PDA

View Full Version : 35 games in and Mesoraco has started back to back games twice. Problem?



dougdirt
05-15-2012, 04:50 PM
After tonight, the Reds will have played 35 games and the Reds #1 prospect coming into the season and the #1 catching prospect in all of baseball will have had started 2 games in a row just twice all season. Does anyone else have a problem with this or am I just crazy in thinking this is just horrible handling of him? He is never going to "learn to catch" anyone other than Homer Bailey is he is never allowed to catch anyone but Homer Bailey.

Brutus
05-15-2012, 04:51 PM
He's got a .607 OPS, Doug. It's not like he's making the most of his opportunities.

Tommyjohn25
05-15-2012, 04:53 PM
He's got a .607 OPS, Doug. It's not like he's making the most of his opportunities.

IMO that goes hand-in-hand with not playing enough.

I don't have a problem with Hanigan, I like him in fact, but they really have to give Mes a chance to settle into a groove.

dougdirt
05-15-2012, 04:53 PM
He's got a .607 OPS, Doug. It's not like he's making the most of his opportunities.

Tough to get going when you never get more than 8 at bats in a week. He is basically a pinch hitter, except he only gets to bat when Homer Bailey is on the mound and doesn't get his strengths picked up like other pinch hitters do.

Patrick Bateman
05-15-2012, 04:55 PM
I think it's more of a credit to how Hanigan is viewed defensively. The Reds pitching has been great, and I'm sure around th clubhouse Hanigan gets quite a bit of credit for it. With the Reds trying to contend right now, I don't think it's insane that he gets lots of usage with pitchers that are comfortable with him. Mes will start getitng more playing time likely when he substantially earns it, and I'm guessing, that will happen at some point this year. I'm not saying he stinks because of his low OPS right now or anything, but sometimes they need to see the results first to displace a catcher that is working well with the staff.

I hear the concern, it's always great to use the top prospect as much as possible to enhance the development, but being a catcher, it's not as black and white. He is still getting good experience working with major league pitchers and major league staff. It's one of those situations that I'm simply fine letting it play out, mix each guy in, and let it come naturally when Mes is clearly the best option.

dougdirt
05-15-2012, 04:58 PM
I hear the concern, it's always great to use the top prospect as much as possible to enhance the development, but being a catcher, it's not as black and white. He is still getting good experience working with major league pitchers and major league staff. It's one of those situations that I'm simply fine letting it play out, mix each guy in, and let it come naturally when Mes is clearly the best option.
No, he is getting good experience working with Homer Bailey and the relievers three times every two weeks.

If Mesoraco is going to enhance his development, shouldn't he catch someone else every now and again? How is he going to 'learn to catch' Cueto, Arroyo or Latos if he, you know, has to watch from the bench and not catch them?

Brutus
05-15-2012, 05:00 PM
IMO that goes hand-in-hand with not playing enough.

I don't have a problem with Hanigan, I like him in fact, but they really have to give Mes a chance to settle into a groove.

There are a lot of guys in the history of this league that have hit well playing a lot less than Mesoraco. He starts twice a week, that's a heck of a lot better than the guys that pinch-hit once a night at most.

Blitz Dorsey
05-15-2012, 05:01 PM
I think it's more of a credit to how Hanigan is viewed defensively. The Reds pitching has been great, and I'm sure around th clubhouse Hanigan gets quite a bit of credit for it. With the Reds trying to contend right now, I don't think it's insane that he gets lots of usage with pitchers that are comfortable with him. Mes will start getitng more playing time likely when he substantially earns it, and I'm guessing, that will happen at some point this year.

Beat me to it. This is mostly about Ryan Hanigan playing very well. If Mesoraco was getting nearly every-day PT, I'm sure he would be doing better. But right now, he's a rookie and the Reds have a pretty damn good veteran catcher in front of him. Nothing wrong with that. They'll platoon next year too (final year of Hanny's deal).

And while we all know how good Hanigan is defensively and especially calling a game, let's not sell him short as a hitter. This is a guy that gives professional at-bats every time he steps to the plate. He's never an easy out. Really lacks power, but he's never an easy out.

Patrick Bateman
05-15-2012, 05:02 PM
No, he is getting good experience working with Homer Bailey and the relievers three times every two weeks.

If Mesoraco is going to enhance his development, shouldn't he catch someone else every now and again? How is he going to 'learn to catch' Cueto, Arroyo or Latos if he, you know, has to watch from the bench and not catch them?

I'm sure he does more work than in games.....

This isn't all about his development. They are trying to win games too. He'll eventually earn more playing time.... why does everything have to be handed to him on a silver platter? Again, I'm sure he is getting good experience working with these guys behind the scenes. Just because he isn't playing games everyday like in AAA does not mean he is getting no experience.

westofyou
05-15-2012, 05:04 PM
Rookie catcher, .607 OPS, best pitching in years for the reds (cross fingers) yet it's befuddling to some?

Ok...

REDREAD
05-15-2012, 05:06 PM
I think the fact that Hannigan is hitting well and the Reds have literally been starved for offense plays a part in the decision too.

Let's say hypothetically that Ludwick was tearing it up and we had the 2010 version of Stubbs. Then it becomes a lot easier to carry Mes' slow offensive start.

Dusty has been criticized in the past for putting "building a player's confidence" over winning (and rightfully so), but he's really managing differently this year, IMO. He's pulling out all the stops to win every game.
You can particularly see him more aggressively pulling starters and relievers now, as opposed to years past, when he routinely left them in too long.

Patrick Bateman
05-15-2012, 05:14 PM
It's not like Hanigan is an offensive slug or anything. Since he came into the league, the following catchers have a higher OBP:

Joe Mauer
AJ Ellis (400 at bats).

Hard to believe isn't it?

On a per at bat basis, Hanigan is in the ball park with essentially every non-elite catcher in regards to WAR. A catcher with the ability to get to 1st base consistently, and field the position admirably has about 95% of the puzzle figured out.

This is not the old situations where Baker lets Juan Castro pinch hit for Hamilton.... I think it's more like Hatteberg playing over Votto when Votto was developing in AAA. Decent player starting, at some point, if the prospect is the real deal, he will make it obvious enough to merit increased playing time. Mes has not done so yet, until then, the player with the strong major league resume is going to get priority. I don't have a problem with it.

Patrick Bateman
05-15-2012, 05:14 PM
DP

Caveat Emperor
05-15-2012, 05:19 PM
If Mesoraco is going to enhance his development, shouldn't he catch someone else every now and again? How is he going to 'learn to catch' Cueto, Arroyo or Latos if he, you know, has to watch from the bench and not catch them?

On the other hand, if the goal is to win games, don't you go with the catcher who your top pitchers have the greatest comfort level with?

mdccclxix
05-15-2012, 05:20 PM
I feel much more comfortable with Hanigan behind the plate, but I do wish Mez could get some more AB's. I think we might see him DH soon, which will be good. To my knowledge he's actually pretty good at hitting RHP, so having him hit cleanup in the future would solve a big, big issue.

defender
05-15-2012, 05:33 PM
Mes is catching twice each time through the rotation. Besides the six times he caught Bailey, he has caught Latos twice and Leake 5 times. The plan was a 40/60 split. The Reds should be praised for sticking with the plan through Mes' struggles.

_Sir_Charles_
05-15-2012, 05:37 PM
IMO it's kinda hard to pick on Dusty not playing Devin more simply because of how well Ryan is playing. He's rock solid defensively, the pitchers love throwing to him, and he's one of the most consistent bats on the club. His offense is quite overlooked IMO.

lollipopcurve
05-15-2012, 05:45 PM
Too soon to get upset about this, IMO. But Mesoraco needs playing time in order to develop, and if he goes all year without catching Cueto or Latos (or Arroyo), and never plays back to back, they'll be slowing him down. I'd like to see a more flexible system used as the season goes on.

MikeS21
05-15-2012, 05:47 PM
If they aren't going to play Mes, then send him back to AAA where he can play every day. If he is that inferior to Hannigan, then send him back to where he can finish developing and face live pitching every day.

I'm with Doug, sitting on the bench is doing NOTHING for his development.

CTA513
05-15-2012, 05:50 PM
Keep improving with the pitchers he catches and I'm sure he'll see more playing time.

edabbs44
05-15-2012, 05:53 PM
Goal #1 is to win games. This isn't the Reds of yesteryear where we are looking 5 years down the road. This team can win now. And that should be priority #1.

Kc61
05-15-2012, 05:55 PM
Devin's development may not be the first priority for the Reds this year, they may think they will win more games with Hanigan. It doesn't mean Devin must go to AAA. In my view, he is getting a fair number of outings.

Devin has 55 plate appearances so far, Ryan has 77. I think that's a reasonable allotment.

