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Jr's Boy
04-19-2012, 06:59 PM
Oh boy,was he dealin today or what?Shutting down the defending world champions.That was big,real big.

Mutaman
04-19-2012, 07:11 PM
Where are all those Sundeckers who were recently calling Bronson "the worst pitcher in baseball". Beginning to look like his health was the reason last year was such a downer.

texasdave
04-19-2012, 07:17 PM
He was the worst pitcher in baseball last year. Is that in dispute? I said he will be the worst until he proves otherwise. I will stand by that statement. He is proving otherwise. Three starts does not a season make. But Bronson has pitched well through three starts. Hope he continues.

Mutaman
04-19-2012, 07:36 PM
He was the worst pitcher in baseball last year. Is that in dispute? I said he will be the worst until he proves otherwise. I will stand by that statement. He is proving otherwise. Three starts does not a season make. But Bronson has pitched well through three starts. Hope he continues.

How many quality starts before he is no longer the worst?

texasdave
04-19-2012, 07:47 PM
How many quality starts before he is no longer the worst?

I would suppose that would depend on if and how many clunkers are thrown in.
May 15th is a good date to me. Under 4.50 ERA on May 15th sounds like a good test.
Bronson is a second-half pitcher. If he is under 4.50 on that date I would say he is in for a pretty productive season.

ervinsm84
04-19-2012, 07:50 PM
Trade him now. His value wont get much higher than it is after this start to the season....oh wait that's right, there still isn't much of a market for him and I wonder why that may be?

TheBigLebowski
04-19-2012, 07:52 PM
How many quality starts before he is no longer the worst?

Those of you who boast about Bronson's early season successes are the same ones who jump on others who complain about slow starts by other Reds, citing "it's a long season and we're only _____ games in!" as the most ever-ready defense. Well, works in regards to Bronson as well. I would LOVE it if he could sustain this success. But I don't see it happening.

BTW, I cannot recall ONE person here starting a thread in the pre-season regarding 2012 being Bronson's bounce back campaign. So any and all success he achieves will obviously be a surprise to all of us. So no "I told you so!" nonsense either.

brm7675
04-19-2012, 08:04 PM
Those of you who boast about Bronson's early season successes are the same ones who jump on others who complain about slow starts by other Reds, citing "it's a long season and we're only _____ games in!" as the most ever-ready defense. Well, works in regards to Bronson as well. I would LOVE it if he could sustain this success. But I don't see it happening.

BTW, I cannot recall ONE person here starting a thread in the pre-season regarding 2012 being Bronson's bounce back campaign. So any and all success he achieves will obviously be a surprise to all of us. So no "I told you so!" nonsense either.

I have been saying all offseason and in ST that Bronson would bounce back and be the 2nd best pitcher on the roster this season with an ERA under 4 and 14-15 wins, and you know what...people laughed said he was done, washed up...go ask Nux Fan he will tell you...

TheBigLebowski
04-19-2012, 08:11 PM
I have been saying all offseason and in ST that Bronson would bounce back and be the 2nd best pitcher on the roster this season with an ERA under 4 and 14-15 wins, and you know what...people laughed said he was done, washed up...go ask Nux Fan he will tell you...

I never saw that, but it's quite possible I missed it. I'll give you credit for the prediction, and Godspeed to your soothsaying skills.

Mutaman
04-19-2012, 08:17 PM
Those of you who boast about Bronson's early season successes are the same ones who jump on others who complain about slow starts by other Reds, citing "it's a long season and we're only _____ games in!" .

I usually don't "boast" about other's success unless its a family member. In fact reviewing this thread, I'm just asking a couple of questions.

Mutaman
04-19-2012, 08:19 PM
Personally, right now I'd say Bill Bray is the worst pitcher in baseball.

Mutaman
04-19-2012, 08:24 PM
....oh wait that's right, there still isn't much of a market for him

Do you have any evidence to support this statement?

brm7675
04-19-2012, 08:36 PM
Personally, right now I'd say Bill Bray is the worst pitcher in baseball.

Well given he was hurt in ST and didn't get a ST and dusty is already abusing him...what else do you think would happen? He is another case of should be on the DL and rehabbing in AZ and joining the team say come May...but no not with the duster and waltz...

Mutaman
04-19-2012, 08:44 PM
Well given he was hurt in ST and didn't get a ST and dusty is already abusing him...what else do you think would happen? He is another case of should be on the DL and rehabbing in AZ and joining the team say come May...but no not with the duster and waltz...

I agree, but wasn't Bronson hurt most of last year? Yet lots of folks were bashing him all winter and spring.

Bray's last spring training outing was on MLB and he was terrible. I don't see how anyone could have had him come north, much less use him in a significant situation. (But for Bray, Arroyo would be 2-0 right now).

The problem is, so many folks bash Baker and Walt for so much petty bs, that when it comes time to legitimately criticise them, its gets lost in all the foolishness.

brm7675
04-19-2012, 08:47 PM
I agree, but wasn't Bronson hurt most of last year? Yet lots of folks were bashing him all winter and spring.

Bray's last spring training outing was on MLB and he was terrible. I don't see how anyone could have had him come north, much less use him in a significant situation. (But for Bray, Arroyo would be 2-0 right now).

The problem is, so many folks bash Baker and Walt for so much petty bs, that when it comes time to legitimately criticise them, its gets lost in all the foolishness.

Not me I am a full time equal opportunity basher of those two. This team wins in spite of most of what those two do. Both are for some reason still stuck in 70's/80's style of baseball.:thumbdown:

AintlifeGrande
04-19-2012, 08:52 PM
Let's live in the day,ok.One start at a time.And yes there is a market for an innings eater like Arroyo.When that curve ball of his is humming,it's the best on the staff,if not the Central.

texasdave
04-19-2012, 09:00 PM
I agree, but wasn't Bronson hurt most of last year? Yet lots of folks were bashing him all winter and spring.

Bray's last spring training outing was on MLB and he was terrible. I don't see how anyone could have had him come north, much less use him in a significant situation. (But for Bray, Arroyo would be 2-0 right now).

The problem is, so many folks bash Baker and Walt for so much petty bs, that when it comes time to legitimately criticise them, its gets lost in all the foolishness.

If Bronson was hurt all last year and they kept handing him the ball, in spite of the awful numbers he was putting up, then Walt and Dusty deserve a little bashing. How do you keep handing him the ball if he is hurting and you see the results he is giving you? Makes no sense.

texasdave
04-19-2012, 09:02 PM
wrong thread.

Jdattilo
04-19-2012, 11:54 PM
I was concerned. Hope my concern continues to be overblown.

Stray
04-20-2012, 01:09 AM
He's chomping up some innings this year which is so needed on this team, the quality of those innings has been surprising. Looks like a healthy offseason has done wonders for him. Even those who were bashing him left and right last year had to realize he wasn't as bad as he looked, we all knew he just wasn't right.

I'll take 7 innings of 3 run ball from him every 5 days and love it. Anything better than that is icing.

texasdave
04-20-2012, 01:15 AM
He's chomping up some innings this year which is so needed on this team, the quality of those innings has been surprising. Looks like a healthy offseason has done wonders for him. Even those who were bashing him left and right last year had to realize he wasn't as bad as he looked, we all knew he just wasn't right.

I'll take 7 innings of 3 run ball from him every 5 days and love it. Anything better than that is icing.

Talk about jumping the gun. He just had back-to-back starts in two of the best pitcher's parks in the league. In his one start in GABP it was 6 1/3 innings of ten-hit, four-run baseball. I'll take a wait-and-see approach.

Stray
04-20-2012, 01:18 AM
Talk about jumping the gun. He just had back-to-back starts in two of the best pitcher's parks in the league. In his one start in GABP it was 6 1/3 innings of ten-hit, four-run baseball. I'll take a wait-and-see approach.

I wouldn't say jumping the gun. If he goes 200ish innings with around a 4 era I will consider it a successful season for him. I don't think that's too much to expect. Oh and Busch was playing pretty small today imo.

Obv with only 3 starts we can't make any huge assessments, but you can tell he has more life on his pitches than last year. Heck you can tell he's in a much better place by just listening to his interviews.

texasdave
04-20-2012, 01:27 AM
His velocity is down from last year. Well, according to Fangraphs it is. Fastball in 2011 was 86.7. This year 86.2. I thought it went up. I still want to see more than three starts before proclaiming him back to where he was.

Mutaman
04-20-2012, 01:51 AM
His velocity is down from last year. Well, according to Fangraphs it is. Fastball in 2011 was 86.7. This year 86.2. I thought it went up. I still want to see more than three starts before proclaiming him back to where he was.

I though the plateau he had to reach was getting out from being the worst pitcher in baseball. "Back to where he was", which was one of the biggest winners in baseball despite pitching in a little league park, is a whole nother level.

R_Webb18
04-20-2012, 02:48 AM
Well given he was hurt in ST and didn't get a ST and dusty is already abusing him...what else do you think would happen? He is another case of should be on the DL and rehabbing in AZ and joining the team say come May...but no not with the duster and waltz...

either way if he's not ready or not he's def not abusing him. he would be doing same thing to get ready. only thru 2.2 ip. now could he be hurting the team? thats the real debate.

[deleted]
04-20-2012, 05:50 AM
Arroyo was legendarily bad last year. The worst pitcher in baseball, easily. Health or not, there's not much dispute there.

The "it's still early" defense goes both ways, though - we're not even 15 games into the season yet, so using these three starts as evidence that Arroyo is "back to being good" is only as valid as saying "well, here's proof: Jay Bruce (or Latos, or whoever) is terrible."

I'm still not expecting much of anything out of him this year, but am pleased at what we've seen so far. As a Reds fan, I hope I am wrong about Arroyo, but we need more time to be sure.

texasdave
04-20-2012, 08:08 AM
I though the plateau he had to reach was getting out from being the worst pitcher in baseball. "Back to where he was", which was one of the biggest winners in baseball despite pitching in a little league park, is a whole nother level.

You thought incorrectly. He was the worst pitcher in baseball. His defenders are stating it was because he was not 100%. I don't buy into that theory. Since they state he is once again healthy this year, then logically, he should be pitching at his 2010 level or close to it. Going from worst pitcher in baseball to second worst is pretty meaningless. He needs to be able to pitch effectively. He needs to show he is the Bronson of old.

If all he had to do was become the second worst pitcher in baseball he is already there, according to you. See one Bill Bray.

The DARK
04-20-2012, 08:36 AM
;2571704']Arroyo was legendarily bad last year. The worst pitcher in baseball, easily. Health or not, there's not much dispute there.


Have you forgotten Volquez so easily? Or outside of the Reds, John Lackey?

Arroyo gave up a ton of home runs, but that's what happens when a junkballer who's undergoing his first injury issue in years plays half his games in GABP. If he had been healthier and played in a larger ballpark, I imagine he'd have had an ERA much closer to his usual mean. A 5.07 ERA is by no means good, but given the circumstances, it's not the end of the world. I expect him to surprise a lot of us this year even if the velocity doesn't return.

dubc47834
04-20-2012, 08:42 AM
I would suppose that would depend on if and how many clunkers are thrown in.
May 15th is a good date to me. Under 4.50 ERA on May 15th sounds like a good test.
Bronson is a second-half pitcher. If he is under 4.50 on that date I would say he is in for a pretty productive season.

Right now he is far from the worst, and I would say last year he wasn't the worst either.

dubc47834
04-20-2012, 08:56 AM
He was the worst pitcher in baseball last year. Is that in dispute? I said he will be the worst until he proves otherwise. I will stand by that statement. He is proving otherwise. Three starts does not a season make. But Bronson has pitched well through three starts. Hope he continues.

According to xFIP statistics from last year he didn't even break the top 30 worst starting pitchers in MLB. He wasn't even the worst pitcher on the team, Travis Wood was.

:lol::laugh::lol::laugh::lol::laugh::lol::laugh::l ol::laugh:

Red Raindog
04-20-2012, 09:01 AM
;2571704']Arroyo was legendarily bad last year. The worst pitcher in baseball, easily. Health or not, there's not much dispute there.

The "it's still early" defense goes both ways, though - we're not even 15 games into the season yet, so using these three starts as evidence that Arroyo is "back to being good" is only as valid as saying "well, here's proof: Jay Bruce (or Latos, or whoever) is terrible."

I'm still not expecting much of anything out of him this year, but am pleased at what we've seen so far. As a Reds fan, I hope I am wrong about Arroyo, but we need more time to be sure.

Yes - it is early.

I am hopeful about BA -- before I was mostly fearful about his upcoming season.

His first three starts look like a completely different pitcher -- more on his fastball + better location and I sense that he has confidence in them leads me to believe in him again.

texasdave
04-20-2012, 09:03 AM
According to xFIP statistics from last year he didn't even break the top 30 worst starting pitchers in MLB. He wasn't even the worst pitcher on the team, Travis Wood was.

:lol::laugh::lol::laugh::lol::laugh::lol::laugh::l ol::laugh:

You wanna post that link? Take your time. It doesn't exist.

Here are two actual links. If you get a chance look them over.

Starting pitcher WAR from 2011. Notice Bronson is far and away the worst? Probably not. In fact he was the only qualified starting pitcher that pitched at below replacement level.

http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=all&stats=pit&lg=all&qual=y&type=8&season=2011&month=0&season1=2011&ind=0&team=0&rost=0&age=0&players=0&sort=18,a

If you want to go by xFIP here is the link for qualified starting pitchers. It shows him as 6th worst.

http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=all&stats=pit&lg=all&qual=y&type=8&season=2011&month=0&season1=2011&ind=0&team=0&rost=0&age=0&players=0&sort=17,d

I can't wait to see your imaginary link.

dubc47834
04-20-2012, 09:08 AM
You wanna post that link? Take your time. It doesn't exist.

Here are two actual links. If you get a chance look them over.

Starting pitcher WAR from 2011. Notice Bronson is far and away the worst? Probably not. In fact he was the only qualified starting pitcher that pitched at below replacement level.

http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=all&stats=pit&lg=all&qual=y&type=8&season=2011&month=0&season1=2011&ind=0&team=0&rost=0&age=0&players=0&sort=18,a

If you want to go by xFIP here is the link for qualified starting pitchers. It shows him as 6th worst.

http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=all&stats=pit&lg=all&qual=y&type=8&season=2011&month=0&season1=2011&ind=0&team=0&rost=0&age=0&players=0&sort=17,d

I can't wait to see your imaginary link.


http://rotochamp.com/baseball/2011PitcherAnalysis.aspx

Seeing is believing.......:owned:

Everyone can find something "proving" their case. I just don't think he was the worst starting pitcher in all of MLB last year. Yes he stunk up the field most of the year, but worst....nah!!!!

texasdave
04-20-2012, 09:19 AM
[QUOTE=dubc47834;2571727]http://rotochamp.com/baseball/2011PitcherAnalysis.aspx

Seeing is believing.......:owned:

Everyone can find something "proving" their case. I just don't think he was the worst starting pitcher in all of MLB last year. Yes he stunk up the field most of the year, but worst....nah!!

Most of those pitchers aren't qualified. You have to pitch a certain amount of innings. 162 to be exact. Just like Johnny Cueto didn't pitch enough innings to "qualify" for the ERA title.

texasdave
04-20-2012, 09:21 AM
Here are two more links which I am sure you won't put any stock in.

http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=all&stats=pit&lg=all&qual=y&type=8&season=2011&month=0&season1=2011&ind=0&team=0&rost=0&age=0&players=0&sort=15,d

http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=all&stats=pit&lg=all&qual=y&type=8&season=2011&month=0&season1=2011&ind=0&team=0&rost=0&age=0&players=0&sort=16,d

So worst in WAR. Worst in FIP. 4th worst in ERA. 6th worst in xFIP. Yeah, I'd say he could lay a legitimate claim to being the worst pitcher in the majors last year. And really all we are debating is the level of sucktitude.

dubc47834
04-20-2012, 09:26 AM
Also, I went on your link and found the following. Out of the 11 stats they were tracking, Bronson was worst in 3. Some of those he wasn't even close to being the worst. I did see a couple names commonly among the worst, Brad Penny and Derrick Lowe. Bronson was the worst in WAR, FIP, and HR/9.

dubc47834
04-20-2012, 09:28 AM
Here are two more links which I am sure you won't put any stock in.

http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=all&stats=pit&lg=all&qual=y&type=8&season=2011&month=0&season1=2011&ind=0&team=0&rost=0&age=0&players=0&sort=15,d

http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=all&stats=pit&lg=all&qual=y&type=8&season=2011&month=0&season1=2011&ind=0&team=0&rost=0&age=0&players=0&sort=16,d

So worst in WAR. Worst in FIP. 4th worst in ERA. 6th worst in xFIP. Yeah, I'd say he could lay a legitimate claim to being the worst pitcher in the majors last year. And really all we are debating is the level of sucktitude.

I don't think he was the worst, you do. Let's just agree to disagree!!! We both can find stats that prove a point.

dubc47834
04-20-2012, 09:29 AM
[QUOTE=dubc47834;2571727]http://rotochamp.com/baseball/2011PitcherAnalysis.aspx

Seeing is believing.......:owned:

Everyone can find something "proving" their case. I just don't think he was the worst starting pitcher in all of MLB last year. Yes he stunk up the field most of the year, but worst....nah!!

Most of those pitchers aren't qualified. You have to pitch a certain amount of innings. 162 to be exact. Just like Johnny Cueto didn't pitch enough innings to "qualify" for the ERA title.

Worst pitchers can't be relievers?

Jdattilo
04-20-2012, 11:09 AM
People are concerned about the velocity on his fastball. I have a feeling without doing the research that so far he's using that fastball less. When he got beat up last year I believe it was overusing that slow fastball and leaving the thing right over the heart of the plate.

DirtyBaker
04-20-2012, 11:26 AM
Bronson was never really healthy at all in 2011. Remember it started with contracting mono, and he still pitched relatively well early in the season if I recall correctly. But his back was a mess all year. It probably would have been better just to DL him, but he fought through it and gave us 199 innings anyway.

It was only 2010 when he was in the Cy Young conversation, an All-Star, and 17 game winner. It's really easy to look at the stats and say he's done, but if he's truly healthy this year he can carry value.

S.Wells
04-20-2012, 02:23 PM
Bronson pitched well yesterday. With that said it's not like the birds had there best line up facing him. He is a solid 3-4 starter in just about every rotation in baseball. Yes last year was bad, health and head issues. Looks like he has those things taken care of so far. I predict he will perform on his season averages this year. Which is pretty good for our 3 guy.

Sent from my C771 using Tapatalk 2

smixsell
04-20-2012, 03:18 PM
I have been saying all offseason and in ST that Bronson would bounce back and be the 2nd best pitcher on the roster this season with an ERA under 4 and 14-15 wins, and you know what...people laughed said he was done, washed up...go ask Nux Fan he will tell you...

Me too. A bronson bounceback year has always been expected by me.