PDA

View Full Version : What to do with Scott Rolen?



Vottomatic
05-12-2012, 11:46 AM
Geez. Batting below his weight headed toward the middle of May.

Who out there thinks this Reds team is better than the Cardinals right now?

DGullett35
05-12-2012, 11:54 AM
Even thought he's no more than a solid defensive replacement this year with the Reds, hes not going to go anywhere IMO. As long as hes healthy he will start his 120 games or so. Id like to see Frazier play more. He seems to be better offensively than Ludwick and def. Rolen

Vottomatic
05-12-2012, 11:57 AM
The Reds seem to have some obvious holes that they're unwilling to fix/replace. It will most likely bite them in the butt.

dougdirt
05-12-2012, 12:08 PM
The Reds seem to have some obvious holes that they're unwilling to fix/replace. It will most likely bite them in the butt.

And that is why you don't sign guys past 35. You pay them like they are still 29, then can't do anything with them and have to play them when they aren't good.

ddrone
05-12-2012, 12:23 PM
Rolens a possible hall of famer. He's gonna play 120 games or so with Frazier giving him some relief.The dusty is not gonna disrespect him by not playing him.

As soon as we pick up a left fielder(and I believe we will. At least we better)

Scott will be moved down in the line up, so his slow bat will not be so obvious (as in hitting 5 and leaving a small army on the base paths)

Superdude
05-12-2012, 12:24 PM
This situation's getting ugly. Rolen hasn't caught up to any kind of fastball since June of 2010. With this struggling offense, that black hole at third base just becomes more glaring.

edabbs44
05-12-2012, 12:37 PM
And that is why you don't sign guys past 35. You pay them like they are still 29, then can't do anything with them and have to play them when they aren't good.

You'll likely have trouble attracting premier players with that philosophy as well.

Benihana
05-12-2012, 12:49 PM
In an ideal world, they'd let Frazier play every other day for the next two months to see if he can be an everyday player. If he can, great. If he can't, see of the Sox will cover Youkilis' salary and bring him home at the deadline.

Orenda
05-12-2012, 12:50 PM
And that is why you don't sign guys past 35. You pay them like they are still 29, then can't do anything with them and have to play them when they aren't good.

Carlos Beltran just turned 35 and he's raking. Maybe as a general rule that applies, but you still have to look case by case.


I think Rolen is still better than his current production, I'm sure he's pressing a bit.

hebroncougar
05-12-2012, 12:52 PM
In an ideal world, they'd let Frazier play every other day for the next two months to see if he can be an everyday player. If he can, great. If he can't, see of the Sox will cover Youkilis' salary and bring him home at the deadline.

My sentiments exactly. And tell Rolen he can coach here as long as he wants after he retires at the end of the year.

oneupper
05-12-2012, 12:58 PM
This situation's getting ugly. Rolen hasn't caught up to any kind of fastball since June of 2010. With this struggling offense, that black hole at third base just becomes more glaring.

Even before that. If you look at those games in early 2010, he was feasting off breaking balls. The league got wise and began to feed him mostly heat.

Kc61
05-12-2012, 01:00 PM
Rolens a possible hall of famer. He's gonna play 120 games or so with Frazier giving him some relief.The dusty is not gonna disrespect him by not playing him.

As soon as we pick up a left fielder(and I believe we will. At least we better)

Scott will be moved down in the line up, so his slow bat will not be so obvious (as in hitting 5 and leaving a small army on the base paths)

Yeah, while I might say it a bit differently, I basically agree with this.

Rolen will be a Red all year, will play his share of games, will field his position, but isn't going to be a big positive offensively. Cairo and Frazier can play third, presumably they will get some games in there, and hopefully on balance the position will provide some offense.

But Heisey and Ludwick are not Scott Rolen. Nor do they have the potential of Drew Stubbs. So of all the "troubled" positions offensively, LF is the one crying out for a new player.

The Reds OBP against righties is very poor. They should look for a left fielder who can get on base against righties. Doesn't have to be a super star, doesn't have to have big power. IMO should be left handed or a switch hitter. But most critically, somebody with good OBP skills against RHP.

Hopefully Rolen, Cairo, and Frazier will provide some third base production as the year goes on, I don't see the position changing hands this season.

757690
05-12-2012, 01:03 PM
.197 BABIP. That does not lineup with his LD or contact rate. He won't be OPSing .900 again, but he should end up in the .700-.750 range, which, with his defense, will be fine.

He had a bad night last night, but for the past few weeks, he's been hitting the ball well, just into gloves.

Raisor
05-12-2012, 01:18 PM
If I'm in charge, he becomes a PH/defensive replacement. If he doesn't like it he gets his release. There is a 0 percent chance of any of that happening

SunDeck
05-12-2012, 01:59 PM
I've only seen him hit a couple times this year and I didn't think he looked slow. In fact, I thought he really tagged a couple, just directly at someone. It's hard to believe that Walt, Dusty and Rolen are not aware that he's close to the end and he seems to me like the kind of guy who is smart enough to know he should only be in the lineup as long as he's useful. Obviously, I don't know that for sure, but he has always struck me as having a very astute and wise state of mind about the game and it seems to me that he probably knows what the situation is. Clearly, he's done loads for this team by being around and it would be great to see him contribute on the field, but having him around as a mentor, teaching guys about maintaining a winning mindset is very important. Some of the players have even said as much, if I remember correctly.

