in for Masset and he was the best available at the time. I really don't expect him to stick around for long though.

My crow taste pretty good for Simon. :) You really do have to wonder why the Orioles gave up on him. Also did Price or someone else see a mechanical flaw in his delivery that they thought could be corrected? Anyway he's been just fine in the role he has been used in. Now if they changed that role from long to set up or if they needed a starter it may be a different story.

camisadelgolf
05-29-2012, 02:57 PM
For one thing, I'd imagine it's easier to be a pitcher in the NL Central than in the AL East. And it's not rare to see guys change leagues and enjoy success during their first appearances.

jojo
05-29-2012, 03:09 PM
This makes no sense to me. There is no difference between "giving the team a chance for a comeback" and "holding a lead." Putting up a zero is putting up a zero. The problem with the mode of thinking that you can only use certain guys with a lead is that those guys can get burned out in a stretch of many such games. A broader, season-appropriate strategy, as opposed to a game-appropriate strategy, is sometimes required, IMO.

I think he was saying some guys are best for low leverage situations and some are better used in high leverage situations. Simon hasn't really been used in the wrong situations.

lollipopcurve
05-29-2012, 03:41 PM
I think he was saying some guys are best for low leverage situations and some are better used in high leverage situations. Simon hasn't really been used in the wrong situations.

There's no right or wrong about it. Drawing a line in the sand that says, for example, that so-and-so should never pitch with a close game in the 7th inning or later, is absurd and unnecessarily restrictive. There has to be flexibility in order to give guys who have been used a lot some rest. It has the added benefit of giving some guys an opportunity to perform under pressure -- never know what you might find.

traderumor
05-29-2012, 05:06 PM
There's no right or wrong about it. Drawing a line in the sand that says, for example, that so-and-so should never pitch with a close game in the 7th inning or later, is absurd and unnecessarily restrictive. There has to be flexibility in order to give guys who have been used a lot some rest. It has the added benefit of giving some guys an opportunity to perform under pressure -- never know what you might find.That rubs both ways. Dusty has a deep bullpen, no need to run someone out there who has a small window of success with the Reds and a boatload of "meh" career to base his trust level on. The point really was that they haven't needed him in games they are ahead, generally.

They have choices of Chapman, Marshall, Ondrusek, and Arredondo, usually at least three of the four, every night. Why would you run Simon out there when you clearly have better, more reliable options on any given night when wins are a precious MLB commodity?

And Hoover is a better option than Simon for my money in the current pecking order. Simon gets whatever's left. I'm glad he's taken advantage and pitched well. When a spot opens, let's hope he continues to perform. But I can certainly understand why he is currently used as he is.

jojo
05-29-2012, 06:00 PM
There's no right or wrong about it. Drawing a line in the sand that says, for example, that so-and-so should never pitch with a close game in the 7th inning or later, is absurd and unnecessarily restrictive. There has to be flexibility in order to give guys who have been used a lot some rest. It has the added benefit of giving some guys an opportunity to perform under pressure -- never know what you might find.

I think its very reasonable to suggest that the pen's best arms should generally be used in the highest leverage situations and the pens weaker arms should generally be used in the lowest leverage situations. That's not being dogmatic. It's properly managing the pen.

Frankly, if anything, I want to kiss Dusty for how he's used Chapman-his highest leverage pen arm. Instead of saying "Chapman is the 9th inning guy", Chapman has been brought in when the fuel was getting poured on the fire. regardless of inning. That's how to do it.

lollipopcurve
06-16-2013, 04:17 PM
Bump in honor of Simon's Ktastic 3-inning save today.

Alfredo has more friends now.

remdog
06-16-2013, 04:22 PM
Was sort of thinking the same thing. I've been pretty pleased with him lately.

Rem

DocRed
06-16-2013, 04:24 PM
Hard to argue with sub 3 ERA the last 2 years...kudos to him.

Tony Cloninger
06-16-2013, 04:30 PM
A great claim by Walt and his staff.

RedEye
06-16-2013, 04:33 PM
Chapman, LeCure and Simon are the strength of the pen now.

