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mattfeet
04-10-2012, 10:15 PM
Bailey:

"I just got a little passive with two outs," Bailey said. "I didn't stay aggressive. Once you open that can, it's kind of hard to shut sometimes. The wind blowing out like that, small park -- it's going to happen. After the first, I just tried to get as deep into the game as I could."

Latos:

"I was trying to be too fine," Latos said. "New ballclub, new scenery. I was just trying to do too much. I wanted the first impression to be good. [Johnny] Cueto threw a gem the other day. I was trying to be too perfect. It backfired and went the opposite way."

In my opinion, the quote of Bailey's just sums him up in a nutshell. There always seems to be some excuse with why an outing didn't go quite as well as it should (could) have. Meanwhile, Latos comes over here to an entirely different new situation, and his only excuse is that he was trying to be too perfect for his debut. He was so visibly distraught post-game, and you could really tell that he was disappointed in himself. To me, this speaks volumes, and shows that Latos will always be trying to better himself while Bailey still thinks he might be "the one" that comes with being so highly touted all these years. Maybe my thoughts are completely unfounded, but I just do not get the sense from Bailey that he's all that upset when he has a poor outing.

But hey, the wind was blowing, and that's going to happen.

-Matt

Homer Bailey
04-10-2012, 10:32 PM
"I just got a little passive with two outs," Bailey said. "I didn't stay aggressive. Once you open that can, it's kind of hard to shut sometimes. The wind blowing out like that, small park -- it's going to happen. After the first, I just tried to get as deep into the game as I could."

Latos:

"I was trying to be too fine," Latos said. "New ballclub, new scenery. I was just trying to do too much. I wanted the first impression to be good. [Johnny] Cueto threw a gem the other day. I was trying to be too perfect. It backfired and went the opposite way."

You can also highlight different parts of the quotes and flip the entire thesis around. IMO, you're reading too much into words said to the media. Bailey fully admitted things he did wrong. The wind and the park were not used as excuses anymore than any excuses that Latos mentioned (new park, etc.).

reds44
04-10-2012, 10:34 PM
I like Latos more because he's better at baseball.

Maybe that's just me.

mattfeet
04-10-2012, 10:38 PM
"I just got a little passive with two outs," Bailey said. "I didn't stay aggressive. Once you open that can, it's kind of hard to shut sometimes. The wind blowing out like that, small park -- it's going to happen. After the first, I just tried to get as deep into the game as I could."

Latos:

"I was trying to be too fine," Latos said. "New ballclub, new scenery. I was just trying to do too much. I wanted the first impression to be good. [Johnny] Cueto threw a gem the other day. I was trying to be too perfect. It backfired and went the opposite way."

You can also highlight different parts of the quotes and flip the entire thesis around. IMO, you're reading too much into words said to the media. Bailey fully admitted things he did wrong. The wind and the park were not used as excuses anymore than any excuses that Latos mentioned (new park, etc.).

I see your point, and Bailey still might blossom into a very good SP, but I just think the biggest issue is between his ears.

-Matt

Nasty_Boy
04-10-2012, 10:41 PM
What about Leake vs Bailey? Leake will get praised for his outing tonight, while Homer was vilified for his outing. All I know is the only real good outing turned in thus far is by Mr Cueto... This thread (reading into media quotes) and others are enormous overreactions at this point. The offense has struggled for two games, maybe we need another Jay Bruce hitting thread.

mattfeet
04-10-2012, 10:44 PM
What about Leake vs Bailey? Leake will get praised for his outing tonight, while Homer was vilified for his outing. All I know is the only real good outing turned in thus far is by Mr Cueto... This thread (reading into media quotes) and others are enormous overreactions at this point. The offense has struggled for two games, maybe we need another Jay Bruce hitting thread.

It's not an overreaction on this season. Bailey has showed glimpses of brilliance but just can't put everything together. I PERSONALLY just feel that Bailey doesn't have the mental fortitude to become who he COULD be.

Nasty_Boy
04-10-2012, 10:44 PM
I see your point, and Bailey still might blossom into a very good SP, but I just think the biggest issue is between his ears.

-Matt

Not trying to be controversial at all, but I have read many times that Latos is a headcase. You get guys out you're a competitor... You struggle you're a hot head. Just depends on who is doing to writing/talking.

Nasty_Boy
04-10-2012, 10:50 PM
I understand your feelings and respect your opinion... He may not turn out as a pitcher in the big leagues, but I'm PERSONALLY don't believe it's in his head. He's still young in years and in big league time, not a baby, but he's still young. I guess my opinion just differs on what you can read into a quote to the media, that may have had some context leading up to your highlighted point.

757690
04-10-2012, 11:06 PM
"I just got a little passive with two outs," Bailey said. "I didn't stay aggressive. Once you open that can, it's kind of hard to shut sometimes. The wind blowing out like that, small park -- it's going to happen. After the first, I just tried to get as deep into the game as I could."

Latos:

"I was trying to be too fine," Latos said. "New ballclub, new scenery. I was just trying to do too much. I wanted the first impression to be good. [Johnny] Cueto threw a gem the other day. I was trying to be too perfect. It backfired and went the opposite way."

You can also highlight different parts of the quotes and flip the entire thesis around. IMO, you're reading too much into words said to the media. Bailey fully admitted things he did wrong. The wind and the park were not used as excuses anymore than any excuses that Latos mentioned (new park, etc.).

I don't see Latos making excuses in his quote the same way that Bailey did. The New ballpark, new scenery was a reason why Latos was trying too hard, which was his one excuse for failing in his start, he was teyimg ro I press a new club. Bailey was blaming the size of the ballpark and the weather. Big difference, imo.

But the biggest difference is that we have heard these excuses time and time again from Bailey. Maybe we will keep hearing them from Latos, but I'm getting tired of the same excuses from Bailey.

Redhook
04-10-2012, 11:10 PM
I PERSONALLY just feel that Bailey doesn't have the mental fortitude to become who he COULD be.

I think we can all agree that Homer needs to improve when adversity strikes, but I'm not so sure it's just his mental fortitude that holds him back. His stuff isn't that good. His fastball is flat as a pancake and it's not so fast anymore. His other pitches are ok, but they're nothing special. He doesn't have the best control. He's an average pitcher with a lot of question marks.

mattfeet
04-10-2012, 11:21 PM
I don't see Latos making excuses in his quote the same way that Bailey did. The New ballpark, new scenery was a reason why Latos was trying too hard, which was his one excuse for failing in his start, he was teyimg ro I press a new club. Bailey was blaming the size of the ballpark and the weather. Big difference, imo.

But the biggest difference is that we have heard these excuses time and time again from Bailey. Maybe we will keep hearing them from Latos, but I'm getting tired of the same excuses from Bailey.

