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View Full Version : They Just Aren't a Particularly Fun Team to Watch, Are They?



Edskin
04-28-2012, 04:24 PM
I've had these thoughts floating around in my head for a week or so now but wasn't quite sure how to properly verbalize them. I still probably can't quite spell out what I'm trying to say, but I'll give it a shot.

First of all, I'm not angry or frustrated at all. I really appreciate the effort being shown by Walt and BCast right now. As an organization the Reds are investing in the team, taking occasional risks, and really seem to be making every realistic attempt at building a winner longterm in Cincy. As a fan, that's really all I can ask.

But when I watch this team play, I am jus so uninspired. I find them difficult to watch. I don't think it's an effort or energy issue or anything like that; I just think there are flaws-- and flaws with certain aspects of the team that many probably view as strengths.

Outside of Cueto, the rotation is like nails on a chalkboard to me. It is so painful getting through six innings. Even if Homer or Leake have a good outing, it's usually a painstaking process. And on the rare occasion where they throw a really clean game, they often follow it with a dud.

And the middle of the lineup is just brutal. Horrible. And yes, I throw Bruce in the mix. Not as a horrible player, but as one that just can't quite seem to settle on any sort of consistency. He still has an obscene number of terrible at bats where he barely gives himself a chance.

Votto, Chapman, Cozart, and BP are all guys I trust and enjoy watching. Everyone else gives me some sort of stomach pain. Maybe it's a lack of roles? Not everyone on a team is going to be as consistent or good as Votto, I understand that. But I just don't think there are many players successfully carrying out various roles. I'm not even sure what role guys like Ludwick, Heisy, Rolen, Harris, etc are supposed to be playing.

I just get a very hodge-podge and uneasy feel watching this team. They are 9-11 and I think that is basically who they are... Maybe a hot streak here or there could land them a few games over .500 by season's end, but I just don't see much upside at all.

It's all very "blah" to me for whatever reason, which is odd because I've really pretty much approved of all major moves the team has made. Perhaps this is a situation where a managerial change actually would help? Perhaps a fresh voice or approach would do some good?

I wouldn't care about our record being what it is if I felt we were realistically capable of doing much better. But right now, I have a "they are what they are" feel from this team.

kbrake
04-28-2012, 04:30 PM
I agree with you to a point. I think the bullpen has been great and for the most part I feel good about the starting pitching. Latos will get better and Arroyo has been much much better. I also feel good about the defense. The offense has been troubling though and I see it as a reason for concern going forward. I wouldn't mind seeing Frazier get some AB's in LF.

Kc61
04-28-2012, 04:42 PM
I'm ok with the pitching and defense. I think the loss of Madson hurt badly, but I see signs of a pretty good pitching staff. Better than in past years. The defense has been off lately, but it's a good defense, it will come around.

I just can't abide this offense. It isn't fun to watch because there are so few rallies. They don't string together hits and walks. Some of the guys seem constantly aimed at the short GABP fences, even when they aren't at GABP.

For once, I'd like to see the Reds with some low strikeout, high contact, high OBP, high BA hitters. Guys who are constantly getting on base and producing rallies. I think that would make the team more enjoyable and would put pressure on the opposition.

The Reds have enough pitching IMO to be a .500 plus team this year. The record might not be too bad. But the offense is hard to watch IMO.

powersackers
04-28-2012, 04:44 PM
I predicted 84 wins. Even with that as my baseline expectation I'm losing watching/attending interest daily. That's what .236 team average and tons of non situational hitting success earn this team from me.

Vottomatic
04-28-2012, 04:54 PM
I hear ya.

Too many K's by our hitters. Frustrating to watch. Under Dusty, they've never been a team that manufactures many runs.

Things I'm encouraged about:
Arroyo seems better this year.
Rolen's 2 HR's were no doubters and give me hope he's coming around.
Latos last outing was pretty good considering outside of his fastball, his other pitches weren't working that well.
Cueto, so far, is last year's version of Cueto.
The bullpen overall.

The lack of a true 4-hole hitter will continue to hurt this team forever until they go get one.

mth123
04-28-2012, 04:55 PM
Teams that aren't hitting look like they have no emotion and are boring to watch and even the best teams go into these funks. When the weather warms, I think you'll see the bats heat up. Just about everyone on the roster is 75 to 100 OPS points below where they'll end-up for the season (except probably Bruce and Cozart).The offense has some flaws. They lack a true third middle of the order guy, they are short of LH bats making them easy prey for RH pitching when certain guys are slumping and Rolen, Stubbs and Heisey are all more iffy than I'd like to see given the large roles they play, but they'll start scoring more runs and suddenly they'll look like they are playing harder and will be more interesting to watch play.

Ghosts of 1990
04-29-2012, 01:37 AM
Yea I don't know. I feel this way when they're playing poorly. But when the oil is working on the parts and the team strings a few together; or days like today happen it seems like everything is working.

This is a very good bullpen still with a lot of quality arms.

Bruce has to hit. That's why I am so critical of him. If he's the monster he has the potential to be it changes the shape of the entire lineup.

I like guys like Heisey and Ludwick. But when they're cold they do have a helpless feeling to them. Rolen as well.

Cozart, Votto, Phillips, Bruce, Stubbs can look pretty solid or pretty hot cold. They all seem to slump together or go on tears together. They're all pretty streaky with the exception of Votto.

I totally get what you're saying. But I think this team can win 90 games. I think Bailey has big potential.

Edskin
04-29-2012, 08:58 AM
Yea I don't know. I feel this way when they're playing poorly. But when the oil is working on the parts and the team strings a few together; or days like today happen it seems like everything is working.

This is a very good bullpen still with a lot of quality arms.

Bruce has to hit. That's why I am so critical of him. If he's the monster he has the potential to be it changes the shape of the entire lineup.

I like guys like Heisey and Ludwick. But when they're cold they do have a helpless feeling to them. Rolen as well.

Cozart, Votto, Phillips, Bruce, Stubbs can look pretty solid or pretty hot cold. They all seem to slump together or go on tears together. They're all pretty streaky with the exception of Votto.

I totally get what you're saying. But I think this team can win 90 games. I think Bailey has big potential.

I hope you are correct, I really do. And I'm not throwing in the towel on the season by any means. It's baseball and in baseball, unless you are just abysmal, then one really great month can springboard you into contention. And at the end of April 1999, when the Reda were 9-13, I would have laughed in your face had you'd told me that they'd wind up winning 96 games.

It's possible it all comes together, but it's hard for me to envision it.

PuffyPig
04-29-2012, 09:04 AM
And the middle of the lineup is just brutal. Horrible.

Votto, Chapman, Cozart, and BP are all guys I trust and enjoy watching.

The middle of the lineup is horrible, yet the 3-4 hitters you like?

elfmanvt07
04-29-2012, 09:10 AM
Honestly, I think that a lot of the emotions you just mentioned don't stem from performance but from your level of investment in the team. As someone who is a graduate from a school known for their perennial almost-but-not-quite college football team, things that aren't going swimmingly are seemingly going horribly. There was a lot of excitement around the Reds this season, and I for one got sucked in. That happens.

It's not as bad as it looks. The Reds offense simply IS NOT this bad. Slumps happen. When they begin a year, they can dampen spirits. I'm not particularly fussed. I think, despite the pitching's decent start, that it will only continue to improve. If we're around .500 with our offense in the crapper, I'm frankly excited to see what can happen when it finally wakes up.

Edit: Plus, it could always be worse. My fantasy team is currently 19.5 games out of first.

traderumor
04-29-2012, 09:21 AM
The Reds are playing MLB baseball, and that in and of itself is inherently enjoyable. I honestly don't understand where this is coming from when most of the people on here watched the dark years of 1996-1998 and 2001-2009. I watched that period of Reds baseball very closely and that was some bad baseball. This era is so far above that it is not even funny. There is so much more talent in all areas in this organization that to claim this team isn't fun is really difficult to take seriously, anymore than the "this team is in serious trouble" thread was.

I'm not sure what the standard of "fun to watch," but there are a lot of MLB fans in cities like Pittsburgh, Kansas City, Houston, Chicago, San Diego, Seattle, Oakland, Baltimore that would trade our orgs. in a heartbeat. Now those fans are subjected to some ugly MLB baseball, also known as chronic losing.

The only thing I can figure is unrealistic expectations of how this team should perform in its first 20 games and personal preference as to what "fun" baseball is. For example, I despise slap hitting "small ball" type offense as was described as desirable to that person, yet someone else thinks that would be "fun to watch."

I do have a theory that there are a lot of signs of fans following MLB too closely, getting too involved because of all the access to the game and time spent reading, watching, listening, writing about available that they are now unable to enjoy the game because it has reached the level of addiction.

elfmanvt07
04-29-2012, 09:36 AM
I do have a theory that there are a lot of signs of fans following MLB too closely, getting too involved because of all the access to the game and time spent reading, watching, listening, writing about available that they are now unable to enjoy the game because it has reached the level of addiction.

A thousand times this. Baseball presents you so many more opportunities to get addicted, too. There's a game basically every day. Every AB is NOT life and death. Everyone has off days, and in my opinion, a good day vs a bad day for a football player is a MUCH larger gap physiologically and mentally than for a baseball player. Baseball is so much about luck. One little tiny fraction of an inch with a bat turns a dribbler to second into a rocket through the hole. It's unhealthy to invest yourself in anything to the point where you can no longer enjoy it.

redsmetz
04-29-2012, 09:50 AM
A thousand times this. Baseball presents you so many more opportunities to get addicted, too. There's a game basically every day. Every AB is NOT life and death. Everyone has off days, and in my opinion, a good day vs a bad day for a football player is a MUCH larger gap physiologically and mentally than for a baseball player. Baseball is so much about luck. One little tiny fraction of an inch with a bat turns a dribbler to second into a rocket through the hole. It's unhealthy to invest yourself in anything to the point where you can no longer enjoy it.

This seems like an appropriate place to insert C. Trent Rosecrans column this week from City Beat, which he would have written earlier in the week. He concludes with:

This team isn’t perfect and the 2012 season could still become a disaster, but we have several glorious months of baseball on the Ohio River to figure that out. Trying to figure out what’s going to happen over the course of the season because of the results of the first 16 games is pure folly — there’s a reason there are three strikes in an out, three outs in an inning, nine innings in a game and 162 games in a season. One event can mean everything in baseball and one event can mean nothing — what the first 16 games mean in 2012 need perspective, something that can’t be gleaned in 140 characters or in April.

http://citybeat.com/cincinnati/article-25345-reds%E2%80%99_slow_start_no_reason_for_panic.html

My own comment is that yesterday's game shows how exciting this club can be. It would be great to get a nice string of games like this. Not sure we can, but it would do a lot to ease our jitters for what can be a pretty good team.

westofyou
04-29-2012, 12:04 PM
Baseball is a game of losses, a game of attrition and wear and tear.

Its' NOT a weekend event to be played over and over in your head, it's a day to day grind with more failures statistically than successes.

That's why these items stick in our brain:


He still has an obscene number of terrible at bats where he barely gives himself a chance. But his line is this: .295/.329/.590/.919 OPS + 147

VR
04-29-2012, 01:03 PM
Chicks dig the longball.

I dig a well-pitched, well-defended game any day of the week over the beer league we had so much fun watching circa 2002-2008.

Joseph
04-29-2012, 01:08 PM
Winning fixes everything.

_Sir_Charles_
04-29-2012, 01:12 PM
Stubbs has looked much better of late. I don't see him having a breakout year or anything, but I see him having a much improved year though.

Cozart has cooled off, but I still foresee nearly double the production that we got from SS last season and that alone is a big win IMO.

Votto does not look like himself. I guess it could be the pressure to perform to the new contract. But regardless, it looks like this could be a dropoff kind of year from him. But still VERY good.

Bruce still seems hot and cold. But I still think he's got MVP candidate written all over him for this seasons.

Rolen is slower on defense, slower with the bat, slower on the bases. I'd love to see Todd get more than one start a week.

Phillips, while hampered by the hammy, still looks solid. I expect a season similar to last year, and that ain't too bad.

Mesoraco looks like a solid prospect, but I'll never understand why people continue to overlook Hanigan. He's got great pitch recognition and discipline. Heck, I'd love to see what he can do near the top of the order. As for defense, there's really no comparison at this point. Hanny hands down. (but that's not a knock on Mes)

LF. What is there to say. Yuck.

Bullpen, just imagine if we were full strength. Regardless, it's impressive and should continue to be.

Rotation, much improved. Leake will round into shape as it gets warmer. Latos will regain his form as well.

Overall, while we've struggled early on, I'm not changing a thing. I still think we top 100 wins and have some solid candidates for the big awards. It's a marathon folks. Up to now we've played a tough schedule against top notch pitching. Things will even out.

Kc61
04-29-2012, 02:10 PM
Overall, while we've struggled early on, I'm not changing a thing. I still think we top 100 wins and have some solid candidates for the big awards. It's a marathon folks. Up to now we've played a tough schedule against top notch pitching. Things will even out.

