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View Full Version : Prediction: Kevin Youkilis will be the Reds next 3B



Benihana
04-21-2012, 09:02 PM
My guess is the Sox don't pick up his option after this year, given both his direction and their direction. He signs with the Reds in the offseason for a 1 or 2 year deal to finish his career in his hometown.*

You heard it here first (no inside info just an educated guess at this point).





*Unless of course Frazier or Henry Rodriguez absolutely light it up this year, in which case perhaps Youkilis could play LF.

Tom Servo
04-21-2012, 09:21 PM
Our team has been lacking in bald, sweaty guys with goatees.

757690
04-21-2012, 09:23 PM
Considering Valentine's recent comments, it might be sooner. ;)

Blitz Dorsey
04-21-2012, 10:02 PM
I like it. I both hope you're right and think you're right.

THE YOOOUKA!

gilpdawg
04-21-2012, 11:20 PM
He looks really old right now. He could get a dead cat bounce from coming to the NL but who knows. He might be washed up, then we're going down Rolen Road all over again.

Reds/Flyers Fan
04-21-2012, 11:26 PM
Forget next year, this needs to happen THIS year. Doc Rogers on 700 after the game mentioned possibly swapping youk for rolen and a pitcher. I don't know why the sox would want a clearly overmatched rolen though. If he can't hit in the NL the past two years he would be thoroughly embarrassed in the AL East.

Rogers also mentioned Bobby Abreu and Carlos Lee as two guys he thinks the Reds should be looking at. I'd pass on Abreu, but Lee would fit into this lineup/team perfectly.

Always Red
04-22-2012, 07:30 AM
Why?

Youk has hit about the same as Rolen since last years all star break (nothing), while delivering less defense.

Love the guy, love the Cincy roots, but don't want the Reds to pay a premium price for an aging player with a slow bat and is past his prime.

GAC
04-22-2012, 01:56 PM
Why?

Youk has hit about the same as Rolen since last years all star break (nothing), while delivering less defense.

http://insider.espn.go.com/fantasy/blog?name=karabell_eric_baseball&id=7832159&_slug_=kevin-youkilis-disappointing-fantasy-owners-much-boston-red-sox-fans&action=login&appRedirect=http%3a%2f%2finsider.espn.go.com%2ffan tasy%2fblog%3fname%3dkarabell_eric_baseball%26id%3 d7832159%26_slug_%3dkevin-youkilis-disappointing-fantasy-owners-much-boston-red-sox-fans


It started late last season, even before the Red Sox imploded in September. Youkilis eventually needed surgery for a sports hernia, which I believe played a role in him batting .209 in August and .167 in September. From May through July, Youkilis hit .288 while drawing plenty of walks and knocking in 20 runs per month. Put simply, he was a valuable asset when healthy, then an injury turned him into a liability. Youkilis has played in an average of only 111 games over the past two campaigns, but one of those seasons he was very productive (.975 OPS in 2010) and even last year, for three months, nobody complained.

Vottomatic
04-22-2012, 02:53 PM
Can't afford him.

fearofpopvol1
04-22-2012, 03:55 PM
Can't afford him.

Yeah, I'd be worried about his pricetag too. Maybe he'd take a hometown discount? I'd like to see his bat rebound a little bit as well.

What if Rolen comes to Jocketty and says he's interested in an extension for 2 years for pennies? Or even 1 year? Do you do it?

camisadelgolf
04-22-2012, 04:28 PM
If the Reds were to sign Youkilis, that'd probably take the payroll over $100M for 2013. Let's say none of Scott Rolen, Ryan Ludwick, Miguel Cairo, Willie Harris, and Ryan Madson are re-signed. In order to keep the remaining team intact, they have $71.75M in guaranteed contracts to pay out plus the 8-10 players who will be eligible for arbitration (Heisey, Stubbs, Janish, Valdez, Leake, Latos, Bailey, Bray, Ondrusek, Simon). To keep all 10 of those players, it would probably cost ~$25M. If Heisey and/or Ondrusek aren't eligible for super two status, that would be a minimal help. And let's also say the Reds decide to part ways with Janish, Valdez, and maybe Bray or Simon. You're still talking about spending over $90M on the team without Youkilis or any other additions. It's a stretch to think the Reds could afford that, but the Reds have been accused of having some cash saved up, so I guess we'll find out soon enough.

Joseph
04-22-2012, 05:22 PM
Only if he's coming home at a discount. A BIG discount. He's on the wrong side of the trend chart.

Benihana
04-22-2012, 07:53 PM
Only if he's coming home at a discount. A BIG discount. He's on the wrong side of the trend chart.

Agreed- I certainly wouldn't pay nine figures for him. But I may take him at a significant discount.

_Sir_Charles_
04-23-2012, 12:53 PM
Can't afford him.

Can't afford him? I think you're talking about the OLD cincy club. The new high-rent Reds can easily afford him. :D

But I don't think he's the right target. We need a left-handed banger who plays solid defense for left and is a LEGITIMATE middle of the order bat.

Once Rolen is done, we've got his replacement in house already. Mr. Frazier.

As for left handed (or switch) OF power options. They're VERY limited currently. There are only a handful of guys who even remotely fit that description.

Logan Morrison, Carlos Gonzales, Alex Gordon, Nick Swisher, Carlos Beltran & Curtis Granderson. Now what the odds are of luring any of those guys away are, I'd say long indeed.

klw
04-23-2012, 01:17 PM
Can't afford him? I think you're talking about the OLD cincy club. The new high-rent Reds can easily afford him. :D

But I don't think he's the right target. We need a left-handed banger who plays solid defense for left and is a LEGITIMATE middle of the order bat.


I am not sure if he is the right target or not but I disagree with the assertion that the team needs a left handed banger. While the team does need a lefty bench bat, due to the Reds insisting on Votto and Bruce being split, the team is in great need of a solid bat to fit between them. A right handed masher to hit 4th would be perfect.

Benihana
04-23-2012, 01:25 PM
It's amazing how much of a perfect fit it is- the more I think about it.

Not necessarily because there aren't better targets out there. But just consider:

1. He appears to be falling out of favor in Boston
2. The Sox #1 prospect is Will Middlebrooks, a 3B who is on the cusp of being major league ready
3. There is no room for Youk at 1B or DH in Boston
4. He has said that if not in Boston, he'd like to finish his career with his hometown team
5. Jocketty loves getting the last couple miles out of great sluggers past their primes (ie Will Clark and Larry Walker with the Cardinals)
6. Both Jocketty and Baker love veterans who know how to win. Assuming Rolen is done after this year, Youk could fill the void vacated by Rolen and Coco.

I just hope he's willing to sign for something like $10-$15MM over two years, because otherwise I'm not that interested. Oh yeah, and I hope he regains his stroke and his health, because otherwise his career could be in jeopardy.

_Sir_Charles_
04-23-2012, 03:09 PM
I am not sure if he is the right target or not but I disagree with the assertion that the team needs a left handed banger. While the team does need a lefty bench bat, due to the Reds insisting on Votto and Bruce being split, the team is in great need of a solid bat to fit between them. A right handed masher to hit 4th would be perfect.

Well, if we're talking about splitting up Votto & Bruce, yeah a right hander. But I wasn't talking about specifically cleanup. Just a solid lefty that could slot in 2-6 somewhere. If you're looking for a lefty off the bench with some pop...we need to do some restocking of Louisville in that regard. The Bats look to be pretty pedestrian this season and they're not exactly stocked in lefties or switch hitters. I'm just not a big fan of bringing in a power bench guy. I like to have veterans on my bench who can fill holes defensively and can play small ball. I like to have kids on my bench who have bigger potential to fill the power voids. But that's just me.

M2
04-23-2012, 03:26 PM
FWIW, Youk looks worse than his numbers right now. His bat is almost completely in ruins at the moment. And his range at 3B is fairly statuesque. He might be another case of a guy with old player skills take a swift dive after age 30.

My guess is his next stop will be with the A's as a 1B/DH, finally uniting Billy Beane with the Greek God of Walks.

RANDY IN INDY
04-23-2012, 03:44 PM
FWIW, Youk looks worse than his numbers right now. His bat is almost completely in ruins at the moment. And his range at 3B is fairly statuesque. He might be another case of a guy with old player skills take a swift dive after age 30.

My guess is his next stop will be with the A's as a 1B/DH, finally uniting Billy Beane with the Greek God of Walks.

Makes sense.

REDREAD
04-23-2012, 04:59 PM
I'd rather keep Rolen. Rolen still is a great defensive player.

Honestly, it's kind of a crapshoot on which will be the better offensive player this year (in my opinion). Ok, Youk had a hernia last year. Well, Rolen had a bad shoulder. Both have reasonable excuses.

I really don't want to disrupt the team chemistry for what would be at best a minor upgrade. (That's assuming the Sox would do the trade straight up, which I doubt).

The great thing about Rolen is that his glove is so good, the offense doesn't have to be outstanding for him to be an at least average player. If Youk doesn't produce above average offense, he's useless (to the Reds, who can't DH him or put him at 1b).

Benihana
04-23-2012, 05:22 PM
I'd rather keep Rolen. Rolen still is a great defensive player.

Honestly, it's kind of a crapshoot on which will be the better offensive player this year (in my opinion). Ok, Youk had a hernia last year. Well, Rolen had a bad shoulder. Both have reasonable excuses.

I really don't want to disrupt the team chemistry for what would be at best a minor upgrade. (That's assuming the Sox would do the trade straight up, which I doubt).

The great thing about Rolen is that his glove is so good, the offense doesn't have to be outstanding for him to be an at least average player. If Youk doesn't produce above average offense, he's useless (to the Reds, who can't DH him or put him at 1b).

I didn't say I think the Reds will trade Rolen to the Sox for Youkilis. I think Rolen will play out and finish his contract here, and Youkilis will likely sign here after his option is not picked up in Boston.

I'm not even necessarily suggesting this is a great move for the Reds (especially if Youkilis doesn't turn around his awful start to the year), although it could be, but more suggesting that I think it is one that is likely to occur.

blumj
04-23-2012, 07:56 PM
BTW, Youkilis just got married recently, to Tom Brady's sister. I don't think anyone should be looking at him to play 3B regularly anymore, he's never been great at it, and he just keeps getting injured.

REDREAD
04-24-2012, 12:44 PM
I didn't say I think the Reds will trade Rolen to the Sox for Youkilis. I think Rolen will play out and finish his contract here, and Youkilis will likely sign here after his option is not picked up in Boston.

I'm not even necessarily suggesting this is a great move for the Reds (especially if Youkilis doesn't turn around his awful start to the year), although it could be, but more suggesting that I think it is one that is likely to occur.

Yea, I understand.. I was talking hypothetically trading.. not my intention to put words in your mouth.

I would be ok with offering Youk a small contract next year (I guess everyone would), and he would be a great feel good story, I just question whether he's finished or not.

However, 3b is a hard position to fill, I acknowledge that.

RedsManRick
04-24-2012, 01:21 PM
If people like watching Rolen play as a shell of his former self, I think they'll love Youkilis over the next few years.

RedlegJake
04-25-2012, 07:44 PM
If people like watching Rolen play as a shell of his former self, I think they'll love Youkilis over the next few years.

Why? Rolen still makes an occasional eye popping play at third and acquits himself very well defensively. He is no longer the premier third sacker with the glove but he is far from a liability. His bat is another story but Youk may be done at the plate and his glove was NEVER an eye pleaser at third. I fail to see why enjoying Rolen in the field equates with enjoying Youkilis who can't play either way well any longer.

I don't want a guy just because he's a hometown boy. 2 or 3 years ago it might have been a different story. Now its too late. Let him come home as a coach, or as a fan. Let him finish his playing career somewhere else.

Always Red
04-25-2012, 07:48 PM
Why? Rolen still makes an occasional eye popping play at third and acquits himself very well defensively. He is no longer the premier third sacker with the glove but he is far from a liability. His bat is another story but Youk may be done at the plate and his glove was NEVER an eye pleaser at third. I fail to see why enjoying Rolen in the field equates with enjoying Youkilis who can't play either way well any longer.

I don't want a guy just because he's a hometown boy. 2 or 3 years ago it might have been a different story. Now its too late. Let him come home as a coach, or as a fan. Let him finish his playing career somewhere else.

I think it was sarcasm, Jake.

I think many of us are in agreement with what you say above.

RedsManRick
04-25-2012, 07:57 PM
Why? Rolen still makes an occasional eye popping play at third and acquits himself very well defensively. He is no longer the premier third sacker with the glove but he is far from a liability. His bat is another story but Youk may be done at the plate and his glove was NEVER an eye pleaser at third. I fail to see why enjoying Rolen in the field equates with enjoying Youkilis who can't play either way well any longer.

I don't want a guy just because he's a hometown boy. 2 or 3 years ago it might have been a different story. Now its too late. Let him come home as a coach, or as a fan. Let him finish his playing career somewhere else.

Ummm, yeah. That was my point. If he's Rolen without the glove, then he's not an asset.

RedlegJake
04-25-2012, 08:01 PM
Sorry RMR, I usually read the sarcasm pretty well. I must be tired...

jhu1321
04-25-2012, 10:13 PM
I'd rather see Frazier get his shot at 3rd after Rolen's contract expires. Taking on a large salary for an aging Youklis doesn't make much sense to me.

Vottomatic
05-03-2012, 05:07 PM
I think the Reds will make another trade with San Diego and acquire Chase Headley for prospects. Headley can play 3B or LF. He will play platoon in LF this season and occasionally play 3B on Rolen's off days. Then take over at 3B next season.

Big Klu
05-03-2012, 10:50 PM
I think the Reds will make another trade with San Diego and acquire Chase Headley for prospects. Headley can play 3B or LF. He will play platoon in LF this season and occasionally play 3B on Rolen's off days. Then take over at 3B next season.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-qR-FxPpggg8/TtZCfMcrESI/AAAAAAAAGPc/uayf4RO_Soc/s1600/hedleylamarr.jpg

"That's Headley!"

RedsfaninMT
05-03-2012, 10:53 PM
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-qR-FxPpggg8/TtZCfMcrESI/AAAAAAAAGPc/uayf4RO_Soc/s1600/hedleylamarr.jpg

"That's Headley!"

Thanks for giving me a laugh on an otherwise tough day. One of my favorite movies...and old enough to have seen it in theaters.

Plus Plus
05-04-2012, 03:07 AM
I think the Reds will make another trade with San Diego and acquire Chase Headley for prospects. Headley can play 3B or LF. He will play platoon in LF this season and occasionally play 3B on Rolen's off days. Then take over at 3B next season.

I sincerely hope that this happens. I am a big fan of Headley. He also has dramatic splits outside of Petco, which leads me to think that he would have the potential to take off in GABP. The role you describe makes a ton of sense too- and he switch hits!!!

.....Please, Walt?

camisadelgolf
05-04-2012, 04:08 AM
I like Headley as a trade target, too. Between James Darnell (http://www.baseball-reference.com/minors/player.cgi?id=darnel001jam), Jedd Gyorko (http://www.baseball-reference.com/minors/player.cgi?id=gyorko001jed), and Duanel Jones (http://www.baseball-reference.com/minors/player.cgi?id=jones-001dua), they should feel like they have a third baseman of the future elsewhere in the organization. Would anyone be willing to offer Didi Gregorius and Donnie Joseph for Headley? Would it take more/less than that?

mth123
05-04-2012, 07:27 AM
I like Headley as a trade target, too. Between James Darnell (http://www.baseball-reference.com/minors/player.cgi?id=darnel001jam), Jedd Gyorko (http://www.baseball-reference.com/minors/player.cgi?id=gyorko001jed), and Duanel Jones (http://www.baseball-reference.com/minors/player.cgi?id=jones-001dua), they should feel like they have a third baseman of the future elsewhere in the organization. Would anyone be willing to offer Didi Gregorius and Donnie Joseph for Headley? Would it take more/less than that?

I'd do that, but I think the Pads would want more and the Reds may need Joseph if Bray doesn't come around. The Pads may also want something different than a MI since they just got Amerista.

I think the Reds should pursue a deal with the Cubs. Bryan Lahair in LF, even on a platoon basis, would solve a ton of this team's problems. The deal I'd offer that should get the Cubs attention is Mike Leake, Chris Heisey and Chris Valaike for Bryan LaHair, Ryan Dempster, Adrian Cardenas and cash to cover Dempster's salary.

The Cubs would get a young starter who can help anchor the rotation and a useful, under control OF with speed, defense and pop (and flaws) who could serve as an insurance policy for the future Soriano, Jackson, Szcur, Sappelt and Campana OF contingent. Valaika would provide a MI for the minor league emergency contingent. They'd be clearing the way for Anthony Rizzo to take over at 1B.

The Reds would have Lahair under control through 2018 as a lefty bat for LF, the bench, the middle of the order and as an understudy to Votto. Dempster would go into Leake's spot until the end of the year when that spot would be opened for Chapman in 2013 (and the potential arb case that Leake represents would no longer be an issue). Cardenas is a LH hitting 2B who has played SS and 3B who has hit fairly well in the minors and may serve as an alternative to balance the bench a little in place of Harris or Valdez. With the rash of injuries around the league, it may make sense to nab Dempster and Lahair before some team the Reds may be competing with for a play-off spot (like Milwaukee, Philly or Washington for example) go get them.

757690
05-04-2012, 10:07 AM
I'd do that, but I think the Pads would want more and the Reds may need Joseph if Bray doesn't come around. The Pads may also want something different than a MI since they just got Amerista.

I think the Reds should pursue a deal with the Cubs. Bryan Lahair in LF, even on a platoon basis, would solve a ton of this team's problems. The deal I'd offer that should get the Cubs attention is Mike Leake, Chris Heisey and Chris Valaike for Bryan LaHair, Ryan Dempster, Adrian Cardenas and cash to cover Dempster's salary.

The Cubs would get a young starter who can help anchor the rotation and a useful, under control OF with speed, defense and pop (and flaws) who could serve as an insurance policy for the future Soriano, Jackson, Szcur, Sappelt and Campana OF contingent. Valaika would provide a MI for the minor league emergency contingent. They'd be clearing the way for Anthony Rizzo to take over at 1B.

The Reds would have Lahair under control through 2018 as a lefty bat for LF, the bench, the middle of the order and as an understudy to Votto. Dempster would go into Leake's spot until the end of the year when that spot would be opened for Chapman in 2013 (and the potential arb case that Leake represents would no longer be an issue). Cardenas is a LH hitting 2B who has played SS and 3B who has hit fairly well in the minors and may serve as an alternative to balance the bench a little in place of Harris or Valdez. With the rash of injuries around the league, it may make sense to nab Dempster and Lahair before some team the Reds may be competing with for a play-off spot (like Milwaukee, Philly or Washington for example) go get them.

You realize that LaHair is older than Votto, and turns 30 this year? He's on a tear now because of a ridiculous .527 BABIP. Once the league sees him, he's likely to turn into Wily Mo Pena.

As for Headley, I just don't see the Padres trading him. They need more offense, and trading their one young offensive stud makes no sense.

Vottomatic
05-04-2012, 04:45 PM
I'd do that, but I think the Pads would want more and the Reds may need Joseph if Bray doesn't come around. The Pads may also want something different than a MI since they just got Amerista.

I think the Reds should pursue a deal with the Cubs. Bryan Lahair in LF, even on a platoon basis, would solve a ton of this team's problems. The deal I'd offer that should get the Cubs attention is Mike Leake, Chris Heisey and Chris Valaike for Bryan LaHair, Ryan Dempster, Adrian Cardenas and cash to cover Dempster's salary.

The Cubs would get a young starter who can help anchor the rotation and a useful, under control OF with speed, defense and pop (and flaws) who could serve as an insurance policy for the future Soriano, Jackson, Szcur, Sappelt and Campana OF contingent. Valaika would provide a MI for the minor league emergency contingent. They'd be clearing the way for Anthony Rizzo to take over at 1B.

The Reds would have Lahair under control through 2018 as a lefty bat for LF, the bench, the middle of the order and as an understudy to Votto. Dempster would go into Leake's spot until the end of the year when that spot would be opened for Chapman in 2013 (and the potential arb case that Leake represents would no longer be an issue). Cardenas is a LH hitting 2B who has played SS and 3B who has hit fairly well in the minors and may serve as an alternative to balance the bench a little in place of Harris or Valdez. With the rash of injuries around the league, it may make sense to nab Dempster and Lahair before some team the Reds may be competing with for a play-off spot (like Milwaukee, Philly or Washington for example) go get them.

LaHair turns 30 in November. He's played 20 or so games in 2 other seasons with mediocre to average results. I'd be suspicious of his numbers right now. If he pulls a Morse type season, I'd consider him in the offseason if there aren't any better options. And I wouldn't give up much for him.

San Diego needs alot of players. Headley isn't going to make or break that team, but he'd be a good addition to the Reds considering he is a solid third baseman, with Rolen retiring or moving on after the season. I think they'd consider the right offer. Not sure what it is though.

mth123
05-04-2012, 09:11 PM
You realize that LaHair is older than Votto, and turns 30 this year? He's on a tear now because of a ridiculous .527 BABIP. Once the league sees him, he's likely to turn into Wily Mo Pena.

As for Headley, I just don't see the Padres trading him. They need more offense, and trading their one young offensive stud makes no sense.

I realize that Lahair is 29. I don't care. If they have him for three more years, that's probably all they'll have Leake before Leake prices himself out of town. I also realize that Dempster is an upgrade to Leake in the rotation and that the Reds don't have a bat that can do what Lahair could probably do until Lutz arrives. I'd deal Leake for an upgrade in the rotation and a LH platoon OF who could provide 400 productive ABs against RHP. I'm also a believer that Heisey is a 4th OFer (and Stubbs a 5th or a defense first guy who is a glove carried by his teammates). The Reds won't miss those guys.

mth123
05-04-2012, 09:17 PM
LaHair turns 30 in November. He's played 20 or so games in 2 other seasons with mediocre to average results. I'd be suspicious of his numbers right now. If he pulls a Morse type season, I'd consider him in the offseason if there aren't any better options. And I wouldn't give up much for him.

San Diego needs alot of players. Headley isn't going to make or break that team, but he'd be a good addition to the Reds considering he is a solid third baseman, with Rolen retiring or moving on after the season. I think they'd consider the right offer. Not sure what it is though.

The problem with waiting until the offseason is that this season will go down the tubes without an upgrade to the OF. LaHair can hit.

I'd love to have Headley, I just can't figure what the Pads would want for him. If I were them I wouldn't deal him for Leake or Bailey and the Reds can't really deal either of them unless a starter comes back in the deal as well. Perhaps a deal involving Billy Hamilton would get their attention, but I'd say the Reds would need to throw in something else. Maybe Hamilton/Frazier and an arm along the lines of Sulbaran could get it done.

RedlegJake
05-05-2012, 07:18 PM
Hamilton makes little sense as a trade chip - right now he's still in the low minors and a ways from the ML which will depress the return somewhat for such a high talent player. Neftali Soto makes more sense because he's blocked now that Joey has signed LT, he's a high profile, high level prospect and could be bundled with a prospect like Sulbaran for a pretty good return (the Padres wouldn't want Soto, though, with Alonso there).

mth123
05-05-2012, 08:03 PM
Hamilton makes little sense as a trade chip - right now he's still in the low minors and a ways from the ML which will depress the return somewhat for such a high talent player. Neftali Soto makes more sense because he's blocked now that Joey has signed LT, he's a high profile, high level prospect and could be bundled with a prospect like Sulbaran for a pretty good return (the Padres wouldn't want Soto, though, with Alonso there).

I don't think you'd get much for Soto. The only prospect above A+ who may bring much back as a centerpiece of a deal is Corcino IMO.

3B is a black hole for a lot of teams. If you want Headley, go big or stay home because somebody else will.

Benihana
05-05-2012, 11:14 PM
I don't think you'd get much for Soto. The only prospect above A+ who may bring much back as a centerpiece of a deal is Corcino IMO.

3B is a black hole for a lot of teams. If you want Headley, go big or stay home because somebody else will.

I would think DiDi has some trade value at this point. But after that, I agree with your point.

mth123
05-05-2012, 11:20 PM
I would think DiDi has some trade value at this point. But after that, I agree with your point.

I don't see him being a centerpiece for somebody like Headley. Maybe somebody like Garrett Jones or David Dejesus, but not some one like Headley unless there is a bigger fish included going from the Reds.

Johnny Footstool
05-08-2012, 10:23 AM
Youkilis's stock with the Red Sox is at an all-time low, thanks to Will Middlebrooks. If the Reds want him, now is the time to start making offers.

Reds/Flyers Fan
05-09-2012, 02:09 PM
Why the Sox should trade Youkilis:

http://espn.go.com/boston/mlb/story/_/id/7907550/why-boston-red-sox-trade-kevin-youkilis

Benihana
05-09-2012, 08:09 PM
I wonder if he could play LF- at least until Rolen breaks down?

If so, and both teams could be flexible on the salary, I would make an offer of DiDi and Soto. I may also consider an arm but not of Corcino's caliber.

Vottomatic
05-09-2012, 08:27 PM
Lance McAlister is all over this on his show tonight.

My take:
Reds won't do it because Jocketty is extremely loyal to Scott Rolen.
If given the right offer, Reds probably want to do it, and should do it to help the team.

I'd be surprised if this trade went down.

Benihana
05-09-2012, 08:42 PM
Lance McAlister is all over this on his show tonight.

My take:
Reds won't do it because Jocketty is extremely loyal to Scott Rolen.
If given the right offer, Reds probably want to do it, and should do it to help the team.

I'd be surprised if this trade went down.
All the more reason why if he can play LF for a few months, they should pull the trigger.

Even at 60% of his former self, Youk could really help the middle of the lineup.

I'd want to make sure he can be at least 60% though.

Vottomatic
05-09-2012, 09:14 PM
All the more reason why if he can play LF for a few months, they should pull the trigger.

Even at 60% of his former self, Youk could really help the middle of the lineup.

I'd want to make sure he can be at least 60% though.

Well, he only played 120 games in 2011, and 102 games in 2010. Breaking down?

He has played 22 career games in the outfield, and last played 2 games in RF back in 2009. I'm not sure if he played OF extensively in the minor leagues or not.....so I don't know how much experience he has. IF he can play LF, his injury isn't that serious, the Red Sox would pay most of his salary, and the Reds only have to give up someone like Soto or Gregorius, I'd be willing to do it. He could rotate in LF, and play 3B on Rolen's off days. He could play 1B on the 2 or 3 days off Joey takes all year. Basically relegates Frazier to a PH.

I'm not giving up much for an aging player, showing signs of chronic injuries and breaking down, that we don't really need (Rolen, Heisey, Ludwick, Frazier). I could see him giving the team a boost in terms of experience in the postseason, competitiveness, and energy. And hopefully Youk would be revitalized playing in front of his hometown.

It could be interesting. But for the right price.

Benihana
05-09-2012, 10:40 PM
Well, he only played 120 games in 2011, and 102 games in 2010. Breaking down?

He has played 22 career games in the outfield, and last played 2 games in RF back in 2009. I'm not sure if he played OF extensively in the minor leagues or not.....so I don't know how much experience he has. IF he can play LF, his injury isn't that serious, the Red Sox would pay most of his salary, and the Reds only have to give up someone like Soto or Gregorius, I'd be willing to do it. He could rotate in LF, and play 3B on Rolen's off days. He could play 1B on the 2 or 3 days off Joey takes all year. Basically relegates Frazier to a PH.

I'm not giving up much for an aging player, showing signs of chronic injuries and breaking down, that we don't really need (Rolen, Heisey, Ludwick, Frazier). I could see him giving the team a boost in terms of experience in the postseason, competitiveness, and energy. And hopefully Youk would be revitalized playing in front of his hometown.

It could be interesting. But for the right price.

Agreed with all of the above.

Although if he can play 100 games, he'd be a significant upgrade in LF IMO. He's only played 22 games there in his major league career, but so long as he isn't significantly worse than Alonso/Dunn/Gomes in LF, it's worth a try with GGers at basically every other position on the field.

RedEye
05-09-2012, 10:42 PM
While I am skeptical that Youk will be able to stay on the field, the idea of plopping his career .389 OBP into the middle of the lineup -- or heck anywhere in the linep -- is darn tempting.

blumj
05-09-2012, 11:18 PM
Youkilis played LF in Sept. '06, so they could keep Mike Lowell at 3B and play Mark Loretta at 1B while breaking in Pedroia at 2B. He's only played there in emergencies otherwise, and he hates it and is terrible at it. If the Red Sox thought he could play LF, they'd probably play him there themselves, since Crawford's going to be on the DL a while.

Benihana
05-15-2012, 01:25 PM
Doc is now drinking the Kool-Aid

http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20120514/COL03/120514019/Doc-Would-Youkilis-good-fit-?odyssey=tab|topnews|text|FRONTPAGE

Chip R
05-15-2012, 01:54 PM
Hey, Pete Rose played LF.

WKRP in Cincinnati Baseball - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s6aLb1NVTAc)

Tom Servo
05-22-2012, 11:28 PM
Youkilis went 1-3 with a solo HR in his big league return today.

Dom Heffner
05-22-2012, 11:36 PM
I love how the article lays out the Sox three options, none of which they ended up doing.

corkedbat
05-23-2012, 12:01 AM
I'm completely fine with bring Youk home, but the guy I'd really like to have from the Red Sox organization would be Bryce Brentz (AA). He's who I wanted when we took Grandal. I guess Yasmani did help land Latos though. Brentz is one for whom I'd consider a deal that included Blazin Billy.

traderumor
05-23-2012, 12:11 AM
I don't know if he has anything in the tank, but I'm willing to take a look as an alternative to Frazier/Cairo.

WVRedsFan
05-23-2012, 12:20 AM
If anyone remembers the Rolen deal, this is much the same thing. I'm overjoyed that Rolen had two seasons of productivity and brought his class act to Cincy, but now, unless he makes a huge comeback, he is a huge liability. Think you'll see the same with Youkils.

kaldaniels
05-23-2012, 01:28 AM
If anyone remembers the Rolen deal, this is much the same thing. I'm overjoyed that Rolen had two seasons of productivity and brought his class act to Cincy, but now, unless he makes a huge comeback, he is a huge liability. Think you'll see the same with Youkils.

Rolen deal = good

Rolen extension = bad

757690
05-23-2012, 01:57 AM
Rolen deal = good

Rolen extension = bad

The irony is that at the time of the trade, the general complaint against it was that it only made sense if the Reds extended Rolen when they traded for him.

WVRedsFan
05-23-2012, 02:04 AM
Hindsight is 20/20. Always has been and always will be. And yet I don't regret having Rolen on this team for a second. Gotta hope he comes back and contributes. He's good people.

Benihana
05-23-2012, 12:09 PM
Youkilis went 1-3 with a solo HR in his big league return today.

Dusty,
Please play Todd Frazier at 3B everyday for the next month. We will need to make a decision by then as to whether he can be a long-term solution or we need to make a deal for Youk. I will be surprised if Youk is not traded by the All-Star Break. We need to know what we have so we can be in position to make a deal if necessary.

Oh, and while you're at it, please move Chapman into the rotation and move Bruce to the cleanup spot.

Thanks.

bucksfan2
05-23-2012, 12:26 PM
Dusty,
Please play Todd Frazier at 3B everyday for the next month. We will need to make a decision by then as to whether he can be a long-term solution or we need to make a deal for Youk. I will be surprised if Youk is not traded by the All-Star Break. We need to know what we have so we can be in position to make a deal if necessary.

Oh, and while you're at it, please move Chapman into the rotation and move Bruce to the cleanup spot.

Thanks.

Todd Frazier has pretty much gotten the chance to be the everyday 3b ever since Rolen went on the DL. If he has anyone to blame for losing some PT its himself.

Benihana
05-23-2012, 01:20 PM
Todd Frazier has pretty much gotten the chance to be the everyday 3b ever since Rolen went on the DL. If he has anyone to blame for losing some PT its himself.

You mean like last night- where the .513-OPS Miguel Cairo got the start and made an error in the 9th?

Frazier is still OPSing over .800. Why should he be losing PT?

traderumor
05-23-2012, 01:22 PM
You mean like last night- where the .174 batting Miguel Cairo got the start and made an error in the 9th?

Frazier is still OPSing over .800. Why should he be losing PT?Because he needed a day off. He was absolutely clueless Monday night and a righty on the mound last night. Frazier hasn't done anything but club two home runs in a game to pad his numbers at this stage, and he booted balls all weekend against NYY.

RedlegJake
05-23-2012, 01:24 PM
You mean like last night- where the .513-OPS Miguel Cairo got the start and made an error in the 9th?

Frazier is still OPSing over .800. Why should he be losing PT?

I agree with you. How can Frazier ever be expected to prove himself if he shares the job in a 3 way split? I know Valdez and Miggy need to play some too but Frazier should be in the lineup everyday until he quits OPSing better than any of the regulars outside of Joey and Jay. Sitting your 3rd best hitter is dumb. (I don't really think he's 3rd best - but he's better than Cairo and Valdez by a long shot and equal to Heisey and better than Ludwick imo)

Bumstead
05-23-2012, 01:25 PM
Because he needed a day off. He was absolutely clueless Monday night and a righty on the mound last night. Frazier hasn't done anything but club two home runs in a game to pad his numbers at this stage, and he booted balls all weekend against NYY.

He still makes Cairo look like a DSL player at this point. Cairo is basically horrible in the field and can't hit, and he doesn't do anything to try to get on base. Other than that, I think he's a nice fellow.

Bum

CySeymour
05-23-2012, 01:30 PM
but Frazier should be in the lineup everyday until he quits OPSing better than any of the regulars outside of Joey and Jay.

I thought Joey Jay was a pitcher? :dunno:

bucksfan2
05-23-2012, 01:41 PM
You mean like last night- where the .513-OPS Miguel Cairo got the start and made an error in the 9th?

Frazier is still OPSing over .800. Why should he be losing PT?

Really? Your bringing up the fact that Frazier got a night off as a reason he won't get playing time gonig forward?

As a starter, which he has been regularly since Rolen went down, Frazier is OPSing .617. His line is .185/.228/.389 which is putrid. Most of his damage has been early as a pinch hitter. Look I am all for Frazier getting a chance to start at 3b and I think the game logs would show that Dusty is giving him every chance to start. But if we are going to look at to why Frazier is going to get benched he has no one else besides himself to blame. You can't keep running a guy out there with a .617 OPS.

Benihana
05-23-2012, 01:48 PM
Really? Your bringing up the fact that Frazier got a night off as a reason he won't get playing time gonig forward?

As a starter, which he has been regularly since Rolen went down, Frazier is OPSing .617. His line is .185/.228/.389 which is putrid. Most of his damage has been early as a pinch hitter. Look I am all for Frazier getting a chance to start at 3b and I think the game logs would show that Dusty is giving him every chance to start. But if we are going to look at to why Frazier is going to get benched he has no one else besides himself to blame. You can't keep running a guy out there with a .617 OPS.

If the Reds are or become convinced in the next week or two that Frazier is not the answer as the starting 3B, I wouldn't be opposed to bringing up Henry Rodriguez once he gets off the DL and seeing what he can do.

Point being, I think there is a finite period of time before Youkilis gets traded, and I'd like the Reds to be in position to determine whether or not it's worth it making a serious run at him given the in-house alternatives.

Vidal is still likely at least a year or more likely two away, so it pretty much comes down to Frazier or H-Rod if we have the right guy in house.

Benihana
05-23-2012, 01:50 PM
Really? Your bringing up the fact that Frazier got a night off as a reason he won't get playing time gonig forward?

As a starter, which he has been regularly since Rolen went down, Frazier is OPSing .617. His line is .185/.228/.389 which is putrid. Most of his damage has been early as a pinch hitter. Look I am all for Frazier getting a chance to start at 3b and I think the game logs would show that Dusty is giving him every chance to start. But if we are going to look at to why Frazier is going to get benched he has no one else besides himself to blame. You can't keep running a guy out there with a .617 OPS.

He's started 13 games. That's not even 1/12 of a season. I don't really think that's a fair crack to determine if a guy has a long term future at a position.

IslandRed
05-23-2012, 01:55 PM
Look I am all for Frazier getting a chance to start at 3b and I think the game logs would show that Dusty is giving him every chance to start. But if we are going to look at to why Frazier is going to get benched he has no one else besides himself to blame. You can't keep running a guy out there with a .617 OPS.

I guess you can if the other options are as bad or worse.

Didn't have a problem with giving him a night off, though. A chance to clear the head is one of the usual remedies for a guy scuffling a bit.

puca
05-23-2012, 02:07 PM
I had no problem with resting Frazier either. He has been struggling as of late, Cairo needs to get occassional ABs if you want him to produce as a PH, and spot starting Cairo seems to often result in a big night from Miggy.

Now if Frazier sits for more than a few games before is back in the lineup then I will have an issue.

bucksfan2
05-23-2012, 02:35 PM
He's started 13 games. That's not even 1/12 of a season. I don't really think that's a fair crack to determine if a guy has a long term future at a position.

But your reaction to me was that the Reds weren't going to give him a chance to play. They have given him every chance to earn that 3b job, both now, and in the future. The issue is with any prospect of Frazier's ilk is there is a finite period of time when they have a chance to win the job. It gets even shorter if a team is expecting to contend in a given year. If Frazier continues to play like he has he won't deserve the chance to play on a regular basis. 1/12 of a season quickly becomes 1/6 and then 1/2 of a season.

The window to trade Youkilis is what? There may be some trade interest between the two teams and there may not be. I am not going to get up in arms if they don't trade for him. I feel trades in baseball are much more complicated than suggesting them on message boards. I like the idea of entertaining Youk but at what time and what cost?

Bumstead
05-23-2012, 02:43 PM
I guess the question is: is a .617OPS (sliced how you wanted it, while I ignore that his OPS is .800+ overall) higher than a .513OPS?

Is it better to play a young player that is showing some promise or a veteran that is showing his age? I don't have a problem with the day off as long as it doesn't turn into an every other day thing so that we can bat the .513 aging player that can't field at all, that can't get on base at all, and is probably getting close to be completely useless as a MLB player.

Bum

Benihana
05-23-2012, 02:53 PM
But your reaction to me was that the Reds weren't going to give him a chance to play. They have given him every chance to earn that 3b job, both now, and in the future. The issue is with any prospect of Frazier's ilk is there is a finite period of time when they have a chance to win the job. It gets even shorter if a team is expecting to contend in a given year. If Frazier continues to play like he has he won't deserve the chance to play on a regular basis. 1/12 of a season quickly becomes 1/6 and then 1/2 of a season.

The window to trade Youkilis is what? There may be some trade interest between the two teams and there may not be. I am not going to get up in arms if they don't trade for him. I feel trades in baseball are much more complicated than suggesting them on message boards. I like the idea of entertaining Youk but at what time and what cost?

Like I said, I'd be surprised if Youk is still in Boston two months from now. So we have two months to see if we should or shouldn't make a play. All I want is for the Reds to maximize the opportunity during those two months. If it's a day off, fine. If it's more than that, it's not.

And it's not just Youk. The Reds have two months to determine whether they should acquire anyone (due to the trade deadline). For Youk specifically, it could easily be considerably less than that. I wouldn't trade the farm for him, but if Frazier can't hack it I think Youk would bring some value. It all depends on the cost, of course, and his ability to stay healthy and produce.

traderumor
05-23-2012, 02:59 PM
Really? Your bringing up the fact that Frazier got a night off as a reason he won't get playing time gonig forward?

As a starter, which he has been regularly since Rolen went down, Frazier is OPSing .617. His line is .185/.228/.389 which is putrid. Most of his damage has been early as a pinch hitter. Look I am all for Frazier getting a chance to start at 3b and I think the game logs would show that Dusty is giving him every chance to start. But if we are going to look at to why Frazier is going to get benched he has no one else besides himself to blame. You can't keep running a guy out there with a .617 OPS.But he hit two homers a week ago. Just hit him cleanup and leave him alone ;)

mth123
05-23-2012, 09:05 PM
This isn't popular, but Frazier is the IF version of Jonny Gomes IMO. He's a bit of a butcher in the field, (but not EdE bad) and will probably struggle with RHP. He hits lefty pitching well and could play in that role, but probably doesn't have enough bat to play against RHP.

Frazier is over-rated because he came out of college as a seasoned player and beat up on less advanced competition in Billings and Dayton. That was followed by BA naming him top prospect based on the completely false assumption that the Reds had him ticketed as the 2B of the future. Without those two deceiving events, Frazier would have never been more than a middling prospect. He can be a decent role player, but he's not the 3B of the future. His best role is probably the role Miguel Cairo has played the last couple of years. At a minimum, he needs a platoon partner to even be a part of the answer at 3B. JMO.

Benihana
05-23-2012, 10:09 PM
This isn't popular, but Frazier is the IF version of Jonny Gomes IMO. He's a bit of a butcher in the field, (but not EdE bad) and will probably struggle with RHP. He hits lefty pitching well and could play in that role, but probably doesn't have enough bat to play against RHP.

Frazier is over-rated because he came out of college as a seasoned player and beat up on less advanced competition in Billings and Dayton. That was followed by BA naming him top prospect based on the completely false assumption that the Reds had him ticketed as the 2B of the future. Without those two deceiving events, Frazier would have never been more than a middling prospect. He can be a decent role player, but he's not the 3B of the future. His best role is probably the role Miguel Cairo has played the last couple of years. At a minimum, he needs a platoon partner to even be a part of the answer at 3B. JMO.
The fact that he was a first (sandwich) round pick probably contributes to his overratedness. This is part of the reason why I am generally opposed to drafting polished college players without any standout tools- at least in the first couple rounds. Maybe they make it to the majors, but they'll rarely become everyday starters let alone impact players.

That said, I'd still like to give Frazier a fair crack at the job over the next few weeks at least.

redsmetz
06-01-2012, 01:20 PM
Via mlbtraderumors, CBS Sports reports, not surprisingly, that the Bosox intend to trade Youklis this season. The report does not mention the Reds among the suitors. Likewise, if Rolen will be back this season (and I understand that's a big caveat), I don't know that we have a place for him, local favorite notwithstanding. I suspect other clubs will pay more than we would, as it is.

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2012/06/red-sox-intend-to-trade-kevin-youkilis.html?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=facebook

VR
06-01-2012, 02:48 PM
Via mlbtraderumors, CBS Sports reports, not surprisingly, that the Bosox intend to trade Youklis this season. The report does not mention the Reds among the suitors. Likewise, if Rolen will be back this season (and I understand that's a big caveat), I don't know that we have a place for him, local favorite notwithstanding. I suspect other clubs will pay more than we would, as it is.

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2012/06/red-sox-intend-to-trade-kevin-youkilis.html?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=facebook

IF he's healthy...he'd be a great addition for a rental the last 1/3 of the year...even if Rolen is back.

I wouldn't overpay....but I could see him as a very very valuable veteran bat.

redsmetz
06-01-2012, 03:09 PM
IF he's healthy...he'd be a great addition for a rental the last 1/3 of the year...even if Rolen is back.

I wouldn't overpay....but I could see him as a very very valuable veteran bat.

I guess I'll have to change my thoughts on that. I suspect the price would be quite an overpay, that others will outbid us. But you're probably right that he would be a good bat to add and might even have some extra oomph playing in front of the hometown crowd.

Benihana
06-01-2012, 03:50 PM
Would you trade Lotzkar, Cingrani or Lutz for him? I'd imagine that would be a starting point in negotiations (assuming the Reds woul not trade Corcino or Hamilton for him).

RedlegJake
06-01-2012, 03:50 PM
My bet is no way the Reds go after him. As long as Frazier continues to produce the job is going to be more and more his and seen less and less as a problem. Left Field is where I'd concentrate my efforts now - look for a left fielder with either cleanup potential or leadoff credentials. Frazier, with regular play, may just be good enough to get the job done at third. Don't try to solve a problem through trade that may not be a problem any longer. Left field - and either a true leadoff hitter, or a cleanup hitter, is the big hole, imo.

I called for a Ludwick resurrection this past winter and I was dead wrong about him. Heisey is a great 4th outfielder but he's not an everyday player. Either get a true platoon outfielder (Seth Smith?) to swap roles with Chris or a full timer (Willingham? DeJesus?).

Let Frazier man third - he's earned it at this point, at least enough to aim the few resources available to trade at left field where the real problem is. Of course, if a deal could be swing for Headley, I'd be all in favor of letting Frazier go to left but there aren't many thrid basemen that might be available that I really want. Youk isn't one of them. He's overpaid at this point, old, prone to the DL and we already have that in Rolen.

The best available players are outfielders - go after one of them.

camisadelgolf
06-01-2012, 04:07 PM
Unless some injuries happen, the only teams I could see making a run for Youkilis are the White Sox, Dodgers, and Brewers. The Brewers need a first baseman, the Dodgers should option Dee Gordon (and move Uribe to shortstop), and the White Sox' Brent Morel just isn't getting things done.

So keeping with my fantasy of obtaining Youkilis, what would the Reds need to give up? I have no idea. I can acknowledge that this would be seen as a gross overpay by Reds fans, but maybe this is what it would take:

Reds give up:
OF Ryan Ludwick + LHP Tony Cingrani + RHP Homer Bailey

Red Sox give up:
3B Kevin Youkilis + OF Che-Hsuan Lin + cash (enough to balance things out)

bucksfan2
06-01-2012, 05:05 PM
Would you trade Lotzkar, Cingrani or Lutz for him? I'd imagine that would be a starting point in negotiations (assuming the Reds woul not trade Corcino or Hamilton for him).

I think any trade for Youk would start around either Homer or Leake.

I think (maybe hope?) that Boston will give Youk a "choice" as to where he wants to go. I don't think they really want to turn off a player of his stature in Boston. If the Reds can put a comparable offer on the table I think they are the front runners for Youk. That said I wonder if they even are going to entertain the idea.

I think that a team with Youk at 3b and Frazier as the super utility guy is a pretty darn good team.

redsmetz
06-01-2012, 05:10 PM
I think any trade for Youk would start around either Homer or Leake.

I think (maybe hope?) that Boston will give Youk a "choice" as to where he wants to go. I don't think they really want to turn off a player of his stature in Boston. If the Reds can put a comparable offer on the table I think they are the front runners for Youk. That said I wonder if they even are going to entertain the idea.

I think that a team with Youk at 3b and Frazier as the super utility guy is a pretty darn good team.

When my wife & I visited Boston last year, every time we told anyone at Fenway that we were from Cincy, to a person, they'd all call out "Youk!". Seriously, they adored him up there.

lollipopcurve
06-01-2012, 06:29 PM
Youk is not the player he was. In no way should the Reds be giving up any talent of consequence for him this year. Let him prove he can be that guy he was two years ago, here over the course of the rest of the year. He's already said he'd like to come to Cincy. That gives the Reds a leg up on acquiring him in free agency (it's a pretty safe assumption he'll be on the market). BY then we'll know if he's worth much. Right now his bad back and hip make him something of a statue in the field. Combine that with fading offensive numbers and you've got a player who's aging early.

Look at the guy he is, not the guy he was.

PuffyPig
06-01-2012, 07:27 PM
I think any trade for Youk would start around either Homer or Leake.



If the Reds offered Bailey or Leake for Youk the BoSox would quickly accept and run for the hills giggling all the way.

Over his last 32 starts Bailey has a 2 WAR and an xFIP below 4. Leake is about the same. That has a fair bit of value to the Reds.

_Sir_Charles_
06-01-2012, 07:30 PM
If the Reds offered Bailey or Leake for Youk the BoSox would quickly accept and run for the hills giggling all the way.

This. People here are overvaluing Youkilis' worth right now. This is NOT the same guy anymore.

Personally, I'd pass on him. Let Frazier have it until he proves that he CAN'T.

Degenerate39
06-01-2012, 09:39 PM
This. People here are overvaluing Youkilis' worth right now. This is NOT the same guy anymore.

Personally, I'd pass on him. Let Frazier have it until he proves that he CAN'T.

What about Frazier in left field?

DGullett35
06-01-2012, 09:46 PM
Id rather get Youk in the offseason when he is a FA rather then give up something for him. Also Rolen would be gone so it would make more sense. I say pass and I agree with you guys to let Frazier have 3rd unless he proves he cant play there. LF is the bigger need.

mdccclxix
06-01-2012, 10:05 PM
I don't think the Reds would sign Youk before it was determined Rolen can't play.

Spitball
06-01-2012, 10:06 PM
Because of injuries, I believe Youkilis very likely will stay in Boston. It will depend on the severity of Pedroia's torn adductor muscle in his thumb. If it requires surgery, it looks possible that Youkilis stays at third, Will Middlebrooks moves to shortstop, and Mike Aviles moves to second.

Even if Pedroia stays in the line-up, the Sox might opt to keep the versatile Youkilis if the outfield situation doesn't get healthy. Youk's ability to play first allows Gonzalez to move to right and the Sox to post their most potent line-up.

mdccclxix
06-01-2012, 10:08 PM
Youk for Arroyo is almost a nice match, though.

klw
06-01-2012, 10:16 PM
Youk for Arroyo is almost a nice match, though.

Jeff Francis for Youk is more likely.

_Sir_Charles_
06-01-2012, 10:17 PM
What about Frazier in left field?

He's really not that good out there. IMO 3rd is his best position.

camisadelgolf
06-01-2012, 11:00 PM
He's really not that good out there. IMO 3rd is his best position.
I beg to differ. I've watched Frazier play dozens of times at both positions, and I like him a little more in left field than I do third base.

_Sir_Charles_
06-01-2012, 11:38 PM
Agree to disagree. I think we've had this discussion before. No point in rehashing it.

traderumor
06-01-2012, 11:54 PM
Youk for Arroyo is almost a nice match, though.
We'd get ripped off in that deal. Arroyo is doing his job in the rotation. Not sure Youkilis would be able to make up for the hole in the rotation.

Sabo Fan
06-02-2012, 12:01 AM
I mentioned this in the trade target thread, but I think there's a match with Boston, something along the lines of Ludwick & Arrendondo for Youkilis. Red Sox need OFers and bullpen arms. Might take Heisey though if the Reds want the BoSox to pick up a portion of Youk's contract. Not sure I'm nuts about that deal though.

Like others have said I don't think anything happens until a decision is made on Rolen.

traderumor
06-02-2012, 12:04 AM
I mentioned this in the trade target thread, but I think there's a match with Boston, something along the lines of Ludwick & Arrendondo for Youkilis. Red Sox need OFers and bullpen arms. Might take Heisey though if the Reds want the BoSox to pick up a portion of Youk's contract. Not sure I'm nuts about that deal though.

Like others have said I don't think anything happens until a decision is made on Rolen.Now you're really overpaying. If the Reds gave up anything of real value to them like Arredondo, I'll be furious. And I'm not even a big Arredondo fan.

RedlegJake
06-02-2012, 12:14 AM
If Youk costs more than a fringe minor leaguer or two, and Boston doesn't pay most of his contract I'd be furious too. No way he should cost more than that. Injury prone guy at the tail end of his career? I'd be willing to give up that much because he'd improve the bench but he wouldn't replace Frazier or Heisey as starters, imo. He'd be a spot starter and PHer.

corkedbat
06-02-2012, 01:20 AM
I'd be more than willing to give the BoSox a pretty nice package for Youk (as long as they included Bryce Brentz on their end).

mth123
06-02-2012, 02:20 AM
I'd be more than willing to give the BoSox a pretty nice package for Youk (as long as they included Bryce Brentz on their end).

Youk missed tonight's game with back problems. Its going to plague him and he isn't much of a 3B. This version of Youk interests me a lot less than the Youk most people are thinking of. If we could get him for Ludwick straight up with the Sox paying the Salary difference it would be OK, otherwise, I wouldn't give up value for him when it could be dealt for something else.

The Reds really need lefty hitting. They need one to platoon in LF another to platoon at or play 3B and another who is a bench player who can PH.

Heisey, Hamilton and Sulbaran (or Lotzkar etc) for Chase Headley (Switch Hitter), Will Venable and Mark Kotsay. Deal Ludwick for a PTBNL to some tean that needs an OF, DFA Costanzo.

Against RHP

Venable LF/CF
Phillips 2B
Votto 1B
Headley 3B
Bruce RF
Mesigan C
Stubbs CF/Frazier LF
Cozart SS

Against LHP
Cozart SS
Phillips 2B
Votto 1B
Headley 3B
Bruce RF
Mesigan C
Frazier LF
Stubbs CF


Kotsay, Valdes and Cairo would round out the bench.

RedlegJake
06-02-2012, 03:14 AM
Hamilton, Heisey and Sulburan for Headley, Kotsay and Venable? Sure right now this instant. No way the Padres do that.

mth123
06-02-2012, 03:25 AM
Hamilton, Heisey and Sulburan for Headley, Kotsay and Venable? Sure right now this instant. No way the Padres do that.

You are probably right. I think Headley has a lot of value. Kotsay and Venable won't bring much. Heisey, Hamilton and an arm (I'd do Corcino if need be) might interest them. Hamilton, if he's going to be a major leaguer, might be a guy who is made for Petco.

I'd do Heisey and a minor league arm for Venable and Kotsay. If upgrading the arm and adding Hamilton couldn't bring Headley, I can see that, but the Pads have some 3B guys coming and need a lot of help elsewhere.

Either way, the point is that the Reds need to add multiple LH bats and probably not some injury question mark like Youk if its going to cost some of the top minor league guys.

RedlegJake
06-02-2012, 04:45 AM
I agree with you about Youk. Hamilton, Heisey and Corcino for Headley, Kotsay and Venable might interest them. Corcino upgrades the package a lot.

DGullett35
06-02-2012, 07:40 AM
Headley has the OBP that this lineup needs, and getting him out of petco would help his power numbers tremendously. IMO however I think the Reds brass is going to hold out hope that Rolen comes back healthy and will be able to hit in this lineup. I see the Reds possibly upgrading LF and getting a LH bat but the 3rd base situation will likely have to wait until the offseason.

mth123
06-02-2012, 08:25 AM
Headley has the OBP that this lineup needs, and getting him out of petco would help his power numbers tremendously. IMO however I think the Reds brass is going to hold out hope that Rolen comes back healthy and will be able to hit in this lineup. I see the Reds possibly upgrading LF and getting a LH bat but the 3rd base situation will likely have to wait until the offseason.

Probably right. They've been making the mistake of relying too much on Rolen since 2010 and this mediocre offense VS RHP is what they've been left with.

Sabo Fan
06-02-2012, 09:55 AM
Now you're really overpaying. If the Reds gave up anything of real value to them like Arredondo, I'll be furious. And I'm not even a big Arredondo fan.

If you want Boston to pay a chunk of Youkilis' salary you're going to have to give up something more than just warm bodies. Ludwick's remaining contract isn't nearly enough to offset Youk's, and without the Sox kicking in some extra cash I'd say it limits anything else the Reds could do this year. I'm hedging my bet here by saying that this had to be for a healthy Youkilis, which I'm not so sure is realistic anyway.

Let's not overstate Arrendondo's value. He's a nice arm to have in the bullpen, but he's not a high-leverage guy. Between his inconsistent stuff and maddening mental mistakes, he could implode at any time and I'd trust pretty much anyone in that bullpen more than him in a tight spot. Simon could fill his role and pretty much not miss a beat, plus you've got Masset and Bray still to come back and that means two someones have to go. Cash in Arrendondo while you can.

mdccclxix
06-02-2012, 10:29 AM
Not comfortable giving a top 25 prospect for Headley.

RedlegJake
06-02-2012, 10:30 AM
If you want Boston to pay a chunk of Youkilis' salary you're going to have to give up something more than just warm bodies. Ludwick's remaining contract isn't nearly enough to offset Youk's, and without the Sox kicking in some extra cash I'd say it limits anything else the Reds could do this year. I'm hedging my bet here by saying that this had to be for a healthy Youkilis, which I'm not so sure is realistic anyway.

Let's not overstate Arrendondo's value. He's a nice arm to have in the bullpen, but he's not a high-leverage guy. Between his inconsistent stuff and maddening mental mistakes, he could implode at any time and I'd trust pretty much anyone in that bullpen more than him in a tight spot. Simon could fill his role and pretty much not miss a beat, plus you've got Masset and Bray still to come back and that means two someones have to go. Cash in Arrendondo while you can.

Cash him in, yes. Wrong target, though, imo.

traderumor
06-02-2012, 10:37 AM
If you want Boston to pay a chunk of Youkilis' salary you're going to have to give up something more than just warm bodies. Ludwick's remaining contract isn't nearly enough to offset Youk's, and without the Sox kicking in some extra cash I'd say it limits anything else the Reds could do this year. I'm hedging my bet here by saying that this had to be for a healthy Youkilis, which I'm not so sure is realistic anyway.

Let's not overstate Arrendondo's value. He's a nice arm to have in the bullpen, but he's not a high-leverage guy. Between his inconsistent stuff and maddening mental mistakes, he could implode at any time and I'd trust pretty much anyone in that bullpen more than him in a tight spot. Simon could fill his role and pretty much not miss a beat, plus you've got Masset and Bray still to come back and that means two someones have to go. Cash in Arrendondo while you can.I would say you are overstating Youkilis' value with this package. Arredondo for an old war horse? No thanks. Weakens the bullpen too much until Masset gets back AND starts performing. If Masset returns and starts performing, then maybe a righty from the bullpen could be used to fill an offensive hole. Personally, I think Youkilis is a terrible idea. If he didn't have that romantic idea of "coming home" attached to him, I doubt his name would even come up around these parts. I'd look elsewhere for 3B and offensive help.

mth123
06-02-2012, 11:18 AM
Not comfortable giving a top 25 prospect for Headley.

I get it. I'm a skeptic where steal guys are concerned. The best of them (Henderson, Brock, Morgan, Cobb, etc.) are usually valuable because they get on base and have some power. The rest really aren't that valuable. Its more likely that Hamilton becomes Tom Goodwin or Willy Taveras than a game changing force. If I could deal him for top 10 production at a position of need, I'm all in.

traderumor
06-02-2012, 12:25 PM
I get it. I'm a skeptic where steal guys are concerned. The best of them (Henderson, Brock, Morgan, Cobb, etc.) are usually valuable because they get on base and have some power. The rest really aren't that valuable. Its more likely that Hamilton becomes Tom Goodwin or Willy Taveras than a game changing force. If I could deal him for top 10 production at a position of need, I'm all in.I wouldn't give up Hamilton so easy. An org. that hasn't had a legit leadoff hitter in years and he is progressing nicely through the org. and is showing an ability to get on base at the low levels? He could be ready just about the time Stubbs is getting expensive for average production. Not sure I'd make the mortgage for soup and a sandwich today, esp. in light of the prospects traded for Latos.

mth123
06-02-2012, 12:52 PM
I wouldn't give up Hamilton so easy. An org. that hasn't had a legit leadoff hitter in years and he is progressing nicely through the org. and is showing an ability to get on base at the low levels? He could be ready just about the time Stubbs is getting expensive for average production. Not sure I'd make the mortgage for soup and a sandwich today, esp. in light of the prospects traded for Latos.

Headley would solve 3B for several years. More than a soup and a sandwich IMO.

Willy Taveras at low A. Age 20, OBP .385, Walk Rate 11.8%
Willy Taveras at A+, Age 21, OBP .381. Walk Rate 11.1%

Hamilton's abilty to get on base in the big leagues is still a huge question IMO. Those walk rates (and accompaning OBPs) are likely to dry up unless he can show some ability to make a pitcher pay for pitching to him. Walking him is the absolute last thing pitchers wants to do. I just don't see it happening in the majors unless he adds a significant amount of power. I'd gladly deal him for 3 years of an above average player at a spot where the Reds project to have a huge hole.

If Hamilton were to become, say Vince Coleman, I'd rather have 2 and a half years of Headley than 6 years of Coleman.

RedlegJake
06-02-2012, 01:01 PM
mth, the only problem is I don;t think 3rd is a huge hole. It's a bit of a problem but with Frazier it's not a problem really. Headley would be a definite upgrade but it's not like Frazier is a black hole and third is the Reds achilles heel. Frazier could, of course, shift to left, but his bat is much less attractive there. Not a leadoff hitter, not a true cleanup slugger so Frazier in left doesn't solve anything. You have upgraded a spot and strengthened the bench with that trade but made left just as weak as it was and still don't have a true leadoff or cleanup hitter. That's about my only problem with acquiring Headley. He upgrades what the Reds already have but doesn't solve what they really need.

dougdirt
06-02-2012, 01:06 PM
mth, the only problem is I don;t think 3rd is a huge hole. It's a bit of a problem but with Frazier it's not a problem really. Headley would be a definite upgrade but it's not like Frazier is a black hole and third is the Reds achilles heel. Frazier could, of course, shift to left, but his bat is much less attractive there. Not a leadoff hitter, not a true cleanup slugger so Frazier in left doesn't solve anything. You have upgraded a spot and strengthened the bench with that trade but made left just as weak as it was and still don't have a true leadoff or cleanup hitter. That's about my only problem with acquiring Headley. He upgrades what the Reds already have but doesn't solve what they really need.

The problem is, the Reds aren't going to acquire a left fielder who hits leadoff, because left fielders don't bat leadoff and teams aren't trading true clean up hitters.

RedsManRick
06-02-2012, 01:08 PM
Headley has the OBP that this lineup needs, and getting him out of petco would help his power numbers tremendously. IMO however I think the Reds brass is going to hold out hope that Rolen comes back healthy and will be able to hit in this lineup. I see the Reds possibly upgrading LF and getting a LH bat but the 3rd base situation will likely have to wait until the offseason.

Agreed. I don't think there's any chance of them brining in a definite starting 3B so long as there's a real chance of Rolen coming back healthy. That said, there's a reasonable chance Rolen is cooked and basically tells the team he's willing to be a backup for the rest of the season if they have something else they can make happen.

mth123
06-02-2012, 01:13 PM
mth, the only problem is I don;t think 3rd is a huge hole. It's a bit of a problem but with Frazier it's not a problem really. Headley would be a definite upgrade but it's not like Frazier is a black hole and third is the Reds achilles heel. Frazier could, of course, shift to left, but his bat is much less attractive there. Not a leadoff hitter, not a true cleanup slugger so Frazier in left doesn't solve anything. You have upgraded a spot and strengthened the bench with that trade but made left just as weak as it was and still don't have a true leadoff or cleanup hitter. That's about my only problem with acquiring Headley. He upgrades what the Reds already have but doesn't solve what they really need.

Disagree. Frazier is a poor defender at 3B and doesn't get on base enough against RH to be the every day solution. He'll hit the occassional HR and had a good game that bumped his slugging for now, but I don't see him being a guy to have in the line-up against RHP. They are already somewhat stuck with low OBP, medium power RH up the middle with Phillips, Stubbs and Cozart. Other positions need something different and that isn't Frazier IMO.

corkedbat
06-02-2012, 01:23 PM
Headley has the OBP that this lineup needs, and getting him out of petco would help his power numbers tremendously. IMO however I think the Reds brass is going to hold out hope that Rolen comes back healthy and will be able to hit in this lineup. I see the Reds possibly upgrading LF and getting a LH bat but the 3rd base situation will likely have to wait until the offseason.

At this point, I'm afraid I have more of a chance of playing a healthy thirdbase for the Reds than Rolen does. Scotty's the poster child for gamers, but I'm beginning to believe he's toast The Reds certainly shouldn't be operating under the assumption that they'll get much that is meaningful from him again. Of course, they should have been working from the same assumption before they signed him to an extension, but I digress.

mth123
06-24-2012, 06:04 PM
To the White Sox for Zach Stewart.

dougdirt
06-24-2012, 06:12 PM
To the White Sox for Zach Stewart.

What aging 3B is he going to be traded for next? Adrian Beltre in 3 years?

Revering4Blue
06-24-2012, 06:32 PM
Youkilis was traded to the White Sox in exchange for pitching prospect Zach Stewart and utility player Brent Lillibridge, according to a White Sox official familiar with the deal. The person spoke to USA TODAY Sports on the condition of anonymity because the trade has not been announced.

westofyou
06-24-2012, 06:34 PM
What aging 3B is he going to be traded for next? Adrian Beltre in 3 years?

He is a well traveled man is he not?

traderumor
06-24-2012, 06:50 PM
He is a well traveled man is he not?And still searching for that elusive first Cy Young Award.

Benihana
06-24-2012, 07:09 PM
Traded to the White Sox for Zach Stewart of all people.

http://content.usatoday.com/communities/dailypitch/post/2012/06/kevin-youkilis-boston-red-sox-trade/1#.T-ePrhdfHCd

mth123
06-24-2012, 07:42 PM
I think the Sox won this deal.

blumj
06-24-2012, 07:45 PM
I think the Sox won this deal.
Obviously ;)

mth123
06-24-2012, 07:49 PM
Obviously ;)

What? You expect me to name colors now?

blumj
06-24-2012, 08:42 PM
In all seriousness, I think the Red Sox probably sold too low, I don't believe Youkilis is done at 33, but time will tell on that. Mostly I just HATE that he isn't a Red Sox anymore, it feels wrong.

Benihana
06-24-2012, 08:45 PM
I still think there may be a decent chance of Youkilis being the Reds' next 3B...if he is a cheaper alternative to signing a mashing LF this offseason.

He could be the seasoned veteran with playoff experience that replaces Rolen and Cairo on the roster.

Of course, we'll see how Frazier and Henry Rodriguez perform the rest of this season, and we'll see how much of a hometown discount (in both money and potentially playing time) Youk is willing to take.

hebroncougar
06-24-2012, 09:04 PM
I still think there may be a decent chance of Youkilis being the Reds' next 3B...if he is a cheaper alternative to signing a mashing LF this offseason.

He could be the seasoned veteran with playoff experience that replaces Rolen and Cairo on the roster.

Of course, we'll see how Frazier and Henry Rodriguez perform the rest of this season, and we'll see how much of a hometown discount (in both money and potentially playing time) Youk is willing to take.

That's exactly what I am thinking.

Tom Servo
06-24-2012, 09:07 PM
And still searching for that elusive first Cy Young Award.
:D

Always Red
06-24-2012, 09:13 PM
If Zach Stewart pitched for Dave Duncan, he would have won that Cy Young Award by now. :)

Kc61
06-25-2012, 01:29 AM
Zach Stewart is getting traded so often, he'll be back with the Reds before Rolen retires.

Now that would be winning a trade.

Kc61
06-25-2012, 01:29 AM
Zach Stewart is getting traded so often, he'll be back with the Reds before Rolen retires.

Now that would be winning a trade.

redsmetz
06-25-2012, 09:48 AM
What? You expect me to name colors now?

When we're told that everything one learned in life, they learned in kindergarten, is that too much to ask? :laugh:

Unassisted
06-25-2012, 10:41 AM
I stopped in here expecting to see more discussion about the inclusion of Stewart in that deal. He used to have a contingent of folks here who were sorry to see him leave the Reds.

edabbs44
06-25-2012, 10:50 AM
Zach has a 16-10-4 K-HR-BB ratio in 30 innings this year. Not a misprint.

The Operator
06-25-2012, 11:10 AM
Mr. Stewart will have quite the collection of uniforms.

Benihana
06-25-2012, 11:40 AM
Mr. Stewart will have quite the collection of uniforms.

There aren't that many former top prospects who had four different uniforms before their 26th birthday.

Brett Wallace and Ted Lilly are two that comes to mind. Who else?

Carlos Pena, Michael Taylor, Andrew Miller and Adrian Gonzalez all had three.

powersackers
06-25-2012, 12:51 PM
There aren't that many former top prospects who had four different uniforms before their 26th birthday.

Brett Wallace and Ted Lilly are two that comes to mind. Who else?

Carlos Pena, Michael Taylor, Andrew Miller and Adrian Gonzalez all had three.

He was only a top prospect because he played in a very weak Toronto system. He was the No. 15 Reds prospect, then once traded he was No. 1 in Toronto. His minor league stats such as WHIP and K's/9 never should have rated him as a highly touted prospect IMHO. After his 2009 small sample size splits he's basically been very hittable.

Benihana
06-25-2012, 01:10 PM
He was only a top prospect because he played in a very weak Toronto system. He was the No. 15 Reds prospect, then once traded he was No. 1 in Toronto. His minor league stats such as WHIP and K's/9 never should have rated him as a highly touted prospect IMHO. After his 2009 small sample size splits he's basically been very hittable.

I would argue that Zach Stewart was the #1 pitching prospect in the Reds organization at the time of the trade. Mike Leake and Aroldis Chapman hadn't been signed yet.

The amount of hand-wringing that went on at the time of the trade on this board was outrageous. In fact, one notable poster guaranteed he would go on to win multiple Cy Young Awards. Stewart was, at least by Reds' (and Redszoners') standards, a top prospect.

camisadelgolf
06-25-2012, 02:30 PM
Stewart was one of the most overrated prospects I've ever seen on RedsZone. All the excitement was based on his statistics instead of his stuff.

edabbs44
06-25-2012, 02:33 PM
Stewart was one of the most overrated prospects I've ever seen on RedsZone. All the excitement was based on his statistics instead of his stuff.

That's quite the claim. Many a prospect have been overrated by "the board".

But I agree. Though a few more former prospects are staking a claim in 2012.

Benihana
06-25-2012, 02:49 PM
Stewart was one of the most overrated prospects I've ever seen on RedsZone. All the excitement was based on his statistics instead of his stuff.

Here are some others for your consideration:

Ben Broussard
Ricardo Aramboles
Brandon Claussen
Chris Denorfia
Dave Sappelt
Ronald Torreyes
Yonder Alonso? (the thought that people were considering moving Joey Votto to make room for him? HA!)

REDREAD
06-25-2012, 03:05 PM
Here are some others for your consideration:

Ben Broussard
Ricardo Aramboles
Brandon Claussen
Chris Denorfia
Dave Sappelt
Ronald Torreyes
Yonder Alonso? (the thought that people were considering moving Joey Votto to make room for him? HA!)

Chris Dickerson (all the lobbying for him to get more playing time).

And in the old days.. Buddy Carlyle (maybe that was on fastball).. all the teeth gnashing for trading him for Kroon.

I'm sure there are more.. but those two came to mind the quickest.

Tom Servo
06-25-2012, 03:18 PM
I've been looking through the Rolen deal thread, my god the overreactions :lol:

http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=77710

Vottomatic
06-25-2012, 04:55 PM
Here are some others for your consideration:

Yonder Alonso? (the thought that people were considering moving Joey Votto to make room for him? HA!)

I always find that comment misleading.

Votto is my favorite player. But the conversation about trading Votto had to do with the Reds not being able to afford him, and therefore trading him to get something of value before he walked in free agency, like Pujols did.

I think we were all surprised and ecstatic, if not shocked, when Reds management signed Joey long term. Frankly, I didn't think they would ever spend that kind of money on one player, much less two when they signed BP immediately after.

edabbs44
06-25-2012, 05:01 PM
I think he meant moving him to LF.

Bumstead
06-25-2012, 05:06 PM
Yeah, it would have sucked to have a LF and a 1B that could hit...

Brutus
06-25-2012, 05:09 PM
Good pick-up for the Red Sox. Getting a future Cy Young winner for an aging 3B who was embattled with his organization, is a nice haul. The irony...

(Sorry Doug, could't resist)

edabbs44
06-25-2012, 05:15 PM
I've been looking through the Rolen deal thread, my god the overreactions :lol:

http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=77710

I that thread didn't teach some to not overreact and think they know more than the guys running the show...

edabbs44
06-25-2012, 05:16 PM
Yeah, it would have sucked to have a LF and a 1B that could hit...

If that happened, we might be talking about if we should trade Votto now or at next year's deadline.

reds44
06-25-2012, 05:33 PM
I that thread didn't teach some to not overreact and think they know more than the guys running the show...
Blue Jays still won that trade.

Tom Servo
06-25-2012, 05:34 PM
Blue Jays still won that trade.
How do you figure? I'd take the 2010 playoff appearance over still having Edwin Encarnacion.

reds44
06-25-2012, 05:35 PM
How do you figure? I'd take the 2010 playoff appearance over still having Edwin Encarnacion.
Reds win the NL Central by probably 10 games this year with Edwin hitting cleanup.

EDIT: Okay 10 games may be a bit of an exaggeration, but he fills the biggest hole on the roster right now.

bucksfan2
06-25-2012, 05:38 PM
Reds win the NL Central by probably 10 games this year with Edwin hitting cleanup.

Unfortunately for Edwin he doesn't have a position in the NL.

Tom Servo
06-25-2012, 05:40 PM
Also not sure how/why you would assume the Reds would still have Edwin 3 years after that deal went down. They probably would have non-tendered him just like the Jays ended up doing in 2010.

reds44
06-25-2012, 05:41 PM
So if you could trade Rolen for Edwin right now and play Edwin in LF, you wouldn't do it?

757690
06-25-2012, 05:50 PM
So if you could trade Rolen for Edwin right now and play Edwin in LF, you wouldn't do it?

That wouldn't be necessary. Reds had two chances to pick up EE for free after the trade.


November 12, 2010: Selected off waivers by the Oakland Athletics from the Toronto Blue Jays.
December 2, 2010: Granted Free Agency.
December 16, 2010: Signed as a Free Agent with the Toronto Blue Jays.

I think if the player you traded gets put on waivers the very next year... you won that trade.

reds44
06-25-2012, 05:55 PM
I forgot about that, I stand corrected.

Should have claimed him off waivers when we had the chance lol

Bumstead
06-25-2012, 06:00 PM
For what the Reds have paid Rolen, he really hasn't played very well or very often. He could have been waived and/or released more than half the time and still be a Red...He hit halfway decent at the end of the season the first year, beyond that, he has been horrible as predicted by many.

The Reds needed and still need a cleanup hitter and Rolen has never been it. Not sure if Toronto actually won the trade initially but they are certainly winning it now. I'm not sure how one can even argue it. What did they get when they traded "the future Cy Young winner?"

Bum

Benihana
06-25-2012, 06:07 PM
For what the Reds have paid Rolen, he really hasn't played very well or very often. He could have been waived and/or released more than half the time and still be a Red...He hit halfway decent at the end of the season the first year, beyond that, he has been horrible as predicted by many.

The Reds needed and still need a cleanup hitter and Rolen has never been it. Not sure if Toronto actually won the trade initially but they are certainly winning it now. I'm not sure how one can even argue it. What did they get when they traded "the future Cy Young winner?"

Bum

They traded him in a 3-team deal for Colby Rasmus, who is finally starting to hit.

To be fair, they released then subsequently reacquired Encarnacion, so they can't get a ton of credit for this year's performance from that trade.

Still though, I'd argue the Rolen trade worked out just fine for both sides. Reds likely don't win the division in 2010 without him.

Johnny Footstool
06-25-2012, 06:11 PM
Encarnacion finally decided to start using whatever Bautista is using.

_Sir_Charles_
06-25-2012, 07:03 PM
Encarnacion finally decided to start using whatever Bautista is using.

His eyes and a bat?

blumj
06-25-2012, 07:10 PM
It looks like it should be between Encarnacion and Dunn for the backup DH spot on the AL All Star team. Unless the players can't help themselves from voting in Michael Young even though he's having a poor season so far.

Revering4Blue
06-25-2012, 08:59 PM
I've been looking through the Rolen deal thread, my god the overreactions :lol:

http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=77710

Respectfully, if we are going to delve through that thread, why not peruse some of the reasonable arguments in another thread against including a then-top prospect in the Rolen deal. Most have nothing to do with Stewart potentially winning a "Cy Young Award."

http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=81493&page=29

camisadelgolf
06-26-2012, 04:51 AM
So should we keep the subject title, or does the OP still feel this way? I think Todd Frazier has a better chance of being the Reds' next third baseman than Kevin Youkilis.

camisadelgolf
06-26-2012, 04:59 AM
That's quite the claim. Many a prospect have been overrated by "the board".

But I agree. Though a few more former prospects are staking a claim in 2012.
That's true, but I'm referring more to the hand-wringing over the deal than how bad of a career Zach Stewart has had thus far. I think Stewart will be a solid middle reliever someday, but there were people around here calling him a future ace. I don't think any reputable scout would look at his stuff and say he's a viable option for the front of a Major League rotation.

Bumstead
06-26-2012, 10:27 AM
They traded him in a 3-team deal for Colby Rasmus, who is finally starting to hit.

To be fair, they released then subsequently reacquired Encarnacion, so they can't get a ton of credit for this year's performance from that trade.

Still though, I'd argue the Rolen trade worked out just fine for both sides. Reds likely don't win the division in 2010 without him.

So, Toronto dished off Stewart for a starting CF and the Reds got a constantly injured 3B, who was injured part of the time down the stretch when we won the division? Toronto wins in a landslide. Meanwhile the Reds are almost $25M deep in a guy that has done little to nothing as a Red. Rolen used to be a good player, but that wasn't while he was with the Reds nor will it be.

Bum

blumj
06-26-2012, 11:03 AM
There was a lot more to that deal, the Jays also traded the whole good half of their bullpen and I'm pretty sure they're the one's still paying off Mark Teahen's dumb contract extension.

REDREAD
06-26-2012, 11:15 AM
So, Toronto dished off Stewart for a starting CF and the Reds got a constantly injured 3B, who was injured part of the time down the stretch when we won the division? Toronto wins in a landslide. Meanwhile the Reds are almost $25M deep in a guy that has done little to nothing as a Red. Rolen used to be a good player, but that wasn't while he was with the Reds nor will it be.

Bum

Rolen deserves a lot of credit from turning this franchise from a loser into a winner. Toronto gave up a lot more than Stewart for Rasmus.
Zach Stewart has 97 innings of a 5.92 ERA. Maybe he'll be better someday, but he's the person that has done nothing since the trade.

Now, it's a fair point that EdE has become a good player, but there's no position for him on the Reds, and Cincy sure gave him plenty of chances to step up and claim a job. Once Rolen was acquired, EdE became an expensive backup that wasn't very good. Made a lot of sense to ship EdE out.

Benihana
06-26-2012, 11:31 AM
So should we keep the subject title, or does the OP still feel this way? I think Todd Frazier has a better chance of being the Reds' next third baseman than Kevin Youkilis.

I addressed this in an earlier post:


I still think there may be a decent chance of Youkilis being the Reds' next 3B...if he is a cheaper alternative to signing a mashing LF this offseason.

He could be the seasoned veteran with playoff experience that replaces Rolen and Cairo on the roster.

Of course, we'll see how Frazier and Henry Rodriguez perform the rest of this season, and we'll see how much of a hometown discount (in both money and potentially playing time) Youk is willing to take.

Of course the implication in that scenario is that Frazier could move to LF. I'd say it's probably less than 50/50 at this point, but I certainly wouldn't scoff at the idea.

Bumstead
06-26-2012, 12:01 PM
Rolen deserves a lot of credit from turning this franchise from a loser into a winner. Toronto gave up a lot more than Stewart for Rasmus.
Zach Stewart has 97 innings of a 5.92 ERA. Maybe he'll be better someday, but he's the person that has done nothing since the trade.

Now, it's a fair point that EdE has become a good player, but there's no position for him on the Reds, and Cincy sure gave him plenty of chances to step up and claim a job. Once Rolen was acquired, EdE became an expensive backup that wasn't very good. Made a lot of sense to ship EdE out.

First EdE was part of the Rolen trade, so he was never a backup to Rolen. 2nd, provide the information that shows that Rolen had much of anything to do with turning the Reds into a "winner" franchise. One, they won one division title and are leading this year following a very disappointing season and two, he hasn't hardly played. The Reds have more talent than before, regardless of Rolen, which is why they started winning. They have won in spite of the continuing to have a hole at 3B. 97 innings at 5.92ERA is about as effective as or better than what we have gotten out of Rolen $ for $. Any part of Stewart for a starting CF is better than $25M for Rolen. That ignores any contribution from EdE, since we are supposed to ignore that since he was put on waivers to avoid him going to arbitration (and nobody claimed him for the same reason)...

Bum

Always Red
06-26-2012, 12:09 PM
Rolen brought a culture and attitude here that both Jocketty and Castellini recognized was needed. The effect of that cannot be measured, and I realize that many here will scoff at any mention of the importance of clubhouse. But that's where Rolen's influence has mostly been- that and great defense at 3B.

Now, whether that's worth the $25 million mentioned above or not, I have no idea. I think Jocketty and Castellini can decide if their money was well spent or not. I think Scott Rolen has been a profound positive influence on Joey Votto's approach to the game and business, but that's just my opinion.

EdE could always hit; everyone knew that. By the time he left here, his poor defense was in his head so much that he was taking it to the plate with him. I'm glad he's in a place where he can finally just concentrate on hitting.

Vottomatic
06-26-2012, 12:33 PM
I see the Reds letting Frazier (cheap) take over 3B next season, and enjoying the savings of not paying Rolen's $7M considering the pay hikes for Votto, BP and others.

Where I do see them spending money, if they choose to do so, is on LF/cleanup hitter.

Benihana
06-26-2012, 12:53 PM
I see the Reds letting Frazier (cheap) take over 3B next season, and enjoying the savings of not paying Rolen's $7M considering the pay hikes for Votto, BP and others.

Where I do see them spending money, if they choose to do so, is on LF/cleanup hitter.

To me, that should be the preferred course of action. The only question is whether there is someone out there in our price range that would be worth it. Who are the impending FA that would fit the bill other than Carlos Quentin (who I wouldn't pay big bucks to) or Nick Swisher?

Swisher seems like the most logical fit, and he has Ohio roots. Would he be willing to take a 2-year $15MM deal? It seems doubtful to me.

So to me, barring any trades that may happen, it seems that if the Reds are going to make a move in FA this offseason it comes down to Youkilis or Swisher. Both players are seasoned veterans with significant playoff experience and local roots. Swisher probably has more defensive value and less health/declining production questions. However he may also cost significantly more.

Finally don't completely dismiss the possibility of Henry Rodriguez competing for the 3B job with Frazier in ST.