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WVRed
05-11-2012, 10:43 PM
Getting close to the 1000 post mark, so thought it was time to go with a new thread.

Just saw where Sean Woods was just named coach at Morehead State. Hopefully he has better success than Kyle Macy did and can continue what Donnie Tyndall brought to the program.

jmac
05-12-2012, 07:29 PM
Bennett picks UNLV and Jefferson to announce on tuesday. While AJ is a top notch type player, I was hoping for a big body type banger on the inside to compliment our other recruits. Hopefully Cal will come up with something.

WVRed
05-13-2012, 10:34 PM
Julius Mayes commits. 6'2 combo guard from Wright State who will be eligible to play immediately as a senior. Adds three point shooting and veteran leadership.

Sent from my SCH-I500 using Tapatalk 2

cincy jacket
05-13-2012, 11:01 PM
Bennett picks UNLV and Jefferson to announce on tuesday. While AJ is a top notch type player, I was hoping for a big body type banger on the inside to compliment our other recruits. Hopefully Cal will come up with something.

I agree with the need of getting a bigger body type guy for the post for next year. I wonder how Cal goes about filling that role though. Seems to be no "One and done" type guys left and with a loaded 2013 and 2014 class I wonder if there is a hesitancy to offer a guy who might fill a scholarship spot for people in that class.

The way things are shaping up the 2013 UK class could just be the most ridiculous class ever. Also Wiggins in 2014 might be the best prospect since LeBron. Not as good as LeBron, but the best prospect we have seen in High School since him.

Scrap Irony
05-13-2012, 11:33 PM
Calipari seems to enjoy short benches-- he's used a seven-, six-, and seven-man rotation the past three years at Kentucky.

That would mean the rotation of:

Harrow PG
Goodwin SG
Mays G
Pothress SF/PF
Wiltjer PF
Noel C
Cauley-Stein C
Hood F

It's not as talented a roster as last season or the Wall/ Bledsoe/ Patterson/ Cousins monster, but it's good enough to win the SEC if all things shake out properly.

What's interesting about his squad, IMO, is that it might be best as a frenetic, full-court press style team. Harrow, Goodwin, Poythress, and Wiltjer all run fantastically well. The press would help the team shooting percentage, as only Harrow, Wiltjer, and Mays shoot well at all from long distance.

This team could go Final Four again, but, more likely, is Calipari's first "rough" season at UK.

They might lose 8-10 games.

WMR
05-13-2012, 11:51 PM
College basketball is going to be WAY down next year. The "best" teams heading into next season are UL and IU? I'll take my chances.

dabvu2498
05-13-2012, 11:54 PM
College basketball is going to be WAY down next year. The "best" teams heading into next season are UL and IU? I'll take my chances.

Next year is the year a "mid major" wins it all.

Assembly Hall
05-14-2012, 12:08 AM
College basketball is going to be WAY down next year. The "best" teams heading into next season are UL and IU? I'll take my chances.


LOL......Way down next year? I dont see it that way. There are several teams out there that didnt lose much if anything.

Assembly Hall
05-14-2012, 12:09 AM
Next year is the year a "mid major" wins it all.

Really? What are the odds in Vegas?

WMR
05-14-2012, 12:16 AM
LOL......Way down next year? I dont see it that way. There are several teams out there that didnt lose much if anything.

All of the experts disagree with you but your opinion is pretty typical for an Indiana fan I would guess.

Let's look at UL: Lost to South Florida on Senior night... Several head scratching results throughout the season... Fans wanted to run Pitino off before the run in BE Tournament and NCAAs.

IU: Lost some absolutely horrible games away from Assembly Hall. Nebraska? Really? Hoosiers need to show they can win without home cooking.

If these are your "best" teams, it is a down year for hoops.

This is why they play the games...

Could easily see a mid major winning it next year like Dab said; a senior-laden mid major especially.

WMR
05-14-2012, 12:18 AM
Getting Julius Mays was absolutely huge at this point. A senior who will provide leadership and can absolutely stroke it from 3. Desperately needed another sure-fire 3 pt shooter to go along with Kwilt.

Also, there's an excellent chance that Andrew Wiggins reclassifies to 2013. He loves UK. It is a two team race for Wiggins between UK and Florida State. Both of his parents were athletes at FSU.

Scrap Irony
05-14-2012, 12:35 AM
LOL......Way down next year? I dont see it that way. There are several teams out there that didnt lose much if anything.

If you don't have much to begin with, is it all that impressive to keep it?

IU's team is good, no doubt. In a normal year, it'd be top ten, IMO, not vying for the top pre-season spot in the land. Same for Louisville (who overachieved and benefitted from a weak bracket in getting to the Final Four last season).

Who's behind those two, though? Nobody in the SEC. Kentucky is a shell of last season's national champion. Missouri lost three top scorers. Florida lost Beal. Maybe Tennessee comes on. Maybe not.

The Big 10 lost a ton of good players. Perhaps only Michigan looks to have restocked rather than rebuilt. I'd count OSU here, but the losses of Buford and Sullinger with no replacements will hurt more than many Buckeye fans think, IMO.

In the Big 12, Kansas lost their two top players. Maybe Texas finds a way to win something, but do you really trust Rick Barnes to deliver anything beyond recruits?

Syracuse lost three starters in the Big East. Maybe Notre Dame has something cooking in South Bend, but whatever it is will be a step slow come tournament time. Only Louisville looks halfway decent at this point.

In the west, UCLA is young and talented. That hasn't worked for Ben Howland for a decade now. Arizona's inmates are running the asylum, and Gonzaga lost Sacre (who I really like as an NBA sleeper big).

In the ACC, UNC re-tooled three-quarters of its roster, and Duke's struggles recruiting are beginning to show on its roster. NC State might make some noise, but that's a Mark Gotfried-coached team-- he's done less with more his entire coaching career.

Expect to see a lot of "You can't count out a team coached by..." articles between now and December of next season. When sportswriters have absolutely no clue what can happen, that's the cliche that gets hammered.

WMR
05-14-2012, 12:39 AM
Expect to see a lot of "You can't count out a team coached by..." articles between now and December of next season. When sportswriters have absolutely no clue what can happen, that's the cliche that gets hammered.

:lol: That's classic, Scrap.

dabvu2498
05-14-2012, 12:53 AM
LOL......Way down next year? I dont see it that way. There are several teams out there that didnt lose much if anything.

And how good were those teams this year?

VCU is one of those teams that doesn't lose much. I'd expect to see them high in the rankings early and often. Creighton, Butler (adding Rotnei Clark), San Diego State all look to be ready (and more experienced) for a run.

Look at those early top 25 projections for next year and see if any of those teams stop you and make you think about how good they should be based on what they have coming back.

Yes, even Louisville and IU are reaches, if you will. As Wily points out, they were inconsistent last year.

dabvu2498
05-14-2012, 12:56 AM
:lol: That's classic, Scrap.

And true!

The one guy that I'd say the cliche is true about is Izzo. If you gave Izzo a blind draw 5th grade rec league team, I bet he'd have em holding trophies at the end of the year.

dabvu2498
05-14-2012, 01:01 AM
Also, and I hate to be the one who says this, but if Julius Mays has to play 10+ mpg at Kentucky, they're not going to be very good. He was at the correct level for his skill set.

WMR
05-14-2012, 01:19 AM
Gotta disagree with you on this one, dab. Cal would not have brought him in if he didn't believe he could play and help the team.

He shot 42% from 3 pt range last season...

Keep in mind he is joining a team with a much, much higher talent level than the teams he played on at Wright State. Defenses will not focus on him like they did at Wright State and I expect him to get a ton of open looks. At the very least, he will force defenses to stretch the floor which will make it much easier for our other elite athletes to operate and attack the rim.

Scrap Irony
05-14-2012, 01:47 AM
Also, and I hate to be the one who says this, but if Julius Mays has to play 10+ mpg at Kentucky, they're not going to be very good. He was at the correct level for his skill set.

I agree, dab, assuming Mays doesn't have some hidden skill not yet seen. He has to be better, though, than Polson and the other flotsam behind Goodwin and Harrow.

This would be a good year for Jon Hood to discover his shooting touch. When he came out of high school, his reputation was as a dead-eye shooter with a quick release. So far his career has seen more injuries (one) than impact moments.

Mays is at least a body to practice against.

dabvu2498
05-14-2012, 02:58 AM
Cal would not have brought him in if he didn't believe he could play and help the team.

Stacey Poole agrees with you. ;)

This is one thing that gets old. Not every guy that UK brings in has to be a big time player. Some of their guys might not even be all that good on occasion. And that's OK. Guys filling a roster spot is OK. Guys being good team guys and good practice players is OK. The donors that give all that money to endow scholarships like to see kids get that money instead of empty seats on the bench. :)


He shot 42% from 3 pt range last season...

And 34% the two years he played in a real conference. And this goes to another point... This will be his 3rd college team in 5 years. Pretty impressive!!!



Keep in mind he is joining a team with a much, much higher talent level than the teams he played on at Wright State. Defenses will not focus on him like they did at Wright State and I expect him to get a ton of open looks. At the very least, he will force defenses to stretch the floor which will make it much easier for our other elite athletes to operate and attack the rim.

He'll also be guarded by guys 2+" bigger and a bunch more athletic than dudes that were guarding him in the Horizon League. The couple times I saw Wright State this year, he didn't seem to be able to get around anyone.

Just my opinion.

Assembly Hall
05-14-2012, 08:06 AM
All of the experts disagree with you but your opinion is pretty typical for an Indiana fan I would guess.

Let's look at UL: Lost to South Florida on Senior night... Several head scratching results throughout the season... Fans wanted to run Pitino off before the run in BE Tournament and NCAAs.

IU: Lost some absolutely horrible games away from Assembly Hall. Nebraska? Really? Hoosiers need to show they can win without home cooking.

If these are your "best" teams, it is a down year for hoops.

This is why they play the games...

Could easily see a mid major winning it next year like Dab said; a senior-laden mid major especially.

It has nothing to do with me being an IU fan. If you want to see the definition of "blind bias" just take a look in the mirror.

I personally feel that the college game has been down for quite a while now. Last year was not a spectacular year period. I expect to see the same next season.

IU and Louisville are legit teams aside from any of their "struggles" last season. Notre Dame returns every starter, NC State could be next year's Mizzou. Michigan, Michigan St, and Ohio State lost some key guys but have solid foundations.

I do think there are a couple of Mid-Majors that will play into the mix. Creighton will be tough with their stud. Butler was pretty dang good last year, let's see how they do playing in the A-10.

New York Red
05-14-2012, 02:31 PM
Looks like it's going to be Kentucky @ Georgetown in the SEC/Big East Challenge. The schedule isn't complete yet, but as of now our OOC slate will include:

vs Duke (neutral site)
@ Louisville
@ Georgetown

We'll also play Maryland in the first ever game at the Nets new arena in Brooklyn.

cumberlandreds
05-14-2012, 03:02 PM
Looks like it's going to be Kentucky @ Georgetown in the SEC/Big East Challenge. The schedule isn't complete yet, but as of now our OOC slate will include:

vs Duke (neutral site)
@ Louisville
@ Georgetown

We'll also play Maryland in the first ever game at the Nets new arena in Brooklyn.

A couple of mid-majors that will be on the schedule will be Portland and Samford. They have three year deals with those two schools.
It would be great if the GTown game works out. I might have to try to get tickets to that one since they will be in my neck of the woods.

Scrap Irony
05-14-2012, 03:03 PM
I personally feel that the college game has been down for quite a while now. Last year was not a spectacular year period. I expect to see the same next season.

Nonsense. You judge teams on their historical impact, how they'd match up with previous champs, and the talent they send to the NBA.

Historically, Kentucky is among the most talented teams that has ever been assembled. Same with North Carolina. Syracuse lost only three games all year-- none of them at full strength.

Kentucky, Kansas, North Carolina, Ohio State, Syracuse, Missouri-- all had exceptionally good teams with few holes. Even your own IU squad improved enough by the end of the season to be intriguing.

The talent going to the NBA is staggering, too. And it's not just Anthony Davis at the top. Impact draftees dot the NBA landscape. When John Henson, a defensive impact player with an impossible to guard jump hook with either hand is projected to go 20th overall, you know it's a deep draft. Harrison Barnes was a top two or three pick two years ago, if not number one; this year, he might break the top five. Maybe. Tyler Zeller would be a top ten pick any other year-- this season, he's an also-ran at number 14 or 15, barely in the lottery.

Add in guys like Vandy's Jenkins, Ezeli, and Taylor at the end of the first round, and you've got legitimate NBA starters pretty much 1-25 in the draft.

If you don't like the talent, let's just look at past NCAA champs and compare them to teams from 2012.

Eight to ten 2012 teams beat the 2011 UConn champ in a seven-game series, despite the hot-shooting Kemba Walker. Same with Duke the year before.

cumberlandreds
05-14-2012, 03:08 PM
A lot of sophmores that stayed around for an extra year because of the projected strike/lockout are leaving for the pros. Add to that the usual amount of freshman and that will lead to a big down year next season for college basketball. It won't mean that it will not be exciting. There's a very good chance that a true cinderalla could win the NCAA's next season. Next year could be the year for a George Mason,VCU or Butler to win it.

RiverRat13
05-14-2012, 04:09 PM
Eight to ten 2012 teams beat the 2011 UConn champ in a seven-game series, despite the hot-shooting Kemba Walker. Same with Duke the year before.

Maybe '11 UConn, but not '10 Duke. '12 UK beats '10 Duke, but '12 UNC without Marshall does not, '12 Syracuse without Melo does not, '12 OSU would struggle against '10 Duke's size up front and loses, and '12 Kansas has been called by its own fanbase the second-least talented team in the Bill Self era.

'12 looked like it would be a fantastic season for college basketball, but once the UNC injuries piled up and Melo's grades factored into the discussion it became a pretty disappointing season overall IMO (outside of a really, really good UK title team). OSU was noticeably worse in '12 than '11 and yet made the Final Four. The same can be said for Kansas. '12 UConn fell apart. The '12 CBB season just didn't live up to my expectations at all.

WMR
05-14-2012, 05:44 PM
Stacey Poole agrees with you. ;)

This is one thing that gets old. Not every guy that UK brings in has to be a big time player. Some of their guys might not even be all that good on occasion. And that's OK. Guys filling a roster spot is OK. Guys being good team guys and good practice players is OK. The donors that give all that money to endow scholarships like to see kids get that money instead of empty seats on the bench. :)



And 34% the two years he played in a real conference. And this goes to another point... This will be his 3rd college team in 5 years. Pretty impressive!!!




He'll also be guarded by guys 2+" bigger and a bunch more athletic than dudes that were guarding him in the Horizon League. The couple times I saw Wright State this year, he didn't seem to be able to get around anyone.

Just my opinion.

I never said Mays is going to be a big time player.

I said UK desperately needed a shooter and they got a shooter. He hit 42% from 3 last season. Discredit that all you want, but it's a fact. As a basketball player, he should be at least hitting his absolute peak.

Purdue and Matt Painter wanted him badly (Painter did not recruit him out of H.S., btw). Matt Painter apparently thought he could play in the B1G.

Assembly Hall
05-14-2012, 07:35 PM
Maybe '11 UConn, but not '10 Duke. '12 UK beats '10 Duke, but '12 UNC without Marshall does not, '12 Syracuse without Melo does not, '12 OSU would struggle against '10 Duke's size up front and loses, and '12 Kansas has been called by its own fanbase the second-least talented team in the Bill Self era.

'12 looked like it would be a fantastic season for college basketball, but once the UNC injuries piled up and Melo's grades factored into the discussion it became a pretty disappointing season overall IMO (outside of a really, really good UK title team). OSU was noticeably worse in '12 than '11 and yet made the Final Four. The same can be said for Kansas. '12 UConn fell apart. The '12 CBB season just didn't live up to my expectations at all.

Thank you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Assembly Hall
05-14-2012, 07:52 PM
Nonsense. You judge teams on their historical impact, how they'd match up with previous champs, and the talent they send to the NBA.

Historically, Kentucky is among the most talented teams that has ever been assembled. Same with North Carolina. Syracuse lost only three games all year-- none of them at full strength.

Kentucky, Kansas, North Carolina, Ohio State, Syracuse, Missouri-- all had exceptionally good teams with few holes. Even your own IU squad improved enough by the end of the season to be intriguing.

The talent going to the NBA is staggering, too. And it's not just Anthony Davis at the top. Impact draftees dot the NBA landscape. When John Henson, a defensive impact player with an impossible to guard jump hook with either hand is projected to go 20th overall, you know it's a deep draft. Harrison Barnes was a top two or three pick two years ago, if not number one; this year, he might break the top five. Maybe. Tyler Zeller would be a top ten pick any other year-- this season, he's an also-ran at number 14 or 15, barely in the lottery.

Add in guys like Vandy's Jenkins, Ezeli, and Taylor at the end of the first round, and you've got legitimate NBA starters pretty much 1-25 in the draft.

If you don't like the talent, let's just look at past NCAA champs and compare them to teams from 2012.

Eight to ten 2012 teams beat the 2011 UConn champ in a seven-game series, despite the hot-shooting Kemba Walker. Same with Duke the year before.

I am not comparing teams of today to teams of yesteryear. The fact of the matter is, guys leaving early has impacted the whole scope of the college game. I could care less about the NBA landscape.

I want to see all the guys return to UK and defend their title. I dont like it when the powerhouses have to rebuild because the whole starting 5 left early for the NBA.

I aint saying that I dont enjoy watching the sport. I am just saying that the game is down do to early entries. It just doesnt affect the big schools.....mid-majors are affected as well. Geez, last year Butler should have had Shelvin Mack and Gordon Heyward on the court.

To say the game isnt affected is nonsense. Hell, the NBA game isnt as good as it was 20 years ago. I wonder why?

