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LeDoux
04-08-2012, 04:57 PM
I am starting a thread to keep track of Dusty's blunders this season.

Entry 1: 4/8- Allowing 3 runs to cross before replacing Arroyo in the 7th.

Stray
04-08-2012, 04:59 PM
A hit batter, a first pitch hit, and then the flood gates opened up. He had around 70 pitches going into the inning and had been throwing well.

What reliever are you thinking of that gets ready in 5 minutes?

LeDoux
04-08-2012, 05:42 PM
A hit batter, a first pitch hit, and then the flood gates opened up. He had around 70 pitches going into the inning and had been throwing well.

What reliever are you thinking of that gets ready in 5 minutes?

I think you are capturing Dusty's reasoning. I am sure he will say much the same if he asked about it by the press. But since Bronson had a horrible 2011, a not-so-stellar Spring, and the Reds were trying to protect a 2-run lead, why not have someone warm up to start the 7th, or at least when he plunks the first batter? You can always use that same reliever the following inning if he is not needed in the 7th. The 100 pitch rule? The 7 inning rule? I see no advantage in not preparing for this possibility.

I argue that today was an example of Dusty being caught off guard by pitching meltdown- a meltdown which he could have at least partially anticipated. I also do not believe it is the first time this type of thing has happened.

PMand JM
04-08-2012, 05:57 PM
Didn't we win this game?

Stray
04-08-2012, 06:04 PM
I think you are capturing Dusty's reasoning. I am sure he will say much the same if he asked about it by the press. But since Bronson had a horrible 2011, a not-so-stellar Spring, and the Reds were trying to protect a 2-run lead, why not have someone warm up to start the 7th, or at least when he plunks the first batter? You can always use that same reliever the following inning if he is not needed in the 7th. The 100 pitch rule? The 7 inning rule? I see no advantage in not preparing for this possibility.

I argue that today was an example of Dusty being caught off guard by pitching meltdown- a meltdown which he could have at least partially anticipated. I also do not believe it is the first time this type of thing has happened.

It's the 3rd game of the year, and it was Bronson's first start. He looked really good up until that point, the 2nd run he gave up was due to an error on the stolen base attempt. If his pitch count were around 90 heading into that inning I would agree with you, at 70ish pitches not so much.

Ideally Bronson gets through that inning, Chapman pitches the 8th, and Marshall the 9th. That way Ondrusek gets the day off after pitching in last night's game (even though it wasn't a long appearance last night). Warming him for no apparent reason would have made zero sense with the way the game was unfolding.

IamRV
04-08-2012, 06:43 PM
Reds win in spite of IDIOT. If he was going to use Chapman for 2 innings then there was no excuse not to bring him in when or before the first two reached in the 7th against Bronson. Another example of his mismanaging.

texasdave
04-08-2012, 06:46 PM
A hit batter, a first pitch hit, and then the flood gates opened up. He had around 70 pitches going into the inning and had been throwing well.

What reliever are you thinking of that gets ready in 5 minutes?

There were several people in the game thread that stated Arroyo shouldn't go more than six. Dusty should have had someone getting ready. That is his job, to anticipate situations. Anyone can manage after the fact. That one clearly was on Dusty, IMO.

texasdave
04-08-2012, 06:49 PM
That way Ondrusek gets the day off after pitching in last night's game (even though it wasn't a long appearance last night). Warming him for no apparent reason would have made zero sense with the way the game was unfolding.

And yet Bill Bray hasn't made an appearance yet if I am not mistaken. He could have handled the 7th.

texasdave
04-08-2012, 06:56 PM
Reds win in spite of IDIOT. If he was going to use Chapman for 2 innings then there was no excuse not to bring him in when or before the first two reached in the 7th against Bronson. Another example of his mismanaging.

Agreed 100%. If you are going to use Chapman for two innings bring him in to start the 7th. Let him work the 7th and the 8th. Marshall closes it in the 9th.
Of course, after Dusty butchered the 7th I suppose he felt compelled to leave Chapman in to keep the game winnable.

DGullett35
04-08-2012, 07:01 PM
Dusty has said that Bray is not quite ready for the late inning role, and if he doesn't trust him yet then I wouldn't want him entering the 7th today either. He could have had someone starting to warm up in the beginning of the 7th however, and I'm sure if you asked him he may admit that

texasdave
04-08-2012, 07:04 PM
Dusty has said that Bray is not quite ready for the late inning role, and if he doesn't trust him yet then I wouldn't want him entering the 7th today either. He could have had someone starting to warm up in the beginning of the 7th however, and I'm sure if you asked him he may admit that

This may be the dumbest thing Dusty has ever said. So Bray could pitch the 6th but not the 7th? Because if you give up a run in the 6th it isn't worth as much as a run in the 7th? Simply amazing.

brm7675
04-08-2012, 07:12 PM
To me u get Chapman up to pitch the 7-8 especially since he only threw ten pitches on Thursday and has had two days off. Again mote proof Dusty is not even an adequate field manager...

