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HotCorner
05-02-2012, 02:18 PM
http://www.tmz.com/2012/05/02/junior-seau-dead/



NFL legend Junior Seau was found dead in his home in Oceanside, CA ... and cops are investigating a shooting ... multiple law enforcement sources tell TMZ.

Cops are currently at Seau's home just outside San Diego. Seau was 43-years-old ... and leaves behind 3 kids and an ex-wife.

BuckeyeRed27
05-02-2012, 02:28 PM
Speculation is a suicide. Shame.

Sea Ray
05-02-2012, 02:40 PM
Wow.

Stray
05-02-2012, 02:40 PM
That's terrible news. Hate to speculate, but years of head trauma can do terrible things. That's why I'm glad Goodell is trying to make the game safer.

Sent from my HTC Rezound using Tapatalk

BuckeyeRed27
05-02-2012, 02:40 PM
I don't want to get ahead of anything, but if this is a suicide I wonder what the debate is going to look like with CTE and the long term outlook for football. This is very high profile.

Stray
05-02-2012, 02:49 PM
I don't want to get ahead of anything, but if this is a suicide I wonder what the debate is going to look like with CTE and the long term outlook for football. This is very high profile.

I'm curious too. If reports are accurate a gun shot wound to the chest would lead me to believe he wanted his brain left to study.

Sent from my HTC Rezound using Tapatalk

BuckeyeRed27
05-02-2012, 03:06 PM
I wonder why ESPN hasn't reported on this yet? Its 12:03 right now and TMZ and Yahoo have had this for over an hour and yet ESPN doesn't even have an "Unconfirmed Report" on their site.

Really sad. He has 3 kids and I guess he texted them all yesterday that he loved them. Was found by his housekeeper this morning.

cincrazy
05-02-2012, 03:21 PM
I wonder why ESPN hasn't reported on this yet? Its 12:03 right now and TMZ and Yahoo have had this for over an hour and yet ESPN doesn't even have an "Unconfirmed Report" on their site.

Really sad. He has 3 kids and I guess he texted them all yesterday that he loved them. Was found by his housekeeper this morning.

I think they're just being cautious. After the Joe Paterno false news, I think that's a smart move.

RedsBaron
05-02-2012, 03:24 PM
I hate to read of this. Such a shame. :(

Rojo
05-02-2012, 03:38 PM
I don't want to get ahead of anything, but if this is a suicide I wonder what the debate is going to look like with CTE and the long term outlook for football. This is very high profile.

I like football but I think the game needs fundamental changes -- not just more padding and game-delaying rules.

Reds Fanatic
05-02-2012, 03:39 PM
I just read that now 8 players from the 1994 Chargers Super Bowl team have died before the age of 45

BuckeyeRed27
05-02-2012, 03:48 PM
I just read that now 8 players from the 1994 Chargers Super Bowl team have died before the age of 45

http://deadspin.com/5867720/death-is-stalking-the-1994-chargers

That's an article from December on the other 7. Some sad stuff in there.

Redsfaithful
05-02-2012, 04:15 PM
I like football but I think the game needs fundamental changes -- not just more padding and game-delaying rules.

Has to fundamentally change at some point in many ways. No contact practices, no kickoffs, no punting. If that won't be enough then I'm not sure what else you can do.

Redsfaithful
05-02-2012, 04:16 PM
I think back to the Bengals on Hard Knocks, the episode where they did the Oklahoma drill. At the time I thought it was awesome, now all I can think is how it was a bunch of completely unnecessary blows to the head.

reds1869
05-02-2012, 04:17 PM
Such a sad end to a wonderful life. Football needs to take even more action to protect the players--especially the youngest ones.

Wonderful Monds
05-02-2012, 04:43 PM
I like football but I think the game needs fundamental changes -- not just more padding and game-delaying rules.

What can you really do though? It's just kind of the nature of the game.


Not that I don't see a future where it's possible that the lawmakers step in and say enough is enough.

Todd Gack
05-02-2012, 04:49 PM
I like football but I think the game needs fundamental changes -- not just more padding and game-delaying rules.

Giving them flags would be my first choice.

_Sir_Charles_
05-02-2012, 07:23 PM
RIP Junior. Way too young. WAAAAAAY too young. *sigh*

redsfanmia
05-02-2012, 08:14 PM
Is it bad that this doesn't shock me?

Joseph
05-02-2012, 09:07 PM
Whats the chance the girlfriend did it?

HotCorner
05-02-2012, 11:00 PM
Whats the chance the girlfriend did it?

Well since it's being treated by the police as a suicide I would say slim.

Todd Gack
05-03-2012, 09:30 AM
I feel awful for his family. But who cares about Seau? ESPN is going bananas today on their network showing their affection for a loser and quitter that he has now become.

Sea Ray
05-03-2012, 09:52 AM
I feel awful for his family. But who cares about Seau? ESPN is going bananas today on their network showing their affection for a loser and quitter that he has now become.

ESPN is covering what a great player he was and how he was an even greater human being. Boring.

It's not news that he was a great player. We all know that. IF he did shoot himself, he's not a great human being. Great human beings don't do this to his kids and family. Anyone see what this did to his mother? You don't do that to your loved ones.

The story here is what actually happened and if it was indeed suicide, what was going on in his life? I heard Mort briefly allude to failed businesses but I heard others say that everything he did turned to gold so I don't know

cincrazy
05-03-2012, 09:57 AM
With all due respect, I don't think it's fair to judge the character of the man. One of my best friends tried to kill herself two years ago, and she's been battling demons for quite a while. And I think it's grossly unfair to deem her less of a human being than someone else. I understand there are different perspectives on this, but IMO the man was ill. I don't think he was in a clear enough mind to deem whether he was acting selfishly or not. And football, and the violence of the sport, may have played a big part in the changing of his brain.

RedsBaron
05-03-2012, 10:07 AM
With all due respect, I don't think it's fair to judge the character of the man. One of my best friends tried to kill herself two years ago, and she's been battling demons for quite a while. And I think it's grossly unfair to deem her less of a human being than someone else. I understand there are different perspectives on this, but IMO the man was ill. I don't think he was in a clear enough mind to deem whether he was acting selfishly or not. And football, and the violence of the sport, may have played a big part in the changing of his brain.

I agree. Years ago my neighbor, a Viet Nam War vet, committed suicide in large part because of the emotional trauma he suffered from as a result of his military service. He was ill and he made a bad decision, one that extremely hurt his family, but I never thought less of him as a human being.

top6
05-03-2012, 10:21 AM
ESPN is covering what a great player he was and how he was an even greater human being. Boring.

It's not news that he was a great player. We all know that. IF he did shoot himself, he's not a great human being. Great human beings don't do this to his kids and family. Anyone see what this did to his mother? You don't do that to your loved ones.

The story here is what actually happened and if it was indeed suicide, what was going on in his life? I heard Mort briefly allude to failed businesses but I heard others say that everything he did turned to gold so I don't know

Great human beings make mistakes; even tragic ones. Great human beings can also get sick. Did he make a mistake, or was he mentally ill? In either event it doesn't mean he wasn't a great human being.

Anyway, here is a cool story about him:

http://deadspin.com/5907297/the-night-junior-seau-picked-up-a-marine-captains-tab-and-serenaded-bar-patrons-with-a-ukulele

EDIT: I took something out that was probably inappropriate. So I'll just say that I found SeaRay's post really offensive and leave it at that.

Sea Ray
05-03-2012, 10:45 AM
EDIT: I took something out that was probably inappropriate. So I'll just say that I found SeaRay's post really offensive and leave it at that.

No question, I knew my opinion would not be politically correct in these parts. Your response doesn't surprise me at all. Not everyone is as hard to offend as I am...

Sea Ray
05-03-2012, 10:49 AM
I agree. Years ago my neighbor, a Viet Nam War vet, committed suicide in large part because of the emotional trauma he suffered from as a result of his military service. He was ill and he made a bad decision, one that extremely hurt his family, but I never thought less of him as a human being.

I do think there was something going on in his mind and that's the story I'm most interested in. Could be post concussion; could be something else. I'd like to know more about the demons he battled.

As I type this right now, I'm thinking about how good a football player he was; not about him as a great human being.

top6
05-03-2012, 11:09 AM
No question, I knew my opinion would not be politically correct in these parts. Your response doesn't surprise me at all. Not everyone is as hard to offend as I am...

