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PuffyPig
07-26-2012, 08:32 AM
You get to re-read this thread, haha.

The most fun part to re-read is all the positive people that kept their heads two weeks into the season.

Re-reading this thread is simply confirmation that many posters here are simply band wagon jumpers who don't understand that baseball is a marathon.

How else do you explain some views of gutting a team that ranks among the major's best.

edabbs44
07-26-2012, 09:07 AM
Re-reading this thread is simply confirmation that many posters here are simply band wagon jumpers who don't understand that baseball is a marathon.

How else do you explain some views of gutting a team that ranks among the major's best.

And it is an ORG thread. Nice.

Some frequent, loud and respected posters want to treat each game, inning and decision like it is the 9th inning of Game 7 of the WS. Baseball isn't played this way. Baseball isn't like playing The Show and turning the energy attribute off. There are a multitude of factors that go into every decision that is made in every game, most of which we are not privy to.

This team is one of the best in baseball, top to bottom. The same guys who make certain decisions that confuse us also signed and stuck with Ludwick, constructed and managed one of the best staffs in baseball and are navigating the way while missing the best hitter in baseball.

Chins up, guys. It's a great time to be a Cincy fan.

traderumor
07-26-2012, 09:10 AM
Well, the person that started the thread hasn't posted since May 17...

top6
07-26-2012, 09:14 AM
Some frequent, loud and respected posters want to treat each game, inning and decision like it is the 9th inning of Game 7 of the WS. Baseball isn't played this way. Baseball isn't like playing The Show and turning the energy attribute off. There are a multitude of factors that go into every decision that is made in every game, most of which we are not privy to.


I don't disagree with you, but the same criticisms, and the old marathon/sprint point, could be made against the people who are giddy with excitement because the Reds are in first place in July. They haven't accomplished anything yet. And they haven't really accomplished any sort of post season success since the mid-1990s. Yes, things seem to be going in the right direction, but that's happened before as well.

That said, I laughed with joy to watch the top of the 9th the last two nights.

Vottomatic
07-26-2012, 09:44 AM
Meh. Did a thread search on me and didn't really find any panicking posts. I was critical of management not getting protection for Votto, but I think that still stands.

I'm encouraged by Walt's comments about what they would upgrade if the deal is there - leadoff and cleanup - so I know he gets it. I've just been dismayed in the past that they've counted on Rolen for so long when he clearly is not the All-Star caliber player he once was. But I'm more confident this will be addressed at the deadline or in the offseason.

You can laugh at the people who say the sky is falling during a bad start or bad stretch. But it's nearly as comical when the Reds hit a good stretch/winning streak and you get these threads dredged up with people pointing fingers and saying I told you so.

As has been said time and time again......it's a marathon, not a sprint. A bad stretch could easily be right around the corner.

Watching Stubbs jack Cordero the last 2 nights makes up alot for Stubbies usual struggles. That smile on my face is still there. Awesome.

jojo
07-26-2012, 09:45 AM
Things go in cycles. Right now if someone says chill and tries to inject some context to show this isn't Armageddon, there's primal screaming. When the Reds get on a roll and someone tries to inject some context to show player X really hasn't morphed into a new, sustainable awesomeness, there will be primal screaming.

Redsone would suck as one of the drivers on Ice Road Truckers given the way the tone over corrects...

reds44
07-26-2012, 10:13 AM
Re-reading this thread is simply confirmation that many posters here are simply band wagon jumpers who don't understand that baseball is a marathon.

How else do you explain some views of gutting a team that ranks among the major's best.
Holy God.

Hoosier Red
07-26-2012, 10:15 AM
Holy God.

No. I don't think he's responsible for the bandwagon jumping.
:D

wolfboy
07-26-2012, 10:39 AM
http://www.growingandgrowing.com/uploaded_images/pat-731183.gif

Homer Bailey
07-26-2012, 10:51 AM
I have no doubt that the Reds will have another cold streak, and the freaking out will start again. But I bumped this just to show how ridiculous it was to be freaking out over a 2 week sample. Here we are in late July, and the team is 18 over .500, on their way to over 90 wins.

PuffyPig
07-26-2012, 10:53 AM
I don't disagree with you, but the same criticisms, and the old marathon/sprint point, could be made against the people who are giddy with excitement because the Reds are in first place in July. They haven't accomplished anything yet.

They haven't made the playoffs yet, but I disagree they haven't accomplished anyithng yet. They accomplished the following:

(1) they've given us almost 4 months of pure enjoyment;

(2) they've put themselves in a position where a slump won't kill them. If we simply go .500 the rest of the season, we get to 90 wins, which just might get you into the playoffs. A cushion is a good thing.

(3) at a time when the player many feel is the most indespensible to his team in baseball went down, the Reds responsed by winning 8/10 at a time when the 2 teams chasing us haven't let up. If we had hit the skids during that 10 game period, we might be looking up at two teams.

If posters are giddy, it's not simply becuase we are winning. It's becuase the Reds look like a winning team, look like a team that wil continue to win, and certainly give the impression that they are way more capable of winning a game in the 9th than blowing one.

WildcatFan
07-26-2012, 11:02 AM
If posters are giddy, it's not simply becuase we are winning. It's becuase the Reds look like a winning team, look like a team that wil continue to win, and certainly give the impression that they are way more capable of winning a game in the 9th than blowing one.

Cut-->Paste-->Print 4,000 copies--> Hang them up everywhere you go.
I'll do the same.

I hope this stays in people's minds (read: mine too) when the Reds inevitably lose 5 of 7 in an August stretch.

wolfboy
07-26-2012, 11:10 AM
Cut-->Paste-->Print 4,000 copies--> Hang them up everywhere you go.
I'll do the same.

I hope this stays in people's minds (read: mine too) when the Reds inevitably lose 5 of 7 in an August stretch.

You've been around long enough to know better. :D

Kc61
07-26-2012, 11:11 AM
The Reds have exceeded my expectations in terms of W-L record so far and in terms of pitching. I never thought the team, playing in GABP, with this staff, would be so high up the charts in pitching stats.

But the concerns about the offense remain. I think the Reds still have an unbalanced, low OBP offensive team, and sooner or later, in big games even playoff games, this will catch up to them.

It won't take a lot of change to fix this, it's doable, and I still hope Walt will do it by the deadline or in waiver deals in August.

UKFlounder
07-26-2012, 11:23 AM
Message boards are a "here-and-now" format and will always have overreactions. It's the nature of not only the message board beast, but of fandom too. We're fans, we get excited and pissed off, sometimes overly so. It happens.

So some people were worried early in the season. So what?

I guess we could just stop all discussion until the season ends and then judge it without worry about anybody being too positive or too negative, but that's not realistic for a message board.

I know I was unhappy when the season began, even if I did not post it, and I'm very pleased now, even if I'm not publicly celebrating, but I think most fans are similar.

The team has ups and dowsn and many (most?) fans follow, especially on boards like this. No big deal what someone said months ago, even if current events make them appear to have been wrong

Puffy
07-26-2012, 12:01 PM
Re-reading this thread is simply confirmation that many posters here are simply band wagon jumpers who don't understand baseball


You could have stopped there, IMO.

wolfboy
07-26-2012, 12:10 PM
After reading through the first couple of pages of this thread, I think there are three, maybe four posters who were doing the whole chicken little thing. The vast majority of posters were trying to talk everyone else off the ledge. Yet, somehow this thread supports the proposition that most posters on this board are bandwagon jumpers who don't understand baseball? Really?

kaldaniels
07-26-2012, 12:12 PM
I bet the Votto to the DL thread will be a fun one to look back on as well.

DGullett35
07-26-2012, 12:20 PM
I bet the Votto to the DL thread will be a fun one to look back on as well.

Ill admit I was thinking the worst when Votto went down. I quickly then thought that If this team is going to be a great team that they would have to step up and weather the storm. All great teams overcome obstacles during the season and thats exactly what this Reds team is doing. Heck, getting Votto back will be like landing the biggest free-agent on the market.

PuffyPig
07-26-2012, 12:23 PM
Yet, somehow this thread supports the proposition that most posters on this board are bandwagon jumpers who don't understand baseball? Really?

There is a world of difference between the words "many" and "most".

Read a game thread. "Many" posters give up when the other team scores a run. But I wouldn't say "most" do.

WVRedsFan
07-26-2012, 12:24 PM
Message boards are a "here-and-now" format and will always have overreactions. It's the nature of not only the message board beast, but of fandom too. We're fans, we get excited and pissed off, sometimes overly so. It happens.

So some people were worried early in the season. So what?

I guess we could just stop all discussion until the season ends and then judge it without worry about anybody being too positive or too negative, but that's not realistic for a message board.

I know I was unhappy when the season began, even if I did not post it, and I'm very pleased now, even if I'm not publicly celebrating, but I think most fans are similar.

The team has ups and dowsn and many (most?) fans follow, especially on boards like this. No big deal what someone said months ago, even if current events make them appear to have been wrongLike. What's the point of discussion if everyone agrees? What's the goal here? Are we to be always up (impossible), never question (not likely), and not post for fear that we will be branded as "not understanding baseball," or "bandwagon fans?"

When this board started in the late 90's, it was a place where Reds fans could discuss what was going on with our team. There will always be ups and downs during a season, much joy as well as gnashing of teeth. It is a marathon, but the here and now is so hard to ignore. that's human nature.

wolfboy
07-26-2012, 12:32 PM
There is a world of difference between the words "many" and "most".

Read a game thread. "Many" posters give up when the other team scores a run. But I wouldn't say "most" do.

Fair enough. I wasn't trying to mischaracterise what you said, but I still think it's a harsh statement. People go chicken little sometimes. Does that mean they don't understand baseball? Maybe. At the same time, maybe they're passionate and let a little too much emotion slip from time to time. I think there's room for some of that around here. When it gets out of hand, it's usually taken care of appropriately. Just an observation.

PuffyPig
07-26-2012, 12:46 PM
Like. What's the point of discussion if everyone agrees? What's the goal here? Are we to be always up (impossible), never question (not likely), and not post for fear that we will be branded as "not understanding baseball," or "bandwagon fans?"

When this board started in the late 90's, it was a place where Reds fans could discuss what was going on with our team. There will always be ups and downs during a season, much joy as well as gnashing of teeth. It is a marathon, but the here and now is so hard to ignore. that's human nature.

IMO, there's a world of difference between discussion and someone suggesting that "this season is over" after 2 weeks, or "this game is over" when we get down 2-0 in the 2nd inning. Too many posters don't understand that randomness determines a huge portion of every game.

OldXOhio
07-26-2012, 12:51 PM
Like. What's the point of discussion if everyone agrees? What's the goal here? Are we to be always up (impossible), never question (not likely), and not post for fear that we will be branded as "not understanding baseball," or "bandwagon fans?"

When this board started in the late 90's, it was a place where Reds fans could discuss what was going on with our team. There will always be ups and downs during a season, much joy as well as gnashing of teeth. It is a marathon, but the here and now is so hard to ignore. that's human nature.

WV - I agree, but I think most of this is understood by all. I believe what has prompted this response was the rather extreme tone taken by some so early in the season. One of the main reasons I visit this site regularly is to get a sensible, substantive approach to what is happening on the field. I find it particularly useful during down times when the team is struggling. Frankly, there are a lot of other sites available if one is simply looking for a steady diet of responses backed by emotion and gut feelings. If one wants to use this forum to vent frustration in a drastic fashion, then they should know that the bar has been set high enough here to where someone is probably going to call them out with evidence to the contrary.

Scrap Irony
07-26-2012, 12:52 PM
I'd add in the plethora of posts/ threads about said struggles and the woe-is-us mentality hurts discussion rather than fosters it. If you think the Reds aren't good (and a bunch of guys thought just that), fine. No biggie. But why beat it into the ground? Support your point, and roll on.

JMO, of course, but that's what makes Redszone unique among sports boards. The (some say past) willingness to support a point with specifics rather than simply say they suck and to engage in discussion without resorting to histrionics. I think, as we evolve as a board, that ability sometimes gets lost.

Here's hoping it doesn't.

_Sir_Charles_
07-26-2012, 02:03 PM
I agree that the 3 starters come back down to earth with a resounding THUD. But the offense, it's not going to keep that up either.

Jon Jay .414/.468/.529/.996
Rafael Furcal .333/.398/.476/.874
David Freese .326/.381/.573/.954
Yadier Molina .311/.364/.556/.919

No way these guys keep this up. None.

Jon Jay .301/.369/.389/.758
Rafael Furcal .277/.347/.359/.706
David Freese .308/.377/.497/.874
Yadier Molina .303/.354/.500/.854

Freese & Molina have done a better job than I thought of hanging around those early numbers. Several others have tailed off as well too. But unfortunately, Holiday's improvement compensated. The pitchers...other than Loshe...thud! Bullpen...bigger thud!

Caveat Emperor
07-26-2012, 02:32 PM
I'm still panicking, for whatever it's worth.

redsmetz
07-26-2012, 03:39 PM
I'm not necessarily a total optimist when it comes to this season, but goodness gracious I have a feeling there is going to be some downright hilarious reading material in July when looking back at April.

Let that sink in for a second. We're still three months from when teams usually throw in the towel and people are talking about managers being fired, general managers not getting the job done, players needing to go, etc.

For crying out loud we're 7% of the way into the season. It's barely even far enough in to have any kind of decent sample size let alone be making definitive judgments.

When the season began, I thought this team would be a good pitching staff (even without Madson) and about an average offense with above-average defense. If the offensive players were even hitting their career averages right now, the Reds would be in first place or a game or two back and there would be absolutely no one worrying in the slightest. And that's without the starting pitchers really pitching to their ability.

The point here is this won't keep up. While the offense might have some holes, it's not going to be prolifically bad. The conclusions are reaching an all-time high (or low) for ridiculousness right now. Like I said... let's revisit this in July. I tend to think this will be a whole different picture.

I know this is the post that was used to bring this thread forward, but when we get around to our annual awards, I nominate this as the top contender for the absolutely best post of the entire season.

MikeS21
07-26-2012, 04:51 PM
My, the bandwagon here around must have some awfully slick seats ...

westofyou
07-26-2012, 04:57 PM
I blame football for the lack of baseball season acumen in today's world.

Baseball is a journey, a long jaunt through long warm days. It's a game of patience and adjustments.

Football is a weekly war with short returns on accomplishments and intense needs to correct obvious shortcomings. All beaten to a pulp over and over again on the six days between games.

In short being a fan of both sports is not similar in any manner.

WVRedsFan
07-26-2012, 05:10 PM
I blame football for the lack of baseball season acumen in today's world.

Baseball is a journey, a long jaunt through long warm days. It's a game of patience and adjustments.

Football is a weekly war with short returns on accomplishments and intense needs to correct obvious shortcomings. All beaten to a pulp over and over again on the six days between games.

In short being a fan of both sports is not similar in any manner.