LaFlamaBlanca
04-08-2012, 07:16 PM
Isn't the reason Dusty didn't use Aroldis in the seventh was that the pitcher's spot was due up 3rd in the next inning? Would've forced Aroldis to only go .2, or give up an AB in a tight game. I don't hate the move. And did Ondrusek give up a 2 run homer I'm missing? With the exception of maybe pulling Arroyo earlier, seemed like it worked out.

DGullett35
04-08-2012, 07:19 PM
This may be the dumbest thing Dusty has ever said. So Bray could pitch the 6th but not the 7th? Because if you give up a run in the 6th it isn't worth as much as a run in the 7th? Simply amazing.


He said he was still in spring training mode as far as where his arm is and that they were going to break him in slower than normal. I'm guessing he could pitch in any inning as long as it wasn't a high pressure situation with the game on the line or something of that nature. I really dont understand that. He could have started Bray on the DL and let Francis start the season as the loogy. O well I guess they want to keep Francis as a starter and he will log more innings at AAA than pitching one inning every 3 or 4 days.

R_Webb18
04-08-2012, 08:16 PM
Didn't we win this game?

yes but you cant come back every game.

we could of threw some1 in 7th chapman 8th sean m 9th and prob never give lead up

DocRed
04-08-2012, 08:17 PM
Having Harris and Simon on this roster is a crime in itself.

texasdave
04-08-2012, 08:57 PM
Having Harris and Simon on this roster is a crime in itself.

Throw in Bray if they have no intention of using him. You would expect your starter to go 6 innings. So, if Bray cannot pitch from the 7th inning on you got problems working him in. If Bray was not ready to start the season then DL him and bring up an arm you can use.

Ironman92
04-08-2012, 09:14 PM
This may be the dumbest thing Dusty has ever said. So Bray could pitch the 6th but not the 7th? Because if you give up a run in the 6th it isn't worth as much as a run in the 7th? Simply amazing.

Kinda counters his reasoning for not batting Votto/Bruce back-to-back

LeDoux
04-08-2012, 09:41 PM
It's the 3rd game of the year, and it was Bronson's first start. He looked really good up until that point, the 2nd run he gave up was due to an error on the stolen base attempt. If his pitch count were around 90 heading into that inning I would agree with you, at 70ish pitches not so much.

Ideally Bronson gets through that inning, Chapman pitches the 8th, and Marshall the 9th. That way Ondrusek gets the day off after pitching in last night's game (even though it wasn't a long appearance last night). Warming him for no apparent reason would have made zero sense with the way the game was unfolding.

I would agree with you if it was Roy Halladay pitching- a much lower chance of a meltdown. But this is Arroyo we are talking about. The 4th trip through the lineup has not been good for him for a very long time.

texasdave
04-09-2012, 01:11 AM
Arroyo is the worst starting pitcher in the league until he shows otherwise.

dubc47834
04-09-2012, 08:42 AM
I think you are capturing Dusty's reasoning. I am sure he will say much the same if he asked about it by the press. But since Bronson had a horrible 2011, a not-so-stellar Spring, and the Reds were trying to protect a 2-run lead, why not have someone warm up to start the 7th, or at least when he plunks the first batter? You can always use that same reliever the following inning if he is not needed in the 7th. The 100 pitch rule? The 7 inning rule? I see no advantage in not preparing for this possibility.

I argue that today was an example of Dusty being caught off guard by pitching meltdown- a meltdown which he could have at least partially anticipated. I also do not believe it is the first time this type of thing has happened.

So....every inning we have a guy warmed up....just in case.....gotcha!!!!!:lol:

dubc47834
04-09-2012, 09:00 AM
There were several people in the game thread that stated Arroyo shouldn't go more than six. Dusty should have had someone getting ready. That is his job, to anticipate situations. Anyone can manage after the fact. That one clearly was on Dusty, IMO.

Dude, he had thrown 70 pitches....wtf do people expect. I understand Dusty makes some weird decisions sometimes, but I don't get the total hate for him!!!! He has done good I think. I know part of it is the players we have, but before he was here we SUCKED!!!!

swaisuc
04-09-2012, 09:57 AM
So....every inning we have a guy warmed up....just in case.....gotcha!!!!!:lol:

I don't think it is unreasonable to ask them to have a guy warming up to start the 7th there. I think they were trying to nurse him through the inning because he was due up the next inning and got caught, simple as that. One of the main reasons Arroyo is valuable is because he can go deep in games so I can see running him out there for the 7th. In a close game though, you've got to be ready with a quick hook when things start to go downhill IMO.

To be fair, I really liked the move to leave Chapman in for the 9th. You don't see enough managers adjust their plans and pitch a guy 2 innings after he breezes through the first with minimal pitches/effort. Whether you think it was obvious or not, plenty of managers don't do it and it may have won us the game.

dubc47834
04-09-2012, 11:08 AM
I don't think it is unreasonable to ask them to have a guy warming up to start the 7th there. I think they were trying to nurse him through the inning because he was due up the next inning and got caught, simple as that. One of the main reasons Arroyo is valuable is because he can go deep in games so I can see running him out there for the 7th. In a close game though, you've got to be ready with a quick hook when things start to go downhill IMO.

To be fair, I really liked the move to leave Chapman in for the 9th. You don't see enough managers adjust their plans and pitch a guy 2 innings after he breezes through the first with minimal pitches/effort. Whether you think it was obvious or not, plenty of managers don't do it and it may have won us the game.