While we disagree about 2012, when I look at the ballclub, it's relative youth, it's key long term signings, the addition of pitching strength this off-season, it's depth of prospects, I see a top level team in the next couple of years. I just don't quite see it in 2012.

It might be a good topic for another thread, but with key additions to the offense in open spots (3B, LF), Chapman in the future rotation, maybe a Madson return, the addition of prospects like Henry Rodriguez and Billy Hamilton, I can see the Reds flirting with 100 wins very soon. So I continue to watch the Reds carefully, perhaps mostly with the future in mind.

Ghosts of 1990
04-29-2012, 06:35 PM
Today was another fun one. When we win and Bruce and Votto hit I'm in a great mood.

Blitz Dorsey
04-29-2012, 07:48 PM
Is this thread for real? This team is a lot of fun to watch. Especially after the "dark years" of 2001-09, I would think good baseball would be appreciated around here.

Tommyjohn25
04-29-2012, 07:54 PM
Is this thread for real? This team is a lot of fun to watch. Especially after the "dark years" of 2001-09, I would think good baseball would be appreciated around here.

Yeah. I'm having plenty of fun watching this team so far.

Raisor
04-29-2012, 08:18 PM
I don't get to watch a ton of games, but when I do I have a good time. Not worried at all about Bruce and Votto. Both have OPSes over 900 after the first month. Streakiness doesn't bother me. We all know that the pythg thm of baseball is darn accurate, and that's just based on gross numbers. Its what they do big picture that mostly matter, not just when they do it.

Roy Tucker
04-29-2012, 11:21 PM
Eh, they are the Reds and they are my team through thick and thin and always will be.

Like I tell my kids, sometimes I may not like you but I always love you. Sometimes I don't like how they play the game, but I always come back. I think there is some truth to over-exposure of the team and players in the hyper-connected world we live in and the ultra-intense analysis that goes on. Even in the BRM days when the Reds were an all-time great team, there was grumbling and FUD about how they played. It's the nature of the beast. Just don't let it suck the joy out of being a fan. That would be my comment to RZ as a whole, actually.

Edskin
04-30-2012, 12:34 AM
A few things in response to many of the replies:

1. I agree wholeheartedly that baseball is easy to over-ingest and over-analyze. It is not a sport like football or basketball that lends itself to wild swings of emotion and gut reaction. Baseball is a game without a clock and one that preaches patience and consistency in approach. If you get overly wrapped up in one game, one series, etc. you can easily lose sight of the beauty of the game and the longview. I also agree that of all the sports, baseball fandom probably most lends itself to addiction simply because of the repition.

2. In the past I was probably guilty of taking each at bat too seriously, but that's not the case for me now. As a matter of fact this is easily the LEAST personally invested I've ever been with the Reds. Life (business owner, two young kids) keeps me rather busy and I spend the majority of my "free" time following the OKC Thunder (season ticket holder--- last night was unreal BTW). So I haven't been nearly as dialed in on the Reds as I have in years past. I catch the action on my phone via audio or game tracker and/or watch the games on DVR late at night while doing office work. I'm not really emotional about it right now or frustrated when they lose. Perhaps my feelings of "blah" stem from this detachment but then that would sort of fly in the face of the addiction theory.

3. I'm not saying I'm actually bored watching the games. I love baseball and love the Reds so I'd always rather watch than not watch. What I am saying is that I watch the team and I don't see much room for improvement on the whole for this season. I think the Reds are what they are. Some guys will will bring their numbers up to more career norm levels, and others will likely fade.

4. I posed the thread in form of a question for a reason. I wanted to see of anyone else felt the same way. Again, my LACK of investment may contribute to my feelings... Perhaps I just haven't paid close enough attention to the team thus far? It's possible I'm missing signs that others are picking up on. For me, something isn't clicking an I'm not quite sure what it is.

5. I hope I made to look the fool (it isn't exactly a rare occasion). I hope that in October as we prepare for game one of the NLCS that someone bumps this thread and sarcastically asks, "having fun yet?" That would make me very happy.

6. Almost totally of subject, but I didn't want to start another thread... One thing I did find fun was Votto's AB on Friday night in the 6th inning when we were down 6-1. It was an absolute thing of beauty. He looked fooled early, then fouled off about 5-6 pitches in a row, clearly looking for something specific. He finally got it and drilled and RBI double into the gap. He is phenomenal. His approach and concentration is remarkable. I see no reason why he won't go down as possibly the greatest Red of all time. He is a joy to watch.

WVRedsFan
04-30-2012, 12:41 AM
I think there is a lot to be said for information overload and being obsessed. Heck, I've been obsessed for close to 50 years now, but it's easy to get too involved. I've cut back on the rage this year just because I don't want to torture myself.

That said, I agree with much of what you say, Ed. So far this season, four runs by the opposition usually beats you, though not lately. We struggle to get hits and if we're not hitting the home run, we rarely score. Latos and Leake have been disappointing among the starters (while Cueto and Arroyo have done well and Homer OK). The bullpen is good, but I fear we'll wear them out before the AS break.

As for the hard to watch factor, it's been mostly the offense. Votto is struggling since no one wants to pitch to him and our manager refuses to put someone behind him to protect him. Stubbs, Rolen, Ludwick, and Phillips will have good years eventually. Patience is a virtue rarely found in a woman and never in a man, my wife tells me.

Dusty's moves baffle me but I can't look away. Haven't been able to since birth. Dad taught me on his knee that the guys on the radio were the Reds and then took me the long 300 mile trip to see them time and time again. It's been painful all those years, but I still come back for more. Today I have RedsZone, MLB At Bat, ESPN Score Center, and DirectV with the Extra Innings Package. I may go broke, and that's a real possibility, but I will follow the Reds regardless. You know, it's a lot like marriage. You take this team and agree to support it through thick and thin. I nearly divorced them in the Dave Miley-Jerry Narron era, but we reconciled. Who do we play on Tuesday?

Ron Madden
04-30-2012, 05:28 AM
I love watching them. It's Baseball.. ya never know what's gonna happen when the next pitch is thrown..

GAC
04-30-2012, 05:49 AM
They have scraptitude. :D

Scrap Irony
04-30-2012, 10:05 AM
I like most of this team. They seem to play hard. I also like the fire Latos seems to bring and hope some of it rubs off on Bailey. Their youth and upside-- especially among the better hitters and pitchers-- should mean some enjoyable seasons.

But yeah, anytime they struggle, it's hard to watch the next game.

At least until it isn't. A frozen rope. A diving stab. An Uncle Charlie that buckles the knees.

Then all is forgotten and the game begins anew.

cumberlandreds
04-30-2012, 10:20 AM
No team is fun to watch when they lose. They weren't much fun to watch about two weeks ago. But the last three series have been fun for the most part taking two of three in each. Winning cures all ills and if this team wins we all will have a lot of fun this summer.

PuffyPig
04-30-2012, 10:49 AM
I think many forget how much randomness plays into most sports, especially baseball.

You shouldn't rush to judgements based on a few plays in baseball, or even a few games or weeks.

REDREAD
04-30-2012, 11:00 AM
I think the team has become a lot more fun to watch lately.
Yesterday was fun (Come from behind against the Astros), despite another frustrating start by Latos.
We finished April at .500, which is great considering the slow start we were off to.

This team is going to put some winning streaks together, particularly since it looks like Arroyo is going to have a good year. Then they will be really fun to watch.

Cozart has exceeded my expectations so far. He's fun. Ludwick still has a bad batting average (around .200) but he's driven in some key runs which were fun to witness (not saying he's good, just saying he's made this year fun at times).
Likewise, Rolen's recent surge has been fun.

I was also hoping this team would start the season at a .667 winning percentage, but we've got plenty of time to catch the Cards. The talent gap is not as wide as it appears.

RedEye
04-30-2012, 11:06 AM
I realize that this post is now a bit out of date -- but it seems a bit reactionary. Slumps get blown out of proportion early in the season. This team will be better than .500 by the end of the season, I'm sure of it. As usual, it will come down to whether they are 10 or 20 games better. Let's hope their two new multimillionaires can make the difference!

WildcatFan
04-30-2012, 11:08 AM
I'm having a blast this year. Walking out of the stadium yesterday, my buddy and I were talking about how impressive it was that, as bad as the team has hit so far, it's at .500 after April. What a gutsy performance. It's almost like the team is fighting Tyson--hoping to keep the scorecard close until the opponent starts to wear down and it can deliver the knockout blow.

I love watching Cozart turn into Baby Larkin right before our eyes.

I love the defense. Brandon Phillips will be a YouTube star for decades.

I love how confident I feel when 80 percent of the bullpen trots out there.

I've never loved watching a hitter's approach as much as I do right now with Joey Votto.

I love that I think, at least for a second, that Bruce is going to homer every time he steps up.

Best of all, I love that the Reds are playing a part in what may end up being one of the most exciting baseball seasons in a long time. From Kemp to Yoenis, the fab five in Washington to the circus in Miami, Harper to Hamilton, and reanimated Wright and Jeter, I'm soaking up storylines from around the country. I'm glad the world isn't ending until November.

Edskin
05-13-2012, 12:25 AM
I wanted to wait a few weeks before responding and letting some of these replies soak in.

After watching them so more, I still feel the same way. It's not that I'm physically bored watching the idividual games or players, but when I watch this team I see what what looks like a finished product (this year at least) and I'm very "eh" about it. I just don't see how at any point this year they will be much better than they are now. They might have a run or two, but I'd suspect it would be followed by a slump or two.

I guess the reason I find them not particularly enjoyable to follow is because it feels a little spinning my wheels as a fan. Personally, I'm also not a fan of pitchers who struggle to get through five and hitters who don't display plate discipline... And in that regard, there is a lot not to like on this team.

I am hopeful that our putrid division can give us a boost. We face the Brewers, Astros, Pirates, and Cubs quite a bit and that should help make us look better than we actually are.

But tonight, sellout crowd, down one in 9th against a backup closer and we deliver 3 K's.... On 10 pitches. Yikes.

bellhead
05-13-2012, 12:32 AM
This team will finish 10 games over .500 thanks to the schedule.

Vottomatic
05-13-2012, 02:21 AM
I wanted to wait a few weeks before responding and letting some of these replies soak in.

After watching them so more, I still feel the same way. It's not that I'm physically bored watching the idividual games or players, but when I watch this team I see what what looks like a finished product (this year at least) and I'm very "eh" about it. I just don't see how at any point this year they will be much better than they are now. They might have a run or two, but I'd suspect it would be followed by a slump or two.

I guess the reason I find them not particularly enjoyable to follow is because it feels a little spinning my wheels as a fan. Personally, I'm also not a fan of pitchers who struggle to get through five and hitters who don't display plate discipline... And in that regard, there is a lot not to like on this team.

I am hopeful that our putrid division can give us a boost. We face the Brewers, Astros, Pirates, and Cubs quite a bit and that should help make us look better than we actually are.

But tonight, sellout crowd, down one in 9th against a backup closer and we deliver 3 K's.... On 10 pitches. Yikes.

Good post. And alot here I agree with. But be careful, realism or negativity is not allowed on this board. You might be mistaken for a troll or something.

Aging broken down third baseman, who I like as a person and for his career before a Red. Management traded away his only viable replacement.

Cardinals sign Beltran for cleanup. Reds sign Ludwick for cleanup. Enough said.

Stubbs is a K machine that should be batting 8th. Dusty bats him 2nd.

Phillips is not a cleanup hitter.

Votto has no protection in the lineup.

This is a .500 team at best and as a fan who can see the solutions and realizes management can't, it's far too frustrating.

Yes, the bullpen is awesome. And the 3/5's of the starting rotation is pretty good. But the Nationals and Cardinals rotations make the Reds look silly.

And the Reds mediocre offense and poor plate discipline is beyond frustrating too.

I'm a fan. But this team is not fun to watch.

Patrick Bateman
05-13-2012, 02:36 AM
But be careful, realism or negativity is not allowed on this board. You might be mistaken for a troll or something.


Cry me a river.

It's not "realism" to say the game is over multiple posts in a row down by 1 in the 8th inning. That IS trolling.

Negativity, of calling a spade a spade, I don't think anyone takes issue with. This team is not without flaws, and I don't think you'll find anybody who can't live with that or recognize that. But at the same time, you haven't exactly been very secretive in hiding your agenda... there are more tactful ways in pointing out the flaws in the team.

Vottomatic
05-13-2012, 09:34 AM
Cry me a river.

It's not "realism" to say the game is over multiple posts in a row down by 1 in the 8th inning. That IS trolling.

Negativity, of calling a spade a spade, I don't think anyone takes issue with. This team is not without flaws, and I don't think you'll find anybody who can't live with that or recognize that. But at the same time, you haven't exactly been very secretive in hiding your agenda... there are more tactful ways in pointing out the flaws in the team.

Agenda? :laugh:

There's no cloak and dagger stuff here. I simply want a better team and I'm disappointed with the non-moves. I wanted Beltran, and as usual, the Cardinals made the move and the Reds ignore the cleanup hitter spot. They invest a gazillion dollars in Votto, and fail to get him pitches to hit.