You said it better than I was trying to. :beerme:

Griffey012
04-10-2012, 11:31 PM
If you are a good pitcher you recognize it is a small park with the wind blowing out and adjust. Wind or no wind, he didn't get the job done. Yet, he didn't admit to not getting the job done...the quotes are somewhat alarming in my opinion.

The "it's going to happen" part should be referring to a guy getting out in front of a changeup, lunging and popping one that carries into the first row. The three home runs he game up were bad pitchers that were hit square, maybe they would not have gone out everywhere, but they were hit squarely nonetheless.

Tom Servo
04-11-2012, 12:21 AM
Latos is more Thug Life than Bailey.

Captain Hook
04-11-2012, 12:31 AM
I think we can all agree that Homer needs to improve when adversity strikes, but I'm not so sure it's just his mental fortitude that holds him back. His stuff isn't that good. His fastball is flat as a pancake and it's not so fast anymore. His other pitches are ok, but they're nothing special. He doesn't have the best control. He's an average pitcher with a lot of question marks.

He gave up 4 runs on 3 HR in the first inning then managed to give the team 4 2/3 solid innings.5 2/3 innings with 4 runs allowed is nothing to brag about but adversity struck and Bailey was able to get his act together.

RedsManRick
04-11-2012, 12:34 AM
Can somebody just buy Bailey a black hat so we can move on?

REDREAD
04-11-2012, 12:35 AM
What about Leake vs Bailey? Leake will get praised for his outing tonight, while Homer was vilified for his outing. All I know is the only real good outing turned in thus far is by Mr Cueto... This thread (reading into media quotes) and others are enormous overreactions at this point. The offense has struggled for two games, maybe we need another Jay Bruce hitting thread.

I did not hear the entire game.
Leake got into trouble in the first inning, yet was able to coax a double play ball and limit the damage to 1 run.
Whether that is luck or skill is debatable, but I feel more comfortable with Leake.

Leake did go 6 IP and only gave up 3 runs.. That's the second best pitching performance this year.. lol.. not spectacular, but a quality start, something only Cueto was only able to pull off, IIRC.

I really home Homer pulls it together. They need him to at least pitch .500 ball and eat innings. (In other words, average ERA or whatever metric you choose and be durable). That's not asking a whole lot, but I'm not sure he can pull it off.

757690
04-11-2012, 12:42 AM
He gave up 4 runs on 3 HR in the first inning then managed to give the team 4 2/3 solid innings.5 2/3 innings with 4 runs allowed is nothing to brag about but adversity struck and Bailey was able to get his act together.

Bailey did get his act together Monday night, but only after he crapped pants in the first.

Both Bailey and Leake give up a homer in the first. Leake buckelded down, while Bailey buckelded under.

SirFelixCat
04-11-2012, 12:48 AM
Or it was jitters the first innings of the year. Nah....

Captain Hook
04-11-2012, 12:54 AM
Bailey did get his act together Monday night, but only after he crapped pants in the first.

Both Bailey and Leake give up a homer in the first. Leake buckelded down, while Bailey buckelded under.

It's not like those are the only HR's that Holliday, Freese and Molina will hit this year.Those guys mash and will do so against some pretty good pitchers during the course of this season.Leake gave up one less run and got one more out then Homer did and he's the man.IMO the two had very comparable outings against the Cards.

757690
04-11-2012, 12:55 AM
Can somebody just buy Bailey a black hat so we can move on?

I'd prefer giving him a Red Sox cap ;)

edabbs44
04-11-2012, 08:08 AM
Can somebody just buy Bailey a black hat so we can move on?

RZ needs someone to kick around the board. With previous award winners like Gomes, Cabrera and Janish no longer in Cincy, he might be the sacrificial lamb by default. Oh, and Dusty as well.

Don't worry that the team only scored one run that night. And last night, ironically, even though Leake didn't take the wind out their sails in the 1st.

Nasty_Boy
04-11-2012, 08:44 AM
I did not hear the entire game.
Leake got into trouble in the first inning, yet was able to coax a double play ball and limit the damage to 1 run.
Whether that is luck or skill is debatable, but I feel more comfortable with Leake.

Leake did go 6 IP and only gave up 3 runs.. That's the second best pitching performance this year.. lol.. not spectacular, but a quality start, something only Cueto was only able to pull off, IIRC.

I really home Homer pulls it together. They need him to at least pitch .500 ball and eat innings. (In other words, average ERA or whatever metric you choose and be durable). That's not asking a whole lot, but I'm not sure he can pull it off.

The difference in Bailey and Leake's outing was 1 pitch... Bailey gave up a HR to Molina, while Scotty Rolen bailed Leake out with a great play to turn two.

There was not much difference between the two outings. I give Leake credit for pitching around a leadoff double and doing a good job of keeping the team in the game... On the same token, Homer did the exact same thing. He battled back after a rough frame and gave the team quality innings. IMO, the difference is the name on the back and the perception that comes with that name.

traderumor
04-11-2012, 09:02 AM
Yea folks are just picking on poor Homer. It has nothing to do with performance and concern that he is not going to do his job for the team to win games. Its just whipping boy talk.

Nasty_Boy
04-11-2012, 09:40 AM
Yea folks are just picking on poor Homer. It has nothing to do with performance and concern that he is not going to do his job for the team to win games. Its just whipping boy talk.

If it had to do with performance then Latos, Leake, and Arroyo would all be called into question. Going back a season, Leake was solid but not much better than Homer. Latos is obviously a stud when he's right, but his head has been called into question by SD fans and writers. Arroyo was the worst pitcher in the league last season. So I'd say going forward that Homer could very well be the Reds 3rd best pitcher behind Cueto and Latos. It wouldn't surprise me one bit to see him out pitch Arroyo and Leake in the long run. But people are picking and choosing what they want to get ticked off at when it comes to Bailey. People see what they want to see. I see a kid that had a rough first inning and bounced back strong the rest of the way. Leake's performance last night was almost a mirror image of Bailey's on Monday. He battled, was the benefit of a nice defensive play, and gave up a couple of bombs.

757690
04-11-2012, 10:18 AM
The difference in Bailey and Leake's outing was 1 pitch... Bailey gave up a HR to Molina, while Scotty Rolen bailed Leake out with a great play to turn two.

There was not much difference between the two outings. I give Leake credit for pitching around a leadoff double and doing a good job of keeping the team in the game... On the same token, Homer did the exact same thing. He battled back after a rough frame and gave the team quality innings. IMO, the difference is the name on the back and the perception that comes with that name.

Mrs. Lincoln had a nice time at the play, except for that one interruption ;) Nearly every game hinges on one pitch or one at bat. This ain't horsehoes.