Nurse him thru the 7th? The guy was pitching a good game up until then, why would they nurse him thru? He had like 70 sumthin pitches. That is nothing for Arroyo. If he had 90+ pitches, I could see the big deal. I also liked Chappy staying out there, the guy is killin batters right now!!!

swaisuc
04-09-2012, 11:18 AM
Nurse him thru the 7th? The guy was pitching a good game up until then, why would they nurse him thru? He had like 70 sumthin pitches. That is nothing for Arroyo. If he had 90+ pitches, I could see the big deal. I also liked Chappy staying out there, the guy is killin batters right now!!!

Fair enough. Bad choice of words. They were hoping he could make it through one more inning so they could pinch hit.

stevekun
04-09-2012, 11:46 AM
In the bottom of the nineth we had Stubbs on 3rd and Hannigan on 1st with 1 out. Rolen at bat. Dusty needs to tell Hanigan to steal 2nd so it takes away the possibility of a double play. And if they throw to 2nd Stubbs would have scored. Not sure why you leave the possibility of an inning ending double play in that situation

dubc47834
04-09-2012, 11:55 AM
In the bottom of the nineth we had Stubbs on 3rd and Hannigan on 1st with 1 out. Rolen at bat. Dusty needs to tell Hanigan to steal 2nd so it takes away the possibility of a double play. And if they throw to 2nd Stubbs would have scored. Not sure why you leave the possibility of an inning ending double play in that situation

LOL, this is a little league play, I have seen this used in the big leagues maybe once. :laugh::lol:

dubc47834
04-09-2012, 11:56 AM
Fair enough. Bad choice of words. They were hoping he could make it through one more inning so they could pinch hit.

I get what your saying now...fair enough!!!:beerme:

stevekun
04-09-2012, 01:05 PM
LOL, this is a little league play, I have seen this used in the big leagues maybe once. :laugh::lol:

You are wrong. Im not talking about a "Play" to score stubs. What Im talking about is leaving the opportunity to end the inning and go to extras when you can steal second. They arent gonna try to throw to second to get Hanigan in that situation.

Stray
04-09-2012, 02:01 PM
I would agree with you if it was Roy Halladay pitching- a much lower chance of a meltdown. But this is Arroyo we are talking about. The 4th trip through the lineup has not been good for him for a very long time.

I guess I can see what you're saying, I'm just not warming a pitcher for something that hasn't happened yet under those circumstances.

Arroyo's value to this team is in innings pitched. He's not going to have a sub 3.5 ERA, he's not gonna strike out a ton of guys, and he's not gonna win 20 games. What he can do is give you 200+ innings each year, and considering how gassed our bullpen was by last July, that is something we really need. Cueto, Latos, and Bailey have all been injury prone in their careers, an innings eater can be valuable to our bullpen as we get to the 2nd half of the season.

So yeah...I see why people would want it considering Arroyo could face probs a 4th time through the order, I'm just not going to warm a pitcher after a night where we worked the bullpen pretty hard. At least not till he runs into trouble.

dubc47834
04-09-2012, 02:15 PM
You are wrong. Im not talking about a "Play" to score stubs. What Im talking about is leaving the opportunity to end the inning and go to extras when you can steal second. They arent gonna try to throw to second to get Hanigan in that situation.

If it was somebody fairly quick, I could possibly see it then. It's Hanigan tho, he would be toast. I know that him as a runner really doesnt matter much since Stubbs was the winning run, but I dont think it was worth the risk of throwing Hanigan out then Rolen popping or grounding out. But hey, we all do things differently. To each his own!!!

LeDoux
04-09-2012, 03:52 PM
So....every inning we have a guy warmed up....just in case.....gotcha!!!!!:lol:

In your heart of hearts, is this really what you believe I am suggesting? :(

LeDoux
04-09-2012, 04:04 PM
I guess I can see what you're saying, I'm just not warming a pitcher for something that hasn't happened yet under those circumstances.

Arroyo's value to this team is in innings pitched. He's not going to have a sub 3.5 ERA, he's not gonna strike out a ton of guys, and he's not gonna win 20 games. What he can do is give you 200+ innings each year, and considering how gassed our bullpen was by last July, that is something we really need. Cueto, Latos, and Bailey have all been injury prone in their careers, an innings eater can be valuable to our bullpen as we get to the 2nd half of the season.

So yeah...I see why people would want it considering Arroyo could face probs a 4th time through the order, I'm just not going to warm a pitcher after a night where we worked the bullpen pretty hard. At least not till he runs into trouble.

If we look at this on a continuum, we may come closer together. Dusty could have had someone warming:

A. Before Arroyo's first pitch.
B. After the hit batsman
C. After the single
D. After the double
E. After the ground out
F. After the single

I think Dusty's choice was E or F. If not A, surely B or C should provoke some action.

For the record, I would have gone with A: Arroyo entering 4th pass trough lineup + early in the season. But shouldn't B, or at the very least, C have brought a response?

I am not positive when someone got up, but between the visit to the mound, Hanigan stalling, and the injury delay it seems like someone should have been ready before the Double.

