Brantley for Stubbs

[EMAW]

A nugget of good news for the Stubbs haters I picked up at the Royals and Indians game tonight. I sit in the press box, thus do get to hear real baseball gossip rather than made up stuff. Reds and Indians have discussed a deal for disappointing outfielders. Personally could see it (if it happens) being an awful deal that is being set up by a 9 game into season panic situation. Checking with a few people I know, Dusty is likely retiring (he wants to be with his son the next few years) at the conclusion of the season. I assume when this happens you will hold a message board parade and the Reds will be a lock to go 162-0 next season.

[joshua]

What player are the Indians shipping over in this deal you just made up?

[Ironman92]

Reds fans would rid their frustration with Stubbs and Dusty. We've had quite the decade plus of cruddy managers.....the curse of Ron Oester?

[TheBigLebowski]

I'd be thrilled with this. I'd take a warm Hudepohl on a frosty cold winter's day in exchange for Stubbs.

[Joesh]

But then who would we blame if the Reds still suck

[joshua]

But then who would we blame if the Reds still suck

As long as it's not Corky Miller, you can blame whoever you want. xCorkyxRulzx

[EMAW]

What player are the Indians shipping over in this deal you just made up?

The deal is Michael Brantley for Stubbs
Brantley is a baseball player for a team called the Cleveland Indians
You are obviously a baseball expert

[wvreds]

I would take a bucket of balls for Stubbs, I say do it

[KySteveH]

The deal is Michael Brantley for Stubbs
Brantley is a baseball player for a team called the Cleveland Indians
You are obviously a baseball expert
That might have been clearer had you mentioned it in the body of your post. Terrible idea, BTW. No matter how much you dislike Stubbs, flipping him for Brantley is worse.

[improbus]

Stubbs had a 2.9 WAR last year. He was ranked above the following players in that category (w/ comparable At Bats)
Johnny Damon
Ryan Howard
Billy Butler
Michael Young
Torii Hunter
Carlos Pena
Jayson Werth
Dan Uggla
and....Jay Bruce

He's frustrating, but he does do alot of things. Also, where else are we going to find 25 HR's, 40 SB's, and Gold Glove defense for $450,000?

[malcontent]

Do it yesterday, Walt.

Last year Stubbs struck out 205 times in 681 PA.

In his minor league career, Brantley has K'd 218 times in 2477 PA, with an OBP of 0.388.

In a way, he's the anti-Stubbs. A leadoff hitter who actually makes contact and gets on base. And a LHH, which the Reds absolutely need more of.

Only 24, so his best should be yet to come.

Please, Universe, let this be true.

[Ohayou]

Stubbs had a 2.9 WAR last year. He was ranked above the following players in that category (w/ comparable At Bats)
Johnny Damon
Ryan Howard
Billy Butler
Michael Young
Torii Hunter
Carlos Pena
Jayson Werth
Dan Uggla
and....Jay Bruce

He's frustrating, but he does do alot of things. Also, where else are we going to find 25 HR's, 40 SB's, and Gold Glove defense for $450,000?

WAR doesn't put anything into proper context. It's just a number, a result of a formula concocted by someone who likely never picked up a bat or put on a glove and possibly never saw a full game. The individual, raw game stats, some of which make up WAR, put things in proper context.

I agree, though, Stubbs is worth having on your team. Certainly not for the amount of at bats he's given, but he IS useful.

[malcontent]

L Brantley
R Cozart
L Votto
R Phillips
L Bruce
R Ludwick
R Rolen
R Hanigan

If Walt could trade Stubbs for Brantley, and find another good LH bat to sub for Rolen the 40% of games that he's unavailable (uh, like Francisco), we've still got a chance.

Seriously, Rolen is a platoon guy these days.

[goreds2]

No way do I trade THE COWBOY for Stubbs.

[R_Webb18]

Stubbs had a 2.9 WAR last year. He was ranked above the following players in that category (w/ comparable At Bats)
Johnny Damon
Ryan Howard
Billy Butler
Michael Young
Torii Hunter
Carlos Pena
Jayson Werth
Dan Uggla
and....Jay Bruce

He's frustrating, but he does do alot of things. Also, where else are we going to find 25 HR's, 40 SB's, and Gold Glove defense for $450,000?

wait when did drew stubbs hit 25 hr's?