And funny how Leake almost always has been able to make that one pitch that keeps him in the game, while Homer has been much less likely to. Must be a 2+ year long streak of luck for each of them ;)

Hoosier Red
04-11-2012, 10:33 AM
Mrs. Lincoln had a nice time at the play, except for that one interruption ;) Nearly every game hinges on one pitch or one at bat. This ain't horsehoes.

And funny how Leake almost always has been able to make that one pitch that keeps him in the game, while Homer has been much less likely to. Must be a 2+ year long streak of luck for each of them ;)

And yet over the course of 6 innings, he gave up 1 less run. Now maybe he'll give up one less run every start(have my doubts) but Homer's outing was described by many as terrible and Leake's performance was described by some as outstanding.

Surely there has to be more of a difference between outstanding and disasterous than 1/3 IP and 1 run.

CySeymour
04-11-2012, 10:40 AM
And yet over the course of 6 innings, he gave up 1 less run. Now maybe he'll give up one less run every start(have my doubts) but Homer's outing was described by many as terrible and Leake's performance was described by some as outstanding.

Surely there has to be more of a difference between outstanding and disasterous than 1/3 IP and 1 run.

No kidding. Homer settled down and shut the Cards down the rest of the time he was in the game. He gave his team a chance to stay in the game. That game was as much the offenses fault as it was his.

JaxRed
04-11-2012, 10:41 AM
I see no differences in the excuses for Latos and Bailey.

redsmetz
04-11-2012, 10:42 AM
Just now reading this thread. I think, as others have noted, folks use the filter they want to make their point. The fact is, the wind blows out, these things can happen. We all know that. I agree with the emphasis on the first part of his statement - he lost focus. I've been mulling this over and, again someone said something akin to this, but Bailey has youth going for him, but five years into his big league career and two years where he seems to have matured, there's no excuse for having lost that focus after the first home run. He did pitch well after the first inning, but he put us behind the eight ball and with our sleeping offense at the moment, took us out of the game.

This is a critical year for Bailey. I continue to hope he'll reach his potential, but he can't afford to not stay focused throughout the entire game - wind or no wind. It's time, as they say to [deleted] or get off the pot.

Tommyjohn25
04-11-2012, 10:49 AM
I'd just like to know how one "gets too passive" when you have the number 3 hitter from the World Series champs standing in the batters box.

wolfboy
04-11-2012, 11:00 AM
And yet over the course of 6 innings, he gave up 1 less run. Now maybe he'll give up one less run every start(have my doubts) but Homer's outing was described by many as terrible and Leake's performance was described by some as outstanding.

Surely there has to be more of a difference between outstanding and disasterous than 1/3 IP and 1 run.

It's an exercise in futility.

MikeS21
04-11-2012, 11:05 AM
It's not an overreaction on this season. Bailey has showed glimpses of brilliance but just can't put everything together. I PERSONALLY just feel that Bailey doesn't have the mental fortitude to become who he COULD be.
Unfortunately, two years from now, we could be saying the exact same thing about Latos.

I have never been as high on Latos as some have around here, and probably its because I feel the same way about him that many feel about Bailey. I have no doubt the potential is there - both in Latos AND Bailey - to be absolute studs. I'm just not sure the potential will realize reality in either.

membengal
04-11-2012, 11:17 AM
Except that Latos, has, and this is a crucial difference, actually delivered a really outstanding season in his career, and Bailey has never come close.

traderumor
04-11-2012, 11:23 AM
If it had to do with performance then Latos, Leake, and Arroyo would all be called into question. Going back a season, Leake was solid but not much better than Homer. Latos is obviously a stud when he's right, but his head has been called into question by SD fans and writers. Arroyo was the worst pitcher in the league last season. So I'd say going forward that Homer could very well be the Reds 3rd best pitcher behind Cueto and Latos. It wouldn't surprise me one bit to see him out pitch Arroyo and Leake in the long run. But people are picking and choosing what they want to get ticked off at when it comes to Bailey. People see what they want to see. I see a kid that had a rough first inning and bounced back strong the rest of the way. Leake's performance last night was almost a mirror image of Bailey's on Monday. He battled, was the benefit of a nice defensive play, and gave up a couple of bombs.Obviously, obviously, this is about more than the first start of the season. And Latos has already been what some hope is the best case scenario for Bailey. So has Leake.

As for lack of objectivity in the views of Bailey, of course you are the objective voice of reason. Thanks for bringing that to the discussion.

RichRed
04-11-2012, 11:33 AM
I'd just like to know how one "gets too passive" when you have the number 3 hitter from the World Series champs standing in the batters box.

It sounds like mumbo-jumbo to me. Like Redhook said, his stuff wasn't that great, but it's easier to say "my approach was off" because that implies something correctable. However, if he owned up to not having the "stuff," that would raise a bigger red flag.

Nasty_Boy
04-11-2012, 12:16 PM
Obviously, obviously, this is about more than the first start of the season. And Latos has already been what some hope is the best case scenario for Bailey. So has Leake.

As for lack of objectivity in the views of Bailey, of course you are the objective voice of reason. Thanks for bringing that to the discussion.

If it's more than just the first start of the season then that's fine... The problem I have with it is there is a double standard when talking about Bailey compared to others. He's had his struggles, he hasn't lived up to his hype, but I see a guy that has improved in his time in the big leagues. He may have all of these faults that you and others throw out there, but as others have stated, he is still pretty young. This is a critical season for the guy, no doubt... But I feel it's picking nits when we are breaking down post game quotes, having Daugherty writing about his "rotation worthiness", and vilifing the guy over one bad inning. Yes, there are many opinions formed because of his history on the mound... But much attention is given to his "horrible" start, while Leake's "gutsy" performance is being lauded.

RedsManRick
04-11-2012, 12:19 PM
Mrs. Lincoln had a nice time at the play, except for that one interruption ;) Nearly every game hinges on one pitch or one at bat. This ain't horsehoes.

And funny how Leake almost always has been able to make that one pitch that keeps him in the game, while Homer has been much less likely to. Must be a 2+ year long streak of luck for each of them ;)

In 2011:

Homer Bailey allowed 4 or more runs in 8 of his 22 GS (36%). He averaged exactly 6 IP/GS.

Mike Leake allowed 4 or more runs in 8 of his 26 GS (31%). He averaged 6 1/3 IP/GS.

Was Mike Leake better than Homer Bailey at keeping his team in the game last year? Yep. He had the equivalent of 1 fewer start over the course of the season with 4 or more ER allowed and averaged 1/3 more per start.

Or if you prefer the quality start barometer, Leake threw 69% QS last year. Homer was at 59%.