New York Red
05-14-2012, 08:02 PM
It would be great if the GTown game works out. I might have to try to get tickets to that one since they will be in my neck of the woods.
I should have worded that differently. The UK/Georgetown game is definitely on the schedule. The only thing left to work out is the date.

New York Red
05-14-2012, 08:12 PM
The 2012 season gave us two of the most talented teams to ever step on a college basketball court, and if not for Marshall's injury we might have seen one of the great championship games ever. That won't be the case next year. If IU, Louisville and a totally rebuilt UK team are indeed the three best teams in the country, then it's going to be a very down year for college basketball, talent-wise. IU had zero quality wins away from home, Louisville had one quality win the entire season, and UK will definitely be a notch or two below the squad that won it all this year.

Look around the country -- just about every top program is going to be down compared to their usual strength. UNC, Duke, Kansas, UConn, etc. They will still be ranked, because someone has to fill those spots, but they will be down nonetheless.

Louisville is the perfect indicator of where college basketball will be in 2013. They were so bad for much of the regular season, there were serious rumblings about getting rid of Pitino. They fell completely out of the Top 25 after being ranked 4th at one time (though undeservedly). They lost two of their best scorers (from a team that struggled to score), and they have very little coming in next year. Yet they are preseason Top 3? That's crazy.

dabvu2498
05-14-2012, 08:44 PM
Louisville had one quality win the entire season

No way. I'll give you that they were inconsistent, but they beat some good teams, particularly in their BE and NCAA tourney runs.

Marquette, Notre Dame, Cincinnati, Davidson, New Mexico, Michigan State, and Florida is a pretty nice 7 game stretch.

I think that run at least showed what they were (are?) capable of.



They lost two of their best scorers

Did Russ Smith leave??? As far as I know, Kuric and Swopshire is all they lost. Assuming that's right, they return roughly 77 percent of their scoring from last year.

No doubt, they're not great. But they are a "known." We do have some idea about what they can do. I also think Dieng and Behanan will both be interesting players to watch next year. And of course, maybe we finally learn who the real Peyton Siva is. That's the crucial aspect. If he plays like he did the last month of the season, they could be very tough to deal with.

New York Red
05-14-2012, 08:50 PM
No way. I'll give you that they were inconsistent, but they beat some good teams, particularly in their BE and NCAA tourney runs.

Marquette, Notre Dame, Cincinnati, Davidson, New Mexico, Michigan State, and Florida is a pretty nice 7 game stretch.

I think that run at least showed what they were (are?) capable of.




Did Russ Smith leave??? As far as I know, Kuric and Swopshire is all they lost. Assuming that's right, they return roughly 77 percent of their scoring from last year.

No doubt, they're not great. But they are a "known." We do have some idea about what they can do. I also think Dieng and Behanan will both be interesting players to watch next year. And of course, maybe we finally learn who the real Peyton Siva is. That's the crucial aspect. If he plays like he did the last month of the season, they could be very tough to deal with.
I forgot about the Florida game. They lost Chris Smith also.

joshnky
05-14-2012, 09:02 PM
I forgot about the Florida game. They lost Chris Smith also.

Smith and kuric will be replaced in the starting lineup by blackshear (injured), Hancock (transfer) or Russ Smith. The team will be better next year with those upgrades. IF, Siva plays to potential and Behanon and Dieng continue to develop they will be very good. One thing they showed in the tourney last year is that with their defense they can hang with anyone. Add a little offensive improvement and you can see where the ranking is justified.

Assembly Hall
05-14-2012, 09:02 PM
The 2012 season gave us two of the most talented teams to ever step on a college basketball court, and if not for Marshall's injury we might have seen one of the great championship games ever. That won't be the case next year. If IU, Louisville and a totally rebuilt UK team are indeed the three best teams in the country, then it's going to be a very down year for college basketball, talent-wise. IU had zero quality wins away from home, Louisville had one quality win the entire season, and UK will definitely be a notch or two below the squad that won it all this year.

Look around the country -- just about every top program is going to be down compared to their usual strength. UNC, Duke, Kansas, UConn, etc. They will still be ranked, because someone has to fill those spots, but they will be down nonetheless.

Louisville is the perfect indicator of where college basketball will be in 2013. They were so bad for much of the regular season, there were serious rumblings about getting rid of Pitino. They fell completely out of the Top 25 after being ranked 4th at one time (though undeservedly). They lost two of their best scorers (from a team that struggled to score), and they have very little coming in next year. Yet they are preseason Top 3? That's crazy.

IU had no quality wins away from home? How about at NC State and at Purdue? Notre Dame on a neutral floor? Now how is that zero? :confused:

New York Red
05-14-2012, 09:13 PM
Smith and kuric will be replaced in the starting lineup by blackshear (injured), Hancock (transfer) or Russ Smith. The team will be better next year with those upgrades. IF, Siva plays to potential and Behanon and Dieng continue to develop they will be very good. One thing they showed in the tourney last year is that with their defense they can hang with anyone. Add a little offensive improvement and you can see where the ranking is justified.
The ranking is justified because it's going to be a very down year for college basketball. I don't see how anyone could look at that Louisville team and think for even a moment they are a preseason #1 caliber squad. They will basically be the same team that tumbled their way completely out of the Top 25 this year, before getting hot against an obviously down Big East in their post-season tournament.

Look at the preseason top two teams last year -- UNC and UK. Then look at what might be the preseason top two next year -- IU and Louisville. That's a huge drop-off talent-wise. You're talking about two teams with a combined 10 first round NBA picks last year, versus two teams with maybe a total of one first round draft pick next year. Talent-wise, there's no comparison.

New York Red
05-14-2012, 09:38 PM
IU had no quality wins away from home? How about at NC State and at Purdue? Notre Dame on a neutral floor? Now how is that zero? :confused:
Sorry, man, I guess my anti-IU bias was showing there. :)

Assembly Hall
05-14-2012, 10:20 PM
Sorry, man, I guess my anti-IU bias was showing there. :)

LOL.....at least your honest!!!!!!! :beerme: BTW.......UK only played one true road game last year outside of conference. Just sayin'.;)

dabvu2498
05-14-2012, 10:30 PM
I forgot about the Florida game. They lost Chris Smith also.

Forgot about him. But as josh mentioned, I don't think either of those two guys aren't replaceable.

LexRedsFan
05-15-2012, 01:11 AM
I dont like it when the powerhouses have to rebuild because the whole starting 5 left early for the NBA.

We don't have to rebuild, we just have to reload...:laugh:

Assembly Hall
05-15-2012, 07:18 AM
We don't have to rebuild, we just have to reload...:laugh:

LOL......I like the terminology!!!!!

RiverRat13
05-15-2012, 09:55 AM
The 2012 season gave us two of the most talented teams to ever step on a college basketball court, and if not for Marshall's injury we might have seen one of the great championship games ever.

Even with a healthy Kendall Marshall the '12 UNC team would be at best the fourth most talented UNC team of the Williams era. It was far from one of the most talented teams "to ever step on a college basketball court".

I agree that '13 won't be very good at all. It is definitely a year where a team like UK could gel down the stretch and make a Final Four. But I totally disagree that '12 was some sort of outstanding year.

New York Red
05-15-2012, 10:16 AM
Even with a healthy Kendall Marshall the '12 UNC team would be at best the fourth most talented UNC team of the Williams era. It was far from one of the most talented teams "to ever step on a college basketball court".

I agree that '13 won't be very good at all. It is definitely a year where a team like UK could gel down the stretch and make a Final Four. But I totally disagree that '12 was some sort of outstanding year.
I wasn't suggesting '12 was an outstanding year for college basketball talent overall. Just pointing out that '13 will definitely be a down year. Possibly as down as any I can remember.

New York Red
05-15-2012, 10:18 AM
Michael Porter, of all people, arrested on sex charges? Wow, didn't see that coming.

Scrap Irony
05-15-2012, 04:48 PM
Even with a healthy Kendall Marshall the '12 UNC team would be at best the fourth most talented UNC team of the Williams era. It was far from one of the most talented teams "to ever step on a college basketball court".

Talent is in the eye of the beholder, I suppose.

I see Kendall Marshall as a Doc Rivers/ Mark Jackson clone, capable of giving 10/10 just about every night.

I see John Henson as a 15/10 guy with 3 blocks per game.

I see Tyler Zeller as an All Star C as soon as his second season, capable of going 17/10 every night.

I see Harrison Barnes as a 17/8/4 SF with a couple All Star nominations.

All four project, IMO, as NBA starters.

No Carolina team has done that under Williams.

New York Red
05-15-2012, 05:58 PM
Amile Jefferson to Duke.

Assembly Hall
05-15-2012, 06:04 PM
Talent is in the eye of the beholder, I suppose.

I see Kendall Marshall as a Doc Rivers/ Mark Jackson clone, capable of giving 10/10 just about every night.

I see John Henson as a 15/10 guy with 3 blocks per game.

I see Tyler Zeller as an All Star C as soon as his second season, capable of going 17/10 every night.

I see Harrison Barnes as a 17/8/4 SF with a couple All Star nominations.

All four project, IMO, as NBA starters.

No Carolina team has done that under Williams.

Ya cant do that Scrap. The college game does not translate into the pros or visa versa. They have nothing to do with each other.

Anyone can be Nostradamus........I would have told you when they came out that Wayman Tisdale, Ralph Sampson, Christian Laetner,Glenn Robinson, and Calbert Cheaney were destined for great things in the NBA. Glad I didnt bet the farm on it. Look at all the talent Duke has had and won championships with........how are all those guys doing in the NBA?

I really expect to see next season kind of mirror this one. The only difference being that the top 2 teams being talked about(IU and Louisville) have teams within their conference that will give them alot of trouble. Lousiville just might have the upper hand because of that extremely unbalanced Big East schedule. Even as an IU fan I look forward to seeing UK and I think they will be in the mix. I see NC State and Michigan being contenders as well. And Notre Dame has all starters returning.

WVRed
05-15-2012, 06:17 PM
Michael Porter, of all people, arrested on sex charges? Wow, didn't see that coming.

Pretty disgusting if it proves to be true. And this is on top of what is going on with Richie Farmer.

Michael Porter, on the court, was one of my all time least favorite players. I don't think he was ever fully capable of playing in the SEC, but just got a pass because Tubby knew his dad (coach at the same HS that produced Chuck Hayes).

Off the court, I heard he was a good Christian kid who was married before he graduated, has a little girl, etc. So if the story proves to be true, that pretty much eradicates that. I hope no court in the Commonwealth cuts him any slack just because he played at UK.

LexRedsFan
05-15-2012, 07:02 PM
And here I was thinking Michael Porter's worst offense was being terrible at basketball.

New York Red
05-15-2012, 07:12 PM
Looks like the case involves a teen bible study group in which Porter was the teacher. He was 21 at the time and the girl in question was 14, with the offense being oral sex. I'll save judgement until the court decides the case, but if authorities had enough evidence to bring charges against him, it doesn't look good. This is why I don't blindly support these kids just because they wore my school's colors. None of them.

Assembly Hall
05-15-2012, 07:40 PM
Looks like the case involves a teen bible study group in which Porter was the teacher. He was 21 at the time and the girl in question was 14, with the offense being oral sex. I'll save judgement until the court decides the case, but if authorities had enough evidence to bring charges against him, it doesn't look good. This is why I don't blindly support these kids just because they wore my school's colors. None of them.

Very well said. And a sad deal to say the least.

Scrap Irony
05-15-2012, 10:19 PM
Ya cant do that Scrap. The college game does not translate into the pros or visa versa. They have nothing to do with each other.

Talent translates anywhere.

Years from now, people will look back on this draft much like the 1984 draft. Deep, talented, and prepared to play at a high level very quickly.

Assembly Hall
05-15-2012, 10:33 PM
Talent translates anywhere.

Years from now, people will look back on this draft much like the 1984 draft. Deep, talented, and prepared to play at a high level very quickly.

Hmmmmmmm....I dont think so. But that is my opinion.

New York Red
05-15-2012, 11:23 PM
According to NBA scouts, this current draft is loaded. Next years? Not so much. It's going to be a down year talent-wise for college basketball, any way you look at it. We'll have an Indiana team that isn't even close to being as talented as a lot of past IU teams, a Louisville team that isn't even close to being as talented as a lot of past Louisville teams, and a UK team that will be probably two notches below the 2012 UK team -- yet these three teams could start the season ranked 1-2-3 in the country? Seriously? I love that the "triangle" of Kentucky/Louisville/Indiana will possibly start the season 1, 2 and 3, but neither will have the kind of power teams they've had at times in the past. Most years, these three teams would be lucky to crack the Top Ten.

WVRed
05-16-2012, 12:28 AM
Hmmmmmmm....I dont think so. But that is my opinion.

It's kinda silly to debate this from either angle. None of these kids have laced up for the NBA yet. We haven't even had the draft yet!

This could be the greatest class since 1984 or 2003, or it could be a class littered with busts similar to the 2000 class. We just don't know.

Assembly Hall
05-16-2012, 10:06 AM
It's kinda silly to debate this from either angle. None of these kids have laced up for the NBA yet. We haven't even had the draft yet!

This could be the greatest class since 1984 or 2003, or it could be a class littered with busts similar to the 2000 class. We just don't know.

The point is a lot of you are trying to compare how good a college team or college basketball is by how many guys go to the NBA or go high in the draft. Saying that this is a deep draft somehow equates into this past college season was a good one. I dont see it that way.

I said it before and I will say it again. The college game is down period. Has been for twenty years. It is all do to the kids jumping to the NBA early. I know the money is dang near impossible to pass up but the college game does suffer. If everyone would have passed on the NBA, next season would have been fantastic across the board. We would be talking about a final four consisting of UK, IU, Louisville, Ohio St., Kansas, Florida, Syracuse, Michigan, North Carolina, Duke, and NC St. Now with the defections the game comes crashing down.

How does UK lose its top 6 players and still be considered a Top 5 school heading into next season just based on the unproven recruits they have coming in? Pretty simple. The college game is down.

With all that being said I am gonna still watch it and enjoy it.

Scrap Irony
05-16-2012, 01:17 PM
There's a difference between a good college basketball season and one in which a lot of talent surfaces. The latter is easily analyzed, though it takes years. The former is completely subjective.

The talent displayed this season in college basketball was among the best the sport has seen in college-- period.

Assembly Hall
05-16-2012, 06:08 PM
There's a difference between a good college basketball season and one in which a lot of talent surfaces. The latter is easily analyzed, though it takes years. The former is completely subjective.

The talent displayed this season in college basketball was among the best the sport has seen in college-- period.

That last sentence cracks me up! So the college basketball season is measured by how you perceive talent?

Too many of you fellas are looking at college basketball through the eyes of NBA scouts. Thank God UK isnt a football school, because a lot of you guys would hand the Heisman to who you thought would be the best NFL player.

Scrap Irony
05-16-2012, 06:21 PM
Didn't you say the talent level was down in college basketball?

How do you judge talent, Assembly?

WMR
05-16-2012, 06:40 PM
102-90 :D

In case anyone has forgotten... ;)

(did any mementos from that game make their way into "The Shrine"? :lol: )

RiverRat13
05-16-2012, 08:29 PM
Talent is in the eye of the beholder, I suppose.

I see Kendall Marshall as a Doc Rivers/ Mark Jackson clone, capable of giving 10/10 just about every night.

I see John Henson as a 15/10 guy with 3 blocks per game.

I see Tyler Zeller as an All Star C as soon as his second season, capable of going 17/10 every night.

I see Harrison Barnes as a 17/8/4 SF with a couple All Star nominations.

All four project, IMO, as NBA starters.

No Carolina team has done that under Williams.

Kendall Marshall is the 3rd best PG of the Williams era. He has a lot of trouble finishing at the rim and cannot keep anyone in front of him. Best passer of the Williams era, but nowhere near the best PG. If this wasn't a terrible year for PGs he'd still be in Chapel Hill.

John Henson will never average 15 ppg in the NBA. Never. I'd easily take Marvin Williams or Brandan Wright over him coming out of college. He'll be a decent defender in the NBA but there's no way he averages 15 ppg.

Zeller is not a good post defender at all. I can see him scoring a little because he is skilled but the All-Star prediction is out there in my opinion. If any NBA GM thought that was possible, he'd be the second pick behind Davis.

Barnes may be the one guy who is a better pro than college player, but overall he was a pretty big disappointment in his time at Chapel Hill.

The '05, '08 and '09 UNC teams were all better than the '12 team.

Assembly Hall
05-16-2012, 08:34 PM
Didn't you say the talent level was down in college basketball?

How do you judge talent, Assembly?

I never said that Scrap. I said the game was down and has been.

Talent will always be in the college game. The problem is that these days the talent doesnt spend 3-4 years in it. There's a reason why the mid-majors present problems to the big boys these days.........they stay in school for 4 years.

I dont really judge talent. I watch teams and how they play. These days it seems like the good teams arent together for very long because players leave for the NBA. Most guys here seem to think that how many guys you land in the NBA defines your program and therefore determines the landscape of college basketball. I am just saying that I dont believe in that ideology.

Assembly Hall
05-16-2012, 08:38 PM
102-90 :D

In case anyone has forgotten... ;)

(did any mementos from that game make their way into "The Shrine"? :lol: )

Seasons over dude. Congrats again on a title. Feel free to quit stroking your trophy and spraying K-Y jelly at us IU fans at anytime!!!!!!!!;)

Assembly Hall
05-16-2012, 08:44 PM
Kendall Marshall is the 3rd best PG of the Williams era. He has a lot of trouble finishing at the rim and cannot keep anyone in front of him. Best passer of the Williams era, but nowhere near the best PG. If this wasn't a terrible year for PGs he'd still be in Chapel Hill.

John Henson will never average 15 ppg in the NBA. Never. I'd easily take Marvin Williams or Brandan Wright over him coming out of college. He'll be a decent defender in the NBA but there's no way he averages 15 ppg.

