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Spitball
05-15-2012, 09:31 PM
I am worried that the #1 and 2 batters lacking obp skills and the number four batter lacking true number four power are hurting Votto's ability to produce.

If the guys infront of him are not on base, why would pitchers be worried about walking him? If the guy behind him is not a true power hitter, why would the pitcher be worried about giving him something to hit?

Tom Servo
05-15-2012, 09:32 PM
I just do not at all understand putting Phillips back in the clean-up spot, it never worked.

757690
05-15-2012, 09:43 PM
I don't know who Protection is, or who he plays for, but I'd doubt I would trade Votto straight up for him. ;)

Spitball
05-15-2012, 09:59 PM
I don't know who Projection is, or who he plays for, but I'd doubt I would trade Votto straight up for him. ;)

When I posted the title of this thread, I worried some might think his life was in danger.

dougdirt
05-15-2012, 10:33 PM
That guy with a .974 OPS can't hit clean up to protect Votto. Lefties can't protect lefties, everyone knows that.

Spitball
05-15-2012, 10:42 PM
It is foolish to worry about a potential loogy for one situation when the game is made up of so many more situations.

RedsManRick
05-16-2012, 12:23 AM
The best way to protect Votto is to put a man on 1B ahead of him. Batting Stubbs 2nd is not a great way to do that.

dougdirt
05-16-2012, 06:56 AM
The best way to protect Votto is to put a man on 1B ahead of him. Batting Stubbs 2nd is not a great way to do that.

With the way this team is going, only two guys should be there and neither are options for Dusty because the catcher bats 8th and you can't hit lefties back to back so neither is Bruce. I think if Bruce hits behind Votto, no one on base for Votto or not, he will get more pitches to hit.

Brandon Phillips in the clean up spot is a freaking joke. It really is.

edabbs44
05-16-2012, 07:10 AM
If (a) protection matters as much as some believe and (b) Bruce is a good enough hitter to cause opposing managers to not pitch around Joey, then how is Jay hitting so well with roughly the same amount of protection that Votto has?

dougdirt
05-16-2012, 07:24 AM
If (a) protection matters as much as some believe and (b) Bruce is a good enough hitter to cause opposing managers to not pitch around Joey, then how is Jay hitting so well with roughly the same amount of protection that Votto has?

Joey Votto has 500 intentional walks this year. He would probably be hitting a little better than he is if teams had to throw to him a few more pitches. But since Brandon Phillips is feared by no one, Votto just gets a free pass to first base.

Jay is hitting so well because he and Votto are both really good hitters.

redsmetz
05-16-2012, 07:45 AM
Joey Votto has 500 intentional walks this year. He would probably be hitting a little better than he is if teams had to throw to him a few more pitches. But since Brandon Phillips is feared by no one, Votto just gets a free pass to first base.

Jay is hitting so well because he and Votto are both really good hitters.

Doug, do you want to edit this statement. Since he only has 33 walks thus far, I have no idea what the number of intentional walks he has so far.

jhu1321
05-16-2012, 12:45 PM
Joey Votto has 500 intentional walks this year. He would probably be hitting a little better than he is if teams had to throw to him a few more pitches. But since Brandon Phillips is feared by no one, Votto just gets a free pass to first base.

Jay is hitting so well because he and Votto are both really good hitters.

YES!

PuffyPig
05-16-2012, 01:18 PM
FWIW, the lack of protection certainly hasn't prevented Votto from producing a 1.000+ OPS this season.

Tom Servo
05-16-2012, 01:24 PM
FWIW, the lack of protection certainly hasn't prevented Votto from producing a 1.000+ OPS this season.
or getting 500 intentional walks.

PuffyPig
05-16-2012, 02:20 PM
or getting 500 intentional walks.


If Votto walks 500 timesthis season he will have the greatest offensive season ever.

baserunners=runs

CesarGeronimo
05-16-2012, 02:41 PM
Doug, do you want to edit this statement. Since he only has 33 walks thus far, I have no idea what the number of intentional walks he has so far.

Votto now has 34 walks and that leads the major leagues. I think Doug's point is right on target.

dougdirt
05-16-2012, 02:47 PM
Doug, do you want to edit this statement. Since he only has 33 walks thus far, I have no idea what the number of intentional walks he has so far.

Baseball-reference.com has all of your answers.

dougdirt
05-16-2012, 02:50 PM
For the record, Votto walked 15.3% of the time last season. This year, he is up to 21.9%. That is a 43% increase over last year. He led the NL in walks with 110. Given the same PA's, he would walk 158 times. While that is awesome, I would rather Votto swing at some extra strikes throughout the season that he simply isn't going to get by batting Brandon Phillips behind him.

CesarGeronimo
05-16-2012, 03:03 PM
I just do not at all understand putting Phillips back in the clean-up spot, it never worked.

Phillips as cleanup hitter - seems to swing at almost everything, tries to pull everything, looks like he's trying to set a new record for home run distance on almost every at bat and is too often retired on one or two pitches. He'll get some big hits and homers on occasion, but is sometimes hard to watch, especially against right-handed pitchers and pitchers who intentionally don't throw him strikes, knowing he'll swing anyway.

Phillips as leadoff hitter - somewhat patient, tries to go with the pitch and hit to all fields, goes a little deeper in counts and is more successful at getting on base. Surprisingly effective compared to his performance as a cleanup hitter.

I know that some people will say this is a gross exaggeration and they're probably right, but it looks this way to me and has for a long time.

CesarGeronimo
05-16-2012, 03:09 PM
That guy with a .974 OPS can't hit clean up to protect Votto. Lefties can't protect lefties, everyone knows that.

Among the Reds' regular starters, the top two in OPS against lefties are Joey Votto at .894 and Jay Bruce at .808. Yet, Dusty's biggest concern in constructing his lineup is that Votto and Bruce must be split up for fear that opponents will bring in a lefty reliever against them. Somehow, that wouldn't be my biggest concern in constructing a lineup for the Reds! Or my second biggest concern. Or third biggest. Or fourth biggest. . .

Reds against lefties: http://espn.go.com/mlb/team/stats/batting/_/name/cin/cat/OPS/split/31/cincinnati-reds (a good start this season by Heisey and Frazier against lefties, by the way).

_Sir_Charles_
05-16-2012, 03:14 PM
Phillips as cleanup hitter - seems to swing at almost everything, tries to pull everything, looks like he's trying to set a new record for home run distance on almost every at bat and is too often retired on one or two pitches. He'll get some big hits and homers on occasion, but is sometimes hard to watch, especially against right-handed pitchers and pitchers who intentionally don't throw him strikes, knowing he'll swing anyway.

Phillips as leadoff hitter - somewhat patient, tries to go with the pitch and hit to all fields, goes a little deeper in counts and is more successful at getting on base. Surprisingly effective compared to his performance as a cleanup hitter.

I know that some people will say this is a gross exaggeration and they're probably right, but it looks this way to me and has for a long time.

You're not alone Cesar. I've been saying the same thing for a long time. Phillips alters his approach at the plate depending upon what the stereotype is for that particular role. Cleanup...gotta be a banger. Leadoff...gotta be patient and fast. 2 hole...3 hole...6 hole...etc, etc, etc. I'd prefer leadoff but without a "green light" on the bases.

defender
05-16-2012, 03:18 PM
Splitting the lefties worked on Monday.

CesarGeronimo
05-16-2012, 03:22 PM
Splitting the lefties worked on Monday.

Yes and I imagine that's the point that Dusty took from that game, as well.

But I also remember a couple of key hits and big games by both Corey Patterson and Willy Taveras where having them as the Reds' leadoff hitter "worked" on a given day.

RichRed
05-16-2012, 03:28 PM
For his career, BP is almost an identical hitter from the leadoff spot or the cleanup spot:

Leadoff: .275/.336/.445 - .781 OPS
Cleanup: .278/.328/.449 - .777 OPS

Of course, he's still not a better choice than Bruce for the cleanup spot, but I don't think it's because of a radical change in approach.

At the very least, Phillips should never bat cleanup against righties, not with a line of .263/.313/.409/.721 against them. I can live with BP batting cleanup against lefties for the time being (.295/.343/.495/.838), though I'd still prefer Bruce there.

_Sir_Charles_
05-16-2012, 03:39 PM
For his career, BP is almost an identical hitter from the leadoff spot or the cleanup spot:

Leadoff: .275/.336/.445 - .781 OPS
Cleanup: .278/.328/.449 - .777 OPS

Of course, he's still not a better choice than Bruce for the cleanup spot, but I don't think it's because of a radical change in approach.

At the very least, Phillips should never bat cleanup against righties, not with a line of .263/.313/.409/.721 against them. I can live with BP batting cleanup against lefties for the time being (.295/.343/.495/.838), though I'd still prefer Bruce there.

I think Cesar and I were thinking more along the lines of what he did last season in those roles.

Leadoff: .350/.417/.990
Cleanup: .269/.321/.714

Over the course of his career, Phillips has changed as a hitter IMO (depending on his role). He's become more patient than he was. He doesn't dive for balls out of the zone as much as he used to. He doesn't roll over the ball and hit into DP's as much. I'm sure much of that is just my selective memory, but I think there is something to it.