You are so brave.

Also, I thought your post was offensive mostly because it demonstrated a lot of ignorance. I wasn't personally offended.

Slyder
05-03-2012, 11:11 AM
My question is could this be another case of a professional athlete that couldn't adjust to not being a professional athlete?

Todd Gack
05-03-2012, 11:14 AM
You are so brave.

Also, I thought your post was offensive mostly because it demonstrated a lot of ignorance. I wasn't personally offended.

At worst, Seau is a pathetic figure of a human being.

At best, he's incredibly selfish.

Patrick Bateman
05-03-2012, 11:26 AM
At worst, Seau is a pathetic figure of a human being.

At best, he's incredibly selfish.

At best actually, he was a great guy, that had a deteriorating brain that made it impossible for him to be balanced and make thoughtful, well articulated decisions.

bucksfan2
05-03-2012, 11:33 AM
My question is could this be another case of a professional athlete that couldn't adjust to not being a professional athlete?

Yes, no, maybe??

I think it is a massive adjustment that a lot of people have trouble making. I think there are issues with your revenue stream stoping but your expenses staying put. You have lived a life in which you were hard at it year round and could eat anything you wanted, when you stop playing that is an adjustment you had to make. Guys like Mark Schlereth have said that when they quit playing football they needed to drop down to a healthy weight.

There was an article posted earlier in this thread that highlighted the surprising amount of deaths from the Super Bowl Chargers team. But my question is whether or not those deaths are directly related to football. Was Seau's suicide brought on by a mentail illness, depression, etc that was caused by contact or one that was not all that unrelated to all the suicide cases that happen throughout society.

Sea Ray
05-03-2012, 12:42 PM
Also, I thought your post was offensive mostly because it demonstrated a lot of ignorance. I wasn't personally offended.

I disagree but it's not about me. This is about Seau

RichRed
05-03-2012, 01:43 PM
At worst, Seau is a pathetic figure of a human being.

At best, he's incredibly selfish.

Or maybe there's more to it, considering the number of former NFL players who have committed suicide?

At best, your comment is ignorant. At worst, it's pathetic.

Todd Gack
05-03-2012, 02:01 PM
Or maybe there's more to it, considering the number of former NFL players who have committed suicide?

At best, your comment is ignorant. At worst, it's pathetic.

I'm sure there are plenty of others out there who seriously contemplated suicide that would call Seau a worthless piece of scum too. So I'm sure I'm not the only one.

dabvu2498
05-03-2012, 02:12 PM
I'm sure there are plenty of others out there who seriously contemplated suicide that would call Seau a worthless piece of scum too. So I'm sure I'm not the only one.

That wouldn't make you correct, however.

top6
05-03-2012, 02:13 PM
I'm sure there are plenty of others out there who seriously contemplated suicide that would call Seau a worthless piece of scum too. So I'm sure I'm not the only one.

There are plenty of people who would say Seau was a bad person because he wasn't white. That doesn't make them correct.

RichRed
05-03-2012, 02:16 PM
I'm sure there are plenty of others out there who seriously contemplated suicide that would call Seau a worthless piece of scum too. So I'm sure I'm not the only one.

And I'm sure that some of those people would be more likely to empathize with Seau, understanding full well the anguish that they themselves have been through.

But it's good to know you've made up your mind, from all your personal interaction with Seau, that he was a "piece of scum."

Sea Ray
05-03-2012, 02:17 PM
There are plenty of people who would say Seau was a bad person because he wasn't white. That doesn't make them correct.

That has nothing to do with one's opinion of people who put bullets through their chest. Race aside, whether someone is a "good guy" or a "scumbag" is an opinion that will vary from person to person and we should respect it as such

savafan
05-03-2012, 02:18 PM
That has nothing to do with one's opinion of people who put bullets through their chest. Race aside, whether someone is a "good guy" or a "scumbag" is an opinion that will vary from person to person and we should respect it as such

I don't think "respect" is the proper term...

Sea Ray
05-03-2012, 02:18 PM
I don't think "respect" is the proper term...

I "respect" your opinion on that...:thumbup:

Patrick Bateman
05-03-2012, 02:27 PM
I'm sure there are plenty of others out there who seriously contemplated suicide that would call Seau a worthless piece of scum too. So I'm sure I'm not the only one.

It's completely ignorant not to consider that this person may not have been capable of making a rational decision.

top6
05-03-2012, 02:28 PM
That has nothing to do with one's opinion of people who put bullets through their chest. Race aside, whether someone is a "good guy" or a "scumbag" is an opinion that will vary from person to person and we should respect it as such

I don't have to respect your opinion at all, and I don't respect it. I respect your right to have an opinion, but that is all.

The position you've taken (and Todd Gack has taken) in this thread is as wrong, in my opinion, as if you had come on here and criticized Seau for being Polynesian. It would be as wrong as if I came on here and mocked a poster's dead parent for being too weak to survive a heart attack. It demonstrates total ignorance of mental illness; a complete lack of empathy for other human beings; and it demonstrates the same rush to judgment that you sanctimoniously lecture posters to avoid in other threads. It's a pretty disgusting opinion, in my view, but this is America so you certainly have the right express it.

Sea Ray
05-03-2012, 02:40 PM
I don't have to respect your opinion at all, and I don't respect it. I respect your right to have an opinion, but that is all.

The position you've taken (and Todd Gack has taken) in this thread is as wrong, in my opinion, as if you had come on here and criticized Seau for being Polynesian. It would be as wrong as if I came on here and mocked a poster's dead parent for being too weak to survive a heart attack. It demonstrates total ignorance of mental illness; a complete lack of empathy for other human beings; and it demonstrates the same rush to judgment that you sanctimoniously lecture posters to avoid in other threads. It's a pretty disgusting opinion, in my view, but this is America so you certainly have the right express it.

Just so I know what disgusting opinion I have, please copy and paste what I've said that you think demonstrates a total ignorance of mental illness.

I think Ted Kaczynski was mentally ill too but I don't think that he was a good guy either. I am well aware that Seau had some issues hence my mentioning demons. I didn't go as far as Todd's description but I respect where he's coming from

top6
05-03-2012, 02:51 PM
Just so I know what disgusting opinion I have, please copy and paste what I've said that you think demonstrates a total ignorance of mental illness.

I think Ted Kaczynski was mentally ill too but I don't think that he was a good guy either. I am well aware that Seau had some issues hence my mentioning demons. I didn't go as far as Todd's description but I respect where he's coming from

No thanks, you'll just have to figure it out for yourself.

Todd Gack
05-03-2012, 02:55 PM
It's completely ignorant not to consider that this person may not have been capable of making a rational decision.

And yet, no one noticed?

Sea Ray
05-03-2012, 03:04 PM
No thanks, you'll just have to figure it out for yourself.

Cool, let's move on

Patrick Bateman
05-03-2012, 03:23 PM
And yet, no one noticed?

The human brain is far too complex to answer that honestly.

There were likely signs if he did have a disorder, but those close can often have trouble accepting reality.

Todd Gack
05-03-2012, 07:11 PM
The human brain is far too complex to answer that honestly.

There were likely signs if he did have a disorder, but those close can often have trouble accepting reality.

His illness doesn't excuse his actions. He's incredibly selfish.

Patrick Bateman
05-03-2012, 07:42 PM
His illness doesn't excuse his actions. He's incredibly selfish.

It might actually.

Just a question, have you ever been involved with someone that is mentally ill in your personal life? There's a very good chance that he had no ability to control his actions. It's possible he didnt even have the ability to be selfish.

We simply do not know.

Rojo
05-03-2012, 07:49 PM
What can you really do though? It's just kind of the nature of the game.

I don't know. I watch pro-football and like it but there's something uninspiring about it -- overpadded robots hurling at each other, over-specialization, silly rule parsing (he had control before the second knee touched the ground, blah, blah, blah).

There's a beauty, simplicity and grace to baseball, basketball, soccer that's just plain missing in the NFL product. Can't put my finger on it exactly. And don't know what to do to change it.

Rojo
05-03-2012, 07:55 PM
Great human beings don't do this to his kids and family. Anyone see what this did to his mother? You don't do that to your loved ones.

I'm guessing his mother wouldn't like what she's read about Junior on this board.