Zeller is not a good post defender at all. I can see him scoring a little because he is skilled but the All-Star prediction is out there in my opinion. If any NBA GM thought that was possible, he'd be the second pick behind Davis.

Barnes may be the one guy who is a better pro than college player, but overall he was a pretty big disappointment in his time at Chapel Hill.

The '05, '08 and '09 UNC teams were all better than the '12 team.

Good stuff RR.......I especially like that comment about Barnes. Seems like like people forget he was pre-season All-American even before he put on a Tar Heel jersey.

New York Red
05-16-2012, 08:54 PM
I think IU fans refuse to admit the 2013 season will be a down year because, in their eyes, admitting that would in some way diminish their lofty preseason ranking. I've noticed Louisville fans are talking the same way. Everyone else seems to have no problem admitting the talent level will be down next year.

WMR
05-16-2012, 09:15 PM
Seasons over dude. Congrats again on a title. Feel free to quit stroking your trophy and spraying K-Y jelly at us IU fans at anytime!!!!!!!!;)

hehehe, just giving you a hard time, AH.

As far as I'm concerned, this season isn't over till first regular season tip-off in November!! Lots of time left to celebrate with my Louisville and IU friends. :D

WMR
05-16-2012, 09:16 PM
I think IU fans refuse to admit the 2013 season will be a down year because, in their eyes, admitting that would in some way diminish their lofty preseason ranking. I've noticed Louisville fans are talking the same way. Everyone else seems to have no problem admitting the talent level will be down next year.

It's natural to react that way, IMO.

In their eyes, people saying next year will be a down year for college bball is downgrading their team.

...

Technically, I guess it is. :lol: But it's also true.

Assembly Hall
05-16-2012, 09:27 PM
hehehe, just giving you a hard time, AH.

As far as I'm concerned, this season isn't over till first regular season tip-off in November!! Lots of time left to celebrate with my Louisville and IU friends. :D

LOL......I would be the same way in your shoes!!!!!!!!!:beerme:

Assembly Hall
05-16-2012, 09:30 PM
I think IU fans refuse to admit the 2013 season will be a down year because, in their eyes, admitting that would in some way diminish their lofty preseason ranking. I've noticed Louisville fans are talking the same way. Everyone else seems to have no problem admitting the talent level will be down next year.

Saying that is hog wash. A championship is a championship, whether it is a down year does not dimish the accomplishment what so ever. If that comment was directed at me, you dont have a clue.

New York Red
05-16-2012, 09:48 PM
Saying that is hog wash. A championship is a championship, whether it is a down year does not dimish the accomplishment what so ever. If that comment was directed at me, you dont have a clue.
It was directed at IU and UofL fans in general, as they seem to be the only ones who don't think '13 will be a very down year for college basketball. All the so-called experts and talking heads seem to feel that way, as do fans of other schools.

Revering4Blue
05-16-2012, 11:26 PM
NC State might make some noise, but that's a Mark Gotfried-coached team-- he's done less with more his entire coaching career.

Like knocking off top-seeded Stanford in the '04 NCAA 2nd Round?

Like reaching the Sweet 16 with a team that wasn't projected to even reach the NCAAs in, by your own admission, a loaded NCAA from a talent standpoint?

Thread derailment over.

Revering4Blue
05-16-2012, 11:31 PM
A championship is a championship, whether it is a down year does not dimish the accomplishment what so ever

Agreed, but, IMHO, it isn't worth arguing.

That stated, I agree with the prospects of a Mid-major, or a surprise BCS school, pulling it out in the end.

Revering4Blue
05-16-2012, 11:57 PM
Kendall Marshall is the 3rd best PG of the Williams era. He has a lot of trouble finishing at the rim and cannot keep anyone in front of him. Best passer of the Williams era, but nowhere near the best PG. If this wasn't a terrible year for PGs he'd still be in Chapel Hill.

John Henson will never average 15 ppg in the NBA. Never. I'd easily take Marvin Williams or Brandan Wright over him coming out of college. He'll be a decent defender in the NBA but there's no way he averages 15 ppg.

Zeller is not a good post defender at all. I can see him scoring a little because he is skilled but the All-Star prediction is out there in my opinion. If any NBA GM thought that was possible, he'd be the second pick behind Davis.

Barnes may be the one guy who is a better pro than college player, but overall he was a pretty big disappointment in his time at Chapel Hill.

The '05, '08 and '09 UNC teams were all better than the '12 team.

Couldn't be more accurate.

FWIW, I share the general opinion that the '09 Tar Heels were the last "Great" NCAA team preceding the '12 Wildcats. No offense to Duke and UConn fans.

Assembly Hall
05-17-2012, 01:09 PM
It was directed at IU and UofL fans in general, as they seem to be the only ones who don't think '13 will be a very down year for college basketball. All the so-called experts and talking heads seem to feel that way, as do fans of other schools.

Once again thinking about how many guys are gonna be in the NBA draft and how deep the draft is. How plainer do I need to say it? The game has been down for quite awhile. 20 years at least. The college game would improve if the players didnt leave early. Hell, the college basketball "talking heads" will tell you that. Quit analizing college basketball via the NBA draft projections. I dont want to sound harsh, but geez what more do I need to state. It seems as the UK fans need to solidify their championship with how many guys are going pro. I dont care. You won. Great season. So be it. Next year will be the same as last. Guys will leave and programs will rebuild.......I am gonna get off of here before I blow a gasket. Enjoyed the discussion.

New York Red
05-17-2012, 03:07 PM
If the talent level doesn't determine the level of basketball, what does? What am I missing here? As for the game being down for the last 20 years, I don't see that at all. There's been a bunch of great players and great teams over the past 20 years, as recently as UK this past season. The great players don't stay as long, but whether they stay one year, two years or three, they're immediately replaced by more great players.

Some years are better than others, and occasionally there are down years. 2013 is definitely one of those down years, talent-wise, both individually and collectively. If IU, UofL and UK make up the preseason top three, it will probably be the weakest preseason top three of my lifetime. However, it in no way diminishes a national championship though. I don't know where that argument came from.

Assembly Hall
05-17-2012, 04:32 PM
You are basing the college basketball talent level on how that talent gets drafted in the NBA. How is 2013 gonna be a down year by your standards? What the NBA scouts have to say about the projected early entries? Once again, if everybody would have stayed in school, next year would be a marquee year. The cycle keeps happening. 2012 was a down year regardless of how the draft goes. What is your judgement on the talent level if all those UK boys are flops in the NBA?

Scrap Irony
05-17-2012, 07:38 PM
If "all those UK boys" flop, wouldn't the talent level have to be readjusted according to those flops?

I know it's subjective, but I think college basketball was phenomenal this past season. There were great teams, great stories, and great games. You won't find a better college game than the Kentucky-IU Sweet 16 game. Unless you saw the UK- UNC matchup in December. The first UK/ IU game was good too, as was the UNC-Duke game in which Rivers hit the last second bomb from 20 feet. Syracuse played two great games-- one against Notre Dame and the other against Wisconsin.

All but the UNC-Duke game were OOC. None of these mention the best game, IMO, of the season-- Kansas' comeback over Mizzou in overtime.

There were great shooters, great defenders, and, yes, great teams in college basketball last season. No amount of "back-in-my-day" poo-poohing will make that any less true.

The athleticism of an Anthony Davis is awe-inspiring, and I'm fairly certain Uwe Blab-- four year player or not-- couldn't hold his jock.

New York Red
05-17-2012, 07:48 PM
You are basing the college basketball talent level on how that talent gets drafted in the NBA. How is 2013 gonna be a down year by your standards? What the NBA scouts have to say about the projected early entries? Once again, if everybody would have stayed in school, next year would be a marquee year. The cycle keeps happening. 2012 was a down year regardless of how the draft goes. What is your judgement on the talent level if all those UK boys are flops in the NBA?
Whether or not UK players become stars or flops in the NBA has nothing to do with my point. A lot of great college players have gone on to have less than stellar NBA careers, and in many cases didn't even stick in the NBA.

There were three teams in college basketball who were head and shoulders above everyone else, talent-wise. Kentucky, North Carolina and Syracuse. That was the consensus opinion of pretty much everyone last year. It was probably the most talented UK team I've seen in my lifetime, and arguably the greatest defensive team college basketball has ever seen. After those three teams, the rest of the country was pretty blah. You yourself claim that 2012 was a down year.

In 2013 there won't be three teams that strong. The top three could be an IU team that's not even close to being as strong as a lot of IU teams I've watched over the years, a Louisville team that isn't even close to being as strong as a lot of UofL teams I've seen in the past, and a UK team that will almost certainly be a notch or two below the 2012 version. IU wasn't even ranked to start last season, UofL wasn't even ranked as recently as February, and UK is a complete unknown commodity entering the '13 season.

Sorry, but that's a pretty weak top three. 2013 will be 2012 without the strong UK, UNC and SU teams. So if you considered 2012 a down year, how can you say 2013 won't be? That doesn't even make sense.

Scrap Irony
05-17-2012, 07:49 PM
How is 2013 gonna be a down year by your standards?

Early indications are that next season's draft is going to be among the worst of the past 20 years.

There are hopes that Zeller comes out. (Not likely.) Noel and Muhamed look promising, but are freshmen.

Beyond that? Picking's are extremely slim.

McDermott, everyone's pre-season POY favorite, looks more like Adam Morrison than Larry Bird. Chase Benahan at UofL is being talked up as an almost sure-fire lottery selection. He's a 6'6" power forward who can't hit an open 15-footer to save his life. Olapido at IU is another talented, but extremely raw kid being touted as All-American fare. Nate Wolters is another possible All-American. Know anything about him?

Basically, almost anyone who could have turned pro did. Them' that stayed isn't as good as them's that left.

WVRed
05-17-2012, 11:13 PM
Can't remember if this was mentioned earlier in this thread or not, but Andrew Wiggins could possibly reclassify to 2013.

If he plays at Huntington Prep next season I might go to Marietta College and watch a game if they play there again.

Assembly Hall
05-18-2012, 08:30 AM
Whether or not UK players become stars or flops in the NBA has nothing to do with my point. A lot of great college players have gone on to have less than stellar NBA careers, and in many cases didn't even stick in the NBA.

There were three teams in college basketball who were head and shoulders above everyone else, talent-wise. Kentucky, North Carolina and Syracuse. That was the consensus opinion of pretty much everyone last year. It was probably the most talented UK team I've seen in my lifetime, and arguably the greatest defensive team college basketball has ever seen. After those three teams, the rest of the country was pretty blah. You yourself claim that 2012 was a down year.

In 2013 there won't be three teams that strong. The top three could be an IU team that's not even close to being as strong as a lot of IU teams I've watched over the years, a Louisville team that isn't even close to being as strong as a lot of UofL teams I've seen in the past, and a UK team that will almost certainly be a notch or two below the 2012 version. IU wasn't even ranked to start last season, UofL wasn't even ranked as recently as February, and UK is a complete unknown commodity entering the '13 season.

Sorry, but that's a pretty weak top three. 2013 will be 2012 without the strong UK, UNC and SU teams. So if you considered 2012 a down year, how can you say 2013 won't be? That doesn't even make sense.

I agree with a lot of what you said. I never said 2013 wouldnt be. I asked for the reasons why some of you are saying it was going to be down.

Assembly Hall
05-18-2012, 08:39 AM
Early indications are that next season's draft is going to be among the worst of the past 20 years.

There are hopes that Zeller comes out. (Not likely.) Noel and Muhamed look promising, but are freshmen.

Beyond that? Picking's are extremely slim.

McDermott, everyone's pre-season POY favorite, looks more like Adam Morrison than Larry Bird. Chase Benahan at UofL is being talked up as an almost sure-fire lottery selection. He's a 6'6" power forward who can't hit an open 15-footer to save his life. Olapido at IU is another talented, but extremely raw kid being touted as All-American fare. Nate Wolters is another possible All-American. Know anything about him?

Basically, almost anyone who could have turned pro did. Them' that stayed isn't as good as them's that left.

Thanks for the reply Scrap. So you base the college talent level on the NBA draft? I dont agree with that, but if we all thought alike it would be a boring world!!!!

Scrap Irony
05-18-2012, 09:45 AM
The only way I know to judge talent is when it plays other talent. Since we know the NBA has the most talented players in the world, that's the barometer.

If Anthony Davis makes the Olympic Team, comes into the league, dominates, makes multiple All-Star games, and generally becomes a Kevin Garnett/ Tim Duncan guy, you can bet he has a ton of talent.

It's not the draft itself, but how they'll play against those guys already in the professional league.

If Thomas Robinson outperforms his expectations, wouldn't you see the need to reclassify his talent level? Wouldn't you bump him up a notch or three on your personal rankings? Shouldn't the same go with Andre Drummond, Fab Melo, Jeremy Lamb, Doron Lamb, and all of those early entrant guys?

It's certainly not boring to me.

Assembly Hall
05-18-2012, 10:26 AM
LOL......sometimes the college game doesnt translate to the NBA. There have been several talented players at the college level whose games didnt work in the NBA. The college is game is down because all the college talent leaves for the next level. Whether they succeed or not at the next level doesnt take away from what they done in college or what their talents were at college level. Basing the college game on how players go in the draft makes no sense to me. Saying this is a deep draft in no way means the college game was spectacular.

There have been alot of steller college b-ball teams in the past. My '76 Hoosiers have been tabbed one of the greatest NCAA teams of all-time. That starting 5, was less than outstanding in the NBA. Were they a great team? Yes. Were they great players? Yes, at the college level.

Scrap, I loved your Uwe Blab reference. I would have loved to see Davis try to defend a hook shot. And I would have loved to have seen Davis try to hold Sam Bowie or Mel Turpin's jock-strap.

Scrap Irony
05-18-2012, 12:51 PM
Are you really saying Davis is a lesser player than Blab, Turpin, and Bowie?

Wow.

You are stuck in that era.

Assembly Hall
05-19-2012, 04:27 AM
Are you really saying Davis is a lesser player than Blab, Turpin, and Bowie?

Wow.

You are stuck in that era.

LOL .....no I am not stuck in that era. You brought up the Blab reference. And may I remind you that Sam Bowie was the overall #2 selection in the draft ahead of Michael Jordan.

Scrap Irony
05-19-2012, 11:23 AM
I think Sam Bowie was among the most talented and athletic players of his era-- before his injuries at the University of Kentucky. He could have ushered in an era (along with Arvydas Sabonis) of great-passing big men similar to Bill Walton.

All three had injuries that limited their effectiveness.

That said, the Sam Bowie who was drafted number two by the Blazers couldn't hold a candle to the Anthony Davis of today.

Both he and Mel Turpin prove my point, BTW. Both were considerd great college players. Bowie wasn't bad at all; Turpin was a product of the Joe B. Hall system. Good college player-- not all that talented. (Or at least not talented enough to carry an extra 75-100 lbs. on his 6'11" frame.)

Assembly Hall
05-19-2012, 01:29 PM
I proved no point of yours. You keep wanting to base the college game as to how they perform at the next level. I am saying it doesnt matter. Wayman Tisdale and Ralph Sampson dominated the college game. How many all-star appearances between the two? Ralph went #1 over-all, and Wayman #2. Right now all we know about Davis is that he is a dominating college player and a talented one at that. College basketball will be down because guys with his college basketball talent leave early for the NBA.......and it happens across the board and has for 20 years. This dicussion started over whether the game is down or not. The NBA draft seems to be the consensus amongst a few of the UK fans as to whether it is up or down. I am just saying it aint so. Look at what Bilas and others are saying about the state of college basketball. I want guys to stay 3 years and mature both physically and mentally. You fans at UK have had it pretty good since Cal arrived there, Carolina has done pretty good as well. My beloved Hoosiers just might be walking down the same path. But the college game would be better if Davis stayed, Jones stayed, Teague stayed, Lamb stayed etc.......

Scrap Irony
05-19-2012, 06:26 PM
Your claim, correct me if I'm wrong, is that the college game is less than it was-- that it's talent level is watered down. If that's not the case, I apologize for misinterpreting you.

If it is, your claim is flawed. Tisdale is ranked among the top 350 NBA players of all time and had a career average of more than 15 points per game despite being sidelined with diabetes and bum knees for most of the decade he was good.

I'd call that a pretty outstanding career myself.

Sampson is considered among the top 150 NBA players of all time and also averaged 15 points per game despite leg and knee injuries. He's a basketball Hall of Famer to boot.

Both were truly outstanding players, long-time NBA starters who deserve accolades.

Were they as good-- as talented-- as many believed? Probably not, largely due to injuries. Both were in college systems that fed them the ball and both were able to take advantage of gifts others did not possess (height and bulk). I'd also add that both got quite a few calls in college that they didn't get in the NBA and that they played lower to the rim or with fewer moves than comtemporaries.

We also can't overlook the great play of others at that era. Tisdale had Larry Bird to compare to, as well as McHale, Dr. J, Barkley, Bernard King, Dominique Wilkins-- and that's only forwards in the East. It'd be pretty hard to crack that forward lineup to make an All Star game, yes? Too, Sampson wasn't even the best center on his own team-- Olajuwon was. That said, Olajuwon is one of the three or four best centers to ever play the game, so Sampson's numbers would be negated a bit. But he's not going to make many All Star games either, not with Olajuwon, Robinson, Abdul-Jabbar, Issel, and others in the West.

If you're keeping score at home, eight of those players are among the NBA's 50 Greatest, a massive number.

Lastly, if you want to argue this only on logic-- since almost every talking head across the sports world is talking about how watered down the talent is going to be in 2013, it must be watered down from something above it, yes? A - B = C and all that.

Too, those same talking heads wrote column after column about the high talent level in basketball in 2012.

Everyone can't be biased, can they?

If you'd like to show me a column or three that shows differently, I'd love to see who wrote them.