True. Well stated. Doesn't stop the hand-wringing, though.

Tom Servo
07-26-2012, 08:35 PM
Meh. Did a thread search on me and didn't really find any panicking posts. I was critical of management not getting protection for Votto, but I think that still stands. ..

You can laugh at the people who say the sky is falling during a bad start or bad stretch. But it's nearly as comical when the Reds hit a good stretch/winning streak and you get these threads dredged up with people pointing fingers and saying I told you so.

http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=94626

You may believe I'm picking on you, but your thread struck me then as the most ridiculous series of overreactions I'd ever seen on RedsZone and months later it remains the same.

Roy Tucker
07-26-2012, 11:07 PM
Things are never as good as they seem nor they as bad as they seem.

I get as cranked up as the next guy when things are bad, barking and grumbling with the best of them. I'm a fan and I blow off steam. But I also tell myself "hang in there little buckaroo, the sun will shine tomorrow" (or something like that). And when things do get better and the team wins, I'm like a teen girl in love for the first time and all giddy about wins. But I also tell myself "there's a storm coming in" and I know there is the inevitable slump starting in the next game or week. All kinda like how life is.

But that's our fate as baseball fans. I like the ups and downs. It would be boring if it were all consistent and predicatable. I do that stuff with my financial planner and my lawyer. With my baseball team, I love the roller coaster ride. Makes me feel alive.

Scrap Irony
07-26-2012, 11:18 PM
You call yourself a buckaroo?

Roy Tucker
07-26-2012, 11:35 PM
You call yourself a buckaroo?


Yippee ki-yay, get along little dogie.

Big Klu
07-27-2012, 04:44 AM
Yippee ki-yay...

http://www.badassoftheweek.com/mcclane-diehard.jpg

edabbs44
07-27-2012, 08:08 AM
I blame football for the lack of baseball season acumen in today's world.

Baseball is a journey, a long jaunt through long warm days. It's a game of patience and adjustments.

Football is a weekly war with short returns on accomplishments and intense needs to correct obvious shortcomings. All beaten to a pulp over and over again on the six days between games.

In short being a fan of both sports is not similar in any manner.

Agreed, along with a pinch of fantasy sports and a dab of video games.

Scrap Irony
07-27-2012, 11:25 AM
http://www.badassoftheweek.com/mcclane-diehard.jpg

I'm pretty sure that line didn't end with "get along little doggies.: :p

redsmetz
07-28-2012, 09:24 AM
I was looking at the club's overall stats on baseball-reference.com and I was reminded that we finished April at .500. I think I recall someone noting that around here afterwards, although I'm not sure if it was in this thread or not. Given how horrifically we played out of the gate, it seems to have portended what this club had in its future to see that we righted ourselves and have progressed so well.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/CIN/2012-schedule-scores.shtml

I originally went there to see how many shut outs we've had (7) with us only having been shut out twice so far (knock on wood!). I was thinking about a month ago as we had some of these yin & yang discussions that the team didn't give me that "we can come back from anything" feel like the 2010 team did, or like the '99 team did too. But now, I pretty much have an overall good feeling about this year's team.

paulrichjr
07-28-2012, 10:20 AM
I was looking at the club's overall stats on baseball-reference.com and I was reminded that we finished April at .500. I think I recall...

I originally went there to see how many shut outs we've had (7) with us only having been shut out twice so far (knock on wood!). I was thinking about a month ago as we had some of these yin & yang discussions that the team didn't give me that "we can come back from anything" feel like the 2010 team did, or like the '99 team did too. But now, I pretty much have an overall good feeling about this year's team.

One big difference. This teams pitching won't allow them to make dramatic comebacks. The Reds are usually in a very close game or winning. No need for magic when you are just plain good.

Crumbley
07-28-2012, 03:05 PM
RZ would be so boring if everyone kept their heads and were super patient and pragmatic. You need the occasional meltdown and/or freak out. We have a good mix and it's why I've found this board so interesting to read for the past decade.

redsmetz
07-28-2012, 03:28 PM
One big difference. This teams pitching won't allow them to make dramatic comebacks. The Reds are usually in a very close game or winning. No need for magic when you are just plain good.

That's a good angle that I hadn't considered. I think the win where we came back from 6-0 against the D'Backs was one of the few games (if not the only one) where we came back this year in a big way.

Kc61
07-28-2012, 03:29 PM
RZ would be so boring if everyone kept their heads and were super patient and pragmatic. You need the occasional meltdown and/or freak out. We have a good mix and it's why I've found this board so interesting to read for the past decade.

Yes. Of course, if we want, we could request an entire forum devoted to calling people on concerns, ideas, and predictions that turned out wrong.

For example, we could have a thread on people who wanted to send Aroldis Chapman to the minor leagues this year and people who thought it was insane to put him in the bullpen.

We could have a thread on people (like me) who were concerned about Homer Bailey being in the rotation this year.

We could have a thread on people who posted that Jay Bruce had turned the corner when he had a got streak earlier in the season.

We could have a thread on people who posted that Dusty's use of his pitching staff was ridiculous and he doesn't know what he's doing.

We could have a thread recounting the posts from the middle of last winter complaining that Walt wasn't making any deals.

If we go back to last year, I'm sure there's a thread that Bryan Price shouldn't be the pitching coach.

I'd rather focus on the future of the team and continue to express frustration, happiness, anger, predictions, ideas, and just plain root for the Reds. And occasionally be very wrong and occasionally be completely right.

My main concern now is tonight's game in Colorado.

Scrap Irony
07-28-2012, 03:36 PM
Yes. Of course, if we want, we could request an entire forum devoted to calling people on concerns, ideas, and predictions that turned out wrong.

For example, we could have a thread on people who wanted to send Aroldis Chapman to the minor leagues this year and people who thought it was insane to put him in the bullpen.

We could have a thread on people (like me) who were concerned about Homer Bailey being in the rotation this year.

We could have a thread on people who posted that Jay Bruce had turned the corner when he had a got streak earlier in the season.

We could have a thread on people who posted that Dusty's use of his pitching staff was ridiculous and he doesn't know what he's doing.

We could have a thread recounting the posts from the middle of last winter complaining that Walt wasn't making any deals.

If we go back to last year, I'm sure there's a thread that Bryan Price shouldn't be the pitching coach.

I'd rather focus on the future of the team and continue to express frustration, happiness, anger, predictions, ideas, and just plain root for the Reds. And occasionally be very wrong and occasionally be completely right.

My main concern now is tonight's game in Colorado.

I'd argue that posters who tend to be wrong should be read with a more critical eye, while those that are more often right should be pointed out as such and taken as "better" evaluators. It's important, IMO, to see where we've been to see where we're going. Pointing out mistakes is a part of posting opinions. it's the price you pay.

Tom Servo
07-28-2012, 03:39 PM
Yes. Of course, if we want, we could request an entire forum devoted to calling people on concerns, ideas, and predictions that turned out wrong.
I know you're being sarcastic, but I would honestly be in favor of this. Maybe it would improve post quality if people legitimately know that any ridiculous, BananaPhone level statements they make could be brought back up later.

Kc61
07-28-2012, 03:44 PM
Posting on the board is supposed to be fun.

I don't care if somebody is right or wrong. In many cases, there is no right or wrong.

As long as folks are respectful and try to be well reasoned in their posts.

If the idea is some kind of game of "gotcha" then it defeats the purpose of allowing people to express their feelings on the team.

This isn't life or death. If someone is wrong, he/she is wrong. Big deal.

Tom Servo
07-28-2012, 04:08 PM
Posting on the board is supposed to be fun.

I don't care if somebody is right or wrong. In many cases, there is no right or wrong.

As long as folks are respectful and try to be well reasoned in their posts.

If the idea is some kind of game of "gotcha" then it defeats the purpose of allowing people to express their feelings on the team.

This isn't life or death. If someone is wrong, he/she is wrong. Big deal.
I think you misunderstood my point. You brought up your concerns about Homer earlier in the year. Those are valid, and I doubt anybody has brought them up again. But posters repeatedly (and that's the thing, it's never just one and done, these people want their voice to be loud and proud) making statements about how the Reds season is "over" a week into the 162 game season...I find little reason to let comments like that slide by without comment.

I don't consider it "gotcha" at all. I think posters should, quite frankly, just be smarter to begin with. We are the Old Red Guard, not the Banana Phone.

Scrap Irony
07-28-2012, 04:08 PM
By that same token, posters then shouldn't get angry at having been wrong.

And there is wrong, make no mistake.

It's not a "gotcha" game-- it goes to who has the ethos in an argument/ debate.

As to the "gotcha" dismissal-- I do not understand the reluctance from many posters. It's like you want to have an opinion, but not be held accountable for it. Soemtimes, we're wrong. Take it like a man, and let's roll.

_Sir_Charles_
07-28-2012, 04:37 PM
Very fair points. I'd only like the people who come in and call a guy on a "gotcha" do it with tact and are respectful...or at least with a sense of humor.

As for me...I'm very guilty of the Chapman & Bruce ones from KC's list. VERY. :O)

edabbs44
07-28-2012, 04:52 PM
I think you misunderstood my point. You brought up your concerns about Homer earlier in the year. Those are valid, and I doubt anybody has brought them up again. But posters repeatedly (and that's the thing, it's never just one and done, these people want their voice to be loud and proud) making statements about how the Reds season is "over" a week into the 162 game season...I find little reason to let comments like that slide by without comment.

I don't consider it "gotcha" at all. I think posters should, quite frankly, just be smarter to begin with. We are the Old Red Guard, not the Banana Phone.

Agree. Sometimes it cracks me up when some have less than a stellar track record in predictions/criticisms/suggestions/etc and then try to make similar arguments on different topics later on down the line. Sometimes it takes a lot to stop from bringing up old posts.

Scrap Irony
07-28-2012, 04:54 PM
Very fair points. I'd only like the people who come in and call a guy on a "gotcha" do it with tact and are respectful...or at least with a sense of humor.

As for me...I'm very guilty of the Chapman & Bruce ones from KC's list. VERY. :O)

I'd like people to play "gotcha" with tact and respect too, but, fact is, if I'm wrong, I'm wrong. No amount of respect, humor, or tact will change that.

I've been wrong on an absolute ton of things in the decade-plus I've been on Redszone. But, as those wrongs were shown to me, I hopefully learned from them and became a better, more thoughtful poster.

RedlegJake
07-28-2012, 08:51 PM
I don't mind being wrong - heck I've been wrong so often in my life its not funny. In fact anyone who is my age and isn't rich has made a whole lot of dumb decisions because life always presents you with a range of choices and I'm convinced in America if we steadily make the right choices for a lifetime we'll usually windup successful and well off. The truth is we're wrong more than we're right every day of our lives. It's part of living. What you do is admit it and keep on trucking. And sometimes someone points it out and it rubs you wrong and you bark a bit. But if you have any sense about you, apologize for being a sensitive weenie and get back to choosing. That's what this whole business of living is about anyway. Choices. Whether we're debating the Reds, raising our kids, working on our relationships or doing our jobs....

So am I wrong a lot on here...oh yeah...but I'm old and entitled to my incorrect opinions! They keep me..well..curmudgeonly.

VR
07-29-2012, 12:23 AM
I'd like people to play "gotcha" with tact and respect too, but, fact is, if I'm wrong, I'm wrong. No amount of respect, humor, or tact will change that.

I've been wrong on an absolute ton of things in the decade-plus I've been on Redszone. But, as those wrongs were shown to me, I hopefully learned from them and became a better, more thoughtful poster.

Right. But you present your opinions as "I think this or that". Not presenting things as absolute facts that no one dare debate.

Those people need it stuck in their face, sorry.

Scrap Irony
07-29-2012, 12:30 AM
Right. But you present your opinions as "I think this or that". Not presenting things as absolute facts that no one dare debate.

Those people need it stuck in their face, sorry.

I don't disagree, VR.

kaldaniels
07-29-2012, 12:36 AM
Right. But you present your opinions as "I think this or that". Not presenting things as absolute facts that no one dare debate.

Those people need it stuck in their face, sorry.

100 percent agreed.

My pet peeve is the "I'm eating crow and I love it" remark after a negative in-your-face poster is proven wrong.

RedlegJake
07-29-2012, 01:31 AM
100 percent agreed.

My pet peeve is the "I'm eating crow and I love it" remark after a negative in-your-face poster is proven wrong.

LOL - I must piss you off then Kal - I've used that one before - especially on Homer Bailey. I admit I'd given up on him.

kaldaniels
07-29-2012, 01:33 AM
LOL - I must piss you off then Kal - I've used that one before - especially on Homer Bailey. I admit I'd given up on him.

I really didn't have anybody in mind when I wrote that - but since you fessed up I have no choice but to hold that against you forever. :laugh:

wolfboy
07-29-2012, 10:46 AM
By that same token, posters then shouldn't get angry at having been wrong.

And there is wrong, make no mistake.

It's not a "gotcha" game-- it goes to who has the ethos in an argument/ debate.

As to the "gotcha" dismissal-- I do not understand the reluctance from many posters. It's like you want to have an opinion, but not be held accountable for it. Soemtimes, we're wrong. Take it like a man, and let's roll.

Maybe the rest of us don't care to sift through the crappy threads from April in July. It's bad enough the first time around.

Vottomatic
07-29-2012, 11:08 AM
Maybe the rest of us don't care to sift through the crappy threads from April in July. It's bad enough the first time around.

Yeah one of the reasons people throw something in someone else's face is to thump their own chest. Lack of self esteem can be what prompts people to insult or attack others. It gets tiresome.

mth123
07-29-2012, 11:12 AM
We're just talking baseball here. This isn't a competition. Every thread has something posted that's later proven wrong and just about everybody is on the wrong side of a discussion at some point. The idea that we have to dredge it up all the time just hampers discussion of new developments and fresh situations. If we're going to do that, I suggest it be in a separate forum and leave that junk out of the old Red guard. Thse that are so inclined can feed their heads and thump their chests saying they were right and others were wrong without those who'd rather just talk baseball having to sift through it.

Nothing turns me off more than posting about the posters and not the issue at hand. It seems to directly violate rule 5 at the bottom of this page.

Scrap Irony
07-29-2012, 11:40 AM
It's not a personal attack to show someone they were wrong.

I want to learn about the Reds and my own personal bias. I want to be a better, more thoughtful poster. Therefore, I don't view it as bad form to be called out about something upon which I was wrong.

It goes with having an opinion. If you're man enough to post the opinion on an almost completely anonymous website visited by a few hundred baseball fanatics, be man enough to accept when you're wrong, too.

And if you don't want to read it, no one's forcing you to. Personally, I love to read through these old threads, looking both for my own opinion (as I usually have one, and it's often at odds with what I thought it might have been) and for that of posters I respect. RMR is right much, much more often than he's wrong. jojo, too. Though we disagree on many other issues, Brutus the Pimp also looks like he's right often enough to give his opinion credence.