Again, Leake has done better than Bailey on the ERA front, no doubt. Is he better at keeping his team in the game? Yeah, in 2011 he was. But what's the scale of that difference? It's something like 2 games over the course of the year where Leake kept the team "in the game" and Homer didn't. And as we saw yesterday, it doesn't really matter if you keep your team in the game if they don't score enough runs.

Maybe those are differences some people find worth getting all worked up about. Personally, I think it's much more a function of perception than reality. Mike Leake has been a marginally better pitcher than Homer Bailey. If we convert that difference in to their contribution to the team winning games, the difference between is less than a single win -- if we assume the same number of GS. And there's the rub. The biggest difference between between Bailey and Leake isn't what they do when they're on the mound. It's that Leake has been better at actually getting himself on the mound to begin with. Complaints with Bailey should start with his challenges staying healthy.

I hope Bailey does better in the future. But the difference between them hardly justifies the outpouring of love for Leake and of disgust for Bailey.

traderumor
04-11-2012, 12:27 PM
If it's more than just the first start of the season then that's fine... The problem I have with it is there is a double standard when talking about Bailey compared to others. He's had his struggles, he hasn't lived up to his hype, but I see a guy that has improved in his time in the big leagues. He may have all of these faults that you and others throw out there, but as others have stated, he is still pretty young. This is a critical season for the guy, no doubt... But I feel it's picking nits when we are breaking down post game quotes, having Daugherty writing about his "rotation worthiness", and vilifing the guy over one bad inning. Yes, there are many opinions formed because of his history on the mound... But much attention is given to his "horrible" start, while Leake's "gutsy" performance is being lauded.Arroyo had one bad inning, lead is gone. Giving up runs is the issue, not the allocation by inning. Bailey gives up 4.5 per nine. Not gonna win many of his starts without dramatic improvement, so when does it come? Does it ever come? That's the only thing that really matters.

757690
04-11-2012, 12:33 PM
I see no differences in the excuses for Latos and Bailey.

Latos' excuse was that he was trying too hard.

Bailey's excuse was that he wasn't trying hard enough.

I see a big difference between those two excuses.

757690
04-11-2012, 12:54 PM
In 2011:

Homer Bailey allowed 4 or more runs in 8 of his 22 GS (36%). He averaged exactly 6 IP/GS.

Mike Leake allowed 4 or more runs in 8 of his 26 GS (31%). He averaged 6 1/3 IP/GS.

Was Mike Leake better than Homer Bailey at keeping his team in the game last year? Yep. He had the equivalent of 1 fewer start over the course of the season with 4 or more ER allowed and averaged 1/3 more per start.

Or if you prefer the quality start barometer, Leake threw 69% QS last year. Homer was at 59%.

Again, Leake has done better than Bailey on the ERA front, no doubt. Is he better at keeping his team in the game? Yeah, in 2011 he was. But what's the scale of that difference? It's something like 2 games over the course of the year where Leake kept the team "in the game" and Homer didn't. And as we saw yesterday, it doesn't really matter if you keep your team in the game if they don't score enough runs.

Maybe those are differences some people find worth getting all worked up about. Personally, I think it's much more a function of perception than reality. Mike Leake has been a marginally better pitcher than Homer Bailey. If we convert that difference in to their contribution to the team winning games, the difference between is less than a single win -- if we assume the same number of GS. And there's the rub. The biggest difference between between Bailey and Leake isn't what they do when they're on the mound. It's that Leake has been better at actually getting himself on the mound to begin with. Complaints with Bailey should start with his challenges staying healthy.

I hope Bailey does better in the future. But the difference between them hardly justifies the outpouring of love for Leake and of disgust for Bailey.

Good post. Thanks for the detailed information. Agree especially in the health issue.

My biggest issue is that Leake showed improvement and development from his first season to his second. Bailey hasn't shown that over the last few years.

Nasty_Boy
04-11-2012, 01:18 PM
Arroyo had one bad inning, lead is gone. Giving up runs is the issue, not the allocation by inning. Bailey gives up 4.5 per nine. Not gonna win many of his starts without dramatic improvement, so when does it come? Does it ever come? That's the only thing that really matters.

ERA has it's faults but by ERA alone it has improved the last few seasons... Arroyo's runs per 9 were out of this world last year. I'm not disputing that Arroyo has been better than Bailey, I'm not even disputing that Leake has been better. All I'm saying is that Bailey is young, has shown improvement, was better than Arroyo last season, was just behind Leake last season, and all of the staff besides Cueto had ONE inning in which they didn't look good and put the team behind the 8 ball.

Does his time come? I don't know... I do know that his time is more likely to come than Arroyo's is to come again. And he is still young enough and void of serious arm injuries that he can still be better than Mike Leake. Leake has been solid, no disputing that, and I root hard for Leake and every other Reds hurler. I'm just saying Mike Leake wasn't any better last night than Homer Bailey was the night before. And he certainly wasn't any worse than Arroyo or Latos their first time out. I'm willing to run the guy out there until he proves he's not one of the Reds top 5 options in the rotation... Right now, IMO, he is one of the top 5 options.

Nasty_Boy
04-11-2012, 01:20 PM
Good post. Thanks for the detailed information. Agree especially in the health issue.

My biggest issue is that Leake showed improvement and development from his first season to his second. Bailey hasn't shown that over the last few years.

I would like to know what area Bailey has not shown improvement in over the last few seasons? Not trying to be controversial, I just want to know what areas you are talking about

Homer Bailey
04-11-2012, 01:20 PM
Good post. Thanks for the detailed information. Agree especially in the health issue.

My biggest issue is that Leake showed improvement and development from his first season to his second. Bailey hasn't shown that over the last few years.

K/B:

2007: 1.00
2008: 1.06
2009: 1.65
2010: 2.50
2011: 3.21

He has improved, at least in one very key area. His FIP and xFIP have generally trended down. He didn't do a great job of keeping it in the park next year, but you can't say he hasn't improved.

I'll admit, I'm not very comfortable when he takes the mound, but I'm that way with pretty much all Reds starters. It's still not a very good bunch, IMO.

I just don't think its accurate to say Bailey hasn't improved.

wolfboy
04-11-2012, 01:22 PM
K/B:

2007: 1.00
2008: 1.06
2009: 1.65
2010: 2.50
2011: 3.21

He has improved, at least in one very key area. His FIP and xFIP have generally trended down. He didn't do a great job of keeping it in the park next year, but you can't say he hasn't improved.

I'll admit, I'm not very comfortable when he takes the mound, but I'm that way with pretty much all Reds starters. It's still not a very good bunch, IMO.

I just don't think its accurate to say Bailey hasn't improved.

He's also improved in IP/GS, a seemingly common complaint about Bailey.