Revering4Blue
05-19-2012, 06:56 PM
ESPN's Chad Ford just posted an interesting tidbit about Terrence Jones. Ford comps his well-rounded game with Lamar Odom's game. Per Ford:


I think he was surrounded by so much talent at Kentucky that people just don't get how special a player he can be

Speaking of comps, I'm not so sure that Davis doesn't comp with Olajuwon, as some have suggested, especially if you believe, as I do, that A.O would have been just as effective as a PF in the NBA as a C.

As for Sampson, there are many who blame Bill Fitch for ruining Ralph Sampson by playing him at PF, contributing to knee problems. Olajuwan was a much better athlete than Sampson was and better equipped to deal with the Tom Chambers and Terry Cummings of the world. Sampson was much more effective in the pivot, and IMHO, had he remained there, he would have at least come close to reaching the expectations of him as he entered the NBA.

Razor Shines
05-19-2012, 07:33 PM
ESPN's Chad Ford just posted an interesting tidbit about Terrence Jones. Ford comps his well-rounded game with Lamar Odom's game. Per Ford:






That is devastating. He's gonna have to work really hard to dispel that comp....no one plans on being married to an over-weight reality TV star.

New York Red
05-19-2012, 08:14 PM
I think Sam Bowie was among the most talented and athletic players of his era-- before his injuries at the University of Kentucky. He could have ushered in an era (along with Arvydas Sabonis) of great-passing big men similar to Bill Walton.

All three had injuries that limited their effectiveness.

That said, the Sam Bowie who was drafted number two by the Blazers couldn't hold a candle to the Anthony Davis of today.

Both he and Mel Turpin prove my point, BTW. Both were considerd great college players. Bowie wasn't bad at all; Turpin was a product of the Joe B. Hall system. Good college player-- not all that talented. (Or at least not talented enough to carry an extra 75-100 lbs. on his 6'11" frame.)
Sam Bowie is one of my all-time favorite UK players. Melvin Turpin was a high school friend and teammate of mine, and a classmate of mine at UK for three years -- so my opinion of him goes without saying.

Having said that, neither had anywhere close to the complete skill set Anthony Davis has. Before his injuries, Bowie and Ralph Sampson were ushering in an entirely new era of big men. Their combination of length and athleticism was something we hadn't really seen much of before (other than Wilt). If not for the injuries, Bowie may have become one of the greatest big men ever, but his numerous leg problems curtailed that career. He was never the same after the first one. Turpin was good around the basket, and even had a good shot out to 15 or 16 feet. But that was pretty much the extent of his game, and he never could stay in shape after he reached the NBA.

Davis is on another level. He needs to put on some weight, which he will do, but otherwise his game is perfectly suited for the NBA. As great as he was as a college freshman, he was just scratching the surface of his potential. It might not happen immediately, but he will become a star in the NBA. The fact that he's also a fantastic person is just icing on the cake. Probably the most humble great Wildcat player I've seen. Also had a 3.7 GPA his last semester at UK. He's the complete package, no doubt.

Assembly Hall
05-19-2012, 09:44 PM
Once again Scrap, I dont dispute the talent today. I started off by saying the college game is down directly for guys leaving for the NBA. How many times do I have to say it? I could care less what happens at the next level. It is the college game we are talking about. No?

Scrap Irony
05-20-2012, 04:50 PM
If the college game is down, how is it down?

Skill? The numbers don't support that at all.

Coaching? Again, the best coaches in basketball history are here right now.

Team togetherness? You'll have to show me numbers on that one.

You pointed earlier to IU's great teams of the mid-70s. Not one of those teams would sniff 20 wins in today's game. Defenses are far better, athletes are more athletic, coaches are better-- the whole game is better.

Revering4Blue
05-20-2012, 07:06 PM
If the college game is down, how is it down?

Well, one can certainly make the case that compared with the 90's, even though players could skip college then and head to the NBA, it is, at least from the standpoint of the number of quality contenders at the top.

Just off the top of my head, Cases in point:

1991 UNLV.

1993 Michigan.

1999 Duke

All failed to win the Championship, but can one really suggest with a straight face that any of the three would not beat the '10 Blue Devils, '11 Huskies, and have a much better chance of knocking off the '12 Wildcats than any other '12 healthy team?

Can Wildcats fans suggest with a straight face that, compared with the '12 Wildcats, the '96 Wildcats were not the superior team, awesome as Davis is/was?

It's difficult to quantify, but it's certainly debatable, no?

It's also difficult, if not impossible, to compare pre-three point shot, no shot clock era teams to present rule teams. Although, some teams from the previous era may actually benefit from today's rules--the Alcindor and Walton UCLA and Elvin Hayes/Don Chaney Houston teams come to mind.

Assembly Hall
05-20-2012, 07:42 PM
If the college game is down, how is it down?

Skill? The numbers don't support that at all.

Coaching? Again, the best coaches in basketball history are here right now.

Team togetherness? You'll have to show me numbers on that one.

You pointed earlier to IU's great teams of the mid-70s. Not one of those teams would sniff 20 wins in today's game. Defenses are far better, athletes are more athletic, coaches are better-- the whole game is better.

Dude you are so far out there I dont know what to say.

Skill? Numbers? What are you talking about?

Coaching? I imagine that John Wooden, Adolph Rupp, Bob Knight, Denny Crum, and Dean Smith would take a little exception to your comments.

Team togetherness? What the heck is that?

To say that the IU teams of 75 or 76 not sniffing 20 wins today is like saying that UK's team in 78 wouldnt win 10. Everyone of the starters on IU's 76 NCAA championship team was drafted in the 1st round.

Assembly Hall
05-20-2012, 07:48 PM
Well, one can certainly make the case that compared with the 90's, even though players could skip college then and head to the NBA, it is, at least from the standpoint of the number of quality contenders at the top.

Just off the top of my head, Cases in point:

1991 UNLV.

1993 Michigan.

1999 Duke

All failed to win the Championship, but can one really suggest with a straight face that any of the three would not beat the '10 Blue Devils, '11 Huskies, and have a much better chance of knocking off the '12 Wildcats than any other '12 healthy team?

Can Wildcats fans suggest with a straight face that, compared with the '12 Wildcats, the '96 Wildcats were not the superior team, awesome as Davis is/was?

It's difficult to quantify, but it's certainly debatable, no?

It's also difficult, if not impossible, to compare pre-three point shot, no shot clock era teams to present rule teams. Although, some teams from the previous era may actually benefit from today's rules--the Alcindor and Walton UCLA and Elvin Hayes/Don Chaney Houston teams come to mind.

Thanks Revering! According to Scrap's theories I would imagine the '82 UNC championship team would be the greatest college team of all-time based on the number of NBA championships they won.......after they played college basketball.

Scrap Irony
05-20-2012, 08:31 PM
Why not answer my question rather than rag on my opinion?

It would go a long way to add to discussion rather than, y'know, be that guy.

Scrap Irony
05-20-2012, 08:34 PM
Well, one can certainly make the case that compared with the 90's, even though players could skip college then and head to the NBA, it is, at least from the standpoint of the number of quality contenders at the top.

Just off the top of my head, Cases in point:

1991 UNLV.

1993 Michigan.

1999 Duke

All failed to win the Championship, but can one really suggest with a straight face that any of the three would not beat the '10 Blue Devils, '11 Huskies, and have a much better chance of knocking off the '12 Wildcats than any other '12 healthy team?

Can Wildcats fans suggest with a straight face that, compared with the '12 Wildcats, the '96 Wildcats were not the superior team, awesome as Davis is/was?

It's difficult to quantify, but it's certainly debatable, no?

It's also difficult, if not impossible, to compare pre-three point shot, no shot clock era teams to present rule teams. Although, some teams from the previous era may actually benefit from today's rules--the Alcindor and Walton UCLA and Elvin Hayes/Don Chaney Houston teams come to mind.

I think the '12 Kentucky team was among three extremely talented teams this season, and all three compare favorably with the UNLV, Michigan, and especially the Duke team of the '90s. I think this season's UNC squad is going to eventually be looked at as one of those that lost its title because of injuries or fate-- but that their talent level is among the best CBB has seen.

It's impossible, as you say, to quanitfy, but this year's teams were outstanding.

RiverRat13
05-20-2012, 09:06 PM
I think this season's UNC squad is going to eventually be looked at as one of those that lost its title because of injuries or fate-- but that their talent level is among the best CBB has seen.


I hate to keep talking about UNC on a UK thread, but this simply isn't so. This was the third worst offensive team of the Williams era at 1.15 points/possession. The two that were worse? 2011 and 2010. This was not a talented offensive group compared to what Roy usually has to offer. But they were really good defensively with Henson, right? They come in as just the fourth best defensive team giving up .886 points/possession. As I said and most UNC fans who watch 20-30 Carolina games a year will agree, this year's group was at best Roy's fourth best team. Heck, when I went back and checked kempom, I had forgotten how good that '07 team really was. Using analytics, I could argue that they were Roy's fifth best team at UNC. They did not shoot the ball well at all, for all of their size they did not get to the line all that well (and when they got there they didn't shoot FT very well) and despite playing the passing lanes defensively they did not turn the other team over very well.

The 2012 Tar Heels were just not that good.

Assembly Hall
05-20-2012, 09:19 PM
Why not answer my question rather than rag on my opinion?

It would go a long way to add to discussion rather than, y'know, be that guy.

I simply dont know what your questions are. My stance is the college game is down. I aint ragging on your opinion. But you keep questioning mine. I have stated my points over and over. You seem to be of the mindset of the next level. I am talking the college game. How many times do I have to say I dont care about the next level? We are talking college here. You talk about playing the best in the world. We are talking the college game here. All else is irrelevant.

Assembly Hall
05-20-2012, 09:21 PM
I think the '12 Kentucky team was among three extremely talented teams this season, and all three compare favorably with the UNLV, Michigan, and especially the Duke team of the '90s. I think this season's UNC squad is going to eventually be looked at as one of those that lost its title because of injuries or fate-- but that their talent level is among the best CBB has seen.

It's impossible, as you say, to quanitfy, but this year's teams were outstanding.

LOL..........no they werent.

Assembly Hall
05-20-2012, 09:35 PM
I hate to keep talking about UNC on a UK thread, but this simply isn't so. This was the third worst offensive team of the Williams era at 1.15 points/possession. The two that were worse? 2011 and 2010. This was not a talented offensive group compared to what Roy usually has to offer. But they were really good defensively with Henson, right? They come in as just the fourth best defensive team giving up .886 points/possession. As I said and most UNC fans who watch 20-30 Carolina games a year will agree, this year's group was at best Roy's fourth best team. Heck, when I went back and checked kempom, I had forgotten how good that '07 team really was. Using analytics, I could argue that they were Roy's fifth best team at UNC. They did not shoot the ball well at all, for all of their size they did not get to the line all that well (and when they got there they didn't shoot FT very well) and despite playing the passing lanes defensively they did not turn the other team over very well.

The 2012 Tar Heels were just not that good.


RiverRat.......your points are well taken by this IU fan. And I agree completely. But the "Bible" of college basketball was wrote in Lexington. Us on this site must accept that. Anthony Davis is a stud. Terrence Jones is the next coming of Dennis Rodman. Jeff Teague is like Mark Jackson. MKG is Michael Jordan re-incarnated due to some Buddhist ritual. The college game is at its all time high because of UK. We aint got a chance. But the start of a new season will change that. The game will once again be down, but enjoyable and hopefully the basketball GODS will cast a message. THOU SHALT NOT QUESTION ANY UK'S FANS OPINION. I did my best, but I guess I will be cast below. I am done on this topic and will try to focus on the Reds.....if I can get the bluriness out of my eyes.

Revering4Blue
05-20-2012, 10:22 PM
Amile Jefferson's decision to go to Duke means Kentucky will go after Montrezl Harrell and then likely close 2012 recruiting

https://twitter.com/#!/KySportsRadio/status/202489949918998528]

New York Red
05-20-2012, 10:25 PM
RiverRat.......your points are well taken by this IU fan. And I agree completely. But the "Bible" of college basketball was wrote in Lexington. Us on this site must accept that. Anthony Davis is a stud. Terrence Jones is the next coming of Dennis Rodman. Jeff Teague is like Mark Jackson. MKG is Michael Jordan re-incarnated due to some Buddhist ritual. The college game is at its all time high because of UK. We aint got a chance. But the start of a new season will change that. The game will once again be down, but enjoyable and hopefully the basketball GODS will cast a message. THOU SHALT NOT QUESTION ANY UK'S FANS OPINION. I did my best, but I guess I will be cast below. I am done on this topic and will try to focus on the Reds.....if I can get the bluriness out of my eyes.
Good stuff, haha.

However, most of what you said is inaccurate. Yes, Davis is a stud. Yes, the "Bible" of college basketball was written in Lexington. :D But the rest? I have never seen a UK fan make any of those claims. Seriously, you're an IU fan posting in a UK thread. You can't really expect your opinions to be 100% accepted as fact.

Assembly Hall
05-21-2012, 08:00 AM
Good stuff, haha.

However, most of what you said is inaccurate. Yes, Davis is a stud. Yes, the "Bible" of college basketball was written in Lexington. :D But the rest? I have never seen a UK fan make any of those claims. Seriously, you're an IU fan posting in a UK thread. You can't really expect your opinions to be 100% accepted as fact.

LOL.........it was tongue in cheek. I will just agree to disagree with you and Scrap and a couple others. I enjoyed the discussions and feedback.

WMR
05-21-2012, 10:12 AM
OK, who has been pulling AH's pigtails now??

We need to be kind to our Hoosier brethern. 1987 was a long, long time ago.

Scrap Irony
05-21-2012, 12:51 PM
25 years.

My, how time flies.

cumberlandreds
05-21-2012, 02:35 PM
25 years.

My, how time flies.

Silver Anniversary time. ;)

Assembly Hall
05-21-2012, 09:09 PM
LOL fellas.

25 years and and only 2 FF appearances since. One NC appearance since. And only 7 SS apearances since.

My hair has gotten gray, my kids are grown up, and my "Pig Tails" have turned into a pony tail waiting for the Messiah!!!!!!!

New York Red
05-23-2012, 10:39 PM
For anyone who dares to complain about UK's upcoming schedules, check this out (from Cal):

2012-2013

vs Baylor (at Rupp)
@ Louisville
vs Duke (Champions Classic)
@ Georgetown
@ Big East team TBA
vs Maryland (grand opening of the Barclays Center)

2013-2014

@ North Carolina
vs Louisville (at Rupp)
SEC/Big East Challenge (TBA)
vs Baylor (in Cowboys Stadium - doubleheader/girls game first)
vs Michigan State (in Chicago)
*In discussions with Coach K to start a neutral site series with Duke at different sites around the country, beginning in 2013/14.

No other school has ever scheduled as many marquee games year after year as Kentucky has, and that obviously isn't going to change.

WMR
05-23-2012, 10:53 PM
Baylor in Jerry Jones' Pleasure Palace > Hoosiers in bloomington

Cal is the man and UK continues to set the standard.

WVRed
05-23-2012, 11:06 PM
Baylor in Jerry Jones' Pleasure Palace > Hoosiers in bloomington

Cal is the man and UK continues to set the standard.

UK is recruiting the Harrison twins and Julius Randle, both of whom are from Texas.

Coincidence?

WMR
05-23-2012, 11:19 PM
UK is recruiting the Harrison twins and Julius Randle, both of whom are from Texas.

Coincidence?

:)

New York Red
05-23-2012, 11:20 PM
UK is recruiting the Harrison twins and Julius Randle, both of whom are from Texas.

Coincidence?
I know your question was tic, but isn't it great? Cal at this point is the best coach, recruiter, and marketer in the country. But he is so far ahead of the game in other ways. That's what separates him from the rest.

dabvu2498
05-24-2012, 12:01 AM
I know your question was tic, but isn't it great? Cal at this point is the best coach, recruiter, and marketer in the country. But he is so far ahead of the game in other ways. That's what separates him from the rest.

Let's not act like he's reinventing the wheel. Coaches have agreed to play in recruits home areas for a while now.

For example, Kansas played in Philly for the Morris boys just a couple years ago.

New York Red
05-24-2012, 07:25 AM
Let's not act like he's reinventing the wheel. Coaches have agreed to play in recruits home areas for a while now.

For example, Kansas played in Philly for the Morris boys just a couple years ago.
That's just one game out of a list of a dozen or so marquee matchups. He's not reinventing the wheel. He's just continuing the kind of scheduling that's a tradition at UK -- and UK only.

dabvu2498
05-24-2012, 07:55 AM
That's just one game out of a list of a dozen or so marquee matchups. He's not reinventing the wheel. He's just continuing the kind of scheduling that's a tradition at UK -- and UK only.

So their out of conference strength of schedule would be #1 for many years in a row then, no?

New York Red
05-24-2012, 08:17 AM
So their out of conference strength of schedule would be #1 for many years in a row then, no?
Nope, it doesn't work that way. That kind of honor would go to a school like Duke, where Coach K schedules a bunch of middle-of-the-road teams while avoiding marquee matchups with traditional powers. That's why SOS is extremely overrated in most cases.

cumberlandreds
05-24-2012, 08:40 AM
I like the game in Texas. Huge event with probably the biggest crowd ever for an NCAA game. He also mentioned getting a game at Lucas Oil Stadium for next year or beyond. That could be Indiana. So there's hope for the IU fans yet to play UK. The schedule this year will be just a tad weaker than normal but in future years it sure doesn't look that way. Cal mentioned playing a Big East team on the road. I wondering if he was referring to the Georgetown game or someone else?

Assembly Hall
05-24-2012, 09:13 AM
Nope, it doesn't work that way. That kind of honor would go to a school like Duke, where Coach K schedules a bunch of middle-of-the-road teams while avoiding marquee matchups with traditional powers. That's why SOS is extremely overrated in most cases.

LOL on the Duke comment. Every year I look at where Duke is and I just shake my head. Never understood how that works.

Assembly Hall
05-24-2012, 09:17 AM
For anyone who dares to complain about UK's upcoming schedules, check this out (from Cal):

2012-2013

vs Baylor (at Rupp)
@ Louisville
vs Duke (Champions Classic)
@ Georgetown
@ Big East team TBA
vs Maryland (grand opening of the Barclays Center)

2013-2014

@ North Carolina
vs Louisville (at Rupp)
SEC/Big East Challenge (TBA)
vs Baylor (in Cowboys Stadium - doubleheader/girls game first)
vs Michigan State (in Chicago)
*In discussions with Coach K to start a neutral site series with Duke at different sites around the country, beginning in 2013/14.

No other school has ever scheduled as many marquee games year after year as Kentucky has, and that obviously isn't going to change.


Kentucky needs to play out of conference games like these. Lord knows they aint gonna get much competition in the SEC!!!!!!!!

WMR
05-24-2012, 10:10 AM
Playing in the SEC has clearly kept our member schools from winning championships. I mean, just compare the number of championships won by SEC member schools versus championships won by the Big 10 over the past 20 years. (Hint: Without Michigan State your conference would have a big goose egg. SEC: SIX! :laugh: )

WHOOPS! Another fail by Assembly Hall. :lol:

Conference smack is about all the poor hoosiers have left, and them trying even that makes them look stupid if you look at actual results.

WMR
05-24-2012, 10:12 AM
UK has won as many championships since 1996 as the ENTIRE Big Ten has won since 1987! :lol:

LexRedsFan
05-24-2012, 10:14 AM
Baylor in Jerry Jones' Pleasure Palace > Hoosiers in bloomington

Cal is the man and UK continues to set the standard.

You know what else? Guess where the Final Four is the year we play Baylor down there?

If you guessed Jerry World, you guessed correctly.

Assembly Hall
05-24-2012, 10:46 AM
Playing in the SEC has clearly kept our member schools from winning championships. I mean, just compare the number of championships won by SEC member schools versus championships won by the Big 10 over the past 20 years. (Hint: Without Michigan State your conference would have a big goose egg. SEC: SIX! :laugh: )

WHOOPS! Another fail by Assembly Hall. :lol:

Conference smack is about all the poor hoosiers have left, and them trying even that makes them look stupid if you look at actual results.

LOL......it wasnt conference smack. If I thought my team was gonna be in a less than steller conference, I would want to play good teams ooc. We arent talking the past here, we are looking into the future. Now conversely If I thought I had a good team, but yet was going to get stiff competition from within the conference I would be more apt to have an easier ooc schedule.

I never intended my comments to be a recent history lesson on how the SEC stacked up against the BIG according to championships in the last 25 years. BTW, how would the numbers be if it was FF appearances?

dabvu2498
05-24-2012, 10:50 AM
LOL on the Duke comment. Every year I look at where Duke is and I just shake my head. Never understood how that works.

You must admit there's a difference between playing Chattanooga and Belmont. Between Radford and Davidson. Between Penn and Samford. Between Penn State and and Colorado State. Of course, fans of "top tier" programs look at schools like those as automatic wins, but there's a considerable difference.

In the past 3 years, Duke has played 25 nonconference opponents in the top 100 RPI. Kentucky -- 15. Narrow it to the top 50, it's Duke 15, Kentucky 10.

That's how it works.

Assembly Hall
05-24-2012, 11:01 AM
You must admit there's a difference between playing Chattanooga and Belmont. Between Radford and Davidson. Between Penn and Samford. Between Penn State and and Colorado State. Of course, fans of "top tier" programs look at schools like those as automatic wins, but there's a considerable difference.

In the past 3 years, Duke has played 25 nonconference opponents in the top 100 RPI. Kentucky -- 15. Narrow it to the top 50, it's Duke 15, Kentucky 10.

That's how it works.

There certainly is dabvu. Interesting stuff.

Hoosier Red
05-24-2012, 11:07 AM
There's definitely an art and science to picking the top teams from crap conferences and the middling teams from power conferences.

Everyone is going to play a some teams from the MAC or MEAC or MAAC et al, but if you play the top team it looks much better and you should still easily be able to defeat them.

Also if you play a crap team from a good conference, even if there record turns out to not be as good, they'll still keep a high RPI due to the tough schedule.

dabvu2498
05-24-2012, 11:09 AM
That said, kudos to UK on the scheduling. Those are interesting and watchable new matchups.

I was a fan of the IU-UK rivalry (I also attended all of the "Big 4 Classic" games a gazillion years ago), but they seem to have done a good job of filling that void for now.

Assembly Hall
05-24-2012, 11:19 AM
That said, kudos to UK on the scheduling. Those are interesting and watchable new matchups.

I was a fan of the IU-UK rivalry (I also attended all of the "Big 4 Classic" games a gazillion years ago), but they seem to have done a good job of filling that void for now.


Yes they are, and yes they have.

WMR
05-24-2012, 11:28 AM
That said, kudos to UK on the scheduling. Those are interesting and watchable new matchups.

I was a fan of the IU-UK rivalry (I also attended all of the "Big 4 Classic" games a gazillion years ago), but they seem to have done a good job of filling that void for now.

I think the biggest fear was that the schedule would be boring. Since this announcement, every UK fan I have seen speak/type on the issue is very happy with how the schedule is now looking.

It's nice for the program to be in such competent hands after BCG/Flubster.

I'm also a huge fan of how Cal is enforcing a strict 2 year limit on our scheduling decisions. No more 8 year contracts with Lil Brother, even though Cal said he does not envision that game changing anytime soon. Locking your program into such long commitments when there's no advantage to doing so is just dumb.

Assembly Hall
05-24-2012, 11:47 AM
BTW WMR I looked up FF appearances for the SEC and Big Ten since 1987. The SEC has 13 amongst 3 schools.....UK, Florida, and Arkansas. The Big Ten has 18 amongst 7 schools...Indiana, Illinois, Michigan, Michigan State, Ohio State, Wisconsin, and Minnesota.

WMR
05-24-2012, 11:52 AM
BTW WMR I looked up FF appearances for the SEC and Big Ten since 1987. The SEC has 13 amongst 3 schools.....UK, Florida, and Arkansas. The Big Ten has 18 amongst 7 schools...Indiana, Illinois, Michigan, Michigan State, Ohio State, Wisconsin, and Minnesota.

So you're telling me the SEC knows how to close?

Coffee is for closers! Playing in the Big 10 will get you close, but no cigar. :D

LexRedsFan
05-24-2012, 11:57 AM
BTW WMR I looked up FF appearances for the SEC and Big Ten since 1987. The SEC has 13 amongst 3 schools.....UK, Florida, and Arkansas. The Big Ten has 18 amongst 7 schools...Indiana, Illinois, Michigan, Michigan State, Ohio State, Wisconsin, and Minnesota.

LSU made the Final Four in '06 as well. 14 amongst 4, now.

LexRedsFan
05-24-2012, 11:58 AM
And I've seen so many play the "Vacated" card on Calipari that I may as well play it here...Minneosta and Michigan each had a Final Four vacated, did they not? ;)

New York Red
05-24-2012, 12:09 PM
You must admit there's a difference between playing Chattanooga and Belmont. Between Radford and Davidson. Between Penn and Samford. Between Penn State and and Colorado State. Of course, fans of "top tier" programs look at schools like those as automatic wins, but there's a considerable difference.

In the past 3 years, Duke has played 25 nonconference opponents in the top 100 RPI. Kentucky -- 15. Narrow it to the top 50, it's Duke 15, Kentucky 10.

That's how it works.
That's the coward's way of scheduling. The Coach K way. I'd much rather have it the way UK does it, with numerous marquee matchups to look forward to every year. What would you look more forward to, your school playing a Top 10 team or a team ranked 50th or 100th? It's a no-brainer for me.

dabvu2498
05-24-2012, 12:37 PM
That's the coward's way of scheduling. The Coach K way. I'd much rather have it the way UK does it, with numerous marquee matchups to look forward to every year. What would you look more forward to, your school playing a Top 10 team or a team ranked 50th or 100th? It's a no-brainer for me.

Since you brought it up...

Top 25 nonconference matchups in the last 3 years:
Duke -- 8
UK -- 8

Top 10
Duke -- 4
UK -- 4

But keep calling Coach K a coward.

Hoosier Red
05-24-2012, 12:43 PM
Since you brought it up...

Top 25 nonconference matchups in the last 3 years:
Duke -- 8
UK -- 8

Top 10
Duke -- 4
UK -- 4

But keep calling Coach K a coward.

But Kentucky played the GOOD top 10 teams and Duke played all the crappy ones.

Assembly Hall
05-24-2012, 01:11 PM
And I've seen so many play the "Vacated" card on Calipari that I may as well play it here...Minneosta and Michigan each had a Final Four vacated, did they not? ;)

You dont hear me play that card.

Assembly Hall
05-24-2012, 01:16 PM
LSU made the Final Four in '06 as well. 14 amongst 4, now.

I missed that one. My apologies.

New York Red
05-24-2012, 01:18 PM
Since you brought it up...

Top 25 nonconference matchups in the last 3 years:
Duke -- 8
UK -- 8

Top 10
Duke -- 4
UK -- 4

But keep calling Coach K a coward.
How many of those did Coach K actually schedule head-to-head, in advance? I can guess. In the past 20 years, UK has played 47 OOC games against the top seven college basketball programs of all-time. Duke has played a total of 7 OOC games against those teams. When it comes to scheduling, K is a coward and always has been. I thought that was common knowledge, but maybe not.

New York Red
05-24-2012, 01:21 PM
Vitale is tweeting that UK and Indiana had a deal on the table that had already been agreed upon -- two years, both games at Lucas Oil Stadium, all revenue and 70,000 tickets split down the middle -- but Tom Crean backed out at the last minute.

Assembly Hall
05-24-2012, 01:26 PM
So you're telling me the SEC knows how to close?

Coffee is for closers! Playing in the Big 10 will get you close, but no cigar. :D

It depends on how you look at it. The state of SEC hoops right here, right now is no where close to the level in the Big 10. The SEC wasnt ranked #1 last year, Kentucky was. The same SEC argument can be applied to the ACC. But looking at championships in no way translates to a conference's dominance. The best team doesnt always play in the best conference, and the best team doesnt always win the championship(Although this year it did).

Assembly Hall
05-24-2012, 01:33 PM
Vitale is tweeting that UK and Indiana had a deal on the table that had already been agreed upon -- two years, both games at Lucas Oil Stadium, all revenue and 70,000 tickets split down the middle -- but Tom Crean backed out at the last minute.

Jay Bilas is tweeting that UK had a deal all worked out with Indiana at Lucas Oil Stadium in their own minds. UK wants the revenue off a big ticket event, not IU. For Christ's sake, IU wanted the game at Rupp next year. Quit passing the freakin' buck.

dabvu2498
05-24-2012, 01:34 PM
How many of those did Coach K actually schedule head-to-head, in advance? I can guess.

Not sure why this matters. They played em, didn't they? Agreeing to play in Maui or any other ESPN arranged "classic" is agreeing to play in a difficult game... Away from home.

The ironic part is that UK is moving towards the "Duke model" in scheduling. Fewer home and homes, fewer nonconference rivalry games.

2nd irony: Coach K is a "coward" but is about to agree to play UK in a neutral site series.

Assembly Hall
05-24-2012, 01:37 PM
How many of those did Coach K actually schedule head-to-head, in advance? I can guess. In the past 20 years, UK has played 47 OOC games against the top seven college basketball programs of all-time. Duke has played a total of 7 OOC games against those teams. When it comes to scheduling, K is a coward and always has been. I thought that was common knowledge, but maybe not.

Be mindful of what you say. I am a Duke hater myself, but K's numbers speak for themselves. Lest us not forget he just won the title a few years back with those scheduling techniques.

New York Red
05-24-2012, 01:42 PM
Not sure why this matters. They played em, didn't they? Agreeing to play in Maui or any other ESPN arranged "classic" is agreeing to play in a difficult game... Away from home.

The ironic part is that UK is moving towards the "Duke model" in scheduling. Fewer home and homes, fewer nonconference rivalry games.

2nd irony: Coach K is a "coward" but is about to agree to play UK in a neutral site series.
There is nothing even close to similar about the way Duke schedules and the way UK schedules. Never has been. Look up the number of OOC games Duke has scheduled on a ranked opponent's home floor in the past 20 years. It's mind-boggling. Again, I thought this was common knowledge among college basketball observers, but maybe not. If the the UK/Duke series does indeed come to fruition, I (and a lot of others) will be shocked, because it would be totally out of the ordinary for Coach K to do something like that.

New York Red
05-24-2012, 01:47 PM
Be mindful of what you say. I am a Duke hater myself, but K's numbers speak for themselves. Lest us not forget he just won the title a few years back with those scheduling techniques.
This isn't about his success as a coach. I'm talking scheduling only, and it's common knowledge that K shies away from top competition in the OOC portion of the schedule. Even Duke fans admit it. This thread is probably the only time I've ever seen anyone argue in K's favor on this subject.

dabvu2498
05-24-2012, 01:47 PM
There is nothing even close to similar about the way Duke schedules and the way UK schedules. Never has been. Look up the number of OOC games Duke has scheduled on a ranked opponent's home floor in the past 20 years. It's mind-boggling. Again, I thought this was common knowledge among college basketball observers, but maybe not. If the the UK/Duke series does indeed come to fruition, I (and a lot of others) will be shocked, because it would be totally out of the ordinary for Coach K to do something like that.

And guess what? With Cal in charge there will be fewer and fewer UK games on the road vs. ranked opponents.

New York Red
05-24-2012, 01:53 PM
And guess what? With Cal in charge there will be fewer and fewer UK games on the road vs. ranked opponents.
We'll see. UK still has the home-and-home with Louisville, and next year we resume the home-and-home with North Carolina, at Chapel Hill. That's already two more marquee home-and-home series than Coach K has ever scheduled at Duke. The only change in the UK schedule is the IU game, and Tom Crean ended that. There is no proof at all that UK will play fewer road games with Cal in charge. Not sure how anyone could look at our next two schedules and not be impressed. I can't wait.

Hoosier Red
05-24-2012, 01:55 PM
How many of those did Coach K actually schedule head-to-head, in advance? I can guess. In the past 20 years, UK has played 47 OOC games against the top seven college basketball programs of all-time. Duke has played a total of 7 OOC games against those teams. When it comes to scheduling, K is a coward and always has been. I thought that was common knowledge, but maybe not.

Well it certainly took guts to play Indiana in 2009 and 2010. It's great that UK schedules a number of games with traditionally strong programs, but to argue that UK's schedule is tougher because it would include UCLA or North Carolina while Duke was playing Ohio State in the B1G Ten ACC challenge, is simply an absurd argument to make.

Duke knows they will get a big name team in an event like the B1G-ACC so they build their schedule around that.

LexRedsFan
05-24-2012, 01:57 PM
Not sure why this matters. They played em, didn't they? Agreeing to play in Maui or any other ESPN arranged "classic" is agreeing to play in a difficult game... Away from home.

The ironic part is that UK is moving towards the "Duke model" in scheduling. Fewer home and homes, fewer nonconference rivalry games.

2nd irony: Coach K is a "coward" but is about to agree to play UK in a neutral site series.

I like how UK dropping Indiana and picking up Duke is dropping nonconference rivalry games. :laugh:

We also only "dropped" UNC for a year because it was beneficial to both programs -- we wanted to set it where UNC and UL were on a schedule where we only play ONE at home on the road each year. UNC was wanting the same.

UK plays Duke in ATL, Maryland in Barclays, Baylor, @Louisville, and a Big East team on the road next year. Plus whatever exemption tournament we do.

The next year, it's Michigan State in Chicago, Baylor in JerryWorld, UL, @UNC, a home Big East opponent...and that potential Duke game you mentioned. Calipari also said something about a game at Lucas Oil -- so that's presumably another big name team.

dabvu2498
05-24-2012, 02:14 PM
I like how UK dropping Indiana and picking up Duke is dropping nonconference rivalry games. :laugh:


It's certainly not a rivalry game in the sense that IU was. They haven't played each other in 11 years. Duke has never played at Rupp (played at Memorial in 1969). UK hasn't played at Cameron since 1958. Since 1980, they've played twice outside of the NCAA tourney. That's not really a rivalry.

And for the record, I'm not criticizing UK's schedule... See here:


That said, kudos to UK on the scheduling. Those are interesting and watchable new matchups.

I was a fan of the IU-UK rivalry (I also attended all of the "Big 4 Classic" games a gazillion years ago), but they seem to have done a good job of filling that void for now.


God help me, I'm defending Duke's scheduling. :eek: And you, as UK fans, should be too, because that's the direction UK's schedule is heading, just with more domes.

New York Red
05-24-2012, 02:17 PM
Well it certainly took guts to play Indiana in 2009 and 2010. It's great that UK schedules a number of games with traditionally strong programs, but to argue that UK's schedule is tougher because it would include UCLA or North Carolina while Duke was playing Ohio State in the B1G Ten ACC challenge, is simply an absurd argument to make.

Duke knows they will get a big name team in an event like the B1G-ACC so they build their schedule around that.
Some years they might get a good opponent and some years they get a bottom feeder. It's the same way with the SEC/Big East Challenge. This past season UK got lucky by getting a down St Johns team, but next year we play at Georgetown. It's the luck of the draw and nothing else. To suggest this is the reason for Coach K's weak scheduling is, as you put it, absurd.

New York Red
05-24-2012, 02:23 PM
Good article here from CBS Sports' Matt Norlander, on UK's scheduling. This came out about an hour ago, well after we started talking about Coach K's scheduling. Notice that Norlander takes a little shot at Coach K. Like I said before, K's scheduling techniques have been discussed and acknowledged for many years now.

http://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/blog/eye-on-college-basketball/19143864/kentucky-going-expectedly-low-key-with-scheduling-aims-to-play-in-front-of-largest-hoops-crowd-ever

dabvu2498
05-24-2012, 02:30 PM
Good article here from CBS Sports' Matt Norlander, on UK's scheduling. This came out about an hour ago, well after we started talking about Coach K's scheduling. Notice that Norlander takes a little shot at Coach K. Like I said before, K's scheduling techniques have been discussed and acknowledged for many years now.

http://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/blog/eye-on-college-basketball/19143864/kentucky-going-expectedly-low-key-with-scheduling-aims-to-play-in-front-of-largest-hoops-crowd-ever


And yet in the same article, he says K and Cal do some things similarly.

Hoosier Red
05-24-2012, 02:30 PM
Some years they might get a good opponent and some years they get a bottom feeder. It's the same way with the SEC/Big East Challenge. This past season UK got lucky by getting a down St Johns team, but next year we play at Georgetown. It's the luck of the draw and nothing else. To suggest this is the reason for Coach K's weak scheduling is, as you put it, absurd.

Why would the organizers have Duke play a down team? I'm a little surprised Kentucky doesn't play a top Big East team but I guess having them play in MSG is too much temptation.

Duke has almost always played one of the top 1 or 2 teams in the Big Ten as far as I can remember. The SEC Big East thing isn't a blind draw is it?

New York Red
05-24-2012, 02:33 PM
God help me, I'm defending Duke's scheduling. :eek: And you, as UK fans, should be too, because that's the direction UK's schedule is heading, just with more domes.
If anything, UK's next two OOC schedules are even more difficult than usual. Definitely not a drop-off. Believe me, if Cal ever attempted to schedule at UK the way Coach K schedules at Duke, Big Blue Nation would march on Lexington and demand his head. I would gladly lead the charge. I'm not sure what you see that leads you to believe anything is changing, but I don't see it. I'll admit I was concerned when Crean ended the UK/IU series, but now that I see what we have lined up, any concerns I had are completely gone.

New York Red
05-24-2012, 02:40 PM
Why would the organizers have Duke play a down team? I'm a little surprised Kentucky doesn't play a top Big East team but I guess having them play in MSG is too much temptation.

Duke has almost always played one of the top 1 or 2 teams in the Big Ten as far as I can remember. The SEC Big East thing isn't a blind draw is it?
I don't know about you, but I consider @ Georgetown a game against a top Big East team. I'm not sure how they do it, but I know you don't choose your opponent and they don't set up marquee matchups. Sometimes they happen, and sometimes they don't. I always thought they should match up the top eight teams based on where they finished in their conferences the previous year. First vs first, second vs second, etc.

New York Red
05-24-2012, 02:42 PM
Two topics I could discuss for hours: Reds baseball and UK basketball. Unfortunately, neither pays the bills. I enjoyed the chat, fellas, but work calls. :beerme:

Hoosier Red
05-24-2012, 06:36 PM
I don't know about you, but I consider @ Georgetown a game against a top Big East team. I'm not sure how they do it, but I know you don't choose your opponent and they don't set up marquee matchups. Sometimes they happen, and sometimes they don't. I always thought they should match up the top eight teams based on where they finished in their conferences the previous year. First vs first, second vs second, etc.

That's odd to me. Certainly Georgetown would qualify as a top team. I'm just surprised that in a made for TV game like the various conference challenges that the TV people who organize it wouldn't set up the team they feel will be best in the conference to match up with UK. Maybe for some strange reason they believed it would be St. Johns last year.

Just because you got me curious, I went back and looked through the history of the Big Ten-ACC challenge and while Duke got some favors early on playing an unranked Iowa and Illinois squads the first few years, the last 9 years have been fairly brutal. They've only played two unranked teams in that span, IU in 2006 and Wisconsin in 2009. Conversely, Duke has played 4 top 10 teams in that span. So criticize him for a number of things, but I don't think its a fair criticism to say Coach K for assuming that the B1G Ten opponent is going to be one of the marquee matchups for the season.

Assembly Hall
05-24-2012, 08:00 PM
Listen. It is one thing to be passionate about your favorite team. It is another to be blind about them. Try to be open minded, and not so one sided. UK has fell before, and they will again. Every program out there goes through it that is on the upper echelon level. Most recover, a few have not. As an IU fan, I am a little freakin' sick and tired of hearing that Crean voided a deal. Jesus, he wanted to play home and home. I am a little sick and tired of hearing about the vaunted UK scheduling as the most premier in the country. I am a little sick and tired of hearing how UK invented the game of basketball. I am a little sick and tired of UK period. It was a great season, they won, get over it. I hope the Cards paste your arszs this year, I will mark it down. Your great schedule will bite you in the rear-end. Duke will be ahead of you in the polls, and some of you will be crying "FOUL".

New York Red
05-24-2012, 09:01 PM
Listen. It is one thing to be passionate about your favorite team. It is another to be blind about them. Try to be open minded, and not so one sided. UK has fell before, and they will again. Every program out there goes through it that is on the upper echelon level. Most recover, a few have not. As an IU fan, I am a little freakin' sick and tired of hearing that Crean voided a deal. Jesus, he wanted to play home and home. I am a little sick and tired of hearing about the vaunted UK scheduling as the most premier in the country. I am a little sick and tired of hearing how UK invented the game of basketball. I am a little sick and tired of UK period. It was a great season, they won, get over it. I hope the Cards paste your arszs this year, I will mark it down. Your great schedule will bite you in the rear-end. Duke will be ahead of you in the polls, and some of you will be crying "FOUL".
UK has taken a bunch of undeserved heat from some in the media and rival fans because it was perceived we were somehow going to change our scheduling ways. Why wouldn't a UK fan want to dispute that when it obviously isn't true? UK and IU had a deal on the table in December. After the season, for whatever reason, Crean changed his mind. I'm not sure why facts would bother you so much.

You don't see me gloating about winning a championship. You don't see me predicting greatness for next year's UK team. It will be a bridge year, but could still be a good year. UofL will be favored over us next year at home. We've beaten them 7 of 9, with the only two losses coming when BCG was coaching UK. UofL has to beat us at some point and next year should be that year. If they lose again, their fans will go into meltdown mode.

As for Duke, we'll see. They will be average by Duke standards. The game will be played in Atlanta, so UK will have a big crowd advantage. It could go either way. As for our schedule coming back to bite us, it's never happened before and it isn't going to this time either. The season isn't defined in December (IU fans probably disagree).

WMR
05-24-2012, 09:21 PM
Listen. It is one thing to be passionate about your favorite team. It is another to be blind about them. Try to be open minded, and not so one sided. UK has fell before, and they will again. Every program out there goes through it that is on the upper echelon level. Most recover, a few have not. As an IU fan, I am a little freakin' sick and tired of hearing that Crean voided a deal. Jesus, he wanted to play home and home. I am a little sick and tired of hearing about the vaunted UK scheduling as the most premier in the country. I am a little sick and tired of hearing how UK invented the game of basketball. I am a little sick and tired of UK period. It was a great season, they won, get over it. I hope the Cards paste your arszs this year, I will mark it down. Your great schedule will bite you in the rear-end. Duke will be ahead of you in the polls, and some of you will be crying "FOUL".

Nice meltdown. :lol:

Perhaps reading/posting in the KENTUCKY BASKETBALL thread isn't for you if you're so sick and tired of discussing Kentucky basketball. :bash:

WMR
05-24-2012, 09:22 PM
UK has taken a bunch of undeserved heat from some in the media and rival fans because it was perceived we were somehow going to change our scheduling ways. Why wouldn't a UK fan want to dispute that when it obviously isn't true? UK and IU had a deal on the table in December. After the season, for whatever reason, Crean changed his mind. I'm not sure why facts would bother you so much.

You don't see me gloating about winning a championship. You don't see me predicting greatness for next year's UK team. It will be a bridge year, but could still be a good year. UofL will be favored over us next year at home. We've beaten them 7 of 9, with the only two losses coming when BCG was coaching UK. UofL has to beat us at some point and next year should be that year. If they lose again, their fans will go into meltdown mode.

As for Duke, we'll see. They will be average by Duke standards. The game will be played in Atlanta, so UK will have a big crowd advantage. It could go either way. As for our schedule coming back to bite us, it's never happened before and it isn't going to this time either. The season isn't defined in December (IU fans probably disagree).

Uhhh, UL fans have been melting down since they lost in the Final Four. A nice, long, protracted meltdown. :laugh:

Although they are convinced they're going to win it all next year. Focusing on that has been cathartic for them after losing to their most detested rival in the Final Four.

New York Red
05-24-2012, 09:30 PM
Nice meltdown. :lol:

Perhaps reading/posting in the KENTUCKY BASKETBALL thread isn't for you if you're so sick and tired of discussing Kentucky basketball. :bash:
This is what I really wanted to say. :beerme:

cumberlandreds
05-25-2012, 08:49 AM
Nice meltdown. :lol:

Perhaps reading/posting in the KENTUCKY BASKETBALL thread isn't for you if you're so sick and tired of discussing Kentucky basketball. :bash:


:thumbup: :laugh:

Assembly Hall
05-25-2012, 09:13 AM
No, the mistake I have made is expecting a little objectivity from a few of the members. I have come to the conclusion that there are some here that are completely blind. I could understand it if this site was "UK Zone" solely for the purpose of UK basketball. But its not. Enjoy the ride right now cause all good things come to an end.

New York Red
05-25-2012, 11:01 AM
Enjoy the ride right now cause all good things come to an end.
The UK basketball dynasty has thrived for 80 or 90 years now. I'm pretty sure that isn't going to change any time soon.

Assembly Hall
05-25-2012, 11:12 AM
The UK basketball dynasty has thrived for 80 or 90 years now. I'm pretty sure that isn't going to change any time soon.


Take off the blinders. They have been pretty low before. Just a few years back there was disharmony in Lexington. Before that it was Tubby Smith. Before that it was Eddie Sutton. Before that the program was under scrutiny with Joe B., And before that even Adolph Rupp had his problems. They all go through it NY Red, UK is not exempt, even if you think they are.

WMR
05-25-2012, 03:37 PM
UK basketball might be "down" again some day, who knows... An Indiana fan of all people talking about another program being down is chuckle-worthy.

No matter how far down we get, however...

We'll still have a greater program than Indiana. :D

WMR
05-25-2012, 03:39 PM
The UK basketball dynasty has thrived for 80 or 90 years now. I'm pretty sure that isn't going to change any time soon.

Pretty amazing we're still the consensus #1 program of all-time with all of these "down times" we've been forced to endure. :D

Imagine how DOWN those other schools must get! :eek:

LexRedsFan
05-25-2012, 03:53 PM
Pretty amazing we're still the consensus #1 program of all-time with all of these "down times" we've been forced to endure. :D

Imagine how DOWN those other schools must get! :eek:

Yeah, schools like Indiana and Louisville...who haven't won a national championship in my lifetime. :lol::lol:

New York Red
05-25-2012, 03:58 PM
Take off the blinders. They have been pretty low before. Just a few years back there was disharmony in Lexington. Before that it was Tubby Smith. Before that it was Eddie Sutton. Before that the program was under scrutiny with Joe B., And before that even Adolph Rupp had his problems. They all go through it NY Red, UK is not exempt, even if you think they are.
I didn't say there were never any down years, or that there never will be again. Having occasional down years (by UK standards) doesn't mean anything is "coming to an end". The Yankee dynasty doesn't come to an end because they go a few years without a WS title, and neither does the Kentucky basketball dynasty. It was built over time and it will stand the test of time. That's not wearing blinders, it's making a case based on available data. You can say the good times are coming to an end, but you have no evidence that supports that opinion. It's just wishful thinking.

New York Red
05-25-2012, 04:01 PM
Yeah, schools like Indiana and Louisville...who haven't won a national championship in my lifetime. :lol::lol:
Hopefully you can still say that when you're 50! :D

Assembly Hall
05-25-2012, 07:49 PM
Yeah, schools like Indiana and Louisville...who haven't won a national championship in my lifetime. :lol::lol:

Thats to bad. If you were a little older you might have a different perspective and a little more appreciation for what is going on at UK right now. Seems like the 80's and early 90's are a distant memory now. You know when Kentucky like made it to one Final Four in like 20 years. Ah, yes the good old days of the of the UK dynasty. I miss them, and how their fans behaved. IU and Louisville were dominant and programs like Georgetown and Duke surfaced. We shall see in the upcoming seasons how the landscape will be.

New York Red
05-25-2012, 09:45 PM
Thats to bad. If you were a little older you might have a different perspective and a little more appreciation for what is going on at UK right now. Seems like the 80's and early 90's are a distant memory now. You know when Kentucky like made it to one Final Four in like 20 years. Ah, yes the good old days of the of the UK dynasty. I miss them, and how their fans behaved. IU and Louisville were dominant and programs like Georgetown and Duke surfaced. We shall see in the upcoming seasons how the landscape will be.
If not for Sam Bowie missing two full years because of leg injuries, the 80's decade would have looked a lot different, but we were still awfully good. UK was ranked in the Top Five in the AP poll 8 different years in the 80's, and in the Top Ten 9 times. Compare that to the "down" periods other schools have. And if by "early 90's" you mean 1990 -- one season -- I'll give you that. It was the only down year of that decade though. We finished the '91 season ranked in the Top Ten, then dominated the rest of the decade.

Assembly Hall
05-25-2012, 10:58 PM
If not for Sam Bowie missing two full years because of leg injuries, the 80's decade would have looked a lot different, but we were still awfully good. UK was ranked in the Top Five in the AP poll 8 different years in the 80's, and in the Top Ten 9 times. Compare that to the "down" periods other schools have. And if by "early 90's" you mean 1990 -- one season -- I'll give you that. It was the only down year of that decade though. We finished the '91 season ranked in the Top Ten, then dominated the rest of the decade.

LOL.......Want some cheese to go with that whine? '78-'96, correct? IU was pretty damn good too during those years, as was Louisville. Seems like you sound like this "IU fan", to hear a few of ya say it. Sam Bowie? Give me a break turning the 80's around. As I said you guys are on cloud 9 right now, enjoy it because you never know when that "drought" will come again. Be happy with what you have achieved, and quit talking trash about other institutions. And pay attention in science class, the Earth revolves around the sun, not Lexington.

PS.......I remember the 89-90 season well. Nothing like walking into Rupp and spanking the 'Cats by 25. Which is what would have happened this year.

http://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/blog/eye-on-college-basketball/19153519/cody-zeller-is-getting-bigger-and-better-according-to-everybody

New York Red
05-25-2012, 11:38 PM
LOL.......Want some cheese to go with that whine? '78-'96, correct? IU was pretty damn good too during those years, as was Louisville. Seems like you sound like this "IU fan", to hear a few of ya say it. Sam Bowie? Give me a break turning the 80's around. As I said you guys are on cloud 9 right now, enjoy it because you never know when that "drought" will come again. Be happy with what you have achieved, and quit talking trash about other institutions. And pay attention in science class, the Earth revolves around the sun, not Lexington.

PS.......I remember the 89-90 season well. Nothing like walking into Rupp and spanking the 'Cats by 25. Which is what would have happened this year.
Ya know, I've tried to be respectful towards you, because we're both Reds fans, and I've only posted factual stuff. It's a fact we were ranked in the Top Five eight times in the 80's. It's a fact that Sam Bowie missing two years because of leg injuries completely changed our team for three years. It's not "whining", it's facts. I have not talked trash about any other schools -- though I could. If by "drought" you mean championships, you need to check your own school's track record. Other than the fluke run UCLA had, even the best programs average less than one championship per decade. Your school is far below that average.

Again, I've tried to discuss basketball with you respectfully. Not sure why you're losing your cool. Do you really expect UK fans to not be biased towards UK? There is an IU thread on this forum, but you choose to post mainly in the UK thread. You remind me of most of the IU and UofL fans I know -- more obsessed with UK than their own school.

New York Red
05-25-2012, 11:56 PM
AH, there's a one-hour Coach Cal interview coming up at 11:00 on FSS. I'm sure you'll want to tune in, since you're so concerned with anything UK basketball related.

:rolleyes:

Assembly Hall
05-26-2012, 09:06 AM
Ya know, I've tried to be respectful towards you, because we're both Reds fans, and I've only posted factual stuff. It's a fact we were ranked in the Top Five eight times in the 80's. It's a fact that Sam Bowie missing two years because of leg injuries completely changed our team for three years. It's not "whining", it's facts. I have not talked trash about any other schools -- though I could. If by "drought" you mean championships, you need to check your own school's track record. Other than the fluke run UCLA had, even the best programs average less than one championship per decade. Your school is far below that average.

Again, I've tried to discuss basketball with you respectfully. Not sure why you're losing your cool. Do you really expect UK fans to not be biased towards UK? There is an IU thread on this forum, but you choose to post mainly in the UK thread. You remind me of most of the IU and UofL fans I know -- more obsessed with UK than their own school.

I appreciate your trying to be respectful. I dont see how Sam Bowie's injury affected 18 years. But you did hit something on the head. UK was a very good basketball team a majority of those 18 years, just wasnt playing for a championship. I put "drought" in quotations for a reason. Some people measure success in championships, I dont. I was just pointing out the fact that there were 18 years in between for UK. Right now it is 25 for IU, but in there is a national title game appearance, 2 Final Fours, 3 Elite Eights, and 7 Sweet Sixteens. Great by a lot of schools standards, but not IU's or UK's. To say IU is below average on championships is ludicrous. You might want to re-think that comment.

I am not losing my cool. And I expect total bias from UK fans, but I also expect them to be fans of the sport. I post on the UK board here because this is where there is activity. I come here for the Reds, but cant help but join in on the discussions on this thread. I am not obsessed with UK but to be honest this is the only board I come to where UK hoops are discussed by UK fans and I love the discussions and join in because I love the game of college basketball.

If you have taken any of my comments in a dis-respectful manner, I apologize for that. It was not my intent.

Go Reds!!!!!!!!!

WVRed
05-27-2012, 11:17 AM
PS.......I remember the 89-90 season well. Nothing like walking into Rupp and spanking the 'Cats by 25. Which is what would have happened this year.

I've tried to stay out of this, but while I acknowledge that Indiana is going to be very good and a national title threat, there is no way that Indiana would come into Rupp and beat a John Calipari coached team by 25.

Do I think Indiana could possibly win? Yes. By double digits? Yes. A blowout? Not happening.

If the game was at Bloomington I might agree with a blowout given its a road game for a young team and a hostile environment. It happened in the 89 season because of probation and a major talent disparity. The talent gap is closer this time.

Scrap Irony
05-27-2012, 11:40 AM
Cats with a 3.12 GPA in the spring semester.

Were it not for Daniel Orton, Calipari's team GPA would be close to 3.00 in the three years he's been the Kentucky coach.

(Orton, as many will recall, left Kentucky high and dry in Calipari's first season as coach, and chose not to finish out the spring semester as a student but to focus on making the NBA.)

Since Boob Knight's declaration that Calipari is doing a disservice to the NCAA and student-athletes, Kentucky's GPA ranks in the top ten percent of all NCAA basketball schools that have released their team GPAs.

Assembly Hall
05-27-2012, 11:56 AM
I've tried to stay out of this, but while I acknowledge that Indiana is going to be very good and a national title threat, there is no way that Indiana would come into Rupp and beat a John Calipari coached team by 25.

Do I think Indiana could possibly win? Yes. By double digits? Yes. A blowout? Not happening.

If the game was at Bloomington I might agree with a blowout given its a road game for a young team and a hostile environment. It happened in the 89 season because of probation and a major talent disparity. The talent gap is closer this time.

LOL.......I hear ya WV. And understand what you are saying. But remember that 89-90 IU team went 8-10 in the Big Ten. I dont think there is any way in hell that IU would go into Rupp and beat the 'Cats by 25. I couldnt believe it then and wouldnt believe it now.:beerme:

Razor Shines
05-27-2012, 12:03 PM
Cats with a 3.12 GPA in the spring semester.

Were it not for Daniel Orton, Calipari's team GPA would be close to 3.00 in the three years he's been the Kentucky coach.

(Orton, as many will recall, left Kentucky high and dry in Calipari's first season as coach, and chose not to finish out the spring semester as a student but to focus on making the NBA.)

Since Boob Knight's declaration that Calipari is doing a disservice to the NCAA and student-athletes, Kentucky's GPA ranks in the top ten percent of all NCAA basketball schools that have released their team GPAs.

Oh but do you have any idea how clean IU's ball players keep their rooms? They could all be English butler's.

If it wasn't for that slob Matt Roth and the infamous poop smear incident IU would be in the top 10 for dorm cleanliness of B1G Ten schools that have released their teams dorm cleanliness reports.

Crean is renown for being drill Sargentesque in room cleanliness. "Cut class if you have to" he's known to say "but keep your mf room clean."


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Assembly Hall
05-27-2012, 12:04 PM
Cats with a 3.12 GPA in the spring semester.

Were it not for Daniel Orton, Calipari's team GPA would be close to 3.00 in the three years he's been the Kentucky coach.

(Orton, as many will recall, left Kentucky high and dry in Calipari's first season as coach, and chose not to finish out the spring semester as a student but to focus on making the NBA.)

Since Boob Knight's declaration that Calipari is doing a disservice to the NCAA and student-athletes, Kentucky's GPA ranks in the top ten percent of all NCAA basketball schools that have released their team GPAs.

I dont like the way the General talks about Cal. IMHO his hatred of him is two fold. 1..........He didnt like the way UK was under Hall and Sutton. 2........he likes John Cheaney who dislikes Cal. On another note, Bob had nothing but praise for Pittino and Tubby when they were in charge. Bob doesnt understand the landscape change. I find Cal a very interesting person and I like him. I just hope he proves Knight wrong and keeps UK out of any NCAA violations. Because that would shut him up as well as other UK/Cal haters.

Assembly Hall
05-27-2012, 12:06 PM
Oh but do you have any idea how clean IU's ball players keep their rooms? They could all be English butler's.

If it wasn't for that slob Matt Roth and the infamous poop smear incident IU would be in the top 10 for dorm cleanliness of B1G Ten schools that have released their teams dorm cleanliness reports.

Crean is renown for being drill Sargentesque in room cleanliness. "Cut class if you have to" he's known to say "but keep your mf room clean."


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

LMFAO!!!!!!!!!!!

Scrap Irony
05-27-2012, 03:28 PM
I dont like the way the General talks about Cal. IMHO his hatred of him is two fold. 1..........He didnt like the way UK was under Hall and Sutton. 2........he likes John Cheaney who dislikes Cal. On another note, Bob had nothing but praise for Pittino and Tubby when they were in charge. Bob doesnt understand the landscape change. I find Cal a very interesting person and I like him. I just hope he proves Knight wrong and keeps UK out of any NCAA violations. Because that would shut him up as well as other UK/Cal haters.

1) John Cheaney likes Calipari. Read the SI article on their relationship-- it tells you something about Calipari's heart, IMO.

2) Nothing will shut up Cal haters. Haters gonna hate, no matter what happens. Calipari could give away his entire salary and some would complain that he didn't do it sooner.

Assembly Hall
05-27-2012, 03:54 PM
1) John Cheaney likes Calipari. Read the SI article on their relationship-- it tells you something about Calipari's heart, IMO.

2) Nothing will shut up Cal haters. Haters gonna hate, no matter what happens. Calipari could give away his entire salary and some would complain that he didn't do it sooner.

Cheaney likes Cal? Hmmmmmmm.......after threatening to "kill" him at a press conference? Oh well.......I know Kniight thought the world of the former Temple coach and they had a series together.

Personally, I dont understand the Cal bashing. It never made any sense to me and still doesnt 'til this day. The guy took a UMASS team to prominence and resurrected a Memphis program. IMO if any program or coach should be under the microscope it should be Duke and Coach K. Kind of funny how all their players graduate in 3 years and all major in the same thing. Hmmmmmmm.

Scrap Irony
05-27-2012, 04:12 PM
From the SI article (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1182972/index.htm) done on Calipari, John Chaney says:


"I admire him. He knows that.

He goes on to tell Price how Calipari continued to talk with him, even after the "I'll kill you" incident and how he didn't hold it against Chaney. Last season, Chaney came in to Lexington to talk to Calipari about defense.


Some old enemies have become friends. After their wars ended in the Atlantic 10, Calipari cultivated Chaney, picking his brain about his zone defense, inviting him to his annual coaches' retreat. "I admire him," Chaney says, "and he knows that."

Not even the second blot on Calipari's record—the 2007--08 season vacated by Memphis because someone other than guard Derrick Rose reportedly took his one passing SAT test in high school—bothers Chaney. (Rose denies any wrongdoing in the matter.) But how can a coach not know about his star recruit's SAT? How could Calipari, renowned for being so detail oriented, twice be so in the dark?

"If John said he didn't know, that's good enough for me," Chaney says. "I can see how some of these things can get past. Especially nowadays, they can present you with a youngster who's tainted. Believe me."

5TimeWSChamps
05-27-2012, 09:37 PM
Take off the blinders. They have been pretty low before. Just a few years back there was disharmony in Lexington. Before that it was Tubby Smith. Before that it was Eddie Sutton. Before that the program was under scrutiny with Joe B., And before that even Adolph Rupp had his problems. They all go through it NY Red, UK is not exempt, even if you think they are.

The "low" points for UK is a NIT appearance, as compared to IU's lows.

BUT, BUT, CREAN HAD TO REBUILD! AND TOOK 5 YEARS!

New York Red
05-27-2012, 11:43 PM
Cats with a 3.12 GPA in the spring semester.

Were it not for Daniel Orton, Calipari's team GPA would be close to 3.00 in the three years he's been the Kentucky coach.

(Orton, as many will recall, left Kentucky high and dry in Calipari's first season as coach, and chose not to finish out the spring semester as a student but to focus on making the NBA.)

Since Boob Knight's declaration that Calipari is doing a disservice to the NCAA and student-athletes, Kentucky's GPA ranks in the top ten percent of all NCAA basketball schools that have released their team GPAs.
It's funny how some in the national media completely ignore these facts and run with their own agenda instead. As for Bobby Knight, he long ago should have been institutionalized in a combination old folks/anger management facility. By far the worst and most obviously biased analyst in the sport.

New York Red
05-27-2012, 11:51 PM
The "low" points for UK is a NIT appearance, as compared to IU's lows.

BUT, BUT, CREAN HAD TO REBUILD! AND TOOK 5 YEARS!
That's why Crean isn't now, and never will be, a great coach. Great coaches rebuild immediately. It took Pitino one year to get UK back on track after the Sutton fiasco. Calipari did it in just a couple months. Crean isn't that kind of coach and isn't that kind of personality. He has to rely on Indiana kids wanting to play for the state school, because top recruits around the country don't have IU or Crean on their radar. He better hope the home state AAU pipeline doesn't dry up.

Assembly Hall
05-28-2012, 12:57 AM
That's why Crean isn't now, and never will be, a great coach. Great coaches rebuild immediately. It took Pitino one year to get UK back on track after the Sutton fiasco. Calipari did it in just a couple months. Crean isn't that kind of coach and isn't that kind of personality. He has to rely on Indiana kids wanting to play for the state school, because top recruits around the country don't have IU or Crean on their radar. He better hope the home state AAU pipeline doesn't dry up.

Thank God we dont have to rely on Kentucky kids. Hmmmmmm......but neither does UK anymore. Very factual stuff there NY Red. Home state AAU pipeline? Watford, Oladipo, Sheehey.............geez I fail to make the connection.

BTW, neither Pittino or Calipari gutted their program. Crean took over a program that would have been pretty dang good. He kicked off three returning starters.

5TimeWSChamps
05-28-2012, 02:08 AM
Thank God we dont have to rely on Kentucky kids. Hmmmmmm......but neither does UK anymore. Very factual stuff there NY Red. Home state AAU pipeline? Watford, Oladipo, Sheehey.............geez I fail to make the connection.

BTW, neither Pittino or Calipari gutted their program. Crean took over a program that would have been pretty dang good. He kicked off three returning starters.

Returning players on UK's first team under Cal:

Darius Miller
Patrick Patterson
Josh Harrellson
DeAndre Liggins
Ramon Harris
Perry Stevenson

That's quite the roster right there.

WVRed
05-28-2012, 11:10 AM
Thank God we dont have to rely on Kentucky kids. Hmmmmmm......but neither does UK anymore. Very factual stuff there NY Red. Home state AAU pipeline? Watford, Oladipo, Sheehey.............geez I fail to make the connection.

BTW, neither Pittino or Calipari gutted their program. Crean took over a program that would have been pretty dang good. He kicked off three returning starters.

I think the point NYRed was trying to make is that IU has benefitted mainly from keeping kids in-state. When Indiana has been at their best has been when they have kept the top recruits in Bloomington.

Comparing Kentucky to Indiana in terms of basketball talent is apples and asparagus. Kentucky occasionally produces four star recruits, but not at the level that has came through Indiana. The Zellers, Josh McRoberts, Greg Oden, Mike Conley, Marquis Teague, etc.

For the record, Kentucky made an instant impact hire with John Calipari. People were scared because of the baggage, but Calipari is in the same tier as Roy Williams and Coach K in being able to start over at a program and build a winner overnight. Not a lot of coaches can have that impact, and it's not to take anything away from Tom Crean, because he was the perfect fit for Indiana at that time.

Assembly Hall
05-28-2012, 11:49 AM
WVRed, I dont think that was his point at all. I took it as IU will not succeed because they dont recruit nationally, which aint the case at all with Crean. 3 starters on this current team are from out of state. Not only that, they dont even come from border states.

That being said, there is a lot of talent that Indiana produces. Talent good enough to be on the best teams out there. Zellar at UNC, the Plumlee brothers at Duke, Thomas at Ohio St, and even Teague at UK. IU doesnt need to recruit out of state but they will.

I dont think Crean gets credit for what he did at Marquette. Look at where they are now thanks to him. He took over an IU program that had a dark cloud hanging over it. He came in and gutted it and started from scratch. I dont think Cal's, Roy's, or K's situations even compare to what TC took on. I would compare it more to Pittino's situation when he took on the Kentucky job.

As I have stated in several posts. I hate UK, but I respect them.

New York Red
05-28-2012, 12:33 PM
I wasn't suggesting IU has no out-of-state kids. I just don't think Crean will be able to recruit enough top recruits nationally, so he better get most of the top recruits in-state. As for what he did at Marquette, other than the Final Four year when Dwayne Wade put them on his back, they won a total of one NCAA tourney game in 9 years with Crean as coach. He'll need to do a lot better than that at IU. By comparison, Marquette has won 5 NCAA tourney games in four years with Buzz Williams as coach.

Assembly Hall
05-28-2012, 01:23 PM
Understood NYRed. But how many of those Marquette players were Crean's guys? A final four at Marquette is pretty dang impressive to me. As was Cal's at UMass and Memphis. We shall see how Buzz does in the next few years.

New York Red
05-28-2012, 02:20 PM
Understood NYRed. But how many of those Marquette players were Crean's guys? A final four at Marquette is pretty dang impressive to me. As was Cal's at UMass and Memphis. We shall see how Buzz does in the next few years.
Oh it was an impressive run, no doubt about that. They got that Final Four at UK's expense, by destroying us in the Elite Eight. That was a bigtime Marquette team. But that "Crean's guys" argument works both ways. The Seniors on that FF team weren't recruited by Crean, just as Buzz Williams has won with a lot of Crean's recruits. I don't buy into that argument though. It's like when people discredit Tubby Smith's championship at UK because he "won with Pitino's players". I don't care whose recruits they were, it was a great coaching job, as Crean's was when he took Marquette to the Final Four.

Assembly Hall
05-28-2012, 04:10 PM
Oh it was an impressive run, no doubt about that. They got that Final Four at UK's expense, by destroying us in the Elite Eight. That was a bigtime Marquette team. But that "Crean's guys" argument works both ways. The Seniors on that FF team weren't recruited by Crean, just as Buzz Williams has won with a lot of Crean's recruits. I don't buy into that argument though. It's like when people discredit Tubby Smith's championship at UK because he "won with Pitino's players". I don't care whose recruits they were, it was a great coaching job, as Crean's was when he took Marquette to the Final Four.

No, that FF team was Crean's 4th year there. I will agree to a point on the coaching aspect. But it is a heckuva lot easier for a new coach to win when the talent is already there or ya got something to work with. Crean took an IU job that should have been easier had he not decided to clean house. He kicked off Armon Bassett, Jordan Crawford, and JeMarcus Ellis(all three starters). Several others tranferred including Eli Holman(who followed Ray McCallum to Detroit). His leading returning scorer was a walk-on that averaged around 2 points a game. The cupboard was completely bare. I do think that Maurice Creek's injuries up until last year hampered the team from improving in his 2nd and 3rd years.

New York Red
05-28-2012, 09:51 PM
My bad, I thought it was his third year. I guess my eyes aren't what they used to be. I stand by the other part though -- only one NCAA win in his other eight years combined. I think the jury is still out on what kind of coach Crean is. I know IU fans won't agree with that opinion, but I wouldn't expect them to either.

LexRedsFan
05-29-2012, 02:12 AM
Thats to bad. If you were a little older you might have a different perspective and a little more appreciation for what is going on at UK right now. Seems like the 80's and early 90's are a distant memory now.

I wish the 90's were every decade. 93 final four, 96 title, 97 runner up, 98 championship as well as an E8 in 92, 95 (?), and 99.

And I most definitely have an appreciation....my "growing up" as a uk fan started during Tubby time. Aka the longest final four drought in uk history. I have the vaguest of memories of the 96 team, and that's probably just from watching game tape.

Btw, Kentucky has 5 coaches with titles. That's more coaches with titles than any program except UCLA, (UK obviously), UNC, IU. I'd say if any program has withstood the test of time, it's Kentucky. I'm not worried about us not being a part of the landscape of college basketball.

Assembly Hall
05-29-2012, 08:55 AM
My bad, I thought it was his third year. I guess my eyes aren't what they used to be. I stand by the other part though -- only one NCAA win in his other eight years combined. I think the jury is still out on what kind of coach Crean is. I know IU fans won't agree with that opinion, but I wouldn't expect them to either.

I cant argue with the other 8, other than to say that I dont think they made the NCAA in 4 of them. In Cal's first 5 years at Memphis he had 1 tournament win. As an IU fan, I agree the jury is still out on him at IU. Nothing short of a championship will solidify that, a couple would make him a legend! But as of right now he has the program back on track.

Assembly Hall
05-29-2012, 09:08 AM
I wish the 90's were every decade. 93 final four, 96 title, 97 runner up, 98 championship as well as an E8 in 92, 95 (?), and 99.

And I most definitely have an appreciation....my "growing up" as a uk fan started during Tubby time. Aka the longest final four drought in uk history. I have the vaguest of memories of the 96 team, and that's probably just from watching game tape.

Btw, Kentucky has 5 coaches with titles. That's more coaches with titles than any program except UCLA, (UK obviously), UNC, IU. I'd say if any program has withstood the test of time, it's Kentucky. I'm not worried about us not being a part of the landscape of college basketball.


Tubby time. AKA the long final four drought in UK history? I dont think so.

Yes, UK has 5 different coaches with titles. 3 of those coaches have won in the last 20 years. UCLA has more titles but only 2 coaches are responsible for them. Kentucky has withstood the test of time. But I would also say that Kansas, North Carolina, UCLA, and IU have as well.

LexRedsFan
05-29-2012, 12:14 PM
Tubby time. AKA the long final four drought in UK history? I dont think so.

Really? So, you don't think fact is true?

1942, 1948, 1949, 1951, 1958, 1966, 1975, 1978, 1984, 1993, 1996, 1997, 1998, 2011, 2012


Yes, UK has 5 different coaches with titles. 3 of those coaches have won in the last 20 years. UCLA has more titles but only 2 coaches are responsible for them. Kentucky has withstood the test of time. But I would also say that Kansas, North Carolina, UCLA, and IU have as well.

UK and UNC are the big TWO, IMO. IU had been the "time tested" until recently -- assuming they get back soon, I would say they still have. But if IU goes another 5, 10 years without a title? 1987-2017 would be a long gap for a national power... KU is bizarre -- all that tradition, Final Fours...and only 3 titles to show for it. And UCLA's "time tested" is nowhere near the other 4, IMO.

Not to mention I like to make fun of Indiana because you're in the UK thread, and that's what I'm going to give you here. :laugh:

Assembly Hall
05-29-2012, 01:04 PM
"Tubby Time" was not the longest Final Four drought in UK history.

UK had droughts of not winning championships. All the programs do. But it is not the measuring stick for a time tested program. UK, KU, UNC, UCLA, and IU's dominance go back to the start of the NCAA tournament. Those 5 schools have always been there in the NCAA landscape, for nearly 75 years. UK, to me, is the most storied program out there. Followed by KU, UNC, and IU. UCLA didnt really become a force until the 60's, but they were there in the 40's and 50's. Several programs have developed since the early to mid 70's and several others have fallen off the map. Duke, Louisville, and Uconn have been built into powerhouses but only Louisville had multiple coaches.

To me, having multiple coaches at a school and still win means a heckuva lot. Not only winning championships but being in contention throughout the decades.

LexRedsFan
05-29-2012, 01:05 PM
"Tubby Time" was not the longest Final Four drought in UK history.

Yes, it was. 1998-2011 was the longest drought in history. I just posted the years for you.


UK, to me, is the most storied program out there. Followed by KU, UNC, and IU. UCLA didnt really become a force until the 60's, but they were there in the 40's and 50's. Several programs have developed since the early to mid 70's and several others have fallen off the map.

I go:

1. Kentucky
2. North Carolina
3. Kansas
4. UCLA
5. Indiana
6. Duke


There's a substantial drop-off after those, but I'd go with some combo of Louisville, Syarcuse, Michigan State, Arizona, UConn (Reluctantly) there.

Assembly Hall
05-29-2012, 01:51 PM
I see what you are saying now Lex, although Tubby wasnt there for all of those years.

Cant argue with your rankings other than UCLA, but they deserve to be up there.

Duke didnt win the title until K got there, although they had some pretty good teams before he got there.

I would put Ohio St up there.

New York Red
05-29-2012, 02:38 PM
I'd have to do some number crunching, but I don't think I can put Ohio State in my all-time top ten. Their entire history is basically the Jerry Lucas/John Havlicek era (three seasons) and the Thad Matta era (8 seasons) . Between those two eras they went something like 40-45 years with just a single Final Four appearance and they lost that game. With only one national championship, and that coming 52 years ago, they have to be somewhere outside the top ten.

Assembly Hall
05-29-2012, 03:06 PM
I'd have to do some number crunching, but I don't think I can put Ohio State in my all-time top ten. Their entire history is basically the Jerry Lucas/John Havlicek era (three seasons) and the Thad Matta era (8 seasons) . Between those two eras they went something like 40-45 years with just a single Final Four appearance and they lost that game. With only one national championship, and that coming 52 years ago, they have to be somewhere outside the top ten.

I dont know New York. Better look up their history. My numbers show 11 FF appearances spanning the entire time of the NCAA tournament. Arizona, Louisville, and Syracuse cant say that.

LexRedsFan
05-29-2012, 03:23 PM
I dont know New York. Better look up their history. My numbers show 11 FF appearances spanning the entire time of the NCAA tournament. Arizona, Louisville, and Syracuse cant say that.

UofL has 9. The title combined with being 16th in all-time wins instead of 36th where OSU ranks puts them ahead, IMO. Louisville's winning % is also substantially higher. But OSU does have a surprisingly proud tradition, like you note.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_teams_with_the_most_victories_in_NCAA_Divi sion_I_men%27s_college_basketball

Assembly Hall
05-29-2012, 03:43 PM
UofL has 9. The title combined with being 16th in all-time wins instead of 36th where OSU ranks puts them ahead, IMO. Louisville's winning % is also substantially higher. But OSU does have a surprisingly proud tradition, like you note.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_teams_with_the_most_victories_in_NCAA_Divi sion_I_men%27s_college_basketball

Louisville didnt do alot until Crum became coach. Also take into account the fact that the Bucks have played in the Big Ten. Lex, back in the old days, you had to win your conference in order to go to "The Dance". If you didnt win it, you didnt go. The "at-larges" as we call them today went to Independents.

New York Red
05-29-2012, 10:05 PM
Ohio State has been to the tournament 28 times, so they've had their chances. Yes, 11 Final Fours, but like I said most of their success has come in two brief periods -- '60, '61 and '62 with Lucas and Havlicek, and the Thad Matta years, starting in '05. In the 43 years between, two Final Fours. They've become really good under Matta, but still their only championship year was 52 years ago. That's a really long drought. OSU's FF total would easily put them in the top ten, but championships carry much more weight, in my opinion.

Assembly Hall
05-30-2012, 08:21 AM
I can understand that but you have left a couple of "eras" out of your post. The Bucks were dang good under Eldon Miller in the early 80's with Kellogg and Williams. And the early 90's under Randy Ayres with Jimmy Jackson. I do believe they also made a FF under Jim O'Brien in the "modern era". IMO they should be in the Top Ten regardless of the number of championships. Look at UConn, they werent squat until the mid to late 80's and have multiple championships. Championships do carry weight but when you talk the best programs of all-time, I think being competitive over a span of 60-70 years should be weighed into the equation as well as FF appearances and tournament wins. It is a great topic to debate.

jmac
05-30-2012, 10:35 PM
Looks like Davis may be a Hornet rather than a Bobcat.

cumberlandreds
05-31-2012, 09:08 AM
Looks like Davis may be a Hornet rather than a Bobcat.

Good karma for Davis going to New Orleans since that was the city of his national championship.
The Hornets also have the 10th pick. You think they might take Terrence Jones with that one? Gilchrist will be gone by then and Jones should be around. I think 10th is about where he is projected in the draft.

Assembly Hall
05-31-2012, 10:10 AM
Lucky Davis! Charlotte is absolutely the worst franchise in the NBA. The Hornets have a good owner now and a pretty decent young team. Hopefully Davis can help my boy out down there.

LexRedsFan
05-31-2012, 11:57 AM
Still sort of about UK, so I'm going to ask your guys' thoughts about this. My roommates and I last night debated that Charlotte might be better swapping the #2 pick (MKG? Beal?) for #6 and #11 from Portland, maybe next year's first rounder or another player as well. They need A LOT of help. That one non-Davis player can't provide.

Scrap Irony
05-31-2012, 12:24 PM
Still sort of about UK, so I'm going to ask your guys' thoughts about this. My roommates and I last night debated that Charlotte might be better swapping the #2 pick (MKG? Beal?) for #6 and #11 from Portland, maybe next year's first rounder or another player as well. They need A LOT of help. That one non-Davis player can't provide.

Were I Charlotte, that's exactly what I'd do.

But why would Portland do that?

They don't need Thomas Robinson, Kidd-Gilchrist, or Bradley Beal, as they have Aldridge at power forward.

They need a center badly-- perhaps Andre Drummond at #6 or Tyler Zeller at #11?

LexRedsFan
05-31-2012, 07:34 PM
Were I Charlotte, that's exactly what I'd do.

But why would Portland do that?

They don't need Thomas Robinson, Kidd-Gilchrist, or Bradley Beal, as they have Aldridge at power forward.

They need a center badly-- perhaps Andre Drummond at #6 or Tyler Zeller at #11?

True. We were just discussing it from Chartlotte's end, Portland doesn't really need anything at 2 they couldn't get at 6.

Assembly Hall
05-31-2012, 08:10 PM
You fellas talking NBA got me to thinking about a discussion I saw on an IU board. I will put it in the UK context in the form of a question.

Who would you consider as the best NBA player that went to UK?

dabvu2498
05-31-2012, 09:36 PM
Who would you consider as the best NBA player that went to UK?

In the "modern" NBA, Dan Issel. Cliff Hagan, Louie Dampier (ABA), Jamal Mashburn would be my next 3. After that the pickins are a lil slim. Rondo will climb the list if he keeps it up. Too soon to tell on anyone else.

Assembly Hall
05-31-2012, 09:58 PM
In the "modern" NBA, Dan Issel. Cliff Hagan, Louie Dampier (ABA), Jamal Mashburn would be my next 3. After that the pickins are a lil slim. Rondo will climb the list if he keeps it up. Too soon to tell on anyone else.

That's the kicker dabvu......NBA. Dan Issel by far would be my first assumption. But he did alot of his playing in the ABA.

dabvu2498
05-31-2012, 10:05 PM
That's the kicker dabvu......NBA. Dan Issel by far would be my first assumption. But he did alot of his playing in the ABA.


True. But he scored over half his points after the merger. Unlike Dampier, who was almost exclusively an ABA guy.

Assembly Hall
05-31-2012, 10:11 PM
True. But he scored over half his points after the merger. Unlike Dampier, who was almost exclusively an ABA guy.

Cant argue that. And I would say that for what "little" I know about UK b-ball he would be my choice.

WMR
05-31-2012, 10:13 PM
Frank Ramsey won 7 World Championships with the Boston Celtics.

dabvu2498
05-31-2012, 10:19 PM
Frank Ramsey won 7 World Championships with the Boston Celtics.

True. The 3 Hall of Famers from UK are Hagan, Issel and Ramsey.

Assembly Hall
05-31-2012, 10:26 PM
True. The 3 Hall of Famers from UK are Hagan, Issel and Ramsey.

Only 3????????? Wow.

Assembly Hall
05-31-2012, 10:27 PM
Frank Ramsey won 7 World Championships with the Boston Celtics.

Everybody that was on the Celtics won World Championships in those days.;)

LexRedsFan
05-31-2012, 10:28 PM
It's a lot like Alabama football. They've had just the 1 Heisman winner, Ingram. We've had the 1 POY, Davis.* The two programs have a TON of similarities if you look deep. Neither of us has really been the "sexy" program until the past few years, but we've both won. We both had all-time greats: Bear and Rupp. We both have monster fanbases that take a lot of flack. Both of our current coaches are controversial, and we've both had a few "Troubles" in the past.

*Wall won 1 of the major awards, but that's like claiming Draymond Green as this year's POY.

cumberlandreds
06-01-2012, 09:10 AM
You fellas talking NBA got me to thinking about a discussion I saw on an IU board. I will put it in the UK context in the form of a question.

Who would you consider as the best NBA player that went to UK?

Issell is the best I saw. He could score with anyone and he was a tough dude too. Mashburn is a close 2nd. If he could have been more healthy he may have surpassed Issell. Louie Dampier did mainly play in the ABA but he could have been just as good in the NBA. He could flat out shoot the ball. He was a great 3 point shooter in the ABA and the 3 point line was further back than in the NBA. I saw Dampier play in an exhibition game against the UK seniors from the 1986 team. He was about 50 then and he could still stoke it. He and Kenny Walker had to have both scored 40+ in that game. They were equally phenominal offensively that day.

Assembly Hall
06-01-2012, 11:52 AM
It's a lot like Alabama football. They've had just the 1 Heisman winner, Ingram. We've had the 1 POY, Davis.* The two programs have a TON of similarities if you look deep. Neither of us has really been the "sexy" program until the past few years, but we've both won. We both had all-time greats: Bear and Rupp. We both have monster fanbases that take a lot of flack. Both of our current coaches are controversial, and we've both had a few "Troubles" in the past.

*Wall won 1 of the major awards, but that's like claiming Draymond Green as this year's POY.

If that was directed at my comment that I was surprised by only 3 UK players being in the NBA HOF then I dont follow your thought pattern. The college game does not translate to the next level especially in basketball. But comparing Alabama in football to UK in basketball is like comparing apples to beach balls. There are 22 regular starters on a football team and that doesnt include special team players such as punters and place kickers. To equate Heismans to POY awards makes no sense to me. The Heisman is the Heisman the POY is speculative at best because so many organizations or media outlets have their own voting. And BTW, Alabama's success in the NFL not only dips into the Hall-of-Fame, but also shows up on Super Bowl rings on multiple starting QB's that were Bama alums.

Assembly Hall
06-01-2012, 05:38 PM
LOL......welcome back to the state of Indiana, UK fans. I just saw the pairings for the SEC/Big East challenge. A road game to South Bend. I will be in attendence!!!!!!!!!:thumbup:

WMR
06-22-2012, 03:07 PM
I hope LeBron comes back to Rupp Arena next season to do the Y again and brings his Championship trophy and MVP trophy with him. :D

#LaFamilia

BTW: LeBron winning a Chip will only help UK recruiting. :beerme:

Assembly Hall
06-22-2012, 05:40 PM
I hope LeBron comes back to Rupp Arena next season to do the Y again and brings his Championship trophy and MVP trophy with him. :D

#LaFamilia

BTW: LeBron winning a Chip will only help UK recruiting. :beerme:

How so?

WMR
06-23-2012, 11:52 AM
How so?

THE LEBRON 9: SHOE SCIENCE -- VERSATILITY - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7f7O96t4SLQ&feature=player_embedded#)!

That's just for you, young fella.

Assembly Hall
06-23-2012, 12:06 PM
So King James saying he likes Cal and visa versa, coupled with the fact that he now has a ring and a line of basketball sneakers equates to helping Kentucky with recruiting?

Forgive me, but the last time I checked UK was doing just fine. But hopefully your formula works....because if it does maybe D-Wade getting his second chip will help the recruiting at IU????????:D

LexRedsFan
06-23-2012, 12:11 PM
Does D-Wade do this for IU?

http://www.nationofblue.com/content/attachments/3858d1325467424-lebron_y.jpg

Assembly Hall
06-23-2012, 12:38 PM
No, but Wade actually played for Crean. I am sure we will be seeing more of him in Bloomington in the future. It would be a helluva lot better than seeing Isiah Thomas!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Razor Shines
06-23-2012, 02:39 PM
No, but Wade actually played for Crean. I am sure we will be seeing more of him in Bloomington in the future. It would be a helluva lot better than seeing Isiah Thomas!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I can't imagine Wade ever putting on a red sweater. He may go to neutral site games but I doubt he cares much about IU.


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Assembly Hall
06-23-2012, 02:53 PM
I can't imagine Wade ever putting on a red sweater. He may go to neutral site games but I doubt he cares much about IU.


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Oh really? Hmmmmmmmmmmm. He cares about IU because Crean is there. Of course Cal coached James in college, so I understand the the bond.

Razor Shines
06-23-2012, 04:12 PM
I think you're missing the point. James didn't play anywhere in college so he has no allegiance to worry about, he can openly support UK, which clearly he already does. So your sarcastic comment about his bond doesn't make any sense. Yes, Wade played for Crean but obviously not at IU, so while he supports Crean he's not showing up in Bloomington in IU gear.


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dabvu2498
06-23-2012, 04:22 PM
Does D-Wade do this for IU?


Nope, but he will go to OSU games with Bronny.

http://www2.pictures.zimbio.com/gi/LeBron+James+Duke+v+Ohio+State+pDFR9qKazCWl.jpg

Assembly Hall
06-24-2012, 09:17 AM
I think you're missing the point. James didn't play anywhere in college so he has no allegiance to worry about, he can openly support UK, which clearly he already does. So your sarcastic comment about his bond doesn't make any sense. Yes, Wade played for Crean but obviously not at IU, so while he supports Crean he's not showing up in Bloomington in IU gear.


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I am not missing any point. And my comment does make sense. James has no ties to UK. Wade does with IU for the simple fact he played college ball for Crean. 'Bron can change his allegiance at any given time, as you stated he has none to worry about. But Wade will always be tied to Crean, just as Rose will always be tied to Cal. Just sayin'.

BTW.......Wade was in Bloomington while the Heat were playing the Pacers........

LexRedsFan
06-24-2012, 01:47 PM
OK, so if we want to play the Wade was coached by Crean card..

It just so happens Cal coached an MVP in college. ;)

Assembly Hall
06-24-2012, 02:22 PM
OK, so if we want to play the Wade was coached by Crean card..

It just so happens Cal coached an MVP in college. ;)

Not playing any card. The current discussion was about James helping UK recruiting. I just said I hope WMR was right and that Wade would help IU. It has nothing to do with who played for who.

BTW Lex, it just so happens that Crean coached a guy that has won two rings. I dont understand the "MVP" reference.

Assembly Hall
06-25-2012, 08:49 AM
Pretty interesting read I found on CBS the other day. Thought you UK fans would enjoy it............

http://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/story/19377156/why-kentucky-starts-no-1-nobody-else-has-uks-roster-and-calipari

Razor Shines
06-25-2012, 01:19 PM
Pretty interesting read I found on CBS the other day. Thought you UK fans would enjoy it............

http://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/story/19377156/why-kentucky-starts-no-1-nobody-else-has-uks-roster-and-calipari

Yeah, can't argue too much with that article.


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WMR
06-25-2012, 02:03 PM
Now let me pay you Hoosiers a compliment: Zeller has a HELL OF a chance to win NPOY, IMO. Ferrell should also help in getting Zeller the ball in spots where he can score it more effectively/easily. Clear B10 favorite.

I do think Michigan will be a stiff challenge for you guys in the B10.

Isn't this supposed to be Tubby's best team ever at Minny? :lol:

I think Ohio State will take a step back next year.

What do you guys think, particularly what I posted about your rivals in the B10? Is there a team I'm leaving out who could be a contender?