Tim Welke Strikes Again

[redsfan30]

I was looking around on the Sun Deck and found a piece about Tim Welke blowing another call. Keep in mind, Welke was the home plate umpire last Thursday who called a ball on Sean Marshall right before the three run tater to win the game.

Yesterday in the Rockies Dodgers game, a groundball was hit to short and the throw to first pulled Todd Helton off the bag by a good foot to 18 inches. Welke calls the baserunner out.

Balls and strikes are one thing and they can be argued until the end of time. But this should be a job-reviewable offense.

Hopefully somebody more computer savy than myself can post a link to the video...it's on Yahoo.

[klw]

http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20120502&content_id=30242410&vkey=news_col&c_id=col
Above is the MLB.com article with video. At the end of the clip is the best angle- wow Helton was never near the bag! Jump ahead to the 58sec mark.

You know it is bad when the 1b says what Helton did.


Helton came well off the bag to field third baseman Chris Nelson's rushed, wide throw in the sixth inning. TV replays showed Helton was a good three feet away from the bag, yet 27-year veteran umpire and crew chief Tim Welke called the Dodgers' Jerry Hairston Jr. out to end the inning in the Rockies' eventual 8-5 victory at Coors Field.

"Neighborhood?" Helton quipped. "It wasn't in the same area code."

[dougdirt]

MLB Tonight showed it and claim that Helton was 3.1 feet off of the bag when he caught the ball.

[RedsBaron]

I want to hear again why instant replay shouldn't be used for terrible calls such as this. That was a worse call than Jim Joyce's of two years ago that robbed Armando Galarraga of a perfect game.
I understand that umpries are human and make mistakes like the rest of us. What I do not understand is why MLB refuses to take action that could prevent those mistakes.

[George Anderson]

That was embarrasing.

The HP umpire is running up the line to look for a potential pulled foot so why Welke and the HP ump didn't get together and get the call right is beyond me.

I just watched it again and Welke is way out of position, had he been 10' off the baseline instead of 15' plus he would have had a better angle to see the foot on the bag. Instead he was looking straight at the first baseman making the catch as opposed to an angle where he can see the play better.

[TOBTTReds]

There's a pic in this thread...
http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=95207&page=2

[MikeThierry]

The minute I think NHL officiating is the worst in professional sports, an ump misses such a clear call like this and gets me back to the opinion that MLB umpiring is the biggest joke in the 4 major sports. This is another example of why the "human element" is a flawed way to officiate a sport.

[Reds Fanatic]

i think the umpires union is the biggest reason nothing gets done to incompetent umpires. Umpires are protected by the union not matter how bad they are. The fact that CB Bucknor even has a job shows you that nothing is ever done no matter how bad they are.

[HokieRed]

IMHO, Welke called a terrible game in Homer's start against Washington. There was no plate for Bailey at all that day. The Reds flailed away at Jackson so badly they never took advantage of it.

[Blimpie]

As the First Base Coach, Lopes should have been FAR more vocal from the onset of the call.

It was not until Mattingly came charging out did he appear to even have an opinion on the matter.

That sure didn't help the Dodgers' ability to get the call appealed.

[smith288]

Why don't all the officials get together like in basketball and make the right call? If the HP saw the foot off, he should have immediately ran to Welke and said "dude, he was 3 ft off, he's safe". Then over turn the call and everyone's happy.

MLB is so bad with the umpire protection.

[Blimpie]

Why don't all the officials get together like in basketball and make the right call? If the HP saw the foot off, he should have immediately ran to Welke and said "dude, he was 3 ft off, he's safe". Then over turn the call and everyone's happy.

MLB is so bad with the umpire protection.That is... unless the umpires resign en masse during an ill-fated attempt to gain leverage in a labor negotiation.

[smith288]

That is... unless the umpires resign en masse during an ill-fated attempt to gain leverage in a labor negotiation.
That was a pleasure to watch personally.

[Chip R]

Why don't all the officials get together like in basketball and make the right call? If the HP saw the foot off, he should have immediately ran to Welke and said "dude, he was 3 ft off, he's safe". Then over turn the call and everyone's happy.

MLB is so bad with the umpire protection.

That has happened with other umpires. I suppose it's up to the discretion of the umpire who made the call and his crew. Perhaps a guy like Welke is such a jerk that he doesn't even want to consider that he's wrong and will not ask for or accept help. Perhaps the other umpires on his crew felt that if they questioned his call he'd be a real bear to get along with. Who knows?

[George Anderson]

That has happened with other umpires. I suppose it's up to the discretion of the umpire who made the call and his crew. Perhaps a guy like Welke is such a jerk that he doesn't even want to consider that he's wrong and will not ask for or accept help. Perhaps the other umpires on his crew felt that if they questioned his call he'd be a real bear to get along with. Who knows?

The general rule of thumb is you dont get help on judgement calls unless it something like a pulled foot or swiped tag. However it is not a requirement that you ask for help so maybe Welke was just being a jerk.

[dougdirt]

The general rule of thumb is you dont get help on judgement calls unless it something like a pulled foot or swiped tag. However it is not a requirement that you ask for help so maybe Welke was just being a jerk.

Shouldn't the general rule of thumb be "get the call right"?

[George Anderson]

Shouldn't the general rule of thumb be "get the call right"?

Yes it is and the vast, vast majority of the time they do.

[dougdirt]

Yes it is and the vast, vast majority of the time they do.

Sure. But when they don't and then someone refuses to get help....?

[George Anderson]

Sure. But when they don't and then someone refuses to get help....?

Welke should have asked for help on that play.

Beats me why he didn't other than he just didn't want to.

[RedsBaron]

I have just read that the producers of the first "Naked Gun" movie have threatened a copyright infringement lawsuit against Welke for the copying of Leslie Nielsen's umpiring routine in that film. ;)

[*BaseClogger*]

The minute I think NHL officiating is the worst in professional sports, an ump misses such a clear call like this and gets me back to the opinion that MLB umpiring is the biggest joke in the 4 major sports. This is another example of why the "human element" is a flawed way to officiate a sport.

Give me the umpires over basketball officiating any day of the week...