Even if you think preparing for a bad inning is over the top, I still think an agruement can be made for a slow hook.

texasdave
04-09-2012, 05:08 PM
Our "innings eater" was the worst starting pitcher in the league last year (or very close to it). Those types of innings this team can do without.

Stray
04-09-2012, 05:23 PM
If we look at this on a continuum, we may come closer together. Dusty could have had someone warming:

A. Before Arroyo's first pitch.
B. After the hit batsman
C. After the single
D. After the double
E. After the ground out
F. After the single

I think Dusty's choice was E or F. If not A, surely B or C should provoke some action.

For the record, I would have gone with A: Arroyo entering 4th pass trough lineup + early in the season. But shouldn't B, or at the very least, C have brought a response?

I am not positive when someone got up, but between the visit to the mound, Hanigan stalling, and the injury delay it seems like someone should have been ready before the Double.

Even if you think preparing for a bad inning is over the top, I still think an agruement can be made for a slow hook.

I'm not sure exactly when someone got up, but I thought it was around the time that the guy who got hit didn't go 1st to 3rd and was pulled for another player. But yeah, not positive there. I think that PH double was another first pitch hit as well.

I honestly have no idea how long it takes Ondrusek to get ready, but without even tossing around before the hit batter I don't think we could have had him in before the drawn in IF single to right. And that wasn't a terrible AB for Arroyo..he had him to 2 strikes and got a ground ball...it just found a hole.

I guess we can agree to disagree. Us baseball fans all have a little manager in us.

Stray
04-09-2012, 05:25 PM
Our "innings eater" was the worst starting pitcher in the league last year (or very close to it). Those types of innings this team can do without.

This would probably be another discussion all together, but if Arroyo can't eat innings then he really shouldn't even be in our rotation. He's not exactly lights out from the 1st-6th inning or anything. His value to us lies in his ability to give our bullpen easy nights.

If we have to have quick hooks with him and worry about his ability to pitch the 7th inning with 70 pitches, then imo he shouldn't be in the rotation. We'd get more value elsewhere.

EMAW
04-09-2012, 08:20 PM
Not making breaking Homer Bailey's right arm so he could not throw up the garbage b.p. slop in the 1st inning

markymark69
04-09-2012, 08:42 PM
Didn't we win this game?

That never matters with most Reds fans. They have to have something to complain about especially when it comes to Dusty.

If he had had taken Arroyo out before the inning started then we would have seen the Dusty is going to blow out the bullpen thread or something like that.

joshua
04-10-2012, 04:40 AM
Arroyo is not going to be able to pitch 200 quality innings ever again. He can give you 5 decent innings every second or third start. Maybe six if we're playing the Astros. Latos on the other hand pitched 180 innings in '10 and 190 in '11 and should break 200 this season, barring something horrible happening. And he can do it while giving up less than 40 home runs. He's the Reds workhorse of the future.

And I think the Reds have brought Bailey as far as they can. He needs a change of scenery, even if it's the bullpen. If he throws a fit over that then he needs to be shpped. You know there's a pitching coach that's been in his GM's office on and off the past few years saying "I know what's wrong. I can fix Homer Bailey."

DGullett35
04-10-2012, 05:29 AM
After Bailey got out of the first he didn't pitch all that bad. I'm not writing him off quite yet. I'm gonna give him a couple more starts before I suggest anything drastic..Theres really nothing we can do with him anyways. He's out of options and I'm thinking he doesn't really have much trade value. The only option would be to waive him and that would be more stupid than Dusty letting Arroyo work the 7th yesterday;)

Who Dey Time
04-10-2012, 10:13 AM
That never matters with most Reds fans. They have to have something to complain about especially when it comes to Dusty.

If he had had taken Arroyo out before the inning started then we would have seen the Dusty is going to blow out the bullpen thread or something like that.

Exactly! It's very difficult to take anything that some people post seriously since we know far too well about their slanted, illogical take.

texasdave
04-10-2012, 11:28 AM
After Bailey got out of the first he didn't pitch all that bad. I'm not writing him off quite yet. I'm gonna give him a couple more starts before I suggest anything drastic..Theres really nothing we can do with him anyways. He's out of options and I'm thinking he doesn't really have much trade value. The only option would be to waive him and that would be more stupid than Dusty letting Arroyo work the 7th yesterday;)

History never repeats. :)

We heard the same thing about Edinson Volquez last year. I think Bailey is a better pitcher than Volquez. It's just that all these folks saying that Homer pitched well after the first reminded me of that.

stevekun
04-10-2012, 03:39 PM
If it was somebody fairly quick, I could possibly see it then. It's Hanigan tho, he would be toast. I know that him as a runner really doesnt matter much since Stubbs was the winning run, but I dont think it was worth the risk of throwing Hanigan out then Rolen popping or grounding out. But hey, we all do things differently. To each his own!!!

You dont understand. If hannigan runs then you send Stubbs IF they throw to second. Stubbs scores. But the Dumbest move is to leave the door open to a double play

LaFlamaBlanca
04-10-2012, 05:45 PM
Arroyo is not going to be able to pitch 200 quality innings ever again. He can give you 5 decent innings every second or third start. Maybe six if we're playing the Astros. Latos on the other hand pitched 180 innings in '10 and 190 in '11 and should break 200 this season, barring something horrible happening. And he can do it while giving up less than 40 home runs. He's the Reds workhorse of the future.