M2 often, in the old days, seemed to be absolutely spot-on in his opinion. I wish he'd have posted more in 2010 and this season in order to gauge what he thought of these guys. Que sera.

For many posters, this has nothing to do with thumping your own chest for being right--it does, however, have to do with being a better evaluator and poster. We learn. As fans, that's what many of us are here for-- to learn about the game we love and the team we follow.

nate
07-29-2012, 11:49 AM
As mth just posted, we're talking baseball, not curing cancer.

To me, "I told you so-ism" is lame. It implies an absoluteness that absolutely doesn't exist in baseball (LOL! see what I did there?)

Virtually everything we talk about from lineups to players to statistics are issues that change the probability of winning.

But no matter how many ways one stacks the odds, there's never a 100% chance of winning.

The only time "I told you so-ism" is OK is in a game thread where threadfarting occurs when behind in the second inning.

Tar, feathers.

:cool:

Kc61
07-29-2012, 11:55 AM
For many posters, this has nothing to do with thumping your own chest for being right--it does, however, have to do with being a better evaluator and poster. We learn. As fans, that's what many of us are here for-- to learn about the game we love and the team we follow.

Gee, if posters are interested in comparing with old posts to become a "better evaluator" then those posters are free to read any old threads they want.

But why, I might ask, must they bring the old threads up for everyone else to re-read?

I would suggest that mth is right on here. The reason is obvious.

The damage is that some posters may feel reluctant to post if they know that their old posts are being trumpeted around when they are wrong. So this type of thing serves to quell discussion and free expression.

As mth says, this is only baseball. If someone is wrong, so be it. If someone is absolutely adamant and wrong, so be it.

There's nothing to stop people from engaging in this "gotcha" game, but I would simply hope that posters realize that most of us don't care if you are right, wrong, or indifferent, as long as your posts are respectful and as well reasoned as possible.

_Sir_Charles_
07-29-2012, 11:57 AM
Nice. Well put Nate. And Mth and KC.

wolfboy
07-29-2012, 11:58 AM
It goes with having an opinion. If you're man enough to post the opinion on an almost completely anonymous website visited by a few hundred baseball fanatics, be man enough to accept when you're wrong, too.

Questioning someone's manhood sure seems personal attackish, but maybe that's just me.

The "I told you so" posts before the end of July are just as bad as chicken little threads early in the season. They add nothing to the discussion and just revive useless posts. People learn around here by seeing well reasoned posts, not from having those posts rubbed in their faces. The maxim that comes to mind is "act like you've been there before."

Scrap Irony
07-29-2012, 01:50 PM
The damage is that some posters may feel reluctant to post if they know that their old posts are being trumpeted around when they are wrong. So this type of thing serves to quell discussion and free expression.

If they're the types of posts seen in the Ludwick and serious trouble threads, good. Those types of posts added nothing other than kvetching.

Again, showing you're wrong isn't an attack-- it's a learning opportunity.

dougdirt
07-29-2012, 01:52 PM
If they're the types of posts seen in the Ludwick and serious trouble threads, good. Those types of posts added nothing other than kvetching.

Again, showing you're wrong isn't an attack-- it's a learning opportunity.

Saying "I told you so" isn't needed. It is something that children do. Adults shouldn't. We are all wrong. It happens.

Scrap Irony
07-29-2012, 02:01 PM
Learning from our past mistakes as they are held to the light of day is something we should all do. Ignoring it is something our society struggles with.

Scrap Irony
07-29-2012, 02:08 PM
Saying "I told you so" isn't needed. It is something that children do. Adults shouldn't. We are all wrong. It happens.

So, just to make sure I understand your point:

As a prospect "expert," you analyze prospects, I assume, for a living.

You take no responsibility for your analysis at all?

wolfboy
07-29-2012, 02:09 PM
So what has actually been proven by dredging this thread back up? Avoid knee jerk reactions? So the thread is born during the worst stretch of the season and becomes an "i told you so" thread during the team's best stretch. That is two sides of the same coin, not a learning exercise.

Scrap Irony
07-29-2012, 02:20 PM
So what has actually been proven by dredging this thread back up? Avoid knee jerk reactions?

1) Sure, that's one thing. Absolutely. That early in the season, it's questionable to make any assumptions about the team. (Or any one person.)

Other learning experiences you may draw from these threads:

2) Avoid small sample sizes as "proof" of anything.
3) Players tend to play to the back of their baseball cards.
4) The Red front office and Walt Jocketty know what they're doing in creating a team. Question him at your own peril.
5) Sometimes, veteran acquisitions help a team take a step forward.

dougdirt
07-29-2012, 02:55 PM
So, just to make sure I understand your point:

As a prospect "expert," you analyze prospects, I assume, for a living.

You take no responsibility for your analysis at all?

I didn't say that. I said we don't need people going around saying "I told you so". It accomplishes nothing. We are capable of realizing our own mistakes.

Patrick Bateman
07-29-2012, 03:01 PM
1) Sure, that's one thing. Absolutely. That early in the season, it's questionable to make any assumptions about the team. (Or any one person.)

Other learning experiences you may draw from these threads:

2) Avoid small sample sizes as "proof" of anything.
3) Players tend to play to the back of their baseball cards.
4) The Red front office and Walt Jocketty know what they're doing in creating a team. Question him at your own peril.
5) Sometimes, veteran acquisitions help a team take a step forward.

Agreed.

It's a learning excercise in the sense that many declared the season over based on a small handful of games. In the future, I would think fans might learn a bit more patience knowing that small samples cannot be used as a reliable projector of the future. The point is, some posters were wrong for the wrong reasons. You can also be wrong by using well thought out arguments, this is not one of those cases, hence why I think there is something to be gained by evaluating this thread in hindsight.

VR
07-29-2012, 03:56 PM
I didn't say that. I said we don't need people going around saying "I told you so". It accomplishes nothing. We are capable of realizing our own mistakes.

What's the difference in saying "I told you so" from a post a month ago....vs. shouting down someone else's opinion that doesn't see it the same way in a new thread?

So many good posters just don't post here anymore....because discussion has become so rare and diluted. Diversity is gone. Female posters don't dare post anymore.....place used to be chock full of them.

Someone mentioned 'competition' before....and I think that is spot on.

This thread does have some good discussion however.

wheels
07-29-2012, 04:08 PM
I think this thread could serve as a tribute to the paucity of negative things going on with the actual ball club.

I suppose we just need to create things to argue about. Greek tragedy or some such.

Vottomatic
07-29-2012, 04:17 PM
I have friends (I know......hard to believe :D ) who used to post on message boards and quit for some of these same reasons.

Here is their idea of who is on the other side of the computer saying "I told ya so".

[image removed by Plus Plus]

If the image is too obscene (which I can't believe because it doesn't show any embarrassing body parts) then a mod can delete.

Scrap Irony
07-29-2012, 04:41 PM
I didn't say that. I said we don't need people going around saying "I told you so". It accomplishes nothing. We are capable of realizing our own mistakes.

My students say the same thing.

Without being shown the error of our ways, we often assume we're right. Tacit admission of correctness and all that. Think of it as Redszone's way of whispering in Casear's ear, "You are not a god."

M2
07-29-2012, 04:44 PM
Given the amount of rooster fighting and faux expertism some posters on this board engage in, I think frequent I-told-you-sos are in order. For the record I've got no problem being reminded if I've been adamantly wrong about something. I actually try to learn from those moments.

wolfboy
07-29-2012, 04:45 PM
Agreed.

It's a learning excercise in the sense that many declared the season over based on a small handful of games. In the future, I would think fans might learn a bit more patience knowing that small samples cannot be used as a reliable projector of the future. The point is, some posters were wrong for the wrong reasons. You can also be wrong by using well thought out arguments, this is not one of those cases, hence why I think there is something to be gained by evaluating this thread in hindsight.

And some are seemingly ready to declare the season a success based on a nice hot streak. I don't dispute that revisiting a thread like this could have some value, but at an appropriate time, such as next spring when the inevitable chicken little threads sprouts up again. The only thing that's accomplished by revisiting this thread now is the ability to say "I told you so.". This team hasn't accomplished anything yet, and that's just as knee-jerk as saying the sky is falling in April.

M2
07-29-2012, 04:45 PM
Think of it as Redszone's way of whispering in Casear's ear, "You are not a god."

Speak hands for me.

wolfboy
07-29-2012, 04:48 PM
Think of it as Redszone's way of whispering in Casear's ear, "You are not a god."

Perhaps that is what's going on here.

Scrap Irony
07-29-2012, 04:49 PM
Speak hands for me.

hehe. Shakespeare and a Joss Whedon bon mot ("Poofy-haired fancy boy") in another thread in about five minutes.

Only on Redszone.

Heh.

edabbs44
07-29-2012, 05:00 PM
Speak hands for me.


And some are seemingly ready to declare the season a success based on a nice hot streak. I don't dispute that revisiting a thread like this could have some value, but at an appropriate time, such as next spring when the inevitable chicken little threads sprouts up again. The only thing that's accomplished by revisiting this thread now is the ability to say "I told you so.". This team hasn't accomplished anything yet, and that's just as knee-jerk as saying the sky is falling in April.

The performance after 100 games is much more representative of the team's abilities than after 10 games.

wolfboy
07-29-2012, 05:07 PM
The performance after 100 games is much more representative of the team's abilities than after 10 games.

Agreed, but the timing after a big hot streak seems suspect to me. They're also only 2 games above the Pirates with a lot of baseball left.

Brutus
07-29-2012, 05:13 PM
Agreed, but the timing after a big hot streak seems suspect to me. They're also only 2 games above the Pirates with a lot of baseball left.

There's a difference between acting like the playoffs are a foregone conclusion and suggesting that, after four months, it's clear this is a good baseball team. Being a good baseball team doesn't mean anyone thinks the playoffs are going to be easy, but they're now 20 games above .500 and it's almost August. The doomsday prophecies in the second week of April were clearly without merit.

medford
07-29-2012, 05:20 PM
Its July 29th and this team has the best record in baseball. Sure they've got holes and issues, but apparently everyone else does as well so far. Its a good pitching team, a good fielding team and the MVP might be back by next weekend. Lets enjoy the ride rather than dwell on who believes the playoffs are a lock or a long ways off.

wolfboy
07-29-2012, 05:22 PM
There's a difference between acting like the playoffs are a foregone conclusion and suggesting that, after four months, it's clear this is a good baseball team. Being a good baseball team doesn't mean anyone thinks the playoffs are going to be easy, but they're now 20 games above .500 and it's almost August. The doomsday prophecies in the second week of April were clearly without merit.

I don't disagree; however, I fail to see how dredging up these threads adds to constructive discussion.

medford
07-29-2012, 05:38 PM
I don't disagree; however, I fail to see how dredging up these threads adds to constructive discussion.

Perhaps to remind people that a week (or month) of baseball does not a season make. Many of us were fustrated the way this team came out of the gate, fustrated that Latos, Leake & Homer were all struggling, fustrated that the team looked anything but the part of a playoff contender. Thankfully they righted the ship. Sometimes we all need a reminder that in a marathon its not any single individual step that wins or losses you a race, but the culmination of a thousand steps that gets you to the finish line.

Brutus
07-29-2012, 05:39 PM
I don't disagree; however, I fail to see how dredging up these threads adds to constructive discussion.

I don't necessarily disagree with that. Personally, calling people out isn't being done to 'help people learn from their mistakes.' I think that's grasping. I do think there were some very strong opinions early in the year, and the ones that were chiding others for not believing the world was ending are now being chided back.

But the point is that after two weeks, we weren't far enough into the season to know, truly, what kind of team the Reds had. Now as we are almost in August, I think we have a pretty good idea.

Tom Servo
07-29-2012, 05:45 PM
nm

jojo
07-29-2012, 06:01 PM
The reality is that there was no great mystery that the Reds were a good baseball team before the first pitch was thrown.

I think those calling scoreboard after 7 games and those who waited till game 100 were both off.

There's a real sabermetric teaching moment in that argument if that's what this is about.

wheels
07-29-2012, 06:20 PM
We're fans. Fan comes fron fanatic. It's in our nature to be on the ledge, go nuts, be irrational, panic over the 25th slot on the roster, and knee-jerk react to every micro-trend. That's why we sit up in the stands and not on the field or in the front office. It's the nature of the game.

We just need to be aware of when we're being irrational (I hope that works, I ask my wife to be that way and it usually doesn't go over well).

:)

Roy Tucker summed up this thread months ago.

dougdirt
07-29-2012, 06:24 PM
My students say the same thing.

Without being shown the error of our ways, we often assume we're right. Tacit admission of correctness and all that. Think of it as Redszone's way of whispering in Casear's ear, "You are not a god."

Your students aren't adults.

edabbs44
07-29-2012, 06:36 PM
I don't disagree; however, I fail to see how dredging up these threads adds to constructive discussion.

I think a refresher can be constructive. I see a lot of examples of posters who post in definitive terms and take strong positions on a number of different topics. I would think that there is relevance to those discussions if said poster(s) have a strong/weak track record.

mth123
07-29-2012, 06:43 PM
I see this thing regressing into a game of one up man ship. Poster A will quote a post from Poster B to show he was wrong. Poster B will search through Poster A's posts to find something to retaliate with. Pretty soon, this site will be like the WWE.

Do you smellllllll what Scrap Irony is cooking?;)

That's why I say, if you want to do this stuff, make another forum for it. Those who want to take the high road can more easily avoid such stuff.

Kc61
07-29-2012, 06:58 PM
I see this thing regressing into a game of one up man ship. Poster A will quote a post from Poster B to show he was wrong. Poster B will search through Poster A's posts to find something to retaliate with. Pretty soon, this site will be like the WWE.

Do you smellllllll what Scrap Irony is cooking?;)

That's why I say, if you want to do this stuff, make another forum for it. Those who want to take the high road can more easily avoid such stuff.

No. There should be no separate forum, even though I initially suggested it.

This thread should simply be closed. It is not about "teaching" people, the purpose for dredging it up was a little fun at some people's expense, and it should be terminated. Enough.

The Reds are in first place, let's spend our time discussing Reds baseball.

And why is Lecure walking people with a five run lead in the ninth? Why is he in this game anyway?

RedlegJake
07-29-2012, 08:03 PM
I agree with Kc. When people dig up old threads, going back months or sometimes years and claim it's instructional I don't really believe that. It's meant to say "see you're wrong - you were wrong then and you are now so shut up" I've never done it nor do I ever intend to. This a discussion forum not a college classroom or some formal commission where you can never change your mind or make a mistake or have an emotional moment.

This thread for instance is an example of the very common knee jerking that occurs when the team is on a bad streak. Same happens with a player who slumps or pitches a couple bad games. Suddenly he's worthless, a bum, untradeable, the worst at his position etc. In game threads it happens from at bat to at bat and inning to inning.

