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malcontent
04-23-2012, 12:28 PM
Small sample size, absolutely.

But Francisco is currently OPSing 1.025, while Rolen is scuffling along at 0.454.

Given that Francisco's career MLB OPS is 0.857, his fast start doesn't seem to be too much of an aberration.

While after last season's OPS of 0.676, Rolen's slow start looks ominous indeed.

Did having Rolen around for another lost season cause Walt to royally screw up in this case by trading Juan because of an extra 10-15 pounds?

Francisco and Frazier would have made a very nice little 3B platoon.

I'd have been more than fine with the drop-off in defense for the significantly better offensive production.

But, I do understand. Rolen practically invented the game so it would have been sacrilegious to sit/release him.

BEETTLEBUG
04-23-2012, 12:39 PM
True it would have made good platoon but who's to say Juan would be doing that here.

bmwreds31
04-23-2012, 12:45 PM
Dont miss francisco at all.

Rather see ROlen come around and Frazier get better. Francisco is not going to be anything. YOu can keep watching him all you want.

bigredmechanism
04-23-2012, 01:01 PM
Dont miss francisco at all.

Rather see ROlen come around and Frazier get better. Francisco is not going to be anything. YOu can keep watching him all you want.

He might end up like a left handed Wily Mo Pena, but he could also go the other way. I doubt he won't amount to anything.

The guy can hit. We'll just have to see if he can hit once pitchers have a better understanding of his tendencies.

bmwreds31
04-23-2012, 01:14 PM
^^^ Ill politely disagree. He wont amount to even an avg. MLB player. Say no better than Hanigans career statistics. Honestly doubt hes even in the league for two more years.

Stray
04-23-2012, 01:22 PM
I'm almost positive us dumping Francisco had nothing to do with his ability as a player.

bmwreds31
04-23-2012, 01:24 PM
I'm almost positive us dumping Francisco had nothing to do with his ability as a player.

ummm what else would it be about. He was surely not due for a big Pay increase. And we got next to nothing in return sooooo.....

brm7675
04-23-2012, 01:51 PM
ummm what else would it be about. He was surely not due for a big Pay increase. And we got next to nothing in return sooooo.....

Attitude and options...he had a poor one and was out of the other..

Krawhitham
04-23-2012, 02:10 PM
.170AVG 4R 0HR 3RBI

VS

.286 AVG 5R 3HR 7RBI (in half the at bats)


old school

Edwin Encarnacion
.323 AVG 9R 4HR 13 RBI

bmwreds31
04-23-2012, 02:47 PM
.170AVG 4R 0HR 3RBI

VS

.286 AVG 5R 3HR 7RBI (in half the at bats)


old school

Edwin Encarnacion
.323 AVG 9R 4HR 13 RBI

who is that?

malcontent
04-23-2012, 02:50 PM
.170AVG 4R 0HR 3RBI
VS
.286 AVG 5R 3HR 7RBI (in half the at bats)
old school
Edwin Encarnacion
.323 AVG 9R 4HR 13 RBI
Hoover could turn out to be a decent reliever, but that doesn't begin to take the sting out of the disparity of these numbers, which could be downright abysmal by season's end.

And I'm not suggesting Juan F. is going to OPS over 1.000 this year.

But all he has to do is stay at his career OPS to crush Rolen's production.

Bob Sheed
04-23-2012, 04:46 PM
Rolen is easily one of my favorite Reds.

That being said, he seems to have "jumped the shark" as a player. And what will he look like when he starts to get worn down?

Larkin88
04-23-2012, 05:07 PM
^^^ Ill politely disagree. He wont amount to even an avg. MLB player. Say no better than Hanigans career statistics. Honestly doubt hes even in the league for two more years.

Just curious because you tried to take me to task in the Willie Harris conversation. But what are you basing this on?

Hanigan and Francisco could not have a more different approach to the plate. That is literally such a stretch to even suggest you should compare their statistics, that I'm candidly interested in why that example popped into your head.

Francisco is a free-swinging power hitter with high strikeout numbers while Hanigan is almost the mirror opposite of that. His numbers will be different than Hanigan's, period. They would never comparably overlap in any significant peripheral hitting metric.

texasdave
04-23-2012, 05:07 PM
Somewhere nux fan is having a good old laugh. Francisco for Hoover could turn out to be a very bad trade for the Reds in the long run.

Larkin88
04-23-2012, 05:09 PM
who is that?


.286 AVG 5R 3HR 7RBI is Juan Francisco's line on the year. The one who "wont amount to even an avg. MLB player" as you remarked.

Good thing he'll be out of the league in less than two years, though. We won't have to worry about that.

bmwreds31
04-23-2012, 05:27 PM
Just curious because you tried to take me to task in the Willie Harris conversation. But what are you basing this on?

Hanigan and Francisco could not have a more different approach to the plate. That is literally such a stretch to even suggest you should compare their statistics, that I'm candidly interested in why that example popped into your head.

Francisco is a free-swinging power hitter with high strikeout numbers while Hanigan is almost the mirror opposite of that. His numbers will be different than Hanigan's, period. They would never comparably overlap in any significant peripheral hitting metric.

Yeah sure two completely different approaches. But hitting is hitting. Certain stats will always over lap. Im not sure what the heck your talking about. You can always compare hitters. One stat outweighs ones other stats. etc etc.


Hanigan has been in the league for 5 yrs.

.273 avg 16 HR's OPS .732 and very low striekout rate

Hanigan has these numbers giving his situation of not playing everyday. And also in 840 AB's. Which equals about the same amount of two full seasons.

If Juan is in the league for 5 yrs well i would be wrong in that case Anyhow.

And i would venture to say Francisco is out to prove something now that we booted his ass. So he's come out of the gates hot for two MAIN reasons. 1.) Something to prove..And 2) New division pitchers might not have figured out to throw him nothing but curve balls yet.

We Shall see But you know my Opinion. I say he wont amount to anything. And given Hanigans status in the league is about as AVG as it gets. Maybe slightly above avg at best. I love me some hanigan personally, but those are the facts. Is why i used him as a good comparison to make a point.

Larkin88
04-23-2012, 06:17 PM
Yeah sure two completely different approaches. But hitting is hitting. Certain stats will always over lap. Im not sure what the heck your talking about. You can always compare hitters. One stat outweighs ones other stats. etc etc.

We Shall see But you know my Opinion. I say he wont amount to anything. And given Hanigans status in the league is about as AVG as it gets. Maybe slightly above avg at best. I love me some hanigan personally, but those are the facts. Is why i used him as a good comparison to make a point.

Minor misunderstanding on my end. I guess my point was more that while you can look at stat columns for anyone to see how they've performed, your expectations for their contribution do definitely have to be based on their approach to the plate.

Juan Francisco will never have a low strikeout rate and will always be a power hitter because he jumps at pitches in his at-bats. Hanigan will always work the batter, have a good OBP, but poor power numbers because of his more reserved nature at the plate.

But comparing Juan Francisco to Hanigan doesn't tell me anything about how Francisco compares to other comparable hitters with similar power tendencies. And since lefty/switch power hitter is ultimately the role he is being asked to fill, it would seem that comparing Juan's metrics to others at that position or with his proclivities would be a better read on his shelf life in the league.

Because you're right - if Francisco were to average 6 HR, 31 RBI and a sub .400 SLG from year to year as a starter at 3B, I'd agree he'll be out of this league in a heartbeat. But he would still be matching Hanigan's output in that situation and Hanigan obviously still has a job.

Bit of a stretch, but sorta like when all the nay sayers were out questioning Barry's Hall of Fame credentials. .295 |.371 | .444 may be one of the less gaudy career lines in the Hall compared to all positions. But compared to other shortstops, he was in another world and totally deserving.

Kingspoint
04-23-2012, 08:25 PM
The gift of Dusty Baker (his love of the veteran) just keeps on giving.

From Rotoworld w/ Rotoworld comments:

Juan Francisco hit his third home run of the season in Sunday's loss to the Diamondbacks. Francisco's at-bats have been limited thanks to Chipper Jones' return, but he's still displaying the raw power he was known for as a prospect in the Reds' organization. Francisco now has three homers and seven RBI in just 28 at-bats. He'll be a name to watch if/when Jones hits the DL.

Kingspoint
04-23-2012, 08:33 PM
Even the guy we "threw in" for Rolen is putting Rolen to shame. That trade was one dumb trade. I said at the time that the damage Rolen would do to this team when it "legitimately" had a shot at getting to the World Series (2012) would far outweigh any menial difference he would make for them when they had no chance of ever getting to the World Series (2010). Anyone who thought that trade was good at the time was completely wrong, and this season and the last half of last season proves it.

From Rotoworld w/ Rotoworld comments:

Edwin Encarnacion doubled, drew a walk and stole a base in Sunday's win over the Royals. E5's double was his only knock of the afternoon, but already his 10th extra-base hit of the season. Now batting .323/.368/.613 through Toronto's first 15 games, Encarnacion is well on his way toward finishing the job of resurrecting his mixed-league fantasy value he started in 2011.

You've got to love Rotoworld's nickname for Encarnacion, "E-5".

texasdave
04-23-2012, 08:43 PM
Rolen and Ludwick have been hitting in tough luck. They have the second and third highest LD% of anyone on the team at 25% and 22% respectively. Votto leads at 26%. League average here early in 2012 is 18%. However, they don't have much to show for it. Rolen's BABIP is .225. Ludwick is faring even worse at .200. League average is .286. These things tend to even out.

Revering4Blue
04-23-2012, 08:49 PM
I'm with Kingspoint on both counts.

That stated, I'm not discounting Hoover at all, he may well pan-out, but that trade seems incongruous at a time when the Reds are going all out to win now.

As for Rolen, I hope that he proves me wrong. It wouldn't be the first time.

brm7675
04-23-2012, 08:54 PM
Somewhere nux fan is having a good old laugh. Francisco for Hoover could turn out to be a very bad trade for the Reds in the long run.

How? Francisco has shown a lack of professionalism and desire to perform at his best on the top level. His defense is average at best and scary at times. Yes Rolen is old, and yes his bat isn't great, but the chance to add another arm like one of Hoovers for a malcontent and slacker...I do that deal every day and twice on Sunday.:thumbup:

Revering4Blue
04-23-2012, 09:08 PM
How? Francisco has shown a lack of professionalism and desire to perform at his best on the top level. His defense is average at best and scary at times. Yes Rolen is old, and yes his bat isn't great, but the chance to add another arm like one of Hoovers for a malcontent and slacker...I do that deal every day and twice on Sunday.:thumbup:

Bad trade in the long run? Maybe not.

As for right now, honestly, who is going to provide the most production?

1)Francisco.

2)Rolen.

3)Hoover.

Kingspoint
04-23-2012, 11:09 PM
How? Francisco has shown a lack of professionalism and desire to perform at his best on the top level. His defense is average at best and scary at times. Yes Rolen is old, and yes his bat isn't great, but the chance to add another arm like one of Hoovers for a malcontent and slacker...I do that deal every day and twice on Sunday.:thumbup:It was definitely the right trade to make. It's just too bad it couldn't have been Rolen instead of Francisco we traded away.

Mr Larkin
04-23-2012, 11:35 PM
EE has taken two more years to develop and he is still not a solid defensive player. He was in the minors for some of last season.
Francisco was out of options and the Reds were not going to hand over 3rd to him. They did not see him long term. Rolen is not playing his best, but he is still a major league player. His defense is still strong. He will begin to hit as the weather warms up. If not, I'm cool with Frazier playing 3rd on a regular basis.
Hoover has a shot at being a good arm in the pen. I think the Reds are in good shape.

The Rage
04-24-2012, 12:16 AM
Hoover better be better than Carlos Fisher type. He better be at least Logan O to get anything out of the deal.

brm7675
04-24-2012, 12:25 AM
Hoover better be better than Carlos Fisher type. He better be at least Logan O to get anything out of the deal.

I think Hoover had a very strong upside

OGB
04-24-2012, 05:04 AM
Can Todd Frazier get a damn start at third base already?

bmwreds31
04-24-2012, 12:41 PM
Sheesh francisco getting hot for a few at bats really have people HIGH on Juan fran Mo Pena doesnt it.

He's not that good. He will fall off. Dude cant hit major league pitching. He's in a new division and as soon as pitchers realize down there to not throw him a get ahead fast ball He will continue to suck it up just like he did here.

And EE cmon now.

IMO i dont like keeping avg talent around. Because you know what it does. It does exactly what the reds have been doing for the past many many losing years. We sit around waiting for dudes like Francisco and EE to get good. It never happens and in the end we suck. Just like we always do. So good riddance On to something good. Hopefully by the end of year Frazier shows hes got serious talent or maybe we can Snag a dime out of a trade or FA for next year.

read favorite
05-09-2012, 12:49 AM
dint you love rolen what a great leader in the clubhouse

R_Webb18
05-09-2012, 12:53 AM
i mean he's doing better but nothing to brag about.

read favorite
05-09-2012, 12:58 AM
so you think role is the answer, wow rolen did hit a home run in 2010 very important

R_Webb18
05-09-2012, 01:02 AM
so you think role is the answer, wow rolen did hit a home run in 2010 very important

nope i think neither are.