I think that deserves criticism. If you can't handle it, then don't read my posts. Ignore is a beautiful thing. But please get off my back. I'm entitled to my opinion, and as long as I'm not insulting or jumping on other posters, there is nothing wrong with expressing it. I have to listen to the poster's that think everything is perfect in Redsland.

I'm getting tired of being harassed by you.

redsmetz
05-13-2012, 10:18 AM
Agenda? :laugh:

There's no cloak and dagger stuff here. I simply want a better team and I'm disappointed with the non-moves. I wanted Beltran, and as usual, the Cardinals made the move and the Reds ignore the cleanup hitter spot. They invest a gazillion dollars in Votto, and fail to get him pitches to hit.

And just where were the Reds going to get that extra $10M to pay Beltran (not to mention another $13M in the second year guarnateed) particularly with Votto's extension in the offing? Votto, even without a potent bat hitting behind him, is more valuable in the long run than two years of Beltran. This is the real world for teams, not a fantasy league where you can pick & choose as you like. Ludwick may not have been a good choice, but Beltran never was going to be in our budget.

St. Louis had the luxury of simply signing Beltran for a million & a half less than they were paying Pujols. These are simply different realities for our two clubs. To beat on that dead horse of "we should have signed Beltran" is to complete ignore those realities.

757690
05-13-2012, 10:28 AM
And just where were the Reds going to get that extra $10M to pay Beltran (not to mention another $13M in the second year guarnateed) particularly with Votto's extension in the offing? Votto, even without a potent bat hitting behind him, is more valuable in the long run than two years of Beltran. This is the real world for teams, not a fantasy league where you can pick & choose as you like. Ludwick may not have been a good choice, but Beltran never was going to be in our budget.

St. Louis had the luxury of simply signing Beltran for a million & a half less than they were paying Pujols. These are simply different realities for our two clubs. To beat on that dead horse of "we should have signed Beltran" is to complete ignore those realities.

Yep. Signing Beltran would have meant no Votto or Phillips extension. Pretty easy choice, imo.

Plus, lets evaluate all of this in a few months. Beltran had a great week, making the signing look good at this moment. Willy Taveras has a great first month as a Red, If I remember correctly. ;)

membengal
05-13-2012, 10:38 AM
I wanted to wait a few weeks before responding and letting some of these replies soak in.

After watching them so more, I still feel the same way. It's not that I'm physically bored watching the idividual games or players, but when I watch this team I see what what looks like a finished product (this year at least) and I'm very "eh" about it. I just don't see how at any point this year they will be much better than they are now. They might have a run or two, but I'd suspect it would be followed by a slump or two.

I guess the reason I find them not particularly enjoyable to follow is because it feels a little spinning my wheels as a fan. Personally, I'm also not a fan of pitchers who struggle to get through five and hitters who don't display plate discipline... And in that regard, there is a lot not to like on this team.

I am hopeful that our putrid division can give us a boost. We face the Brewers, Astros, Pirates, and Cubs quite a bit and that should help make us look better than we actually are.

But tonight, sellout crowd, down one in 9th against a backup closer and we deliver 3 K's.... On 10 pitches. Yikes.

Agreed.

Its little things...they are not running like they used to. That agressiveness on the basepaths that defined 2010 in terms of taking the extra base and pressuring defenses, it feels non-existent this year. Too many very weak at-bats with poor approach leading to inning after inning of what feels like few chances to string hits together.

They remain not all that much fun to watch right now. That's true whether its winning or losing.

PuffyPig
05-13-2012, 10:43 AM
There's no cloak and dagger stuff here. I simply want a better team and I'm disappointed with the non-moves. I wanted Beltran, and as usual, the Cardinals made the move and the Reds ignore the cleanup hitter spot. They invest a gazillion dollars in Votto, and fail to get him pitches to hit.

I think that deserves criticism. If you can't handle it, then don't read my posts. Ignore is a beautiful thing. But please get off my back. I'm entitled to my opinion, and as long as I'm not insulting or jumping on other posters, there is nothing wrong with expressing it. I have to listen to the poster's that think everything is perfect in Redsland.

I'm getting tired of being harassed by you.

I'm guessing you understand that the Reds have a budget on how much they spend, though I doubt you really care.

Saying "we should have spent $25M on Beltran" is utterly uselss unless you also specify which players on the team would be cut to save that money, because you can't simply spend that money in a vacuum. And to assume that Beltran would have simply come to Cincy for the same contract is foolish at best.

I doubt anyone thinks everyone is perfect in Cincy. But if you simply want to spend every post finding fault with everything Reds, you way as well start chering for another team, as you surely cannot be having any fun.

PuffyPig
05-13-2012, 10:50 AM
I think that deserves criticism. If you can't handle it, then don't read my posts. Ignore is a beautiful thing.

I'm getting tired of being harassed by you.

Gee, you'd think that someone who earlier expressed the opinion that "ignore is a beautiful thing" would have the ability to take his own advice.

So, you have the right to express your opinion, but no one else does?

If you can't handle Patrick Bateman's posts, why don't you ignore them? I suggest it's because you can't handle the truth.

Patrick Bateman
05-13-2012, 12:04 PM
Agenda? :laugh:

There's no cloak and dagger stuff here. I simply want a better team and I'm disappointed with the non-moves. I wanted Beltran, and as usual, the Cardinals made the move and the Reds ignore the cleanup hitter spot. They invest a gazillion dollars in Votto, and fail to get him pitches to hit.

I think that deserves criticism. If you can't handle it, then don't read my posts. Ignore is a beautiful thing. But please get off my back. I'm entitled to my opinion, and as long as I'm not insulting or jumping on other posters, there is nothing wrong with expressing it. I have to listen to the poster's that think everything is perfect in Redsland.

I'm getting tired of being harassed by you.

Your posts constantly fit the criteria against rule 5 at the bottom of the page. I'm not harassing you, I'm simply suggesting that making deceitful posts that are aimed to get under the skin of other posters (rather than intelligently discussing the Reds many flaws) is not any fun to read in the game thread.

powersackers
05-13-2012, 12:20 PM
It's not particularly fun to see that 32 games into the season only 3 Reds are OPS'ing over .700. Not including Frazier's 26 PAs. There are 122 MLBers that Qualify who OPS over .700. We don't have our fair share.

It is still, to me, particularly fun to watch just about every pitcher we put on the mound not named Leake.

It is still, to me, particularly fun to watch this team fight to be around .500 and only 3.5 games back when we are struggling so mightily at the plate.

It is still, to me, particularly fun to know we are getting the tying and winning runs to the plate late in games. Enough so, that I'm hanging on every pitch.

If you're a half empty type, the above is likely surrounded with negativity and you hang on each pitch thinking bad things. Half Full - you hang on each pitch thinking for the best.

Which are you?

westofyou
05-13-2012, 12:33 PM
I WANT a cookie NOW analysis of a six month season is boring, but the I WANT a cookie now and THEY have ONE analysis is grating.

No cookie for you

Kc61
05-13-2012, 01:35 PM
It is interesting fans' reaction to the current Reds team. There have been, and still are, many MLB teams that don't generate much offense. These teams get by on decent pitching and defense. Some have been quite successful.

It's an adjustment for a Reds fan, though, because we're used to teams that generate much offense. Up until mid-2011 that was the Reds' MO. Right now, the emphasis is on pitching and defense which results in very different types of games.

I think the team has been correct in stressing pitching and defense lately. Even without much hitting, the team is at .500, and if Walt now turns to some (perhaps modest) changes on offense, the team could be pretty good.

The one aspect of this "new" approach that is frustrating is the impact on Votto. He now has 31 walks I believe, and it's tough to watch other teams pitch around him all the time. When you have a great hitter, you want to see him produce, and the walks limit those at bats.

Overall it is an adjustment watching this current Reds team. Hopefully, there will be a renewed focus on offense now to bring the ballclub into balance. Again, I think it needs a few changes, it's not an insurmountable problem.

bellhead
05-13-2012, 01:58 PM
LF and 3rd base have been plain out bad this year, with CF not far behind. Stubbs is frustrating player in that he has a high baseball IQ but can't translate it into a high OBP. He chases pitches out of the zone a lot and it hurts him. Also he doesn't make contact a lot.

Kc61
05-13-2012, 02:10 PM
LF and 3rd base have been plain out bad this year, with CF not far behind. Stubbs is frustrating player in that he has a high baseball IQ but can't translate it into a high OBP. He chases pitches out of the zone a lot and it hurts him. Also he doesn't make contact a lot.

Keep in mind that most teams with weak offenses lack the big hitters. The Reds have Votto and Bruce. They also have Phillips who usually hits well for a middle infielder.

So the Reds' challenge on offense isn't that bad. They already have star hitters. IMO they need a high OBP guy for the top of the order and one more middle of the order bat. These guys need to hit righty pitching pretty well. Maybe another good bench guy too.

This shouldn't be that difficult to accomplish. Having strong pitching and a couple of star offensive players are the toughest things to accomplish. The Reds seem to have that already.

So I am frustrated but also optimistic going forward. And Walt must understand this, he will undoubtedly act on it.

PuffyPig
05-13-2012, 02:16 PM
It's not particularly fun to see that 32 games into the season only 3 Reds are OPS'ing over .700. Not including Frazier's 26 PAs. There are 122 MLBers that Qualify who OPS over .700. We don't have our fair share.



That's 4 per team, so were are hardly that bad.

Reds/Flyers Fan
05-13-2012, 02:27 PM
Keep in mind that most teams with weak offenses lack the big hitters. The Reds have Votto and Bruce. They also have Phillips who usually hits well for a middle infielder.

So the Reds' challenge on offense isn't that bad. They already have star hitters. IMO they need a high OBP guy for the top of the order and one more middle of the order bat. These guys need to hit righty pitching pretty well. Maybe another good bench guy too.

This shouldn't be that difficult to accomplish. Having strong pitching and a couple of star offensive players are the toughest things to accomplish. The Reds seem to have that already.

So I am frustrated but also optimistic going forward. And Walt must understand this, he will undoubtedly act on it.

He will? Which Walt have you been watching the past few years? He's high on the popularity-meter right now based only on the contract extensions to Votto, Bruce and Phillips. But Walt has done everything BUT show that he's willing to go out and address the glaring holes in this lineup - particularly in-season.

His patchwork quilt answer to LF (Gomes, Heisey, Ludwick, et al) has been nothing short of mediocre, his assembly of the bench has been disastrous and he has shown zero initiative to go out and make the trade-deadline or mid-summer additions. Not only that, but he defiantly scolds reporters when pressed on possible upgrades by saying things like "We're happy with what we have."

Kc61
05-13-2012, 03:06 PM
He will? Which Walt have you been watching the past few years? He's high on the popularity-meter right now based only on the contract extensions to Votto, Bruce and Phillips. But Walt has done everything BUT show that he's willing to go out and address the glaring holes in this lineup - particularly in-season.

His patchwork quilt answer to LF (Gomes, Heisey, Ludwick, et al) has been nothing short of mediocre, his assembly of the bench has been disastrous and he has shown zero initiative to go out and make the trade-deadline or mid-summer additions. Not only that, but he defiantly scolds reporters when pressed on possible upgrades by saying things like "We're happy with what we have."

Despite what he may say to the press, Walt has hardly been inactive. This past off-season he made many trades and signings, many of them well beyond patchwork.

But you are correct that he hasn't stressed offense. He came into this situation planning to rebuild defense and pitching and he's done that successfully, if not perfectly.

Up until mid-2011 the offense was productive and Walt put his priorities elsewhere. At this point, the pendulum seems to have swung the other way and I think he will now address offensive needs. The team has a .300 OBP (even with Votto around .450), second worst in the NL, Walt clearly understands this and will address it.

Walt is probably surprised that Ludwick hasn't been productive so far, but he was a relatively cheap gamble.

Look, I'm as frustrated as anyone, I've expressed it repeatedly, but looking at the bigger picture I think the Reds are in decent shape. And I think now that offense is a need, Walt will improve it.

Vottomatic
05-13-2012, 03:17 PM
Your posts constantly fit the criteria against rule 5 at the bottom of the page. I'm not harassing you, I'm simply suggesting that making deceitful posts that are aimed to get under the skin of other posters (rather than intelligently discussing the Reds many flaws) is not any fun to read in the game thread.

Rule #5? :laugh:

I'm disappointed in the team. Rule 5 applies to you and your treatment of those who disagree with you.

As for signing Beltran, I'm well aware the Reds are small market. It's confusing how they extend Votto (my favorite player) and Phillips but don't consider how they're going to protect Votto in the lineup.

Then you have Dusty batting a "hot" Bruce 5th, when he should be batting 4th when he is "hot". But he bats him 5th simply because he wants to break up the lefties.

1. New manager
2. Cleanup hitter

.500 team until then.

Frustrated that management cannot see this. It was a problem in 2010 when Rolen was hitting cleanup. They got lucky in 2010, and the Brewers and Cardinals realized it and made the necessary moves in the 2010 offseason, 2011, and before 2012 because they knew the division was there for the taking and that the Reds weren't good enough.

Here's to hoping the Reds management has more tricks up their sleeves because this team is not built to contend right now.

No baiting. No insulting. Simply frustrated, venting, and pointing out the needs.

Vottomatic
05-13-2012, 03:19 PM
He will? Which Walt have you been watching the past few years? He's high on the popularity-meter right now based only on the contract extensions to Votto, Bruce and Phillips. But Walt has done everything BUT show that he's willing to go out and address the glaring holes in this lineup - particularly in-season.

His patchwork quilt answer to LF (Gomes, Heisey, Ludwick, et al) has been nothing short of mediocre, his assembly of the bench has been disastrous and he has shown zero initiative to go out and make the trade-deadline or mid-summer additions. Not only that, but he defiantly scolds reporters when pressed on possible upgrades by saying things like "We're happy with what we have."

Good post. :thumbup:

Vottomatic
05-13-2012, 03:26 PM
LF and 3rd base have been plain out bad this year, with CF not far behind. Stubbs is frustrating player in that he has a high baseball IQ but can't translate it into a high OBP. He chases pitches out of the zone a lot and it hurts him. Also he doesn't make contact a lot.

Yeah it's interesting how the Reds have gradually been slotting certain positions with guys who figure to be long term answers, namely - catcher (Hanigan, Mez), 1B (Votto), 2B (BP), SS (Cozart), RF (Bruce), a solid bullpen, and a decent starting rotation that could still use possibly one more upgrade.

But you are correct in that 3B, LF, and CF are weak links. Especially that LF and 3B are often power hitters and sometimes cleanup hitters, which this team lacks. Stubbs may be the most frustrating player on the team. He's either swinging at pitches out of the zone, or not swinging at the fat pitch right down the middle. He K's too much and doesn't make enough contact to be near the top of the order. If we had a solid LFer and 3Bman, then you might get by with just Stubbs defense. But with Votto being pitched around, that pretty much leaves Bruce and BP to provide the lacking power. And how much pressure is that putting on Jay? on BP?

Then factor in the small market payroll constrictions and mentality, and there is little hope of filling the LF, 3B and cleanup hitter void. And there are no answers immediately in the farm system either.

Paying Votto a gazillion dollars and watching the other team constantly pitch around him isn't very much fun. But the Brewers understood that and had Braun/Fielder. The Cardinals understood it in the past with Pujols/Holliday. The Reds don't get it.

Ghosts of 1990
05-13-2012, 03:34 PM
I have to wonder what bringing in Beltran rather than Ludwick would have done for the entire offense. I felt like Beltran would have been a nice piece to add on a one or two year deal even with the questionable seasons he had prior to this year.

_Sir_Charles_
05-13-2012, 03:45 PM
After all the complaining...where are the proposed solutions? LF, 3B and cleanup are weak. So where does Walt get those fixes? Solid hitting/defending third base men don't grow on trees. Power hitting LF'ers are certainly more common than the 3b options, but they're also much more expensive. Where does the money come from? Cleanup hitters, TRUE cleanup hitters aren't as common as you'd think. And the ones that ARE there for the taking are extremely expensive.

Sitting back and playing arm-chair GM is easier said than done. Calling Walt out and pointing out the team flaws is easy. Actual, viable solutions are NOT easy.

3B, the name I keep seeing is Youk. How's his defense? How's his offense currently? He's not an upgrade at this point. And considering the cost, I just don't see him as a fit. Not even close.

OF. Okay, Beltran. That ship has sailed...what's the point in moaning about it? The big hitting guys cost a ton and for the most part they can't field worth a darn.

Griping and moaning only makes the atmosphere around here miserable. Come up with a true, viable solution...and then lets talk. Until then, it's nothing but boosting your post count. Just my 2 cents.

(As for me, I'm still being patient. The hitters will come around. For a team struggling, we're still right in the thick of things which ain't too bad.)

mth123
05-13-2012, 04:04 PM
I'm with KC. IMO, most of the pieces to not only be a playoff team, but a championship caliber team are in place. They simply need to add the right complementary pieces that can give the team what it lacks. The decision to go with Ludwick when guys like Seth Smith were on the market for very little and the decision to deal Francisco looks bad IMO. This team has had a fairly short line-up against RHP for a while. Rolen, Phillips, Stubbs, Hanigan and Cairo have all been lefty killers (Rolen since mid-2010 the others always). When the team dealt away Alonso and let Hernandez go, they were both the right moves, but that shortened an already mediocre line-up vs RHP considerably. Francisco provided offense against RHP in spots and now he's gone too. A couple guys, not necessarily big stars, could really change the complexion of the line-up if the team would have just gone after them.

If this team can get Bray and Masset back, they should have an arm to deal. Either one of Leake or Bailey if Chapman moves into the rotation, or somebody like Arredondo if Chapman stays in the pen. Either way, those guys, along with a middling minor leaguer if need be, should be enough to get what's missing. They don't need an "empty the farm, bust the budget" deal. A simple addition of a role player or two who can provide something different than the overload of low OBP, medium power RH bats on the roster would go a long, long way IMO.

Edskin
05-13-2012, 04:42 PM
I'm not complaining. I like Walt and generally have agreed with his moves and the general direction of the franchise. Contrary to what WOY said, I'm not stomping my feet demanding a cookie.... Just expressing my honest gut reaction to this team thus far. Of course if they win 20 of the next 25 or something I'd be excited and would probably suddenly enjoy watchig them-- my observation is that I find this particular team boring because I fail to see upside. Perhaps that is my own vision problem and I'll be proven wrong (hope so) by the end of the season.

westofyou
05-13-2012, 04:48 PM
I'm not complaining. I like Walt and generally have agreed with his moves and the general direction of the franchise. Contrary to what WOY said, I'm not stomping my feet demanding a cookie.... Just expressing my honest gut reaction to this team thus far. Of course if they win 20 of the next 25 or something I'd be excited and would probably suddenly enjoy watchig them-- my observation is that I find this particular team boring because I fail to see upside. Perhaps that is my own vision problem and I'll be proven wrong (hope so) by the end of the season.

My reply was not directed at you Ed.

I also am not against venting a concern over the current squads performance.

But we can't gerrymander history, looking backward is not going to solve the teams issues, nor will going all Game of Thrones on every nights scapegoat. That's the tune that's in heavy rotation.

PuffyPig
05-13-2012, 05:38 PM
Paying Votto a gazillion dollars and watching the other team constantly pitch around him isn't very much fun. But the Brewers understood that and had Braun/Fielder. The Cardinals understood it in the past with Pujols/Holliday. The Reds don't get it.

I guess the Brewers and Cards no longer get it because Fielder and Pujols are gone.

No one was pitched around more than Pujols in the last decade. And like Votto, his hitting never suffered.

Edskin
05-13-2012, 06:47 PM
My reply was not directed at you Ed.

I also am not against venting a concern over the current squads performance.

But we can't gerrymander history, looking backward is not going to solve the teams issues, nor will going all Game of Thrones on every nights scapegoat. That's the tune that's in heavy rotation.

Gotcha; I certainly agree that baseball is not a "reactionary" game where you have heroes and goats nightly....and if you take that approach your posts will likely come off as overly emotional.

Cedric
05-13-2012, 09:00 PM
What's not fun is watching Ryan Ludwick take his hacks. The fact that Walt actually thought he was a relevant option is scary to me. That and the Phillips extension have me seriously worried about his ability to run this team.

hebroncougar
05-13-2012, 09:36 PM
I just had fun..............:D

Vottomatic
05-13-2012, 09:37 PM
I've never seen a walk off grand salami until today. That was fun. That's why my username is after him.

hebroncougar
05-13-2012, 09:38 PM
I've never seen a walk off grand salami until today. That was fun. That's why my username is after him.


That's the second I can remember, Dunner had one against Cleveland a few years ago.

_Sir_Charles_
05-13-2012, 09:38 PM
I just had fun..............:D

*high five*

Big Klu
05-13-2012, 09:52 PM
I WANT a cookie NOW analysis of a six month season is boring, but the I WANT a cookie now and THEY have ONE analysis is grating.

No cookie for you



http://www.seinfeld-fan.net/pictures/episodes/the_soup_nazi/the_soup_nazi017.jpg

hebroncougar
05-13-2012, 10:42 PM
Here's the deal, IMO. The Reds can't score if they don't hit HR's. So if they aren't hitting HR's, they are no "fun" to watch. Reds hit HR's.............gooooooooooooooooood.

757690
05-13-2012, 10:48 PM
Hopefully, Mother's Day, May 13, is remembered as the day during the 2012 season that the Reds became fun to watch :)

dougdirt
05-13-2012, 11:37 PM
This wasn't fun. Fun isn't a good enough word for what today was.

Edskin
05-13-2012, 11:51 PM
That was fun, gotta admit :) glad I stuck it out....

The Dunn GS against Cleveland was also a historical footnote... It was an "Ultimate Slam"

This can only occur when you are down by three exactly, two outs, bases loaded in bottom of 9 or extras. I beleive it has only happened 5/6 times in MLB history

Superdude
05-13-2012, 11:53 PM
This wasn't fun. Fun isn't a good enough word for what today was.

I love those moments when statistics, rationality, and odds get trounced by drama, poetry, and Joey Freakin' Votto. The moment was just too perfect for him to not do something epic.

And it was all capped off by a classic, "IT'S GONNA BEEEeeeEEE GOONE!".

dougdirt
05-13-2012, 11:55 PM
I love those moments when statistics, rationality, and odds get trounced by drama, poetry, and Joey Freakin' Votto. The moment was just too perfect for him to not do something epic.

And it was all capped off by a classic, "IT'S GONNA BEEEeeeEEE GOONE!".

I was watching the game upstairs with my mom and brother. My dad was downstairs watching the game and working on something. Before Votto even got to second base my dad and I were running toward the top of the steps ready to high five.

PuffyPig
05-14-2012, 12:16 AM
The Reds win as many walk off games as any team, it seems to me.

Anyone that gives up before the game is over is missing the best part of the sport.

In fact, if winning was that easy, it wouldn't be much fun would it?

Scrap Irony
05-14-2012, 01:12 AM
That's the second I can remember, Dunner had one against Cleveland a few years ago.

The Dunn game was my nephew's first Red game in person. We almost left in the sixth, seventh, and eighth innings, but he convinced me to stay each time.

Mine was an 11-3 snoozefest to the Pirates, IIRC.

powersackers
05-14-2012, 01:34 AM
Just watched it on DVR after avoiding TV and radio all day so I could enjoy every pitch. And like I said earlier gutsy at bats and a half full attitude made this game an absolute thriller!

Chip R
05-14-2012, 10:11 AM
I'm more surprised the bases were loaded than I was when Votto hit that one out.

Interesting how neither of Votto's solo HRs weren't termed "Rally Killers"

bucksfan2
05-14-2012, 01:20 PM
I'm more surprised the bases were loaded than I was when Votto hit that one out.

Interesting how neither of Votto's solo HRs weren't termed "Rally Killers"

I was absolutely shocked when both Heisey and Stubbs walked. I thought there was about a 5% chance they would hit the ball in play facing that closer.

oneupper
05-14-2012, 03:51 PM
I'm more surprised the bases were loaded than I was when Votto hit that one out.

Interesting how neither of Votto's solo HRs weren't termed "Rally Killers"

I was about to propose a new nickname for Votto: "Tobey", as in Two Outs Bases EmptY, since it seems he always comes up to bat in that situation. :D

REDREAD
05-14-2012, 04:45 PM
Cardinals sign Beltran for cleanup. Reds sign Ludwick for cleanup. Enough said.
.

Well, assuming that Beltran would've signed here for the same contract he got from the Cards (Huge assumption, the Reds most likely would've had to up the ante).. That means no Sean Marshal and no Madson. Then everyone would've been complaining that we let Coco walk and spent all this money on Votto but we are using Logan as a closer.

Everyone was complaining about the pitching staff last year (rightfully so).
That was addressed. As someone else pointed out in, Walt had a lot of turnover on the team. So far, most of his offseason moves have worked out.
Calling him a failure because he didn't sign Beltran doesn't make a lot of sense.

The Reds are only 2.5 games out of first now. If they need a rental bat a the deadline, that should be easy to get. (Much easier than adding pitching at the deadline).. We are close to first, despite getting very little production out of Homer, Leake, LF, 3B, etc, etc.. There's still a lot of upside in this team (maybe not out of Rolen, but other spots)..

Some people act as if we are already 20 games out of first..

REDREAD
05-14-2012, 04:59 PM
I'm with KC. IMO, most of the pieces to not only be a playoff team, but a championship caliber team are in place. They simply need to add the right complementary pieces that can give the team what it lacks. The decision to go with Ludwick when guys like Seth Smith were on the market for very little and the decision to deal Francisco looks bad IMO. .

Juan Fransicso has a 250 OBP right now, and has not exactly been a good defensive player. Plus it seemed like he had bad attitude, was out of shape in spring, etc. Obviously the Reds gave him every opportunity to succeed and then decided Hoover was more valuable to them.
So far, I agree with the trade. Hoover has been more valuable (although that may change in the future).

Your other points were solid, but I am not in the least bit upset with dealing Fransiciso.

Vottomatic
05-14-2012, 07:05 PM
Well, assuming that Beltran would've signed here for the same contract he got from the Cards (Huge assumption, the Reds most likely would've had to up the ante).. That means no Sean Marshal and no Madson. Then everyone would've been complaining that we let Coco walk and spent all this money on Votto but we are using Logan as a closer.

Everyone was complaining about the pitching staff last year (rightfully so).
That was addressed. As someone else pointed out in, Walt had a lot of turnover on the team. So far, most of his offseason moves have worked out.
Calling him a failure because he didn't sign Beltran doesn't make a lot of sense.

The Reds are only 2.5 games out of first now. If they need a rental bat a the deadline, that should be easy to get. (Much easier than adding pitching at the deadline).. We are close to first, despite getting very little production out of Homer, Leake, LF, 3B, etc, etc.. There's still a lot of upside in this team (maybe not out of Rolen, but other spots)..

Some people act as if we are already 20 games out of first..

Beltran is an example of what the Reds need. There's one group on here that abhors any mention of payroll constrictions or small market. They think the Reds are too tight to expand payroll and get what they need. And there's another group that is constantly saying the Reds cannot afford any of these guys.

Personally, I realize there are payroll constraints. But if they had a good cleanup hitter, and were ahead of the Cardinals and in first place, I bet attendance would even be slightly better. I think there are still fans waiting to see if this team is the real deal. Latos slow start, Leake's rough start, Rolen struggling and now on the DL, the offense being boring and ugly............this team needs a jolt. All of my Reds friends immediately bring up the lack of a cleanup hitter.

So maybe the Reds couldn't afford Beltran. Maybe he was never an option. Based on payroll limitations, there were no good options. Only retreads and scrap heap options. But that seems to be the difference between the Reds and the Cardinals.

Cardinals have Beltran.
Reds signed Ludwick.

It speaks volumes.
And probably has alot to do with why the Cardinals are in first place.

PuffyPig
05-14-2012, 10:43 PM
All of my Reds friends ........

Sometimes it just gets placed on a tee.......

westofyou
05-14-2012, 10:47 PM
Sometimes it just gets placed on a tee.......

Get out of my head!!

_Sir_Charles_
05-14-2012, 11:40 PM
LOL. You guys are just mean. Funny, but mean. :laugh:

VR
05-14-2012, 11:46 PM
Talk all you want about boring.....but the Cards starting pitching, and most of their lineup, has played almost perfect baseball 6 weeks into the season. The Reds haven't hit a hot streak, have 2 starters that have performed well, can't hit a lick......and they are exactly 1.5 games out of first place.

Solid starting pitching, fantastic defense, great bullpen........the hitting will come around. When it does, adios NL Central. :wave:

WVRedsFan
05-14-2012, 11:52 PM
Talk all you want about boring.....but the Cards starting pitching, and most of their lineup, has played almost perfect baseball 6 weeks into the season. The Reds haven't hit a hot streak, have 2 starters that have performed well, can't hit a lick......and they are exactly 1.5 games out of first place.

Solid starting pitching, fantastic defense, great bullpen........the hitting will come around. When it does, adios NL Central. :wave:
:thumbup:

powersackers
05-15-2012, 02:47 AM
Talk all you want about boring.....but the Cards starting pitching, and most of their lineup, has played almost perfect baseball 6 weeks into the season. The Reds haven't hit a hot streak, have 2 starters that have performed well, can't hit a lick......and they are exactly 1.5 games out of first place.

Solid starting pitching, fantastic defense, great bullpen........the hitting will come around. When it does, adios NL Central. :wave:

What does the ORG talk about when that happens? The Weather?

RBA
05-15-2012, 04:31 AM
What does the ORG talk about when that happens? The Weather?

The pitching rotation for the playoffs.

reds44
05-15-2012, 04:53 AM
Reds won a game with 8/9 home grown players in the starting lineup at 8/9 players younger than 29.

I find that exciting.

Vottomatic
05-15-2012, 08:55 AM
I've enjoyed the last 2 games because obviously we won.

But the title of the thread makes me laugh because I was watching that 2-1 loss with my 75 year old Dad and he made similar comments about the team. He grew up going to Crosley Field as a kid and teenager because his oldest brother (who was 22 years older than him) had season tickets. Then my Dad eventually had season tickets of his own at Crosley, and then for the entire existence of Riverfront Stadium. He decided to not renew when they moved to GABP. He's seen alot of Reds baseball. He also had Royals (NBA) season tickets too, but I digress.

Anyway, he watched that 2-1 loss and looks at me and says "they just aren't that fun to watch". Made me think of this thread. :laugh:

bucksfan2
05-15-2012, 10:27 AM
I kinda agree with Vottomatic. I don't find this team particularly fun to watch. Even a game like Sunday which had a great finish, was pretty awful for 8 innings of baseball. I think it has more to do with the construction of this offense than anything else. More than anything I think they need a good hitter. A hitter who can work the count, a hitter who isn't going to strike out at such a high rate. IMO thats the biggest problem I have with this team. I think if they cut down on the K's this team becomes more enjoyable to watch.

klw
05-15-2012, 11:29 AM
Here's one way to look at it.
http://espn.go.com/blog/sweetspot/post/_/id/24430/clearing-the-bases-kershaw-is-good

Second base: Reds scare. So the St. Louis Cardinals have outscored their opponents by 63 runs, they have an MVP candidate in Carlos Beltran, six guys in Monday's lineup hitting over .300 (none of whom were Beltran, Matt Holliday or David Freese) and three starters with an ERA under 2.50. The Cincinnati Reds have outscored their opponents by six runs, have three starters with an ERA over 4.00, five guys in Monday's lineup hitting under .260 and only one hitter who has more than nine walks. And, somehow, the Reds are just 1.5 games behind the Cardinals.

The question is which team "normalizes" more.

Ron Madden
05-15-2012, 11:41 AM
I love the Reds and watching baseball in general, it may get discouraging during a losing streak but I enjoy watching this team play baseball.

I believe watching a Reds game is more enjoyable than the game threads make it out to be. ;)

Vottomatic
05-15-2012, 12:05 PM
I kinda agree with Vottomatic. I don't find this team particularly fun to watch. Even a game like Sunday which had a great finish, was pretty awful for 8 innings of baseball. I think it has more to do with the construction of this offense than anything else. More than anything I think they need a good hitter. A hitter who can work the count, a hitter who isn't going to strike out at such a high rate. IMO thats the biggest problem I have with this team. I think if they cut down on the K's this team becomes more enjoyable to watch.

The K's do bother me. The lack of making contact is frustrating.

The lineup construction disturbs me, and the lack of a true cleanup hitter, which I've covered a gazillion times bothers me.

In 2010, they seemed to have alot of timely hits. Last night they did too, but more often than not, they haven't.

But then again, as people have pointed out, the Cardinals stats look invincible while the Reds aren't playing up to their stats yet, but the Reds are only 1.5 games behind. So there definitely is hope as the Cardinals hot start put them in position to bury the Reds, but they couldn't do it.

Kc61
05-15-2012, 12:19 PM
The K's do bother me. The lack of making contact is frustrating.

The lineup construction disturbs me, and the lack of a true cleanup hitter, which I've covered a gazillion times bothers me.

In 2010, they seemed to have alot of timely hits. Last night they did too, but more often than not, they haven't.

But then again, as people have pointed out, the Cardinals stats look invincible while the Reds aren't playing up to their stats yet, but the Reds are only 1.5 games behind. So there definitely is hope as the Cardinals hot start put them in position to bury the Reds, but they couldn't do it.

Looking forward, for me there are two key basic stats at issue.

The Reds team ERA is 3.35 as of today. Playing in the Central, with smaller ballparks, this is probably not sustainable. It is WAY below any Reds team ERA in recent years. Hopefully the team ERA will be in the 3.75 range by year's end, that would be a huge improvement over the last years. Smaller would be even better.

The Reds team OBP is .300, now down to .290 againts RHP. This is unsustainably low IMO. One would have to expect improvement in this area, at least to the .320 range overall and hopefully higher. Just to reach some semblance of a normal OBP for a reasonable offense.

Result: games should involve more scoring and baserunners on both sides going forward, which tends to add the excitement of watching ball games.

PuffyPig
05-15-2012, 12:28 PM
I believe watching a Reds game is more enjoyable than the game threads make it out to be. ;)

It is.

The majority of Reds fans who enjoy watching them are doing just that...watching the Reds.

The game thread is populated but non-Red fans and those that would rather be critical than enjoy the game. With some exceptions of course.

It's why the game thread is generally intolerable and its usage declining every year.

757690
05-15-2012, 12:29 PM
I love the Reds and watching baseball in general, it may get discouraging during a losing streak but I enjoy watching this team play baseball.

I believe watching a Reds game is more enjoyable than the game threads make it out to be. ;)

I've always enjoyed watching the Reds play, even during the 1982-84 seasons.

cumberlandreds
05-15-2012, 12:42 PM
I've always enjoyed watching the Reds play, even during the 1982-84 seasons.

Me too. I just enjoyed 1972-1976 a lot more. :)

REDREAD
05-15-2012, 01:15 PM
Cardinals have Beltran.
Reds signed Ludwick.

It speaks volumes.
And probably has alot to do with why the Cardinals are in first place.

It's all a matter of prioirites though.
Answer honestly.
When last season ended, did you think the Reds #1 priority was pitching or a cleanup hitter?
The Reds spent their budget very wisely.
They were able to absorb 3 key injuries in the bullpen, yet still have one of the best bullpens in baseball. That's pretty incredible.

The Cardinals are only in first place by 1.5 games, despite a very disappointing start by the Reds.

I still don't think the problem is the lack of a cleanup hitter.
if Leake or Homer could've gotten their act together from Day 1 (and Latos to some degree too), the Reds would be in first place now.
Not that it's a big deal though.. the Reds are going to be strong contenders.
Only 1.5 games back, despite a stumbling start.

If Masset or Bray gets healthy, there still might be the opportunity to displace Leake or Bailey out of the rotation and put Chapman there.
Also, the position players are hitting better now.

REDREAD
05-15-2012, 01:18 PM
What does the ORG talk about when that happens? The Weather?

The ORG will complain about how the team was built to win the division but not the World Series. :lol:

Then if the Reds win the World Series, they will complain the team was not built to be a 10 year dynasty :lol:

hebroncougar
05-15-2012, 01:25 PM
It's all a matter of prioirites though.
Answer honestly.
When last season ended, did you think the Reds #1 priority was pitching or a cleanup hitter?
The Reds spent their budget very wisely.
They were able to absorb 3 key injuries in the bullpen, yet still have one of the best bullpens in baseball. That's pretty incredible.

The Cardinals are only in first place by 1.5 games, despite a very disappointing start by the Reds.

I still don't think the problem is the lack of a cleanup hitter.
if Leake or Homer could've gotten their act together from Day 1 (and Latos to some degree too), the Reds would be in first place now.
Not that it's a big deal though.. the Reds are going to be strong contenders.
Only 1.5 games back, despite a stumbling start.

If Masset or Bray gets healthy, there still might be the opportunity to displace Leake or Bailey out of the rotation and put Chapman there.
Also, the position players are hitting better now.

Exactly. You want Beltran for the next two years, or do you want to lock up Votto or Phillips? That's what it boiled down to.

VR
05-15-2012, 01:32 PM
The question is which team "normalizes" more.



Here's one way to look at it.
http://espn.go.com/blog/sweetspot/po...ershaw-is-good

Quote:
Second base: Reds scare. So the St. Louis Cardinals have outscored their opponents by 63 runs, they have an MVP candidate in Carlos Beltran, six guys in Monday's lineup hitting over .300 (none of whom were Beltran, Matt Holliday or David Freese) and three starters with an ERA under 2.50. The Cincinnati Reds have outscored their opponents by six runs, have three starters with an ERA over 4.00, five guys in Monday's lineup hitting under .260 and only one hitter who has more than nine walks. And, somehow, the Reds are just 1.5 games behind the Cardinals.

The question is which team "normalizes" more.

I think some ESPN blogger reads RZ and stole my material!!

membengal
05-16-2012, 07:28 AM
Exactly. You want Beltran for the next two years, or do you want to lock up Votto or Phillips? That's what it boiled down to.

I wanted Beltran for two years, lock up Votto, let Phillips walk.

I still want that.

DGullett35
05-16-2012, 07:44 AM
If this team can stay just above or at the .500 mark until they start hitting I think they will be fine. Chase Headley is 2nd to Votto in walks for the season. I agree we need more guys to work pitchers and get on base for Bruce and Joey. Headley would be a perfect fit in this lineup.

traderumor
05-16-2012, 10:26 AM
I wanted Beltran for two years, lock up Votto, let Phillips walk.

I still want that.Beltran's knees are already barking. His hot start has everyone salivating, yet his health issues didn't go anywhere.

RedEye
05-16-2012, 10:55 AM
If this team can stay just above or at the .500 mark until they start hitting I think they will be fine. Chase Headley is 2nd to Votto in walks for the season. I agree we need more guys to work pitchers and get on base for Bruce and Joey. Headley would be a perfect fit in this lineup.

I agree with you, but I feel like this is déja vu all over again from last season. I just don't want another season of having the team hover at or below .500 for months. At some point, they need to go on a run -- and it would be better now than later.

DGullett35
05-16-2012, 11:01 AM
The schedule gets easier after this roadtrip. Hopefully we can get on a roll then. I wouldn't mind being 20-20 after this weekend.

REDREAD
05-16-2012, 12:13 PM
I agree with you, but I feel like this is déja vu all over again from last season. I just don't want another season of having the team hover at or below .500 for months. At some point, they need to go on a run -- and it would be better now than later.

Well, they did have a run where they won about 2/3 of their games (14-7 or something like that).. Unfortunately, it came after their crappy start :laugh:

At least we know they have a run in them.
Last night was not a fun game to watch (could not stomach the whole game), but I'm willing to forgive Cueto one bad start :)


I'm still optimistic we can contend this year.

OnBaseMachine
05-17-2012, 05:16 PM
I've been saying this for the past few weeks and I stand by it: The Reds are destined to be a .500 (at best) team this season. They just aren't that good. The offense is pitiful. Look at today's game. A good team would have put that game away, but the Reds couldn't do it despite having plenty of chances. 2nd and 3rd, no outs = no runs. Very next inning they wasted a lead off double. Those things happen far too often with this offense and it's the reason they will remain around .500.

reds44
05-17-2012, 05:24 PM
They've given up 9 runs. 6 of them with two guys who had given up 0 runs coming into tonight on the mound.

Blame the offense!

Tom Servo
05-17-2012, 05:26 PM
Still to early to get a real grasp on it, I think. These snap judgments over one game in particular don't tell us anything.

OnBaseMachine
05-17-2012, 05:26 PM
They've given up 9 runs. 6 of them with two guys who had given up 0 runs coming into tonight on the mound.

Blame the offense!

The Reds have the 6th best ERA in all of baseball and are 22nd in runs scored despite playing in a huge hitters park.

Blame the pitching!!!

reds44
05-17-2012, 05:28 PM
When you give up 9 runs in a game, it's the pitching's fault. Not hard.

OnBaseMachine
05-17-2012, 05:33 PM
When you are 6th in MLB in pitching and only a game above .500 because the offense is in the bottom 10, it's the offense. Not hard.

reds44
05-17-2012, 05:36 PM
When you are 6th in MLB in pitching and only a game above .500 because the offense is in the bottom 10, it's the offense. Not hard.
It's May 17th. It's impossible to take anything from these numbers. They lost a game today because a guy who has been impossible to touch this year got shellacked. It happens. They could have scored more, the pen could have pitched better, Latos could have went deeper into the game. Go get em tomorrow.

It's not like the Reds are 10 games under right now. They're a game over. Relax.

Reds/Flyers Fan
05-17-2012, 07:34 PM
They've given up 9 runs. 6 of them with two guys who had given up 0 runs coming into tonight on the mound.

Blame the offense!

The nine runs given up were a total aberration. While Latos has been nothing short of mediocre, Chapman and Ondrusek won't melt down like that often.

What isn't an aberration is the two measly runs driven in by their regular offensive starters today. Of the four runs the Reds scored, one was on a sac fly by the pitcher and another was on a gift wild pitch. So yet another in a long line of lame offensive outings by this team. Not the pitching's fault at all.

dougdirt
05-17-2012, 07:39 PM
Well, today was not fun to watch.

membengal
05-18-2012, 07:05 AM
Beltran's knees are already barking. His hot start has everyone salivating, yet his health issues didn't go anywhere.

Given the risk that this team took on with Scott Rolen and that so SO many applauded on this board, I didn't and still don't see 2 years of risk on Beltran and those knees as an issue.

Vottomatic
05-18-2012, 07:51 AM
Let's acquire Wright from the Mets. It would take our entire farm system in trade, and we couldn't afford him, but he'd sure look good batting cleanup. Dude is a tough at-bat. :D

corkedbat
05-22-2012, 10:45 PM
They Just Aren't a Particularly Fun Team to Watch, Are They?

Can't say that when Aroldis is on the bump. :D Man, I love to watch him pitch!

traderumor
05-22-2012, 11:19 PM
Given the risk that this team took on with Scott Rolen and that so SO many applauded on this board, I didn't and still don't see 2 years of risk on Beltran and those knees as an issue.Isn't there a little bit of difference in the $ there? $26M is what the Cards gave him. Not sure that's an apples to apples.

Puffy
05-23-2012, 11:45 AM
Isn't there a little bit of difference in the $ there? $26M is what the Cards gave him. Not sure that's an apples to apples.

I think a future Cy Young winner equals $26 million, right?? :lol:

Benihana
05-23-2012, 12:10 PM
I think they are a pretty fun team to watch.

Especially when Cueto, Latos, or Chapman is on the bump.

Sea Ray
05-23-2012, 12:16 PM
Hitting .199 w/ RISP is awfully boring

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/stats/byteam?cat=Situational&cut_type=39&conference=MLB&year=season_2012&sort=722

redsmetz
05-23-2012, 12:32 PM
Hitting .199 w/ RISP is awfully boring

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/stats/byteam?cat=Situational&cut_type=39&conference=MLB&year=season_2012&sort=722

Is it possible to narrow that to the last two weeks or just this month?

PuffyPig
05-23-2012, 12:37 PM
Hitting .199 w/ RISP is awfully boring

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/stats/byteam?cat=Situational&cut_type=39&conference=MLB&year=season_2012&sort=722


Since that (clutch) tends to be a random stat, it bodes well for the future.

Tom Servo
05-23-2012, 01:15 PM
Being 4 games over .500 and .5 out from the division lead is pretty fun.

Vottomatic
06-06-2012, 12:27 AM
Geez. Went down to the game tonight against the Pirates. Took my 15 year old daughter and my 75 year old father.

I know people think I'm negative, but this team really isn't any fun to watch. It's not because they lost. There are things, that if you've seen alot of baseball in your life, and seen good teams, you just know that a team just isn't good enough.

I haven't seen the boxscore, so this is off the top of my head:
Cozart - I think he had 3 singles. One key at-bat, he took 2 strikes, 1 ball, and another strike. Never lefted the bat off his shoulder. Walked back to the dugout.

Votto - amazing hitter. Worth the money every at-bat and made a nice snag on a line drive defensively late in the game.

Phillips - 4 K's. Just flat out looked horrible. Why is he batting cleanup????

I won't go player by player anymore. I'm guessing the team had 14 or 16 K's as a team. It was pathetic. How Jacoby has a job, I have no clue. These so-called hitters basically swing for the fence or strikeout.

I couldn't help but think about the 1990 team tonight. Guys like Larkin, and Sabo, and Hal Morris, who knew how to give a professional at-bat, work a pitcher, and gave quality at-bats most of the time. Guys that could work a walk, steal a base, manufacture runs, etc. Hatcher. Mariano Duncan on 2nd. Those guys weren't all or nothing, HR or K. They knew how to play small ball and get it done. This Reds team has no clue except for Votto. If you're a long time Reds fan, like I am, you've seen what a good team can do. This team is one bad stretch of starting pitching from being the Pirates you know what. Swing for the fences. All or nothing.

On the way down to the game we got to hear Dusty and Marty's pregame comments. Dusty was talking about how the Pirates were now in "our house" where "we" hit alot of HR's. Well Dusty? Looked to me like the Pirates not only out home runned you. They also manufactured runs and their pitching made your hitters look more than stupid. Hanrahan striking out BP, Bruce, and Heisey to end the game epitomized this team's offensive problems. When your 4, 5, and 6 hitters can't get it done with runners on base, it's time to worry. When you're 1 and 2 hitters are batting less than .250, it's time to worry.

Votto should have not signed and gone to free agency to sign with a team that knows how to construct a lineup. I feel sorry for the dude. He signed off to play in Siberia, with a bunch of crap hitters around him.

And running Mr. K himself out there to pinch hit with 2 men on........what was Dusty thinking running Costanzo out there?

I heard BP on WLW being interviewed by Sag before the game. Joking around and talking about how they were going to show the Bucs what the Reds are made of. Well he sure showed them with 4 K's. All with runners on, I believe.

I don't believe the starting rotation is good enough to carry this team all season. And I don't believe the offense is good enough either. It won't surprise me to see the Pirates take over 1st place at some point. Their manager gets "it". Ours doesn't.

My Dad played baseball in high school and small college. He reminisces about Klu and Gus Bell, and the 50's, 60's and 70's when he had season tickets at Crosley and then at Riverfront until they tore it down. He doesn't think much of this team either. Says the division must be weak, the competition poor, and the Reds must be the best of the worst.

He might be right. As long as I watch this poorly constructed lineup and offense, I just can't buy in to this team. Sure, I hope I'm wrong. But I've seen alot of baseball like my Dad, and I just don't see it.

Superdude
06-06-2012, 01:03 AM
A whole bunch of terrible at bats tonight, and the low OBP/high K makeup of this lineup is just grating. I sure hope this pitching holds up.

Tom Servo
06-06-2012, 01:07 AM
Even the best teams can look sluggish, certainly the Rangers fans weren't having fun when the Mariners put up a 21 spot on them.

The Operator
06-06-2012, 01:12 AM
It's one game. Frustrating, yes.

But for a few years now The Pirates have had The Reds' number, for whatever reason. This is the same Reds team that swept Atlanta in 4 games, beat the Yankees 2 out of 3, etc.

I'm not worrying just yet.

REDREAD
06-06-2012, 02:03 AM
Well, tonight was not a fun game..No one is going to argue that.
But there's been plenty of fun games.

Yes, this team is a low OBP offense that really relies on extra base hits.
Although Stubbs is on pace to score about 100 runs, despite the bad start.

Phillips has won plenty of games for us. I can forgive him for a bad night.

It was just a night where the pitching and offense failed.. makes for a bad game to see, but they are still a good team.

cincrazy
06-06-2012, 06:57 AM
The offense isn't any different than it's been the past few years. It's not going to beat good pitching more often than not. Period. End of discussion. But I'd hardly think I'm losing sleep at night over the Pirates. The Cardinals, yes. Despite their recent troubles. The Pirates don't have enough offense to hang around until the end.

mth123
06-06-2012, 07:41 AM
The offense isn't any different than it's been the past few years. It's not going to beat good pitching more often than not. Period. End of discussion. But I'd hardly think I'm losing sleep at night over the Pirates. The Cardinals, yes. Despite their recent troubles. The Pirates don't have enough offense to hang around until the end.

A couple of the right role players and the offense will be fine. They've got the best hitter in the game to build around and Bruce and Phillips are good players. They need some one who can hit against RH pitching to take some PAs away from Stubbs, Frazier, Ludwick and/or Heisey when a RH is on the mound. Two or three platoon/bench guys, none need to be stars, and this team will be very dangerous IMO. They should be able to get what they need. It may cost one of those promising AA starting pitchers though.

I agree that the Pirates won't hang around. They've been getting by on pitching, but I think it won't last. Burnett and Bedard have a history of breaking down and most of the rest implode as the season wears on. June swoon is on its way. Hopefully it starts today and the Reds can win the series with a couple of wins.

nate
06-06-2012, 10:44 AM
Here's a quick table I made about the Reds' rank in offensive categories relative to the rest of baseball:


Team BB% K% ISO BABIP AVG OBP SLG wOBA
Reds 15 25 9 21 23 24 10 18

Basically, they're middling at taking a walk, strike out a lot and have a fair amount of power.

Kc61
06-06-2012, 10:57 AM
Nate, the Reds are worse than middling at taking a walk. The team has 167 walks, 22nd in MLB of 30 teams.

But 46 of those 167 walks, 27.5 percent, are walks to Joey Votto. One can question whether walks to Votto are a positive or a negative. I'd argue that, given the Reds' overall lineup, a walk to Votto is frequently a negative.

If you remove Votto's walks, the Reds would have 121 walks. That would be the fewest in MLB. Not a fair comparison, you'd have to remove the leading walk man from other teams as well, but there's no doubt that absent Votto the team would be very low on the walk scale.

Generally, the Reds offense is above average in the power/extra base hit department and below average in the OBP department. On the OBP side, the numbers become quite poor when you look at the players other than Votto.

Kc61
06-06-2012, 11:04 AM
A couple of the right role players and the offense will be fine. They've got the best hitter in the game to build around and Bruce and Phillips are good players. They need some one who can hit against RH pitching to take some PAs away from Stubbs, Frazier, Ludwick and/or Heisey when a RH is on the mound. Two or three platoon/bench guys, none need to be stars, and this team will be very dangerous IMO. They should be able to get what they need. It may cost one of those promising AA starting pitchers though.

.

I agree with this, I think mth has described the offensive situation quite well in his various posts.

If you look at the last four games, the Reds hit the two Astro lefty starters very well. But Jordan Lyles, the righty, had much more success and AJ Burnett is a very bad matchup for the Reds with their lack of lefty hitters.

I think mth has very correctly pointed to the redundancy in the Reds offense. Stubbs, Rolen (this year), Ludwick, Heisey, Cairo, Frazier, are all swing and miss righty batters most with good power, most who feast on lefties. Even Phillips, a higher caliber player, fits that category. One could even argue Cozart is similar too.

And I agree with mth that it should be relatively easy to fix because the players needed aren't powerhouses. They need solid OBP guys, even without top power, who should be obtainable.

Tommyjohn25
06-06-2012, 11:53 AM
Is this thread seriosuly going to re-surface every time they lose two in a row? It's not fun to lose, I think we can all agree there, but it's going to happen a lot when you play 162 games. Is it fun to watch when those losses happen? Of course not. It doesn't mean "they aren't fun to watch" though. I didn't hear anyone complaining about how "not fun" that 6 game winning streak was.

This thread should be called "Well, they lost tonight. That wasn't particularly fun to watch, was it?"

Big Klu
06-06-2012, 12:54 PM
Is this thread seriosuly going to re-surface every time they lose two in a row? It's not fun to lose, I think we can all agree there, but it's going to happen a lot when you play 162 games. Is it fun to watch when those losses happen? Of course not. It doesn't mean "they aren't fun to watch" though. I didn't hear anyone complaining about how "not fun" that 6 game winning streak was.

This thread should be called "Well, they lost tonight. That wasn't particularly fun to watch, was it?"

Two in a row? How about one in a row!

westofyou
06-06-2012, 12:58 PM
Is this thread seriosuly going to re-surface every time they lose two in a row? It's not fun to lose, I think we can all agree there, but it's going to happen a lot when you play 162 games. Is it fun to watch when those losses happen? Of course not. It doesn't mean "they aren't fun to watch" though. I didn't hear anyone complaining about how "not fun" that 6 game winning streak was.

This thread should be called "Well, they lost tonight. That wasn't particularly fun to watch, was it?"

Preach brother... This should be renamed the Honorary Veruca Salt thread

traderumor
06-06-2012, 01:27 PM
Nate, the Reds are worse than middling at taking a walk. The team has 167 walks, 22nd in MLB of 30 teams.

But 46 of those 167 walks, 27.5 percent, are walks to Joey Votto. One can question whether walks to Votto are a positive or a negative. I'd argue that, given the Reds' overall lineup, a walk to Votto is frequently a negative.

If you remove Votto's walks, the Reds would have 121 walks. That would be the fewest in MLB. Not a fair comparison, you'd have to remove the leading walk man from other teams as well, but there's no doubt that absent Votto the team would be very low on the walk scale.

Generally, the Reds offense is above average in the power/extra base hit department and below average in the OBP department. On the OBP side, the numbers become quite poor when you look at the players other than Votto.Nate is using BB% for the ranking, you are using the raw number of walks, so you're ranking is less accurate. As for "only Votto walks or it would be even worse," this is a team game, so his walks count in the goal of producing runs. While the Reds are clearly overall a OBP challenged team, I'm not sure what value removing one player's stats adds to evaluating "Reds offense."

nate
06-06-2012, 10:12 PM
Nate, the Reds are worse than middling at taking a walk. The team has 167 walks, 22nd in MLB of 30 teams.

My number is BB% not BB.

nate
06-06-2012, 10:14 PM
Nate is using BB% for the ranking, you are using the raw number of walks, so you're ranking is less accurate. As for "only Votto walks or it would be even worse," this is a team game, so his walks count in the goal of producing runs. While the Reds are clearly overall a OBP challenged team, I'm not sure what value removing one player's stats adds to evaluating "Reds offense."

Yes.

I'd say their OB deficiencies are more BA related than BB related.

(There's going out on a limb!) :cool:

Not that we're slaying them with BB; that time seems eons ago.

Kc61
06-07-2012, 01:16 AM
Yes.

I'd say their OB deficiencies are more BA related than BB related.

(There's going out on a limb!) :cool:

Not that we're slaying them with BB; that time seems eons ago.

1. Whether you are talking absolute numbers or percentages, Votto's 27.5 percent of the team's walks has a big impact on the numbers. I haven't done the math, but the Reds' walk percentage excluding Votto must be quite small.

2. Votto is a special player. Unlike most players, a walk to Votto is not necessarily a positive thing. It's easy to say this is a "team game" but the Reds don't have many run producers. Taking the bat out of Votto's hands is of dubious help to the Reds.

3. In fact, other teams frequently will not pitch to Votto as a strategy. The other team would RATHER walk Votto than pitch to him. They want to turn Votto into a table setter because there aren't many good hitters to support him on the ballclub.

IMO the Reds are absolutely walk deficient. Just run through the K/BB rates of most of the Reds' batters and you'll see what I mean. It's not just BA. It's walks too.

nate
06-07-2012, 01:39 AM
1. Whether you are talking absolute numbers or percentages, Votto's 27.5 percent of the team's walks has a big impact on the numbers. I haven't done the math, but the Reds' walk percentage excluding Votto must be quite small.

2. Votto is a special player. Unlike most players, a walk to Votto is not necessarily a positive thing. It's easy to say this is a "team game" but the Reds don't have many run producers. Taking the bat out of Votto's hands is of dubious help to the Reds.

3. In fact, other teams frequently will not pitch to Votto as a strategy. The other team would RATHER walk Votto than pitch to him. They want to turn Votto into a table setter because there aren't many good hitters to support him on the ballclub.

IMO the Reds are absolutely walk deficient. Just run through the K/BB rates of most of the Reds' batters and you'll see what I mean. It's not just BA. It's walks too.

The K/BB ratio has a numerator.

DGullett35
06-07-2012, 07:17 AM
After the Detroit series this weekend this thread could get a little more action. I wish Cueto could start one of those games. It reminds me of the Yankee series in a way. Bailey and Arroyo pitched good that series. Hopefully we can win 2 out of 3. Verlander has lost 3 straight starts. Hopefully this trend continues.

oregonred
06-27-2012, 01:10 AM
This team is flat out boring these days. Anything fun happen tonight? ;)

Vottomatic
06-28-2012, 12:07 PM
This team is flat out boring these days. Anything fun happen tonight? ;)

I guess you missed the A-roll-dis Chapman two rolls.

And I guess you missed the Nyjerk Morgan "assault" on a fan in RF foul ground.

Edskin
07-22-2012, 11:54 PM
Well, I'm here to say I stand corrected. It took me a long time to warm up to this team-- even at the AS break and in first place I was having a hard time "connecting" with this team and I can say for sure I enjoyed 1999 and 2010 more than I have 2012 thus far for whatever reasons, but one thing has changed for me that I didn't think would:

One reason I found them boring was because I didn't think there was upside. I thought they were an 80-83 win team in a lousy division that might found a way to win 88-90 games due to th schedule, etc... I didn't see them as much of a threat to anyone. In short, I sort of felt the end of the story was already written.

And I waited and waited literally months to reply again to this thread so that I didn't respond to a knee-jerk winning or losing streak.

But now, I think the Reds are good. Not great, but good. And I also see a little tiny sprinkle of magic as well--- the team has responded extremely well in the first week of Votto's absence.

But the bottom line story here is that the pitching is just fantastic--- better than I ever thought it could be. The pitching staff allows the offense to pick their spots and helps maks our obvious weaknesses. And yeah, Arolids is really, really fun to watch :)

I've come around on the 2012 Reds....

Let the 12 game losing streak commence :)

WVRedsFan
07-23-2012, 12:28 AM
You're right. Good, not great, but a decent lead off hitter would go a long way to making them great.

Edskin
07-23-2012, 12:34 AM
You're right. Good, not great, but a decent lead off hitter would go a long way to making them great.

For sure... Shocking we are this good with such horrendous 1-2 hitters in front of Votto and BP... Goes to show how good those two have been.

The pitching.... I think they can sustain this. I see no reason why they can't. This isn't a smoke and mirrors situation--- they are just that good and I find that exciting. Given an offense that can produce just a bit more and we may very well be the NL favorites.

WVRedsFan
07-23-2012, 12:54 AM
For sure... Shocking we are this good with such horrendous 1-2 hitters in front of Votto and BP... Goes to show how good those two have been.

The pitching.... I think they can sustain this. I see no reason why they can't. This isn't a smoke and mirrors situation--- they are just that good and I find that exciting. Given an offense that can produce just a bit more and we may very well be the NL favorites.

Absolutely. With two black holes at 1 and 2, it has been the part of the lineup you don't expect to do much getting the teams runs. I like both Stubbs and Cozart, but Drew has flaws and Cozart is just learning. They don't belong at the top of the lineup. Get a true lead off, move BP to second and watch this team fly. Keep Ludwick at cleanup and Frazier in the lineup when Scotty's tired and in left when Ryan needs a break. Trade Heisey and cut Cairo. Yeah, I'm crazy, but that's the way I see it.

cincyinco
07-23-2012, 05:25 AM
Absolutely. With two black holes at 1 and 2, it has been the part of the lineup you don't expect to do much getting the teams runs. I like both Stubbs and Cozart, but Drew has flaws and Cozart is just learning. They don't belong at the top of the lineup. Get a true lead off, move BP to second and watch this team fly. Keep Ludwick at cleanup and Frazier in the lineup when Scotty's tired and in left when Ryan needs a break. Trade Heisey and cut Cairo. Yeah, I'm crazy, but that's the way I see it.

BP in the 2 hole is as bad as the current 1-2. There would still be no one on base in front of Votto with as many double plays as Phillips hits into. I honestly like BP in the leadoff spot. He did well there last year, and it certainly mitigates his DatDudeDP tendencies. I wish we had another higher obp guy for the 2 spot. Someone with a little bit of power too. A Larkin type of hitter. I think Cozart might be that guy in time, but yeah.. Right now.. Not so much.

DGullett35
07-23-2012, 08:32 AM
BP has been quoted as saying he prefers the leadoff spot. Id like to see him moved back there also. With the way Ludwick is hitting he should be able to bat 4th no problem. Of course this will have to happen Votto comes back. BP is our best option in the 3 hole at the moment IMO.

Vottomatic
07-23-2012, 09:17 AM
For sure... Shocking we are this good with such horrendous 1-2 hitters in front of Votto and BP... Goes to show how good those two have been.

The pitching.... I think they can sustain this. I see no reason why they can't. This isn't a smoke and mirrors situation--- they are just that good and I find that exciting. Given an offense that can produce just a bit more and we may very well be the NL favorites.

That's how I see it. It's shocking that they're this good considering the holes in the lineup.

PuffyPig
07-24-2012, 11:06 AM
That's how I see it. It's shocking that they're this good considering the holes in the lineup.


There's one thing that remains a constant in baseball for 100+ years.

Good pitching wins.

And good pitching is helped enourmously by great defense.

Plus Plus
07-24-2012, 11:09 AM
That's how I see it. It's shocking that they're this good considering the holes in the lineup.

I would wager that a look at other teams' lineups would also reveal holes. My guess is that it certainly would, and that some Reds fans (my own father included) are, for some reason, hyper-critical of the team's shortcomings.

I wish I had a dollar for every time my dad bellyached and walked around the house complaining during last night's win.

westofyou
07-24-2012, 11:14 AM
I would wager that a look at other teams' lineups would also reveal holes. My guess is that it certainly would, and that some Reds fans (my own father included) are, for some reason, hyper-critical of the team's shortcomings.

I wish I had a dollar for every time my dad bellyached and walked around the house complaining during last night's win.

Every team has a weakness, a flaw, a three tool player with a significant amount of ABs.

Almost EVERY team in the games history. (1976 was a near perfect as you could get and still the pitching was...)

Once one learns that the game gets funner and easier to enjoy, and special players become even easier to appreciate

Captain Hook
07-24-2012, 11:58 AM
BP in the 2 hole is as bad as the current 1-2. There would still be no one on base in front of Votto with as many double plays as Phillips hits into. I honestly like BP in the leadoff spot. He did well there last year, and it certainly mitigates his DatDudeDP tendencies. I wish we had another higher obp guy for the 2 spot. Someone with a little bit of power too. A Larkin type of hitter. I think Cozart might be that guy in time, but yeah.. Right now.. Not so much.

When Phillips bats behind Joey there's someone on first nearly half the time.If he were to bat second there would never be anyone on first thus no more double plays.Problem solved!

I really like Phillips leading off though.Stubbs hits second.Stubbs has proven to be one of the more difficult guys to double up so I'd be sacrificing all day.Either way you have Joey coming to the plate with either Phillips or Stubbs on base fairly often.

CesarGeronimo
07-24-2012, 12:09 PM
I wish we had another higher obp guy for the 2 spot. Someone with a little bit of power too.

Todd Frazier -- .347 OBP with some power.

Chip R
07-24-2012, 12:45 PM
I tell you, the last 2 innings of that game last night wasn't particularly fun to watch.

Kc61
07-24-2012, 12:54 PM
I would wager that a look at other teams' lineups would also reveal holes. My guess is that it certainly would, and that some Reds fans (my own father included) are, for some reason, hyper-critical of the team's shortcomings.

I wish I had a dollar for every time my dad bellyached and walked around the house complaining during last night's win.

I'm here to support your dad. He's not hyper-critical, but like me he probably just is impatient and is interested in success now.

Like me, he is probably a long-time Reds rooter who got used to success in prior decades and now sees another chance for the team to go deep in the playoffs. I know I'm not a future-oriented fan anymore. I kind of want perfection now as well, even though it is unrealistic.

That's why I hope they trade for a left handed OBP bat, or even two. I see that the team could possibly succeed as is, but I want no stone unturned to fix whatever flaws they have.

Every team may have holes, but when you root for one long enough, it's harder to tolerate them. Go Reds.

Plus Plus
07-24-2012, 01:04 PM
I'm here to support your dad. He's not hyper-critical, but like me he probably just is impatient and is interested in success now.

Like me, he is probably a long-time Reds rooter who got used to success in prior decades and now sees another chance for the team to go deep in the playoffs. I know I'm not a future-oriented fan anymore. I kind of want perfection now as well, even though it is unrealistic.

That's why I hope they trade for a left handed OBP bat, or even two. I see that the team could possibly succeed as is, but I want no stone unturned to fix whatever flaws they have.

Every team may have holes, but when you root for one long enough, it's harder to tolerate them. Go Reds.

I can understand being impatient and wanting to win every game, but isn't 12-2 in the last 14 games about as close to perfection as baseball gets?

Vottomatic
07-24-2012, 01:15 PM
I should rephrase my post above to say that with pitching this good, it makes you wonder how great this team could be if they filled the holes in the batting order.

Listening to posters say pitching and defense wins games just seems comical because they're stating the obvious.

Plus Plus
07-24-2012, 01:24 PM
Listening to posters say pitching and defense wins games just seems comical because they're stating the obvious.

If only baseball was that simple...

westofyou
07-24-2012, 01:29 PM
If only baseball was that simple...

Evidently it is... as shown by the Marlins in the off season.

Kc61
07-24-2012, 01:29 PM
I can understand being impatient and wanting to win every game, but isn't 12-2 in the last 14 games about as close to perfection as baseball gets?

Probably the theory would be that losses to the Astros would be intolerable.

pedro
07-24-2012, 01:29 PM
I should rephrase my post above to say that with pitching this good, it makes you wonder how great this team could be if they filled the holes in the batting order.

Listening to posters say pitching and defense wins games just seems comical because they're stating the obvious.

There's a point at which I feel like some fans come off a bit like Veruca Salt because they want it all and they want it now and I find it a bit sad as the Reds are having a pretty good season and they just can't seem to find a way to enjoy it for what it is and see where the ride takes them.

Puffy
07-24-2012, 01:32 PM
There's a point at which I feel like some fans come off a bit like Veruca Salt because they want it all and they want it now and I find it a bit sad as the Reds are having a pretty good season and they just can't seem to find a way to enjoy it for what it is and see where the ride takes them.

Word.

westofyou
07-24-2012, 01:35 PM
There's a point at which I feel like some fans come off a bit like Veruca Salt because they want it all and they want it now and I find it a bit sad as the Reds are having a pretty good season and they just can't seem to find a way to enjoy it for what it is and see where the ride takes them.

Can't fight the seether... oh not THAT Veruca Salt

Plus Plus
07-24-2012, 01:35 PM
Probably the theory would be that losses to the Astros would be intolerable.


No matter how good you are, you're going to lose one-third of your games. No matter how bad you are you're going to win one-third of your games. It's the other third that makes the difference.

dougdirt
07-24-2012, 01:36 PM
Can't fight the seether... oh not THAT Veruca Salt

No, but I miss that one.

powersackers
07-24-2012, 01:44 PM
If we go .500 the rest of the way we are at 88 wins. At if we maintain at .580ish we will hit 94 or 95 wins. Reality is probably in the middle. Pitching needs to hold up and lineup holes could be addressed. But October baseball looks more likely every day. That is the goal and that makes the next 66 games particularly fun to watch.

PuffyPig
07-24-2012, 01:54 PM
I should rephrase my post above to say that with pitching this good, it makes you wonder how great this team could be if they filled the holes in the batting order.

Listening to posters say pitching and defense wins games just seems comical because they're stating the obvious.


I'm guessing that we didn't think you thought it was obvious when you post things like it is "shocking they are this good considering the holes in the lineup".

When your pitching and defense is among the best in baseball, it's to be expected you will be a good team even if your offense is average.

Jay Bruce
07-24-2012, 02:07 PM
Can't fight the seether... oh not THAT Veruca Salt

This song just came onto the radio right now while reading this. How random is that?

RedlegJake
07-24-2012, 03:12 PM
I must be in the minority. I'm enjoying this season much more than the 2010 one. Other than the unexpected nature of 2010 I think this year's team is better despite the OBP problems. If the Reds do get a hitter to help there I think they'll be much much better than the 2010 edition.

Captain Hook
07-24-2012, 03:28 PM
I must be in the minority. I'm enjoying this season much more than the 2010 one. Other than the unexpected nature of 2010 I think this year's team is better despite the OBP problems. If the Reds do get a hitter to help there I think they'll be much much better than the 2010 edition.

I agree.The main differences that makes this years team better so far is Ludwick>Gomes and a more experienced rotation.

edabbs44
07-24-2012, 10:10 PM
I agree.The main differences that makes this years team better so far is Ludwick>Gomes and a more experienced rotation.

To this point in 2010, Gomes had a .791 OPS with 13 HR and 64 RBI. Ludwick is at .818 with 15 HR and 43 RBI.

Pitching, both starting and relieving, is the difference.

Big Klu
07-24-2012, 10:35 PM
To this point in 2010, Gomes had a .791 OPS with 13 HR and 64 RBI. Ludwick is at .818 with 15 HR and 43 RBI.

Pitching, both starting and relieving, is the difference.

Ludwick is also an improvement defensively over Gomes. But pitching is the difference.

Edskin
07-25-2012, 01:25 AM
I want an Oompa Loompa NOW Daddy.....

:)

Tonight was a great display in team chemistry--at least my definition. Stubbs is having a dreadful year, but on a night when no one else hits, he goes off and delivers a huge game winning HR. To me chemistry is all about the team finding a balance of timing...picking each other up....the Votto injury might also prove to be a blessing in disguise as it sort of forces everyone to concentrate just a tad harder and should boost confidence across the board that the team is playing so well without him. I always thought this team was fine and that they'd be in a race come September, but now I'm starting to see signs that something a bit more special is possible.

Heck, another week like this and the Reds would likely have the best record in MLB.

Captain Hook
07-25-2012, 04:34 AM
To this point in 2010, Gomes had a .791 OPS with 13 HR and 64 RBI. Ludwick is at .818 with 15 HR and 43 RBI.

Pitching, both starting and relieving, is the difference.

Gomes was terrible in 2010 except for the month of May and as mentioned his defense was equally bad.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/split.cgi?id=gomesjo01&year=2010&t=b


Ludwick had a terrible month and a half but since May 16th(his OPS was a season low .599) he's been our best outfielder.I believe it's no coincidence that that was about the time the Reds started winning much more often.

I do agree that better pitching has been the bigger factor in this years team seeming improved over the 2010 team but Ludwick has been a noticeable improvement over Gomes.

dougdirt
07-25-2012, 08:04 AM
I don't know about the rest of you guys..... but I am having fun watching this team right now.

edabbs44
07-25-2012, 08:07 AM
Gomes was terrible in 2010 except for the month of May and as mentioned his defense was equally bad.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/split.cgi?id=gomesjo01&year=2010&t=b


Ludwick had a terrible month and a half but since May 16th(his OPS was a season low .599) he's been our best outfielder.I believe it's no coincidence that that was about the time the Reds started winning much more often.

I do agree that better pitching has been the bigger factor in this years team seeming improved over the 2010 team but Ludwick has been a noticeable improvement over Gomes.

Gomes also had a very solid first 2-3 weeks of June so his effectiveness stretched beyond May, contrary to urban legend. The difference is in the pitching.

WildcatFan
07-25-2012, 11:02 AM
I don't know about the rest of you guys..... but I am having fun watching this team right now.

I don't know, how much fun would your boss have if you screwed up twice every 15 times?

redsmetz
07-25-2012, 12:35 PM
I don't know, how much fun would your boss have if you screwed up twice every 15 times?

Since baseball success is sometimes judged as good for failing 10 times out of 15, you're out of this world failing only 2 out of 15.

PuffyPig
07-25-2012, 01:30 PM
When the Reds swept the cards all of us Reds' fans were on a season high.

The next night we lost to Arizona badly and got he news about the Voto surgery, hitting a sudden low.

Since that game we've taked 8/9 and given ourselves some breathing room over the Pirates and especially the Cards.

I doubt anyone here expected any sort of rebound like 8 of 9 after that first game against Arizona.

VR
07-25-2012, 01:36 PM
Gomes also had 100+ more plate appearances than RL to this point.

I love the fact that I don't hold my breath anymore when the ball is hit anywhere to this Reds defense.

Would love to see a stat sometime on how many runs they have prevented with spectacular plays to get outs or prevent extra bases. I guarantee the opponents get frustrated in a big way by the defense....especially when you add in a pitching staff that does very well also.

Fun to watch, indeed.

WildcatFan
07-25-2012, 02:16 PM
I love the fact that I don't hold my breath anymore when the ball is hit anywhere to this Reds defense.

Would love to see a stat sometime on how many runs they have prevented with spectacular plays to get outs or prevent extra bases. I guarantee the opponents get frustrated in a big way by the defense....especially when you add in a pitching staff that does very well also.

Fun to watch, indeed.

I've got to be honest, I love seeing web gems and stuff like that, but I'd never experienced genuine fun watching defense on a day-to-day basis until this team. I actually look forward to balls in play to see what kind of run Stubbs will make on it, what new way Phillips will create to get the ball to second base, or how far away Rolen will make his barehanded snag and throw to get the runner. It's really bizarre, but I'm loving it. I look forward to the defensive highlights after the game WAY more than the offensive ones.

Screwball
07-25-2012, 02:36 PM
I wasn't sure where to put this, as it doesn't really deserve its own thread, so I'll just post it in here.

Found this nugget on MLB.com:



The Reds defeated the Astros 4-2 for their sixth consecutive win.

This season, Cincinnati has four winning streaks of six games. No other team has more than two, with the Braves, Dodgers, Rangers and Rays each having a pair.

dougdirt
07-25-2012, 02:41 PM
I wasn't sure where to put this, as it doesn't really deserve its own thread, so I'll just post it in here.

Found this nugget on MLB.com:

It is funny. Despite this incredibly run we have been on lately, I was talking to my dad last night and we both knew the Pirates had lost earlier and found ourselves saying how selfish we were for wanting a win so much despite being so good lately. It is almost like we expect a win, as if this were football and 1 loss is a rather big deal.

mattfeet
07-26-2012, 12:31 AM
14 of 16, 7 in a row, 2.5 game lead in division. 2 9th inning come-from-behind victories in a row. This. Is. Awesome.

-Matt

dougdirt
07-26-2012, 12:33 AM
Tonight was very fun. Then very frustrating. Then very fun. Then kind of frustrating. Then Very fun.

DGullett35
07-26-2012, 12:37 AM
If 18 games over .500 isnt fun then I dont know what is. Im gonna go out on a limb and say the Central division is one of the toughest divisions in baseball. 3 very good teams pretty close together. Sure we have the Stro's and Cubs but the Cubs have been playing good lately

marcshoe
07-26-2012, 12:39 AM
Welsh just said "this is a fun team to watch." He reads Redszone.

vaticanplum
07-26-2012, 01:04 AM
This team!!!!!

Do not Stockholm Syndrome me now, Reds. DO. NOT. DO IT.

Tom Servo
07-26-2012, 01:34 AM
What a silly thread.

Vottomatic
08-05-2012, 01:02 PM
I'm having fun now.

They're winning without Votto and BP, their two best players. Others have come alive, Rolen, Ludwick, Frazier........even Stubbs and Cozart are starting to have a resurgence.

The pitching is phenomenal.

This is fun.

Dom Heffner
08-06-2012, 05:05 PM
Ludwick was the right move, and I said he wasn't. I was heck bent on Beltran, but for the money and production, they didn't do too bad.

Raisor
08-06-2012, 07:59 PM
Edskin,

Having fun yet?

Edskin
08-07-2012, 12:32 AM
Edskin,

Having fun yet?

Sure...I thought all along the Reds would contend for the Central, but I thought it would be by default....never saw this coming...did not think the team was capable of getting hot like that.

This season still does not compare to the summer of 1999 to me...not even close really, but this team is probably getting ready to pass the 2010 team in terms of how much I enjoy watching them.

Captain Hook
08-07-2012, 01:11 AM
Ludwick was the right move, and I said he wasn't. I was heck bent on Beltran, but for the money and production, they didn't do too bad.

I'm as happy as one could be with how things turned out and I was right there with you.I can't really give the Reds credit for picking the right one though.I'm sure if Walt had the money available to him for Beltran, Ludwick would be elsewhere.

WVRedsFan
08-07-2012, 02:15 AM
I trust Walt Jocketty. Silly, I know,but he has a track record. He has always been able to get the acquisition that turns the tide. Oh yes, he has had some stinkers, but he has good baseball sense and the Ludwidk acquisition was brilliant. The same could be said for Broxton and even a lot of others.