Devin has caught 127.1 innings so far. Ryan 181.1 innings. Again, I think that's a fair allotment.

My one complaint, though, is that a struggling guy like Mike Leake might do better having more games with Hanigan. On the other hand, Cueto doesn't necessarily need a veteran catcher, maybe try Mes with him. Mes seems to get more games with struggling pitchers.

Reds1
05-15-2012, 05:57 PM
Hannigan has been fantastic from both offensive and defensive. Relatively speaking on offense. He is calling a great game. Sometimes when #1 is successful #2 just can't get the opportunity. Look at Yonder. Too bad the brain trust didn't think he could play LF like I think he could, but he at #2 was not getting the time. He will get his time through the year. It's not like he's not catching at all.

Brutus
05-15-2012, 06:01 PM
If they aren't going to play Mes, then send him back to AAA where he can play every day. If he is that inferior to Hannigan, then send him back to where he can finish developing and face live pitching every day.

I'm with Doug, sitting on the bench is doing NOTHING for his development.

Disagree. I'd rather he have the 60 plate appearances at the Major League level he has now while learning Major League pitching without a lot of pressure than the 120 PA's he'd have in AAA. He'd still have to adjust to MLB pitching even if he were playing every day in AAA.

He's developing. He's seeing big league pitching twice a week while learning from an experienced catcher in front of him. I'd say that will do him a world of good in the long run.

Kc61
05-15-2012, 06:01 PM
Goal #1 is to win games. This isn't the Reds of yesteryear where we are looking 5 years down the road. This team can win now. And that should be priority #1.

Good phrase, the "Reds of yesteryear."

PuffyPig
05-15-2012, 06:05 PM
Mes is getting 40% of the AB's and is hitting poorly.

He hits better, he'll play more. It's pretty simple.

It's the major leagues, you need to earn your playing time when you play for a contender.

Hoosier Red
05-15-2012, 06:10 PM
First things first, let's dispense with the notion that players learn nothing from sitting on the bench.

All players but especially catchers gain some benefit by learning from the bench. There's a balance to it, and obviously a player has to get some hands on experience as well, but he's catching twice a week at least so it's not as if he's getting no experience.

Integrating him with some balance of bench/playing is going to benefit Devin, how much the balance tips one direction or the other could be debated over and over but in this case I'd defer to the people dealing with him every day.

klw
05-15-2012, 07:00 PM
I would not mind seeing Mez getting the occasional time out in LF unless HI-C or Ludwig catch fire. If he has the legs to pinch-run in key times, he probably has the legs to play a passable early inning LF.

Sabo Fan
05-15-2012, 08:22 PM
I would not mind seeing Mez getting the occasional time out in LF unless HI-C or Ludwig catch fire. If he has the legs to pinch-run in key times, he probably has the legs to play a passable early inning LF.

With only two catchers on the roster that isn't going to happen. As much as I want to see Mesoraco play, sticking him out in LF, where to my knowledge he's never played before, isn't the answer.

What I'd like to see is with off days and the normal rotation juggling that goes on, try to work it so that the two pitchers you've designated as being caught by Mez be put back-to-back in an effort to get him in some sort of a groove. Hanigan playing in three straight and then Mez for two makes sense to me.

dougdirt
05-15-2012, 08:41 PM
Mes is getting 40% of the AB's and is hitting poorly.

He hits better, he'll play more. It's pretty simple.

It's the major leagues, you need to earn your playing time when you play for a contender.

No he won't. Each guy has 'their guys' and that is who they are catching.

dougdirt
05-15-2012, 08:44 PM
Mes is catching twice each time through the rotation. Besides the six times he caught Bailey, he has caught Latos twice and Leake 5 times. The plan was a 40/60 split. The Reds should be praised for sticking with the plan through Mes' struggles.

They need to mix it up then. Mesoraco simply can't get into any kind of groove catching one day, then sitting for three, then catching one, then sitting for three.

Either give hm a chance or send him down for Corky Miller or Dioner Navarro.

edabbs44
05-15-2012, 08:49 PM
They need to mix it up then. Mesoraco simply can't get into any kind of groove catching one day, then sitting for three, then catching one, then sitting for three.

Either give hm a chance or send him down for Corky Miller or Dioner Navarro.

Right now it is a 60/40 split. Not 75/25. He is getting the short end of a catching tandem in his rookie season on a contender. I assume that most people (including him) are pretty excited about his role.

Patrick Bateman
05-15-2012, 08:51 PM
No he won't. Each guy has 'their guys' and that is who they are catching.

How do you know? If he starts hitting like his capabilities, I could easily see that changing.

Patrick Bateman
05-15-2012, 08:55 PM
They need to mix it up then. Mesoraco simply can't get into any kind of groove catching one day, then sitting for three, then catching one, then sitting for three.

Either give hm a chance or send him down for Corky Miller or Dioner Navarro.

Why do they need to mix it up? This is no different than how most teams function. More about getting pitchers comfortable with one target. The Reds are likely more concerned with the team's overall performance, not just one guy.

You act like he never plays. He's getting 40% of the snaps while he's struggling. And I'm sure he's not complaining about getting into a groove. Back-up catchers have before earned playing time through playing in part time roles. The whole "groove" thing is an excuse. The guy is a professional, he will eventually start hitting and improving regardless if he plays two days in a row. For the time being, he is getting MLB experience that is more than likely more valuable than playing in AAA again. Players don't become major leaguers overnight. For most it is a process. He is getting a decent chance, and when he earns it, he will get more playing time, no different than any other situation. I just don't see the argument that Mes is not being treated in a reasonable matter.

dougdirt
05-15-2012, 08:58 PM
How do you know? If he starts hitting like his capabilities, I could easily see that changing.

Because our manager has basically come out and said as much.

dougdirt
05-15-2012, 08:59 PM
Why do they need to mix it up? This is no different than how most teams function. More about getting pitchers comfortable with one target. The Reds are likely more concerned with the team's overall performance, not just one guy.

You act like he never plays. He's getting 40% of the snaps while he's struggling. And I'm sure he's not complaining about getting into a groove. Back-up catchers have before earned playing time through playing in part time roles. The whole "groove" thing is an excuse. The guy is a professional, he will eventually start hitting and improving regardless if he plays two days in a row. For the time being, he is getting MLB experience that is more than likely more valuable than playing in AAA again. Players don't become major leaguers overnight. For most it is a process. He is getting a decent chance, and when he earns it, he will get more playing time, no different than any other situation. I just don't see the argument that Mes is not being treated in a reasonable matter.

I can't remember another team calling up their #1 prospect and playing him twice a week. Most teams don't do it that way. Teams do it that way with true back up players who are back up players for life.

Patrick Bateman
05-15-2012, 09:13 PM
I can't remember another team calling up their #1 prospect and playing him twice a week. Most teams don't do it that way. Teams do it that way with true back up players who are back up players for life.

I can certainly remember numerous examples of prospects being handed full playing time before establishing themselves and being yo-yo'ed around between AAA and the majors.

How is this that much worse? For one thing, most catchers get at least one off day per week. So I mean, the most he would ideally be playing anyways is another two games a week. Considering that he hasn't hit much yet, and has strong competition, and in consideration that the catcher position is generally treated differently in respect to usage with specific pitchers, I don't consider this to be a normal prospect situation where he either plays all of the time, or doesn't play at all. Is playing everyday at AAA really that valuable to this particular player's development? Not to mention, that as currently constructed having both guys here in a tandem, however you want to allocate their starts, gives the Reds a good starter everyday. Most teams don't boast that. Sending him down doesn't give him the MLB exposure that he is ready for, and likely decreases the product on the field.

FYI, I'm fairly certain if Mes starts OPSing .850 then Baker will be playing him more often, as he has done with every other prospect that has earned playing time, regardless of quotes you think he has said in the past. Again, once he starts to earn playing time, he will likely get more of it. I don't think it's THAT insane that Baker would make him earn playing time on a contending team with a strong alternative.

Griffey012
05-15-2012, 10:56 PM
Mesoraco's job is to help the Reds win games. If that means catching Bailey, Leake, and the occasional other pitcher while Hanigan is performing at a much higher level, especially defensively, then he should do it. If he is not capable of playing the back up role right now then maybe we should have traded him instead of Grandal.

Mesoraco earned his spot by performing in the minors, he hasn't earned a thing with his performance thus far in the majors. Why should it be given to him?

By the way, don't be confused I am very high on Mez and very excited about him. I just don't believe much in handing things to prospects because of what they have done at lower levels. You earn a shot because of your minor league performance, you have to perform better than your competition to keep/increase your role. The catching situation is fine.