RedlegJake
05-12-2012, 02:16 PM
Rolen will be OPSing over .700 by years end and I'll bet on it. His BABIP is below .200 which is ridiculous. His bat doesn't look slow to me, and he's bashed the ball in the games I've seen - just right at people. He isn't the dangerous hitter he used to be but he still has gap power and he'll be ok. Right now he's having some horrendous bad luck. Also he is no longer a cleanup hitter or a guy who belongs at the top of the order. Having him play every day is also kind of stupid, imo, you give older guys a day off once a week or so not play them every day.

corkedbat
05-12-2012, 02:32 PM
At the very least, I'd be working on who our third baseman will be next year (if not sooner)and start thinking about doing something about it. I'd also give Frazier as many ABs as Rolen (if not more).

kaldaniels
05-12-2012, 02:36 PM
Phantom DL to give Fraizer a test drive?

Blitz Dorsey
05-12-2012, 02:58 PM
Phantom DL to give Fraizer a test drive?

Bingo!

jhu1321
05-12-2012, 06:21 PM
Doesn't sound phantom. Getting shoulder examined this evening. Can't imagine if he would need surgery again him going through with it. Could be the end for Scott.

Kc61
05-12-2012, 06:32 PM
If Scott needs to go on the DL, then Todd Frazier will have his opportunity. I know Cairo will play some, but Todd will have his chance to own this position if he does really well. Let's hope Todd hits and fields well if he gets the gig.

Now, to get way ahead of the game, who would join the 25 man roster? (Sorry Scott, I know it's premature, just like to speculate.)

One possibility is to bring back Willie Harris. Willie is now at AAA. The other obvious choice is Mike Costanzo (not sure I spelled it correctly) who hits lefty and plays third. He feasts on righties as I understand.

More intrigue on the Cincinnati Reds.

RedsManRick
05-12-2012, 06:33 PM
I'd be much more inclined to write off his bat if his BABIP was north of .200. Small samples are bigger than people think.

powersackers
05-12-2012, 06:56 PM
I hope Dr. K finds nothing seriously wrong. May just be a strain in scar tissue and he needs some recovery time.

Vottomatic
05-12-2012, 07:51 PM
What to do with Scott Rolen?

Put him on the DL with a shoulder strain.

Seriously though. Likeable guy that we all wish would find his hitting stroke. Nobody wishes bad for this guy.

RedsManRick
05-12-2012, 08:06 PM
From C Trent Rosencrans on Twitter

#Reds place Scott Rolen on DL (shoulder), recall INF Mike Costanzo

Rolen: 'I’m hurting, I’m in pain. I’m not healthy right now. As much as I want to help the team, I’m hurting the team. ' #Reds

No need for a phantom DL stint. Constanzo up. Bet Willie Harris is a bit ticked off.

Vottomatic
05-12-2012, 08:22 PM
It sounds like Scott knew he was hurting but thought he could play through it. I'll give him credit for stepping aside for the betterment of the team.

mth123
05-12-2012, 08:32 PM
This is not really shocking. His shoulder has been hurt since 2005. He's had three previous surgeries and it hasn't fixed it. Any thought that this last surgery (his 4th) would be any different was just pie-in-the-sky fantasy.

He has to start his swing sooner now which makes him a dead duck against a RH breaking ball and that's why we've seen his lack of success against RHP. He can still help defensively and against LHP if he can stand the pain, but the team needs a righty killer to pair with him. They dealt the best option for a failed minor league starter who is showing the typical bump in relief. I hope he keeps it up, but we've seen this movie before. Once the league adjusts to his new found stuff (or becomes familiar with him in general) I'll be interested to see if he still looks so good. Hopefully Mike Costanzo can get on base against RHP. He can play 3B.

757690
05-12-2012, 08:41 PM
This is not really shocking. His shoulder has been hurt since 2005. He's had three previous surgeries and it hasn't fixed it. Any thought that this last surgery (hs 4th) would be any different was just pie-in-the-sky fantasy.

He has to start his swing sooner now which makes him a dead duck against a RH breaking ball and that's why we've seen his lack of success against RHP. He can still help defensively and against LHP if he can stand the pain, but the team needs a right killer to pair with him. They dealt the best option for a failed minor leaguse starter who is showing the typicla bump in relief. I hope he keeps it up, but we've seen this movie before. Once the league adjusts to his new found stuff (or becomes familiar with him in general) I'll be interested to see if he still looks so good. Hopefully Mike Costanzo can get on base against RHP. He can play 3B.

Juan Francisco:

.269 OBP - 17 K - 3 BB 3 Errors

Might as well have Wily Mo play third lol

mth123
05-12-2012, 09:11 PM
Juan Francisco:

.269 OBP - 17 K - 3 BB 3 Errors

Might as well have Wily Mo play third lol

OTOH, he has a .756 OPS versus RHP which would make him better than anyone not named Votto or Bruce in the line-up and he's a better defender than Frazier.

I like Todd as a bench player who moves around, but I really don't want to see him in there at 3B every day or in the line-uo with his loopy swing against RHP too often. I hope Costanzo gets his share of PT.

kaldaniels
05-12-2012, 09:27 PM
From C Trent Rosencrans on Twitter


No need for a phantom DL stint. Constanzo up. Bet Willie Harris is a bit ticked off.