RedlegJake
04-11-2012, 01:23 PM
After a bad first inning Homer kept the Reds in it. Yes it was disappointing but the Reds have to score runs for crying out loud. 7 hits and 2 runs in 2 games isn't going to win much no matter who is on the mound. Wainwright and Lohse. Woo, color me scared. It's not like the Cards conjured Gibson and Dean from the past and threw them at the Reds. Bailey settled down - I don't see his start as awful - just so-so. His teammates have to pick him up. Arroyo had a decent start Sunday with one bad inning but the Reds made it work because they actually scored runs and were in the game. These guys are not going to look like world beaters every time they take the mound - Bailey will have his moments this summer - but it isn't going to matter if this supposedly vaunted offense can't get more than 3 hits off decent but not great pitchers facing them.

Nasty_Boy
04-11-2012, 01:24 PM
After a bad first inning Homer kept the Reds in it. Yes it was disappointing but the Reds have to score runs for crying out loud. 7 hits and 2 runs in 2 games isn't going to win much no matter who is on the mound. Wainwright and Lohse. Woo, color me scared. It's not like the Cards conjured Gibson and Dean from the past and threw them at the Reds. Bailey settled down - I don't see his start as awful - just so-so. His teammates have to pick him up. Arroyo had a decent start Sunday with one bad inning but the Reds made it work because they actually scored runs and were in the game. These guys are not going to look like world beaters every time they take the mound - Bailey will have his moments this summer - but it isn't going to matter if this supposedly vaunted offense can't get more than 3 hits off decent but not great pitchers facing them.

:beerme::beerme::beerme:

757690
04-11-2012, 01:29 PM
I would like to know what area Bailey has not shown improvement in over the last few seasons? Not trying to be controversial, I just want to know what areas you are talking about

He still makes the same mistakes he made in his rookie year. he throws too many crap pitches in key situations, and then blames everything else but himself.

Sure some of peripherals have improved, but they have produced the same results, year after year. If he produces better results this year, I will admit he has improved. So far this spring, he has not.

RedsManRick
04-11-2012, 01:45 PM
He still makes the same mistakes he made in his rookie year. he throws too many crap pitches in key situations, and then blames everything else but himself.

Sure some of peripherals have improved, but they have produced the same results, year after year. If he produces better results this year, I will admit he has improved. So far this spring, he has not.

Question, how has Bailey managed to do that? How has he managed to improve his peripherals without getting better results? Is he getting worse at something that's not showing up in the standard stats?

I understand the basic nature of the critique. At the end of the day, the results are what matters. I just want to understand what people think is going on.

Because if he's always had problems with bad pitches and blaming others, then he still should be improving against that baseline -- unless something is offsetting the gains we're seeing elsewhere.

wolfboy
04-11-2012, 01:48 PM
He still makes the same mistakes he made in his rookie year. he throws too many crap pitches in key situations, and then blames everything else but himself.

Sure some of peripherals have improved, but they have produced the same results, year after year. If he produces better results this year, I will admit he has improved. So far this spring, he has not.

So you don't like peripherals. Last season, he posted career highs in wins (bullpen blew quite a few), IP, starts, and strikeouts. He posted career lows in ERA and walks. I fail to see how that is improvement. Has he developed into an ace pitcher? Not by a long shot. Has he improved? Without a doubt.

757690
04-11-2012, 01:52 PM
So you don't like peripherals. Last season, he posted career highs in wins (bullpen blew quite a few), IP, starts, and strikeouts. He posted career lows in ERA and walks. I fail to see how that is improvement. Has he developed into an ace pitcher? Not by a long shot. Has he improved? Without a doubt.

One more win in two more starts. .03 improvement in ERA. Lol. I give you that if you want.

Nasty_Boy
04-11-2012, 01:53 PM
He still makes the same mistakes he made in his rookie year. he throws too many crap pitches in key situations, and then blames everything else but himself.

Sure some of peripherals have improved, but they have produced the same results, year after year. If he produces better results this year, I will admit he has improved. So far this spring, he has not.

Crap pitches in key situations? Honestly?

Blame placement? Besides this last article, I don't remember other times... Also, how many young players have ever said the "incorrect" thing to the media?

Have they produced the same results?

Judging by most of the numbers, even ERA and W/L record, Homer has improved on a yearly basis. He was the 3rd best starter on this team last season, and he was very solid down the stretch in 2010.

This spring.... I'll give you that. One start where 4/5 of the starting staff struggled, and a spring that was not very favorable to many on the Reds staff. 17 spring innings and 5 2/3 innings in one start.

He may be terrible the rest of the way... He may never become a constant in a big league rotation... But there are still reasons to not give up on a 25 year old who has shown improvement, just because he isn't a stud yet and because of a meaningless comment to the media.

757690
04-11-2012, 01:57 PM
Question, how has Bailey managed to do that? How has he managed to improve his peripherals without getting better results? Is he getting worse at something that's not showing up in the standard stats?

I understand the basic nature of the critique. At the end of the day, the results are what matters. I just want to understand what people think is going on.

Because if he's always had problems with bad pitches and blaming others, then he still should be improving against that baseline -- unless something is offsetting the gains we're seeing elsewhere.

Or maybe walks aren't as predictive of actual results as we think. If he had improved the same way in Homers and K's, i can see your point.

wolfboy
04-11-2012, 02:02 PM
One more win in two more starts. .03 improvement in ERA. Lol. I give you that if you want.

You can "lol" me all you want, but you're the one making statements with no factual basis, not me.

757690
04-11-2012, 02:08 PM
You can "lol" me all you want, but you're the one making statements with no factual basis, not me.

I don't consider going from 8-5 in 20 starts to 9-7 in 22 starts, or going from an 4.46 ERA to a 4.43 ERA improving.

If my blood pressure went from 122/91 to 120/91 from one doctor's visit to the next, did it improve? Am I actually healthier?

REDREAD
04-11-2012, 02:13 PM
The difference in Bailey and Leake's outing was 1 pitch... Bailey gave up a HR to Molina, while Scotty Rolen bailed Leake out with a great play to turn two.

There was not much difference between the two outings. I give Leake credit for pitching around a leadoff double and doing a good job of keeping the team in the game... On the same token, Homer did the exact same thing. He battled back after a rough frame and gave the team quality innings. IMO, the difference is the name on the back and the perception that comes with that name.

We can not draw conclusions on who is the better pitcher based on one game. Leake gave up one less run.
The object of the game is to give up as few runs as possible and score as many as possible.
I think that is sometimes forgotten.

Over the course of the season, the "luck" pretty much evens out.

I will disagree with you on one point though. Leake's sinker allows him a better chance of incuding double plays than Homer does.
When Homer gets in a jam, he's forced to go for the glorious K, which he can't always execute.