Crumbley
05-15-2012, 11:31 PM
Mesoraco has neither hit nor impressed me with his glove. He's getting plenty of playing time.

powersackers
05-16-2012, 01:53 AM
Great thread. I really didn't see this situation coming. I thought Mes would be the starter and Hanigan would catch Arroyo. Traditional 80/20 split.

dougdirt
05-16-2012, 06:41 AM
By the way, don't be confused I am very high on Mez and very excited about him. I just don't believe much in handing things to prospects because of what they have done at lower levels. You earn a shot because of your minor league performance, you have to perform better than your competition to keep/increase your role. The catching situation is fine.

How many guys perform better than someone else, much less as a rookie, when they literally never start on back to back days and usually sit three days between each start? My guess is that hardly any 23 year old rookie is going to perform well in that situation.

He has 1 less walk than strike out, so he is making contact and not chasing bad pitches.... but his swing seems to be off ever so little. That is probably because he simply isn't getting enough game time. Batting practice isn't the same as live pitching and he simply isn't seeing live pitching often enough right now to get his swing in the right spot it needs to be in.

mth123
05-16-2012, 06:54 AM
I reiterate the idea of playing Mesoraco in LF two or maybe three days per week. Get him his ABs, let him still catch his share and Hanigan catch his. He's learning the league it won't derail him at all and will help his and the team's offense. Gary Carter played 92 games in the OF as a rookie. Yogi Berra played a significant number of games in the OF in his first and second year. Elston Howard played OF even more than Yogi in his first and second years.

Give Mes a year or two to learn the league and work on his catching while keeping his bat in the line-up and Hanigan continues in his role. He and Hanigan are both among the top 5 or 6 position players on the roster. I want them both in there. Its not like they'd be displacing a valued regular. It would improve the team.

powersackers
05-16-2012, 08:06 AM
Hanigan has scored 7 runs and knocked in only 3. He's most productive at simply getting on base and helping turn the lineup over to Joey and Bruce eventually.

He doesn't score nor drive in a lot with that OBP. There's probably little doubt that Mez could accomplish as much or more given full time Starting catcher play.

cumberlandreds
05-16-2012, 08:13 AM
I don't have a problem at all with it. Mez is staring twice through the rotation when Leake and Bailey starts. I think its obvious that Hanigan handles the pitching staff better at this point too. Sooner or later Hanigan will bet banged up and have to miss a few games. Mez will get his chance then to play every game. Right now I think its good he's being brought along slowly. Catching is much different than playng LF or 1B. A huge learning curve and its best for any young catcher to be brought along slowly. There's not many Johnny Bench's out there.

MikeS21
05-16-2012, 08:25 AM
FREE Mesoraco!

Think we'll have to wait until Hannigan gets "Wally Pipp'd" ?

DGullett35
05-16-2012, 08:54 AM
Mesoraco has neither hit nor impressed me with his glove. He's getting plenty of playing time.

This^-On Bailey's start in ATL he had a good amount of pitches that were borderline strikes but were called balls. If Hanigan were behind the dish I would think that he would have gotten those calls. Hanigan does a better job of framing his pitches and that really helps out the pitcher. Mes has alot to learn and I think he is going to be really good but for right now I have to agree that hes getting plenty of playing time for what hes bringing to the table. If he was killing the baseball Id think different.

Cooper
05-16-2012, 09:17 AM
Mes needs to catch more cause this team needs bats.

Patrick Bateman
05-16-2012, 10:16 AM
How many guys perform better than someone else, much less as a rookie, when they literally never start on back to back days and usually sit three days between each start? My guess is that hardly any 23 year old rookie is going to perform well in that situation.

He has 1 less walk than strike out, so he is making contact and not chasing bad pitches.... but his swing seems to be off ever so little. That is probably because he simply isn't getting enough game time. Batting practice isn't the same as live pitching and he simply isn't seeing live pitching often enough right now to get his swing in the right spot it needs to be in.

Or may I suggest it's just small sample size. That usually is what makes a guy's swing look "a little off" is the fact he's not getting results in a small sample.

You are right, the guy doesn't look lost at the plate. I think it's just a matter of time. Because he is only playing a few times a week, it's easy to imagine how a random fluctuation would make him look worse than he is.

It just seems like you want to make excuses for him, whereas in most situations we'd all be playing the small sample size card to explain a random fluctuation. May I suggest that the fact that you have invested quite a bit of time in Mes is somewhat clouding your judgement in this situation? I feel like if Hanigan was freshly removed from the minors, this thread would have never existed.

dougdirt
05-16-2012, 10:36 AM
Or may I suggest it's just small sample size. That usually is what makes a guy's swing look "a little off" is the fact he's not getting results in a small sample.

You are right, the guy doesn't look lost at the plate. I think it's just a matter of time. Because he is only playing a few times a week, it's easy to imagine how a random fluctuation would make him look worse than he is.

It just seems like you want to make excuses for him, whereas in most situations we'd all be playing the small sample size card to explain a random fluctuation. May I suggest that the fact that you have invested quite a bit of time in Mes is somewhat clouding your judgement in this situation? I feel like if Hanigan was freshly removed from the minors, this thread would have never existed.

I have a lot of time invested in Todd Frazier too. Didn't start a thread about him. Todd Frazier isn't a difference maker and Todd Frazier might be a fringe starter. Devin Mesoraco can be a difference maker. He can be exactly what the Reds want, a right handed hitter with power who can split the lefties. But he is sitting three days, playing one, sitting three days, and playing one.

Patrick Bateman
05-16-2012, 11:16 AM
I have a lot of time invested in Todd Frazier too. Didn't start a thread about him. Todd Frazier isn't a difference maker and Todd Frazier might be a fringe starter. Devin Mesoraco can be a difference maker. He can be exactly what the Reds want, a right handed hitter with power who can split the lefties. But he is sitting three days, playing one, sitting three days, and playing one.

The key word is "can". Sure he can, but he hasn't proven that yet. To displace Hanigan for more than twice a week, he should have to prove that IMO. He's not conisdered a defensive ace (not saying he sucks), but he is going to need to be a plus hitter to offer an overall better package. Until Mes proves that, he's still just a thought. He is getting enough starts to show what he can do, and I honestly believe as he starts hitting, the time share allocation will change.

dougdirt
05-16-2012, 11:27 AM
The key word is "can". Sure he can, but he hasn't proven that yet. To displace Hanigan for more than twice a week, he should have to prove that IMO. He's not conisdered a defensive ace (not saying he sucks), but he is going to need to be a plus hitter to offer an overall better package. Until Mes proves that, he's still just a thought. He is getting enough starts to show what he can do, and I honestly believe as he starts hitting, the time share allocation will change.

I am saying that Mesoraco isn't really going to be able to show that with the current way he is being used. I went through the game logs and just noted the amount of days between each start for the two catchers. Mesoraco is having much longer lay offs between starts than Hanigan is. Is it any wonder that he is having more success hitting when he isn't sitting for 4, 5 or 6 days between starts?

Patrick Bateman
05-16-2012, 11:48 AM
I am saying that Mesoraco isn't really going to be able to show that with the current way he is being used. I went through the game logs and just noted the amount of days between each start for the two catchers. Mesoraco is having much longer lay offs between starts than Hanigan is. Is it any wonder that he is having more success hitting when he isn't sitting for 4, 5 or 6 days between starts?

Do historical stats actually show that it is much more difficult to hit in between starts? Just curious, I don't know the asnwer to that.

_Sir_Charles_
05-16-2012, 12:00 PM
Mes needs to catch more cause this team needs bats.

And Hanigan is chopped liver?

Team best batting average, 2nd on team OBP, 4th on the team in OPS even without him having a HR yet.

Don't get me wrong. I love Mesoraco. But IMO this is his year to "learn" at the bigs. 40% of the playing time is the maximum I give him unless he goes on a tear or Hanigan bombs or gets injured. The lack of respect that Hanny gets for his offense is beyond insulting IMO.

Bumstead
05-16-2012, 12:17 PM
And Hanigan is chopped liver?

Team best batting average, 2nd on team OBP, 4th on the team in OPS even without him having a HR yet.

Don't get me wrong. I love Mesoraco. But IMO this is his year to "learn" at the bigs. 40% of the playing time is the maximum I give him unless he goes on a tear or Hanigan bombs or gets injured. The lack of respect that Hanny gets for his offense is beyond insulting IMO.

He has a .714OPS...4th on the team with a .714 OPS just means the team isn't hitting at all. I find it insulting that the best MLB ready catching prospect isn't playing more than once every 5 days. Mesoraco has the potential to be well beyond a .714 OPS...or even Hanigan's tremendous .737 career OPS...might as well send Mes back to AAA so that he can get past getting "Dusty'd."