And I think the Reds have brought Bailey as far as they can. He needs a change of scenery, even if it's the bullpen. If he throws a fit over that then he needs to be shpped. You know there's a pitching coach that's been in his GM's office on and off the past few years saying "I know what's wrong. I can fix Homer Bailey."

Anddddd now it's inevitable. Awful awful jinx. :bang:

On a serious note though, I agree with you on Bailey. He could easily be our next Lohse, the one that makes you go "Where the hell was that as a Red?" Why does it never work the other way around?

jrandal9
04-12-2012, 05:23 PM
Alfredo Simon in to pitch when the game is on the line. STUPID Against the Nats on 4-12

Jr's Boy
04-12-2012, 06:55 PM
Ah yes,it is going to be an entertaining summer with Rusty at the helm.:D

smixsell
04-12-2012, 08:07 PM
I think you are capturing Dusty's reasoning. I am sure he will say much the same if he asked about it by the press. But since Bronson had a horrible 2011, a not-so-stellar Spring, and the Reds were trying to protect a 2-run lead, why not have someone warm up to start the 7th, or at least when he plunks the first batter? You can always use that same reliever the following inning if he is not needed in the 7th. The 100 pitch rule? The 7 inning rule? I see no advantage in not preparing for this possibility.

I argue that today was an example of Dusty being caught off guard by pitching meltdown- a meltdown which he could have at least partially anticipated. I also do not believe it is the first time this type of thing has happened.

Spot on Mate

smixsell
04-12-2012, 08:11 PM
There were several people in the game thread that stated Arroyo shouldn't go more than six. Dusty should have had someone getting ready. That is his job, to anticipate situations. Anyone can manage after the fact. That one clearly was on Dusty, IMO.

Yep. Good managers have some one already warming up when a pitcher enters his "hook zone." Crusty is always caught off guard by these sudden, BUT PREDICTABLE, losses of effectivenes on the part of certain starters.

CWRed
04-12-2012, 08:28 PM
Alfredo Simon in to pitch when the game is on the line. STUPID Against the Nats on 4-12

This. So Bray, Ondrusek, and Marshall were all left in the tank. Oh wait Marshall's gotta be kept for the save opportunity! :thumbdown:

smixsell
04-12-2012, 08:29 PM
Failing to bat Bruce fourth against righthanded starting pitching is indefensible and utterly moronic. In other words it's classic Crusty Baker reasoning.

Ironman92
04-12-2012, 10:23 PM
Failing to bat Bruce fourth against righthanded starting pitching is indefensible and utterly moronic. In other words it's classic Crusty Baker reasoning.

Also known as Dingle Baker

faffy42
04-13-2012, 10:18 PM
Pulling arroyo against the nats when he was pitching a gem. One pitch later after he was yanked...bray gives up homer. Dusty is a HORRiBLE baseball guy...horrible.

R_Webb18
04-13-2012, 10:23 PM
Pulling arroyo against the nats when he was pitching a gem. One pitch later after he was yanked...bray gives up homer. Dusty is a HORRiBLE baseball guy...horrible.

disagree on today. its bronson ppl. this is not roy h

joshua
04-13-2012, 10:29 PM
If you're going to have Bronson only face one batter then yank him, why not pinch hit Cozart or Heisey with two guys in scoring position?

faffy42
04-13-2012, 10:32 PM
Pulling arroyo against the nats when he was pitching a gem. One pitch later after he was yanked...bray gives up homer. Dusty is a HORRiBLE baseball guy...horrible.

DGullett35
04-13-2012, 11:04 PM
I don't fault Dusty for pulling Bronson. If he would have left him in and Nady still hit that homer then you all would have been crying about how he was left in too.

joshua
04-13-2012, 11:30 PM
Guy on second in extra innings with no outs. You call your hottest hitter in to pinch hit. He's batting .370/.433/.704...and you ask him to bunt.

DGullett35
04-13-2012, 11:37 PM
The worst crime of all. Its got to be a felony is playing Drew Stubbs. I'm so sick and tired of watching this guy come to the plate and either striking out or tapping one to short. I root for anybody with a Reds uniform on but this guy is so frustrating to watch. Something needs to be done becuse the guy isn't getting it. A trip to the minors may do him well at this point.

markymark69
04-13-2012, 11:42 PM
I don't fault Dusty for pulling Bronson. If he would have left him in and Nady still hit that homer then you all would have been crying about how he was left in too.

Now you're catching on - as to how this board works.

Cardinal_Fan
04-14-2012, 12:18 AM
Every team has their faults, and clearly the Cardinals aren't immune. But, I do not understand why Scott Rolen is batting 4th for the Reds. I mean all you have to do is walk Votto...

Jefferson24
04-14-2012, 12:28 AM
With control of the nuclease of this team for several more years I think it is time to get a new captain. They are never going to reach their full potential with Dusty at the helm. Should they have scored more than one today, sure. Was this game still winnable, absolutely.