Lighten up! I come here to enjoy myself, talk Reds, have fun and interact with other Reds fans - not be critical or be criticized (at least not for things I said 3 or 4 years ago!)

Except for the lack of foul language our interaction toward each other has disintegrated lately and not in the best way. There are times I feel the Enquirer.com is friendlier! It didn't used to be like that and the odd thing to me is this is a winning season! I would think this would occur in a losing year.

I don't know maybe it's just me that feels those vibes. I know we've lost a lot of good members who no longer post or do so only infrequently. And this idea that "this is a message board after all you need to get a thicker skin" is BS. Civility and respect doesn't need to disappear because we don't see each other.

edabbs44
07-29-2012, 08:20 PM
I don't know maybe it's just me that feels those vibes. I know we've lost a lot of good members who no longer post or do so only infrequently. And this idea that "this is a message board after all you need to get a thicker skin" is BS. Civility and respect doesn't need to disappear because we don't see each other.

I feel like at least some of those good members left around the time the Reds started to show legitimate progress. Unsure if that was a coincidence or not, but it does seem like people have always had more to say on the negative side than the positive one. And it still seems applicable today.

WVRedsFan
07-29-2012, 08:36 PM
I agree with Kc. When people dig up old threads, going back months or sometimes years and claim it's instructional I don't really believe that. It's meant to say "see you're wrong - you were wrong then and you are now so shut up" I've never done it nor do I ever intend to. This a discussion forum not a college classroom or some formal commission where you can never change your mind or make a mistake or have an emotional moment.

This thread for instance is an example of the very common knee jerking that occurs when the team is on a bad streak. Same happens with a player who slumps or pitches a couple bad games. Suddenly he's worthless, a bum, untradeable, the worst at his position etc. In game threads it happens from at bat to at bat and inning to inning.

Lighten up! I come here to enjoy myself, talk Reds, have fun and interact with other Reds fans - not be critical or be criticized (at least not for things I said 3 or 4 years ago!)

Except for the lack of foul language our interaction toward each other has disintegrated lately and not in the best way. There are times I feel the Enquirer.com is friendlier! It didn't used to be like that and the odd thing to me is this is a winning season! I would think this would occur in a losing year.

I don't know maybe it's just me that feels those vibes. I know we've lost a lot of good members who no longer post or do so only infrequently. And this idea that "this is a message board after all you need to get a thicker skin" is BS. Civility and respect doesn't need to disappear because we don't see each other.

:thumbup:

smith288
07-29-2012, 08:37 PM
This also proves being negative as a fan effects the team in no way. :D

kaldaniels
07-29-2012, 09:01 PM
Anything I post is fair game to be brought back up. While I am not a saint all of the time, anytime I have a strong opinion, I usually preface it with something to the effect of "this is just my opinion" or "I know others may feel differently" or "I could be wrong" or my favorite, "I'm an idiot". I can't speak for everyone but alittle bit of humbleness goes a long way.

The only facts on this site are things that have already happened. What is going to happen is simply opinions. Some people present opinions as facts, and I personally take issue with that (though it probably doesn't faze many of you).

I don't think it is fair to have a debate when I'm throwing out things as opinions and they are countered with "facts", which are not actually facts. (Hopefully that makes sense). I rarely search the archives to pull something back up, but when I do, I truly do it so the other guy in the future isn't so strong-arming in his position.

jojo
07-29-2012, 09:14 PM
I think it's intuitively understood that offering an argument with reasons is offering a reasoned opinion (or at least it should be understood). Quite often there is an attempt to treat all opinions as equivalent when disagreements arise when in fact the most compelling argument is the strongest one and frankly should be treated as such.

edabbs44
07-29-2012, 09:20 PM
I think it's intuitively understood that offering an argument with reasons is offering a reasoned opinion (or at least it should be understood). Quite often there is an attempt to treat all opinions as equivalent when disagreements arise when in fact the most compelling argument is the strongest one and frankly should be treated as such.

I don't know. To be honest I get the feeling that the more statistical analysis is introduced into the argument, the less it feels as if the presenter is presenting an opinion.

jojo
07-29-2012, 09:23 PM
I don't know. To be honest I get the feeling that the more statistical analysis is introduced into the argument, the less it feels as if the presenter is presenting an opinion.

Well, it shouldn't. Stats are just different reasons.

cincyinco
07-29-2012, 10:38 PM
I personally feel that both sides make some good points, but I have to say I'm more with the crowd that thinks some folks should be called out. It's okay to be wrong. But there is a definitive tone around the Org in recent times that I don't feel existed so much in the past. Go read any number of game threads this year. Games are declared over after a few innings or being down a run. I can't count how many times I've read through a game thread after getting off work at midnight and seeing posts proclaiming the game was over... Only to have the Reds pull it out. In my opinion, these type of posts and threads like this one do nothing to elevate the level of discourse in the ORG. We are supposed to hold ourselves to a higher and enlightened level of discussion here. And the types of posts I'm talking about do nothing to accomplish this. It's Sun Deck level dreck. It's about time some folks were called out, because I see a lot of repeat offenders and it gets tiresome.

Act like you've been there before.. INDEED!

wolfboy
07-29-2012, 10:44 PM
I personally feel that both sides make some good points, but I have to say I'm more with the crowd that thinks some folks should be called out. It's okay to be wrong. But there is a definitive tone around the Org in recent times that I don't feel existed so much in the past. Go read any number of game threads this year. Games are declared over after a few innings or being down a run. I can't count how many times I've read through a game thread after getting off work at midnight and seeing posts proclaiming the game was over... Only to have the Reds pull it out. In my opinion, these type of posts and threads like this one do nothing to elevate the level of discourse in the ORG. We are supposed to hold ourselves to a higher and enlightened level of discussion here. And the types of posts I'm talking about do nothing to accomplish this. It's Sun Deck level dreck. It's about time some folks were called out, because I see a lot of repeat offenders and it gets tiresome.

Act like you've been there before.. INDEED!

I haven't read a game thread in years, but I remember the bar being pretty low. Sounds like that hasn't changed much. For those advocating calling people out, let me ask you this: how does it fix the problem you've identified?

cincyinco
07-29-2012, 10:54 PM
I haven't read a game thread in years, but I remember the bar being pretty low. Sounds like that hasn't changed much. For those advocating calling people out, let me ask you this: how does it fix the problem you've identified?

I'm not entirely,but maybe some self policing would elevate some of the conversation around here... Because if anything, IMO the quality of ORG posts has been steadily decliningover the past couple of years which, IMO, correlates with these types of negativeand unnecessary posts. All I'm asking for is some reason.. Apparently that's in short order more often these days. As I stated, we are supposed to have elevated and enlightened discussion in the ORG. It's why we are separate from the Sun Deck. Otherwise(merger not withstanding), what's the point?

mth123
07-29-2012, 10:59 PM
I'm not entirely,but maybe some self policing would elevate some of the conversation around here... Because if anything, IMO the quality of ORG posts has been steadily decliningover the past couple of years which, IMO, correlates with these types of negativeand unnecessary posts. All I'm asking for is some reason.. Apparently that's in short order more often these days. As I stated, we are supposed to have elevated and enlightened discussion in the ORG. It's why we are separate from the Sun Deck. Otherwise(merger not withstanding), what's the point?

Cluttering the board with a bunch of I told you so, in your face, my posts are better than your posts nonsense is going to elevate things?

Seems to be sinking to the lowest position yet.

edabbs44
07-29-2012, 11:03 PM
Cluttering the board with a bunch of I told you so, in your face, my posts are better than your posts nonsense is going to elevate things?

Seems to be sinking to the lowest position yet.

There being a looming threat of being called out on the board might make posters think twice before making certain comments.

cincyinco
07-29-2012, 11:10 PM
Cluttering the board with a bunch of I told you so, in your face, my posts are better than your posts nonsense is going to elevate things?

Seems to be sinking to the lowest position yet.

It's why I started my response with "im not entirely sure..". I dont have a solution mth, and I'm not calling anyone out specifically.. what I do know is the posts claiming the season over after 2 weeks, the posts claiming the game is over after 1 or 2 innings and giving up a run, do nothing to advance or further discussion, and add nothing of substance to what is supposed to ble the best of the best Reds message boards on the world wide interwebs. Again, we are the ORG. We are better than that. If you post I'm this forum, you should know better.

wolfboy
07-29-2012, 11:12 PM
I'm not entirely,but maybe some self policing would elevate some of the conversation around here... Because if anything, IMO the quality of ORG posts has been steadily decliningover the past couple of years which, IMO, correlates with these types of negativeand unnecessary posts. All I'm asking for is some reason.. Apparently that's in short order more often these days. As I stated, we are supposed to have elevated and enlightened discussion in the ORG. It's why we are separate from the Sun Deck. Otherwise(merger not withstanding), what's the point?

I don't disagree that the knee jerk threads add nothing to the conversation. I'd argue that dredging them up months later equally adds nothing. I strongly disagree that these threads are something new or unique. They've been around as long as this board. I say don't feed the trolls and if it gets to the level of beating a dead horse, take it to the mods because it's probably violating board rules at that point.

wolfboy
07-29-2012, 11:15 PM
There being a looming threat of being called out on the board might make posters think twice before making certain comments.

That result seems completely at odds with the notion that the same posters are doing this over and over. If that's the theory, it's not working. Moreover, even if you call someone out in July, I doubt it acts as a deterrent next April.

Also, if that's the goal, then bring this thread up next April when the next Chicken Little thread sprouts up, not after a ten game winning streak.

mth123
07-29-2012, 11:15 PM
There being a looming threat of being called out on the board might make posters think twice before making certain comments.

I don't see it. The threat of looking like a fool is already there. If people don't care enough to use some judgement now, I don't see calling them out changing anything except adding more bickering and lowering the quality of the board even more.

I know how to read. I know which posters do what and whose opinion to take with a huge grain of salt. I really don't need somebody creating a big rift in the board to point out something I can already see. It just seems like a way for the poster who is doing the calling out to feed his or her head with the "I was right and you were wrong" non-sense.

If the "I told you so" crowd is really concerned with educating and raising quality, send a PM to the posters who you think need educated.

cincyinco
07-29-2012, 11:19 PM
Nm

The Voice of IH
07-29-2012, 11:21 PM
In three or four years when Mike Leake is the ace of the staff I am going to bring up that thread and gloat. However, if he is not I'll say that I was misquoted!

mth123
07-29-2012, 11:24 PM
In three or four years when Mike Leake is the ace of the staff I am going to bring up that thread and gloat. However, if he is not I'll say that I was misquoted!

Mike Leake is one I was really wrong about. I'm sure everybody who cares remembers.

cincyinco
07-29-2012, 11:28 PM
One more thing to add, it's not so much about who's right or wrong, but how you are right or wrong. I've said it before, theres far too many opinion and emotion that's presented as absolutes. A lot of this could be solved simply by starting your thread with "I'm venting.." or "I know were only 2 weeks into the season and this may be premature but.." instead of simply proclaiming absolutely the season is done. Game over man! Again,we're supposed to be better than that.

wolfboy
07-29-2012, 11:29 PM
One more thing to add, it's not so much about who's right or wrong, but how you are right or wrong. I've said it before, theres far too many opinion and emotion that's presented as absolutes. A lot of this could be solved simply by starting your thread with "I'm venting.." or "I know were only 2 weeks into the season and this may be premature but.." instead of simply proclaiming absolutely the season is done. Game over man! Again,we're supposed to be better than that.

Good point.

jojo
07-29-2012, 11:40 PM
As someone who has been called out in the past for things I've never actually said or biases i dont actully hold, perhaps I'm biased. But it seems to me that calling out another poster is rarely intended as a teaching moment or motivated by a desire to raise the level of discourse.

Just an opinion based upon anecdotal observation.....

wolfboy
07-29-2012, 11:47 PM
As someone who has been called out in the past for things I've never actually said or biases i dont actully hold, perhaps I'm biased. But it seems to me that calling out another poster is rarely intended as a teaching moment or motivated by a desire to raise the level of discourse.

Just an opinion based upon anecdotal observation.....

I'm with you jojo.

The Voice of IH
07-29-2012, 11:47 PM
Mike Leake is one I was really wrong about. I'm sure everybody who cares remembers.

I was wrong about last year in general. I thought they would come back and at least compete.

Scrap Irony
07-29-2012, 11:50 PM
One more thing to add, it's not so much about who's right or wrong, but how you are right or wrong. I've said it before, theres far too many opinion and emotion that's presented as absolutes. A lot of this could be solved simply by starting your thread with "I'm venting.." or "I know were only 2 weeks into the season and this may be premature but.." instead of simply proclaiming absolutely the season is done. Game over man! Again,we're supposed to be better than that.

Amen.

I didn't bring this post back up, but if there's something for posters to learn (and work at NOT being), it's that idea of premature absolutes. Redszone is supposed to be a place where that doesn't happen. I've been here a decade-- it didn't happen at the beginning. Posters called you out. Period.

It wasn't considered juvenile or petty. You were simply wrong. That's the way it goes-- sometimes you beats da bear; sometimes, the bear eats you.

Heck, the running joke about selling or trading first-born children was a second-year Redszone opinion couched as a ridiculous assertion of fact. doug's claim about Zach Stewart and the Cy Young is almost three years old now. Still hear it now and again. (And it's still funny, too.)

They, like some of the posts on this thread, were extreme overreactions that deserved ridicule. (I've had some too, obviously. I remember one about Jason LaRue and never watching another Red game while he was catcher.)

And it is about learning, despite what others may think. And we don't often learn on our own, despite being adults, unless we're called on it. And this is ONE THREAD where something has been brought back-- hardly cluttering the boards. And, finally, if you don't like it, how hard is it to skip?

It seems some posters want all the respect and none of the responsibility. Fanatic or not, you gotta support what you say and not just your team.

If you don't like that, perhaps Redszone isn't for you.

Nathan
07-29-2012, 11:59 PM
Is it just me, or has this thread gone around in circles long enough? There is absolutely no give or take. And really, the whole issue is very trivial. Who cares who said what when? There comes a time when it is best to leave the past in the past. But, who am I? Carry on.

wolfboy
07-30-2012, 12:01 AM
If you don't like that, perhaps Redszone isn't for you.

Do you mind updating the "about us" section? Thanks.

Scrap Irony
07-30-2012, 12:13 AM
Do you mind updating the "about us" section? Thanks.

PM me if you have a problem with my post, but let's not do this in public, dear. It makes the children crazy.

wolfboy
07-30-2012, 12:18 AM
PM me if you have a problem with my post, but let's not do this in public, dear. It makes the children crazy.

Well played. I got one heck of a chuckle. :beerme:

jojo
07-30-2012, 12:20 AM
Fanatic or not, you gotta support what you say and not just your team.

If you don't like that, perhaps Redszone isn't for you.