If everyone is satisfied with this team being managed to an 18-17 record then I give up. This team is way better than that. Jockety had to cut Willie Harris just to keep Dusty from playing him (which is the 3rd player in the last 2 years that Jockety had to rid us of to stop Dusty from playing them daily).

Hanigan is probably the best backup catcher in all of MLB, but he should not be starting 80% of the games with Mesoraco on the roster. We can have the best pitching in the world but if we don't score we will still lose. Time to stop playing favorites on this team.

Bum

dougdirt
05-16-2012, 12:24 PM
Do historical stats actually show that it is much more difficult to hit in between starts? Just curious, I don't know the asnwer to that.

I don't know either, but I can't imagine it is as easy to hit playing every 3-4 days instead of playing nearly ever day.

Mesoraco isn't even getting the benefits that a pinch hitter does, where a guy is called up to hit against a certain pitcher because his strengths play to that pitcher. Mesoraco just gets to hit when his pitcher is on the mound every 3-4 days.

Always Red
05-16-2012, 01:42 PM
He has a .714OPS...4th on the team with a .714 OPS just means the team isn't hitting at all. I find it insulting that the best MLB ready catching prospect isn't playing more than once every 5 days. Mesoraco has the potential to be well beyond a .714 OPS...or even Hanigan's tremendous .737 career OPS...might as well send Mes back to AAA so that he can get past getting "Dusty'd."

If everyone is satisfied with this team being managed to an 18-17 record then I give up. This team is way better than that. Jockety had to cut Willie Harris just to keep Dusty from playing him (which is the 3rd player in the last 2 years that Jockety had to rid us of to stop Dusty from playing them daily).

Hanigan is probably the best backup catcher in all of MLB, but he should not be starting 80% of the games with Mesoraco on the roster. We can have the best pitching in the world but if we don't score we will still lose. Time to stop playing favorites on this team.

Bum

Good rant, let's not let the facts get in the way...

The Reds have played 35 games thus far.

Simple perusal of boxscores on B-R.com tells me that Hanny has started 21 of those games (60%)

Mes has started 14 of those games (40%)

So, Hanny is not starting 80% of the games, and as the year goes on, I suspect that the number will be closer to 50/50

Also- Of those 14 starts, Mes has caught Homer 6 times, Leake 5 times and Latos twice. So, Mes does not catch Homer only.

I have no favorite; I root for the Cincinnati Reds.

Hanigan's playing fine; his usual high OBP, low production game at the dish. I'd hit him 2nd right now. Hopefully Mes will develop into that guy who can hit #4 between Votto and The Bruce. But he looks over matched at the plate right now (unless he knows a fastball is coming) and this team is scuffling to win ballgames.

I'm perfectly fine with how Dusty and the FO are handling Mesoraco. Mes is not Johnny Bench, or Joe Maurer or even Buster Posey. Once he gains the smarts and confidence, his skill level will mean that he will play more. But not yet; he's not there yet.

Ryan Hanigan, or the catching position, are not this teams problem.

_Sir_Charles_
05-16-2012, 01:50 PM
He has a .714OPS...4th on the team with a .714 OPS just means the team isn't hitting at all. I find it insulting that the best MLB ready catching prospect isn't playing more than once every 5 days. Mesoraco has the potential to be well beyond a .714 OPS...or even Hanigan's tremendous .737 career OPS...might as well send Mes back to AAA so that he can get past getting "Dusty'd."

If everyone is satisfied with this team being managed to an 18-17 record then I give up. This team is way better than that. Jockety had to cut Willie Harris just to keep Dusty from playing him (which is the 3rd player in the last 2 years that Jockety had to rid us of to stop Dusty from playing them daily).

Hanigan is probably the best backup catcher in all of MLB, but he should not be starting 80% of the games with Mesoraco on the roster. We can have the best pitching in the world but if we don't score we will still lose. Time to stop playing favorites on this team.

Bum

I only pointed out the OPS to show how poor the offense is right now. Power is never going to be a strong point for Ryan. But regardless, Hanigan's the toughest out on the team after Votto. He's tough to strikeout, he doesn't hit into DP's, he makes EXCELLENT contact, and he works the counts. I don't think there's a better guy on the club (outside of Joey) to hit & run with.

I realize that Mesoraco is this teams' future...but I just don't see how Dusty can sit Hanigan with the way he's playing right now. Offensively. Toss in the fact that he's by far the better defender/receiver and it just makes it even harder to yank him.

dougdirt
05-16-2012, 02:29 PM
I realize that Mesoraco is this teams' future...but I just don't see how Dusty can sit Hanigan with the way he's playing right now. Offensively. Toss in the fact that he's by far the better defender/receiver and it just makes it even harder to yank him.

I am not saying sit him, I am saying let the kid start back to back days more than twice in a season. Mesoraco went through a stretch where he started back to back games, then sat for 5 days, then started back to back games, then sat for 6 days. That simply can't happen. Mesoraco needs to catch Arroyo sometimes. He needs to catch Cueto sometimes. He needs to catch Latos sometimes. Hanigan needs to catch Bailey some times. Hanigan needs to catch Leake sometimes. With how the rotation is currently shaped, Mesoraco is going 3-4 days between starts every time through the rotation. That simply can't happen. Mix the catchers up better. Have each guy catch all of the pitchers.

REDREAD
05-16-2012, 02:46 PM
Disagree. I'd rather he have the 60 plate appearances at the Major League level he has now while learning Major League pitching without a lot of pressure than the 120 PA's he'd have in AAA. He'd still have to adjust to MLB pitching even if he were playing every day in AAA.
.

I agree. I don't think there's anything left at AAA for Mes to learn.
I also agree with Dusty that Mez can learn a lot just by watching games.
Having Mez catch Homer and Leake now is going to pay dividends, as early as this year. He's not going to get the feel for those guys at AAA.

Plus, Mez can help the Reds win games in a part time role. Mez partime is probably better than D. Navorra (the Reds AAA catcher, mispelled) being up here.

REDREAD
05-16-2012, 02:53 PM
They need to mix it up then. Mesoraco simply can't get into any kind of groove catching one day, then sitting for three, then catching one, then sitting for three.


But that's not what's happening. You are implying that Mez is playing 25% of the time, when it's actually about 40%.

He's caught Latos, Leake, and Homer, plus the bullpen guys. That's enough to learn for now. Having him catch the starters on a random basis is probably going to delay his development, not accelerate it. He and Homer had a great outting last time they were out. They are both learning to work together.
Let Mes get the feel for Latos and Leake before moving on. I'm not saying it's Mes's fault that Leake is struggling. Even if Leake was pitching well, I think the designated catcher system is worthwhile.

There's no rush at all to get Mez playing 80-90% of the time with Hannigan playing so well. Many were clamouring to get Frasier in the starting lineup.
Well, now that Rolen is hurt, it happened. Well, Frasier is OPSing 615 in May.
Sure, it is a small sample.. but it's not like the Reds were guaranteed to get a huge boost in offense if Frasier was given more playing time.

Big Klu
05-16-2012, 02:54 PM
Bronson Arroyo has always had a personal catcher since he's been in Cincinnati. The only time Ramon Hernandez (or anyone else) ever caught Arroyo was when Ryan Hanigan (or prior to him, David Ross) was injured.

Mesoraco will not catch Arroyo as long as Hanigan is healthy and on the roster.

dougdirt
05-16-2012, 02:59 PM
Bronson Arroyo has always had a personal catcher since he's been in Cincinnati. The only time Ramon Hernandez (or anyone else) ever caught Arroyo was when Ryan Hanigan (or prior to him, David Ross) was injured.

Mesoraco will not catch Arroyo as long as Hanigan is healthy and on the roster.

And that is stupid. Arroyo had a different catcher in Pittsburgh. He had a different one in Boston. He had a different one before Hanigan got called up. In fact, Arroyo threw 651 innings of 4.05 ERA baseball for the Reds before Hanigan was even on the team.

REDREAD
05-16-2012, 02:59 PM
How many guys perform better than someone else, much less as a rookie, when they literally never start on back to back days and usually sit three days between each start? My guess is that hardly any 23 year old rookie is going to perform well in that situation.
.

That's an easy question to answer.
Ryan Hannigan did it.
Between 2008-2011, Hannigan got between 85 and 266 AB per year and performed at a high level.
He was 26 in 2008, IIRC, but the point still stands.

dougdirt
05-16-2012, 03:04 PM
But that's not what's happening. You are implying that Mez is playing 25% of the time, when it's actually about 40%.

He's caught Latos, Leake, and Homer, plus the bullpen guys. That's enough to learn for now. Having him catch the starters on a random basis is probably going to delay his development, not accelerate it. He and Homer had a great outting last time they were out. They are both learning to work together.
Let Mes get the feel for Latos and Leake before moving on. I'm not saying it's Mes's fault that Leake is struggling. Even if Leake was pitching well, I think the designated catcher system is worthwhile.