Stray
04-14-2012, 12:33 AM
If Cozart is your best bunter then you should ph him to do that and move Ludwick to 3rd. No issue there. Pulling Arroyo was a good move imo. Bray facing a righty had to happen.

The only thing I question was not PH'ing for Arroyo in the 7th I think...with how inept our offense is, I think you gotta try to get a run there. Especially with Cozart and BP on the bench.

joshua
04-14-2012, 12:41 AM
Every team has their faults, and clearly the Cardinals aren't immune. But, I do not understand why Scott Rolen is batting 4th for the Reds. I mean all you have to do is walk Votto...

What's worse, Rolen batting fourth or Stubbs leading off? Both of those guys should be batting at the bottom of the order, not filling key positions.

malcontent
04-14-2012, 01:14 AM
What's worse, Rolen batting fourth or Stubbs leading off? Both of those guys should be batting at the bottom of the order, not filling key positions.
I was worried all winter about Baker batting Rolen fourth.

Then in spring training there seemed to be signs of life, that the shoulder surgery had made a difference.

But now it seems that was a fantasy, and Rolen is finished after all.

Batting Stubbs lead-off is what I like to refer as OSM (Overt Sabotage by Manager).

Dusty Baker perennially leads MLB in OSM.

But IMO, a lot of this is on Walt. You provide Baker with the T-Viruses and Drew Stubbs of the world, don't be surprised when he trots them out there 600 times.

texasdave
04-14-2012, 01:28 AM
If Cozart is your best bunter then you should ph him to do that and move Ludwick to 3rd. No issue there. Pulling Arroyo was a good move imo. Bray facing a righty had to happen.

The only thing I question was not PH'ing for Arroyo in the 7th I think...with how inept our offense is, I think you gotta try to get a run there. Especially with Cozart and BP on the bench.

I disagree with this. If Cozart is markedly better then you put him up there. If he is a marginally better bunter than Harris it makes no sense.
Just looking at the stats in Baseball-reference.com would suggest that Harris is pretty adept at sacrificing. 35 in 2400 minor league ABs. Cozart had 17 in 2100 minor league ABs.

joshua
04-14-2012, 01:32 AM
Harris has been around the block in the majors a few times. He knows how to lay down a bunt. Putting Cozart and his .370 average up there to do anything other than swing away with RISP is absolutely stupid. Unforgivable move.

jt4prez
04-14-2012, 02:30 AM
The move by Baker tonight in pulling Arroyo, as well as his move in not taking out Arroyo before he relinquished the lead in his first start, demonstrates an extreme lack of feel for how the game was going and in turn an extreme lack of judgment for when pitchers should be lifted.

Tonight Arroyo was cruising along, allowing only 3 hits through 7.1 IP. There were no signs whatsoever that Arroyo would struggle going forward, especially since he rather handily struck out the last batter he faced. Despite this Baker took him out in favor of Bray, who would end up facing Xavier Nady in what was a worse matchup, then what was facing Arroyo in Chad Tracy. In Arroyo's first start he had given up 2 runs on 7 hits through 6 IP. In the 7th, Arroyo Hit the first batter and then surrendered a single to the next. Yet, Arroyo was not pulled until he gave up the lead 3 batters later. Yes, it all happened quickly, but there are ways to effectively slow the game down to get a guy warm.

In essence, Baker pulled Arroyo tonight when the game was well within Arroyo's control and the Nationals were not threatening. In his first start he did the opposite, failing to pull Arroyo despite the fact that he was getting hit pretty well throughout the game and despite the fact that he was in a major jam, which would ultimately see him give up the lead. Both situations demonstrate Baker's lack of feel for the game and if not that, it demonstrates the extreme inconsistency he has in approaching pitching changes-- lifting Arroyo due to previous struggles in late innings tonight, while failing to do so in his first start even though last season Arroyo also struggled in the late innings.

redram
04-14-2012, 02:37 AM
Ok what I want to know is why bring Bray into the game in the 8th. Why not have Chapman ready to go in that situation. I would bet any amount of money the HR would have never happened in that case. That is where Dusty failed IMO. Well, one of the times he failed in the game.

texasdave
04-14-2012, 04:37 AM
I believe Baker did not want to use Chapman unless necessary.

mikdavrut
04-14-2012, 08:56 AM
Yes folks, we witnessed what all of us well-versed in "Bakermetrics" know and expect. Just more standard, clueless moves which is all too much the norm for one Dusty Baker.

God how I wish someone would MAKE him STOP trotting Drew Stubbs out there night after night. I don't give a ish if the guy is fast as the speed of light - when you can't hit the ball to save your life, "speed" just isn't all that much of a factor. Rolen, while still making some pretty impressive defensive plays is as lost at the late as Stubbs, yet he's placed @ 4th in the lineup.

I would, as insane as it sounds, rather see Paul freakin' Janish leading off vs. Drew Stubbs. As for who to place 4th in the lineup, I don't know what a 100% correct answer would be (do we even HAVE a 100% correct solution to THAT predicament)?

God does our offense ever suck.

Best be praying our pitching improves to the point of darn near perfection as the way things are looking, our only chance this season is going to be holding the opposing team to zero runs and PRAYING like HELL that we can scratch out at least 1.