[camisadelgolf]

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/Welke.jpg

[dougdirt]

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/Welke.jpg

OUT!:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

[traderumor]

Give me the umpires over basketball officiating any day of the week...Yea, but reffing basketball is like herding cats. 2 or 3 guys watching 10 people moving around the floor, it is a very difficult officiating gig...I've done both in youth sports and baseball umpiring is much easier. I empathize a little more with bball refs just because of the difficulty.

[CySeymour]

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/Welke.jpg

Wow! How is that even debatable?

[dougdirt]

Wow! How is that even debatable?

It wasn't. There was no debate. He was out. The other umpires didn't correct him. That is what makes it even worse. There is no way that someone else on the crew didn't see Helton was off the bag by 4 feet.

[George Anderson]

Wow! How is that even debatable?

It is nauseating.

In a 4 man crew at the MLB level to make a call like that is insane.

The problem was he was out of position to make the call, but why he was out of position is the million dollar question.

[George Anderson]

It wasn't. There was no debate. He was out. The other umpires didn't correct him. That is what makes it even worse. There is no way that someone else on the crew didn't see Helton was off the bag by 4 feet.

No it is on Welke to ask for help. The other umpires cannot help unless asked.

[757690]

It is nauseating.

In a 4 man crew at the MLB level to make a call like that is insane.

The problem was he was out of position to make the call, but why he was out of position is the million dollar question.

Right. If you saw where Welke was standing, you would understand why he called him out. He couldn't see where Helton's foot was, from where he was standing. Welke was at least ten feet out of position.

[CySeymour]

Who is the crew chief of that group of umps? I would think the crew chief would at least have some responsibility to approach the ump and suggest he get a different point of view.

[George Anderson]

Right. If you saw where Welke was standing, you would understand why he called him out. He couldn't see where Helton's foot was, from where he was standing. Welke was at least ten feet out of position.

Bingo!!! It is all about getting the right angle.

Sometimes in the world of umpiring it is physically impossible to get the best angle on a play but in Welke's case there should be no excuse.

[Bumstead]

Who is the crew chief of that group of umps? I would think the crew chief would at least have some responsibility to approach the ump and suggest he get a different point of view.

Nope. On a judgement call it is on the umpire who makes the call to ask for help. If he does not the other umpires just support his decision. I umpire HS baseball and basketball. I agree with GA on his positioning; I cannot explain why he wouldn't ask for help there. He should want the call to be right and not worry about his ego.

Bum

[dougdirt]

Nope. On a judgement call it is on the umpire who makes the call to ask for help. If he does not the other umpires just support his decision. I umpire HS baseball and basketball. I agree with GA on his positioning; I cannot explain why he wouldn't ask for help there. He should want the call to be right and not worry about his ego.

Bum

I cannot explain why he should HAVE to ask for help if someone else saw he got the call wrong. If they want to get the call right, then they need to do so. Not only do so if someone who made the call isn't sure they made the right/wrong call.

[George Anderson]

Who is the crew chief of that group of umps? I would think the crew chief would at least have some responsibility to approach the ump and suggest he get a different point of view.

The crew chief is Time Welke.

http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/official_info/umpires/crews.jsp

I understand your suggestion but keep in mind the crew chief could have been at third base where he would have no idea if the foot was pulled or not. You cannot reverse a judgement call but you can ask for help on pulled foots, swiped tags etc.

In fact I had an instance last night on play that was my call where the left fielder made a diving catch in the outfield and I called it an out. My partner made a mistake by making a call that was not his call and made the safe call.
He knew he screwed up and after our quick conference I had my call stand. The coach was wanting the other ump to overrule me but as I told the coach it was my call and judgement calls cannot be reversed by another umpire. You have to have a certain set of guidelines or you will have coaches wanting umpires to overrule each other several times a game.

[Bumstead]

I cannot explain why he should HAVE to ask for help if someone else saw he got the call wrong. If they want to get the call right, then they need to do so. Not only do so if someone who made the call isn't sure they made the right/wrong call.

That would require them to change the rule book then. You can't have umpires being 2nd guessed by their counterparts every play. He knows he should have asked for help but his ego got in the way. That is the problem with MLB umpires; they got big head disease. Umpires miss calls, it happens; but on something like this where he knows he was out of position, he should have asked for help and he knows it. Hopefully the head of umpires is bringing this to his attention, but knowing MLB umpires and their union, probably not.

[dougdirt]

That would require them to change the rule book then. You can't have umpires being 2nd guessed by their counterparts every play. He knows he should have asked for help but his ego got in the way. That is the problem with MLB umpires; they got big head disease. Umpires miss calls, it happens; but on something like this where he knows he was out of position, he should have asked for help and he knows it. Hopefully the head of umpires is bringing this to his attention, but knowing MLB umpires and their union, probably not.
No, they wouldn't be second guessed every play because they usually get it right and it isn't close. If someone else on the crew is sure you got the call wrong, they need to step up and tell you. Period.

[George Anderson]

That would require them to change the rule book then. You can't have umpires being 2nd guessed by their counterparts every play. He knows he should have asked for help but his ego got in the way. That is the problem with MLB umpires; they got big head disease. Umpires miss calls, it happens; but on something like this where he knows he was out of position, he should have asked for help and he knows it. Hopefully the head of umpires is bringing this to his attention, but knowing MLB umpires and their union, probably not.

Nice to have a fellow ump here!!

The thing is the HP ump is running up the line to look for a pulled foot. If Welke has no intent to ever go to the HP ump for help then what is the point in the HP ump busting ass up the line?

Umpires in general are really great people and usually great baseball people but........it seems IMO the higher one gets in the professional rankings the nuttier and more arrogant they seem to get.

[Bumstead]

No, they wouldn't be second guessed every play because they usually get it right and it isn't close. If someone else on the crew is sure you got the call wrong, they need to step up and tell you. Period.

That's not what happens. The first time an umpire gets over-ruled it is probably the right call, but then the other umpire assumes that every call the guy he just over-ruled makes is wrong and quits watching what he's supposed to be watching. Then either he misses a call or he over-rules the same umpire when that umpire is in perfect position to make the correct call. I speak from experience here. Each umpire has a job to do and one of their jobs is to be focused on their areas and be willing to help when asked. If the umpires are focused elsewhere they will make errors in their own areas.

[Bumstead]

Nice to have a fellow ump here!!

