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will5979
04-10-2012, 07:29 AM
I know its only 4 games in, but who are we kidding?

1. The offense sans Jay Bruce is pathetic right now.

2. No legit leadoff hitter.

3. No legit cleanup hitter.

4. Dusty is showing his ignorance more than ever.

5. Psychologically we get defeated badly just because its the damn Cardinals.

Just how in the blue hell does the owners think this club can seriously contend without a true leadoff and 4 hitter?

Assembly Hall
04-10-2012, 07:39 AM
I will wait until there are 44 games in the book.

will5979
04-10-2012, 07:46 AM
I will wait until there are 44 games in the book.

You're a more patient person than me! This rant more than anything is dealing with the fact that I'm a VERY sore loser, especially to the damn CArdinals, I want this series badly.

Plus I can take a loss better once we have more seperation in the W-L .500 category, like say 15-20 games over .500. :lol:

Red Raindog
04-10-2012, 07:47 AM
I will wait until there are 44 games in the book.

Right --- I will not panic this fast --- but I will show disgust for how they've shown up so far.

I know that huge contract that Votto signed will make him put even more pressure on himself so a slow start from him does not shock me - I just hope and expect he comes to grips with it quickly.

Sometimes high expectations and a win now perception can cause some players to fold --

good leadership should help there -- now I'm ready to panic --- :lol:

wvreds
04-10-2012, 09:58 AM
Im not throwing him under the bus but let me say this I am very disappointed on the start Votto is off to. Heres hoping it all clicks soon!

jhu1321
04-10-2012, 10:13 AM
It's been 4 GAMES!! Relax. :beerme:

Magdal
04-10-2012, 10:30 AM
I know its only 4 games in, but who are we kidding?

1. The offense sans Jay Bruce is pathetic right now.

2. No legit leadoff hitter.

3. No legit cleanup hitter.

4. Dusty is showing his ignorance more than ever.

5. Psychologically we get defeated badly just because its the damn Cardinals.

Just how in the blue hell does the owners think this club can seriously contend without a true leadoff and 4 hitter?
1. That will change

2. That's a problem

3. Not true. Baker is not useing him. Ludwick hits RHP just fine

4. Can't argue that

5. Yes, and it was by the #5 starter.

Ironman92
04-10-2012, 10:43 AM
Eh.....you know Votto will get himself going and be gangbusters the rest of the year....others will get going at times as well. Problem is slumps seem to last longer/happen more often for Reds players. I will continue to give a good bit of credit to Dustyball. Dustyball is seeing that first good pitch and smacking it....but with no regards to whether it really is a good pitch. It also gives no allowance for other teams possibly adjusting to this tendency.

The Reds have some good players and some good pitching...they'll be around the top of the central most of the year and provide us much joy.....but don't get too excited when things start going well because Dustyball cannot win it all....or maybe not even a playoff game.

will5979
04-10-2012, 10:49 AM
The Reds have some good players and some good pitching...they'll be around the top of the central most of the year and provide us much joy.....but don't get too excited when things start going well because Dustyball cannot win it all....or maybe not even a playoff game.

That is just it, you answered what I am arguing. This team WILL NOT WIN a World Series with Baker as the manager. I don't want to just win in the regular season...to paraphrase Jake Taylor I want to win the whole f'n thing.

These should be the goals...

1. Win 95 games.
2. Win the LDS in 4 games
3. Win the NLCS in 6 games
4. SWEEP the World Series!

I have 75-76-90 fever.

Stray
04-10-2012, 10:53 AM
Offense should heat up you would think. Votto has had a lotta opportunities to get runs in and failed miserably. Double play, strikeout, fly out...whatever.

I think it's safe to say that if he's struggling, the rest of our offense will also struggle. Cozart and Bruce are on fire tho.

texasdave
04-10-2012, 11:23 AM
Pitchers have been dominant here early in the season. The hitters will hit. This team just needs to get their pitchers to pitch.

Fun Fact of the Day: Drew Stubbs has yet to hit the ball out of the infield in 2012. With the way he finished up the last two months of 2011, that has to worry you a little.

Ironman92
04-10-2012, 11:50 AM
That is just it, you answered what I am arguing. This team WILL NOT WIN a World Series with Baker as the manager. I don't want to just win in the regular season...to paraphrase Jake Taylor I want to win the whole f'n thing.

These should be the goals...

1. Win 95 games.
2. Win the LDS in 4 games
3. Win the NLCS in 6 games
4. SWEEP the World Series!

I have 75-76-90 fever.

Yeah....I know. The Dusty years combined with BaBoon, Eeyore, Nary Jerron and Pete McFreel have kept me expecting little from the Reds in the grand picture.

The Reds cannot satisfy us with Dusty in charge. I believe this.