Yes, I fully understand that we are only 8 games into the season. But it's looking extremely woeful from an offensive standpoint and I don't know if I foresee a huge improvement from a solid handful of players that are simply LOST at the plate.

Stray
04-14-2012, 11:05 AM
I disagree with this. If Cozart is markedly better then you put him up there. If he is a marginally better bunter than Harris it makes no sense.
Just looking at the stats in Baseball-reference.com would suggest that Harris is pretty adept at sacrificing. 35 in 2400 minor league ABs. Cozart had 17 in 2100 minor league ABs.

I didn't know the stats. I was just sayin in that situation you want your best bunter up there, if that isn't Cozart then the move is stupid.

I woulda been hitting Cozart in the 7th inning though.

Todd Gack
04-14-2012, 11:10 AM
The move by Baker tonight in pulling Arroyo, as well as his move in not taking out Arroyo before he relinquished the lead in his first start, demonstrates an extreme lack of feel for how the game was going and in turn an extreme lack of judgment for when pitchers should be lifted.

Tonight Arroyo was cruising along, allowing only 3 hits through 7.1 IP. There were no signs whatsoever that Arroyo would struggle going forward, especially since he rather handily struck out the last batter he faced. Despite this Baker took him out in favor of Bray, who would end up facing Xavier Nady in what was a worse matchup, then what was facing Arroyo in Chad Tracy. In Arroyo's first start he had given up 2 runs on 7 hits through 6 IP. In the 7th, Arroyo Hit the first batter and then surrendered a single to the next. Yet, Arroyo was not pulled until he gave up the lead 3 batters later. Yes, it all happened quickly, but there are ways to effectively slow the game down to get a guy warm.

In essence, Baker pulled Arroyo tonight when the game was well within Arroyo's control and the Nationals were not threatening. In his first start he did the opposite, failing to pull Arroyo despite the fact that he was getting hit pretty well throughout the game and despite the fact that he was in a major jam, which would ultimately see him give up the lead. Both situations demonstrate Baker's lack of feel for the game and if not that, it demonstrates the extreme inconsistency he has in approaching pitching changes-- lifting Arroyo due to previous struggles in late innings tonight, while failing to do so in his first start even though last season Arroyo also struggled in the late innings.

"Arroyo had no problem with being lifted.

“We talked about it the inning before,” Arroyo said. “I wasn’t even real strong at the beginning of the game. My pitch count was real high. But basically they needed me to get righty out. They wanted to get a matchup there. It worked out in their favor, but that’s the way we’ve got to play it.”

John Fay
4/14/12

RedsBrick
04-14-2012, 11:17 AM
I believe Baker did not want to use Chapman unless necessary.

There inlies the mystery....how to define 'necessary'.

takealeake
04-14-2012, 12:27 PM
Arroyo also says constantly when he feels like crap is usually when he pitches better and when he comes into a game feeling great he implodes and give up 7 in 2 IP. The guy could say he feels great before the next game and give up a MLB record number of homeruns.

dubc47834
04-14-2012, 02:03 PM
The move by Baker tonight in pulling Arroyo, as well as his move in not taking out Arroyo before he relinquished the lead in his first start, demonstrates an extreme lack of feel for how the game was going and in turn an extreme lack of judgment for when pitchers should be lifted.

Tonight Arroyo was cruising along, allowing only 3 hits through 7.1 IP. There were no signs whatsoever that Arroyo would struggle going forward, especially since he rather handily struck out the last batter he faced. Despite this Baker took him out in favor of Bray, who would end up facing Xavier Nady in what was a worse matchup, then what was facing Arroyo in Chad Tracy. In Arroyo's first start he had given up 2 runs on 7 hits through 6 IP. In the 7th, Arroyo Hit the first batter and then surrendered a single to the next. Yet, Arroyo was not pulled until he gave up the lead 3 batters later. Yes, it all happened quickly, but there are ways to effectively slow the game down to get a guy warm.

In essence, Baker pulled Arroyo tonight when the game was well within Arroyo's control and the Nationals were not threatening. In his first start he did the opposite, failing to pull Arroyo despite the fact that he was getting hit pretty well throughout the game and despite the fact that he was in a major jam, which would ultimately see him give up the lead. Both situations demonstrate Baker's lack of feel for the game and if not that, it demonstrates the extreme inconsistency he has in approaching pitching changes-- lifting Arroyo due to previous struggles in late innings tonight, while failing to do so in his first start even though last season Arroyo also struggled in the late innings.

Jesus H. Christ.....Krusty gets lambasted for not pulling Arroyo his last start, now you bafoons want to lambast him for pulling him too early....WTF. People need to make up their minds on what the hell they expect. I get soooo tired of hearing people complain about everything that this manager does, yes, he does make curious decisions sometimes, but damn everything the man does is judged by a lot of people who 1. Dont know half as much as Dusty or 2. just like to hear themselves whine and moan. I know this is a useless rant, I just get tired of hearing the same people complain about stupid stuff.
.
.
.
.
.
Ok, I'm good now......just needed to vent!!!!!
:beerme:

Todd Gack
04-14-2012, 02:27 PM
Arroyo also says constantly when he feels like crap is usually when he pitches better and when he comes into a game feeling great he implodes and give up 7 in 2 IP. The guy could say he feels great before the next game and give up a MLB record number of homeruns.