I agree about sharing reasons for your opinions. But I'd rather use the ignore function than battle someone's recurring impulses.

cincyinco
07-30-2012, 12:29 AM
I agree about sharing reasons for your opinions. But I'd rather use the ignore function than battle someone's recurring impulses.

I never recall having to even worry about battling someone else's recurring impulse Or even using the ignore feature. These days they are common worries. Things have changed in the Org, and IMO not for the better. I am not here to call anyone out by name or offer a solution, i am simply making an observation.

nate
07-30-2012, 12:34 AM
There being a looming threat of being called out on the board might make posters think twice before making certain comments.

Or not posting at all.

RedlegJake
07-30-2012, 01:50 AM
Or not posting at all.

You know what, maybe that isn't a bad solution after all

edabbs44
07-30-2012, 08:01 AM
Or not posting at all.

Or just getting rid of their Internet access altogether.

nate
07-30-2012, 10:43 AM
Or just getting rid of their Internet access altogether.

Mock if you must but I think the idea of offering open-season narcoposting to facilitate "I told you so!" has a high likelihood of turning off folks from posting.

Plus Plus
07-30-2012, 10:45 AM
Mock if you must but I think the idea of offering open-season narcoposting to facilitate "I told you so!" has a high likelihood of turning off folks from posting.

I agree.

Scrap Irony
07-30-2012, 11:18 AM
Mock if you must but I think the idea of offering open-season narcoposting to facilitate "I told you so!" has a high likelihood of turning off folks from posting.

Perhaps. And, with some posters, that wouldn't be a bad thing. Otherwise, you get what's at every other sports site across the internet. And, with wise moderation and high expectations prevalent, you get 20 SunDeck threads on Dusty's toothpick and vet love.

There's a balance.

This is one thread. One. It's not like there's been an avalanche of old threads rearing their ugly heads. And it makes a prescient point as well, worthy of discussion.

The Chicken Little response of certain board doom is ironic, though.

kaldaniels
07-30-2012, 11:33 AM
If we are discussing the pitching staff today, and I say "Walt has done a terrible job building this staff for the playoffs, the lack of aces will cause us to get swept in the first round again", I don't see why a post like that (which we see on an occasional basis) should not be brought back up if and when the Reds win a game in the playoffs.

As stated above, there is a balance. I will certainly admit, bringing up old posts does have a bit of a "childish" nature to it. But for those decrying rehashing old posts, is it not fair to also target posts like I have written aboven as not contributing to the board's success.

Unfortunately posts like the above are usually posted with no consequences. And while everyone is different in their tastes, I dislike the above sort of post way more than I dislike people bringing up old posts.

Boss-Hog
07-30-2012, 11:39 AM
I agree.

I'm not going to institute a rule that old prediction threads are forbidden from being brought up, but I do find it juvenile to do unless your track record is 100% spotless - and no one's is. IMO, it's not offering learning opportunities: it just makes for a more divisive forum that may make people reluctant to post for fear of this happening.

Just my two cents.

wolfboy
07-30-2012, 11:44 AM
If we are discussing the pitching staff today, and I say "Walt has done a terrible job building this staff for the playoffs, the lack of aces will cause us to get swept in the first round again", I don't see why a post like that (which we see on an occasional basis) should not be brought back up if and when the Reds win a game in the playoffs.

As stated above, there is a balance. I will certainly admit, bringing up old posts does have a bit of a "childish" nature to it. But for those decrying rehashing old posts, is it not fair to also target posts like I have written aboven as not contributing to the board's success.

Unfortunately posts like the above are usually posted with no consequences. And while everyone is different in their tastes, I dislike the above sort of post way more than I dislike people bringing up old posts.

I agree that the original posts should be addressed. In fact, they usually are. Page through the early part of this thread. The silliness of the thread was pointed out ad nauseum. People who were wrong were told they were wrong. It's not like the thread was met with silence. My issue is that I fail to see what is added by bringing it back up months later other than bringing a bad thread back to life.

REDREAD
07-30-2012, 11:49 AM
The damage is that some posters may feel reluctant to post if they know that their old posts are being trumpeted around when they are wrong. So this type of thing serves to quell discussion and free expression.
.

Yep.. I'm not saying I am perfect, but the atmosphere of this board is one reason why it's a lot less active than in past years.
Here we are, one of the best records in baseball, and the activity level is comparable to the 2005 offseason.. Lots of people that used to actively post now either have left or only lurk.

M2
07-30-2012, 11:59 AM
Mock if you must but I think the idea of offering open-season narcoposting to facilitate "I told you so!" has a high likelihood of turning off folks from posting.

Especially those seeking to channel a free flow of knuckleheadedness. If fear of being reminded just how ranks your brain farts are prevents you from posting some of your brain farts, I'm for it.

Kc61
07-30-2012, 12:03 PM
If we are discussing the pitching staff today, and I say "Walt has done a terrible job building this staff for the playoffs, the lack of aces will cause us to get swept in the first round again", I don't see why a post like that (which we see on an occasional basis) should not be brought back up if and when the Reds win a game in the playoffs.

.

Kal, let's say someone made that comment about Walt and the pitching.

What harm was caused by it?
What damage to baseball, the Board, or the world?
Why does the person have to be called out?
Simply express your different view in a post. That's your remedy.

If someone is rude or unpleasant or disrespectful, yes, they should be spoken with by the appropriate moderator or whomever.

But there is no reason to throw back in anyone's face his or her incorrect post, even if it turned out to be seriously incorrect. The only reason is to give some people a feeling of superiority or to have fun at others' expense.

Let's talk about baseball on here. If someone is wrong, forget it, as long as they conduct themselves in a proper way.

Screwball
07-30-2012, 12:03 PM
I'm not going to institute a rule that old prediction threads are forbidden from being brought up, but I do find it juvenile to do unless your track record is 100% spotless - and no one's is. IMO, it's not offering learning opportunities: it just makes for a more divisive forum that may make people reluctant to post for fear of this happening.

Just my two cents.

But that's just it. This isn't about being right or wrong and then having said predictions shoved in your face. It's about the way said opinions are expressed. Kaldaniels gave a perfect example above.

I highly doubt anybody is going to be combing threads looking for ways to say "I told you so!" if such predictions are made with a little humility. But when you start a thread with such offiicious arrogance that the Reds are absolutely terrible (one poster actually said we should "gut" the team, lol), and then come to find a couple months later that statement is dead wrong, well, should we really be surprised it was revisited afterwards?

Kc61
07-30-2012, 12:07 PM
But that's just it. This isn't about being right or wrong and then having said predictions shoved in your face. It's about the way said opinions are expressed. Kaldaniels gave a perfect example above.

I highly doubt anybody is going to be combing threads looking for ways to say "I told you so!" if such predictions are made with a little humility. But when you start a thread with such offiicious arrogance that the Reds are absolutely terrible (one poster actually thought we should "gut" the team, lol), and then come to find a couple months later that statement is dead wrong, well, should we really be surprised it was revisited afterwards?

If someone says "The Reds are in serious trouble"and you think it is absurd, then simply post -- "I disagree. It is premature to reach that conclusion. The Reds will be fine."

That's the way to handle it. Not to dredge up threads months later.

M2
07-30-2012, 12:15 PM
My issue is that I fail to see what is added by bringing it back up months later other than bringing a bad thread back to life.

You literally could argue that point with every post and every thread. I fail to see what's added with the endless offseason dives down the WAR rabbit hole (world's worst evaluation tool). So I choose not to slam my head against that particular wall, knowing it will crumble once actual games get played.

As for this thread, sometimes people post exceptionally goofy stuff. And sometimes they get reminded of it. It happens. I actually respect those who can take it with a mea culpa and some good humor. Not so much for those who don't ever want to have their, sometimes voluminous, sketchy takes brought back up and who get pissy about it when it happens.

wolfboy
07-30-2012, 12:15 PM
But that's just it. This isn't about being right or wrong and then having said predictions shoved in your face. It's about the way said opinions are expressed. Kaldaniels gave a perfect example above.

I highly doubt anybody is going to be combing threads looking for ways to say "I told you so!" if such predictions are made with a little humility. But when you start a thread with such offiicious arrogance that the Reds are absolutely terrible (one poster actually thought we should "gut" the team, lol), and then come to find a couple months later that statement is dead wrong, well, should we really be surprised it was revisited afterwards?

Let's not kid ourselves into thinking this is limited to "Reds are terrible" threads: http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=96136 I'm glad doug has thick skin because I think every opinion he ever offered on a prospect was called into question in that thread. For what purpose?

Also, as I mentioned before, when posters make threads like the one Kaldaniels referenced, they are addressed at the time they're made. What purpose does it serve to bring it back up months later?

Screwball
07-30-2012, 12:16 PM
If someone says "The Reds are in serious trouble"and you think it is absurd, then simply post -- "I disagree. It is premature to reach that conclusion. The Reds will be fine."


And several posters did exactly that.



That's the way to handle it. Not to dredge up threads months later.

Why not? Are we that scared of hurting someone's feelings when they're unbelieveably wrong, yet still managed to arrogantly post at the time, "this isn't that hard"?

Maybe next time that poster (and others that followed suit) will craft their argument a little more carefully. And if enough do that, maybe the entire board will be a little more bearable to follow.

Mario-Rijo
07-30-2012, 12:18 PM
If someone says "The Reds are in serious trouble"and you think it is absurd, then simply post -- "I disagree. It is premature to reach that conclusion. The Reds will be fine."

That's the way to handle it. Not to dredge up threads months later.

To each his own right? I usually refrain from dredging things up only because I know others despise it. But frankly I really want to at times. Not because I am looking to pile on a poster for being wrong it's because he is often wrong for it (or often wrong in his approach to it) and he needs a reminder that he isn't all knowing. And I really don't care if folks do it to me because I am happy to learn from it rather than being ignored completely. Tell me what is really worse, having folks bring you back to reality from time to time or having them ignore most of what you say so you don't even feel like you are part of the discussion any longer?

westofyou
07-30-2012, 12:22 PM
Grandpa said.... If you swing it around all the time expect someone to make a comment on it.

Chip R
07-30-2012, 12:22 PM
This thread should be on non-baseball since it's just turned into, "I was right and you were wrong."

kaldaniels
07-30-2012, 12:22 PM
I'm personally waiting to get hammered by some on my "I'm not sold on the Pirates" thread (started in 2010, but I've followed up on it) It's coming, and if I get nailed on it at the end of the season, I'll take my medicine.

But without me even looking back at that thread, go read how I expressed my opinions in that thread, as I believe I constantly did so in a respectful way, both to other posters, and the Pirates as well. Again, I am not always a saint, but when you bring a strong opinion you need to know where you are and know what is coming if you don't back it up and are wrong.

edabbs44
07-30-2012, 12:22 PM
If someone says "The Reds are in serious trouble"and you think it is absurd, then simply post -- "I disagree. It is premature to reach that conclusion. The Reds will be fine."

That's the way to handle it. Not to dredge up threads months later.

There are certain people on this board who still harbor ill will towards Keith Law because of things he said about Harang and Billy Hamilton. If that can be used against him years later, why can't a similarly "incorrect" statement be used in the context of certain discussions here? If someone on the board told us that Cueto was a middle of the rotation starter, Jocketty should be fired and that Ludwick should have been cut in May, why can't that be mentioned the next time they make a similarly bold and definitive declaration?

kaldaniels
07-30-2012, 12:23 PM
Grandpa said.... If you swing it around all the time expect someone to make a comment on it.

:lol:

wolfboy
07-30-2012, 12:31 PM
Not so much for those who don't ever want to have their, sometimes voluminous, sketchy takes brought back up and who get pissy about it when it happens.

Not sure if you're referring to me, but I was not amongst the chicken little crowd in this thread. I think it's bad for the board and I've given my reasons for that conclusion. This isn't about me being "pissy."

Mario-Rijo
07-30-2012, 12:33 PM
To each his own right? I usually refrain from dredging things up only because I know others despise it. But frankly I really want to at times. Not because I am looking to pile on a poster for being wrong it's because he is often wrong for it (or often wrong in his approach to it) and he needs a reminder that he isn't all knowing. And I really don't care if folks do it to me because I am happy to learn from it rather than being ignored completely. Tell me what is really worse, having folks bring you back to reality from time to time or having them ignore most of what you say so you don't even feel like you are part of the discussion any longer?

I'll add to this it almost never gets brought up unless someone consistently posts things that they need reminding of. Someone who is wrong now and again rarely gets anything brought back up.

jojo
07-30-2012, 12:35 PM
You literally could argue that point with every post and every thread. I fail to see what's added with the endless offseason dives down the WAR rabbit hole (world's worst evaluation tool). So I choose not to slam my head against that particular wall, knowing it will crumble once actual games get played.

As for this thread, sometimes people post exceptionally goofy stuff. And sometimes they get reminded of it. It happens. I actually respect those who can take it with a mea culpa and some good humor. Not so much for those who don't ever want to have their, sometimes voluminous, sketchy takes brought back up and who get pissy about it when it happens.

When did WAR get discredited by game results?

Sea Ray
07-30-2012, 12:38 PM
I'm not going to institute a rule that old prediction threads are forbidden from being brought up, but I do find it juvenile to do unless your track record is 100% spotless - and no one's is. IMO, it's not offering learning opportunities: it just makes for a more divisive forum that may make people reluctant to post for fear of this happening.

Just my two cents.

Well I'm glad you feel that way because it'd be nutty to do. Most sports debates concern what will happen in the future thus the final chapter isn't written until much later. In other words, time determines who was right, not some stat from Baseball Prospectus. If you're debating whether the Reds should trade Barry Larkin or Kurt Stillwell in 1987, the debate isn't settled until years later. There's nothing wrong with sorting out who was most perspicatious.

M2
07-30-2012, 12:48 PM
Not sure if you're referring to me, but I was not amongst the chicken little crowd in this thread. I think it's bad for the board and I've given my reasons for that conclusion. This isn't about me being "pissy."

I wasn't referring to you.

pedro
07-30-2012, 12:51 PM
I thought the Reds should trade Votto back in 2007. I remember arguing quite forcefully that he'd never hit lefties.

That worked out great.

M2
07-30-2012, 01:04 PM
When did WAR get discredited by game results?

When the ham-handed attempts to use it to project player performance and team needs turned out to be drivel. Honestly, offseason discussions tend to devolve into WAR recitations with all the depth and insight of "... but Brawndo is what plants crave." I find it to be unreadable, pointless nonsense. It adds nothing and it turns threads into a gigantic waste of time.

However I'm also aware some people dig that sort of thing, so flaggelate away with the WAR. I don't expect my distaste for shoddy statistical analysis to dictate what others do.

In that same vein, if you don't like it when outrageously misguided takes get dredged up, then recognize not every post in every thread is here to serve you and move on.

VR
07-30-2012, 01:45 PM
I thought the board used to have a rule where you were required to bet your first born when making bold predictions?

edabbs44
07-30-2012, 01:46 PM
I thought the Reds should trade Votto back in 2007. I remember arguing quite forcefully that he'd never hit lefties.