Who Dey Time
04-10-2012, 12:00 PM
The Reds cannot satisfy us with Dusty in charge. I believe this.

Disagree with this completely. There is a vast difference from the majority of the Reds fanbase and the message board managers who nit pick every move the man makes (and being completely irrational and illogical with a high percentage of their criticism).

TheBigLebowski
04-10-2012, 12:02 PM
Pitchers have been dominant here early in the season. The hitters will hit. This team just needs to get their pitchers to pitch.

Fun Fact of the Day: Drew Stubbs has yet to hit the ball out of the infield in 2012. With the way he finished up the last two months of 2011, that has to worry you a little.

Two Reds players of whom I have officially had enough:

Drew Stubbs
Homer Bailey

brm7675
04-10-2012, 12:03 PM
I personally have sold all of my Reds memborilla and tickets to this upcoming season and am now on the "Cubs" bandwagon...Lets go Cubbies...;)

wvreds
04-10-2012, 12:08 PM
Rolen is failing huge at the plate as well

Ironman92
04-10-2012, 12:23 PM
Disagree with this completely. There is a vast difference from the majority of the Reds fanbase and the message board managers who nit pick every move the man makes (and being completely irrational and illogical with a high percentage of their criticism).

No there isn't. First, I've not nit-picked much other than not getting Chapman to the rotation. They have made reason after reason after reason why Chapman won't start. In about 75 more games his time as a Reds player will be 1/2 over.....will he have a start by then? I just can't fathom spending $30 million for the phenom and having no clue how to get the best use from him. He's that expensive toy that is too valuable to play with. Take his butt out of the box, rub some dirt on him and play away.

This isn't all Dusty....but this is my only nit-pick of the year. I disagree with a few other things but mostly his dwelling on the 7th inning matchups and making the 7th inning more important than 1-6. He has said this is why Chapman is in the bullpen and why Bruce can't bat right after Votto.

His obsessiveness of batting the CF first and the SS was just comical until Phillips finally told him to let him bat 1st because he was not at all comfortable batting 4th.....where Dusty insisted he be.

Again, Dusty seems to be a great guy.....likely tremendous with grandchildren.....but I don't believe he can get the Reds where I want them to be. Disagree all you want....but generalizing me into your little bash group is unwarranted.

Ironman92
04-10-2012, 12:23 PM
I personally have sold all of my Reds memborilla and tickets to this upcoming season and am now on the "Cubs" bandwagon...Lets go Cubbies...;)

Boo that!

Who Dey Time
04-10-2012, 12:39 PM
No there isn't. First, I've not nit-picked much other than not getting Chapman to the rotation. They have made reason after reason after reason why Chapman won't start. In about 75 more games his time as a Reds player will be 1/2 over.....will he have a start by then? I just can't fathom spending $30 million for the phenom and having no clue how to get the best use from him. He's that expensive toy that is too valuable to play with. Take his butt out of the box, rub some dirt on him and play away.

This isn't all Dusty....but this is my only nit-pick of the year. I disagree with a few other things but mostly his dwelling on the 7th inning matchups and making the 7th inning more important than 1-6. He has said this is why Chapman is in the bullpen and why Bruce can't bat right after Votto.

His obsessiveness of batting the CF first and the SS was just comical until Phillips finally told him to let him bat 1st because he was not at all comfortable batting 4th.....where Dusty insisted he be.

Again, Dusty seems to be a great guy.....likely tremendous with grandchildren.....but I don't believe he can get the Reds where I want them to be. Disagree all you want....but generalizing me into your little bash group is unwarranted.

First and foremost, I didn't generalize you into any type of group....I never mentioned you. I simply disagreed with your point based on what I repeatedly see at Sun Deck.

More importantly though, what you list above are limitations placed on Dusty because of what is on this roster. That lies squarely at the feet of the GM and front office in building the team. Like another poster mentioned, who is a true leadoff hitter, who is a true 4-hitter on this club. The simple answer is we don't have them. Thus, you have to make best with the limitiations that you are faced with.

The only point I would agree with you on is Chapman but, until they get some arms back from injury, the pitching staff in its entirety is set up as best as it can. Once Masset is back and once Bray is 100% ready and once they make some type of decision on Leake and/or Bailey, you'll see him in the rotation.

Ironman92
04-10-2012, 12:59 PM
Those limitations are one thing but I have trouble believing Dusty doesn't want a lot of those players....Corey Patterson, Wily Taveras, Willie Harris and several others. He was clearly entrenched with batting whoever was playing SS second....sometimes OK....often funny. Stubbs/Janish is one of my favorites but many others competed.

Batting order wouldn't have changed much of anything but I would like to see some more professional hitting approaches. Is there somewhere I can check to see what teams have the most 9 and fewer pitch innings?

I'm done.

Go Reds!!! Prove me wrong Dusty! I'll gladly be wrong!

will5979
04-10-2012, 01:09 PM
Two Reds players of whom I have officially had enough:

Drew Stubbs
Homer Bailey

Add Scott Rolen's offense to the list for me.

I'm also sick of Homer Bailey holding Aroldis back from starting, and I'm sick of Drew STubbs not knowing how to freaking lead off.

bmwreds31
04-10-2012, 01:25 PM
Ive been saying it all through the off-Season that Moves needed to be made in this line-up. Or our offense was going to struggle.

People said No we will have votto/bruce, and BP now ludwick and upside of heisey and we will be just fine. PITCHING WINS championships.

Well 4 hits a game dont win championships i can tell you that. The hitting is just pathetic and has been for years. Its what has been holding us back over the past few years.

Worst thing about being a reds fan right now. Watching the reds face a Triple A talent pitcher and making him look like an all star in the bigs. :thumbdown:

fielder's choice
04-10-2012, 01:30 PM
Rolen hitting 4th is an absolute joke and needs to stop.

swaisuc
04-10-2012, 01:51 PM
Add Scott Rolen's offense to the list for me.

I'm also sick of Homer Bailey holding Aroldis back from starting, and I'm sick of Drew STubbs not knowing how to freaking lead off.

Why should he have to change his entire game to become a leadoff type hitter? Why not Ryan Hannigan? Why not Jay Bruce? Is it just because he's fast?

I'm not a Stubbs apologist, but I'll never understand why people are mad at him specifically that we don't have a leadoff man on this team.

BTW, Phillips has had some pretty good stats when leading off the last yr+.

brm7675
04-10-2012, 02:03 PM
Add Scott Rolen's offense to the list for me.

I'm also sick of Homer Bailey holding Aroldis back from starting, and I'm sick of Drew STubbs not knowing how to freaking lead off.

The people holding Aroldis back is not Homer or Bronson or any other player, it's Walt and Dusty.

bmwreds31
04-10-2012, 02:14 PM
Why should he have to change his entire game to become a leadoff type hitter? Why not Ryan Hannigan? Why not Jay Bruce? Is it just because he's fast?

I'm not a Stubbs apologist, but I'll never understand why people are mad at him specifically that we don't have a leadoff man on this team.

BTW, Phillips has had some pretty good stats when leading off the last yr+.


Stubbs has all the talent of a leadoff hitter is why people target him. he just refuses to use them properly.

swaisuc
04-10-2012, 02:33 PM
Stubbs has all the talent of a leadoff hitter is why people target him. he just refuses to use them properly.

Man, I completely disagree.

What do you consider the talents of a leadoff hitter?

For me, I would say on base percentage and ability to work deep in counts. I think that's pretty much the opposite of his skill set.

Ironman92
04-10-2012, 02:33 PM
Rolen hitting 4th is an absolute joke and needs to stop.

The 7th inning is too important...he must stay there.

Magdal
04-10-2012, 02:50 PM
The 7th inning is too important...he must stay there.I can't tell if you're joking...are you?

Ironman92
04-10-2012, 03:12 PM
I can't tell if you're joking...are you?

Yes Sir. Dusty is not.

justincredible
04-10-2012, 03:23 PM
We have a legit cleanup hitter. His name is Jay Bruce. Unfortunately two lefties can't hit back-to-back in anticipation of that 7th inning LOOGY matchup.

JohnnyBench
04-10-2012, 03:44 PM
I know its only 4 games in, but who are we kidding?

1. The offense sans Jay Bruce is pathetic right now.

2. No legit leadoff hitter.

3. No legit cleanup hitter.

4. Dusty is showing his ignorance more than ever.

5. Psychologically we get defeated badly just because its the damn Cardinals.

Just how in the blue hell does the owners think this club can seriously contend without a true leadoff and 4 hitter?

Thanks for the reminder, Will, as to why I continue to come to this forum less and less.

krm1580
04-10-2012, 04:16 PM
We have a legit cleanup hitter. His name is Jay Bruce. Unfortunately two lefties can't hit back-to-back in anticipation of that 7th inning LOOGY matchup.

Totally agree! I am not like most on here that kill Dusty Baker for everything. I think he is an ideal manager for a plug and play team like the Yankees or Red Sox where he just rolls out the same lineup every night and manages egos. With a team like the Reds you really need someone that is willing to be flexible and try to work with what we have.

If there were 2 things I would change on this team, the first one would be to move Stubbs to the #2 spot in the order. He has talent but poor pitch recognition, especially with out of the zone junk. You put him in front of Votto he is going to see a lot more fastballs and a lot less junk. He should be able to get on base more and if he is on base, Votto is going to see more fastballs.

Second thing is move Bruce to #4. He is the only cleanup bat on this team. The fact they put him at #5 simply to break up the lefties is ridiculous.

Carin4Narron
04-10-2012, 04:48 PM
It's these kinds of threads that made me stopped reading posts much. Don't worry be happy people. There's more to life than depending on a darn baseball team for your personal happiness or self worth!

redhat
04-10-2012, 05:02 PM
Just how in the blue hell does the owners think this club can seriously contend without a true leadoff and 4 hitter?
Cheer up. You could live in Philadelphia and be watching this offense:

Hunter Pence and some old guys.

bmwreds31
04-10-2012, 05:14 PM
Man, I completely disagree.

What do you consider the talents of a leadoff hitter?

For me, I would say on base percentage and ability to work deep in counts. I think that's pretty much the opposite of his skill set.

What you just said there^ are not talents but a mind set as to how you go about your business at the plate. aka things you can change.

What talents do you need to be a good lead off hitter. Really truely.

-Balls>>crowd the plate and make the pitcher push you off it.

-Speed>>>Duh

-Ability to choke up and put the bat on the ball>>>Really just a mindset but takes practice to be great at. Any ball player in the bigs should be able to do this.

Really the only god given talents you need.

Aside from the balls part he has all of those. But truely i havent seen anyone in the majors play the game hard nose like we did in highschool and college for quite sometime.

CrosleyField
04-10-2012, 05:23 PM
This is an idiotic thread for April 10 after 4 games.

Mutaman
04-10-2012, 05:24 PM
Just like last year:

1. Inconsisent starting pitching.

2. Pretty bad middle relief pitching.

3. Inability to handle right handed pitching because we don't have enough left handed bats on this team.

Magdal
04-10-2012, 05:30 PM
I think Baker should be shot for not batting Votto/Bruce....in my mind it goes past idiocy.:thumbdown:

Mutaman
04-10-2012, 05:39 PM
I think Baker should be shot for not batting Votto/Bruce....in my mind it goes past idiocy.:thumbdown:

I'm not sure if I understand the above, but if you're saying Votto/Bruce are enough left handed bats, where have you been the last 2 years? Last night was a perfect example- a mediocre right handed picher pitches around Votto and Bruce and then bears down against all the other righties in the lineup. It happens all the time. In addition, when its time to bring someone off the bench, we've got Fred Lewis/Willie Harris plus a bunch of righties.

I just don't understand the refusal of Walt, Dusty, and the majority of fans to recognize how we are getting killed by lack of left handed hitting.

RedsfaninMT
04-10-2012, 07:30 PM
Holy **** is there some overreaction on this thread. Yes, it's been a frustrating start to the season, but the team is 2-2 right now. Can we give it a week or two before everyone starts jumping off bridges? This isn't a 16-game NFL season or strike-shortened NBA season. We have 158 games left.

How about letting 10% play out before giving up?

texasdave
04-10-2012, 07:33 PM
Holy **** is there some overreaction on this thread. Yes, it's been a frustrating start to the season, but the team is 2-2 right now. Can we give it a week or two before everyone starts jumping off bridges? This isn't a 16-game NFL season or strike-shortened NBA season. We have 158 games left.

How about letting 10% play out before giving up?

We heard this all last year from the "it's a marathon and not a sprint" crowd. Heard it from Dusty and Walt and the players as well. How'd that work out? Aside from 2010, Reds' fans have been treated to pretty much a decade's worth of crappy play. Maybe it is a Pavlov's dog type reaction. I don't know. But I can't blame folks for being antsy.

RedsfaninMT
04-10-2012, 09:12 PM
We heard this all last year from the "it's a marathon and not a sprint" crowd. Heard it from Dusty and Walt and the players as well. How'd that work out? Aside from 2010, Reds' fans have been treated to pretty much a decade's worth of crappy play. Maybe it is a Pavlov's dog type reaction. I don't know. But I can't blame folks for being antsy.

C'mon man! 4 games! Really? Yanks, Red Sox and Angels are all done. Orioles are in.

redsfanmia
04-10-2012, 09:24 PM
The offense save for Cozart and Bruce is brutal right now, I just think the offense is over rated and they will struggle to score runs most nights.

EMAW
04-10-2012, 09:42 PM
5 games in and people are in a panic mode= RIDICULOUS

will5979
04-10-2012, 09:56 PM
5 games in and people are in a panic mode= RIDICULOUS

I don't care if its April 10 or August 10, if my team is under .500, I'm in panic mode.

texasdave
04-10-2012, 09:59 PM
X

texasdave
04-10-2012, 10:01 PM
X

Stray
04-10-2012, 10:55 PM
Dusty needs to change things up tomorrow. If for no other reason, just to change things up. Bruce 4th...well I was going to run off some ideas, but thinking about the guys we have, and how many of them are sucking right now, I'm out.

webbbj
04-10-2012, 11:27 PM
rolen should not be batting 4th. regardless the reds are no where near trouble.