So Bronson lied in his post game interview?

Ironman92
04-14-2012, 02:56 PM
Was it Pete McFreel that PH Juan Castro with 2 outs in the bottom of the 9th with the tying and winning runs on....with Josh Hamilton healthy and ready on a day off.....or was that Dusty?

Whoever it was bunting Cozart rivals that stupidity.

Todd Gack
04-14-2012, 03:07 PM
Was it Pete McFreel that PH Juan Castro with 2 outs in the bottom of the 9th with the tying and winning runs on....with Josh Hamilton healthy and ready on a day off.....or was that Dusty?

Whoever it was bunting Cozart rivals that stupidity.

That was a dumb move, but then again, Coazart should've still got the bunt down. At some point, you've got to put the onus on the players.

EMAW
04-14-2012, 03:32 PM
What's worse, Rolen batting fourth or Stubbs leading off? Both of those guys should be batting at the bottom of the order, not filling key positions.

You don't think Walt has anything to do with Rolen?
If he was writing out the lineup, guarantee you Rolen would hit in the same spot
But blasting Dusty is more fun, so don't let facts get in the way of a good bash session

joshua
04-14-2012, 04:01 PM
04/13/12: Lead off hitter's line going into the game: .077/.077/.154. He's yet to take a walk. I know Baker isn't into Sabremetriics, but Harris should never be starting let alone getting more plate appearances than anyone else in the lineup.

Ironman92
04-14-2012, 04:04 PM
For a while a few years ago Ryan Freel was the designated leadoff hitter when a lefty was pitching. I believe it lasted until Freel was something like 2/53 off of lefties.

joshua
04-14-2012, 04:05 PM
You don't think Walt has anything to do with Rolen?
If he was writing out the lineup, guarantee you Rolen would hit in the same spot
But blasting Dusty is more fun, so don't let facts get in the way of a good bash session

Facts? Facts are that a guy who has the third most K's in a season in MLB history is on track to get more plate apperances than anyone else on the team for the second season in a row. And a guy who's struggling at the plate is batting fourth, when the clean up candidate is right behind him in the order and should move up a spot. The fact that Dusty is noted to saying he doesn't like two lefties in a row should tell you that this is his move, not Jocketty's.

It's Dusty's job to put this team in the best position possible to win. If you think Walt is setting the line up every day, you're nuts. And if that is the case, which it isn't, someone with Dusty's years of baseball experience should recognize all of this and talk it out with Walt. Either way he's responsible.

LeDoux
04-14-2012, 04:06 PM
04/13/12: Lead off hitter's line going into the game: .077/.077/.154. He's yet to take a walk. I know Baker isn't into Sabremetriics, but Harris should never be starting let alone getting more plate appearances than anyone else in the lineup.

The problem with convicting Dusty of First Degree Willie Harris Overuse is that we will need to indict Walt as well- at least as an accessory. It is Dusty’s hands that may be committing the crime, but it was Walt who put the weapon there.

joshua
04-14-2012, 04:07 PM
For a while a few years ago Ryan Freel was the designated leadoff hitter when a lefty was pitching. I believe it lasted until Freel was something like 2/53 off of lefties.

I don't understand! According to some on here it's all Walt's fault! How can Jocketty be making dumb moves regarding the lead off hitter before he was even part of the Reds organziation?! The only explanation is that he's a super villain with a time machine who never let's Dusty make good baseball moves!
:laugh:

Ironman92
04-14-2012, 04:42 PM
We might get better bang for our buck to have Walt leadoff and Dusty bat cleanup

joshua
04-14-2012, 04:57 PM
We might get better bang for our buck to have Walt leadoff and Dusty bat cleanup

Walt couldn't be worse than Harris.

Ironman92
04-14-2012, 05:19 PM
Walt couldn't be worse than Harris.

And more importantly already on the payroll

markymark69
04-14-2012, 11:40 PM
That was a dumb move, but then again, Coazart should've still got the bunt down. At some point, you've got to put the onus on the players.

I agree with you on this point. People can argue the strategy - but the problem was the lack of execution on the play that was called. I know that Cozart is the new flavor of the month and he seems like he is going to be a good player - but if he's asked to bunt - he has to be able to lay down the bunt in that situation - not that it would have mattered with back-to-back strikeouts to end the inning.

kfm
04-15-2012, 10:15 AM
I agree with you on this point. People can argue the strategy - but the problem was the lack of execution on the play that was called. I know that Cozart is the new flavor of the month and he seems like he is going to be a good player - but if he's asked to bunt - he has to be able to lay down the bunt in that situation - not that it would have mattered with back-to-back strikeouts to end the inning.

Don't you know nothing is the players fault on this board. For what is worth, I agree with you. I would love to be a reds player on this board knowing, with few exceptions, I would never be held responsible for my failures or the teams.

Ironman92
04-15-2012, 12:04 PM
Dusty made a dumb decision....Cozart didn't pick him up.

This board has been on Harris, Stubbs, Rolen, Simon, Bailey, Latos, Ludwig to name some

Dusty, Jacoby and Walt have earned their stuff as well