Who's to say the Phantom didn't pay Rolen a visit? ;)

cinreds21
05-12-2012, 09:28 PM
Pretty sure Rolen could afford a Phantom if he wanted one.

Big Klu
05-13-2012, 01:23 AM
Who's to say the Phantom didn't pay Rolen a visit? ;)

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTA2ejV9p2psWoEi1D0hxO5-QXRKqBiqWIWt2bk7Mk1gdarck_J&t=1

Vottomatic
07-08-2012, 08:32 PM
Bad day at Petco for Scott. Yikes.

RedEye
07-08-2012, 08:36 PM
Rolen is one of the all-time great 3B. That said, it is painful to watch him play this season -- at least at the dish. With an apparently good alternative in-house (Frazier), it would seem to be time for Rolen's playing time to diminish. It's a delicate situation, though, and one that Dusty (for all his other faults) may be best qualified to handle as a great "player's manager."

Raisor
07-08-2012, 08:41 PM
he has 7 hits since april 29.

ok, to be fair, that's 18 games

Virginia Beach Reds
07-08-2012, 09:44 PM
Needs to sit full time and pinch hit occasionally and spot start. I don't think he would disagree at this point...watching him at the dish this year has been miserable. He's still a great guy and likely Hall of Famer. Could provide some utility as a player coach type. I dunno. Just can't continue to put him out there if I'm running this team.

OldXOhio
07-08-2012, 11:07 PM
I'd think Scott could get cofortable with retiring due to health reasons instead of having to admit he can't get it done any longer. Just watching him jog to first after getting plunked in the 8th, you can see how problematic his back is.

If he does retire, I'm glad we got to see him in Cincy red, albeit for a short time.

DGullett35
07-08-2012, 11:57 PM
I know Scott would never admit this but he should just go to Dusty privately and tell him that hes hurting the team and that Frazier should get most of the starts. I dont see him retiring but I wouldn't object to the guy getting 1 or 2 starts a week and being a defensive replacement in tight games. For this to happen IMO Cairo would have to go, and Ive always been a big fan of Cairo. To tell you the truth I would rather have Cairo than Rolen. They seem to be the same player for this years Reds, and we don't really need 2 aging utility IF that cannot hit a lick

Vottomatic
07-09-2012, 12:18 AM
If Scott continues to struggle at the plate badly, I hope he does the right thing for himself and the team.

mdccclxix
07-09-2012, 01:30 AM
I think Scott looked better on a couple of swings today and he got out ahead of a few pitches. To me, he does need some timing to come back and I'd be okay with him getting starts for a little while longer. Todd's been great in any kind of role he's been given.

fearofpopvol1
07-09-2012, 04:41 AM
I don't see Scott retiring until the season ends. If he hangs up the cleats tomorrow, he's basically throwing away an easy $3.25M. Who in their right mind would do that (not named Gil Meche)?? All he has to do is stay on the roster.

GAC
07-09-2012, 05:36 AM
Let him mentor Frazier, with Todd getting a majority of the starts at 3B. Then hire Scotty as a coach in 2013. Problem solved. :thumbup:

Cooper
07-09-2012, 07:47 AM
He has hit into some bad luck -his BAbip is low and his LD% is average, all of his other hitting ratios are down...especially K/BB. He looks stiff and old but everybody does when the hits don't fall in.

The bigger problem is playing Rolen may mean sitting Frazier. It's obvious he needs to sit and let Frazier get the AB's - Dusty's best strength is handling these kind of situations -they can sometimes negatively effect a clubhouse and a team. Dusty deserves credit for handling this stuff and doing so with decency. He rarely gets credit for it- it's difficult to spot a situation that does not occur.

lollipopcurve
07-09-2012, 07:59 AM
Dusty's best strength is handling these kind of situations -they can sometimes negatively effect a clubhouse and a team. Dusty deserves credit for handling this stuff and doing so with decency.

Agreed. He felt Larussa pulled the plug on him (as a player in Oakland) too soon, and he's not going to do that to one of his players.

cumberlandreds
07-09-2012, 08:47 AM
Rolen needs to retire. He can't play two days in a row without his body screaming at him. His bat his slow to boot. Yesterday he couldn't catch up to a medicore fastball by Marquis. Jocketty and Bobby C need to talk with him about this during the break. If he won't retire he needs to be relagated to a once a week role just give Frazier a break and keep his bat semi ready for pinch hitting duties. Really I would hope he would opt for retirement. He's a great career and it would be a shame for him to go out on such a sad note.

Bumstead
07-09-2012, 10:55 AM
The GM has a wonderful tool that's called DFA. Give Rolen the option to retire or use the tool. He's horrible and he's certainly of little help at this point. We are trying to win and the Reds have paid him a boatload of money to do basically nothing for 3 years. Time to move on.

Bum

PuffyPig
07-09-2012, 11:05 AM
I don't see Scott retiring until the season ends. If he hangs up the cleats tomorrow, he's basically throwing away an easy $3.25M. Who in their right mind would do that (not named Gil Meche)?? All he has to do is stay on the roster.

If he went to the Reds and said he didn't think he was helping the team , and was willing to retire, the Reds would still pay him. Otherwise, he wouldn't simply retire.

In Gil meche's case, the Royals wanted him to continue pitching, he didn't. So his only option was to retire.

