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View Full Version : Multiple Brain Cramps - One Play



TOBTTReds
05-02-2012, 10:17 AM
Did you guys catch the play in the Tigers/Royals game last night? Jeff Francoeur hits a ball off the top of the wall, Austin Jackson then catches it off the bounce. Confusion ensues...

Tim McClellan, who I've deemed the second worst ump I've ever seen (CB Buckner takes the cake), calls Francoeur out. What? In what play can the ball hit the wall first and still be an out.

Francoeur proceeds to stop running even though he would have had an easy triple had he been running.

Jackson doesn't react at all after the catch, because he doesn't know what the call is, so he's holding a live ball in his hands 400 feet away from home, with no intent to throw it to the infield.

Eventually the play is called back as a double. And Jim Leyland comes out to argue incesently as if it should have been an out!

The brain cramps on this play were fun to watch, mostly because you don't see the play often and no one knew what to do. But if you relate to a much more frequent play, you'll know this isn't a hard judgement: Line drive off green monster at Fenway. The LF catches it off the wall before a bounce...pretty sure no one argues that's an out.

Enjoy if you haven't seen it yet.
http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/gameday/index.jsp?gid=2012_05_01_kcamlb_detmlb_1&mode=box#gid=2012_05_01_kcamlb_detmlb_1&mode=video

cumberlandreds
05-02-2012, 10:25 AM
Actually Jackson saved a HR by catching it off the bounce. It was a little weird to see a play like that.

dunner13
05-02-2012, 10:42 AM
I could be wrong but isnt anything that hits or hits above the yellow line a homerun? Wouldn't this be comparable to a player hitting a ball into the stands that then bounces back onto the playing field. If the player caught the ball after that it wouldn't be an out, which the ump tried to call at first. Am I wrong here?

TOBTTReds
05-02-2012, 10:45 AM
I could be wrong but isnt anything that hits or hits above the yellow line a homerun? Wouldn't this be comparable to a player hitting a ball into the stands that then bounces back onto the playing field. If the player caught the ball after that it wouldn't be an out, which the ump tried to call at first. Am I wrong here?

The ball has to touch something past the yellow line. In this scenario, it hits the yellow line, but nothing past that. The yellow line thing is sort of a myth though, considering not all HR walls have a yellow line.

jojo
05-02-2012, 10:46 AM
What? It what play can the ball hit the wall first and still be an out.



You've apprarently never played wallyball!

MikeThierry
05-02-2012, 11:20 AM
Tim McClellan, who I've deemed the second worst ump I've ever seen (CB Buckner takes the cake), calls Francoeur out. What? In what play can the ball hit the wall first and still be an out.

So true about CB Buckner. He was umping last night's Cardinals/Pirates game. His strikezone was his usual floating variety. He had to leave in the 7th because of and injury and there were only 2 Umps on the field. I thought to myself "Thank god! This is addition by subtraction".

traderumor
05-02-2012, 11:46 AM
Did you guys catch the play in the Tigers/Royals game last night? Jeff Francoeur hits a ball off the top of the wall, Austin Jackson then catches it off the bounce. Confusion ensues...

Tim McClellan, who I've deemed the second worst ump I've ever seen (CB Buckner takes the cake), calls Francoeur out. What? In what play can the ball hit the wall first and still be an out.

Francoeur proceeds to stop running even though he would have had an easy triple had he been running.

Jackson doesn't react at all after the catch, because he doesn't know what the call is, so he's holding a live ball in his hands 400 feet away from home, with no intent to throw it to the infield.

Eventually the play is called back as a double. And Jim Leyland comes out to argue incesently as if it should have been an out!

The brain cramps on this play were fun to watch, mostly because you don't see the play often and no one knew what to do. But if you relate to a much more frequent play, you'll know this isn't a hard judgement: Line drive off green monster at Fenway. The LF catches it off the wall before a bounce...pretty sure no one argues that's an out.

Enjoy if you haven't seen it yet.
http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/gameday/index.jsp?gid=2012_05_01_kcamlb_detmlb_1&mode=box#gid=2012_05_01_kcamlb_detmlb_1&mode=videoIts funny, because I think McClellan is horrible also, yet his reputation is "one of the best." This was immediately clear that it was "playing the ball of the wall" and a live ball. Francouer might have even scored if he kept on running. Since he had passed second, though he should have been awarded 3b as a compromise for the umps screw up.

Blimpie
05-02-2012, 11:52 AM
Great instincts by Jackson to save the home run.

HotCorner
05-02-2012, 02:04 PM
So would this be the first ever home run saving catch not ruled an out?

cumberlandreds
05-02-2012, 02:06 PM
So would this be the first ever home run saving catch not ruled an out?

Good question. That is a first for me. I can't recall ever seeing a HR taken away that was not an out.

camisadelgolf
05-02-2012, 02:09 PM
So would this be the first ever home run saving catch not ruled an out?
I know it's not what you're talking about, but the ivy wall in Wrigley has caught a couple balls that otherwise wouldn't have been found and resulted in inside-the-park homers.

TOBTTReds
05-02-2012, 03:04 PM
So would this be the first ever home run saving catch not ruled an out?

Possibly, but I've seen a couple plays where an OF'er robs a guy of a HR, but the ball comes out of the glove, but back in play. So they saved a HR, but still allowed the hit.

Also, there was a hit a few years back, I think at Yankee stadium where the ball literally was rolling on top of the wall after the OF'er saved a HR. I can't remember which way it fell though.

Nasty_Boy
05-02-2012, 03:11 PM
Its funny, because I think McClellan is horrible also, yet his reputation is "one of the best." This was immediately clear that it was "playing the ball of the wall" and a live ball. Francouer might have even scored if he kept on running. Since he had passed second, though he should have been awarded 3b as a compromise for the umps screw up.

Agreed! McClellan's rep has always baffled me because I've never thought of him as a good ump. He's also very annoying to watch (and I'm sure play the field) with his delayed motion of the strike call. I know he's making a verbal call, but I'm sure that cause some confusion while in the field in loud environments.

TOBTTReds
05-02-2012, 03:12 PM
Its funny, because I think McClellan is horrible also, yet his reputation is "one of the best." This was immediately clear that it was "playing the ball of the wall" and a live ball. Francouer might have even scored if he kept on running. Since he had passed second, though he should have been awarded 3b as a compromise for the umps screw up.

I've posted on him before. This video sums him up in my opinion.

http://mlb.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=7079583

CySeymour
05-02-2012, 03:13 PM
Wow! What a terrible call!

George Anderson
05-02-2012, 03:33 PM
Wow! What a terrible call!

Lets be honest now. When you first saw the play did you know it was a blown call? I have umpired for 15 years and it took me quite a while to think that one out.

CySeymour
05-02-2012, 03:37 PM
Lets be honest now. When you first saw the play did you know it was a blown call? I have umpired for 15 years and it took me quite a while to think that one out.

No, to me it was obvious it hit the top of the wall and bounced into the air.

The ump is a pro and should be expected to make calls like that.

George Anderson
05-02-2012, 03:43 PM
No, to me it was obvious it hit the top of the wall and bounced into the air.

The ump is a pro and should be expected to make calls like that.

The funny thing is it was McClellands 4,000 game. They acknowledged him at pregame and he took a pic with both managers. McClelland won't forget this game anytime soon.

I have always thought McClelland is a good ball and strikes umpire but on the bases he seems to be lacking.

AtomicDumpling
05-02-2012, 05:00 PM
Lets be honest now. When you first saw the play did you know it was a blown call? I have umpired for 15 years and it took me quite a while to think that one out.

I can understand how an umpire could have messed up and called it a home run (possibly thinking it went over the wall and bounced back onto the field), but there is no way a good umpire could even for a second believe that ball was caught on the fly for an out.

Dan
05-02-2012, 05:02 PM
So what do you all think of umpiring in general?

Does everyone remember the umpire strike, where the umpires resigned en masse to force the hand of MLB? Some of them came back and some didn't? It seems to me the quality of major league umpiring has gone down since then. Not making a judgement on whether the umpires back then were right or wrong, just that it does seem like a lot of quality umps were lost in that event.

AtomicDumpling
05-02-2012, 05:12 PM
So what do you all think of umpiring in general?

Does everyone remember the umpire strike, where the umpires resigned en masse to force the hand of MLB? Some of them came back and some didn't? It seems to me the quality of major league umpiring has gone down since then. Not making a judgement on whether the umpires back then were right or wrong, just that it does seem like a lot of quality umps were lost in that event.

I agree that umpiring is not good enough. I am not sure but I think all (or most) of those umpires that were fired after the strike eventually ended up getting their jobs back in the end. I think umpires are subjected to more scrutiny and job reviews by the league than they were back in the day. They have much more supervision and consequences for poor work than they used to, which is good but still more needs to be done. I see less blatant antagonism from the umpires toward the players and managers than there used to be, although there are still some problems with a few umpires.

Umpires have to be expected to make some mistakes. They are human after all. What can be improved is the variation in strike zones from umpire to umpire. The strike zone should be exactly the same no matter which umpire is behind the plate. Too many gullible umpires get manipulated by the catcher into calling extra strikes as well.

If you notice an umpire for any reason he is probably not a good umpire. It is a thankless job but they make very good money.

traderumor
05-02-2012, 05:19 PM
Lets be honest now. When you first saw the play did you know it was a blown call? I have umpired for 15 years and it took me quite a while to think that one out.There are defensible screwy plays that stump an ump and you can certainly understand it. This one is simply a ball bouncing off the fence. A good ump, when in doubt, makes no call rather than a knee jerk call that stops play. Let the play develop, then sort it out later. Give the brain a chance to process what the eyes just saw and didn't immediately recognize due to being a rare play. McClellan got himself in trouble here by stopping play with a signal.

TOBTTReds
05-02-2012, 06:32 PM
Ironically, another awful call today, this time by Tim Welke. Hairston was called out on this play. The ball is about to hit Helton's glove when that pic was snapped. :eek:

RedsManRick
05-02-2012, 09:23 PM
The human element makes another game better.

George Anderson
05-02-2012, 09:59 PM
So what do you all think of umpiring in general?

Does everyone remember the umpire strike, where the umpires resigned en masse to force the hand of MLB? Some of them came back and some didn't? It seems to me the quality of major league umpiring has gone down since then. Not making a judgement on whether the umpires back then were right or wrong, just that it does seem like a lot of quality umps were lost in that event.

Umpiring now is better than it has ever been. The difference is technology has resulted in tv cameras that get Hi Def close up views of plays we never saw up to about 10 years ago.

Blimpie
05-03-2012, 12:47 PM
Lets be honest now. When you first saw the play did you know it was a blown call? I have umpired for 15 years and it took me quite a while to think that one out.Personally, I think it is the yellow line atop the ballpark fence that adds to the confusion.

Most people immediately gravitate towards the foul vs. fair mindset when a ball strikes a line. So, it is feasible that some might have considered it a homerun because the ball struck the line.

Essentially, the yellow line is meaningless. If it clears the fence, then it is a homerun.

Period.

Yachtzee
05-05-2012, 02:01 AM
So what do you all think of umpiring in general?

Does everyone remember the umpire strike, where the umpires resigned en masse to force the hand of MLB? Some of them came back and some didn't? It seems to me the quality of major league umpiring has gone down since then. Not making a judgement on whether the umpires back then were right or wrong, just that it does seem like a lot of quality umps were lost in that event.

I can't recall all the names of the umpires whose resignations were accepted, but I do remember the list containing a number of umps known for bad calls, Eric Gregg being the one name I can remember off the top of my head. He was terrible and had a strike zone like the State of Tennessee, very wide east to west, narrow north-south.

In the end, I think over half had been hired back, some others chose retirement. If anything, I'd say umpiring has gotten better, at least as far as strike zone consistency goes. Before 1999, umpires had wildly varying strike zones that bore little relation to what the strike zone should be according to the rule book.

TOBTTReds
05-05-2012, 12:53 PM
I can't recall all the names of the umpires whose resignations were accepted, but I do remember the list containing a number of umps known for bad calls, Eric Gregg being the one name I can remember off the top of my head. He was terrible and had a strike zone like the State of Tennessee, very wide east to west, narrow north-south.


He was the ump for that Livan Hernandez game. This strike ended it I believe.

dougdirt
05-05-2012, 01:04 PM
He was the ump for that Livan Hernandez game. This strike ended it I believe.

Back then the strikezone was defined as "as wide as a baseball bat laying across home plate", right?