That worked out great.

Pre-me joining the board, I was livid when they drafted him. Livid.

Screwball
07-30-2012, 01:49 PM
Let's not kid ourselves into thinking this is limited to "Reds are terrible" threads: http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=96136 I'm glad doug has thick skin because I think every opinion he ever offered on a prospect was called into question in that thread. For what purpose?


To have your opinion(s) thrown back at you, you essentially need to do two things:

1.) Be fantastically wrong.
2.) Act like a know-it-all while being fantastically wrong.

I'm glad he has thick skin too, because when you meet the above criteria, you're gonna need it.

wolfboy
07-30-2012, 01:49 PM
I thought the board used to have a rule where you were required to bet your first born when making bold predictions?

I see nothing bold about predicting Jimmy Haynes wouldn't reach 14 wins. :D

M2
07-30-2012, 01:59 PM
To have your opinion(s) thrown back at you, you essentially need to do two things:

1.) Be fantastically wrong.
2.) Act like a know-it-all while being fantastically wrong.

I'm glad he has thick skin too, because when you meet the above criteria, you're gonna need it.

And 3) You probably don't want to dredge up your previous fantastically wrong, act-like-a-know-it-all takes like you never typed them while trying to browbeat another poster. Bad form.

RedlegJake
07-30-2012, 02:14 PM
Kal, let's say someone made that comment about Walt and the pitching.

What harm was caused by it?
What damage to baseball, the Board, or the world?
Why does the person have to be called out?
Simply express your different view in a post. That's your remedy.

If someone is rude or unpleasant or disrespectful, yes, they should be spoken with by the appropriate moderator or whomever.

But there is no reason to throw back in anyone's face his or her incorrect post, even if it turned out to be seriously incorrect. The only reason is to give some people a feeling of superiority or to have fun at others' expense.

Let's talk about baseball on here. If someone is wrong, forget it, as long as they conduct themselves in a proper way.

Absolutely! :thumbup:

traderumor
07-30-2012, 02:15 PM
My 95 win prediction is still in play :p

jojo
07-30-2012, 02:23 PM
When the ham-handed attempts to use it to project player performance and team needs turned out to be drivel.

Honestly, offseason discussions tend to devolve into WAR recitations with all the depth and insight of "... but Brawndo is what plants crave." I find it to be unreadable, pointless nonsense. It adds nothing and it turns threads into a gigantic waste of time.

However I'm also aware some people dig that sort of thing, so flaggelate away with the WAR. I don't expect my distaste for shoddy statistical analysis to dictate what others do.

In that same vein, if you don't like it when outrageously misguided takes get dredged up, then recognize not every post in every thread is here to serve you and move on.

Jeeps....somebody's puppy was apparently ran over by WAR.

While we disagree about WAR and my reasons for not agreeing with your position on it's validity and usefulness are well documented in the archives so there is no reason to recapitulate discussions that largely have been settled already, I do agree with this sentiment:

Not every post in every thread is here to serve every poster and those inclined to lower the level of discourse in response probably should move on.

jojo
07-30-2012, 02:49 PM
I thought the Reds should trade Votto back in 2007. I remember arguing quite forcefully that he'd never hit lefties.

That worked out great.

If you'd have forcefully argued in '06-'07ish time period that Votto was destined to average 7 WAR a season at his peak and might even post a 9-10 WAR season, you would've been one of the most optimistic people in the building and probably would've been holding a pie.... ;)

HD Vonage Welcome to the Neighborhood Commercial - Don't Get Bundled (We All Bundle) - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2T8_4s3Y4jk)

M2
07-30-2012, 02:57 PM
Jeeps....somebody's puppy was apparently ran over by WAR.

No, but this board has been hit with a shoddy bomb. Side note, I'm pro letting in the Sun Deck. I mean, why not?


So while there is no reason to recapitulate discussions that largely have been settled ...

Well, if you want to call not bothering with tedious people "settled," then I suppose it's settled.


Not every post is every thread is here to serve every poster and those inclined to lower the level of discourse in response probably should move on.

Yeah, wouldn't want to undermine the high level of discourse taking place. Once upon a time it certainly seemed like posters here held themselves accountable for the things they posted. I suppose part of it was the group was small enough that the institutional memory would kick in if you declared something crazy like Josh Thigpen was going to have a Hall of Fame career. We cared if a given line of argument turned out to be correct. It was like outcomes mattered too, not just endless, pointless invective.

I can understand the plea for institutional amnesia these days. I often want to forget what I've read the instant I've read it.

jojo
07-30-2012, 03:32 PM
Once upon a time it certainly seemed like posters here held themselves accountable for the things they posted. I suppose part of it was the group was small enough that the institutional memory would kick in if you declared something crazy like Josh Thigpen was going to have a Hall of Fame career. We cared if a given line of argument turned out to be correct. It was like outcomes mattered too, not just endless, pointless invective.

I can understand the plea for institutional amnesia these days. I often want to forget what I've read the instant I've read it.

Who in this thread has argued that posters shouldn't own their opinions? Who has argued for a standard that doesn't value the reasons for an opinion and ultimately the veracity of an argument (isn't that the whole point of asking for the reasons behind an opinion so that the opinion can be reasonable judged)? People should expect that posting to the ORG might result in having their opinion questioned and they may have to be able to back it up. That's a different issue than adopting a standard where "calling out posters", commonly understood as often being associated with passive aggressive behavior or motivated by desires other than promoting discussion, is the norm.

Opening the ORG to more sundeckers who bring fresh voices, different views and new personalities to the board? Sure! I'm on board and would argue doing so is an important part of maintaining the great place Boss and Gik created. Giving reasons for one's opinions and owning one's arguments regardless of how they stand the test of time? Again, sure. It's a standard articulated by Boss and GIK in the ORG's mission statement. Also, I'd think it's intuitive that searchable archives confer consequences for saying anything about anything without any real reason. When relevent, it's kosher IMHO, to question the basis of an argument by citing past statements. The archives are a GREAT thing. Rarely however, have I seen it done appropriately or even legitimately.

But encouraging passive aggressive behavior and posts that lend themselves more to direct personal attacks than discussion? Nah, that's thread poison and regardless of the different standards each of us might apply to the current voting process, all of us undoubetly agree on this-ORG members should be better than that.

Scrap Irony
07-30-2012, 05:19 PM
Who in this thread has argued that posters shouldn't own their opinions? Who has argued for a standard that doesn't value the reasons for an opinion and ultimately the veracity of an argument (isn't that the whole point of asking for the reasons behind an opinion so that the opinion can be reasonable judged)? People should expect that posting to the ORG might result in having their opinion questioned and they may have to be able to back it up. That's a different issue than adopting a standard where "calling out posters", commonly understood as often being associated with passive aggressive behavior or motivated by desires other than promoting discussion, is the norm.

It's not "calling out posters" so much as establishing a track record.

We determine who we trust, who we hang out with, who we become friends with, via what they've done in the past. Why not hold posters to the same standard?

M2
07-30-2012, 05:35 PM
We determine who we trust, who we hang out with, who we become friends with, via what they've done in the past. Why not hold posters to the same standard?

Exactly.

M2
07-30-2012, 05:49 PM
But encouraging passive aggressive behavior and posts that lend themselves more to direct personal attacks than discussion? Nah, that's thread poison and regardless of the different standards each of us might apply to the current voting process, all of us undoubetly agree on this-ORG members should be better than that.

Couldn't disagree more. You thread poison is what I call much needed, sorely missed accountability for posters who think they have the right to be inane (which some of us consider a far more prevalent form of thread poison).

Puffy
07-30-2012, 05:49 PM
No, but this board has been hit with a shoddy bomb. Side note, I'm pro letting in the Sun Deck. I mean, why not?



Well, if you want to call not bothering with tedious people "settled," then I suppose it's settled.



Yeah, wouldn't want to undermine the high level of discourse taking place. Once upon a time it certainly seemed like posters here held themselves accountable for the things they posted. I suppose part of it was the group was small enough that the institutional memory would kick in if you declared something crazy like Josh Thigpen was going to have a Hall of Fame career. We cared if a given line of argument turned out to be correct. It was like outcomes mattered too, not just endless, pointless invective.

I can understand the plea for institutional amnesia these days. I often want to forget what I've read the instant I've read it.

Would you like to have a bromance with me??

:luvu:

dougdirt
07-30-2012, 05:52 PM
It's not "calling out posters" so much as establishing a track record.

We determine who we trust, who we hang out with, who we become friends with, via what they've done in the past. Why not hold posters to the same standard?

You don't need to call someone out publicly in order to establish your own track record for that person. You call them out because you wanted to tell them they were wrong, not because you think they don't have a good track record.

Puffy
07-30-2012, 05:54 PM
It's not "calling out posters" so much as establishing a track record.

We determine who we trust, who we hang out with, who we become friends with, via what they've done in the past. Why not hold posters to the same standard?

When we first started this place Dave (RFS62) always used to call us "like a great little sportsbar" where we laugh, disagree, talk good sports and mostly, generally, like each other.

This ain't that place no more. And one reason is there is no accountability, IMO.

M2
07-30-2012, 05:57 PM
Would you like to have a bromance with me??

:luvu:

Whatever happened to those yes/no pics of CBus? This was the perfect moment for that.

wolfboy
07-30-2012, 06:00 PM
This ain't that place no more. And one reason is there is no accountability, IMO.

I don't disagree with what you're saying, but is the solution to accountability really to dredge up every old post where someone got something wrong? I've been here for a long time and I don't ever remember that being a part of the fabric of what this place is.

Tom Servo
07-30-2012, 06:03 PM
I feel as thought it's some extreme hyperbole to suggest that 'every old post where someone got something wrong' is topped or 'dredged up'.

wolfboy
07-30-2012, 06:06 PM
I feel as thought it's some extreme hyperbole to suggest that 'every old post where someone got something wrong' is topped or 'dredged up'.

Fair enough, although, in the case I brought up earlier with doug, I disagree that it's extreme hyperbole. That's pretty much what happened.

Puffy
07-30-2012, 06:07 PM
I don't disagree with what you're saying, but is the solution to accountability really to dredge up every old post where someone got something wrong? I've been here for a long time and I don't ever remember that being a part of the fabric of what this place is.

Nah, I agree with you. But there has to be some happy medium.

And M2 - I think Chipster still has those Cbus pictures.

Brutus
07-30-2012, 06:09 PM
When we first started this place Dave (RFS62) always used to call us "like a great little sportsbar" where we laugh, disagree, talk good sports and mostly, generally, like each other.

This ain't that place no more. And one reason is there is no accountability, IMO.

That's going to be true with any community that gets bigger. Just like when a town of 20,000 grows into a 100,000+ city. You're going to have more crime and people aren't going to know one another as well.

I don't know why people are surprised that the ORG isn't as cozy as it once was. It's grown. Anyone who thought it would be as tidy as it used to be was kidding one's self. That doesn't mean there shouldn't continue to be the same standards and rules of engagement in place, but it naturally was going to degrade a bit over time.

What you're describing though, that's not an accountability issue. Among friends, accountability isn't needed if it's just guys talking at a bar. There shouldn't need to be accountability on a message board. While I believe in backing up one's opinions from the get-go, this isn't a science fair. Treating it like one is part of the problem, not part of the solution.

M2
07-30-2012, 06:12 PM
I feel as thought it's some extreme hyperbole to suggest that 'every old post where someone got something wrong' is topped or 'dredged up'.

Exactly. Dredging up old posts hardly constitutes the local epidemic.

Boss-Hog
07-30-2012, 06:16 PM
That's going to be true with any community that gets bigger. Just like when a town of 20,000 grows into a 100,000+ city. You're going to have more crime and people aren't going to know one another as well.

I don't know why people are surprised that the ORG isn't as cozy as it once was. It's grown. Anyone who thought it would be as tidy as it used to be was kidding one's self. That doesn't mean there shouldn't continue to be the same standards and rules of engagement in place, but it naturally was going to degrade a bit over time.

What you're describing though, that's not an accountability issue. Among friends, accountability isn't needed if it's just guys talking at a bar. There shouldn't need to be accountability on a message board. While I believe in backing up one's opinions from the get-go, this isn't a science fair. Treating it like one is part of the problem, not part of the solution.
Exactly - I remember the 'glory days' of this site and I remember them well. Short of restricting new members from joining, which was never a potential option, I'm not sure what those pining for the good old days wanted us (GIK and I) to do. There are certainly things (and posters) I miss about how the site was years ago, but I also feel other things have made for an improved user experience.

jojo
07-30-2012, 06:20 PM
It's not "calling out posters" so much as establishing a track record.

We determine who we trust, who we hang out with, who we become friends with, via what they've done in the past. Why not hold posters to the same standard?

I guess I don't see how posters aren't being held to that standard during normal discussion. For instance, Flyer used the poor start as a vehicle to argue that he disagreed with the direction the FO has taken concerning roster building and plenty of people weighed in on his argument. Has "he been held accountable" for his argument? Well its in the archives and there were roughly 17 pages of comments before the thread was bumped last week.... There's been roughly 10 pages of metacommentary since the bump.

And that's the danger. Attempts at gotcha moments (or "calling out a poster using hindsight" which is a different thing than asking for a person's work to be shown in realtime), IMHO, too easily become metacommentary and very often become much more about a poster rather than commentary about a position. And if this board suffers from anything, it suffers from a penchant for people to want to discuss a poster rather than a post. It's the ultimate thread poison.

Reasonable people can probably disagree about this but it would take alot of convincing to cause a position shift on this issue for me.

Kc61
07-30-2012, 06:23 PM
Why not? Are we that scared of hurting someone's feelings when they're unbelieveably wrong, yet still managed to arrogantly post at the time, "this isn't that hard"?

.

Yes. We should all be scared of hurting someone's feelings. Even if the person was a bit aggressive in posting an opinion.

kaldaniels
07-30-2012, 06:28 PM
I'll throw this one out...

There's a guy posting rumored trades in the trade thread right now.

Yet I could swear it was the same guy who said he had a source that Votto would never sign a long term deal.

I could be wrong on the facts so I'm not naming anyone, but to me thats a case where you consider bringing up an old post.

Scrap Irony
07-30-2012, 06:29 PM
Among friends, accountability isn't needed if it's just guys talking at a bar. There shouldn't need to be accountability on a message board. While I believe in backing up one's opinions from the get-go, this isn't a science fair. Treating it like one is part of the problem, not part of the solution.

We disagree fundamentally, then, about discourse, friendship, and especially accountability. Everyone should be accountable in all things they do, whether it's at a bar, in a sports message board, or elsewhere. We don't get to be friends without it.

In the Old Days, we were at least friendly with each other because no one played the arrogance, faux expert card. Today, you can't go five posts without someone doing so. Then, when they're called on it, they insist it's "childish" or "juvenile" to actually expect them to tow the line as to their claims. (One poster I try never to name calls it the "gotcha" game.)

But what he doesn't understand (or chooses to ignore) is that playing "gotcha" means you've screwed up. There's an error there.

In another board, I made a (I thought) good-natured bet with another poster. (I'm not sure who it was, honestly.) That poster lost. Instead of playing along with the bet (which was, IIRC, a two-week sig bet), he chose to ignore it, then, when called on it, got mad, made some inane "we didn't shake hands" claim, and went on about his business.

That not "friendly" at all. And that guy should be held accountable.

It has nothing to do with sabermetrician or scouting, Coke or Pepsi, conservative or liberal. It has to do with backing up your claim, having the integrity to admit you're wrong, and being willing to think about the game rather than shout from the rooftops how Teh DuZzty is teh sUk.

Boss-Hog
07-30-2012, 06:30 PM
I'll throw this one out...

There's a guy posting rumored trades in the trade thread right now.

Yet I could swear it was the same guy who said he had a source that Votto would never sign a long term deal.

I could be wrong on the facts so I'm not naming anyone, but to me thats a case where you consider bringing up an old post.
In that case, when it concerns how credible someone is based on their past "insider information", I agree with you.

mdccclxix
07-30-2012, 06:32 PM
What's wrong with laughing at yourself? If you've been called out by one of these posts, just admit you were wrong and provide the satisfaction for the situation, petty or not. What's the risk? Like others have said, this isn't a big problem. OTOH, some posters are more "enjoyable" to catch than others, and they tend to be the ones that don't like to budge during an argument, and often like to draw others into disagreement. So be it. In these cases, the board polices itself. No one's getting banned and no one's getting laughed off the board either.

Scrap Irony
07-30-2012, 06:34 PM
Yes. We should all be scared of hurting someone's feelings. Even if the person was a bit aggressive in posting an opinion.

Really?

I'd prefer the truth.

It's the Socratian gadfly in me.

fearofpopvol1
07-30-2012, 06:37 PM
What's wrong with laughing at yourself? If you've been called out by one of these posts, just admit you were wrong and provide the satisfaction for the situation, petty or not. What's the risk? Like others have said, this isn't a big problem. OTOH, some posters are more "enjoyable" to catch than others, and they tend to be the ones that don't like to budge during an argument, and often like to draw others into disagreement. So be it. In these cases, the board polices itself. No one's getting banned and no one's getting laughed off the board either.

I agree 100% with this post.

wolfboy
07-30-2012, 06:39 PM
What's wrong with laughing at yourself? If you've been called out by one of these posts, just admit you were wrong and provide the satisfaction for the situation, petty or not. What's the risk? Like others have said, this isn't a big problem. OTOH, some posters are more "enjoyable" to catch than others, and they tend to be the ones that don't like to budge during an argument, and often like to draw others into disagreement. So be it. In these cases, the board polices itself. No one's getting banned and no one's getting laughed off the board either.

I like laughing at ourselves. It's healthy. The problem is when it regresses into a bunch of name calling. That's what I initially pointed out as a problem in this thread. I even had a good chuckle at the annual chicken littlers.

wolfboy
07-30-2012, 06:39 PM
Really?

I'd prefer the truth.

It's the Socratian gadfly in me.

They aren't mutually exclusive.

Scrap Irony
07-30-2012, 06:41 PM
They aren't mutually exclusive.

You're right.

However, if given the choice, screw niceties. I'm playing Mulder and Scully.

Brutus
07-30-2012, 06:41 PM
We disagree fundamentally, then, about discourse, friendship, and especially accountability. Everyone should be accountable in all things they do, whether it's at a bar, in a sports message board, or elsewhere. We don't get to be friends without it.

In the Old Days, we were at least friendly with each other because no one played the arrogance, faux expert card. Today, you can't go five posts without someone doing so. Then, when they're called on it, they insist it's "childish" or "juvenile" to actually expect them to tow the line as to their claims. (One poster I try never to name calls it the "gotcha" game.)

But what he doesn't understand (or chooses to ignore) is that playing "gotcha" means you've screwed up. There's an error there.

In another board, I made a (I thought) good-natured bet with another poster. (I'm not sure who it was, honestly.) That poster lost. Instead of playing along with the bet (which was, IIRC, a two-week sig bet), he chose to ignore it, then, when called on it, got mad, made some inane "we didn't shake hands" claim, and went on about his business.

That not "friendly" at all. And that guy should be held accountable.

It has nothing to do with sabermetrician or scouting, Coke or Pepsi, conservative or liberal. It has to do with backing up your claim, having the integrity to admit you're wrong, and being willing to think about the game rather than shout from the rooftops how Teh DuZzty is teh sUk.

This kind of post is exactly the type of behavior that is only sinking the board further and further down.

It's a post clearly meant to dredge up the past. I don't mind telling people you're passively aggressively referring to me. And you know darn well no bet was agreed upon. Discussed? Yes. Agreed upon? No. And the thing is, you say you're only interested in people admitting they're wrong. Well guess what? I admitted I was wrong about that despite the fact we didn't actually agree on a bet. So if all you're concerned with is making sure people know they are wrong, then why are you so concerned with a bet that was never made?

And bringing it up now, trying to disguise it as some random person but with clear intentions to instigate is obvious why there is no justification for what you're describing. You don't care about learning experiences or teaching people the err of their ways. You're only playing the "gotcha" card. Clear as it was then, it is with this sort of response. That's really what this is about.

wolfboy
07-30-2012, 06:43 PM
You're right.

However, if given the choice, screw niceties. I'm playing Mulder and Scully.

I swear man, we might have a difference of opinion here, but you're aces on keeping me laughing through the conversation. :beerme:

jojo
07-30-2012, 06:44 PM
It's pretty simple. Just making a flippin' argument and let the archives speak for themselves. I love the archives and actually wish they were more searchable. Those who don't spend alot of time there are really missing out on one of the greatest parts of redszone.

But if someone wants to mine the archives to call out an individual, than by all means, discuss it if it is actually relevent. But lets not pretend we have a right to drop stink bombs for the sake of community.

Plus Plus
07-30-2012, 06:47 PM
Really?

I'd prefer the truth.

It's the Socratian gadfly in me.

But the truth can take a lot of forms.

As a music teacher, I can tell a student that they need to practice more by telling them:

a) "You obviously haven't been practicing. Stop wasting my time. Quit while you're behind, or stand up and show dedication."

or

b) "Ok, try this part again- now play it again more slowly. See how much better it sounds? Now, when you're at home, make sure that you are practicing slowly- everyone has time to practice for 20 minutes a day."

One might make the student quit playing music, one might encourage the student to play more. Isn't that what the real debate should be here? We want as much discourse on RZ as possible...

Plus Plus
07-30-2012, 06:49 PM
You're right.

However, if given the choice, screw niceties. I'm playing Mulder and Scully.

I don't have a problem with people playing Mulder and Scully.

I do have a problem with people playing King Ferdinand II and the Spanish Inquisition.

mdccclxix
07-30-2012, 06:52 PM
I like laughing at ourselves. It's healthy. The problem is when it regresses into a bunch of name calling. That's what I initially pointed out as a problem in this thread. I even had a good chuckle at the annual chicken littlers.

I have not seen much name calling. ORG is very tame by internet standards. "Bandwagoner" is the worst I've seen in this thread. Seriously, would the injured party please speak for themselves or is everyone speaking in code here!

Scrap Irony
07-30-2012, 06:57 PM
This kind of post is exactly the type of behavior that is only sinking the board further and further down.

It's a post clearly meant to dredge up the past. I don't mind telling people you're passively aggressively referring to me. And you know darn well no bet was agreed upon. Discussed? Yes. Agreed upon? No. And the thing is, you say you're only interested in people admitting they're wrong. Well guess what? I admitted I was wrong about that despite the fact we didn't actually agree on a bet. So if all you're concerned with is making sure people know they are wrong, then why are you so concerned with a bet that was never made?

And bringing it up now, trying to disguise it as some random person but with clear intentions to instigate is obvious why there is no justification for what you're describing. You don't care about learning experiences or teaching people the err of their ways. You're only playing the "gotcha" card. Clear as it was then, it is with this sort of response. That's really what this is about.

Sorry.

I didn't realize it was you. (I probably should have done the research, as I thought it was Sea Ray.) There's no instigation meant, just an example of what I consider poor form.

Sabo Fan
07-30-2012, 07:00 PM
I don't have a problem with people playing Mulder and Scully.

I do have a problem with people playing King Ferdinand II and the Spanish Inquisition.

http://gretachristina.typepad.com/.a/6a00d8341bf68b53ef01156fb855cc970c-800wi

It's how they just burst in out of nowhere that really gets me.

Brutus
07-30-2012, 07:00 PM
Sorry.

I didn't realize it was you. (I probably should have done the research, as I thought it was Sea Ray.) There's no instigation meant, just an example of what I consider poor form.

Fair enough. But I admitted I was wrong, I just truly did not believe we had agreed to a bet. Isn't that the real underlying issue here in your position? Whether people can admit their mistakes?

jojo
07-30-2012, 07:03 PM
Mel Brooks´ Spanish Inquisition - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CqgZnvfJ9Jg)

edabbs44
07-30-2012, 07:07 PM
In that case, when it concerns how credible someone is based on their past "insider information", I agree with you.

A couple of thoughts:

1) You will likely not see much calling out of past posts unless there is a very strong, aggressive or definitive position taken. Also potentially if the post has a lot of analysis or thought put into it. That might not be fair, but it is the nature of the beast.

2) I am a little surprised that some are so opposed to having former posts being brought up in retrospect. If you are making a forward looking claim or prediction, why can't that be refreshed for new thoughts or commentary?

3) It is kind of like Alan Greenspan. He was the man when things were going well and all that, but year later the country felt the effects of his decisions. Are his years in office of limits?

4) I remember a post years ago that had some other posters swooning. It had a lot of analysis, research and thought put into it and, at the time, it sounded great. Some posters even suggested that the piece should be sent to the FO and a prominent museum. The post was later refreshed and more accolades were provided. Then, over the next year, reality started to deviate from the analysis and, in hindsight, the post appeared to lose most of its luster. It was refreshed to try and simulate discussion and received one response. I was honestly surprised that no one jumped into the discussion as I thought it would have been a very interesting continuation. But I think this is a good illustration...if you have the time to take a strong stance on something at a certain time, you should be there to back it up at any point.

But, the posts should always be cordial and in good taste. If not, this would never work.

jojo
07-30-2012, 07:32 PM
2) I am a little surprised that some are so opposed to having former posts being brought up in retrospect. If you are making a forward looking claim or prediction, why can't that be refreshed for new thoughts or commentary?

I think it all depends upon how its done.

Puffy
07-30-2012, 07:42 PM
Let's be honest here - there are so many predictions/strong positions taken here no one is going to remember the lionshare of them. The ones we do remember are the ones who are aggressive, defensive, downright no discussion, I'm right, you are wrong ones.

For example, kaldaniels has mentioned a couple of times in this thread that he has made assertions he regrets but no one has responded to him because no one wants a gotcha moment with someone who is respectful and admits something none of us remember. Thats the bar room feel I am talking about.

But if he was a jerk about his earlier "position" then why not bring it back up. Civility breeds civility. Non-civility, well........

kaldaniels
07-30-2012, 07:52 PM
I think this has been a really good discussion with both points of view represented quite well. So far well done everyone.

Let me throw another wrench into things.

What about posters who "toot their own horn" by bringing up something from the archives? I'm sure I've done it. I'm sure many of us have done it. Vis a vis this conversation...is it a relevant matter to discuss?

Puffy
07-30-2012, 07:55 PM
I think this has been a really good discussion with both points of view represented quite well. So far well done everyone.

Let me throw another wrench into things.

What about posters who "toot their own horn" by bringing up something from the archives? I'm sure I've done it. I'm sure many of us have done it. Vis a vis this conversation...is it a relevant matter to discuss?

Is this about me and the Cbus yes/no thread because I was not just tooting my own horn that is a damn funny thread!!!!

;)

Boss-Hog
07-30-2012, 07:55 PM
That makes perfect sense to me.


Let's be honest here - there are so many predictions/strong positions taken here no one is going to remember the lionshare of them. The ones we do remember are the ones who are aggressive, defensive, downright no discussion, I'm right, you are wrong ones.

For example, kaldaniels has mentioned a couple of times in this thread that he has made assertions he regrets but no one has responded to him because no one wants a gotcha moment with someone who is respectful and admits something none of us remember. Thats the bar room feel I am talking about.

But if he was a jerk about his earlier "position" then why not bring it back up. Civility breeds civility. Non-civility, well........

kaldaniels
07-30-2012, 07:59 PM
Is this about me and the Cbus yes/no thread because I was not just tooting my own horn that is a damn funny thread!!!!

;)

Unfortunately I have no idea about that thread, but if it makes me look good, why yes that is exactly what I was referring to. ;)

Raisor
07-30-2012, 08:07 PM
As I am never wrong, I have no problem dredging up anything I've ever typed.


And yes, that's a challange.

smith288
07-30-2012, 08:27 PM
Surprised this thread isnt locked yet. Very sundecky feel to it.

M2
07-30-2012, 09:46 PM
As I am never wrong, I have no problem dredging up anything I've ever typed.


And yes, that's a challange.

Who would dare question how handsome you are? Plus, I think people realize that you don't have time for such needless distractions when you must daily turn away Rachel Weisz's offers to leave Daniel Craig for you.

Raisor
07-30-2012, 09:47 PM
Who would dare question how handsome you are? Plus, I think people realize that you don't have time for such needless distractions when you must daily turn away Rachel Weisz's offers to leave Daniel Craig for you.

it's hard being me.

M2
07-30-2012, 09:56 PM
Let's be honest here - there are so many predictions/strong positions taken here no one is going to remember the lionshare of them. The ones we do remember are the ones who are aggressive, defensive, downright no discussion, I'm right, you are wrong ones.

For example, kaldaniels has mentioned a couple of times in this thread that he has made assertions he regrets but no one has responded to him because no one wants a gotcha moment with someone who is respectful and admits something none of us remember. Thats the bar room feel I am talking about.

But if he was a jerk about his earlier "position" then why not bring it back up. Civility breeds civility. Non-civility, well........

Yup. And this particular thread had some people incensed. I wasn't one of them, but people should be able to say, "Hey, remember this horrible post you made that made a lot of people want to claw their eyes out? Well, you were supremely wrong."

In some ways it's a compliment. Most of the dreck that gets posted fails to resonate or draws a "Why bother?" response.

wolfboy
07-30-2012, 09:59 PM
nm

Chip R
07-30-2012, 10:08 PM
Nah, I agree with you. But there has to be some happy medium.

And M2 - I think Chipster still has those Cbus pictures.

M2
07-30-2012, 10:14 PM
Chip, have you got the no too?

Chip R
07-30-2012, 10:23 PM
Chip, have you got the no too?

I mean, yes. ;)

Sea Ray
07-31-2012, 09:53 AM
I have not seen much name calling. ORG is very tame by internet standards. "Bandwagoner" is the worst I've seen in this thread. Seriously, would the injured party please speak for themselves or is everyone speaking in code here!

Exactly. This is pages and pages of code. If you have a gripe post the specific example so we know what we're discussing here and the parties can defend themselves. Otherwise it's just wasted bandwidth

nate
07-31-2012, 10:35 AM
To me, chest thumping is one of the biggest drains on discussion quality.

I doubt instituting a policy of "the beatings will continue until morale improves" assuages that.

Here however, is another point: baseball itself and prognostication of isn't an absolute science. Making a proclamation that "X will happen because of Y" is pretty much just asking for it.

We can sign all of the best pitchers, fielders and hitters and while that increases the probability of winning, it doesn't guarantee winning a single game.

I think we'd all be a lot better off if we mentally added "to me" or "I think" to the end of every "prickly" statement. This could tend to soften more pointed conversation.

Let's face it, we're not freaking curing cancer here, we're talking about grown men playing a game in the grass while wearing pajamas.

To me.

:cool:

Mario-Rijo
07-31-2012, 10:38 AM
Surprised this thread isnt locked yet. Very sundecky feel to it.

Really? :confused:

I think these are just the type of discussions this board needs. Too much walking on eggshells has stifled us all. Let us out, let us breath a little without getting our hand smacked, we can behave! I don't think much of anything is out of line (nothing stands out in my mind) and what might have been perceived to be at some point quickly moved towards something else.

Could you provide an example of what you think is "Sundecky"? Not trying to be sarcastic or just snarky but seriously curious as to what others think that is.

wolfboy
07-31-2012, 10:40 AM
Really? :confused:

I think these are just the type of discussions this board needs. Too much walking on eggshells has stifled us all. Let us out, let us breath a little without getting our hand smacked, we can behave! I don't think much of anything is out of line (nothing stands out in my mind) and what might have been perceived to be at some point quickly moved towards something else.

Could you provide an example of what you think is "Sundecky"? Not trying to be sarcastic or just snarky but seriously curious as to what others think that is.

I was also surprised to see it characterized as "Sundecky." I think it's been a very civil discussion.

wolfboy
07-31-2012, 10:41 AM
I think we'd all be a lot better off if we mentally added "to me" or "I think" to the end of every "prickly" statement. This could tend to soften more pointed conversation.

I think that's a great point that's been brought up several times in this thread. :beerme:

smith288
07-31-2012, 11:15 AM
Really? :confused:

I think these are just the type of discussions this board needs. Too much walking on eggshells has stifled us all. Let us out, let us breath a little without getting our hand smacked, we can behave! I don't think much of anything is out of line (nothing stands out in my mind) and what might have been perceived to be at some point quickly moved towards something else.

Could you provide an example of what you think is "Sundecky"? Not trying to be sarcastic or just snarky but seriously curious as to what others think that is.
This thread has little to do with baseball. Sundecky meaning that the subject has diverted itself away from the original topic and now is back and forth on nonbaseball tit-for-tat between two camps. Feels like a Non-sports Chatter thread now.

That all.

Mario-Rijo
07-31-2012, 11:41 AM
This thread has little to do with baseball. Sundecky meaning that the subject has diverted itself away from the original topic and now is back and forth on nonbaseball tit-for-tat between two camps. Feels like a Non-sports Chatter thread now.

That all.

NM, fair enough.

edabbs44
07-31-2012, 11:50 AM
I think we'd all be a lot better off if we mentally added "to me" or "I think" to the end of every "prickly" statement. This could tend to soften more pointed conversation.

It probably makes more sense for the poster to clarify their position in the original post.

cincrazy
07-31-2012, 11:54 AM
Again not trying to be snarky but seriously why do you really care? Not aiming this at you specifically smith288 but I wonder how everyone feels about it. The reason I ask that is I see this often in threads where someone pops in and is annoyed that something other than the exact original topic is being debated. I guess my perception of such is that it is an extension of the original discussion. When someone states this it at times quells what could be a meaningful even necessary discussion. I admit there are times when it is clearly out of bounds but in this case I don't feel that way. I think the original debate was dead a long time ago. Should we be so rigid about everything, always? What is it hurting? Again don't anyone be offended I guess I just don't see the harm sometimes.

I'm with Smith288 here. It's an important time of year, and having a thread that's dedicated to people generally snipping at each other (even if it is civil) is just kind of silly. I want baseball. That's why I come here. I don't care who was right or wrong about what. I just want to talk Reds baseball. I'm not saying this thread doesn't have a place, some of you really care about the content in it, and that's fine. I just wish it was in another forum and not the ORG. This is the kind of stuff the Sun Deck is making fun of the ORG for. For supposedly being "above" this kind of stuff, we have a whole thread dedicated to... what exactly?

Mario-Rijo
07-31-2012, 11:58 AM
I'm with Smith288 here. It's an important time of year, and having a thread that's dedicated to people generally snipping at each other (even if it is civil) is just kind of silly. I want baseball. That's why I come here. I don't care who was right or wrong about what. I just want to talk Reds baseball. I'm not saying this thread doesn't have a place, some of you really care about the content in it, and that's fine. I just wish it was in another forum and not the ORG. This is the kind of stuff the Sun Deck is making fun of the ORG for. For supposedly being "above" this kind of stuff, we have a whole thread dedicated to... what exactly?

I withdrew the post already, no need for me to start another whirlwind. But thanks for the comment. Let's just say I respectfully disagree. If you check in once and don't care for the discussion you know to skip it from here on out, this is what I tend to do. At least in this case where that original topic is sort of dead.

wolfboy
07-31-2012, 12:02 PM
I'm with Smith288 here. It's an important time of year, and having a thread that's dedicated to people generally snipping at each other (even if it is civil) is just kind of silly. I want baseball. That's why I come here. I don't care who was right or wrong about what. I just want to talk Reds baseball. I'm not saying this thread doesn't have a place, some of you really care about the content in it, and that's fine. I just wish it was in another forum and not the ORG. This is the kind of stuff the Sun Deck is making fun of the ORG for. For supposedly being "above" this kind of stuff, we have a whole thread dedicated to... what exactly?

What we consider civil? What furthers productive conversation rather than inhibits it? The standards we should impose upon ourselves as ORG posters? What accountability means when you hit "submit reply?" The level of quality in this forum?

I don't disagree that the conversation should have another home, especially at this point in the season. I may not even disagree that this discussion has run its course, but that doesn't mean it has no place here. The mere fact that we think about and discuss what it means to be a part of the ORG is what is supposed to set us apart.

cincrazy
07-31-2012, 12:08 PM
What we consider civil? What furthers productive conversation rather than inhibits it? The standards we should impose upon ourselves as ORG posters? What accountability means when you hit "submit reply?" The level of quality in this forum?

I don't disagree that the conversation should have another home, especially at this point in the season. I may not even disagree that this discussion has run its course, but that doesn't mean it has no place here. The mere fact that we think about and discuss what it means to be a part of the ORG is what is supposed to set us apart.

In essence, what we're doing here is arguing about how we should argue lol. I just don't really understand any of it. Again, some of you find it really important, and that's fine. I don't begrudge any of you that right. I just wish it was in another forum, that's all. It's maybe the most busy thread in the ORG at the moment, on July 31st. I just think that's silly.

smith288
07-31-2012, 12:16 PM
In essence, what we're doing here is arguing about how we should argue lol. I just don't really understand any of it. Again, some of you find it really important, and that's fine. I don't begrudge any of you that right. I just wish it was in another forum, that's all. It's maybe the most busy thread in the ORG at the moment, on July 31st. I just think that's silly.
+1 Arguing about how to argue. lol

Raisor
07-31-2012, 12:24 PM
Yet you're adding to it.

Think about it.

:)

cincrazy
07-31-2012, 12:26 PM
Yet you're adding to it.

Think about it.

:)

SHHHHHHHH!!!!

I thought of that while I was posting. How dare you bring it up! Consequences shall be rendered on Facebook.

M2
07-31-2012, 12:28 PM
Arguing about how to argue.

The best way to have an argument is just to dive head first into arguing. Anyone who wants to argue that arguing during an argument is out of bounds, well I'll argue with that.

cincrazy
07-31-2012, 12:31 PM
The best way to have an argument is just to dive head first into arguing. Anyone who wants to argue that arguing during an argument is out of bounds, well I'll argue with that.

:laugh:

Mario-Rijo
07-31-2012, 12:35 PM
In essence, what we're doing here is arguing about how we should argue lol. I just don't really understand any of it. Again, some of you find it really important, and that's fine. I don't begrudge any of you that right. I just wish it was in another forum, that's all. It's maybe the most busy thread in the ORG at the moment, on July 31st. I just think that's silly.

Easy there my Pizza Pause friend! ;) Point taken.

cincrazy
07-31-2012, 01:44 PM
Easy there my Pizza Pause friend! ;) Point taken.

Oh I'm not upset about it at all, don't take anything I said the wrong way :)

Mario-Rijo
07-31-2012, 01:46 PM
Oh I'm not upset about it at all, don't take anything I said the wrong way :)

I know I was just teasin' ya.

smith288
07-31-2012, 02:31 PM
The best way to have an argument is just to dive head first into arguing. Anyone who wants to argue that arguing during an argument is out of bounds, well I'll argue with that.
I take umbrage with your argument about how you think an argument should be argued.

wheels
05-02-2013, 11:04 AM
We've been down this road before, folks.

I hate bumping old threads in general, but I'm sensing the board is on the verge of a full melt down. Hopefully it can serve as a reminder to the newer folks that it's a marathon, not a sprint.

This past month is just the opening act of a much longer, Kubrick esque script.

*BaseClogger*
05-02-2013, 11:26 AM
This past month is just the opening act of a much longer, Kubrick esque script.

Gah, I hope the robot boy doesn't get to spend a day with his mother at the end of the season...

Ghosts of 1990
05-02-2013, 11:33 AM
I actually don't feel like we're in grave danger. I think the Pirates and Brewers will inevitably regress leaving this to be a race between us and the Cardinals for the division. I like our roster just as well as theirs if not better. Even if we fall out of the central race, the Dodgers and Nationals are not without problems in the wildcard race. Bruce hasn't hit at all yet, and Votto hasn't hit as much as I expected him to. We will hit better as the weather heats up, especially at home.

We will be right there at the end again.

edabbs44
05-02-2013, 12:01 PM
I actually don't feel like we're in grave danger. I think the Pirates and Brewers will inevitably regress leaving this to be a race between us and the Cardinals for the division. I like our roster just as well as theirs if not better. Even if we fall out of the central race, the Dodgers and Nationals are not without problems in the wildcard race. Bruce hasn't hit at all yet, and Votto hasn't hit as much as I expected him to. We will hit better as the weather heats up, especially at home.

We will be right there at the end again.

Grave danger?

OldXOhio
05-02-2013, 12:09 PM
Is there any other kind?

OldXOhio
05-02-2013, 12:12 PM
We need a real, cleanup hitting LF.

Other than that, this team will be fine.

Good call last year. And this one.

Kc61
05-02-2013, 12:14 PM
We've been down this road before, folks.

I hate bumping old threads in general, but I'm sensing the board is on the verge of a full melt down. Hopefully it can serve as a reminder to the newer folks that it's a marathon, not a sprint.

This past month is just the opening act of a much longer, Kubrick esque script.

Not personal to this post, but I don't like these efforts to cut off discussion early in the season because folks are "on the ledge" or suggesting a "panic move." Problems arise with a team early as well as late. It's all worth discussing.

Maybe the month of April tells us nothing, maybe it tells us a lot. Nobody knows. But it's all worth discussing and as fans we have a right to be concerned, just as others have a right to be patient.

Last year, I thought the problems raised in April posts here were real. And they lasted all season. The Reds themselves recognized this as reflected in the Choo trade. These problems (among others) contributed to the Reds weak season close.

So it's fair for some to remind us to be patient, but it's equally fair for people to wonder why the team isn't sufficiently addressing the LF problem, the number two hitter problem, and other issues with the team.

RedEye
05-02-2013, 01:54 PM
So it's fair for some to remind us to be patient, but it's equally fair for people to wonder why the team isn't sufficiently addressing the LF problem, the number two hitter problem, and other issues with the team.

Point taken. But here's why folks DO need to "back off the ledge":

The #2 hitter problem won't be addressed in the way we like because of the manager we've got. IMO, there's not much point spinning our wheels there I'm afraid. With Dusty, the SS hits second -- even if he can't hit. Complaining is fine as long as no one is under the illusion this will change. RZ can be a forum for that.

The LF problem is the one generating all of the extra threads. People ruminate about bringing up unsuccessful prospects (Soto, etc.) or trading off young players for a pie-in-the-sky (Giancarlo Stanton), a respected retread (Chris Denorfia) or the most recent guy they saw hit a home run (Justin Ruggiano). After a month of games, these are pretty reactionary responses, and most of them are unrealistic or irresponsible in reality.

So it's natural to be concerned, but cooler heads should (and most likely will) prevail. That said, you are right. This is what RZ is for -- the process of cooling our heads.

Kc61
05-02-2013, 03:22 PM
Point taken. But here's why folks DO need to "back off the ledge":

The #2 hitter problem won't be addressed in the way we like because of the manager we've got. IMO, there's not much point spinning our wheels there I'm afraid. With Dusty, the SS hits second -- even if he can't hit. Complaining is fine as long as no one is under the illusion this will change. RZ can be a forum for that.

The LF problem is the one generating all of the extra threads. People ruminate about bringing up unsuccessful prospects (Soto, etc.) or trading off young players for a pie-in-the-sky (Giancarlo Stanton), a respected retread (Chris Denorfia) or the most recent guy they saw hit a home run (Justin Ruggiano). After a month of games, these are pretty reactionary responses, and most of them are unrealistic or irresponsible in reality.

So it's natural to be concerned, but cooler heads should (and most likely will) prevail. That said, you are right. This is what RZ is for -- the process of cooling our heads.

LOL, one-sided trade proposals favoring ones favorite team are as old as the hills! I've been hearing absurd proposed trades for dozens of years on sports talk radio, with friends. Don't need the internet for that!

I think the problem with a lot of the "stay calm" threads is that some of us have very high expectations. Maybe justifiably so, or maybe because the team hasn't been a true championship contender very much lately.

Personally, I said before the season started that a .500 record in April would be ok. Hard for me to back off that, I said it more than once.

So I'm not upset (or have no right to be) by the won-lost record. I am much more upset by the way they have addressed - or not addressed - obvious issues.

LF is not a choice between an absurd, lopsided trade proposal and doing nothing. There are other alternatives like a modest acquisition or even a good plan using players currently on the team.

There I go again, but the current passive approach just isn't my style . . . .