[joshua]

I'd try to get more than just Michael Brantley

[Tuff Nut]

This is a no brainer..... Stubbs has regressed the past 2 years, and is showing NO sign of giving this team the Stubbs of 2010. He and Bailey need to be traded, while some team will still give us some value, for them.

[R_Webb18]

almost every stat from last year stubbs has gotten worse from 2010. :(

[joshua]

This is a no brainer..... Stubbs has regressed the past 2 years, and is showing NO sign of giving this team the Stubbs of 2010. He and Bailey need to be traded, while some team will still give us some value, for them.

I think there's still hope for Bailey. He needs a psychologist in the worst way, but if he gets fixed, he'll be insanely good. Worth at least sticking at the end of the rotation while he tries to work out the kinks.

[malcontent]

This is a no brainer..... Stubbs has regressed the past 2 years, and is showing NO sign of giving this team the Stubbs of 2010. He and Bailey need to be traded, while some team will still give us some value, for them.
I agree. Bailey is the other shoe that has to drop for the Reds to have a chance.

Trade Bailey for a LHH 3B, and bring up Francis before you lose him to another team.

After Stubbs-for-Brantley goes down, that is.

[malcontent]

Brantley 3-for-6 today.

Hope he doesn't heat up!

[swaisuc]

wait when did drew stubbs hit 25 hr's?

Never. Not even close in the minors. He came kind've close in his career year in 2010. There is no reason to believe he's ever going to hit for that kind of power again and I would be shocked if he improves on it to get to 25.

I also missed him winning a gold glove.

I also don't think he approaches 40 steals this year.

But yes, getting all of that would be great for 450K.

[jhu1321]

No way do I trade THE COWBOY for Stubbs.


I'd love to see the Cowboy in center. :laugh:

[S.Wells]

I like this would be a good trade. Brantley has 136 strikeouts in 894 AB for his career. Doesn't hit for much power. But in all honesty that might be half of Stubbs problem. A LH CF with good speed and glove to bat leadoff and a .314 OBP. Pull the trigger Walt!

Sent from my C771 using Tapatalk 2

[uteroasis]

No way do I trade THE COWBOY for Stubbs.

:laugh: I thought the same thing when I first read the thread.

There's no way the Reds would make this trade. Brantley strikes out less than Stubbs, but last year his OBP was even worse than Stubbs'. He hit 40 points higher (.266 vs. .243), but his OBP was 3 points worse (.318 vs. .321). Cleveland can keep him.

[texasdave]

Never. Not even close in the minors. He came kind've close in his career year in 2010. There is no reason to believe he's ever going to hit for that kind of power again and I would be shocked if he improves on it to get to 25.

I also missed him winning a gold glove.

I also don't think he approaches 40 steals this year.

But yes, getting all of that would be great for 450K.

I would settle for one out of three at this point.

[Ohioballplayer]

wait when did drew stubbs hit 25 hr's?

Never most he had was 22, and he seems to be getting worse every year, if you are going to keep him bat him 8th and if he does something spectacular offensively we can all applaud. Defensively he is a plus!

[improbus]

Never. Not even close in the minors. He came kind've close in his career year in 2010. There is no reason to believe he's ever going to hit for that kind of power again and I would be shocked if he improves on it to get to 25.

I also missed him winning a gold glove.

I also don't think he approaches 40 steals this year.

But yes, getting all of that would be great for 450K.

I was thinking of Stubbs as a better defender than maybe he is. His UZR in 2009 was 22.9, which is Gold Glove caliber. But he has regressed to league average the last two years (his first two full seasons).

[realistic]

ive often wondered why this board gives Stubbs so much grief. Adam Dunn struck out more often and wasnt near as good as an outfielder yet he was worshiped by Redzone because he could hit a 500 foot solo shot.

at this point, i blame the Reds for not making him a better bunter and baserunner. Stubbs should not be starting and there is no reason for him and Heisey to be back to back in the lineup when they k so much

id not do this trade. brantley is no better. id trade for prospects to a team with good instructors that think they can make him an all-star

[S.Wells]

I don't see how you guys can claim that Brantley is not better than Stubbs. Brantley does not strike out, if you put the ball in play good things will eventually happen. Stubbs average strikeouts for 162 games is 195, Brantley averages 100 even. That is 95 more chances that Brantley gets on base. Also this proves he sees the ball well and has far more room for improvement at the plate. Your speedy lead off guy is supposed to make contact and give himself a chance to get on base. Brantley can bunt unlike Stubbs and who wants to watch a guy strike out 200 times over a season. In 3 years Brantley will be a better ball play no doubt in my mind.

Sent from my C771 using Tapatalk 2

[Alpha Zero]

I don't see how you guys can claim that Brantley is not better than Stubbs. Brantley does not strike out, if you put the ball in play good things will eventually happen. Stubbs average strikeouts for 162 games is 195, Brantley averages 100 even. That is 95 more chances that Brantley gets on base. Also this proves he sees the ball well and has far more room for improvement at the plate. Your speedy lead off guy is supposed to make contact and give himself a chance to get on base. Brantley can bunt unlike Stubbs and who wants to watch a guy strike out 200 times over a season. In 3 years Brantley will be a better ball play no doubt in my mind.

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I don't like Stubbs' plate approach and I'd like an upgrade in CF, but Brantley is probably a lateral move or worse. Stubbs is a career .249/.322/.400 hitter and Brantley is a .263/.315/.359 hitter.

Stubbs is a better base stealer, has more power, and gets on base more than Brantley. Brantley is a bit younger and doesn't strike out as much, but that's about it.

I get very frustrated by the ridiculous number of K's that Stubbs racks up, but I don't let that blind me to every other aspect of a guy's game.

[malcontent]

Please note the 91% contact rate.

I wonder what contact rate Stubbs has.

Not much power, so not considered an uber-prospect.

But power is not what we need at lead-off, of course.

http://fantasybaseball365.com/2010-articles/january/hot-prospect-corner-michael-brantley.html

[swaisuc]

Normally I'm on the side that hates high-strikeout batters, but you guys are taking it too far. We now have 2 threads talking about trading for a guy just because he makes contact when he gets out. Brantley is not a productive hitter. It's that simple.

[texasdave]

Yes. I would pass on this trade offer.

[fielder's choice]

Stubbs had a 2.9 WAR last year. He was ranked above the following players in that category (w/ comparable At Bats)
Johnny Damon
Ryan Howard
Billy Butler
Michael Young
Torii Hunter
Carlos Pena
Jayson Werth
Dan Uggla
and....Jay Bruce

He's frustrating, but he does do alot of things. Also, where else are we going to find 25 HR's, 40 SB's, and Gold Glove defense for $450,000?

Stubbs is far from a gold glover.

[Falcon7]

wait when did drew stubbs hit 25 hr's?

He plays softball in the off season?

From 7-1-2011 to season end, he hit 4 hr's in 274 AB's. And how many this year? 0 Hr's and 0 2B's and 1 RBI.

[malcontent]

Normally I'm on the side that hates high-strikeout batters, but you guys are taking it too far. We now have 2 threads talking about trading for a guy just because he makes contact when he gets out. Brantley is not a productive hitter. It's that simple.
0.388 OBP in the minors and still only 24.

Far, far better option at lead-off than Stubbs. And a LHH.

High-percentage base stealer. Good defensive OF.

Lets Phillips drop to cleanup, which provides some protection for Votto.

[malcontent]

The one seemingly plus offensive stat that I've noticed with Stubbs is the number of runs scored.

91 and 92 the last two years.

But it took him 1264 PA to do it, and he was leading off most of those.

I'd also be curious to know how many of those runs occurred after he forced another runner.

[texasdave]

I think once Drew Stubbs gets on he is pretty proficient at making it around the bases. Which would certainly lead one to believe that him getting on base more often would be a very good thing. He doesn't agree. Too bad for us.

[malcontent]

From the WFNY site which all Browns fans should be familiar with...

http://www.waitingfornextyear.com/2010/10/wherein-a-dubious-comparison-is-made-to-support-a-facile-argument/#more-35595

[Jamz]

0.388 OBP in the minors and still only 24.

Far, far better option at lead-off than Stubbs. And a LHH.

High-percentage base stealer. Good defensive OF.

Lets Phillips drop to cleanup, which provides some protection for Votto.

The line-up the way it is right now is fine. Cozart - Stubbs - Votto - Phillips is actually pretty good until next year when we should have Hamilton leading off.

Trading Stubbs now is pointless. We're not going to get value for him, and he's got all-star caliber tools. 27 - 28 is an age that many other Major Leaguers have figured it out and Stubbs still has that chance. I think with him batting in front of Votto they are going to pitch to him and if he has a little bit of patience he could continue what he's been doing the last few games -- and that's getting on base, and home.

Also in no way is trading Stubbs for Brantley an upgrade. Not a bit.

[malcontent]

The line-up the way it is right now is fine. Cozart - Stubbs - Votto - Phillips is actually pretty good until next year when we should have Hamilton leading off.

Trading Stubbs now is pointless. We're not going to get value for him, and he's got all-star caliber tools. 27 - 28 is an age that many other Major Leaguers have figured it out and Stubbs still has that chance. I think with him batting in front of Votto they are going to pitch to him and if he has a little bit of patience he could continue what he's been doing the last few games -- and that's getting on base, and home.

Also in no way is trading Stubbs for Brantley an upgrade. Not a bit.
Unfortunately, patience for Stubbs has meant taking the first two strikes and either taking or swinging at the third.

I just don't see Stubbs changing his approach at all, and even though he does have tools I think the Reds need to bail on him now. His attitude when interviewed has been that he really doesn't need to change. How any fan can sit through another year of 200+ strikeouts, many on called third strikes, is beyond me.

As for Stubbs in front of Votto, I imagine that that could really help a lot of hitters. I don't think Stubbs is one of those guys. I want guys with decent OBP in front of Votto, not a windmill.

I also disagree on Brantley's potential, of course.

:)

[swaisuc]

The one seemingly plus offensive stat that I've noticed with Stubbs is the number of runs scored.

91 and 92 the last two years.

But it took him 1264 PA to do it, and he was leading off most of those.

I'd also be curious to know how many of those runs occurred after he forced another runner.

Probably way less than most. He doesn't make enough contact to force people out often and when he does, his GB rate is pretty average.

I would say your other points are dead on though. His runs are largely a product of PA's and leading off and hitting in front of Votto.

His baserunning is an asset though, no question. There is also something to be said for keeping yourself healthy and available to have 1264 AB's.

[texasdave]

Once Drew Stubbs gets on he is pretty proficient at finding his way to home.

[DirtyBaker]

Make the trade. WAR is useful, but has its limits. I'd take any of those players over Stubbs any day.

[Jamz]

As for Stubbs in front of Votto, I imagine that that could really help a lot of hitters. I don't think Stubbs is one of those guys. I want guys with decent OBP in front of Votto, not a windmill.

I also disagree on Brantley's potential, of course.

:)

Brantley will never be as good as Stubbs is even right now. He just doesn't have the tools or the ability. People complain about Stubbs' strikeout rate but the reality is that he gets on base more than Brantley, and he's faster. As someone mentioned, when Stubbs is on he finds his way home most of the time. On top of this he's a better fielder, and has more power. There's literally nothing Brantley does that makes him preferable over Stubbs especially when you consider that we'll have a perfect leadoff in Hamilton soon enough.

As far as your comments about Stubbs...since being put infront of Votto he's 4/8 with 1 HR and 2 strikeouts. FWIW.

[malcontent]

As far as your comments about Stubbs...since being put infront of Votto he's 4/8 with 1 HR and 2 strikeouts. FWIW.
I'm willing to venture out on a limb and suggest that that won't last long.

Where is Hamilton going to play, anyway?

[IamRV]

Stubbs and Bailey to Cleveland for Brantley and LHP Nick Hagadone. Wha'cha think?

[Jamz]

I'm willing to venture out on a limb and suggest that that won't last long.

Where is Hamilton going to play, anyway?

I would assume that Phillips will be moving to 3rd and Hamilton to 2nd, but who knows? Maybe even left field?

Say it won't last long...but he's 2/3 on the day now with a double, a stolen base 1 r and 2 rbi. ijs

[The Rage]

Stubbs and Bailey to Cleveland for Brantley and LHP Nick Hagadone. Wha'cha think?

The Indians would be crying and saying in a hush voice: Thank you Reds, God love it, thank you!!

[malcontent]

If Stubbs is actually gonna swing the bat and make contact ...like he's been doing lately...what say you about a Heisey-for-Brantley trade?