Strictly speaking, suicide is selfish. And I understand the scorn for those that do it. But the pain -- mental or physical -- must be terrible.

Also, stepping out on a limb here, I know a lot of Samoans. They are not the type to express their pain to others.

Redsfaithful
05-03-2012, 08:59 PM
I don't know. I watch pro-football and like it but there's something uninspiring about it -- overpadded robots hurling at each other, over-specialization, silly rule parsing (he had control before the second knee touched the ground, blah, blah, blah).

There's a beauty, simplicity and grace to baseball, basketball, soccer that's just plain missing in the NFL product. Can't put my finger on it exactly. And don't know what to do to change it.

I don't think football is about beauty or grace, it's about violence and power.

I don't think football will exist the way it does now for much longer. I hope they can clean it up so we still have the game, otherwise in 30 years it'll be a sideshow. I would miss it.

Also, this thread is ridiculous. People that like to condemn those that commit suicide are real deep thinkers.

Sea Ray
05-03-2012, 09:02 PM
I'm going to throw another idea out there. I wonder if steroid use could have something to do with all of this. Anybody heard that discussed anywhere?

blumj
05-03-2012, 09:05 PM
I'm going to throw another idea out there. I wonder if steroid use could have something to do with all of this. Anybody heard that discussed anywhere?

Yes, on Boston sports radio, not sure if that's the company you want to keep.

New York Red
05-03-2012, 09:16 PM
I don't think football is about beauty or grace, it's about violence and power.

I don't think football will exist the way it does now for much longer. I hope they can clean it up so we still have the game, otherwise in 30 years it'll be a sideshow. I would miss it.

Also, this thread is ridiculous. People that like to condemn those that commit suicide are real deep thinkers.
When you have former greats like Kurt Warner saying he doesn't want his own kids playing football, you know the sport's landscape is about to change drastically, on all levels. It's basically touch football now compared to when I grew up, but it's still violent, as you said. However, other than shrinking and weakening the players, what else can be done?

Scrap Irony
05-03-2012, 09:36 PM
However, other than shrinking and weakening the players, what else can be done?

Fundamentally change the sport?

How about a return to iron man football wherein players must play both sides of the ball?

RedsBaron
05-03-2012, 10:05 PM
Fundamentally change the sport?

How about a return to iron man football wherein players must play both sides of the ball?

I had the exact same thought.

New York Red
05-03-2012, 10:16 PM
Fundamentally change the sport?

How about a return to iron man football wherein players must play both sides of the ball?
Interesting concept, but wouldn't that greatly reduce the number of players needed on an NFL roster? I don't think that's the direction the league wants to go. It would probably make someone like Tim Tebow a star though. Oh wait, he's already considered a star in the league.

VottoFan54
05-03-2012, 10:28 PM
Fundamentally change the sport?

How about a return to iron man football wherein players must play both sides of the ball?

Use less pads? Would James Harrison be making head to head contact if he had a less protective helmet?

http://espn.go.com/racing/story/_/id/7075285/every-sports-league-shares-hidden-danger-safer-equipment-espn-magazine


the NFL, along with the NHL, MLB and every league struggling to keep players healthy, should keep this in mind: Making a sport safer often leads athletes to behave more recklessly.




It's anybody's guess how many players have been deluded into thinking they're protecting themselves from concussions with particular helmets when they're actually not.
In the ongoing battle to make sports safer while keeping them real, there's only one thing worse than doing nothing: giving athletes a false sense of security.

blumj
05-04-2012, 06:41 AM
The forensic pathologist who first identified chronic brain damage as a factor in the deaths of some NFL players flew to San Diego on Thursday to participate in the autopsy of former All-Pro linebacker Junior Seau, two sources with knowledge of the case told ESPN.com.


It is expected to take 4-6 weeks to determine whether Seau suffered from CTE, and at this point, it is unclear who will make that diagnosis. Seau's brain remains with the San Diego Medical Examiner and is not expected to be buried with Seau, according to sources.http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/7888497/sources-forensic-pathologist-credited-identifying-cte-involved-junior-seau-autopsy

Todd Gack
05-04-2012, 07:48 AM
It might actually.

Just a question, have you ever been involved with someone that is mentally ill in your personal life? There's a very good chance that he had no ability to control his actions. It's possible he didnt even have the ability to be selfish.

We simply do not know.

So when an alcoholic drives drunk and kills someone, I'll be sure to blame the illness and not the man.

blumj
05-04-2012, 07:57 AM
So when an alcoholic drives drunk and kills someone, I'll be sure to blame the illness and not the man.
Alcoholics may be incapable of choosing not to drink, I have no reason to believe they are incapable of choosing not to drive.

RichRed
05-04-2012, 08:49 AM
So when an alcoholic drives drunk and kills someone, I'll be sure to blame the illness and not the man.

You're embarrassing yourself.

cincrazy
05-04-2012, 09:48 AM
So when an alcoholic drives drunk and kills someone, I'll be sure to blame the illness and not the man.

Look, I'm not going to demonize you. I don't know anything about you, I'm sure you're a good person. You happen to share the same opinion as my own father. One I disagree with, and one I simply think you're uneducated on, with all due respect. Have you ever dealt with a suicidal person? My friend thought that she was doing ME and others a favor by taking her own life, because she was a "burden." And I'm sure Seau had a lot of the same thoughts.

Is it a selfish act, on the surface, for leaving children behind? Of course it is. But you've got to look deeper than that. You have to understand it's an illness. I'm not going to judge you, because maybe you've had a personal experience of some kind that has shaped your mind in this regard, as was the case for my father. But it's really unfair to demonize someone for this, and offensive to people like me that love people who came close to taking their own life.

My friend is compassionate. She's loyal. She's loving. She does charity work. Always gives her time to others. Is quick to smile. You tell me how that makes her a bad person.

bucksfan2
05-04-2012, 09:56 AM
Is it a selfish act, on the surface, for leaving children behind? Of course it is. But you've got to look deeper than that. You have to understand it's an illness. I'm not going to judge you, because maybe you've had a personal experience of some kind that has shaped your mind in this regard, as was the case for my father. But it's really unfair to demonize someone for this, and offensive to people like me that love people who came close to taking their own life.

If an father left his children and ran off with another woman what would we say about him? What if he left his children and never returned, never spoke to them, was out of their life forever?

I don't want to pass judgement on Seau and his own personal demons. But I know that if a father left his children and never to return we wouldn't think so highly of him.

Sea Ray
05-04-2012, 10:46 AM
If an father left his children and ran off with another woman what would we say about him? What if he left his children and never returned, never spoke to them, was out of their life forever?

I don't want to pass judgement on Seau and his own personal demons. But I know that if a father left his children and never to return we wouldn't think so highly of him.

It's simple. In your example he had "an illness" and as long as he did charity work and was compassionate he's a good person.

My opinion on Seau is that he was bummed at life after football. Whether it reached the point of disease or not I can't say. If he did have a mental illness then that is the root cause of him being selfish and self destructive.

He was a Hall of Fame caliber football player so it's high praise to say that he was a better person than he was a fotball player as some people gushed on ESPN and I think that's a disservice to those like Anthony Munoz who truly are .

Sea Ray
05-04-2012, 10:52 AM
You're embarrassing yourself.

I admire his politically incorrect honesty that he's willing to expose on RZ. I'm sure there's a lot of folks (especially non ORG posters) who see where Gack is coming from but wouldn't voice it here for fear of stirring the masses. Say what you want about Todd but he's not afraid of taking the heat

Todd Gack
05-04-2012, 10:54 AM
You're embarrassing yourself.

Thanks for your opinion. But I think it's rather embarrassing people are defending suicide.

Patrick Bateman
05-04-2012, 11:43 AM
Thanks for your opinion. But I think it's rather embarrassing people are defending suicide.

Again, there are so many variables at play, and lack of evidence available at this point that it's not possible to make a judgement as to whether his suicide was defendable.

I can say that as someone that has a moth with paranoid schizophrenia, if she ultimately killed herself some day, I would not be mad at her for one moment and not defend her. She is simply one of millions of people whom have no control over their actions and live in a completely different reality than us. It's scary, scary stuff, and completely haunts an individual every waking second of the day.