Big Klu
06-16-2013, 04:44 PM
I thought Alfredo Simon was Esteban Yan redux when the Reds signed him last year, but he has proven me wrong. Good job, Alfredo.

oregonred
06-16-2013, 04:49 PM
He seems to pitch better with multiple innings. Great pickup by Walt. Perfect exhibit on why not to dolw out 21M to Broxton types.

PuffyPig
06-16-2013, 06:04 PM
Reading the thread makes one think that everyone was making decisions based on the first 8 games of the year last year.

Surely that can't be true in a sport with small sample sizes are basically meaningless.

reds1869
06-16-2013, 06:06 PM
Simon has been tremendous. Watching him go three in person today was impressive. Walt nailed this one.

Kc61
06-16-2013, 09:15 PM
Didn't see the game today. Wonder why Dusty suddenly used a reliever for three innings. Normally would use several guys.

I like it, reminds me of years ago. But wonder if there was some particular reason.

RedEye
06-16-2013, 09:20 PM
Didn't see the game today. Wonder why Dusty suddenly used a reliever for three innings. Normally would use several guys.

I like it, reminds me of years ago. But wonder if there was some particular reason.

I have a feeling Dusty is sort of in bullpen triage mode right now. Partch went four innings a few days ago, and now Simon goes an extended three. Management realizes, as do we, that the bullpen is struggling with health and effectiveness, so new strategies may be more likely to pop up.

I actually like his choices in these cases, but I doubt it will last given his more discrete usage of an innings-based roles model in the past.

Kcbuckeye22
06-16-2013, 09:46 PM
Alfredo is like wine. Takes him a year to age to perfection. I also I like a good wine with my Alfredo.

marcshoe
06-16-2013, 09:48 PM
I still think he's gone as soon as Masset and Bray get healthy.

RedEye
06-16-2013, 09:52 PM
I still think he's gone as soon as Masset and Bray get healthy.

Ah, Masset and Bray -- the endlessly vanishing bullpen horizon.

Tom Servo
06-16-2013, 10:03 PM
Ah, Masset and Bray -- the endlessly vanishing bullpen horizon.
If we can just get to the deadline Eddie Guardado, Gary Majewski, Nick Masset, and Bill Bray will save us!

smixsell
06-16-2013, 11:12 PM
Ah, Masset and Bray -- the endlessly vanishing bullpen horizon.

That's actually quite poetic Redeye. :)

The Operator
06-16-2013, 11:16 PM
Did Nick Masset's arm get amputated or something?

The guy pitched several years straight in relief then BAM, just gone. You hear his name every now and then, but that's it.

RedEye
06-16-2013, 11:19 PM
You hear his name every now and then, but that's it...

Sort of like Kaiser Söze.

NebraskaRed
06-16-2013, 11:27 PM
Did Nick Masset's arm get amputated or something?

The guy pitched several years straight in relief then BAM, just gone. You hear his name every now and then, but that's it.

His arm didn't get amputated, but the question is, does Masset have heart?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L3yIHmp09jg

nate
06-16-2013, 11:49 PM
Isn't Bray already gone?

RedEye
06-16-2013, 11:50 PM
Isn't Bray already gone?

Yeah. But I was asking that question for quite sometime before it actually happened.

reds1869
06-17-2013, 12:31 PM
His arm didn't get amputated, but the question is, does Masset have heart?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L3yIHmp09jg

:laugh:

I've never seen Radio Days but I think that is about to change.

cumberlandreds
06-17-2013, 12:43 PM
I was away on vacation for a few days and didn't even know the Reds had picked him up until he came into the game Saturday night.
I think it says a lot that pitching starved Orioles waived this guy. I have seen him pitch for the Orioles and yes he throws hard but down the middle for the most part. I guess the Reds just needed someone to fill in for Masset and he was the best available at the time. I really don't expect him to stick around for long though.


Obviously this moron didn't know what he was talking about. :)

redsmetz
06-17-2013, 02:19 PM
Obviously this moron didn't know what he was talking about. :)

Here's another dim bulb - it took me a minute to realize your comment was self-deprecating as opposed to a harsh judgment. :confused: