PDA

View Full Version : Frazier > Cairo



Blitz Dorsey
04-11-2012, 01:34 PM
The front office is obviously being aggressive and trying to win. So, eating the $1 million owed to Cairo this season should be no biggie. Todd Frazier should NOT be in Triple-A right now. Especially with a starting third baseman like Rolen that needs a day off every third game, the Reds need a good backup 3B. It should be Frazier, not Cairo. It shouldn't even be a legit debate IMO.

To be clear, Miguel Cairo is a solid ballplayer. But Frazier is better. That's what this is about. Do we want Cairo starting every third game, or Frazier? Exactly.

camisadelgolf
04-11-2012, 01:39 PM
As a Red, Cairo has an OPS+ of 100. On top of that, he can play all the positions that Todd Frazier can. Frazier, however, has struggled mightily so far for Louisville. If I'm getting rid of someone to call up Frazier, it would be Willie Harris. Seeing as how BP is banged up, I don't see it happening right now.

Blitz Dorsey
04-11-2012, 01:42 PM
As a Red, Cairo has an OPS+ of 100. On top of that, he can play all the positions that Todd Frazier can. Frazier, however, has struggled mightily so far for Louisville. If I'm getting rid of someone to call up Frazier, it would be Willie Harris. Seeing as how BP is banged up, I don't see it happening right now.

Cairo was aided by a very-favorable BABIP during his first 2 years with the Reds. His career numbers do not reflect such high production. So, either it was an aberration, or Cairo suddenly figured things out at the age of 35.

He's now 37. Frazier is the Reds' 3B of the future, played well in AAA last year, played well with the Reds last year and played well this spring. I'm not worried about his first 2-3 games at Louisville, especially after his heart was ripped out of his chest after he thought he had made the Opening Day roster.

2012 Frazier > 2012 Cairo. I have no doubt about that. We'll check back in a few months to see where things stand.

camisadelgolf
04-11-2012, 01:48 PM
Cairo was aided by a very-favorable BABIP during his first 2 years with the Reds. His career numbers do not reflect such high production. So, either it was an aberration, or Cairo suddenly figured things out at the age of 35.

He's now 37. Frazier is the Reds' 3B of the future, played well in AAA last year, played well with the Reds last year and played well this spring. I'm not worried about his first 2-3 games at Louisville, especially after his heart was ripped out of his chest after he thought he had made the Opening Day roster.

2012 Frazier > 2012 Cairo. I have no doubt about that. We'll check back in a few months to see where things stand.
Personally, I don't have any faith in Cairo continuing to produce on the field. I don't care one way or the other whether he's released or not, but I feel like it's relevant to note that he's a bench player who is most known for his intangibles (leadership, figuring out when pitchers are tipping their pitches, etc.).

Let me ask you this: 2012 Cairo > 2012 Harris?

cumberlandreds
04-11-2012, 02:00 PM
Frazier>Cairo>Harris That's the food chain IMO

Blitz Dorsey
04-11-2012, 02:27 PM
Harris is going to stick simply because he's the only left-handed bat on the bench.

But yes, I agree that overall, Cairo > Harris.

BuckeyeRedleg
04-11-2012, 02:56 PM
I'm not sure what, if anything, Willie Harris offers.

It seems every year we have one of these guys.

Blitz Dorsey
04-11-2012, 02:58 PM
I'm not sure what, if anything, Willie Harris offers.

It seems every year we have one of these guys.

He's a left-handed stick that can play multiple positions. That's about it. He's VERY fortunate the Reds have such a lack of left-handed batters (Votto, Bruce and that's it, other than WH).

I have no doubt Walt will deal for a serviceable left-handed bat if the Reds are still in the race come late June or anytime during July.

I(heart)Freel
04-11-2012, 05:26 PM
At some point, being left handed ain't enough. It seems foolish for the organization to roster someone just for his lefthandedness. If Frazier hits righties better than Willie, then I don't care if Willie has two left hands!

Kc61
04-11-2012, 05:45 PM
Todd Frazier hit .195 with a .654 OPS against righties in the majors last year. (He was effective against LHP.)

He may have a role on the Reds, but he is not the guy to come off the bench to hit right handed pitching in a key spot.

Cairo has been a real good backup player for a long time and I wouldn't give him up just because of a slow start. Frankly, both he and Rolen have me a little worried right now, but they have a track record, they deserve some time.

The Harris role - lefty hitter off the bench -- should be improved IMO. That new lefty bat will have to come from outside the organization. It's not the role for Frazier, and I don't see another candidate now that Alonso and Francisco are both traded. And it is ridiculous IMO to have zero lefty hitters on the bench, the Reds will need somebody if not Harris.

Kc61
04-11-2012, 05:53 PM
He's a left-handed stick that can play multiple positions. That's about it. He's VERY fortunate the Reds have such a lack of left-handed batters (Votto, Bruce and that's it, other than WH).

I have no doubt Walt will deal for a serviceable left-handed bat if the Reds are still in the race come late June or anytime during July.

Blitz, I don't see why Walt has to wait until late June to get a lefty bat for the bench. We're not talking about the CC Sabathia deadline acquisition here. We're talking, maybe, Laynce Nix or somebody else who can hit righties reasonably well.

I think the Reds need a number of additional lefty hitters eventually. I don't like the current lefty/righty mix.

But to get a bench guy to unseat Harris shouldn't be a big deal. Walt should address that pretty quickly IMO.

IslandRed
04-11-2012, 07:54 PM
I agree. The bench mix is definitely too right-handed, but when looking at them not just as pinch-hitters but potential injury replacements, I don't think we're going to find scrap-heap guys better than what we have -- except for Harris. Left-handed pinch-hitter is nearly an everyday job in the NL, and since the other bench guys can cover all the positions, that's pretty much all Harris will do. When or if Jocketty can scrounge a better lefty hitter, he likely will.

Ghosts of 1990
04-11-2012, 09:53 PM
I'll keep Cairo in his super-sub role. But how about Frazier > Rolen? Won't happen, but I am convinced Rolen is toast. Such a shell of his former self.

_Sir_Charles_
04-12-2012, 10:26 AM
A lefty bat for the bench. Danny Dorn?

He's somebody who's ripped up righties, and he's not such a valuable minor leaguer that I mind putting him to sleep a bit on the bench. He's GOT to be better than Harris.

RedsManRick
04-12-2012, 11:12 AM
I like Todd Frazier, but the backup QB is always the most popular player. Cairo has been a very solid bench guy in his time with the Reds, putting up 2.9 WAR over 500 PA. Hard to find fault with that. I want Frazier on this team, but I'm not sure replacing Cairo with him makes us any better.

cumberlandreds
04-12-2012, 11:28 AM
A lefty bat for the bench. Danny Dorn?

He's somebody who's ripped up righties, and he's not such a valuable minor leaguer that I mind putting him to sleep a bit on the bench. He's GOT to be better than Harris.

You know I thought about him last night. I don't know why the Reds have never given this guy a shot in the big leagues. People have asked on the minors forum but never a really a good reason given. From what I take is that he hits righty's great but is abysmal against lefty's. Sounds like a good PH to me or a perfect platoon matchup in LF. I'm guessing there is some character flaw with him but otherwise I don't see any reason they can't give him shot. You never know what might happen.

TheNext44
04-12-2012, 01:04 PM
A lefty bat for the bench. Danny Dorn?

He's somebody who's ripped up righties, and he's not such a valuable minor leaguer that I mind putting him to sleep a bit on the bench. He's GOT to be better than Harris.

I believe the knock on Dorn is his fielding.

RedsManRick
04-12-2012, 01:18 PM
I believe the knock on Dorn is his fielding.

That was my understanding too -- platoon DH's have trouble getting jobs in the NL.

_Sir_Charles_
04-12-2012, 07:58 PM
I believe the knock on Dorn is his fielding.

This is from a 2011 prospect write up on dorn and concerning his defense it says this....


On the defensive side, Dorn split time between first base (30 games), leftfield (10 games), and rightfield (23 games). It could have happened out of necessity, but it was also likely an effort to increase his value through increased flexibility on defense. The more things he can do for the team, the more likely he'll win a spot on the bench at the MLB level.

Over the course of his minor league career, Dorn has been 10 runs above average in 225 games in leftfield under the Total Zone Fielding Runs Above Average (Rtz) metric. While there remains a degree of imprecision in fielding metrics, it seems likely that Dorn will at the very least avoid being a significant defensive liability and could ultimately be around league average. He may never be an asset with the glove, but he should be able to avoid offsetting his offensive production with shoddy glove work.

Now it's only ONE write up and from a year or so ago, so take it for what it's worth. But from what I've seen of Dorn, he's average defensively. He's not great at all, but he won't kill you either. But we wouldn't be bringing him up for his defensive chops...so I'm not sure how much that should even factor into it regardless. Against right handers, he can hit. Period.

_Sir_Charles_
04-12-2012, 08:06 PM
I found another one concerning Dorn's defense.


In leftfield, Dorn is average at best, but he has added some versatility with increased playing time at first base. As of now, he can be competent at either spot. His arm strength is average at best. He throws from a high three-quarter arm slot, which results in his throws tailing off to his arm side and works to rob his throws of carry. However, his arm would certainly pose no problem at either first base or leftfield.

Dorn's foot speed is a notch below average and he lacks first step quickness, which means he isn't much of a threat on the bases and lacks range in the field.

Both match up pretty well with what I've seen personally. Not close to bad enough to be a concern IMO.

Blitz Dorsey
04-13-2012, 03:11 PM
Interesting on Dorn. If Harris continues to falter, might as well give Dorn a shot. He a left-handed stick with pop. Couldn't hurt to give him a chance. Then if that doesn't work, go out and trade for a backup left-handed stick. (Shouldn't be too hard to find once bad teams start falling out of the race. We're not talking about landing a good starting pitcher or something. We're talking about dealing for a left-handed bat off the bench. Walt will get it done.)

GAC
04-17-2012, 05:06 AM
The front office is obviously being aggressive and trying to win. So, eating the $1 million owed to Cairo this season should be no biggie. Todd Frazier should NOT be in Triple-A right now. Especially with a starting third baseman like Rolen that needs a day off every third game, the Reds need a good backup 3B. It should be Frazier, not Cairo. It shouldn't even be a legit debate IMO.

The only problem I have, and this article illustrates that, is that while Frazier plays all the INF positions, he has the least experience at 3B.

http://www.milb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20120415&content_id=28792408&fext=.jsp&vkey=news_milb


Bell said Frazier is a versatile player, but he began the season as Louisville's everyday third baseman. Because Frazier has less experience at third than at other positions -- he's played all four infield positions as well as left field since the Reds chose him as a supplemental first-round pick in the 2007 Draft -- the plan is for Frazier to play third for the Bats most days to become more comfortable at that position.

"It's good knowing that they want me to play one position," Frazier said. "I consider myself a utility guy, but at the same time playing third base every day is pretty cool."

So Frazier said he will continue to work and wait, preparing himself for that callup to Cincinnati.

So one side of me looks at our bench - which is a huge weakness, not a strength, with guys like Harris and Valdez - and wants Frazier up here. But then the other side sees the positives of having him playing 3B every day at Louisville, getting the experience, as well as the ABs, and for now that may be for the best.

We all knew (Walt included) that this day would come with Rolen and the 3B position. His "absence" killed us last year. Not just at 3B, but in the #4 spot. And this organization has done very little to address that "future" IMO. We thought, for a time, it might be Francisco. That didn't work out. They traded him away, which I had no problem with; but who is that back-up? Cairo? I like the guy, but c'mon, he's a year older then Rolen. And he is also currently hurt (hamstring). Now I read the other day that the team is going to take it slow (cautiously) with Cairo. So where does that leave us? Especially with the way Baker rests Rolen. That means we're going to see even more of Harris/Valdez? I wanna puke.

So I would have no problem with this team DL'ing Cairo and calling up Frazier for now, and give him some more playing time at 3B. That is a far better alternative them what I am seeing.

Harris shouldn't even be in a Red's uniform.

mth123
04-17-2012, 06:42 AM
I think Frazier is probably not going to benefit much more from playing at AAA. I think he's probably as ready as he's going to get. Lets not fool ourselves though. He's not a very good defender at 3B (worse than Francisco even), he struggles with making contact and probably won't hit for a very high average. He's got a role as a reserve power RH PH, OF/1B who can play other IF spots on occassion but probably would kill the pitching staff if he played too much or too many games in a row at the other spots. He may pass as a below average 3B, but he'd only be a stopgap IMO. Best case I can see for him is as a platoon LF who kills lefty pitching in the Jonny Gomes mold, but with decent OF defense added to the mix.

I'm not convinced he's better than Cairo, but he's probably more versatile and provides more of a game changing threat, so that helps. He'll be a decent replacement for Cairo next year when Cairo's contract is done. Replacing Rolen is another matter. Lets hope H-Rod takes to 3B.

Blitz Dorsey
04-17-2012, 09:21 AM
Well, good news: Frazier has been called up. Joining the team today in St. Louis (per Sheldon).

mbgrayson
04-17-2012, 09:25 AM
Well, good news: Frazier has been called up. Joining the team today in St. Louis (per Sheldon).

Sheldon (http://marksheldon.mlblogs.com/2012/04/17/frazier-called-up-2/) also says:


It looks like the Reds have called up infielder Todd Frazier from Triple-A Louisville for the game tonight vs. the Cardinals.
I know this because Frazier is on my flight from Cincinnati to St. Louis.
A corresponding move has not been announced … but Miguel Cairo hurt his hamstring in Saturday’s game. We will soon know for sure.

REDREAD
04-17-2012, 09:38 AM
I wonder if they are going to put Phillips on the DL, as he reinjured his hamstring in the last Wash game.
I actually hope they do.. It would be nice to force Phillips to rest his injury for 15 days.. Naturally, I hope Phillips injury is not that bad.

klw
04-17-2012, 11:08 AM
http://cincinnati.com/blogs/reds/2012/04/17/frazier-in-st-louis/


Todd Frazier was the flight to St. Louis with Mark Sheldon of mlb.com this morning. Could be Frazier’s here to see the arch, I suppose. It’s more likely he’s been called up and will replace the injured Miguel Cairo on the roster.

The Reds have not announced a roster move.

Frazier’s heated up at the plate recently. He went to 2-for-3 last night for Louisville to extend his hitting streak to five games. He’s hitting .333 with a home run and four RBI in those five games. He’s hitting .231 overall.

Blitz Dorsey
04-17-2012, 01:36 PM
It's now official. Frazier has been called-up; Cairo to the DL.

GAC
04-18-2012, 04:44 AM
It's basically a catch-22 situation. What other alternatives do they have with your back-up 3Bman now going on the DL? They had to call Frazier back up. And I wouldn't be surprised to see him alternating between 3B and 2B (with BP still not 100%).

At least that's what I'd do, but I'm not Dusty. :p