I reallu urge you to read up on some of this stuff before pidgeon holing every suicide taker into one neat group.

medford
05-04-2012, 12:44 PM
If an father left his children and ran off with another woman what would we say about him? What if he left his children and never returned, never spoke to them, was out of their life forever?

That is a very interesting question, taking it one step further, what if he had a mental problem, and thought the best thing for his children was if he walked away and never showed up again in their life (both physically and financially)? Certainly we would call that guy a schmuck, yet many (including myself) wouldn't have thought once to call Seau a schmuck when news first broke.

RichRed
05-04-2012, 01:21 PM
He was a Hall of Fame caliber football player so it's high praise to say that he was a better person than he was a fotball player as some people gushed on ESPN and I think that's a disservice to those like Anthony Munoz who truly are .

But all we really have to go on are the words of the people who came into contact with him. I realize there can be a tendency to embellish someone's good traits after he or she has passed away, but there are too many positive stories out there, like this one, to dismiss:

http://deadspin.com/5907297/the-night-junior-seau-picked-up-a-marine-captains-tab-and-serenaded-bar-patrons-with-a-ukulele

Of course, it's naive and simplistic to say Seau was a great guy all the time, but I don't think committing suicide for reasons we don't understand (yet) should automatically cancel out the good he did while living.

RichRed
05-04-2012, 01:31 PM
Thanks for your opinion. But I think it's rather embarrassing people are defending suicide.

I think it's awful that he committed suicide and I wish he could've found another solution to whatever was troubling him. I feel horribly for his family because they're the ones who have to live with this.

But since we don't yet fully understand what drove Seau to kill himself, and knowing what we know - even at the tip of the iceberg - about CTE and depression, it just seems absurd to conclude that he was "worthless scum."

Razor Shines
05-04-2012, 02:10 PM
I think it's awful that he committed suicide and I wish he could've found another solution to whatever was troubling him. I feel horribly for his family because they're the ones who have to live with this.

But since we don't yet fully understand what drove Seau to kill himself, and knowing what we know - even at the tip of the iceberg - about CTE and depression, it just seems absurd to conclude that he was "worthless scum."

Aaron Taylor was on a local station today and he was friends with Seau. He said that Junior suffered multiple concussions while he played but he never missed any games because of them and almost certainly suffered from CTE.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Rojo
05-04-2012, 02:36 PM
I don't think football is about beauty or grace, it's about violence and power.

Sure it is. So's rugby. But rugby looks like a "purer" sport. Maybe the equipment introduced into American football has spoiled the game.

I think the NFL plays on both sides. They want to prevent injuries while trying preserve some of the spectacular violence. I can't think of anything more violent, outside of NASCAR car wreck, than a quartback sack. The NFL has come up with these parsy rules about it. But if they want truly to prevent them, they could add another player on offense, or something.

cincrazy
05-04-2012, 05:30 PM
Thanks for your opinion. But I think it's rather embarrassing people are defending suicide.

Who is defending it?

Rojo
05-04-2012, 06:39 PM
Who is defending it?

Nobody. But you see there's this thing call "black" and this thing called "white".

MWM
05-04-2012, 06:41 PM
Talk about embarrassing, this thread is an embarrassment to Redszone. These are the times I wish those in charge here were more willing to cull the herd.

Yachtzee
05-05-2012, 01:35 AM
Sure it is. So's rugby. But rugby looks like a "purer" sport. Maybe the equipment introduced into American football has spoiled the game.

I think the NFL plays on both sides. They want to prevent injuries while trying preserve some of the spectacular violence. I can't think of anything more violent, outside of NASCAR car wreck, than a quartback sack. The NFL has come up with these parsy rules about it. But if they want truly to prevent them, they could add another player on offense, or something.

I recall reading somewhere a few months ago a column on concussions and head injuries in the NFL which raised the question as to whether the NFL should move to a soft helmet, like those worn by rugby players or Peter Cech, the goalkeeper for Chelsea. I think the reasoning is that the softer material actually works two-fold, 1) by transferring less force from the helmet-to-helmet impact to the skull and brain, and 2) by removing the false sense of security players have with hard helmets. Players with hard helmets often lower their heads when going in for the big hit, thinking they're protected from the impact. The soft helmet would encourage players to keep their heads up when tackling, and wrap the ball carrier up for the tackle as opposed to launching themselves at other players.

Sea Ray
05-05-2012, 08:10 AM
Of course, it's naive and simplistic to say Seau was a great guy all the time, but I don't think committing suicide for reasons we don't understand (yet) should automatically cancel out the good he did while living.

I wouldn't word it that way. I'd say suicide should be taken into consideration when evaluating whether someone is a stellar human being. I won't go so far as to say it makes him a creep but it does lessen him as a person in my mind as does the stories of him assaulting women.


The woman had told authorities that Seau assaulted her during an argument.

http://arizonasports.com/75/1536068/Junior-Seau-found-dead-at-California-home

Todd Gack
05-05-2012, 11:44 AM
Who is defending it?

Well, I certainly have people on my back for saying he's selfish. I would certainly call that defending his actions.

Todd Gack
05-05-2012, 11:46 AM
Nobody. But you see there's this thing call "black" and this thing called "white".

You forgot "Red" too.

VR
05-05-2012, 12:07 PM
Talk about embarrassing, this thread is an embarrassment to Redszone. These are the times I wish those in charge here were more willing to cull the herd.

+1.

Chip R
05-05-2012, 12:16 PM
I recall reading somewhere a few months ago a column on concussions and head injuries in the NFL which raised the question as to whether the NFL should move to a soft helmet, like those worn by rugby players or Peter Cech, the goalkeeper for Chelsea. I think the reasoning is that the softer material actually works two-fold, 1) by transferring less force from the helmet-to-helmet impact to the skull and brain, and 2) by removing the false sense of security players have with hard helmets. Players with hard helmets often lower their heads when going in for the big hit, thinking they're protected from the impact. The soft helmet would encourage players to keep their heads up when tackling, and wrap the ball carrier up for the tackle as opposed to launching themselves at other players.

I think if they do that, they either have to eliminate shoulder pads or design them somewhat differently so you don't have some 250 lb. linebacker leveling a ballcarrier who has a soft helmet or none at all. You think there are concussions now? If a ballcarrier - usually a QB - hits his head against the ground while being tackled, he's going to get his bell rung if he's wearing a soft helmet or none at all.

The NFL is a quarterback league. They are the big stars. More and more over the past decade the NFL has moved to protect the QB better. There are fans and others who complain about this. However, the NFL knows where their bread is buttered. The fewer star QBs there are, the worse it is for the NFL. Maybe they should go overboard to protect QBs. But let's say you eliminate he;mets or go to the soft ones except for the QBs. Let them wear the current type of helmets with one caveat: The QB cannot run beyond the line of scrimmage. That evens things up somehow for the defense and protects the QB from some of those hits.

IslandRed
05-05-2012, 12:24 PM
I recall reading somewhere a few months ago a column on concussions and head injuries in the NFL which raised the question as to whether the NFL should move to a soft helmet, like those worn by rugby players or Peter Cech, the goalkeeper for Chelsea. I think the reasoning is that the softer material actually works two-fold, 1) by transferring less force from the helmet-to-helmet impact to the skull and brain, and 2) by removing the false sense of security players have with hard helmets. Players with hard helmets often lower their heads when going in for the big hit, thinking they're protected from the impact. The soft helmet would encourage players to keep their heads up when tackling, and wrap the ball carrier up for the tackle as opposed to launching themselves at other players.

It sounds good if the goal is to reduce concussions. But that might fall into the "those who forget history" bin -- the reason today's helmets exist is because scores of kids were dying every year from skull fractures playing football.

In all honesty, I'm not sure there's a good answer here. Just a question of figuring out which risks are least bad.

paintmered
05-05-2012, 12:43 PM
I recall reading somewhere a few months ago a column on concussions and head injuries in the NFL which raised the question as to whether the NFL should move to a soft helmet, like those worn by rugby players or Peter Cech, the goalkeeper for Chelsea. I think the reasoning is that the softer material actually works two-fold, 1) by transferring less force from the helmet-to-helmet impact to the skull and brain, and 2) by removing the false sense of security players have with hard helmets. Players with hard helmets often lower their heads when going in for the big hit, thinking they're protected from the impact. The soft helmet would encourage players to keep their heads up when tackling, and wrap the ball carrier up for the tackle as opposed to launching themselves at other players.