If the Reds really want Rolen around, they could make him make the same choice. I doubt they would. They would allow him to retire, and still pay him out.

westofyou
07-09-2012, 11:08 AM
I don't see Scott retiring until the season ends. If he hangs up the cleats tomorrow, he's basically throwing away an easy $3.25M. Who in their right mind would do that (not named Gil Meche)?? All he has to do is stay on the roster.
Mike Schmidt?

REDREAD
07-09-2012, 11:25 AM
I agree. I don't think money is an issue.

If Rolen thinks he's toast, he's not going to hang around to collect paychecks.

Not that I know first hand, but I'm guessing that if you had a HOF career, it's hard to realize that your career is over.. We see it all the time with other players.. they hang around a year or two too long. (Steve Carlton, etc)

I just don't think money is that important to Rolen.
He sees himself having back and shoulder problems.. He thinks he can play through them and things will get better. Maybe he's right, I don't know.

I'm just saying, hypothetically if Rolen was done and he knew it, the Reds would have no problem paying him the rest of his salary (or DLing him the rest of the year) so he could get paid.

DFAing a player like Rolen would be classless, IMO. Again, this is not a computer game. Bob and Walt have put a lot of effort into trying to make this franchise attractive for players to come here without overpaying them. Why jepordize that? If Rolen drops off the roster, it's not like the Reds have a legitimate MLer to call up in his place.. Constanzo is worse than Rolen with a broken leg.

I think the difficult decision would be if the Reds added a player like Pierre. Then there becomes more of a roster crunch..

George Anderson
07-09-2012, 11:36 AM
I don't see Scott retiring until the season ends. If he hangs up the cleats tomorrow, he's basically throwing away an easy $3.25M. Who in their right mind would do that (not named Gil Meche)?? All he has to do is stay on the roster.

I thought MLB players had guaranteed contracts.

Are they void if they retire?

Bumstead
07-09-2012, 11:37 AM
I agree. I don't think money is an issue.

If Rolen thinks he's toast, he's not going to hang around to collect paychecks.

Not that I know first hand, but I'm guessing that if you had a HOF career, it's hard to realize that your career is over.. We see it all the time with other players.. they hang around a year or two too long. (Steve Carlton, etc)

I just don't think money is that important to Rolen.
He sees himself having back and shoulder problems.. He thinks he can play through them and things will get better. Maybe he's right, I don't know.

I'm just saying, hypothetically if Rolen was done and he knew it, the Reds would have no problem paying him the rest of his salary (or DLing him the rest of the year) so he could get paid.

DFAing a player like Rolen would be classless, IMO. Again, this is not a computer game. Bob and Walt have put a lot of effort into trying to make this franchise attractive for players to come here without overpaying them. Why jepordize that? If Rolen drops off the roster, it's not like the Reds have a legitimate MLer to call up in his place.. Constanzo is worse than Rolen with a broken leg.

I think the difficult decision would be if the Reds added a player like Pierre. Then there becomes more of a roster crunch..

They overpaid Rolen for 3 years...this is about becoming a winning franchise, not a franchise that feels sorry for players who can't play anymore. It has nothing to do with video games (your constant go to insult), it has to do with fielding the best team they can. Rolen is terrible and not worth the roster spot anymore. The Reds have overpaid him for 3 years when they should have let him walk after the "rental" period. If he stays, we will have to watch Dusty try to make him feel good by playing him when he doesn't belong out there and isn't capable of helping the team by playing. He would make a fine coach I imagine, but you can stick a fork in him cause he's done as a player.

Bum

cumberlandreds
07-09-2012, 11:55 AM
I thought MLB players had guaranteed contracts.

Are they void if they retire?

I'm pretty sure they are not obligated to pay on a contract if a player voluntarily retires. They are only guaranteed for injury to a player.

REDREAD
07-09-2012, 12:38 PM
. Rolen is terrible and not worth the roster spot anymore. The Reds have overpaid him for 3 years when they should have let him walk after the "rental" period. If he stays, we will have to watch Dusty try to make him feel good by playing him when he doesn't belong out there and isn't capable of helping the team by playing. He would make a fine coach I imagine, but you can stick a fork in him cause he's done as a player.

Bum

If the Reds did not give him the extension, he's not here for 2010, and we probably don't win a division title.. Am I wrong? Did we get him in 2009, then extend him to keep him around? I really don't see any point in trading for him in 2009, and then letting him walk.
Yes, when you extend a player, it's normal that his last year doesn't give you much "bang for the buck".. The last 2-3 years of Votto's contract are probably not going to be that pleasant to sit though.. People are going to say "He was worth 25 million when he was an MVP, but not now".

If you DFA Rolen today, who do you replace him with? Constanzo or Willie Harris? Am I missing someone? Because I don't think there's anyone at AAA that would be even a legitimate bench player.

The video game comment was not intended as an attack, I didn't mean for you to take it that way.. the point is.. in a video game, you can ignore the human element. In the real world if you start doing stuff like DFAing a respected player like Rolen against his wishes, veterans really aren't going to want to come here unless you overpay.. Think of the later Lindner years.. No one wanted to play here unless they were overpaid. We had to overpay Casey and Graves to stay here. When Carl wanted to spend money, the only "big" FA they could land was Milton, and at a massive overpay.
The Ludwicks and Madsons would have better options and would not want to come here. Since there's no replacement for Rolen on the roster, I don't see why he should be DFAed. Like I said, if the Reds traded for Peirre and needed a 25 man roster spot, then the decision becomes something to think about.

Raisor
07-09-2012, 12:57 PM
Since none of us know what Rolen's financial status is, I find it a little amusing to see so many people think that he would walk away from 3 million. Its the last big contract he's ever going to have. With 3 mil he can provide for his family for generations. He would be a fool to let that go.

George Anderson
07-09-2012, 01:16 PM
Since none of us know what Rolen's financial status is, I find it a little amusing to see so many people think that he would walk away from 3 million. Its the last big contract he's ever going to have. With 3 mil he can provide for his family for generations. He would be a fool to let that go.

I have no desire to see Rolen retire, but considering he has already made $110,000,000 in his career, I doubt sticking around for another measly $3,000,000 will be much of a factor especially if it could hurt his legacy..

Year Age Team Salary Sources Notes
1996 21 Philadelphia Phillies $109,000 1997 Joint Exhibit 1
1997 22 Philadelphia Phillies $150,000 1997 AP survey
1998 23 Philadelphia Phillies $750,000 4/3/98 USA Today
1999 24 Philadelphia Phillies $1,000,000 4/6/99 USA Today
2000 25 Philadelphia Phillies $2,750,000 4/5/00 AP
2001 26 Philadelphia Phillies $5,500,000 4/6/01 USA Today
2002 27 Philadelphia Phillies $8,600,000 4/3/02 AP
2003 28 St. Louis Cardinals $7,625,000 4/3/03 AP
2004 29 St. Louis Cardinals $8,625,000*
2005 30 St. Louis Cardinals $11,625,000
2006 31 St. Louis Cardinals $12,456,336
2007 32 St. Louis Cardinals $12,311,637
2008 33 Toronto Blue Jays $11,625,000
2009 34 Toronto Blue Jays $11,625,000
2010 35 Cincinnati Reds $7,666,666
2011 36 Cincinnati Reds $8,166,666

2012 37 Cincinnati Reds $6,500,000
2013 Status Signed, Earliest Free Agent: 2013
Career to date (may be incomplete) $110,585,305 Does not include future salaries

dougdirt
07-09-2012, 01:20 PM
If the Reds did not give him the extension, he's not here for 2010, and we probably don't win a division title.. Am I wrong?
Yes, you are wrong. Rolen was signed through 2010 when we acquired him.

PuffyPig
07-09-2012, 01:21 PM
With 3 mil he can provide for his family for generations.

I don't think $3M can provide for a entire family for "generations", not that it makes any difference to the premise at hand.

Col_ IN Reds fan
07-09-2012, 01:29 PM
I think something will be done by the weekend.

Bumstead
07-09-2012, 01:33 PM
If the Reds did not give him the extension, he's not here for 2010, and we probably don't win a division title.. Am I wrong? Did we get him in 2009, then extend him to keep him around? I really don't see any point in trading for him in 2009, and then letting him walk.
Yes, when you extend a player, it's normal that his last year doesn't give you much "bang for the buck".. The last 2-3 years of Votto's contract are probably not going to be that pleasant to sit though.. People are going to say "He was worth 25 million when he was an MVP, but not now".

If you DFA Rolen today, who do you replace him with? Constanzo or Willie Harris? Am I missing someone? Because I don't think there's anyone at AAA that would be even a legitimate bench player.

The video game comment was not intended as an attack, I didn't mean for you to take it that way.. the point is.. in a video game, you can ignore the human element. In the real world if you start doing stuff like DFAing a respected player like Rolen against his wishes, veterans really aren't going to want to come here unless you overpay.. Think of the later Lindner years.. No one wanted to play here unless they were overpaid. We had to overpay Casey and Graves to stay here. When Carl wanted to spend money, the only "big" FA they could land was Milton, and at a massive overpay.
The Ludwicks and Madsons would have better options and would not want to come here. Since there's no replacement for Rolen on the roster, I don't see why he should be DFAed. Like I said, if the Reds traded for Peirre and needed a 25 man roster spot, then the decision becomes something to think about.

He can't play. Put him on the 60-day DL then and keep him there until the last series of the year. Since 2010 ended he has been horrible. He is not helping this team at all and he was no help last year. Sure, the options don't look that impressive but at this point at least they won't be playing instead of Frazier (regardless of how infrequent that might be currently). Playing Rolen at this point is pointless. If you can't stomach DFA-ing him then he should go on the DL and stay there. Paying the $3M isn't the question for the Reds, it's about fielding Major League Players capable of helping this team win the division at a minimum; Rolen no longer qualifies.

Clearly Walt needs to deal with the obvious holes in the offense and the "manager" that can't figure out a lineup card, etc. Rolen, on the other hand, should be a much easier problem to solve. IMHO

Bum

Kc61
07-09-2012, 01:36 PM
I think something will be done by the weekend.

I agree that something will be done soon on this ballclub, but it won't necessarily involve Rolen.

My view on Rolen is that, if he wants to continue playing, he should stay with the team this year, in a part-time playing role. He is more valuable than Cairo because he brings so much defensively and in the clubhouse.

With lots of respect to Cairo who has had a good career, he is the one I would replace.

While I think a number of moves are needed eventually, for now if the Reds would use Frazier most of the time at third; move Cairo off the roster; and add a lefty or switch hitting lead off man who plays outfield, I think the team would be improved.

OldXOhio
07-09-2012, 01:40 PM
Miguel Cairo has been a good soldier and I appreciate what he has brought to the Reds during his time here, but he's the one to go. Rolen brings much more defensively if nothing else.