The thing is the HP ump is running up the line to look for a pulled foot. If Welke has no intent to ever go to the HP ump for help then what is the point in the HP ump busting ass up the line?

Umpires in general are really great people and usually great baseball people but........it seems IMO the higher one gets in the professional rankings the nuttier and more arrogant they seem to get.

Yep. I notice at the Junior Varsity and Freshman level umpires just want to get the calls right. At varsity, it depends on who the umpire is and you have to tread lightly with some of them! I can't imagine working with some of these MLB guys...I thought I would stick my head out here and provide some support. You make solid points.

[George Anderson]

That's not what happens. The first time an umpire gets over-ruled it is probably the right call, but then the other umpire assumes that every call the guy he just over-ruled makes is wrong and quits watching what he's supposed to be watching. Then either he misses a call or he over-rules the same umpire when that umpire is in perfect position to make the correct call. I speak from experience here. Each umpire has a job to do and one of their jobs is to be focused on their areas and be willing to help when asked. If the umpires are focused elsewhere they will make errors in their own areas.

There are very few instances where another umpire on the field is going to have a batter view of a play than the umpire at the base making the call. I have a hard time trying to remember a call that was not mine where I was 100% positive my partner was wrong to the point I would overturn it. To keep the game running smooth and quick your best bet is to not have umpires having conferences a couple times a game to make sure all agree on the call.

[dougdirt]

There are very few instances where another umpire on the field is going to have a batter view of a play than the umpire at the base making the call. I have a hard time trying to remember a call that was not mine where I was 100% positive my partner was wrong to the point I would overturn it. To keep the game running smooth and quick your best bet is to not have umpires having conferences a couple times a game to make sure all agree on the call.

Then put one in a replay booth and give the crew chief an ear piece. Before the manager can even get out to argue the right call can be confirmed by the guy with a 42 inch monitor, slow motion and 1080p video. Get the calls right. It is as simple as that. This resistance just boggles the mind.

[George Anderson]

Then put one in a replay booth and give the crew chief an ear piece. Before the manager can even get out to argue the right call can be confirmed by the guy with a 42 inch monitor, slow motion and 1080p video. Get the calls right. It is as simple as that. This resistance just boggles the mind.

I have no problem with a challenge system similar to the NFL.

[dougdirt]

I have no problem with a challenge system similar to the NFL.

Why does there need to be a challenge system that limits the amount of right calls? Why can't they all just be right. It honestly doesn't take more than 15 seconds to get it right. It takes more than 15 seconds from the time of the call to the next play to begin.

[George Anderson]

Why does there need to be a challenge system that limits the amount of right calls? Why can't they all just be right. It honestly doesn't take more than 15 seconds to get it right. It takes more than 15 seconds from the time of the call to the next play to begin.

15 seconds???

Once the play would end, the ump in the booth gets the play on the screen, then slowed down to where he can see if it was the correct call or not will sure take longer then 15 seconds. I am guessing it would take a good minute or two at least.

I can't see everyone on the field standing with their hands on their hips looking up at the scorebox waiting for the replay booth to make a call 2 or 3 times a game.

[dougdirt]

15 seconds???

Once the play would end, the ump in the booth gets the play on the screen, then slowed down to where he can see if it was the correct call or not will sure take longer then 15 seconds. I am guessing it would take a good minute or two at least.

I can't see everyone on the field standing with their hands on their hips looking up at the scorebox waiting for the replay booth to make a call 2 or 3 times a game.

Fox sports seems to be able to get the slow mo in that amount of time. And I could care less if it does take one minute to make it happen once a game. The call being right is more important than people spending an extra 45 seconds with their hands on their hips.

[Bumstead]

Fox sports seems to be able to get the slow mo in that amount of time. And I could care less if it does take one minute to make it happen once a game. The call being right is more important than people spending an extra 45 seconds with their hands on their hips.

I don't have a problem with a replay system, but I don't think that was the problem here. The problem was the ego of the umpire. He knows that from his position he should ask for help. Ask baseball why there has been no explanation for why help wasn't asked for. Replay shouldn't have been needed there.

How many plays are we talking about here? One play 3-4 times a year gets fans all up in arms. The games are too long and we need to speed them up...but we have these 4 plays a season that need to be replayed...OK, let's give each manager 3 challenges a game and extend the time of the games...then the fans: "why do these games take so long?" In general, baseball umpires do a tremendous job; yes, they miss calls here and there but in the grand scheme, they are very few and far between.

[dougdirt]

I don't have a problem with a replay system, but I don't think that was the problem here. The problem was the ego of the umpire. He knows that from his position he should ask for help. Ask baseball why there has been no explanation for why help wasn't asked for. Replay shouldn't have been needed there.

How many plays are we talking about here? One play 3-4 times a year gets fans all up in arms. The games are too long and we need to speed them up...but we have these 4 plays a season that need to be replayed...OK, let's give each manager 3 challenges a game and extend the time of the games...then the fans: "why do these games take so long?" In general, baseball umpires do a tremendous job; yes, they miss calls here and there but in the grand scheme, they are very few and far between.

The games are too long is the lamest excuse ever. Baseball games are three hours. Football games are three hours.

And what is going to take longer, the challenge that takes less than a minute or the arguing with the umpire that takes two? Resistance to technology is just plain stupid. Baseball has been doing it for as long as they can on the field, which is strange, because off of the field they have led the way.

[Bumstead]

The games are too long is the lamest excuse ever. Baseball games are three hours. Football games are three hours.

And what is going to take longer, the challenge that takes less than a minute or the arguing with the umpire that takes two? Resistance to technology is just plain stupid. Baseball has been doing it for as long as they can on the field, which is strange, because off of the field they have led the way.

I don't have a problem with it. Most people complain about how long baseball games last. You want to add something that is going to correct 0.5% or less of the calls made and is going to add time to the game. There will not be a replay system that takes less than a minute in the near future.

My stance on all this has to do with umpiring and the way it works and my experience. If you want to argue for or against a replay system, then that is a different topic. Personally, I don't have a problem with the length of baseball games but many do and to this point MLB has been sensitive to adding anything that extends the time it takes to play a baseball game.

Bum

[camisadelgolf]

That's why you run 'em out, folks.