There's no rush at all to get Mez playing 80-90% of the time with Hannigan playing so well. Many were clamouring to get Frasier in the starting lineup.
Well, now that Rolen is hurt, it happened. Well, Frasier is OPSing 615 in May.
Sure, it is a small sample.. but it's not like the Reds were guaranteed to get a huge boost in offense if Frasier was given more playing time.

Todd Frazier and Devin Mesoraco are completely different animals. I don't care what 'many' were saying. 'Many' Reds fans are dumb. Todd Frazier, is a fringe starter at best. Devin Mesoraco could be an All-Star level catcher and he is essentially being used as a back up to 'learn', but is never going to actually 'learn' to catch certain guys by never catching them. It doesn't make sense. You want to split them 60-40, fine. I don't like it, but fine. But don't have it set up so each guy gets their 'guy'. Mesoraco will never learn to catch Cueto or Arroyo, who last I checked, still have 70+ starts with the Reds on their contracts if he is never allowed to catch them.

dougdirt
05-16-2012, 03:08 PM
That's an easy question to answer.
Ryan Hannigan did it.
Between 2008-2011, Hannigan got between 85 and 266 AB per year and performed at a high level.
He was 26 in 2008, IIRC, but the point still stands.

In 2008, Ryan Hanigan spent nearly the entire season in Louisville. He didn't get called up until the Reds 119th game, meaning they had 43 games. He played in 31 of them. Quick math says that is about 75%.

In 2009, he was 28 years old and got 300 trips to the plate. Far from being a 23 year old.

_Sir_Charles_
05-16-2012, 03:09 PM
Todd Frazier and Devin Mesoraco are completely different animals. I don't care what 'many' were saying. 'Many' Reds fans are dumb. Todd Frazier, is a fringe starter at best. Devin Mesoraco could be an All-Star level catcher and he is essentially being used as a back up to 'learn', but is never going to actually 'learn' to catch certain guys by never catching them. It doesn't make sense. You want to split them 60-40, fine. I don't like it, but fine. But don't have it set up so each guy gets their 'guy'. Mesoraco will never learn to catch Cueto or Arroyo, who last I checked, still have 70+ starts with the Reds on their contracts if he is never allowed to catch them.

This part I can agree with. Mesoraco does need to catch Cueto and Bronson. And to be honest, I think he will. Multiple times. It just hasn't happened yet. Although it may have during ST. It wouldn't shock me if he's caught them in BP/warmup sessions either.

dougdirt
05-16-2012, 03:11 PM
This part I can agree with. Mesoraco does need to catch Cueto and Bronson. And to be honest, I think he will. Multiple times. It just hasn't happened yet. Although it may have during ST. It wouldn't shock me if he's caught them in BP/warmup sessions either.

Mesoraco caught Cueto on rehab last year for 3 of his 4 starts. His ERA was around 2 in those starts. When Corky caught him the other time, Cueto got lit up.

I just can't understand not letting them both catch all of the guys on some sort of normal rotating basis.

_Sir_Charles_
05-16-2012, 03:19 PM
I would imagine catching Bronson would be a different animal. Nearly akin to a knuckleballer. Speeds, angles, breaks, etc. Probably the hardest guy to catch I'd think. He and Ryan do work well together. I could understand Dusty not wanting to break up that tandem...but at the same time, what if Ryan got hurt. I want Devin to have SOME experience working with Bronson.

Big Klu
05-16-2012, 03:27 PM
Mesoraco caught Cueto on rehab last year for 3 of his 4 starts. His ERA was around 2 in those starts. When Corky caught him the other time, Cueto got lit up.

I just can't understand not letting them both catch all of the guys on some sort of normal rotating basis.

I think it has to do with the pitchers' comfort levels more than Mesoraco's. It would appear that some pitchers (Arroyo, Cueto, possibly Latos) feel more comfortable (and in some cases, strongly prefer) Hanigan's game-calling ability and defense behind the plate. They trust Hanigan more than Mesoraco. And based on what I've seen so far, they may be right. I'm not saying that Mesoraco won't be a good catcher, but defensively he's not in Hanigan's league right now. (Purely anecdotal, but he reminds me of Eddie Taubensee right now.)

powersackers
05-16-2012, 04:14 PM
I think it has to do with the pitchers' comfort levels more than Mesoraco's. It would appear that some pitchers (Arroyo, Cueto, possibly Latos) feel more comfortable (and in some cases, strongly prefer) Hanigan's game-calling ability and defense behind the plate. They trust Hanigan more than Mesoraco. And based on what I've seen so far, they may be right. I'm not saying that Mesoraco won't be a good catcher, but defensively he's not in Hanigan's league right now. (Purely anecdotal, but he reminds me of Eddie Taubensee right now.)

So let's let the players who care most about winning now and their contract decide the playing time of one of the best prospects in baseball? Our catcher through 2018 when Hanigan will be long forgotten...

REDREAD
05-16-2012, 04:57 PM
Todd Frazier and Devin Mesoraco are completely different animals. I don't care what 'many' were saying. 'Many' Reds fans are dumb. Todd Frazier, is a fringe starter at best. Devin Mesoraco could be an All-Star level catcher and he is essentially being used as a back up to 'learn', but is never going to actually 'learn' to catch certain guys by never catching them. It doesn't make sense. You want to split them 60-40, fine. I don't like it, but fine. But don't have it set up so each guy gets their 'guy'. Mesoraco will never learn to catch Cueto or Arroyo, who last I checked, still have 70+ starts with the Reds on their contracts if he is never allowed to catch them.

Mez has plenty of time to learn to catch Cueto and Arroyo.
If Mez is only going to catch 40-50% of the time, it makes sense to allocate the catchers as Dusty has.
If you think Mez is going to be the better offensive player this year, it makes even more sense to have Mez be Leake's and Homer's catcher.. those two starters need the extra offense more then Cueto and Arroyo do.

I'd rather Mez be 100% comfortable with 2 pitchers than 50% comfortable with all 5 starting pitchers. He will get an opportunity to catch the other pitchers.
All 5 pitchers are projected to be in Cincy a relatively long time, barring a trade/injury.

REDREAD
05-16-2012, 05:01 PM
In 2008, Ryan Hanigan spent nearly the entire season in Louisville. He didn't get called up until the Reds 119th game, meaning they had 43 games. He played in 31 of them. Quick math says that is about 75%.

In 2009, he was 28 years old and got 300 trips to the plate. Far from being a 23 year old.

Ok, discount 2008 then.
Still three years of part time playing, and Hannigan developed quite nicely.
Hannigan was considered a fringe prospect. Mez is supposed to be the best catching prospect in baseball.. I don't see how Mez's youth puts him at a disadvantage. He's got the better pedigree. He should learn to hit ML pitching faster and thus be able to push Hannigan for more time. He hasn't done it yet (small sample size of course).

Just maybe, Dusty knows what he's doing?

No offense Doug, but you think developing prospects should take precedence over everything else. We are trying to win this year. I'm pretty sure Mez is not going to be damaged by playing in a part time role. Plenty of rookies break in as a part time player and do just fine. As I said, Hannigan pulled it off.

Bumstead
05-16-2012, 05:27 PM
Ok, discount 2008 then.
Still three years of part time playing, and Hannigan developed quite nicely.
Hannigan was considered a fringe prospect. Mez is supposed to be the best catching prospect in baseball.. I don't see how Mez's youth puts him at a disadvantage. He's got the better pedigree. He should learn to hit ML pitching faster and thus be able to push Hannigan for more time. He hasn't done it yet (small sample size of course).

Just maybe, Dusty knows what he's doing?

No offense Doug, but you think developing prospects should take precedence over everything else. We are trying to win this year. I'm pretty sure Mez is not going to be damaged by playing in a part time role. Plenty of rookies break in as a part time player and do just fine. As I said, Hannigan pulled it off.

We are 18-17...how's that working out? Hannigan is a backup catcher going forward and Mesoraco will be the starter. It's not even a question. Mesoraco has the ability to be a difference maker offensively and solid defensively. How's our offense? Dusty has proven to favor veterans to a fault time after time; it's an obvious trait of his, so, no, I think he's just favoring the veteran over playing the rookie with any consistency. I realize he has his excuses for doing it that way, I have just grown weary of hearing them. If we were leading the division and scoring runs, then I wouldn't have a problem with how Mes is being used. We're not in either case. Continuing to do the same thing that isn't working isn't what one likes to see from a "Manager."

Bum

westofyou
05-16-2012, 05:32 PM
Catching is more about pitching than hitting, squatting, throwing or being a rookie with promise.