The conversation with Rolen is not about him hanging them up unless it's his idea. I would think Walt would be talking to Scott about his limited 2nd half role and the leadershiip he can provide towards a division crown. Cutting him loose in mid-season would absolutely be classless and an embarrassing move for this organization.

757690
07-09-2012, 01:42 PM
Extending Rolen probably was a mistske, but it wasn't a costly one. Most importantly, it didn't stop the Reds from acquiring or extending the talent they needed to contend now or beyond.

Bumstead
07-09-2012, 01:59 PM
Extending Rolen probably was a mistske, but it wasn't a costly one. Most importantly, it didn't stop the Reds from acquiring or extending the talent they needed to contend now or beyond.

Of course it kept the Reds from acquiring talent needed to make this team better. The Reds turned an $11M 2010 season into a $25M 3 year deal of which 2 years were a waste of money. So there's $14M the Reds could have used to find a leadoff hitter, a Left Fielder and/or a Closer or Starter to make this team better and a more legitimate threat beyond just competing for the division title.

membengal
07-09-2012, 02:05 PM
A snipe hunt may be in order.

Raisor
07-09-2012, 02:07 PM
3 million, properly invested, can at LEAST provide college money for ever Rolen for the next 100 years

Bumstead
07-09-2012, 02:19 PM
A snipe hunt may be in order.

Been on one...we had fun, which was the point I guess. :D

REDREAD
07-09-2012, 02:51 PM
Ok, so I was wrong on Rolen's termination date.. he was through 2010 when we got him.

Here's the details:

Rolen's original contract called for an $11MM salary in 2010, however under the new agreement he'll earn $6MM next year, and $6.5MM in both 2011 and 2012. The Reds gain about $5MM in payroll flexibility this offseason with the move, something they sorely need.


So instead of having Rolen at 11 million in 2010. We got three years at 19 million.
Getting Rolen for 2 additional years cost us 8 million, or about 4million/year for his last 2 years.
I guess it's debatable whether that money was wasted or not, but not exactly a huge increase in cost for Rolen.
Seems like a reasonable cost/benefit risk for someone of Rolen's age..
Even if people disagree with this, Walt only "wasted" 4 million/year.

As far as the 3 million or so still owed to Rolen, I am sure if he's unable to play the rest of the year, he'd get paid.. That's the point I was trying to make. The Reds could just DL him the rest of the season instead of him officially retiring, or something like that.

fearofpopvol1
07-09-2012, 03:23 PM
If he went to the Reds and said he didn't think he was helping the team , and was willing to retire, the Reds would still pay him. Otherwise, he wouldn't simply retire.

In Gil meche's case, the Royals wanted him to continue pitching, he didn't. So his only option was to retire.

If the Reds really want Rolen around, they could make him make the same choice. I doubt they would. They would allow him to retire, and still pay him out.

I do not believe the Reds would just pay him $3.25M to retire. I could be wrong about that, but I don't see it.

fearofpopvol1
07-09-2012, 03:23 PM
Mike Schmidt?

Touche.

kaldaniels
07-09-2012, 03:33 PM
I do not believe the Reds would just pay him $3.25M to retire. I could be wrong about that, but I don't see it.

It's pretty simple. The Reds have no leverage. Though cool heads could come to a fair agreement no doubt if the Reds balk at the idea. But Scott holds all the cards.

REDREAD
07-09-2012, 04:12 PM
I do not believe the Reds would just pay him $3.25M to retire. I could be wrong about that, but I don't see it.

They may do something like put him on the DL the rest of the year as a technicallity.

I will only speak for myself, but if Rolen wakes up tommorrow and decides that his back won't let him play anymore and he has to leave the game, I doubt the Reds will try to get out of paying the rest of his salary if he wants to retire.

westofyou
07-09-2012, 04:19 PM
Touche.

Junior also walked away from with checks still coming in.

Issue with both those guys is they were on the field long enough to realize that they didn't have it. Rolen hasn't probably felt like he has on the field long enough yet... but if he can't get to that space (healthy enough to stay on the field long enough to say.. Yay or Nay) then he'll eventually have to take the path that Nick Lindstrom of the Red Wings just took... the I can't work back enough to get where I feel comfortable taking away ab's

The fact is the game is an ego trip for these guys, it will take a paradigm shift to change their POV, and we are aware that it comes for all of them at some point.

defender
07-09-2012, 04:25 PM
Ok, so I was wrong on Rolen's termination date.. he was through 2010 when we got him.

Here's the details:

So instead of having Rolen at 11 million in 2010. We got three years at 19 million.
Getting Rolen for 2 additional years cost us 8 million, or about 4million/year for his last 2 years.
I guess it's debatable whether that money was wasted or not, but not exactly a huge increase in cost for Rolen.
Seems like a reasonable cost/benefit risk for someone of Rolen's age..
Even if people disagree with this, Walt only "wasted" 4 million/year.

As far as the 3 million or so still owed to Rolen, I am sure if he's unable to play the rest of the year, he'd get paid.. That's the point I was trying to make. The Reds could just DL him the rest of the season instead of him officially retiring, or something like that.

It is 19 mil, plus the 5 mil he gave up in 2010 paid out over the 3 years interest free. The Reds could not afford Rolen in 2010 w/o restructuring the deal. I don't think they would have made the trade to have Rolen for the end of '09 and for 11 mil in 2010. I am sure the new deal was in the works when the trade was made.

reds44
07-09-2012, 04:28 PM
It's pretty simple. The Reds have no leverage. Though cool heads could come to a fair agreement no doubt if the Reds balk at the idea. But Scott holds all the cards.
I really hope Rolen doesn't retire. With how bad the bench is, Rolen has a purpose on this team. Plus, I wouldn't consider Frazier a 100% sure thing at this point, and having somebody like Rolen around can't do anything but help.

I hope the Reds announce Frazier as the main guy at 3rd, Rolen says he'll retire after the year, and he sticks around as a bench/part time player.

RedlegJake
07-09-2012, 06:56 PM
The absolute ideal would be for the Reds to convince Rolen to act as coach for Frazier, working with him on his footwork and fielding at third, accept a role as pinch hitter the rest of the way (really embrace that role preparing for it every day) and occasional starter to rest Todd here and there. Then offer him a full time coaches job with the organization after the season ends. But players have huge egos and whether Rolen would accept that the time has come for this, I don't know.

SirFelixCat
07-09-2012, 09:30 PM
The absolute ideal would be for the Reds to convince Rolen to act as coach for Frazier, working with him on his footwork and fielding at third, accept a role as pinch hitter the rest of the way (really embrace that role preparing for it every day) and occasional starter to rest Todd here and there. Then offer him a full time coaches job with the organization after the season ends. But players have huge egos and whether Rolen would accept that the time has come for this, I don't know.

We can all hope this is how it plays out. Probably unlikely, but man, that'd be great all the way around imo.

reds44
07-09-2012, 10:26 PM
The absolute ideal would be for the Reds to convince Rolen to act as coach for Frazier, working with him on his footwork and fielding at third, accept a role as pinch hitter the rest of the way (really embrace that role preparing for it every day) and occasional starter to rest Todd here and there. Then offer him a full time coaches job with the organization after the season ends. But players have huge egos and whether Rolen would accept that the time has come for this, I don't know.
THIS. And as a defensive replacement, of course.

mth123
07-11-2012, 07:44 AM
Miguel Cairo has been a good soldier and I appreciate what he has brought to the Reds during his time here, but he's the one to go. Rolen brings much more defensively if nothing else.

The conversation with Rolen is not about him hanging them up unless it's his idea. I would think Walt would be talking to Scott about his limited 2nd half role and the leadershiip he can provide towards a division crown. Cutting him loose in mid-season would absolutely be classless and an embarrassing move for this organization.

Agreed.

If Rolen is mulling retirement, I don't think its going to happen as immediately as many on here seem to think. The Reds have a long homestand coming out of the break. I'd guess Rolen would at least give himself time to play while he's close to home and see how he feels. If he's hurting, he may come to the conclusion that its not worth going on the road anymore and make some anouncement then, but I don't think there will be any anouncement this week as some have implied.

Raisor
07-11-2012, 08:22 AM
Has there been so much as a rumor that Rolen is considering retirement?

CesarGeronimo
07-11-2012, 10:47 AM
I don't think there has been any rumor of him considering retirement. The Reds' TV announcers talk about trying to work through the season in a way that has Rolen healthy and ready at the end because he'll supposedly be needed then.

Delusional, I think.

_Sir_Charles_
07-11-2012, 01:53 PM
Has there been so much as a rumor that Rolen is considering retirement?

Outside of here? Not that I've seen.

redsmetz
07-16-2012, 11:25 AM
Ken Rosenthal, during Saturday's broadcast, mentioned a conversation he had with Scott Rolen. Here's the money quote which didn't surprise me really:

“I’m not sitting here with blinders, acting like a little (baby),” Rolen told me on Friday. “(Frazier) has come up and taken advantage of the situation, gotten some playing time and produced.

“Controversy or B.S., I’m not into that. Maybe it’s interesting to some people, but it’s not really interesting to me. It’s certainly not healthy to me, to the team, him or anything else.

“He’s been swinging the bat well, contributing offensively. When I’ve been out there, to this point I’ve not been a contributing factor offensively. That’s not lost on me by any means.”

Here's the print story

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/scott-rolen-cincinnati-reds-todd-frazier-reduced-playing-team-professional-helps-rookie-071512

M2
07-16-2012, 11:42 AM
I don't think there has been any rumor of him considering retirement. The Reds' TV announcers talk about trying to work through the season in a way that has Rolen healthy and ready at the end because he'll supposedly be needed then.

Delusional, I think.

I think they're 100% correct. This team has a perilously thin bench. Rolen still flashes some tasty leather. What other strugglers on this roster are you going to give reps to in the hopes that they can find a groove and deliver some big ABs in September and October?

It may not work, but the team needs more than Votto-Phillips-Bruce-Frazier if it wants to win hardware this season.

Raisor
07-16-2012, 12:48 PM
M2,

Those guys are probably not in the system. Walt needs to strengthen the bench. Rolen would be a terrific late inning defensive replacement and PH, but he should only be starting in emergencies and to give Frazier a rest every 10 days or so. It would be different if Ludwick or Bruce could slide into Cf allowing Frazier to play LF. I'd take Rolen everyday of the week if the Reds could bench Stubbs.

M2
07-16-2012, 01:08 PM
M2,

Those guys are probably not in the system. Walt needs to strengthen the bench. Rolen would be a terrific late inning defensive replacement and PH, but he should only be starting in emergencies and to give Frazier a rest every 10 days or so. It would be different if Ludwick or Bruce could slide into Cf allowing Frazier to play LF. I'd take Rolen everyday of the week if the Reds could bench Stubbs.

I agree about the need to strengthen the bench through trade, but don't expect a lot of movement in that area.

In order to get Rolen going, you have to play him a bit. Three starts a week, at least once with Frazier in LF, and that might strike a nice balance. It could also fail mightily. It comes with the territory when you're trying to get struggling bats into some sort of groove.

Anyway, at some point this fall the Reds are going to need someone than Votto, Phillips, Bruce and Frazier to deliver during a big AB. A Scott Rolen with some semblance of a working bat would be one of the leading choices on this roster. I have no idea whether he can get there, but I understand why the Reds are trying to find out if he can.

Raisor
07-16-2012, 01:23 PM
The problem with the Get Rolen going thread is that it comes at the expense of Frazier, who is already going.

Frazier needs to be playing every single game. Ludwick is OPSing 800 so it doesn't make much sense to bench him for Frazier in LF to play Rolen.

M2
07-16-2012, 01:41 PM
The problem with the Get Rolen going thread is that it comes at the expense of Frazier, who is already going.

Frazier needs to be playing every single game. Ludwick is OPSing 800 so it doesn't make much sense to bench him for Frazier in LF to play Rolen.

I'm a little reluctant to ride those two horses until they collapse, partially because I think it's entirely too possible they'll collapse too early. Also, I believe in using the full roster. Successful teams seem to do that. They aren't the same starting 8 every day. Votto, Phillips and Bruce seem to be the three givens in this lineup. Using the other positions on the field to build some depth strikes me as a worthwhile pursuit. Depth, if you can build it, is a potent weapon.

_Sir_Charles_
07-16-2012, 06:34 PM
I'm a little reluctant to ride those two horses until they collapse, partially because I think it's entirely too possible they'll collapse too early. Also, I believe in using the full roster. Successful teams seem to do that. They aren't the same starting 8 every day. Votto, Phillips and Bruce seem to be the three givens in this lineup. Using the other positions on the field to build some depth strikes me as a worthwhile pursuit. Depth, if you can build it, is a potent weapon.

I agree. And FWIW, I think Dusty's pretty good about this. It may drive fans nuts, but if they're on the roster...they've got to get some playing time in order to be somewhat sharp when they're REALLY needed.

Brutus
07-16-2012, 06:38 PM
Ken Rosenthal, during Saturday's broadcast, mentioned a conversation he had with Scott Rolen. Here's the money quote which didn't surprise me really:

ďIím not sitting here with blinders, acting like a little (baby),Ē Rolen told me on Friday. ď(Frazier) has come up and taken advantage of the situation, gotten some playing time and produced.

ďControversy or B.S., Iím not into that. Maybe itís interesting to some people, but itís not really interesting to me. Itís certainly not healthy to me, to the team, him or anything else.

ďHeís been swinging the bat well, contributing offensively. When Iíve been out there, to this point Iíve not been a contributing factor offensively. Thatís not lost on me by any means.Ē

Here's the print story

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/scott-rolen-cincinnati-reds-todd-frazier-reduced-playing-team-professional-helps-rookie-071512

Very mature way of handling it by Rolen. Honest but humble.

mth123
07-16-2012, 09:12 PM
Problem is solved for a while. Frazier will be at 1B most of the time. Now we need rolen to have a hot streak.

HokieRed
07-16-2012, 09:16 PM
Problem is solved for a while. Frazier will be at 1B most of the time. Now we need rolen to have a hot streak.

Exactly. What to do with Scott Rolen right now is hope and pray he's feeling a little better and can resemble the Scott Rolen of old for a month.

membengal
07-16-2012, 09:38 PM
re: the thread title as of this evening's information:

Answer:

Hope he gets hot.

Gallen5862
07-16-2012, 09:40 PM
Should the Reds bring up Beau Mills? He can play 1B and 3B.

RedsManRick
07-17-2012, 07:53 AM
Players seem to expect their decline to be the losing of the ability to do the things they once did. But that's not usually how it happens; often they just can't get it done with the the same regularity. Rolen will still have nights where he goes 2 for 3 with a walk. And on those nights, he'll keep telling himself that he's got gas left in the tank. And he does. The problem is that the car can't stay in top gear for long and breaks down once a week.

Hopefully he can give us one last hurrah.

RedlegJake
07-17-2012, 08:40 PM
I hope Scott can stay healthy for three weeks and give the Reds a solid .250 BA and .320 OBP that's all I ask. A bit of power would be nice but I'll accept just some nice situational hitting - grounders to the right side, flyball man on third etc.

I know one thing about guys like Rolen - if it's there physically he'll produce it in a time like this.

mdccclxix
08-29-2012, 08:42 AM
Gosh, it's been 7 weeks and now Rolen is turning in big at bats and looking like himself. A season's a lifetime. Really happy for the guy.

Vottomatic
08-29-2012, 08:50 AM
Gosh, it's been 7 weeks and now Rolen is turning in big at bats and looking like himself. A season's a lifetime. Really happy for the guy.

Me too.

If he continues this way throughout the playoffs, I think the Reds have a dilemma on their hands.

And I think Reds management and fans, up until the AS Break, had Rolen retiring and not in their plans next season.