In the case of Petr Cech, he suffered a depressed skull fracture. His wiki article makes no mention of if there was an associated concussion (he undoubtedly suffered brain trauma). I also don't know if FIFA allows for any hard objects on players like a hard-shelled helmet.

That said, I think it's hard to ignore the evidence that modern football equipment has allowed players to be more risky and hasn't made the game any safer. I expect the Seau autopsy to show there to be substantial brain damage. He was in the trenches far more than Chris Henry and had a much longer career.

Revering4Blue
05-05-2012, 02:05 PM
I think if they do that, they either have to eliminate shoulder pads or design them somewhat differently so you don't have some 250 lb. linebacker leveling a ballcarrier who has a soft helmet or none at all. You think there are concussions now? If a ballcarrier - usually a QB - hits his head against the ground while being tackled, he's going to get his bell rung if he's wearing a soft helmet or none at all.

The NFL is a quarterback league. They are the big stars. More and more over the past decade the NFL has moved to protect the QB better. There are fans and others who complain about this. However, the NFL knows where their bread is buttered. The fewer star QBs there are, the worse it is for the NFL. Maybe they should go overboard to protect QBs. But let's say you eliminate he;mets or go to the soft ones except for the QBs. Let them wear the current type of helmets with one caveat: The QB cannot run beyond the line of scrimmage. That evens things up somehow for the defense and protects the QB from some of those hits.

If that happens, I'm done with the NFL and I'll stick with College Football.

QBs reduced to robotic dropback passers = sheer boredom to me.

Redsfaithful
05-05-2012, 02:29 PM
If that happens, I'm done with the NFL and I'll stick with College Football.

QBs reduced to robotic dropback passers = sheer boredom to me.

Any changes the NFL decides to make will trickle down all the way to high school. And eventually there are going to be rule changes. Once they lose a couple of huge lawsuits they're going to have trouble getting insurance, and at that point it's hard to see how they continue with the status quo.

WMR
05-05-2012, 03:16 PM
I'm guessing when the study of his brain is completed, it will be revealed that he was living with significant brain damage from possibly hundreds of concussions over several decades of using his body like a missile. If this comes to pass, will those who have condemned him apologize or feel a little bit bad for saying what they said about him?

Todd Gack
05-06-2012, 12:41 AM
I'm guessing when the study of his brain is completed, it will be revealed that he was living with significant brain damage from possibly hundreds of concussions over several decades of using his body like a missile. If this comes to pass, will those who have condemned him apologize or feel a little bit bad for saying what they said about him?

What about those folks who've had multiple concussions who didn't commit suicide? Should I say, "Congratulations! You didn't kill yourself and leave behind all of your crying family members and friends!"

ervinsm84
05-06-2012, 01:05 AM
Being willing to take a politically incorrect and/or unpopular opinion doesn't validate an opinion anymore than any others. I'm sick of that reasoning being thrown around. But thanks for those willing to be so strong and and stand up in the face of all that is PC and tell us what suicide really is.

The nonsense in this thread that is mostly the result of ignorance and lack of education about what really goes on in a suicide is kinda disturbing, and some of that hate probably even plays a role in a lot of people with suicidal thoughts not getting the help when they should have at an early point bc it's such a taboo thing to talk about, admit to having thoughts of and so forth.

There's no way to quantify or verify this, but I'm pretty confident that there's not one person in here that doesn't have a family member or friend that at some point in their life had some serious suicidal thoughts. The problem is few of us probably ever knew about them going through that bc so few people are ever able to open up about that when they are having problems.

Yachtzee
05-08-2012, 10:44 AM
I think if they do that, they either have to eliminate shoulder pads or design them somewhat differently so you don't have some 250 lb. linebacker leveling a ballcarrier who has a soft helmet or none at all. You think there are concussions now? If a ballcarrier - usually a QB - hits his head against the ground while being tackled, he's going to get his bell rung if he's wearing a soft helmet or none at all.

The NFL is a quarterback league. They are the big stars. More and more over the past decade the NFL has moved to protect the QB better. There are fans and others who complain about this. However, the NFL knows where their bread is buttered. The fewer star QBs there are, the worse it is for the NFL. Maybe they should go overboard to protect QBs. But let's say you eliminate he;mets or go to the soft ones except for the QBs. Let them wear the current type of helmets with one caveat: The QB cannot run beyond the line of scrimmage. That evens things up somehow for the defense and protects the QB from some of those hits.

I believe the article I read, I wish I could find it, said that the hard helmets were a major contributing factor to concussions because of the transfer of energy from the impact. It said that the soft helmets provide more cushion and less transfer of impact to the skull, whether it be helmet to helmet or helmet to ground impact. The suggestion was that the NFL go to less padding overall or go to softer padding, eliminating hard plastic in helmets, shoulder pads, etc.

I think if they went that way, it would certainly change the way the game is played. We'd have to get used to NFL football that more resembled rugby in the way players are tackled and blocked.

Sea Ray
05-13-2012, 02:34 PM
The Press just won't let go of the concussion angle of this story but I don't see why they're ignoring some other equally possible causes for the suicides in the NFL.

How 'bout the possibility that players go from huge paychecks to nothing over night? Guys like Terrell Owens made over $70mill in the NFL but now he's broke. 78% of NFL players are broke 3 yrs after they retire so this is common

Another issue is the competition, adrenaline rush and adoration these players miss after they leave the football field?

I don't think it's much about concussions and the talk at ESPN of the NFL's morbid future is nuts.

VottoFan54
05-13-2012, 02:42 PM
The Press just won't let go of the concussion angle of this story but I don't see why they're ignoring some other equally possible causes for the suicides in the NFL.

How 'bout the possibility that players go from huge paychecks to nothing over night? Guys like Terrell Owens made over $70mill in the NFL but now he's broke. 78% of NFL players are broke 3 yrs after they retire so this is common

Another issue is the competition, adrenaline rush and adoration these players miss after they leave the football field?

I don't think it's much about concussions and the talk at ESPN of the NFL's morbid future is nuts.

The other professional sports leagues have the same issues, right? What do their suicide rates look like?

You may be onto something, but you would think that NBA and MLB players would have that same problem. They all pretty much go from huge paychecks to very little income. Doesn't every league have players that are adored and then when they retire, they are pretty much forgotten?

Sea Ray
05-13-2012, 03:14 PM
The other professional sports leagues have the same issues, right? What do their suicide rates look like?

You may be onto something, but you would think that NBA and MLB players would have that same problem. They all pretty much go from huge paychecks to very little income. Doesn't every league have players that are adored and then when they retire, they are pretty much forgotten?
Do the other leagues have 78% of its players destitute 2 or 3 yrs after they retire? I don't know. My impression is the avg NFL career is much shorter than the NBA and MLB

VottoFan54
05-13-2012, 03:26 PM
Do the other leagues have 78% of its players destitute 2 or 3 yrs after they retire? I don't know. My impression is the avg NFL career is much shorter than the NBA and MLB

I guess it could have something to do with the length of career or the mentallity of a NFL player. I think the suicides are a result of concussions, but nothing is really proven either way. How is steriod testing in the NFL? Could they be a factor? (I am not suggesting that Seau used roids) There are so many variables, you can't really know what causes it without extensive research.

Sent from my LG-VS700

Redsfaithful
05-13-2012, 06:16 PM
Terrell Owens isn't broke, he wants to pay less child support and alimony.

Sea Ray
05-14-2012, 09:12 AM
Terrell Owens isn't broke, he wants to pay less child support and alimony.

I'm sure he does want to pay less child support and alimony but he doesn't strike me as a wizard saving money either. In fact his efforts at hanging onto his football career indicates to me that he's desparate for money

WMR
05-22-2012, 05:29 PM
http://content.usatoday.com/communities/thehuddle/post/2012/05/ex-teammate-junior-seau-had-1500-concussions/1?csp=obinsite#.T7wE5tXoVmM

Wow... my guess was low.

Todd Gack
05-23-2012, 11:40 AM
"In the 1990s, I did a concussion seminar. They said a Grade 3 concussion meant you were knocked out, and a Grade 1 meant you were seeing stars after a hit, which made me burst out in laughter," Plummer told the San Jose Mercury News. "As a middle linebacker in the NFL, if you don't have five of these (Grade 1 effects) each game, you were inactive the next game

Amazingly, Plummer has decided not to kill himself yet.

ervinsm84
05-23-2012, 04:08 PM
Amazingly, Plummer has decided not to kill himself yet.
U stay classy toddy

Amazingly, u still are not grasping this issue, and continue to paint a convenient straw man to argue against.

Todd Gack
05-24-2012, 07:33 AM
U stay classy toddy

Amazingly, u still are not grasping this issue, and continue to paint a convenient straw man to argue against.

Are you sure I'm the one not grasping the issue?

ervinsm84
05-24-2012, 11:51 AM
My great grandfather smoked 2 packs a day for over 60 years...Lived to 95 before dying of natural causes and never got lung cancer

Amazingly, smoking never killed him. Therefore, smoking must not be dangerous for your health.

Anecdotal evidence is fun

Sea Ray
05-24-2012, 02:40 PM
My great grandfather smoked 2 packs a day for over 60 years...Lived to 95 before dying of natural causes and never got lung cancer

Amazingly, smoking never killed him. Therefore, smoking must not be dangerous for your health.

Anecdotal evidence is fun

Do you think Todd said that concussions are "not dangerous for your health" or are you stretching things a bit here?

ervinsm84
05-25-2012, 06:56 AM
So when an alcoholic drives drunk and kills someone, I'll be sure to blame the illness and not the man.


What about those folks who've had multiple concussions who didn't commit suicide? Should I say, "Congratulations! You didn't kill yourself and leave behind all of your crying family members and friends!"


Amazingly, Plummer has decided not to kill himself yet.


My great grandfather smoked 2 packs a day for over 60 years...Lived to 95 before dying of natural causes and never got lung cancer

Amazingly, smoking never killed him. Therefore, smoking must not be dangerous for your health.

Anecdotal evidence is fun


Do you think Todd said that concussions are "not dangerous for your health" or are you stretching things a bit here?
Of course it is. Thought it was obvious but did it to illustrate a point.

With these posts together, I think it may show that better.

blumj
01-10-2013, 07:41 AM
A team of independent researchers who did not know they were studying Seau's brain all concluded he suffered from chronic traumatic encephalopathy (CTE), a degenerative disease typically caused by multiple hits to the head.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/junior-seau-diagnosed-brain-disease-caused-hits-head/story?id=18171785

traderumor
01-10-2013, 10:12 AM
I have a son who really wants to play football, another who is talented and would probably be a running back candidate, perhaps a linebacker. One is 12, the other 11. I have said no and feel like a hypocrite because I love watching football. I know he thinks I am being overprotective.

I read an article several months ago about concussions in young people, and told him that was why I don't think football is safe for his mental development. They talked about the brain damage incurred by young boys playing HS football because they are getting concussions while the brain is still in developmental stages. That's when I decided my sons would not play tackle football. If it keeps them from an athletic scholarship or making millions of dollars in the NFL, so be it.

But then, he is growing up in a middle class white home and will have other opportunities to maintain or improve his situation. What about kids growing up in poverty, who have the talent and see football as perhaps their main opportunity to improve their situation? And they may be right because of our cultural inequities.

I see the big hits and the guys stumble off the field. The safety measures being taken will never be enough. Helmet technology will never dramatically improve the incidence of concussive hits, or so I read. And larger numbers of athletes are able to make bigger and bigger hits with each generation.

I imagine it has gotten to epidemic proportions thanks to the ESPN effect, who call the big hits "plays of the week." I love the sport, have grown up watching it, have my football teams that I follow, but I don't think Plummer is completely exaggerating. You see the guys get up slow, walk to the sidelines after a big hit, walking off the field as if drunk---or getting carted off.

I am feeling more and more comfortable with my decision to not let my boys play football. While it is being protective, I think it is my duty to not let my children get involved in something that will inevitably be harmful to their health, just like I don't let them smoke, drink alcohol, take drugs. They play football outside in the yard, but they are not making vicious hits on each other. While I understand they can get concussions just playing around the house, that doesn't mean I should allow them to be involved in an activity that I KNOW is going to have a high probability of one occurring in the course of playing the game.

The boys are just going to have to be disappointed on this one and stick to basketball and baseball, where this type of injury, esp. in youth leagues, is probably no higher than getting a concussion playing in the yard.

But then I ask the broader question. Will more and more parents take the position I am? Why is football excelling in suburbia, (and forgive my generalization, but I think it has merit), where they are seemingly so concerned about healthy lifestyles, but are putting together football teams that dominate and compete for state championships, at least in Ohio? The evidence is mounting. Will football go the way of boxing as a barbaric, unsafe sport in another generation or two?

Scrap Irony
01-10-2013, 01:24 PM
But then I ask the broader question. Will more and more parents take the position I am? Why is football excelling in suburbia, (and forgive my generalization, but I think it has merit), where they are seemingly so concerned about healthy lifestyles, but are putting together football teams that dominate and compete for state championships, at least in Ohio? The evidence is mounting. Will football go the way of boxing as a barbaric, unsafe sport in another generation or two?

I will not allow my son to play football for fear of sustaining a head injury, so I agree with you wholeheartedly. Anecdotally, I see football as struggling to find athletes. Last year, the three best athletes in my small school all decided (or were forced to decide) not to play. This was the reason each child (and their parents) gave. By the end of the season, only 25 kids were on the team.

This year, I switched to a much larger school of about 1500 students. Three of the best football players in the school were not allowed to play this year medically, as each suffered brain injuries (two of which were permanent enough to put the kids on IEPs) while on the field last year. As a result, the football team here also struggled to find players. By the end of the season, only around 40 kids were on the varsity squad. (More-- about 70-- were, to be fair, on the JV squad.)

Chip R
01-11-2013, 09:27 AM
I just wonder if it's not just necessarily the concussions that is causing CTE but the cumulative effect of all the hits whether they result in a concussion or not. Maybe 10 hard hits that don't cause a concussion equals 1 concussion. Maybe it's 50 or 100. It could be possible for someone to go through an entire career with a few or no concussions and still end up with CTE. It's a bit frightening to think about.

I applaud the convictions of the parents who won't let their kids play. My nephew is a junior in high school and while he gets hurt a lot, I haven't heard of any head injuries yet. He probably won't play in college but I still worry about that.

SunDeck
01-11-2013, 12:08 PM
It will never come up, but if it did I would not allow my son to play football. It's a great sport and I do like to watch it, but this concussion thing is becoming a line over which I don't think responsible parents should cross.

My late father in law played football in college back in the mid fifties. I remember very clearly a discussion I had with him over twenty years ago in which he decried the modern game because the equipment had turned athletes into (his phrase) "human missiles". He said back in his day you couldn't afford to launch yourself at an opposing player, nor could you use a leather helmet as a projectile because you would knock yourself out of the game. You had to drag a guy down or hit them with your chest and wrap them up. I have heard for years of the value of putting your head down when you are about to get hit, but I never asked him about this, and I'm sure plenty of guys in leather helmets got their bells rung pretty good, but it's always struck me that a guy from an earlier era of the game made this observation a generation ago. I wonder how accurate he really was now.

traderumor
01-11-2013, 12:20 PM
Sun Deck,

I think there is that false sense of security with equipment technology that allows guys to sacrifice their bodies. The article I read pointed that out. Its the same dynamic that causes safety features in vehicles to have the opposite effect on drivers than is intended, whereby there is a tendency to drive more aggressively because of the security that safety features will prevent serious injury. The same thing goes on the in head of a football player.

Hoosier Red
01-11-2013, 03:12 PM
I agree Traderumor,

I've also been interested in finding examples of players "back in the day" who wouldn't take advantage of a "concussed" player or would otherwise not push the envelope on hits to the head.
Much like Baseball and Hockey's unwritten rules, I wonder if football players had unwritten rules to take care of their own. As safety equipment progressed and you weren't seeing stars after every time a guy hit you, I wonder if the players became desensitized to the effects.

Stray
01-13-2013, 04:36 PM
This isn't about Junior Seau, but still about how things were in the NFL at the time. There needs to be a better way of handling injuries, and it needs to happen soon. We saw it with RG3, we see it with concussions every week, and we see the long term effects it can have in guys like Junior Seau. It's a brutal game I know, but that doesn't mean there aren't ways to make it safer.

I hate the defenseless receiver rules, but at the same time I understand what the league is trying to do.

http://www.miamiherald.com/2013/01/13/3179926/dan-le-batard-jason-taylors-pain.html

RedsBaron
01-13-2013, 06:12 PM
Sun Deck,

I think there is that false sense of security with equipment technology that allows guys to sacrifice their bodies. The article I read pointed that out. Its the same dynamic that causes safety features in vehicles to have the opposite effect on drivers than is intended, whereby there is a tendency to drive more aggressively because of the security that safety features will prevent serious injury. The same thing goes on the in head of a football player.

I agree. Years ago I was involved in litigation started by a high school senior who was paralyzed from the neck down as a result of a tackle he made. To me the game film looked as if he had lead with his head and made a spearing tackle, although a major college football coach with whom I consulted disagreed. Anyway during the course of that litigation I learned quite a bit about the limits to the protection even the best football helmets could provide.
With misgivings I allowed my middle son to play high school football and thankfully he suffered no major injuries and no concussions. In many ways football was a positive development for him. I was still glad his two brothers didn't want to play, and after all that has come out about concussions in recent years I wonder if I would have still let him play if I had the decision to make again. It is tough because football is so big here, with the high school my sons attend or attended having won three state titles since 2006.

RedsBaron
01-13-2013, 06:12 PM
NM

traderumor
01-14-2013, 03:03 PM
I agree. Years ago I was involved in litigation started by a high school senior who was paralyzed from the neck down as a result of a tackle he made. To me the game film looked as if he had lead with his head and made a spearing tackle, although a major college football coach with whom I consulted disagreed. Anyway during the course of that litigation I learned quite a bit about the limits to the protection even the best football helmets could provide.
With misgivings I allowed my middle son to play high school football and thankfully he suffered no major injuries and no concussions. In many ways football was a positive development for him. I was still glad his two brothers didn't want to play, and after all that has come out about concussions in recent years I wonder if I would have still let him play if I had the decision to make again. It is tough because football is so big here, with the high school my sons attend or attended having won three state titles since 2006.
Sadly, it will probably take a National TV audience watch a guy die on the field before the sport will take a serious hit. But it will probably happen. As for me and my house, we will sort through the hypocrisy issue, but no child of mine will get my signature on a permission slip.

MWM
01-14-2013, 10:55 PM
I was an accomplished high school player there in Cincinnati and have a 10 year old son. He will not be playing football for this very reason. I have some other friends who feel the same. I really do think it will affect the sport in the very long run..... will take some time, but it will have an impact.

If there's any silver lining for me, this could mean some of these athletes switch to soccer.

MWM
01-14-2013, 11:05 PM
Sadly, it will probably take a National TV audience watch a guy die on the field before the sport will take a serious hit. But it will probably happen. As for me and my house, we will sort through the hypocrisy issue, but no child of mine will get my signature on a permission slip.

It's just a matter of time until it happens. The massive egos of the bozos playing in the NFL will never let it change.

Chip R
01-15-2013, 12:26 AM
Sadly, it will probably take a National TV audience watch a guy die on the field before the sport will take a serious hit. But it will probably happen. As for me and my house, we will sort through the hypocrisy issue, but no child of mine will get my signature on a permission slip.

It may not have to be so tragic. If insurance companies stop insuring these players because it's too great a risk, that may spell the end of youth football as we know it.

bucksfan2
01-15-2013, 11:37 AM
Sun Deck,

I think there is that false sense of security with equipment technology that allows guys to sacrifice their bodies. The article I read pointed that out. Its the same dynamic that causes safety features in vehicles to have the opposite effect on drivers than is intended, whereby there is a tendency to drive more aggressively because of the security that safety features will prevent serious injury. The same thing goes on the in head of a football player.

I absolutely think there is a false sense of security. There was an article years ago in the WSJ proposing banning the helmet or going back to leather helmets as a way to limit head injuries.

On a personal note I have found a difference in the way I ski when I have a helmet on as opposed to a regular winter hat. You tend to "feel" more invincible, take more risks, realize that if you do get out of control you have a helmet to protect your head.

RichRed
01-15-2013, 02:08 PM
It may not have to be so tragic. If insurance companies stop insuring these players because it's too great a risk, that may spell the end of youth football as we know it.

Yes, I've been thinking for quite some time that this is where we're headed.

A friend of mine from England made the observation over 10 years ago that he thought the equipment football players wear leads to more injuries than in a sport like rugby which, while it can be violent, doesn't seem to suffer from nearly as many serious injuries.

traderumor
01-15-2013, 02:29 PM
Think anyone will watch NFL flag football? :lol:

blumj
01-23-2013, 02:07 PM
Seau's family sues NFL:


The wrongful death lawsuit, filed Wednesday in California Superior Court in San Diego, blames the NFL for its "acts or omissions" that hid the dangers of repetitive blows to the head. It says Seau developed chronic traumatic encephalopathy (CTE) from those hits, and accuses the NFL of deliberately ignoring and concealing evidence of the risks associated with traumatic brain injuries.
http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/8872778/junior-seau-family-files-wrongful-death-suit-vs-nfl

coachpipe
01-23-2013, 02:37 PM
Im sorry, but this is just wrong. Even if doctors per say didnt know the full effect of damages caused by playing football, everyone with any common sense knows that you can get hurt playing the sport..OR DOING ANYTHING for that matter. If he got clocked and had a hard time concentrating on the field and he felt like something wasnt right (which everyone who has had a concussion knows) then he should have been smart enough to take himself out of the game.

You know the Risk...except it. I know the risk everytime I get in my car and drive that if I wreck I could die or be severely injured. Its common sense and people are acting like its something new to them..

WMR
01-23-2013, 03:40 PM
If you look at the stance the NFL, until VERY recently, has taken towards concussions and permanent brain damage, and what has since come out regarding their knowledge concerning this issue as far back as the early 90s, late 80s, I think they're in trouble.

MWM
01-23-2013, 03:53 PM
The NFL knew it was just a matter of time before they were sued for this. They knew this day was coming long before Seau died. I think they were more worried about a class action suit (which still is likely to come) than a wrongful death suit, but litigation around concussions was going to happen.

I don't know if the family will get a sizeable settlement, but this could be the thing that has the most impact on making real change in the NFL. It will be interesting to watch how the NFL responds. They're going to have little choice but to fight it regardless of cost. If they settle, or if the judgement goes against them, it will be disastrous for them financially. Former players will be lining up to go next.

Seems like it will all hinge on how much was known by the NFL and whether or not they attempted to hide it. Whether a legit lawsuit or not, it's a monumental event in the history of the NFL.

This is a fascinating thing to ponder. The NFL has blown by every other domestic sport in popularity, revenue, enthusiasm, culture, etc..... There's never been anything like what we see with the NFL right now. But I don't think it's that far-fetched to think the sport is going to look completely different in 20 years. The impact of brain research and knowledge is already impacting participation in the sport for youth, but the spotlight something like this will put on the risks of playing football could be crippling to the long run sustainability of the sport that's so popular now.

I'm not predicting it will fade away, only that it wouldn't surprise me. However, it would surprise me if the sport doesn't at least look at lot different than it does now.

LegallyMinded
01-23-2013, 10:04 PM
I don't know if the family will get a sizeable settlement, but this could be the thing that has the most impact on making real change in the NFL. It will be interesting to watch how the NFL responds. They're going to have little choice but to fight it regardless of cost. If they settle, or if the judgement goes against them, it will be disastrous for them financially. Former players will be lining up to go next.

Seems like it will all hinge on how much was known by the NFL and whether or not they attempted to hide it. Whether a legit lawsuit or not, it's a monumental event in the history of the NFL.




Odds are the case will just get dismissed because the family's claim is preempted by federal labor law-- the court won't even have to reach the merits of the claim.

I think we'll see a bigger effect in the negotiations for the next CBA, with the players demanding some form of compensation for or protection from head injuries.

Sea Ray
01-24-2013, 09:24 AM
Odds are the case will just get dismissed because the family's claim is preempted by federal labor law-- the court won't even have to reach the merits of the claim.

I think we'll see a bigger effect in the negotiations for the next CBA, with the players demanding some form of compensation for or protection from head injuries.

What do you make of the larger suit now in the works by the Players Assoc? Do you see it being settled out of court? Do the players have a case? Is it similar to the smoking case when the tobacco companies withheld evidence of the dangers of smoking?

traderumor
01-24-2013, 11:35 AM
Odds are the case will just get dismissed because the family's claim is preempted by federal labor law-- the court won't even have to reach the merits of the claim.

I think we'll see a bigger effect in the negotiations for the next CBA, with the players demanding some form of compensation for or protection from head injuries.What do you mean by "odds"? I'm not an attorney but it would seem that it either is or isn't preempted by Federal labor law and that would be a pretty easy call by a judge.

bucksfan2
01-24-2013, 11:44 AM
Heard an attorney on Mike and Mike in the morning and Seau's family will be forced to provide that there was documentation that talked about the dangers of football and concealed them from the public. He also said that there must be a direct comparison between NFL football, head trauma, and Seau's death.

He also compared it to the cigarette litigation. He said there were whistle blowers in that litigation that said the cigarette companies had documents about the adverse health effects that they squashed. If the NFL doesn't have such documents then Seau doesn't have a case.

LegallyMinded
01-24-2013, 12:17 PM
What do you mean by "odds"? I'm not an attorney but it would seem that it either is or isn't preempted by Federal labor law and that would be a pretty easy call by a judge.

Yeah, it should be a pretty easy call, but the problem is that reasonable judges can come to different conclusions even when interpreting the same contract and same complaint.

The whole purpose of the preemption of claims that require interpreting a collective bargaining agreement, for instance, is to prevent judges in different jurisdictions from giving the contract different meanings. So, even if most judges would find that a contract says X (or that claim X is preempted), another judge might decide the contract says Y (or that claim X is not preempted).

WMR
01-24-2013, 12:55 PM
If the NFL willfully obstructed/hid their true knowledge of head injuries/concussions etc., I don't see the CBA argument saving them.

Hell, there's probably provisions that negate CBA interpretations in cases of fraud.

Ravenlord
01-24-2013, 02:57 PM
It will never come up, but if it did I would not allow my son to play football. It's a great sport and I do like to watch it, but this concussion thing is becoming a line over which I don't think responsible parents should cross.

My late father in law played football in college back in the mid fifties. I remember very clearly a discussion I had with him over twenty years ago in which he decried the modern game because the equipment had turned athletes into (his phrase) "human missiles". He said back in his day you couldn't afford to launch yourself at an opposing player, nor could you use a leather helmet as a projectile because you would knock yourself out of the game. You had to drag a guy down or hit them with your chest and wrap them up. I have heard for years of the value of putting your head down when you are about to get hit, but I never asked him about this, and I'm sure plenty of guys in leather helmets got their bells rung pretty good, but it's always struck me that a guy from an earlier era of the game made this observation a generation ago. I wonder how accurate he really was now.
this makes me wonder what the ratio of head injuries is in a sport like rugby.

M2
01-24-2013, 03:11 PM
This is a fascinating thing to ponder. The NFL has blown by every other domestic sport in popularity, revenue, enthusiasm, culture, etc..... There's never been anything like what we see with the NFL right now. But I don't think it's that far-fetched to think the sport is going to look completely different in 20 years. The impact of brain research and knowledge is already impacting participation in the sport for youth, but the spotlight something like this will put on the risks of playing football could be crippling to the long run sustainability of the sport that's so popular now.

I think you're right. It will happen gradually, but I've had discussions with other parents about our kids playing football (usually with guys like myself who played football) and the overwhelming response is "No way am I letting my son play that sport." There's a question as to whether my town (pop. 60,000) is going to be able to maintain a football program. They don't have the numbers for a freshman team and half of the JV team is needed to fill out the varsity roster.

And I live in the same town as Tom Brady and Bob Kraft. In fact Jonathan Kraft's 11 year-old son is playing soccer, not football (though I think he's got an older son who plays football). Obviously football's more deeply ingrained in places like Ohio/western PA and Texas, but the argument that "I did xyz and I turned out fine" doesn't seem to gain much traction in other facets of society (wearing a seatbelt, drunk driving, smoking, wearing a helmet when you ride a bike). I doubt football will prove to be an exception long-term. You can play sports which don't damage your brain.

The model for where football might go is boxing. It used to be massive, the only sport which could challenge baseball's supremacy during the Golden Era. It still does good business and is a popular gambling sport. Yet people are less interested in the average boxing card and mostly get worked up over megafights. Olympic boxing has gone way downhill (at least in the U.S.) and nowhere near as many kids get involved with Golden Gloves as they did 50 years ago. Most parents certainly don't want their kids getting their brains knocked around inside a boxing ring. I can see that kind of future for football - big events, less youth participation, generally older fan base, increasingly taking a back seat to other sports. Might be more like a 40-year process than 20.

traderumor
01-24-2013, 03:14 PM
I think you're right. It will happen gradually, but I've had discussions with other parents about our kids playing football (usually with guys like myself who played football) and the overwhelming response is "No way am I letting my son play that sport." There's a question as to whether my town (pop. 60,000) is going to be able to maintain a football program. They don't have the numbers for a freshman team and half of the JV team is needed to fill out the varsity roster.

And I live in the same town as Tom Brady and Bob Kraft. In fact Jonathan Kraft's 11 year-old son is playing soccer, not football (though I think he's got an older son who plays football). Obviously football's more deeply ingrained in places like Ohio/western PA and Texas, but the argument that "I did xyz and I turned out fine" doesn't seem to gain much traction in other facets of society (wearing a seatbelt, drunk driving, smoking, wearing a helmet when you ride a bike). I doubt football will prove to be an exception long-term. You can play sports which don't damage your brain.

The model for where football might go is boxing. It used to be massive, the only sport which could challenge baseball's supremacy during the Golden Era. It still does good business and is a popular gambling sport. Yet people are less interested in the average boxing card and mostly get worked up over megafights. Olympic boxing has gone way downhill (at least in the U.S.) and nowhere near as many kids get involved with Golden Gloves as they did 50 years ago. Most parents certainly don't want their kids getting their brains knocked around inside a boxing ring. I can see that kind of future for football - big events, less youth participation, generally older fan base, increasingly taking a back seat to other sports. Might be more like a 40-year process than 20.Cage football with no equipment?:lol:

westofyou
01-24-2013, 03:15 PM
Cage football?:lol:

Pro Basketball was played in a cage until the 30's

http://www.blackfives.com/vintage-basketball-cage-game-re-enactment/

traderumor
01-24-2013, 03:16 PM
Pro Basketball was played in a cage until the 30's

http://www.blackfives.com/vintage-basketball-cage-game-re-enactment/In my area, they should still use them. Gets rowdy at about any bball game I go to at any level.

RichRed
07-24-2013, 04:21 PM
Bengals owner Mike Brown: Link between concussions and dementia is "merely speculation." Well, that's good enough for me.

http://tracking.si.com/2013/07/23/bengals-mike-brown-link-concussion-dementia-speculation/?xid=nl_siextra

Yachtzee
07-24-2013, 08:14 PM
Bengals owner Mike Brown: Link between concussions and dementia is "merely speculation." Well, that's good enough for me.

http://tracking.si.com/2013/07/23/bengals-mike-brown-link-concussion-dementia-speculation/?xid=nl_siextra

Remember that Brown is a lawyer by training. I expect that the attorneys representing the NFL in the lawsuit by the former players are saying the same thing. To say otherwise would be an admission that could damage the defense of the lawsuit. Brown is merely towing the party line.

Boston Red
07-24-2013, 09:27 PM
Bengals owner Mike Brown: Link between concussions and dementia is "merely speculation." Well, that's good enough for me.

http://tracking.si.com/2013/07/23/bengals-mike-brown-link-concussion-dementia-speculation/?xid=nl_siextra

Hey, if anyone is an expert on dementia, it's Mike Brown!

WMR
07-24-2013, 09:49 PM
Bengals owner Mike Brown: Link between concussions and dementia is "merely speculation." Well, that's good enough for me.

http://tracking.si.com/2013/07/23/bengals-mike-brown-link-concussion-dementia-speculation/?xid=nl_siextra

What an ass...

Slyder
07-25-2013, 12:07 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ji-cT58rgNc
Hey, if anyone is an expert on dementia, it's Mike Brown!

Wonderful Monds
07-25-2013, 12:16 AM
What an ass...

That's putting it very gently.