[RedsManRick]

I don't have a problem with a replay system, but I don't think that was the problem here. The problem was the ego of the umpire. He knows that from his position he should ask for help. Ask baseball why there has been no explanation for why help wasn't asked for. Replay shouldn't have been needed there.

How many plays are we talking about here? One play 3-4 times a year gets fans all up in arms. The games are too long and we need to speed them up...but we have these 4 plays a season that need to be replayed...OK, let's give each manager 3 challenges a game and extend the time of the games...then the fans: "why do these games take so long?" In general, baseball umpires do a tremendous job; yes, they miss calls here and there but in the grand scheme, they are very few and far between.

I really don't understand why people keep coming back to this issue. With a system such as Doug laid out, there'd be virtually no extra time because the decision would lay in the hands of the guy in the booth. Manager challenges simply aren't needed to make it work.

And ESPN did a study that found that there was less than 1 "close" play per game that would need a 2nd look. The whole "slow down the game" issue simply isn't one.

[Bumstead]

I really don't understand why people keep coming back to this issue. With a system such as Doug laid out, there'd be virtually no extra time because the decision would lay in the hands of the guy in the booth. Manager challenges simply aren't needed to make it work.

And ESPN did a study that found that there was less than 1 "close" play per game that would need a 2nd look. The whole "slow down the game" issue simply isn't one.

Name a replay system that doesn't slow down the game in any of the major sports.

[dougdirt]

Name a replay system that doesn't slow down the game in any of the major sports.

The ones that aren't used. All of the replay systems use on field officials who have to go over to a monitor somewhere that isn't on the field to review the play. It takes them longer to get to the monitor than it does for those of us sitting at home to know what they correct call was.

[Bumstead]

The ones that aren't used. All of the replay systems use on field officials who have to go over to a monitor somewhere that isn't on the field to review the play. It takes them longer to get to the monitor than it does for those of us sitting at home to know what they correct call was.

And you think MLB is suddenly going to do it any different? Who is going to pay for the extra "umpire" and the equipment required for this system? I guarantee it won't be MLB, it will be the fans. It already costs a ridiculous amount to go to an MLB game, so we should add these costs so that we can get 1 more call right every 40 or so games?

This is what baseball is fighting. Time and cost. It's reality whether any of us like it or not. MLB should be asking why Welke didn't ask for help, not changing their stance on replay based on this 1 missed call.

Bum

[George Anderson]

And you think MLB is suddenly going to do it any different? Who is going to pay for the extra "umpire" and the equipment required for this system? I guarantee it won't be MLB, it will be the fans. It already costs a ridiculous amount to go to an MLB game, so we should add these costs so that we can get 1 more call right every 40 or so games?

This is what baseball is fighting. Time and cost. It's reality whether any of us like it or not. MLB should be asking why Welke didn't ask for help, not changing their stance on replay based on this 1 missed call.

Bum

The cost really has no bearing on this idea. Another umpire won't change the price of tickets.

You did hit the nail on the head that had Welke just called it right we would not be having this discussion. Instead of all these ideas that people want to try to make umpiring better lets just demand the ones on the field do it right so we won't have to deal with these other ideas.

[dougdirt]

And you think MLB is suddenly going to do it any different? Who is going to pay for the extra "umpire" and the equipment required for this system? I guarantee it won't be MLB, it will be the fans. It already costs a ridiculous amount to go to an MLB game, so we should add these costs so that we can get 1 more call right every 40 or so games?

This is what baseball is fighting. Time and cost. It's reality whether any of us like it or not. MLB should be asking why Welke didn't ask for help, not changing their stance on replay based on this 1 missed call.

Bum

Equipment? You mean buying a $450 tv once every 5 years per stadium?

Paying the extra ump? Well, do what hockey does. Have it all run through one office, say, the commissioners office. Have 5 guys on duty. You don't have to pay an extra guy per crew, but one extra guy every three crews.

As for the cost being passed on to us, maybe. But it isn't expensive to go to a baseball game. It costs as much to go to a game as it does to go to a movie, at least here in Cincinnati. The difference is, I can bring my own food and drink into the stadium with their permission. And the game generally lasts longer than a movie does.

[OldRightHander]

Baseball games aren't too long. They go by too fast.

[dougdirt]

The cost really has no bearing on this idea. Another umpire won't change the price of tickets.

You did hit the nail on the head that had Welke just called it right we would not be having this discussion. Instead of all these ideas that people want to try to make umpiring better lets just demand the ones on the field do it right so we won't have to deal with these other ideas.

I have been talking about using replay and Pitch F/X to call balls and strikes for two+ years now.

[George Anderson]

I have been talking about using replay and Pitch F/X to call balls and strikes for two+ years now.

LOL....Oh I know you have.

[smith288]

Big Ten does it well. They have a dude in the booth who reviews EVERY play. If they find an issue before the next play, they stop the game and tell the ref. Fix the problem and move on. Im not talking balls and strikes. But Welke type of issues.

This can be done the same way. It would be faster than a manager asking for a replay and would correct a TON of stupid calls these egos on the field make.

Baseball doesn't HAVE to be so dang subjective when there is 2012 technology rapping on the door.

[Bumstead]

Equipment? You mean buying a $450 tv once every 5 years per stadium?

Paying the extra ump? Well, do what hockey does. Have it all run through one office, say, the commissioners office. Have 5 guys on duty. You don't have to pay an extra guy per crew, but one extra guy every three crews.

As for the cost being passed on to us, maybe. But it isn't expensive to go to a baseball game. It costs as much to go to a game as it does to go to a movie, at least here in Cincinnati. The difference is, I can bring my own food and drink into the stadium with their permission. And the game generally lasts longer than a movie does.

You pay $100 just to walk into a movie? Eh, I like having umpires. Baseball is still the most tradition oriented sport left. I like that. There are so few missed calls that can't be corrected by holding the umpires accountable that I don't see much of a benefit. But again, that's just me. I really only got involved in this to discuss the umpiring to begin with.

Just for giggles:

Parking: $4 Newport Mall (yes, there are ways to take a bus, but I drive to the movie; I'll walk despite the fact that I park AT the theater).
Tickets: $25*3 = $75 (that's right field, not top dollar seating but not nosebleed either; views are pretty good from there; and I am leaving out the ticketmaster fees for whatever reason)

So basically $79 for 3 people (my family) to go to the Reds game...I live up by Chicago, but I will forego all those charges; my personal choice.

Movie: $12 *3 = $36....can sit in the best seats in the house in a seat that reclines and rocks and I have plenty of room for my legs in a temperature controlled climate...

I beg to differ on the cost of a baseball game vs the cost of a movie. And I don't live in a cheap area compared to Cincy...

Bum

[dougdirt]

You pay $100 just to walk into a movie? Eh, I like having umpires. Baseball is still the most tradition oriented sport left. I like that. There are so few missed calls that can't be corrected by holding the umpires accountable that I don't see much of a benefit. But again, that's just me. I really only got involved in this to discuss the umpiring to begin with.

Just for giggles:

Parking: $4 Newport Mall (yes, there are ways to take a bus, but I drive to the movie; I'll walk despite the fact that I park AT the theater).
Tickets: $25*3 = $75 (that's right field, not top dollar seating but not nosebleed either; views are pretty good from there; and I am leaving out the ticketmaster fees for whatever reason)

So basically $79 for 3 people (my family) to go to the Reds game...I live up by Chicago, but I will forego all those charges; my personal choice.

Movie: $12 *3 = $36....can sit in the best seats in the house in a seat that reclines and rocks and I have plenty of room for my legs in a temperature controlled climate...

I beg to differ on the cost of a baseball game vs the cost of a movie. And I don't live in a cheap area compared to Cincy...

Bum

The outfield seats are my favorite, but you can absolutely go to a baseball game cheaper than a movie. Yeah, you may not have the best seats, but you can get through the gates and sit in the level right behind home plate for $15 a ticket. Since I can bring my own food and drinks, it beats a $12 movie ticket and two drinks at the theatre. Parking is all dependent of where you go see a movie. You mentioned you live in Chicago. I once went and saw a movie downtown there once while visiting. Parking was $20 for 2 hours. What if I wanted to see a movie in Newport, the parking is still the same as it was for the Reds game to park there.

[Bumstead]

The outfield seats are my favorite, but you can absolutely go to a baseball game cheaper than a movie. Yeah, you may not have the best seats, but you can get through the gates and sit in the level right behind home plate for $15 a ticket. Since I can bring my own food and drinks, it beats a $12 movie ticket and two drinks at the theatre. Parking is all dependent of where you go see a movie. You mentioned you live in Chicago. I once went and saw a movie downtown there once while visiting. Parking was $20 for 2 hours. What if I wanted to see a movie in Newport, the parking is still the same as it was for the Reds game to park there.

I live near Chicago in Indiana...Valparaiso. Free parking just like monopoly. Just saying that it is expensive to take a family to a game, let alone multiple games. I rarely go to movies because I think the price is too high and I can just watch them later on TV or Netflix or whatever. I used to attend 5 cub games a year, just for fun, clearly not for baseball reasons; but, I did try to see the Reds when I could. Bleacher seats are now >$50 a ticket...I'm not paying that to go there.

Anyway, not to change the discussion. If they would institute some replay system that does not add 2+ minutes for each review then I wouldn't be totally against it. I just think that there really aren't enough missed calls that affect the games enough to justify the change. I think holding the umpires accountable for things like asking for help would be much more beneficial.

Enjoying the discussion!

Bum

[GoReds]

In the example given, how much time was the game extended because of the argument over the missed call? If a replay system is implemented, wouldn't it reduce the amount of time manager's spend arguing calls?

[fearofpopvol1]

Believe it or not, umpiring is pretty awesome now compared to what it used to be like. Just watch games from a few decades ago. It had to CLEARLY be a ball for a ball to be called. Otherwise, you could count on a strike being called.

That said, Welke is probably my least favorite umpire. Not a big fan.

[RedsManRick]

Name a replay system that doesn't slow down the game in any of the major sports.

Name another sport that has as much time between plays and proceeds at the pace of baseball -- to say nothing of the time is lost from the uncertainties created by the current process.

[Bumstead]

Name another sport that has as much time between plays and proceeds at the pace of baseball -- to say nothing of the time is lost from the uncertainties created by the current process.

Baseball is the most traditional sport left. I like it that way. I don't think a bad call every 40 games warrants replay and changing of how the game is umpired/managed.

NFL football players look a little lackluster during commercial breaks if you attend any games... :p

[dougdirt]

Baseball is the most traditional sport left. I like it that way. I don't think a bad call every 40 games warrants replay and changing of how the game is umpired/managed.

NFL football players look a little lackluster during commercial breaks if you attend any games... :p

Tell that to a team when it costs them a loss and that loss keeps them out of the playoffs.

[Bumstead]

Tell that to a team when it costs them a loss and that loss keeps them out of the playoffs.

When did that happen? Tell me one time where one call in one game made the entire difference as to whether they made the playoffs or not and then I will call shenanigans! :D It is very rare that any call by an umpire decides a game; I imagine that it is less than 1 call every 500 to 1000 games. That is worth replay? Not to me.

Bum

[cumberlandreds]

I like seeing the calls being correct. If you have the ability to get them right with technology then do it. MLB could have a replay official in the booth like football does. Specifically college football. They could buzz down to the crew chief if there is a close play at first to say they are reviewing it. My guess is that it wouldn't take one minute to determine if the call was correct and to overturn if need be. Base plays would be the easiest thing to replay and balls on the foul lines too. I would say most would not be overturned. I think they get it right most times.
A bad call in April could cost you a pennant just as easy as a bad call in September. That's the reason you need replay all the time.

[Roy Tucker]

I know umps have a well-defined protocol for who makes a call and how its handled. 99.5 percent of the time, it works well.

Seems to me that it can't be that hard to have a signal or something where an ump signify "I saw it clearly, the call was wrong". Then the crew chief calls a huddle, it gets discussed, and the right call is made. No replays, no satellite datalinks, no whiz-bang technologies, just common sense.

[George Anderson]

I know umps have a well-defined protocol for who makes a call and how its handled. 99.5 percent of the time, it works well.

Seems to me that it can't be that hard to have a signal or something where an ump signify "I saw it clearly, the call was wrong". Then the crew chief calls a huddle, it gets discussed, and the right call is made. No replays, no satellite datalinks, no whiz-bang technologies, just common sense.

I don't see that working without problems because lets say that scenario does play out and the umpires do huddle up and change the call. There is going to need to be an explanation to the coach just why the call was reversed. Lets just say the umps are honest and say the 3B ump overruled the HP ump on a play at the plate which likely would never happen but if it did, it is not going to go over to well.

[dougdirt]

I don't see that working without problems because lets say that scenario does play out and the umpires do huddle up and change the call. There is going to need to be an explanation to the coach just why the call was reversed. Lets just say the umps are honest and say the 3B ump overruled the HP ump on a play at the plate which likely would never happen but if it did, it is not going to go over to well.
Who cares if it goes over well? Get the freaking calls right and worry about someones feelings in therapy.

[Bumstead]

Who cares if it goes over well? Get the freaking calls right and worry about someones feelings in therapy.

lol...you should umpire baseball...The umpires know their responsibilities, it is up to the guy who made the call to ask for help. As a fellow umpire, one is not going to throw his fellow umpires under the bus. That is not going to happen, nor should it.

[bucksfan2]

I kinda go back and forth on replay. First of all I want the game done right, but I want it done in a reasonable way. I want a human calling balls and strikes. I want an ump who calls a high zone, a low zone, a tight zone, or loose zone. But like anything I want a consistant zone. If an ump has called a high strike all day long, then continue to call it. The only one ump who I think is horrid is CB Bucknor who has a moving strike zone from pitch to pitch.

In the call in question by Welke, its a horrid call based upon an ump being out of position. I can't really think of any situation where an 1st base ump should be in that position. It should have gone to a reveiw and the call reversed. In a previous thread where ball bounced off the top of the wall and a OF caught it, as soon as the ump made the out call the play was dead. In the end they got it right, as right as they could when using replay.

The issue I have with replay is it does slow the game down, often times the easiest calls take a couple of minutes to get right, and a lot of calls are difficult to see even in slow motion. The biggest beef I have with the NFL's system is I think it makes them call the game a little looser. They swallow the whistle and allow the play to progress a little further because there is replay. The last think I want is a MLB ump to have most questinable calls go "play on". In general the umps in baseball (sans CB Bucknor) get around 99% of the calls right or acceptable. And to be honest I am fine with that.

[Roy Tucker]

I don't see that working without problems because lets say that scenario does play out and the umpires do huddle up and change the call. There is going to need to be an explanation to the coach just why the call was reversed. Lets just say the umps are honest and say the 3B ump overruled the HP ump on a play at the plate which likely would never happen but if it did, it is not going to go over to well.

So if an overrule comes from the eye-in-the-sky, it will be better received?

[dougdirt]

lol...you should umpire baseball...The umpires know their responsibilities, it is up to the guy who made the call to ask for help. As a fellow umpire, one is not going to throw his fellow umpires under the bus. That is not going to happen, nor should it.

I would wind up fighting my fellow umpires then. Sorry, but if your job is to make the right call and you don't because 'your boss' said something different is flat out stupid.

[Bumstead]

I would wind up fighting my fellow umpires then. Sorry, but if your job is to make the right call and you don't because 'your boss' said something different is flat out stupid.

They are judgement calls...not everybody sees them the same. This one was obvious; they aren't all like that. Random over-riding of umpires calls is bad for the game. Umpires know when they need to ask for help. Welke knew, but he didn't ask; that's on him and he and the umpires association should be answering for that. One bad decision is not worth replay. IMHO

[dougdirt]

They are judgement calls...not everybody sees them the same. This one was obvious; they aren't all like that. Random over-riding of umpires calls is bad for the game. Umpires know when they need to ask for help. Welke knew, but he didn't ask; that's on him and he and the umpires association should be answering for that. One bad decision is not worth replay. IMHO

Again, replay booth. Guy in that booth watching the replay. It is so easy it borders on stupid that it isn't happening.

[George Anderson]

Who cares if it goes over well? Get the freaking calls right and worry about someones feelings in therapy.

It has nothing to do woth hurting anyones feelings or needing therapy. It has to do with your belief that an umpire 90 plus feet away from a play can and should overrule an umpire who is 5 feet away from a play.

It would be like a back judge in football calling offsides. No official is going to overrule another official when they are that far away because they would have to be 100% positive they are correct and in these instances it cannot be the case. Plus should an official do such an insane thing as to overrule another official in that situation, then watch because it will get real ugly real quick. It has nothing to do with feelings to needing therapy, it has to do with reality.

[George Anderson]

So if an overrule comes from the eye-in-the-sky, it will be better received?

As opposed to someone standing 90' away from a play??

You betcha!!

[dougdirt]

It has nothing to do woth hurting anyones feelings or needing therapy. It has to do with your belief that an umpire 90 plus feet away from a play can and should overrule an umpire who is 5 feet away from a play.

It would be like a back judge in football calling offsides. No official is going to overrule another official when they are that far away because they would have to be 100% positive they are correct and in these instances it cannot be the case. Plus should an official do such an insane thing as to overrule another official in that situation, then watch because it will get real ugly real quick. It has nothing to do with feelings to needing therapy, it has to do with reality.

It has everything to do with feelings because things wouldn't, as you say, get ugly, if someone overruled someone.

[George Anderson]

It has everything to do with feelings because things wouldn't, as you say, get ugly, if someone overruled someone.

Feelings have nothing to do with it. It has more to do with an umpire potentially looking really stupid. Seeing a 3B ump run in 90 plus feet to confer with the HP ump over a play at the plate and then decide to overrule him would look incredibly stupid. The part about hurting feelings or needing counseling or whatever after the fact is just an aside.

[dougdirt]

Feelings have nothing to do with it. It has more to do with an umpire potentially looking really stupid. Seeing a 3B ump run in 90 plus feet to confer with the HP ump over a play at the plate and then decide to overrule him would look incredibly stupid. The part about hurting feelings or needing counseling or whatever after the fact is just an aside.

If feelings weren't involved, who cares if the umpire looks stupid as long as the call was right?

[Bumstead]

It has everything to do with feelings because things wouldn't, as you say, get ugly, if someone overruled someone.

Umpires work together in crews and they are human. It has something to do with feelings and knowing that you are working with that guy the next game and the game after that. But, on the other hand, he is 5 feet from the play and you are at best 80 feet from the play as the HP umpire. Who most likely saw it best? Who are those watching going to think saw it best? If he doesn't ask for help, then he is comfortable with his call; I'm not over-riding him (talking judgement calls here, not rules related calls) and neither is any other umpire.

It's easy to get a license to do HS games. Get a license and work some games; read the rules, go to the meetings, meet the guys you will be working with and then tell me if you over-ruled any of them when they didn't ask for help. You aren't going to do it. It's his call, he is in position to make the call (or should be) and you are only watching in case he needs help. Do umpires miss calls? Yes. Is it a ridiculous amount of calls so as to change game outcomes and league standings? Absolutely not. Baseball umpires are probably the best in the major sports.

Bum

[dougdirt]

Umpires work together in crews and they are human. It has something to do with feelings and knowing that you are working with that guy the next game and the game after that. But, on the other hand, he is 5 feet from the play and you are at best 80 feet from the play as the HP umpire. Who most likely saw it best? Who are those watching going to think saw it best? If he doesn't ask for help, then he is comfortable with his call; I'm not over-riding him (talking judgement calls here, not rules related calls) and neither is any other umpire.

It's easy to get a license to do HS games. Get a license and work some games; read the rules, go to the meetings, meet the guys you will be working with and then tell me if you over-ruled any of them when they didn't ask for help. You aren't going to do it. It's his call, he is in position to make the call (or should be) and you are only watching in case he needs help. Do umpires miss calls? Yes. Is it a ridiculous amount of calls so as to change game outcomes and league standings? Absolutely not. Baseball umpires are probably the best in the major sports.

Bum

I will tell you right now, if I am positive that the other umpire missed a call, judgement or otherwise, I am going to overrule him. That is the kind of person I am. You said it yourself, I am only watching if he needs help. Well if he made the wrong call, then he needs help. Tell him. Either he will get over it or he won't. I could care less.

[Bumstead]

I will tell you right now, if I am positive that the other umpire missed a call, judgement or otherwise, I am going to overrule him. That is the kind of person I am. You said it yourself, I am only watching if he needs help. Well if he made the wrong call, then he needs help. Tell him. Either he will get over it or he won't. I could care less.

Invite me to your first few games. I want to watch. I have seen my partners make calls that from my view appeared incorrect, but they were right on top of the play and I was 90 feet away. From my perspective, they saw something that I didn't see and I imagine they got the call right. I haven't had any of my partners miss a play like Welke did and then not ask for help though. If he did, well, I'm still not over-ruling him but I will talk to him about it in our post-game meeting. Of course, I'm not on TV but still, I stand on my position and believe I am right to do so. I think any umpire worth his salt would handle it just like I wrote above. George?

Bum

[bucksfan2]

I will tell you right now, if I am positive that the other umpire missed a call, judgement or otherwise, I am going to overrule him. That is the kind of person I am. You said it yourself, I am only watching if he needs help. Well if he made the wrong call, then he needs help. Tell him. Either he will get over it or he won't. I could care less.

The rub is how will you know you are positive? The Ump is in the right position to make the call and 90 feet closer. It may be that what you "think" you see isn't exactly what happened.

[George Anderson]

I think any umpire worth his salt would handle it just like I wrote above. George?

Bum

Oh I bowed out when I was accused of not wanting to hurt the coaches feelings.

[Bumstead]

Oh I bowed out when I was accused of not hurting the coaches feelings.

haha...I am bailing soon. Can barely keep my head above water here! ;)

[dougdirt]

The rub is how will you know you are positive? The Ump is in the right position to make the call and 90 feet closer. It may be that what you "think" you see isn't exactly what happened.

Then we are going to talk it over. But the refusal to even talk it over because the guy didn't ask for help is dumb. This is like working on a paper with someone and your assistant finds a mistake, or thinks they have, but doesn't bring it to your attention because you didn't ask their help on that part of the work.

[camisadelgolf]

It's just a game. Let there be mental errors, and let people get their panties in a bunch about it. The human element is more entertaining, and it makes for some great stories.

[Roy Tucker]

As opposed to someone standing 90' away from a play??

You betcha!!

OK, that's fair. I've only just umped rec league games and there I was usually with a fellow kid ump. I used to tell them to make a call and then sell it. But if he had doubt, call time and come talk to me.

And actually, we don't know if any of the other umps saw the Welke play.

[The Operator]

It's just a game. Let there be mental errors, and let people get their panties in a bunch about it. The human element is more entertaining, and it makes for some great stories.The human element destroyed a perfect game not too long ago.

Balls and strikes are one thing, I'm cool with their being a human making those calls, so long as it's not CB Bucknor. But we have the technology to almost completely eradicate these boneheaded calls in the field and people just do not want it. I don't get it. So what if it adds even 10 or 15 minutes onto a game? I guess I'd rather leave the ballpark a few minutes late and know for sure that my team didn't get jobbed out of a win.

[The Operator]

Just for giggles:

Parking: $4 Newport Mall (yes, there are ways to take a bus, but I drive to the movie; I'll walk despite the fact that I park AT the theater).
Tickets: $25*3 = $75 (that's right field, not top dollar seating but not nosebleed either; views are pretty good from there; and I am leaving out the ticketmaster fees for whatever reason)

So basically $79 for 3 people (my family) to go to the Reds game...I live up by Chicago, but I will forego all those charges; my personal choice.

Movie: $12 *3 = $36....can sit in the best seats in the house in a seat that reclines and rocks and I have plenty of room for my legs in a temperature controlled climate...I think you should look into using StubHub from now on.

They may not be the best seats, but I've on more than one occasion bought tickets on there for around $1-$2 and the even more beautiful thing is there's only one service charge per order, not each ticket.

I payed for my girlfriend and I as well as another couple to go to last weekend's fleece blanket game and even with $10 parking I only had to drop $35 total. Maybe $40 if you count taking in a few 20-oz. pops.

Nobody, and I mean NOBODY, has to break the bank to go to a Reds game anymore. That's an old myth.

[kaldaniels]

I think you should look into using StubHub from now on.

They may not be the best seats, but I've on more than one occasion bought tickets on there for around $1-$2 and the even more beautiful thing is there's only one service charge per order, not each ticket.

I payed for my girlfriend and I as well as another couple to go to last weekend's fleece blanket game and even with $10 parking I only had to drop $35 total. Maybe $40 if you count taking in a few 20-oz. pops.

Nobody, and I mean NOBODY, has to break the bank to go to a Reds game anymore. That's an old myth.

Does stubhub have will call pickup for those of us wanting to snatch up a last minute deal?

[Vottomatic]

Top 3 worst call I've ever seen. Maybe THE WORST. Don't know how Welke still has a job.

[757690]

Does stubhub have will call pickup for those of us wanting to snatch up a last minute deal?

Many tickets are e-tickets, meaning you can buy them right before you leave for the game and print them out on your printer.

[DGullett35]

Alot of fans complain of the mistakes the umpires make and never give them credit for the correct calls they make. The way they handled the Heisey triple last night was how all questionable calls should be handled. They grouped together decided to check the replay and made a quick decision. More importantly it was the right call. Good job from last night Pirates-Reds umpire crew.

Just a thought however..The part of padding that Heisey hit was only like a 2 feet strip that was raised about 6 inches from the rest of the wall. I thought it was odd to have the wall constructed like that and for Heisey's luck he just had to hit that part of the wall..The rest of the wall in LF was the same height except for that little 2 foot section by the foul pole. It just seemed odd to me. O well just thought Id pass that along if any of you seen that.

[Brutus]

I will tell you right now, if I am positive that the other umpire missed a call, judgement or otherwise, I am going to overrule him. That is the kind of person I am. You said it yourself, I am only watching if he needs help. Well if he made the wrong call, then he needs help. Tell him. Either he will get over it or he won't. I could care less.

With that attitude, Doug, I promise you'd never have made it into the majors to begin with.

First, as a home plate umpire, it's not your call to make. Think about it logically, you're 90 feet away and the first base umpire is five feet away. Not only that, but you're running to backup the play, while he's perfectly stationary.

Even if you're sure of what you *think* you saw, you have no business over-ruling him.

[dougdirt]

With that attitude, Doug, I promise you'd never have made it into the majors to begin with.

First, as a home plate umpire, it's not your call to make. Think about it logically, you're 90 feet away and the first base umpire is five feet away. Not only that, but you're running to backup the play, while he's perfectly stationary.

Even if you're sure of what you *think* you saw, you have no business over-ruling him.

You know, except for the part where Helton was 4 feet off of the bag.

And I am sure I would never have made it into the Majors with that attitude. Still don't care. I have no want of being an ump. I just know that when someone is wrong and I know they are wrong, I tell them that.

[Brutus]

You know, except for the part where Helton was 4 feet off of the bag.

And I am sure I would never have made it into the Majors with that attitude. Still don't care. I have no want of being an ump. I just know that when someone is wrong and I know they are wrong, I tell them that.

But where do you draw the line? Because he was 4 feet off the bag? Three feet? Two feet? What about six inches?

How far does he have to be off the bag before you feel it's your duty to say "I'm right, you're wrong?"

[dougdirt]

But where do you draw the line? Because he was 4 feet off the bag? Three feet? Two feet? What about six inches?

How far does he have to be off the bag before you feel it's your duty to say "I'm right, you're wrong?"

When I am right and he is wrong.

[Brutus]

When I am right and he is wrong.

Except the first base umpire probably thought he was right. So what happens when you think you're right and it turns out you're wrong just like the first base umpire? I guarantee you with that attitude you'd be setting yourself and everyone up for snafus.

That's exactly why they don't do it that way.

It's not the home plate umpire's call nor should it be.

[dougdirt]

Except the first base umpire probably thought he was right. So what happens when you think you're right and it turns out you're wrong just like the first base umpire? I guarantee you with that attitude you'd be setting yourself and everyone up for snafus.

That's exactly why they don't do it that way.

It's not the home plate umpire's call nor should it be.

Then I am wrong. But I am not going to just not correct someone if I think they are wrong.

[Brutus]

Then I am wrong. But I am not going to just not correct someone if I think they are wrong.

You just said if you think you're right and they're wrong, you'd overrule them.

Which would be more embarrassing... the first base umpire getting a call wrong like yesterday, or a home plate umpire coming in and overruling a first base umpire on a call he was sure the first baseman pulled his foot, and it turns out, he didn't pull his foot.

Now, not only did the call get blown, but an umpire that had no business making the call from 30-50 feet away and sprinting, actually overruled the guy that was in position to make the call.

Again, this is why it's not done your way and why people having that attitude don't make it as umpires. It's a flawed approach to umpiring.

[dougdirt]

You just said if you think you're right and they're wrong, you'd overrule them.
We would certainly talk the situation over.



Again, this is why it's not done your way and why people having that attitude don't make it as umpires. It's a flawed approach to umpiring.

Then go with the booth replay like I suggested pages back. It is easy, ready to go today if they wanted it to be and solves all the problems with these kinds of issues.

[Brutus]

We would certainly talk the situation over.



Then go with the booth replay like I suggested pages back. It is easy, ready to go today if they wanted it to be and solves all the problems with these kinds of issues.

I don't necessarily have a problem with instant replay, but I'd want there to be limitations and a penalty for challenging a play and getting it wrong. I don't think managers should have open season on requesting a challenge.

[dougdirt]

I don't necessarily have a problem with instant replay, but I'd want there to be limitations and a penalty for challenging a play and getting it wrong. I don't think managers should have open season on requesting a challenge.

Don't let managers challenge plays. There is enough time between each play to have the guy in the booth look at it. If he needs another look to be sure, he hits a button and the home plate ump steps out for another 20 seconds. They get the call right and he makes it. It isn't rocket surgery.

[BCubb2003]

I think ballparks should be designed so that home runs at least are easy to call. It shouldn't be to hard to put some kind of railing or surface along the top of the wall so that when the ball hits there, it's obvious.

[The Operator]

Does stubhub have will call pickup for those of us wanting to snatch up a last minute deal?As 757690 alluded, a good majority of tickets on there are available for instant download. Most times I don't end up printing them out until I'm ready to walk out the door so it's not too unlike will call in that way.

E-Tickets don't quite have the same feel and cool factor as regular tickets but for the money, I'll go with 'em almost every time. I wanna get to as many games as possible and that's one of the big factors in why I can go as much as I do at times.