Leake has less raw stuff, but he has solid command of 4 pitches.
At this stage, Leake is the better pitcher (not talking about just this year, I am talking about since Leake arrived, he's been better than Homer).

Metrics that favor Ks are going to say Homer is better or comparable, but the results speak for themselves. Their job is to prevent runs from scoring. Leake is better at that at this moment. Maybe Homer eventually gets better, maybe not.

RedsManRick
04-11-2012, 02:17 PM
Or maybe walks aren't as predictive of actual results as we think. If he had improved the same way in Homers and K's, i can see your point.

How predictive do you think they "we think" the are? Sure, they're only part of the equation. But that still doesn't explain why his ERA was so much higher than his FIP the last two years (which includes both Ks and HRs). Something else is happening outside of his BB, K and HR rates.

There are two things at play here:

1.) Why has his ERA been consistently higher than his FIP and do we have reason to believe that's sustainable (especially when we know the Reds have a very good defense)?

This is a question about what FIP is missing. We know the answer is some combination of three things:
- FIP doesn't account for his BABIP. Homer's BABIP has been more-or-less normal -- maybe a tad high when you consider the Reds defense.
- FIP doesn't account for sequence. If a guy gives up hits/walks in bunches, it's generally going to lead to more runs than if he spreads them out
- FIP doesn't account for reliever performance. If a guy is getting pulled mid-inning and the relievers are letting those runs score, Homer is getting full credit for runs that are only partially his fault.

Given his BABIP, we can basically say with a good amount of certainty that it's a combination of the 2nd and 3rd bullets. And I think it's fair to say those are related. A guy who gives up hits/walks in bunches is more likely to get pulled mid-inning with men on base, which leads to more runs being credited to him without him actually giving up any more hits/walks. So the question then becomes, to what degree is giving up hits/walks in bunches an intrinsic "skill" that Homer has vs. mere bad luck? Clearly there is a contingent here who thinks its a skill.

2.) Why has his ERA stayed the same despite his FIP improving? This suggests that whatever FIP is missing, Homer must be getting worse at because it's apparently offsetting his gains in his peripherals.

This is what I have yet to hear anybody speak to. I can buy that Homer is simply prone to big innings due to makeup or whatever. But even if he is, if that skill is constant, his ERA should still improve when his peripherals do -- even though the ERA will remain higher than his FIP. So what gives? Why didn't the above effect show up in 2009? Why was it so big in 2010? And why did it regress in 2011? To me, this is a pretty big signal that what were seeing is a combination of unclutchiness and bad luck, with emphasis on the latter.

REDREAD
04-11-2012, 02:17 PM
If it had to do with performance then Latos, Leake, and Arroyo would all be called into question. .

The majority of the board wanted to trade Leake right after his rookie season was over because his "value peaked" and they thought he was the worst of the young pitchers we had. Only towards the end of last season did Leake start getting some respect around here.

No one is making excuses for Arroyo. He gets criticized as much (if not more) than Homer. Yes, someone commented that they wished Dusty pulled Arroyo earlier, but that's not exactly making excuses..

I guess I just disagree that Leake and Arroyo are somehow the golden children around here.

Latos is the new toy this year. Naturally he's going to get some leeway at the beginning. His first start was poor. I agree with you on that.

Nasty_Boy
04-11-2012, 02:55 PM
The majority of the board wanted to trade Leake right after his rookie season was over because his "value peaked" and they thought he was the worst of the young pitchers we had. Only towards the end of last season did Leake start getting some respect around here.

No one is making excuses for Arroyo. He gets criticized as much (if not more) than Homer. Yes, someone commented that they wished Dusty pulled Arroyo earlier, but that's not exactly making excuses..

I guess I just disagree that Leake and Arroyo are somehow the golden children around here.

Latos is the new toy this year. Naturally he's going to get some leeway at the beginning. His first start was poor. I agree with you on that.

I can agree with this... I just feel that everyone is piling on Homer. Many people have based their opinion on the past and what they expect of Homer going forward. But much of what I've been reading is people pointing their finger at spring training and Monday's start as "I told you so" moments. I just can't on board with his spring performance or a bad 1st inning as a reason that Homer Bailey isn't one of the Reds 5 best starting pitchers.

REDREAD
04-11-2012, 05:59 PM
I can agree with this... I just feel that everyone is piling on Homer. Many people have based their opinion on the past and what they expect of Homer going forward. But much of what I've been reading is people pointing their finger at spring training and Monday's start as "I told you so" moments. I just can't on board with his spring performance or a bad 1st inning as a reason that Homer Bailey isn't one of the Reds 5 best starting pitchers.

That's a fair point as well.. The board has been hard on Homer over the offseason and after his first start.
I admit to getting mad when I heard his first inning, but then I calmed down.
I think it was just a bit of negative emotion rush.
There's still hope for Homer.. I like Leake better, but have not given up on Homer.

traderumor
04-11-2012, 06:44 PM
Question, how has Bailey managed to do that? How has he managed to improve his peripherals without getting better results? Is he getting worse at something that's not showing up in the standard stats?

I understand the basic nature of the critique. At the end of the day, the results are what matters. I just want to understand what people think is going on.

Because if he's always had problems with bad pitches and blaming others, then he still should be improving against that baseline -- unless something is offsetting the gains we're seeing elsewhere.The problem with Homer is that he gives up 4.5 runs per game over the course of his career. Maybe where I am missing the boat in this whole discussion is that I want good starters, as compared with all MLB starters, in the rotation, not just debate who's less sucky in the Reds rotation than the other. We have three marginal starters out of a rotation of 5 right now. I'd like to see an upgrade from any of them. If it isn't their performance providing the upgrade, then make some moves.

Again, some of this can be resolved when Massett gets back and Chapman is phased into the rotation. If that doesn't resolve an iffy rotation, it might take a move outside the org.

kaldaniels
04-11-2012, 06:49 PM
The problem with Homer is that he gives up 4.5 runs per game over the course of his career. Maybe where I am missing the boat in this whole discussion is that I want good starters, as compared with all MLB starters, in the rotation, not just debate who's less sucky in the Reds rotation than the other. We have three marginal starters out of a rotation of 5 right now. I'd like to see an upgrade from any of them. If it isn't their performance providing the upgrade, then make some moves.

Again, some of this can be resolved when Massett gets back and Chapman is phased into the rotation. If that doesn't resolve an iffy rotation, it might take a move outside the org.

Marginal seems an odd way to describe Latos and Cueto. Of course there is huge room for improvement but I wouldnt sell those 2 short.

wolfboy
04-11-2012, 07:21 PM
TWe have three marginal starters out of a rotation of 5 right now.

A lot of teams do.

westofyou
04-11-2012, 07:28 PM
A lot of teams do.

And they usually watch games in October, not play.

Aspire for more pitching should be this franchises mantra historically they have layed a giant egg in that department

Vottomatic
04-11-2012, 07:44 PM
While I'm more of a Latos fan, I consider the analysis of the quotes a reach by the thread starter.

I didn't see anything wrong with what either of them said.

wolfboy
04-11-2012, 09:08 PM
And they usually watch games in October, not play.

I disagree. Here's why:

Exhibit A: The 2011 World Champion St. Louis Cardinals, who handed out about half of their starts to Lohse, Westbrook and McLellan.

Exhibit B: The 2010 World Champion San Francisco Giants, who handed almost half of their starts during the season to Barry Zito, Jonathan Sanchez, and Todd Wellemeyer.

Exhibit C: The 2009 World Champion New York Yankees, who handed gave well north of a 100 starts to Burnett, Pettite, Chamberlain, and a handful of guys no one remembers.

Exhibit D: The 2008 World Champion Phillies, who gave nearly 100 starts to Brett Myers, Kyle Kendrick, Adam Eaton and Joe Blanton.

I could go on and on and on and on. The point is: most teams have league average or less than league average guys filling out the back end of their rotation - even the good teams.

If guys like Homer Bailey and Mike Leake are filling out the back end of the Reds rotation, I'm not really worried. They needed a guy (maybe more) to anchor the front end. They did that with Latos. Hopefully that pans out.

traderumor
04-11-2012, 09:57 PM
Marginal seems an odd way to describe Latos and Cueto. Of course there is huge room for improvement but I wouldnt sell those 2 short.I'm not sure if this is sarcasm or a misread of my post, but the marginal rotation members i was referring to are Bailey, Leake, and Arroyo.

kaldaniels
04-11-2012, 09:59 PM
I'm not sure if this is sarcasm or a misread of my post, but the marginal rotation members i was referring to are Bailey, Leake, and Arroyo.

Ahh misread I see. I'm a big fan of the guy but marginal starter is being kind to Bronson. :D

Spitball
04-11-2012, 10:03 PM
While I'm more of a Latos fan, I consider the analysis of the quotes a reach by the thread starter.

I didn't see anything wrong with what either of them said.

Right. It is unfair to judge quotes. All players/people try to say what they think will come across as appropriate. For whatever reason, way too often they fail. There are no smiley faces attached to quotes in the newspaper.

traderumor
04-11-2012, 10:20 PM
I disagree. Here's why:

Exhibit A: The 2011 World Champion St. Louis Cardinals, who handed out about half of their starts to Lohse, Westbrook and McLellan.Lohse was arguably the Cards best starter last year. Because they needed help in the rotation, they traded a chip for Edwin Jackson, just looking for an upgrade because it was so important. They had Wainwright injured and had planned on him being in the rotation.


Exhibit B: The 2010 World Champion San Francisco Giants, who handed almost half of their starts during the season to Barry Zito, Jonathan Sanchez, and Todd Wellemeyer.Sanchez was a well above average starter in 2010. So you have Cain, Lincecum, and Sanchez providing above average rotation work in 2010.


Exhibit C: The 2009 World Champion New York Yankees, who handed gave well north of a 100 starts to Burnett, Pettite, Chamberlain, and a handful of guys no one remembers.Burnett and Pettite were above league average starters, Chamberlain's numbers was just a tick below average


Exhibit D: The 2008 World Champion Phillies, who gave nearly 100 starts to Brett Myers, Kyle Kendrick, Adam Eaton and Joe Blanton.

I could go on and on and on and on. The point is: most teams have league average or less than league average guys filling out the back end of their rotation - even the good teams.

If guys like Homer Bailey and Mike Leake are filling out the back end of the Reds rotation, I'm not really worried. They needed a guy (maybe more) to anchor the front end. They did that with Latos. Hopefully that pans out.Need I go on? Did you think no one would bother to check it out?

Why are contenders consistently overpaying at the trade deadline for even incremental rotation upgrades if having 3-4 above average to average starters taking the ball every 5th day in unnecessary?

traderumor
04-11-2012, 10:25 PM
Ahh misread I see. I'm a big fan of the guy but marginal starter is being kind to Bronson. :DWell, he also only has "one bad inning," so I guess as long as he pitches good the rest of the time, we shouldn't be too hard.

wolfboy
04-11-2012, 10:38 PM
Need I go on? Did you think no one would bother to check it out?

I don't know what you're trying to accuse me of, but you can check all you want. They're all roughly league average starters. Deal with it.

traderumor
04-11-2012, 11:00 PM
I don't know what you're trying to accuse me of, but you can check all you want. They're all roughly league average starters. Deal with it.Your examples were not factual. I'm just curious how you came to the conclusions you did when I simply look at the years the named pitchers had and it didn't fit the point you were trying to make.

Further, they are not "all roughly league average starters." Some simple research reveals that.

Dan
04-12-2012, 10:19 AM
You know, I think the only thing that's going to ever be agreed upon when it comes to Homer Bailey is that he's probably the biggest enigma of a ballplayer to land in Cincinnati since Kal Daniels.

dougdirt
04-12-2012, 05:10 PM
You know, I think the only thing that's going to ever be agreed upon when it comes to Homer Bailey is that he's probably the biggest enigma of a ballplayer to land in Cincinnati since Kal Daniels.

Homer Bailey isn't even on par with Adam Dunn.

reds44
04-12-2012, 06:59 PM
Adam Dunn produced a lot more than Homer Bailey has. It's really not even comparable.

Vottomatic
04-12-2012, 07:11 PM
I'm sure Latos is lovin' comin' to the Reds right now and that bullpen with filthy, nasty stuff, including wild pitches.

traderumor
04-12-2012, 07:31 PM
I'm sure Latos is lovin' comin' to the Reds right now and that bullpen with filthy, nasty stuff, including wild pitches.I'm sure he expects more of himself than using 99 pitches in 5 innings and requiring the bullpen to cover 4 innings. I'd say he would expect to go at least 7 and not require the back end of the bullpen to bail him out two games running.

Or at least that should be what he's thinking.

Razor Shines
04-12-2012, 09:14 PM
Alright well, let's get to the only important part of baseball, the post game comments. I found Latos' comments today very interesting, a signal perhaps?

“I thought I threw the ball well,” he said. “They took some borderline pitchers. I thought some calls could have gone the other way. There’s no excuses. The walks hurt me. A couple of long at-bats hurt me.”

http://cincinnati.com/blogs/reds/2012/04/12/latos-short-outing-hurt/
So, who are the borderline "pitchers" they took? Who's they? The government, they are in DC. Do we even want our borderline pitchers back? Why is Latos selling his teammates so short?

I think that speaks volumes to the type of person and more importantly the type of pitcher Latos is....seriously blaming some conspiracy for his poor performance? Gross.

brad1176
04-12-2012, 09:34 PM
Alright well, let's get to the only important part of baseball, the post game comments. I found Latos' comments today very interesting, a signal perhaps?


http://cincinnati.com/blogs/reds/2012/04/12/latos-short-outing-hurt/
So, who are the borderline "pitchers" they took? Who's they? The government, they are in DC. Do we even want our borderline pitchers back? Why is Latos selling his teammates so short?

I think that speaks volumes to the type of person and more importantly the type of pitcher Latos is....seriously blaming some conspiracy for his poor performance? Gross.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that was a typo by Fay.

As far as today's game, Latos and the boys were a victim of Opening Day on the road. They (the home team) get pitches that normally don't go for strikes and we get squeezed a bit. Let's not fool ourselves, Cueto got a bit of a wide strikezone on our Opening Day.

Razor Shines
04-12-2012, 09:37 PM
I'm going to go out on a limb and say that was a typo by Fay.

.
I don't understand the sentence above.

Joseph
04-12-2012, 09:37 PM
I'm going to go out on a limb and say that was a typo by Fay.

As far as today's game, Latos and the boys were a victim of Opening Day on the road. They (the home team) get pitches that normally don't go for strikes and we get squeezed a bit. Let's not fool ourselves, Cueto got a bit of a wide strikezone on our Opening Day.

Wasn't our OD umpire notorious for being 'generous'?

traderumor
04-12-2012, 09:44 PM
Alright well, let's get to the only important part of baseball, the post game comments. I found Latos' comments today very interesting, a signal perhaps?


http://cincinnati.com/blogs/reds/2012/04/12/latos-short-outing-hurt/
So, who are the borderline "pitchers" they took? Who's they? The government, they are in DC. Do we even want our borderline pitchers back? Why is Latos selling his teammates so short?

I think that speaks volumes to the type of person and more importantly the type of pitcher Latos is....seriously blaming some conspiracy for his poor performance? Gross.Its pretty clear from the context it should read "borderline pitches." The hitters took close pitches.

brad1176
04-12-2012, 09:46 PM
I don't understand the sentence above.

When Fay quoted Latos as saying 'They took some borderline pitchers'. Fay typed 'pitchers' instead of 'pitches' in the article. I'd say it was a typo.

Razor Shines
04-12-2012, 09:48 PM
When Fay quoted Latos as saying 'They took some borderline pitchers'. Fay typed 'pitchers' instead of 'pitches' in the article. I'd say it was a typo.

That doesn't make any sense.

brad1176
04-12-2012, 09:51 PM
That doesn't make any sense.

Seriously?

Captain Hook
04-12-2012, 09:51 PM
I don't understand the sentence above.


That doesn't make any sense.

:laugh:

Razor Shines
04-12-2012, 09:53 PM
Its pretty clear from the context it should read "borderline pitches." The hitters took close pitches.

Where do you get that? You're saying it's easier to believe that Latos was saying the Nationals hitters took close pitches than that he believes some massive conspiracy in which some of the Reds' pitchers were kidnapped caused him to pitch poorly? I don't know about that.

dougdirt
04-12-2012, 09:54 PM
Adam Dunn produced a lot more than Homer Bailey has. It's really not even comparable.


Yet he was an incredible enigma among fans, much more so than Bailey.

mattfeet
04-12-2012, 09:55 PM
When Fay quoted Latos as saying 'They took some borderline pitchers'. Fay typed 'pitchers' instead of 'pitches' in the article. I'd say it was a typo.

Im going out on a limb here, but Im pretty certain Razor is being facetious.

-Matt

nate
04-12-2012, 09:56 PM
Where do you get that? You're saying it's easier to believe that Latos was saying the Nationals hitters took close pitches than that he believes some massive conspiracy in which some of the Reds' pitchers were kidnapped caused him to pitch poorly? I don't know about that.

:cool:

Redhook
04-13-2012, 08:49 AM
Where do you get that? You're saying it's easier to believe that Latos was saying the Nationals hitters took close pitches than that he believes some massive conspiracy in which some of the Reds' pitchers were kidnapped caused him to pitch poorly? I don't know about that.

:lol:

traderumor
04-13-2012, 12:09 PM
Im going out on a limb here, but Im pretty certain Razor is being facetious.

-MattSince I couldn't hear his sarcastic tone of voice, maybe he should try emoticons to explain sarcasm. That's a pretty easy norm to aid in communication via typing.

Razor Shines
04-13-2012, 04:10 PM
Since I couldn't hear his sarcastic tone of voice, maybe he should try emoticons to explain sarcasm. That's a pretty easy norm to aid in communication via typing.

Dude. I thought I was going far enough over the top not to be taken seriously. I was talking about Reds players being kidnapped for gosh sakes. I was just havin a little fun.

The point I was subtlety trying to make was that I learned as much about Latos from his mis quoted post game comments as I did about either Bailey or Latos from their comments in the first post of this thread.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Redhook
04-13-2012, 09:09 PM
Dude. I thought I was going far enough over the top not to be taken seriously. I was talking about Reds players being kidnapped for gosh sakes. I was just havin a little fun.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I loved it. For a good laugh, I went back and re-read your replies in this thread. Hilarious.



Sent from my Toshiba laptop while sitting on my couch drinking a Bud Light and watching Man vs. Food on DVR through Time Warner Cable

westofyou
04-13-2012, 10:44 PM
Dude. I thought I was going far enough over the top not to be taken seriously. I was talking about Reds players being kidnapped for gosh sakes. I was just havin a little fun.

The point I was subtlety trying to make was that I learned as much about Latos from his mis quoted post game comments as I did about either Bailey or Latos from their comments in the first post of this thread.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I have been on this site for a long time... I recognize sarcasm and the attempt to use humor, it used to be a regular visitor here... what you typed was pretty darn classic IMO.

Carry on

traderumor
04-14-2012, 12:39 AM
I have been on this site for a long time... I recognize sarcasm and the attempt to use humor, it used to be a regular visitor here... what you typed was pretty darn classic IMO.

Carry on
I must be getting jaded from all the criticism and can't recognize sarcasm anymore :(

Razor Shines
04-14-2012, 01:30 AM
Sent from my Toshiba laptop while sitting on my couch drinking a Bud Light and watching Man vs. Food on DVR through Time Warner Cable
Lol. I usually stop reading as soon as I see "sent from" but I caught "Toshiba laptop" was like why the hell....nice.

I keep my iPhone tag on there so I have a built in excuse if I make any mistakes.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

westofyou
04-14-2012, 12:54 PM
I must be getting jaded from all the criticism and can't recognize sarcasm anymore :(

It's still there... we just need to see through the vitriol that seemingly follows each subject like a dog