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RANDY IN INDY
04-22-2012, 04:52 PM
Not caring much for Wee Willie. Kind of a waste of a roster spot so far.
Not the LH bat off the bench the Reds need.

dougdirt
04-22-2012, 04:54 PM
From 2007-2011 Willie Harris has a higher OBP than any starter on the Reds outside of Joey Votto. Not the best start of the season, but it is April.

RANDY IN INDY
04-22-2012, 05:02 PM
I didn't particularly like it when they picked him up. I think there should to be better options. Maybe he'll come around.

dougdirt
04-22-2012, 05:04 PM
I didn't particularly like it when they picked him up. I think there should to be better options. Maybe he'll come around.

I think for the 24th or 25th guy on the roster, he isn't a bad guy to have around with his history. As I noted, good at finding first base. Then there is the fact that he can play just about anywhere. Solid bench guy.

RANDY IN INDY
04-22-2012, 05:07 PM
I guess he's going to have to prove his worth to me with the Reds lack of quality LH hitters. He may be a solid bench guy for some teams. Not so sure with this one.

RedsManRick
04-22-2012, 06:54 PM
I'm not a huge fan, but let's also realize he shouldn't be starting at all. If Frazier is on the roster, I'd rather see him get the start at 2B (unless his defense is really atrocious).

He's obviously the last position player on the roster and as replacement-level utility guys go, he's pretty much what you get. For people who want him gone, who specifically do you replace him with?

dougdirt
04-22-2012, 06:55 PM
I'm not a huge fan, but let's also realize he shouldn't be starting at all. If Frazier is on the roster, I'd rather see him get the start at 2B (unless his defense is really atrocious).

He's obviously the last position player on the roster and as replacement-level utility guys go, he's pretty much what you get. For people who want him gone, who specifically do you replace him with?

Frazier at 2B is not pretty at all. He is slow in his movements and actions. It is incredibly clear that he simply has to think through every movement on that side of second base. Not a guy you want playing there at all.

Kc61
04-22-2012, 07:00 PM
Based on Harris' poor start, it's justified to criticize him. He's the only lefty on the bench, would rather have a better hitter.

But let's not pick on the utility man.

It's been a long road trip, the weather in Chicago was bad, it's early, but the team generally hasn't hit much. And I'm talking the starters. Guys like Ludwick and Rolen have pretty sad numbers right now.

Willie is an easy target, but I'm hopeful that the trip home and perhaps an easier schedule at some point will give rise to more offense.

So we can vent at Willie, but he's not the main issue.

jojo
04-22-2012, 07:04 PM
I think for the 24th or 25th guy on the roster, he isn't a bad guy to have around with his history. As I noted, good at finding first base. Then there is the fact that he can play just about anywhere. Solid bench guy.

Exactly and any game in 50 degree temps where Phillips and his hammy sit on the bench is money. Kudos to Harris.

RedsManRick
04-22-2012, 07:17 PM
Frazier at 2B is not pretty at all. He is slow in his movements and actions. It is incredibly clear that he simply has to think through every movement on that side of second base. Not a guy you want playing there at all.

Fair enough. If it's between Harris and Valdez starting at 2B when Phillips is out and Valdez, give me Harris.

dougdirt
04-22-2012, 07:20 PM
Fair enough. If it's between Harris and Valdez starting at 2B when Phillips is out and Valdez, give me Harris.

Yeah, Valdez is the guy that I really am not sure why he is on the roster. He doesn't do anything on offense and I can't figure out what he can give you defensively that Harris or Frazier can't.

Kc61
04-22-2012, 07:35 PM
Yeah, Valdez is the guy that I really am not sure why he is on the roster. He doesn't do anything on offense and I can't figure out what he can give you defensively that Harris or Frazier can't.

Valdez can play shortstop. He's similar to Janish, the Reds just obviously hoped Valdez would hit a bit more. Maybe he will.

The Reds don't view Frazier or Harris as a shortstop.

The only way Valdez is leaving is if Janish is returning. They want a backup shortstop on the club.

Edd Roush
04-22-2012, 07:42 PM
Yeah, Valdez is the guy that I really am not sure why he is on the roster. He doesn't do anything on offense and I can't figure out what he can give you defensively that Harris or Frazier can't.

Doug, I agree with you and others who value Harris as a man on the bench. That being said, do you really think Harris and Frazier can play as good of defense at short as Valdez? If Dusty is going to give Cozart off days, then I see the value of Valdez. If I were Dusty, I don't think I would even keep a back-up a SS. I would just have Frazier or Harris play bad defense at short one game every other week and if the game got close late, I would bring in Cozart for defense. If Cozart needs to go on the DL, then you call up Janish or Valdez if he were to make it through waivers.

WVRedsFan
04-22-2012, 07:44 PM
My only problem with Harris that he's never hit in the major leagues. Never. His career average is .238 and most of his plus .320 career OBP is walks, which are fine, but I have a personal problem with players who depend on the walk to get on base. He's walked one time this year in 20+ at bats. I just hate to clog the roster with total busts at the plate. Valdez and Harris are not both needed. Should have just brought Janish up.

hebroncougar
04-22-2012, 07:46 PM
My only problem with Harris that he's never hit in the major leagues. Never. His career average is .238 and most of his plus .320 career OBP is walks, which are fine, but I have a personal problem with players who depend on the walk to get on base. He's walked one time this year in 20+ at bats. I just hate to clog the roster with total busts at the plate. Valdez and Harris are not both needed. Should have just brought Janish up.

Why Janish? He does the same thing. Except he'd satisfy your personal problem with walks. He doesn't get those either.

Kc61
04-22-2012, 07:47 PM
Doug, I agree with you and others who value Harris as a man on the bench. That being said, do you really think Harris and Frazier can play as good of defense at short as Valdez? If Dusty is going to give Cozart off days, then I see the value of Valdez. If I were Dusty, I don't think I would even keep a back-up a SS. I would just have Frazier or Harris play bad defense at short one game every other week and if the game got close late, I would bring in Cozart for defense. If Cozart needs to go on the DL, then you call up Janish or Valdez if he were to make it through waivers.

I'm not Doug, but this is not happening.

The Reds will not go without a backup shortstop. They have always had one as long as I can remember.

They knew Valdez wasn't a hitter when they acquired him. They just thought he'd be a bit better than Janish.

I'd be very surprised if Valdez was sent down or released or traded. He's here for the season. And if he leaves, Janish is returning.

dougdirt
04-22-2012, 07:47 PM
Doug, I agree with you and others who value Harris as a man on the bench. That being said, do you really think Harris and Frazier can play as good of defense at short as Valdez? If Dusty is going to give Cozart off days, then I see the value of Valdez. If I were Dusty, I don't think I would even keep a back-up a SS. I would just have Frazier or Harris play bad defense at short one game every other week and if the game got close late, I would bring in Cozart for defense. If Cozart needs to go on the DL, then you call up Janish or Valdez if he were to make it through waivers.

Play Frazier or Harris at short when Arroyo is pitching with his fly balls and there you go. Heck, if Valdez were all that good with the glove wouldn't be be playing 2B while Phillips is out and not Harris?

Kc61
04-22-2012, 07:49 PM
Play Frazier or Harris at short when Arroyo is pitching with his fly balls and there you go. Heck, if Valdez were all that good with the glove wouldn't be be playing 2B while Phillips is out and not Harris?

Reds are using Harris to play second against righties. They prefer the lefty bat if they have a choice. If I recall, early in the injury, when they faced a lefty, Valdez played second.

Valdez is here to stay folks.

dougdirt
04-22-2012, 07:50 PM
Reds are using Harris to play second against righties. They prefer the lefty bat if they have a choice. If I recall, early in the injury, when they faced a lefty, Valdez played second.

Valdez is here to stay folks.

Not sure if that is true if Paul Janish keeps hitting .350 for Louisville.

Edd Roush
04-22-2012, 07:51 PM
Reds are using Harris to play second against righties. They prefer the lefty bat if they have a choice. If I recall, early in the injury, when they faced a lefty, Valdez played second.

Valdez is here to stay folks.

I know Valdez is here to stay, and I'm not even arguing that he has value on a Dusty-led team.

I just think that the truly wise manager would do what doug and others have said earlier and start Harris/Frazier at short when Arroyo is on the bump and there aren't many ground balls and let Cozart start 90% of the games.

Valdez only has value when you force a square peg into a round hole and need go have back-up shortstop.

WVRedsFan
04-22-2012, 07:52 PM
Why Janish? He does the same thing. Except he'd satisfy your personal problem with walks. He doesn't get those either.
Cheap

By $100,000.

Kc61
04-22-2012, 07:58 PM
Not sure if that is true if Paul Janish keeps hitting .350 for Louisville.

Well Janish is down to .328 so his chances may be dimming.

No knock on any of these guys, they all have their merit, but I kind of liked Janish. I know he didn't hit and last year it got pretty ridiculous at one point.

But Paul always seemed to play hard, really seemed like a great teammate. I have no basis for this, just watching him on TV mostly. And I really do think he is a very good defender, although some folks think he's overrated there.

As for Harris, he's probably got Reds "we're not hitting right now" disease. He's got a particularly bad case I must admit.

RANDY IN INDY
04-22-2012, 11:01 PM
If you're only going to have one lefthanded bat on the bench, it doesn't need to be Willie Harris.

dougdirt
04-22-2012, 11:23 PM
If you're only going to have one lefthanded bat on the bench, it doesn't need to be Willie Harris.

If you are going to worry about your bench, worry about guys who don't make outs and can play some defense. Harris does those things well over his history.

membengal
04-23-2012, 09:17 AM
I also am not a fan.

RANDY IN INDY
04-23-2012, 10:59 AM
If you are going to worry about your bench, worry about guys who don't make outs and can play some defense. Harris does those things well over his history.

I think Harris is quite versatile, but saying that he is good defensively is a stretch for me. While stats will show that he will draw a walk, I'm not sure why anyone would walk him, as he has never been very stellar with the stick. He's a hustler and a good "team player," but I'm just not sold that he is the left-handed bat you need for the bench when you are only carrying one left-handed bat for the bench. He might be a good fit for a team that has a little more punch off the bench. This team could use a legitimate left-handed bat. I don't see Willie Harris as that. Sorry. Just my opinion.

Reds1
04-23-2012, 12:46 PM
I think for the 24th or 25th guy on the roster, he isn't a bad guy to have around with his history. As I noted, good at finding first base. Then there is the fact that he can play just about anywhere. Solid bench guy.

Defense in a small sample size has not been impressive either. I need to go look his stats up. I can't believe has higher OBP then all other reds not named Votto.

dougdirt
04-23-2012, 01:18 PM
Defense in a small sample size has not been impressive either. I need to go look his stats up. I can't believe has higher OBP then all other reds not named Votto.

I said from 2007-2011 he has a higher OBP than all the Reds starters. He is at .343 over that time. Hanigan might be higher, but he isn't exactly a starter. Rolen was at .341 in that time frame.

And for the record, I never said he was all that good defensively, just that he could play all over the place.

jojo
04-23-2012, 01:46 PM
I said from 2007-2011 he has a higher OBP than all the Reds starters. He is at .343 over that time. Hanigan might be higher, but he isn't exactly a starter. Rolen was at .341 in that time frame.

And for the record, I never said he was all that good defensively, just that he could play all over the place.

UZR suggests that Harris is a roughly neutral defensive second baseman.

So Phillips has hamstring issues and the Reds are using a neutral defender with above aaverage on base skills over the last half decade to fill the void against righties.

Instead of a title poking fun at a reds player, shouldn't this thread be a title praising Dusty's baseball smarts? He's morphing into Earl Weaver before our eyes....

RANDY IN INDY
04-23-2012, 03:08 PM
And there it is, on the attack again, and as usual, this is where the problems begin. Wee Willie is in reference to former big leaguer Wee Willie Keeler, who coined the phrase, "hit 'em where they ain't," and the comparable small stature of Willie Harris, 5'9". I was not poking fun at Harris, rather, stating that I didn't think he was a good fit for the team. And on cue, as usual, you try to make it into something that will cause problems.

Plus Plus
04-23-2012, 03:13 PM
Please keep the personal stuff in PMs and not in threads.

jojo
04-23-2012, 03:14 PM
My post was pro-Dusty, pro-Willie Harris.

jojo
04-23-2012, 03:30 PM
Willie Harris and the way he is being used may very well be saving Phillips' contract (hammy) and an argument could be made that he's giving the Reds the best chance at winning absent Phillips in the lineup. Harris has defensive value and some redeeming offensive ability. If one wants to pick on the margins of the 25 man roster to open a spot for a left-handed bat, Valdez is really the obvious target.

camisadelgolf
04-26-2012, 04:26 PM
If you're really that concerned about having a left-handed bat off the bench, why not sign Aaron Miles or Ross Gload? After all, they're your only options.

Listen, I don't like having Willie Harris and his .238 career batting average on the roster either, but can any of you come up with an alternative who wouldn't cost the team cash and/or prospects? At this point in his career, he's a mediocre option even for the bench imho, but it's not exactly easy to find actual good players who are sitting on the bench and content staying there.

RANDY IN INDY
04-26-2012, 04:35 PM
If I were Jocketty, I'd be scouring for someone else, and I bet he is.

mth123
04-26-2012, 10:06 PM
If you're really that concerned about having a left-handed bat off the bench, why not sign Aaron Miles or Ross Gload? After all, they're your only options.

Listen, I don't like having Willie Harris and his .238 career batting average on the roster either, but can any of you come up with an alternative who wouldn't cost the team cash and/or prospects? At this point in his career, he's a mediocre option even for the bench imho, but it's not exactly easy to find actual good players who are sitting on the bench and content staying there.

What's wrong with giving up a prospect to improve the team?

dougdirt
04-26-2012, 10:09 PM
What's wrong with giving up a prospect to improve the team?

Giving up legit prospects to improve the bench seems like a poor idea. But, I guess it depends on what kind of prospect we are talking about.

mth123
04-26-2012, 10:21 PM
Giving up legit prospects to improve the bench seems like a poor idea. But, I guess it depends on what kind of prospect we are talking about.

If we're talking about a bit player in the Harris mold, I'd agree, but this team needs a 300 PA guy who can play 3B or OF (or both ideally) while hitting from the left side.

dougdirt
04-26-2012, 10:24 PM
If we're talking about a bit player in the Harris mold, I'd agree, but this team needs a 300 PA guy who can play 3B or OF (or both ideally) while hitting from the left side.

Don't trade legit prospects for platoon players.

mth123
04-26-2012, 10:38 PM
Don't trade legit prospects for platoon players.

Who do you define as legit? I'd balk at Corcino, Hamilton, Didi or Lutz. Wouldn't be afraid to deal others.

Neftali Soto or Denis Phipps might be the guys I'd be shopping. I'd throw in an arm like Brackman, Lotzkar or Villareal if need be.

BTW, if you want to improve the offense against RHP, platoon players may be the best way. RH Hitters who can hit RHP are generally among the top players in the game. If you want a guy who is obtainable, affordable and can make a meaningful improvement, a LH hitting platoon player is the best way to go.

dougdirt
04-26-2012, 10:53 PM
I would hesitate to put Lotzkar in a deal. The rest of the guys, go for it. While I have Soto ranked higher, he has nowhere in this organization to play. He can't play anywhere but first.

mth123
04-26-2012, 11:04 PM
I would hesitate to put Lotzkar in a deal. The rest of the guys, go for it. While I have Soto ranked higher, he has nowhere in this organization to play. He can't play anywhere but first.

If I could help the major league team by dealing Lotzkar, I'd do it before his arm falls off and be happy I got something out of him. If he goes on to be successful, I wouldn't care. Deal the risk and improve the team.

dougdirt
04-26-2012, 11:09 PM
If I could help the major league team by dealing Lotzkar, I'd do it before his arm falls off and be happy I got something out of him. If he goes on to be successful, I wouldn't care. Deal the risk and improve the team.

I am not as sure as you are that his arm is going to fall off.

mth123
04-26-2012, 11:22 PM
I am not as sure as you are that his arm is going to fall off.

He may not, but he's still far away from the big leagues and already burning options. He has more risk from 1. injury, 2. levels to move up and 3. the clock already ticking. He'll probably need just about every one of those option years just to build innings to the point of being a usable starter at the big league level and there is still the question of whether he'll be any good by the time he gets there. Throw in the real possibility that he may end up in the bullpen to keep him healthy, and I'll take a 300 PA LH bat who can put up an .800 OPS against RHP now, when its sorely needed, and live with it if he hits the lotto and becomes a productive starting pitcher.