He'll get his chance but let's not pretend the success of this staff isn't tied to the job Hanigan has done thus far

dougdirt
05-16-2012, 05:43 PM
Catching is more about pitching than hitting, squatting, throwing or being a rookie with promise.

He'll get his chance but let's not pretend the success of this staff isn't tied to the job Hanigan has done thus far

You are right, our pitchers aren't good because of their skill, they are good because of the guy who catches the pitches that they decide to throw. Pitchers go from good to bad overnight when a catcher gets hurt or they get traded. Right?

westofyou
05-16-2012, 05:47 PM
You are right, our pitchers aren't good because of their skill, they are good because of the guy who catches the pitches that they decide to throw. Pitchers go from good to bad overnight when a catcher gets hurt or they get traded. Right?

Why ask me?

You already know

IslandRed
05-16-2012, 05:51 PM
So let's let the players who care most about winning now and their contract decide the playing time of one of the best prospects in baseball?

As does the manager, general manager and owner. In case we forgot, they kind of want to win this year. Mesoraco's development is important but it's not the most important thing going on. The Reds aren't going to shove aside Hanigan, with the .363 OBP and excellent defense, for the sake of prospect development; it's Mes' job to do the shoving with his performance. That's how it typically works on contending clubs (or clubs who believe they're contending). Or so I've heard. We don't have much recent experience with that mindset.

mdccclxix
05-16-2012, 06:04 PM
Bottom line is the Reds need Mez to hit. Hopefully he gets on track in NY, as a Catcher and a Designated Hitter. If he can soar to his AAA numbers this season will get even more interesting. I'd love to see him start getting that power going, it's scary strong.

Griffey012
05-16-2012, 06:08 PM
Let's also not forget we are talking about a catcher. If this playing time situation was any of the other 7 fielding positions I would be much more likely to completely agree with Doug, and I probably would agree. However, catching is the hardest of the 8 fielding positions both physically and mentally from a defensive perspective, not even including then trying to hit MLB pitching. Just because Mez isn't playing a ton right now, doesn't mean he is not getting better prepared, especially in mental preparation and game calling. Doing extra observing now could benefit him later on in the season.

_Sir_Charles_
05-16-2012, 06:48 PM
We are 18-17...how's that working out? Hannigan is a backup catcher going forward and Mesoraco will be the starter. It's not even a question. Mesoraco has the ability to be a difference maker offensively and solid defensively. How's our offense? Dusty has proven to favor veterans to a fault time after time; it's an obvious trait of his, so, no, I think he's just favoring the veteran over playing the rookie with any consistency. I realize he has his excuses for doing it that way, I have just grown weary of hearing them. If we were leading the division and scoring runs, then I wouldn't have a problem with how Mes is being used. We're not in either case. Continuing to do the same thing that isn't working isn't what one likes to see from a "Manager."

Bum

Disagree 100%
He has proven to favor players of all types to a fault at times. It's a good trait as quite often, sticking with a guy after the fans would've pulled the plug on the guy results in the guy breaking out of that slump and going on to a solid year. He's very patient, moreso than the fanbase, that's for certain.

DGullett35
05-16-2012, 06:57 PM
Bottom line is that if Mes starts hitting he will play more. Hanigan has been as good a catcher as we could ask for up to this point. He calls games better, he plays better overall defense, and so far this year he's the better hitter. I see no argument at this time for Mes playing more than he currently does. And honestly Id like to see Hanny catch Leake tonight just to see what he does with someone else behind the dish. Does anyone know who caught Leake more last year? Hanigan or Hernandez?

Unassisted
05-16-2012, 07:12 PM
Until the last Bailey start, my impression was that the starters had more success when Hanigan was behind the dish than Mesoraco. A recent RedReporter article (http://www.redreporter.com/2012/5/7/3003931/breaking-down-the-playing-time-for-the-reds-catching-tandem) made this same point, but with statistics for those who demand evidence. ;)

An even more recent article there points out the Mesoraco lowered his cERA (http://www.redreporter.com/2012/5/14/3021015/devin-mesoraco-lowers-his-cera-reds-defeat-braves-3-1) with the Bailey start. I'd like to see more evidence of a trend before Dusty hands Devin more starts.

KittyDuran
05-16-2012, 07:16 PM
Bottom line is that if Mes starts hitting he will play more. Hanigan has been as good a catcher as we could ask for up to this point. He calls games better, he plays better overall defense, and so far this year he's the better hitter. I see no argument at this time for Mes playing more than he currently does. And honestly Id like to see Hanny catch Leake tonight just to see what he does with someone else behind the dish. Does anyone know who caught Leake more last year? Hanigan or Hernandez?

I broke down the catching somewhere - maybe on one of the Leake threads... but IIRC it was mostly Hernandez and possibly one time with Mes...

Raisor
05-16-2012, 10:49 PM
I like Hannigan a lot, but I think some of you are overstating one part of his game. We actually know very little about how he calls a game. Price and Baker are calling the game from the dugout.

Big Klu
05-16-2012, 11:39 PM
I like Hannigan a lot, but I think some of you are overstating one part of his game. We actually know very little about how he calls a game. Price and Baker are calling the game from the dugout.

Do we know that? I'm sure they might call for a certain pitch in a certain situation, but are they calling every pitch?

kheidg-
05-16-2012, 11:49 PM
I'm not positive on this but I'm pretty sure Hanigan does a lot of his own pitch calling. I don't see him look into the dugout every pitch, that's for sure. With Mes, it is a lot more frequent.

There have been many pitches in the dirt, wild pitches that Hanigan would have eaten up that have gotten past Mes. Hanigan is the superior defensive catcher in my mind.

If you'd ask the pitchers who they'd rather be throwing to, I'm pretty sure the percentages would outweigh their current start percentages (60/40) and be closer to 75% saying they'd rather throw to Hanigan. We know that Arroyo has stated he prefers throwing to Hanigan. Likely Cueto may have said the same if Dusty had asked.

I like Mes, but he has been clueless at bat several times. Swinging at first pitches, etc. when the game dictates that he should take a few.

He's not the first #1 rookie to take a back seat at starting every day. And let's not start to think he's the next coming of Johnny Bench, Carlton Fisk, Ivan Rodriguez or Mike Piazza at this point in his career. I like him, but he has a lot to prove in the show. Also, let's not pretend that Mesoraco TORE up the minors like Wieters, Posey or Mauer - he struggled a lot at times. Check and compare the stats.

I'm 100% comfortable with Hanigan starting at the rate he has been. If he starts hitting .240/.320/.300 then I say it's time for a change.

dougdirt
05-17-2012, 12:02 AM
He's not the first #1 rookie to take a back seat at starting every day. And let's not start to think he's the next coming of Johnny Bench, Carlton Fisk, Ivan Rodriguez or Mike Piazza at this point in his career. I like him, but he has a lot to prove in the show. Also, let's not pretend that Mesoraco TORE up the minors like Wieters, Posey or Mauer - he struggled a lot at times. Check and compare the stats.

To be fair, Mesoraco tore through the minors over his final two seasons. Yes, he struggled at times, but they came a whole lot further away from today than the times where he was crushing it.

kheidg-
05-17-2012, 12:28 AM
To be fair, Mesoraco tore through the minors over his final two seasons. Yes, he struggled at times, but they came a whole lot further away from today than the times where he was crushing it.

You are correct that he played well through his final two seasons, but to stay on the same fairness he tore up high A ball for part of the 2010 season. As a 22 year old, the other 3 players I was comparing were all in AAA. Also, the level of his play wasn't something that could be particularly classified as tearing. Except for his high A and AA stints in 2010.

Posey (3 years/631 abs) - .333/.427/.542 - 98/102 bb/k ratio
Mauer (4 years/1096 abs) - .330/.406/.427 - 138/109 bb/k ratio
Wieters (2 years/578 abs) - .343/.438/.576 - 102/106 bb/k ratio

Now that is tearing up the minor leagues.

Mesoraco (5 years/1588 abs) - .269/.349/.455 - 165/329 bb/k ratio

Mesoraco is a very good rookie. However, he is still very raw. He also seems to be a slow starter at the various levels and it takes him some time to adjust. In nearly a full season at AAA last year he only OPS'd .855.

The Reds goal this season should be first and foremost to win ball games. As other posters have said we can't have the majors be a development stage, especially at the catcher position. Devin seems to be studying, learning and enjoying the playing time he is getting. I think it is helping him. If the Reds brass thought it was better he play every day in the minors, they would have done so. I think he can help the Reds win some games this year - and his time should come in due time. That said, he is not a can't miss prospect - even if he is ranked #1 in the Reds system.

powersackers
05-17-2012, 01:36 AM
You are correct that he played well through his final two seasons, but to stay on the same fairness he tore up high A ball for part of the 2010 season. As a 22 year old, the other 3 players I was comparing were all in AAA. Also, the level of his play wasn't something that could be particularly classified as tearing. Except for his high A and AA stints in 2010.

Posey (3 years/631 abs) - .333/.427/.542 - 98/102 bb/k ratio
Mauer (4 years/1096 abs) - .330/.406/.427 - 138/109 bb/k ratio
Wieters (2 years/578 abs) - .343/.438/.576 - 102/106 bb/k ratio

Now that is tearing up the minor leagues.

Mesoraco (5 years/1588 abs) - .269/.349/.455 - 165/329 bb/k ratio

Mesoraco is a very good rookie. However, he is still very raw. He also seems to be a slow starter at the various levels and it takes him some time to adjust. In nearly a full season at AAA last year he only OPS'd .855.

The Reds goal this season should be first and foremost to win ball games. As other posters have said we can't have the majors be a development stage, especially at the catcher position. Devin seems to be studying, learning and enjoying the playing time he is getting. I think it is helping him. If the Reds brass thought it was better he play every day in the minors, they would have done so. I think he can help the Reds win some games this year - and his time should come in due time. That said, he is not a can't miss prospect - even if he is ranked #1 in the Reds system.


Who says he isn't developed? By the time your reach the bigs and have 1500 PAs in the minors you've moved past development. Now it's production and adjustment time. But that requires regular playing time.

mdccclxix
05-17-2012, 08:26 AM
What was up with that LIDR last night, putting Hannigan in?

Teams are running on Mez now, not because they should per se, but because they want to know they can't before they don't.

Dusty's going to keep putting Mez in spots to succeed, it's up to him to succeed.

His defensive issues tell me he's going to have to OPS north of .900 to wrestle 60% of the starts away from Hannigan. But even then we may continue to see LIDR's happen to hold leads, I guess.

I'm fine with the way things are as of now and think they're handling it in everyone's collective interest.

Bumstead
05-17-2012, 09:29 AM
Disagree 100%
He has proven to favor players of all types to a fault at times. It's a good trait as quite often, sticking with a guy after the fans would've pulled the plug on the guy results in the guy breaking out of that slump and going on to a solid year. He's very patient, moreso than the fanbase, that's for certain.

It's not patience, it's called being stubborn. Neifi Perez ever break out of that slump? Ramon Ramirez? Gomes? Fred Lewis? Willie Harris? Yeah, you're right...:eek: Managers who continue to manage the same way when they aren't winning shouldn't be surprised when they continue to not win. Now that Dusty has to play Frazier (after Jockety removed another pet) how's he playing? Yeah, these young guys should just sit the bench cause they couldn't possibly be better than the "veterans."

At worst Hannigan and Mes should be splitting time. .714OPS is nothing to be excited about unless it is a pitcher or Paul Janish (which isn't happening).

Bum

dougdirt
05-17-2012, 09:48 AM
Dusty's going to keep putting Mez in spots to succeed, it's up to him to succeed.


How is Dusty putting him in spots to succeed? He faces whoever Bailey and Leake face. That isn't picking spots, its random placement based on nothing involving the catcher at all.

_Sir_Charles_
05-17-2012, 10:42 AM
It's not patience, it's called being stubborn. Neifi Perez ever break out of that slump? Ramon Ramirez? Gomes? Fred Lewis? Willie Harris? Yeah, you're right...:eek: Managers who continue to manage the same way when they aren't winning shouldn't be surprised when they continue to not win. Now that Dusty has to play Frazier (after Jockety removed another pet) how's he playing? Yeah, these young guys should just sit the bench cause they couldn't possibly be better than the "veterans."

At worst Hannigan and Mes should be splitting time. .714OPS is nothing to be excited about unless it is a pitcher or Paul Janish (which isn't happening).

Bum

Dusty has routinely played the young kids. To say otherwise is to ignore facts. As for guys breaking out of slumps....you picked some of the guys who DIDN'T....but what about all the ones who did? I'm not going to say Dusty's a great manager, but one of his strongest traits is this exact one you're slamming him for. It's also one of the reasons players love to play for him.

And the .714 ops of Hanigan....ops is about the last thing I look for in ANY catcher. Defense first, handling of staff and game calling second...any offense is a bonus. And while Hanny doesn't have pop...he's got a LOT of other worthy offensive skills.

Bumstead
05-17-2012, 10:58 AM
Dusty has routinely played the young kids. To say otherwise is to ignore facts. As for guys breaking out of slumps....you picked some of the guys who DIDN'T....but what about all the ones who did? I'm not going to say Dusty's a great manager, but one of his strongest traits is this exact one you're slamming him for. It's also one of the reasons players love to play for him.

And the .714 ops of Hanigan....ops is about the last thing I look for in ANY catcher. Defense first, handling of staff and game calling second...any offense is a bonus. And while Hanny doesn't have pop...he's got a LOT of other worthy offensive skills.

I noticed there were no names for all the guys that broke out of their slumps...It's easy to like a guy who plays you everyday regardless of whether you contribute to winning or not. Players liking a manager that manages a team to the point of underachievement doesn't lead to winning. If I managed my people the way Dusty does, I would already have been fired. His consistently playing players that aren't producing and losing games the Reds should win because of it is inexcusable.

I don't dislike Hanigan at all, but he is and will be a backup catcher. Mesoraco has a chance to be a special player at CATCHER. Offense is important at any position. Mes has a chance to be well beyond an average offensive catcher with solid catching skills. The Reds aren't hitting period. Mes could improve that at a position that doesn't normally hit that well. If the Reds aren't going to get a real LF or some form of a cleanup hitter, get the offense where you can. Otherwise we can all just listen to the "dusty" Dusty excuses; he has had those same excuses everywhere he's been.

At some point there comes a time to get some pledge and remove the dust.

Bum

Always Red
05-17-2012, 11:12 AM
http://cincinnati.reds.mlb.com/stats/sortable.jsp?c_id=cin#playerType=ALL&sectionType=sp&statType=fielding&page_type=SortablePlayer&season=2012&season_type=ANY&sportCode='mlb'&league_code='MLB'&split=&team_id=113&active_sw=&game_type='R'&position='2'&sortOrder='desc'&sortColumn=fpct&results=&page=1&perPage=50&timeframe=&extended=0&last_x_days=&ts=1337268713061&tab_level=child&click_text=Sortable+Player+fielding

Mes has caught 42% of the innings this year. He's getting plenty of chances.

Hanigan is outplaying him, at the plate and defensively thus far.

I thought the goal was for the Reds to win baseball games?

Mes needs to push Hanny, and I think he will, once his feet are under him and he gains confidence. Until then, I like things like they are with Reds catching.

This team does have a hitting problem. Catcher is not this teams problem. Mes playing more is not going to get more production out of 3B and LF and SS and CF. And 2B.

_Sir_Charles_
05-17-2012, 11:16 AM
I noticed there were no names for all the guys that broke out of their slumps

Sorry, I'm at work. I don't have time to do the research. I'm going by memory.


...It's easy to like a guy who plays you everyday regardless of whether you contribute to winning or not. Players liking a manager that manages a team to the point of underachievement doesn't lead to winning. If I managed my people the way Dusty does, I would already have been fired. His consistently playing players that aren't producing and losing games the Reds should win because of it is inexcusable.

I don't dislike Hanigan at all, but he is and will be a backup catcher. Mesoraco has a chance to be a special player at CATCHER. Offense is important at any position. Mes has a chance to be well beyond an average offensive catcher with solid catching skills. The Reds aren't hitting period. Mes could improve that at a position that doesn't normally hit that well. If the Reds aren't going to get a real LF or some form of a cleanup hitter, get the offense where you can. Otherwise we can all just listen to the "dusty" Dusty excuses; he has had those same excuses everywhere he's been.

At some point there comes a time to get some pledge and remove the dust.

Bum

I think you're underestimating Hanny. And I'm all for Mesoraco getting more playing time. But I want to see him eased into it. He's got more important things to learn than hitting in the bigs. And alot of that can be learned from the sidelines. He'll get his chance. Sooner rather than later.

dougdirt
05-17-2012, 12:26 PM
Sorry, I'm at work. I don't have time to do the research. I'm going by memory.



I think you're underestimating Hanny. And I'm all for Mesoraco getting more playing time. But I want to see him eased into it. He's got more important things to learn than hitting in the bigs. And alot of that can be learned from the sidelines. He'll get his chance. Sooner rather than later.

What is he going to learn from the sidelines?

Bumstead
05-17-2012, 12:43 PM
What is he going to learn from the sidelines?

How to chew sunflower seeds. How to split up lefties and righties in the lineup. How to turn a pitcher with Randy Johnson potential into a set up man...That's all I could come up with...

LoganBuck
05-17-2012, 01:00 PM
What was up with that LIDR last night, putting Hannigan in?

Teams are running on Mez now, not because they should per se, but because they want to know they can't before they don't.

Dusty's going to keep putting Mez in spots to succeed, it's up to him to succeed.

His defensive issues tell me he's going to have to OPS north of .900 to wrestle 60% of the starts away from Hannigan. But even then we may continue to see LIDR's happen to hold leads, I guess.

I'm fine with the way things are as of now and think they're handling it in everyone's collective interest.

I find it funny that Mesoraco is usually Hanigans LIBRR. (Late Inning Base Running Replacement)

REDREAD
05-17-2012, 01:28 PM
We are 18-17...how's that working out? Hannigan is a backup catcher going forward and Mesoraco will be the starter. It's not even a question. Mesoraco has the ability to be a difference maker offensively and solid defensively. How's our offense? Dusty has proven to favor veterans to a fault time after time; it's an obvious trait of his, so, no, I think he's just favoring the veteran over playing the rookie with any consistency. I realize he has his excuses for doing it that way, I have just grown weary of hearing them. If we were leading the division and scoring runs, then I wouldn't have a problem with how Mes is being used. We're not in either case. Continuing to do the same thing that isn't working isn't what one likes to see from a "Manager."

Bum

I disagree.
Just this year, Ludwick was benched for Heisey. Frasier is getting playing time over the veteran utility players. There's no evidence Dusty blindly favors vets over young players during his tenure in Cincy.

Mez is struggling offensively now. Playing time is earned, not given.
Hannigan is outplaying him at this point.
If Mez was handed the starting job, the W-L record would probably be worse than it is now.

REDREAD
05-17-2012, 01:32 PM
I like Hannigan a lot, but I think some of you are overstating one part of his game. We actually know very little about how he calls a game. Price and Baker are calling the game from the dugout.

That is a good point. However, a good catcher can get a "feel" for what pitches are working or not working for the pitcher. I'd rather Mez get really comfortable with Leake and Homer as opposed to assigning random pitcher-catcher tandems.

I am in no way blaming Mez for Homer and Leake's struggles either.

Bumstead
05-17-2012, 01:36 PM
I disagree.
Just this year, Ludwick was benched for Heisey. Frasier is getting playing time over the veteran utility players. There's no evidence Dusty blindly favors vets over young players during his tenure in Cincy.

Mez is struggling offensively now. Playing time is earned, not given.
Hannigan is outplaying him at this point.
If Mez was handed the starting job, the W-L record would probably be worse than it is now.

Heisey has been out-playing everyone in LF for at least 2 years and is just now getting his due. Frazier (note the 'z') is only playing now because Rolen is hurt and Jockety eliminated one of Dusty's early season pets (Willie Harris). I have already presented veteran players that got undeserved playing time in a prior post (I did leave Cairo off that list from last season however erroneously); to have to type their names out again because someone can't read all those posts doesn't seem worth it to me.

You have zero basis for suggesting the Reds record would be worse than it is now if Hannigan and Mes were splitting the position. I guess if you think this is a .500 team then you should be happy with where we stand; at least you will be happy as Dusty continues to manage exactly the same regardless of what the record is, not paying any attention to the combinations that lead the Reds to wins.

Bum

REDREAD
05-17-2012, 01:40 PM
It's not patience, it's called being stubborn. Neifi Perez ever break out of that slump? Ramon Ramirez? Gomes? Fred Lewis? Willie Harris? Yeah, you're right...:eek: Managers who continue to manage the same way when they aren't winning shouldn't be surprised when they continue to not win. Now that Dusty has to play Frazier (after Jockety removed another pet) how's he playing? Yeah, these young guys should just sit the bench cause they couldn't possibly be better than the "veterans."

At worst Hannigan and Mes should be splitting time. .714OPS is nothing to be excited about unless it is a pitcher or Paul Janish (which isn't happening).

Bum


You can't be serious about Willie Harris.
He was the only LH hitter on the bench. He got 35 ABs in 19 games. Cairo's injury got him some playing time too.

Who should Dusty have played over Gomes and Fred Lewis (183 ABs, reasonable for a 5th OF when the LF starter is Gomes). Heisey wasn't exactly tearing it up either.

Also, Dusty isn't forced to play Frasier at all. They have Cario, Constanzo, and Valdez to play 3b.. Dusty chose to play Frasier. Also, there's not a ML manager in baseball that would've benched a player like Rolen for a marginal prospect like Frasier.

REDREAD
05-17-2012, 01:47 PM
Heisey has been out-playing everyone in LF for at least 2 years and is just now getting his due. Frazier (note the 'z') is only playing now because Rolen is hurt and Jockety eliminated one of Dusty's early season pets (Willie Harris). I have already presented veteran players that got undeserved playing time in a prior post (I did leave Cairo off that list from last season however erroneously); to have to type their names out again because someone can't read all those posts doesn't seem worth it to me.

You have zero basis for suggesting the Reds record would be worse than it is now if Hannigan and Mes were splitting the position. I guess if you think this is a .500 team then you should be happy with where we stand; at least you will be happy as Dusty continues to manage exactly the same regardless of what the record is, not paying any attention to the combinations that lead the Reds to wins.

Bum

Heisey has a 636 OPS this year. He's off to a slow start, but Dusty is still giving him a chance.

Mesoaraco has a 599 OPS .. worse than Hannigan's 714 that you bemoan.
He certainly hasn't made the most of his 42% playing time. But Dusty is still being patient and sticking with him.

You do realize that the 5th OF and utility infielders sometimes have to be given starts to rest the everyday players, right? I don't understand how that is giving them "undeserved playing time".

bucksfan2
05-17-2012, 01:50 PM
Heisey has been out-playing everyone in LF for at least 2 years and is just now getting his due. Frazier (note the 'z') is only playing now because Rolen is hurt and Jockety eliminated one of Dusty's early season pets (Willie Harris). I have already presented veteran players that got undeserved playing time in a prior post (I did leave Cairo off that list from last season however erroneously); to have to type their names out again because someone can't read all those posts doesn't seem worth it to me.

You have zero basis for suggesting the Reds record would be worse than it is now if Hannigan and Mes were splitting the position. I guess if you think this is a .500 team then you should be happy with where we stand; at least you will be happy as Dusty continues to manage exactly the same regardless of what the record is, not paying any attention to the combinations that lead the Reds to wins.

Bum

Chris Heisey's career line is: .253/.312/.447. Its really nothing to write home about. Its nothing that screams "Play Me!" In reality Heisey has been given a chance to play but he really hasn't backed it up.

So far this season Ryan Hanigan has a .363 OBP. Just going off the top of my head I would guess that is 3rd among all regulars on the team. For a team that often has trouble making contact and striking out their fair share, someone who can find 1b is a good thing, right? Its not like Mesoraco is getting 10% of the at bats, rather 40%.

What has Frazier done when given a chance to start? With the exception of last night all the damage Frazier has done came as a PH. When given the chance to start Frazier hasn't done much. And since Rolen has gone on the DL Frazier has gotten the majority of starts.

The Dusty vet love has been disproven time and time again, yet some people keep bringing it up.

Bumstead
05-17-2012, 02:01 PM
Chris Heisey's career line is: .253/.312/.447. Its really nothing to write home about. Its nothing that screams "Play Me!" In reality Heisey has been given a chance to play but he really hasn't backed it up.

The Dusty vet love has been disproven time and time again, yet some people keep bringing it up.

The other LF's that were on the Reds say "hi." In comparison to those guys, Heisey's play has screamed "play me!"

Vet love may have been blown off but it's never been "disproven."

Bum

Big Klu
05-17-2012, 03:27 PM
Heisey has a 636 OPS this year. He's off to a slow start, but Dusty is still giving him a chance.

Mesoaraco has a 599 OPS .. worse than Hannigan's 714 that you bemoan.
He certainly hasn't made the most of his 42% playing time. But Dusty is still being patient and sticking with him.

You do realize that the 5th OF and utility infielders sometimes have to be given starts to rest the everyday players, right? I don't understand how that is giving them "undeserved playing time".

It's undeserved because on my PS3 I can play the same guys every game. ;)

Bumstead
05-17-2012, 03:34 PM
It's undeserved because on my PS3 I can play the same guys every game. ;)

Let the record show that I don't have a PS3, but I do have OOTP13... ;)

REDREAD
05-17-2012, 04:02 PM
It's undeserved because on my PS3 I can play the same guys every game. ;)

Man, hasn't Dusty ever played PS3? :lol: