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View Full Version : Todd Frazier: Cleanup Hitter?



RedsManRick
05-16-2012, 09:44 PM
After his 2 HR tonight, I thought I'd just throw it out there. Rolen would have been batting there anyways. It's not like we have some great alternative. Cozart is scuffling. Move BP up to leadoff again, Frazier to cleanup, Cozart to 6/7. Makes sense to me.

Tom Servo
05-16-2012, 09:54 PM
I love Frazier but

Sad Bill Cosby - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d5pCsFw3OsU)

mdccclxix
05-16-2012, 10:27 PM
I think he's a good candidate, but I'd hope Bruce gets another shot before Frazier, who still has a lot to prove in general. But you have to love the way the ball jumps off his bat. Ideal for doubles and LD home runs. Him and Mez seem like they come through the zone pretty even.

PuffyPig
05-16-2012, 10:49 PM
Well, if you are going base everything on one game, let's move Frazier to cleanup nad make Leake our #1 starter.

If there is anything that screams "small sample size", it's one game.

Oh, and strip Joey of his gold glove.

Kc61
05-16-2012, 11:00 PM
I don't know about cleanup hitter. But what a great night for Todd, to come home to the NY/NJ area and hit two big homers. I just watched the replay of his second homer and what a huge grin he had rounding the bases.

And Citi is a big ballpark, no cheap homers there. Great night for Frazier.

RedsManRick
05-16-2012, 11:03 PM
Don't get me wrong guys, he's not my idea either. But assuming Dusty won't move Bruce up, do you really prefer Phillips? Rolen? Heisey?

Brutus
05-16-2012, 11:20 PM
Well, if you are going base everything on one game, let's move Frazier to cleanup nad make Leake our #1 starter.

If there is anything that screams "small sample size", it's one game.

Oh, and strip Joey of his gold glove.

He has a .659 slugging percentage thus far this year, albeit in just under 50 PAs. I can see the argument made regardless of this one game.

PuffyPig
05-16-2012, 11:28 PM
He has a .659 slugging percentage thus far this year, albeit in just under 50 PAs. I can see the argument made regardless of this one game.

Before this game no one was talking about Frazier other than to suggest that Walt was still sitting on his hands about the third base problem.

His SL % was .487 before the 2 HR's, and his OPS was below .800.

If the argument could have been made before this game, it certainly never was. If fact, many suggested that other than his PH appearances, he'd hit virtually nothing as a regular.

RedEye
05-17-2012, 12:30 AM
I know the 2 HR are nice, and that there aren't many other good options, but is there any real evidence that Frazier projects as a competent cleanup hitter? I sure hope that Bruce gets a tryout there before Todd moves in... this LH-RH-LH stubborness is driving me nuts.

WVRedsFan
05-17-2012, 12:57 AM
Let's wait awhile. He's going to be OK, but it's a little early to annoint him so soon. Too soon to know in the glow of a win. Heisey was the latest candidate and he simply showed what he was tonight--a kid with potential. Potential doesn't win ball games. We will know moreau times go on.

RedsManRick
05-17-2012, 01:07 AM
I know the 2 HR are nice, and that there aren't many other good options, but is there any real evidence that Frazier projects as a competent cleanup hitter? I sure hope that Bruce gets a tryout there before Todd moves in... this LH-RH-LH stubborness is driving me nuts.

Clearly the answer is 'no'. But given that we know dusty won't hit Bruce cleanup, it's a question of who's the best option among our current RH bats. And right now, I'd take him over Phillips, Stubbs, Heisey, etc.

Brutus
05-17-2012, 01:19 AM
Before this game no one was talking about Frazier other than to suggest that Walt was still sitting on his hands about the third base problem.

His SL % was .487 before the 2 HR's, and his OPS was below .800.

If the argument could have been made before this game, it certainly never was. If fact, many suggested that other than his PH appearances, he'd hit virtually nothing as a regular.

I think you're painting with too broad a brush about what others have perceived Frazier here on this board. Now, I agree that I'm not sure he's been mentioned as a cleanup hitter, but we all have agreed the Reds don't have a true cleanup hitter, especially if they're committed to splitting up the lefties. With that said, before tonight Frazier would have made as much sense as anyone.

fearofpopvol1
05-17-2012, 01:26 AM
The power (potential) is clearly there. That 2nd home run was an absolute bomb.

Can he maintain it though? Never had a season in the minors where he hit 20 home runs, but he's been over 15 several times, including his stints at AAA.

I don't know if he's truly a better option than Phillips, seeing as Brandon has averaged around 20 home runs each year at the Show since 2006, but maybe.

powersackers
05-17-2012, 01:28 AM
Simple. Yes.

Phillips
Cozart
Votto
Frazier
Bruce
Heisey
Haniroco
Stubbs
SP

It's the best we can do. And I bet even Dusty will see it in about 2 weeks. He usually gets around to good ideas a couple weeks late. :)

AtomicDumpling
05-17-2012, 01:32 AM
Frazier is a better candidate to hit 4th than Phillips is, but I think he should have to slowly earn his way up in the batting order.

Mike Leake is batting .333 so maybe we could move him up in the lineup. :p

Hanigan
Votto
Bruce
Phillips
Cozart
Heisey
Frazier
Stubbs
SP

The Operator
05-17-2012, 03:40 AM
this LH-RH-LH stubborness is driving me nuts.Indeed.

Votto vs. LHP: .894 OPS
Bruce vs. LHP: .808 OPS

Seriously, let some opposing manager get cute and bring in a LOOGY to go through Votto and Bruce back to back. I'll take my chances. Until the Reds bring in somebody worthy of splitting them up, they should be 3-4.

But to answer Rick's question? Yea, sure. If Dusty's simply not going to hit Bruce 4th, Frazier is fine by me.

I just don't like Brandon's approach when he's middle of the order. It's like he goes all Willie Mays Hayes and tries to yank everything out of the yard. Not that extreme, but it's there. Remember how the offense took off in 2010 when Dusty moved Phillips from cleanup to leadoff and slid Rolen (who was killing it at the time) to cleanup? Batting order isn't everything, but it's not as unimportant as some would suggest, either.

GAC
05-17-2012, 04:44 AM
It's not like we have some great alternative.

Yep. We don't. And IMO, just like last year, that #4 spot is going to be an open sore for this team.

mdccclxix
05-17-2012, 07:43 AM
If anything, I wish Phillips would go back to swinging from his heels if he's going to hit clean up. His approach is a hybrid of the old 30 bomb Brandon and the new 15 bomb 40 double Brandon and it's not working. I think Brandon got tired of that old approach, so hitting cleanup is sort of like going backwards for him. Last year he made great strides and I'd like to get back to giving him that opportunity.

As for Frazier, at this point it looks like he's a bit stronger than Brandon. I like that he can hit a breaking ball. That gives him a leg up on Heisey and Ludwick. Seems like his higher K rate is from chasing pitches out of the zone and maybe being a little slow to catch up with good fastballs. But against a lot of pitchers I can see him as a really good option at cleanup. There is a great reward in the concept of a batting order with yet another player drafted by the Reds in it:

BP (honorary Reds draftee)
Stubbs
Votto
Frazier
Bruce
Mez/Hanigan
Heisey
Cozart

Many projected this in one way or another, as prospect mavens will just for the exercise, but could it really have gone this well? My gosh! Is this real?!

flyer85
05-17-2012, 09:58 AM
seems to me the Reds and the Red Sox are going to have a similar issue to deal with it, what to do with an aging vet who has been seriously outplayed by a younger player replacing them during an injury.

Benihana
05-17-2012, 10:23 AM
Indeed.

Votto vs. LHP: .894 OPS
Bruce vs. LHP: .808 OPS

Seriously, let some opposing manager get cute and bring in a LOOGY to go through Votto and Bruce back to back. I'll take my chances. Until the Reds bring in somebody worthy of splitting them up, they should be 3-4.

But to answer Rick's question? Yea, sure. If Dusty's simply not going to hit Bruce 4th, Frazier is fine by me.

I just don't like Brandon's approach when he's middle of the order. It's like he goes all Willie Mays Hayes and tries to yank everything out of the yard. Not that extreme, but it's there. Remember how the offense took off in 2010 when Dusty moved Phillips from cleanup to leadoff and slid Rolen (who was killing it at the time) to cleanup? Batting order isn't everything, but it's not as unimportant as some would suggest, either.

Agreed on all fronts.

edabbs44
05-17-2012, 10:51 AM
Clearly the answer is 'no'. But given that we know dusty won't hit Bruce cleanup, it's a question of who's the best option among our current RH bats. And right now, I'd take him over Phillips, Stubbs, Heisey, etc.

I wouldn't take him over Phillips.

bucksfan2
05-17-2012, 11:06 AM
Indeed.

Votto vs. LHP: .894 OPS
Bruce vs. LHP: .808 OPS

Seriously, let some opposing manager get cute and bring in a LOOGY to go through Votto and Bruce back to back. I'll take my chances. Until the Reds bring in somebody worthy of splitting them up, they should be 3-4.

But to answer Rick's question? Yea, sure. If Dusty's simply not going to hit Bruce 4th, Frazier is fine by me.

I just don't like Brandon's approach when he's middle of the order. It's like he goes all Willie Mays Hayes and tries to yank everything out of the yard. Not that extreme, but it's there. Remember how the offense took off in 2010 when Dusty moved Phillips from cleanup to leadoff and slid Rolen (who was killing it at the time) to cleanup? Batting order isn't everything, but it's not as unimportant as some would suggest, either.

The OPS numbers are for all lefties not just situational lefties right? Its much different facing a LOOGY than it is a starting left hander. Votto is a great hitter against both RHP and LHP. But I remember last year when the Cubs would bring Marshall in to face him and Votto looked awful.

I do wish that Baker would set his lineup based upon what the opposing team has to offer. If they have an average loogy or no lefties in the pen then I don't see why Votto and Bruce hit back to back. But to be honest I don't mind the opposing manager having to make a decision when he puts a loogy in to face Votto and then has Phillips who feasts on LHP.

Chip R
05-17-2012, 11:40 AM
Dusty reads RedsZone!!!

REDREAD
05-17-2012, 01:54 PM
My concern with batting Frasier cleanup is that I project him to be a low OBP guy, with possibly good slugging. I think he will make Votto get pitched around even more with runners in scoring position.

I prefer Phillips. Phillips is given more respect around the league and I feel confident he will be more productive over the course of the season.

Of course, I'd rather have a new cleanup hitter and bat Phillips leadoff, but as the team is constructed now, Philips at cleanup most of the time is ok.

puca
05-17-2012, 02:12 PM
The fact that this discussion is even taking place should tell us something about the Reds offense.

edabbs44
05-17-2012, 07:49 PM
The OPS numbers are for all lefties not just situational lefties right? Its much different facing a LOOGY than it is a starting left hander. Votto is a great hitter against both RHP and LHP. But I remember last year when the Cubs would bring Marshall in to face him and Votto looked awful.

I do wish that Baker would set his lineup based upon what the opposing team has to offer. If they have an average loogy or no lefties in the pen then I don't see why Votto and Bruce hit back to back. But to be honest I don't mind the opposing manager having to make a decision when he puts a loogy in to face Votto and then has Phillips who feasts on LHP.

Agreed. It is much different when facing a legit lefty specialist.

reds44
05-17-2012, 08:05 PM
What is the obsession with people wanting to hit Votto 2nd? Makes no sense.

*BaseClogger*
05-17-2012, 10:41 PM
What is the obsession with people wanting to hit Votto 2nd? Makes no sense.

I'd rather he hit 2nd or 4th than 3rd... :dunno:

AtomicDumpling
05-17-2012, 11:05 PM
What is the obsession with people wanting to hit Votto 2nd? Makes no sense.

So his .400+ OBP is not wasted with two outs so frequently?

reds44
05-17-2012, 11:10 PM
So his .400+ OBP is not wasted with two outs so frequently?
Hit him leadoff!

AtomicDumpling
05-17-2012, 11:18 PM
Hit him leadoff!

Get your best hitters as many at-bats as possible and good things will happen. :thumbup:

*BaseClogger*
05-18-2012, 12:46 AM
Hit him leadoff!

When Leake is pitching that isn't a bad idea!

RedEye
05-18-2012, 09:46 PM
Clearly the answer is 'no'. But given that we know dusty won't hit Bruce cleanup, it's a question of who's the best option among our current RH bats. And right now, I'd take him over Phillips, Stubbs, Heisey, etc.

I guess so. But right now this seems tantamount to rearranging the deck chairs. Bruce should be it -- and if he's not, I'm not sure it makes a lick of difference.

Kc61
05-18-2012, 10:20 PM
Todd needs to field hard grounders cleanly more often. I don't care where he hits in the lineup.

CesarGeronimo
05-18-2012, 11:47 PM
Todd needs to field hard grounders cleanly more often. I don't care where he hits in the lineup.

I agree with you on field hard grounders cleanly and his throws need to be better. Votto has made a couple of nice plays to save Todd from throwing errors the last two games.

I wonder if Frazier works consistently and avidly on playing third better if he will improve much. As most Reds' fans know, he has played all over the place in the minor leagues. Last year in the minors, it was 35 games at 3B, 20 at 1B, 15 in LF and 2 at 2B. The year before, it was 75 in LF, 35 at 3B and 17 at 1B. In years before that, he played even fewer games at 3B. Does all this moving around indicate he doesn't have the skill to excel at 3B or does it mean he hasn't focused on it enough yet to be as good as he can be -- or both?

marcshoe
05-19-2012, 12:14 AM
Good point. I remember that a couple of years ago he was mostly being talked about as a left fielder. Where did the Reds use him mostly in Spring Training this year? To become a more comfortable defender at third is likely going to take just sticking him there for an extended period. And it should work--he's not another Dan Driessen, who was as incompetent a third basemen as I've ever seen, yet turned out to be a pretty good defensive first baseman. I think Todd can handle third.

dougdirt
05-19-2012, 12:15 AM
I agree with you on field hard grounders cleanly and his throws need to be better. Votto has made a couple of nice plays to save Todd from throwing errors the last two games.

I wonder if Frazier works consistently and avidly on playing third better if he will improve much. As most Reds' fans know, he has played all over the place in the minor leagues. Last year in the minors, it was 35 games at 3B, 20 at 1B, 15 in LF and 2 at 2B. The year before, it was 75 in LF, 35 at 3B and 17 at 1B. In years before that, he played even fewer games at 3B. Does all this moving around indicate he doesn't have the skill to excel at 3B or does it mean he hasn't focused on it enough yet to be as good as he can be -- or both?
The Reds staff in the minors always contended that Todd could play 3B, but since he could also play elsewhere and Juan Francisco couldn't, that Todd played elsewhere.

CesarGeronimo
05-19-2012, 12:24 AM
The Reds staff in the minors always contended that Todd could play 3B, but since he could also play elsewhere and Juan Francisco couldn't, that Todd played elsewhere.

Thanks for your response and explanation. How quickly I forgot about the Francisco factor in pushing Frazier off of third in the minors. Did you watch him play much in Louisville and, if so, what do you think about his potential to play 3B adequately?

dougdirt
05-19-2012, 12:56 AM
Thanks for your response and explanation. How quickly I forgot about the Francisco factor in pushing Frazier off of third in the minors. Did you watch him play much in Louisville and, if so, what do you think about his potential to play 3B adequately?

I think he will be fine there. Much like Brandon Phillips is going to have ruined us one day, Scott Rolen has already. Frazier is probably an average defender at third base.

_Sir_Charles_
05-19-2012, 11:16 AM
The Reds staff in the minors always contended that Todd could play 3B, but since he could also play elsewhere and Juan Francisco couldn't, that Todd played elsewhere.

This. There was never any doubt that Todd could handle 3rd. Moving him off of there wasn't in an effort to make him more versatile. It was in order to move Juan to third...Todd just got shuffled because he COULD. And because he "could" he's been pigeonholed into a view that he's a utility player. He's not. Versatile, yes. But given regular reps, he's a starter IMO.

OnBaseMachine
05-30-2012, 03:52 AM
Through 85 plate appearances, Frazier is hitting .278/.329/.620 - .949 OPS with 14 extra-base hits. Those power numbers are impressive. It's highly doubtful he continues to post an OPS that high but I think his power is real. He could be a 20-25 HR guy at the major league level, IMO. That, along with his great personality is making him one of the favorite Reds ever.

camisadelgolf
05-30-2012, 06:36 AM
Frazier's slugging better than Votto (.595) so far this year.

Tom Servo
05-30-2012, 12:50 PM
Through 85 plate appearances, Frazier is hitting .278/.329/.620 - .949 OPS with 14 extra-base hits. Those power numbers are impressive. It's highly doubtful he continues to post an OPS that high but I think his power is real. He could be a 20-25 HR guy at the major league level, IMO. That, along with his great personality is making him one of the favorite Reds ever.
Same. Plus he's an NJ kid like me. :beerme:

dougdirt
05-30-2012, 12:54 PM
Same. Plus he's an NJ kid like me. :beerme:

I thought we were trying to talk about the good things? :laugh:

Brutus
05-30-2012, 03:08 PM
I've been on the Frazier bandwagon all year. I mentioned it even before the two-homer game, but when I brought it up after the two-homer game, it was suggested myself and others on the bandwagon were only doing so because of one game.

I don't think he's a prototypical cleanup hitter nor do I think he'll continue to stay above .900 OPS, but I do think he's the best candidate for a cleanup guy the Reds have while still keeping Votto/Bruce apart.

RedlegJake
05-30-2012, 03:38 PM
I've been a Frazier fan, too, albeit, I think he belongs at third and not so much left field. I also wouldn't have pegged him for cleanup but right now I think he is the Reds best option. Ride his hot hand at the very least and get BP back at the top of the order and slide Cozart back to 6th or 7th.

edabbs44
05-30-2012, 07:38 PM
I'll still take Phillips over Todd in the 4 hole.

dougdirt
05-30-2012, 08:15 PM
I'll still take Phillips over Todd in the 4 hole.

Even if it means Cozart keeps batting 1st?

Raisor
05-30-2012, 09:25 PM
Even if it means Cozart keeps batting 1st?

I agree, Frazier at clean up possibly helps two lineup slots.

edabbs44
05-30-2012, 09:51 PM
Even if it means Cozart keeps batting 1st?

What about Stubbs/Frazier hitting 1/2?

reds44
05-30-2012, 09:57 PM
They need to put Cozart back batting 2nd where he murdered the ball.

alloverjr
05-30-2012, 10:05 PM
What about Stubbs/Frazier hitting 1/2?

Stubbs doesn't want to leadoff (per Brantley) and he stinks at it anyway. Frazier doesn't mind hitting 1st, but alas, also stinks at it. There really is no good options at 1 or 4 (assuming Bruce isn't allowed to bat there) on this club. I don't like Frazier at the 4 any more than Heisey, but changes really do need to be made. Oh, and Phillips doesn't like hitting 4th. When's Hamilton ready?

dougdirt
05-30-2012, 11:23 PM
When's Hamilton ready?

2014ish.

757690
05-31-2012, 02:21 AM
I really don't think lineups matter much, but I think the smartest move would be to bat Votto second. Stubbs leads off, but has Votto behind him. Phillips bat third and Bruce fourth. This lets Dusty to split the lefites, and Bruce bats cleanup.

*BaseClogger*
05-31-2012, 02:53 AM
I really don't think lineups matter much, but I think the smartest move would be to bat Votto second. Stubbs leads off, but has Votto behind him. Phillips bat third and Bruce fourth. This lets Dusty to split the lefites, and Bruce bats cleanup.

I was thinking the same the other day. Votto is more of a OBP/gap power hitter anyways, so it's not like moving him to second would lead to a bunch of solo homers.

It splits the lefties while getting Votto and Bruce more PAs.

I'm a proponent of putting your "respect" hitter third. That's exactly what Phillips is--a good hitting second baseman but not truly worthy of hitting in the middle of the order.

Shame it'll never happen...

cincyinco
05-31-2012, 03:59 AM
Votto 2nd? No way.

Move Phillips to the lead off spot, he does pretty well there IMO - and as an added bonus this helps reduce his DatDudeDP tendencies. Leave Stubbs in the 2 spot where he's excelled. Put Frazier where Rolen was batting and slide Cozy down in the order where there's less pressure and his power can be utilized. He's got some pop for a SS.

*BaseClogger*
05-31-2012, 11:58 AM
Votto 2nd? No way.

"No way" because you think it is a bad idea or because you know it will never happen?

klw
05-31-2012, 12:42 PM
Last night in the 9th inning, Dusty pinch hit for Frazier (.916 OPS) instead of the next hitter, Miguel Cairo- hitting .152, OPS of.419. Something tells me that we should not be neither concerned nor excited by the possibility of Frazier being moved into the 4 spot any time soon. Oh Frazier has 5 HR's this year, Cairo has 5 hits.

CySeymour
05-31-2012, 01:13 PM
Votto 2nd? No way.

Makes perfect sense to me.

No one is getting on in front of him, so you wouldn't be taking any less advantage of his power, but you would be taking more advantage of his OBP skills.

reds44
05-31-2012, 02:13 PM
Makes perfect sense to me.

No one is getting on in front of him, so you wouldn't be taking any less advantage of his power, but you would be taking more advantage of his OBP skills.
So then hit him leadoff. Then bat the pitcher 6th so you have a possibility of 3 guys getting on base before he comes up for the second time. Maximizes his ABs and still gives him a chance to hit with guys on base.

Votto
Bruce
Frazier
Heisey
Stubbs
Pitcher
Hanigan
Cozart
Phillips

Right??

alloverjr
05-31-2012, 02:31 PM
So then hit him leadoff. Then bat the pitcher 6th so you have a possibility of 3 guys getting on base before he comes up for the second time. Maximizes his ABs and still gives him a chance to hit with guys on base.

Votto
Bruce
Frazier
Heisey
Stubbs
Pitcher
Hanigan
Cozart
Phillips

Right??

WHAT?!

That will NEVER happen. There's 2 lefties hitting back-to-back. :p

Tom Servo
05-31-2012, 02:35 PM
Yeah and catcher bats 8th, dude.

CesarGeronimo
05-31-2012, 03:36 PM
Yeah and catcher bats 8th, dude.

So what would Dusty's Big Red Machine 75-76 lineup have been? Something like?

Geronimo
Concepcion
Morgan
Foster
Perez
Rose
Griffey
Bench

Or maybe the MVP candidate Foster bats lower in the lineup because he isn't a veteran all-star like Perez and Rose? It's impossible to screw up this lineup, I think, but batting Geronimo and Concepcion 1-2 and Bench 8 would be a valiant attempt.

cincyinco
05-31-2012, 03:52 PM
"No way" because you think it is a bad idea or because you know it will never happen?

Both? I thought it was made clear in the preceding paragraph. I think the no one getting on base in front of him issue could be resolved with a few simple tweaks. And last I checked Stubbs was doing well enough in the 2 hole and his obp there wasn't really an issue.

camisadelgolf
05-31-2012, 05:39 PM
What do y'all think of this lineup?

2B Phillips
C Hanigan
1B Votto
3B Frazier
RF Bruce
LF Heisey
SS Cozart
CF Stubbs

When it comes to Hanigan, he's so slow that he might actually be a "base clogger". I'd rather have a base clogger in the two-hole than someone who's never in a position to clog the bases though. And personally, I'm not crazy about Stubbs in the eight-hole, but at the same time, there are some benefits. First of all, he'd see less strikes, which could result in more walks. The pitcher would then be in position to bunt him over, and I love the idea of a speedy Stubbs in scoring position while the top of the lineup is due to hit.

*BaseClogger*
05-31-2012, 05:50 PM
Both? I thought it was made clear in the preceding paragraph. I think the no one getting on base in front of him issue could be resolved with a few simple tweaks. And last I checked Stubbs was doing well enough in the 2 hole and his obp there wasn't really an issue.

Or... Stubbs could just hit leadoff!

CF Stubbs
1B Votto
2B Phillips
RF Bruce
3B Frazier
LF Heisey
SS Cozart
SP
C Hannigan

Is the most optimal batting order IMO, but I realize it's completely unrealistic...

Tom Servo
05-31-2012, 06:39 PM
2B Phillps
CF Stubbs (ride his 2 hole success until it stops)
1B Votto
3B Frazier
RF Bruce
C Hanigan
LF Heisey
SS Cozart

Crumbley
05-31-2012, 07:06 PM
Last night in the 9th inning, Dusty pinch hit for Frazier (.916 OPS) instead of the next hitter, Miguel Cairo- hitting .152, OPS of.419. Something tells me that we should not be neither concerned nor excited by the possibility of Frazier being moved into the 4 spot any time soon. Oh Frazier has 5 HR's this year, Cairo has 5 hits.
Frazier has hit well but Cairo has had so many big hits in late innings, I don't see it as a slam dunk either way.

reds44
05-31-2012, 07:08 PM
I think Dusty using Votto for Frazier instead of Cairo had more to do with wanting to make sure Votto got an AB than it did anything else.

klw
05-31-2012, 07:48 PM
I think Dusty using Votto for Frazier instead of Cairo had more to do with wanting to make sure Votto got an AB than it did anything else.

I do understand the arguments in favor of using Votto earlier in the inning and can justify the decision. I was commenting more on it as a reflection on how Dusty views Frazier at the moment- ie a kid not a vet and not likely to be thrust into the primetime role of cleanup.

mdccclxix
07-03-2012, 10:54 AM
Frazier's career minor's numbers are
.280/.353/.475

His career major's numbers are
.259/.322/.511

His 2012 majors numbers are
.278/.344/.562

Is it crazy to believe he can keep this up? Is this the Real Todd Frazier? The dream from 2009...come true?

When does Frazier start to remain in the starting lineup through 2015 in the minds of Reds fans?

180 PA's this year is still small sample size...but it's not like this isn't who we've seen Todd Frazier as in the past. He's in his prime as well.

I admit, I personally wrote him off as a probable AAAA/25th man guy, but it's quite possible he was suffering from AAA rot and the large park in Louisville the last few years.

He's showing that he can really barrel the ball at the highest level, making him a legit slugger for the Reds this year.

I wish they would put him at cleanup, a yearly .825 OPS there sounds completely fine.

Benihana
07-03-2012, 10:56 AM
Frazier's career minor's numbers are
.280/.353/.475

His career major's numbers are
.259/.322/.511

His 2012 majors numbers are
.278/.344/.562

Is it crazy to believe he can keep this up? Is this the Real Todd Frazier? The dream from 2009...come true?

When does Frazier start to remain in the starting lineup through 2015 in the minds of Reds fans?

180 PA's this year is still small sample size...but it's not like this isn't who we've seen Todd Frazier as in the past. He's in his prime as well.

I admit, I personally wrote him off as a probable AAAA/25th man guy, but it's quite possible he was suffering from AAA rot and the large park in Louisville the last few years.

He's showing that he can really barrel the ball at the highest level, making him a legit slugger for the Reds this year.

I wish they would put him at cleanup, a yearly .825 OPS there sounds completely fine.

If he maintains an OPS above .800 for the rest of this season, I think you can start penciling him into lineups through 2015. Crazy to think our entire infield could be set for the next five years.

Kc61
07-03-2012, 11:40 AM
Frazier has exceeded my expectations. I see absolutely no reason why he can't play third for the Reds every day for years. Even if he tails off against RHP, which is possible, I'd give him every opportunity.

I wouldn't hit him cleanup this year. Let's take it slow. Sixth is fine for Todd right now.

edabbs44
07-03-2012, 11:49 AM
Expectations need to be tempered, he is likely not as good as he has been to this point.

dougdirt
07-03-2012, 11:55 AM
Expectations need to be tempered, he is likely not as good as he has been to this point.

16 walks. 46 strikeouts.

Those 46 strikeouts is good for a 25.5% strikeout rate. Stubbs is at 26.7% this year.

Frazier has a .339 BABIP right now. Too early to say he can't do it, but it is pretty likely that he can't maintain that. The one thing to note though is that his power is real. He has above average power. Put that in GABP and it is going to play well.

I am with edabbs on this, he isn't as good as he has been. But I still think he has enough to start for this team.

mdccclxix
07-03-2012, 12:29 PM
So, although he's not a .900 OPS bat, he's likely in the .750-.825 range, would anyone disagree about that? The league average is .737 for 3b in 2012, for reference.

reds44
07-03-2012, 12:42 PM
I don't think anybody expects him to be a .900 OPS can guy, but I think everybody here would take an .800 OPS from him in a heartbeat.

Tom Servo
07-03-2012, 02:02 PM
I wouldn't hit him cleanup this year. Let's take it slow. Sixth is fine for Todd right now.
This.

edabbs44
07-03-2012, 03:43 PM
I don't think anybody expects him to be a .900 OPS can guy, but I think everybody here would take an .800 OPS from him in a heartbeat.

Do we have any reason to believe that he will be an .800 bat?

reds44
07-03-2012, 03:46 PM
Do we have any reason to believe that he will be an .800 bat?
He was an .827 OPS bat in the minors, I don't see why .800 would be out of the question.

Bumstead
07-03-2012, 03:48 PM
Do we have any reason to believe that he will be an .800 bat?

Do we have any reason to believe that he won't be or are we just pessimistic by nature as Reds fans?

edabbs44
07-03-2012, 06:46 PM
He was an .827 OPS bat in the minors, I don't see why .800 would be out of the question.

He was sub .800 in AAA as well at an advanced age.

edabbs44
07-03-2012, 06:47 PM
Do we have any reason to believe that he won't be or are we just pessimistic by nature as Reds fans?

After watching guys like Dickerson, Dorn, Heisey, Sappelt and Bruce, for example, it is difficult to make and/or agree with statements like that.

dougdirt
07-03-2012, 07:17 PM
He was sub .800 in AAA as well at an advanced age.

Yes, but Louisville saps power and GABP boosts power. So the power could make up the difference somewhat.

reds44
07-03-2012, 08:30 PM
Yes, but Louisville saps power and GABP boosts power. So the power could make up the difference somewhat.
.781 as a 24 year old, .806 as a 25 year old.

edabbs44
07-03-2012, 09:27 PM
.781 as a 24 year old, .806 as a 25 year old.

Jay Bruce OPS in AAA: .958
Heisey in AAA: .763
Dickerson in AAA: .816
Janish in AAA: .695
Cozart in AAA: .762
Mesoraco: .846

CesarGeronimo
07-03-2012, 10:11 PM
George Foster had a sub-.800 OPS season in 496 at bats at AAA Indianapolis when he was 24 and still managed a couple of pretty fair seasons with the Reds. I'm not saying that Frazier will necessarily hit 52 homers and drive in 149 runs. I'm just not ruling it out. :D

RedlegJake
07-04-2012, 03:32 AM
George Foster had a sub-.800 OPS season in 496 at bats at AAA Indianapolis when he was 24 and still managed a couple of pretty fair seasons with the Reds. I'm not saying that Frazier will necessarily hit 52 homers and drive in 149 runs. I'm just not ruling it out. :D

He couldn't have had a season like that! It's not possible. Foster had a sub 800 OPS in AAA and that is that. Once a guy hits below .800 in AAA he'll ALWAYS fail in the majors. Just sayin'

edabbs44
07-04-2012, 06:40 AM
He couldn't have had a season like that! It's not possible. Foster had a sub 800 OPS in AAA and that is that. Once a guy hits below .800 in AAA he'll ALWAYS fail in the majors. Just sayin'

Stop. No one said that.

mth123
07-04-2012, 09:05 AM
He couldn't have had a season like that! It's not possible. Foster had a sub 800 OPS in AAA and that is that. Once a guy hits below .800 in AAA he'll ALWAYS fail in the majors. Just sayin'

I don't think this is the argument that anyone is making. Personally, I've pointed to Drew Stubbs AAA OPS mamy times as to why I'm a skeptic with the guy. Its not impossible for Stubbs to go on to be the star many he always hoped he'd become just because he didn't hit much in AAA, but it certainly colors the expectations that we should have on what we'd get out of the guy. Those expectations are the basis of evaluating the team and the needs to be filled. I'll continue to assume that guys won't become better major league players than they were in the minors. Those that do are nice developments.

CesarGeronimo
07-04-2012, 10:24 AM
I don't think this is the argument that anyone is making. Personally, I've pointed to Drew Stubbs AAA OPS mamy times as to why I'm a skeptic with the guy. Its not impossible for Stubbs to go on to be the star many he always hoped he'd become just because he didn't hit much in AAA, but it certainly colors the expectations that we should have on what we'd get out of the guy. Those expectations are the basis of evaluating the team and the needs to be filled. I'll continue to assume that guys won't become better major league players than they were in the minors. Those that do are nice developments.

I agree with you. I hope that Frazier is an exception who can manage an OPS of around .800 in the majors, despite being slightly lower than that at AAA (and higher in the lower minors). Instead of cleanup hitter, I'd actually like to see him in the two slot as in addition to hitting well so far this year, he also draws some walks and has one of the team's best OBPs:

Phillips
Frazier
Votto
Ludwick
Bruce
Cozart
Stubbs
Hanigan/Mesoraco

If you do this, you do have runners on for Votto. The question, I think, would be whether Ludwick can keep hitting like he has lately.

OldXOhio
07-04-2012, 10:26 AM
I'd actually like to see him in the two slot as in addition to hitting well so far this year, he also draws some walks and has one of the team's best OBPs:

Phillips
Frazier
Votto
Ludwick
Bruce
Cozart
Stubbs
Hanigan/Mesoraco

If you do this, you do have runners on for Votto. The question, I think, would be whether Ludwick can keep hitting like he has lately.

My thought as well re: Frazier in the 2 hole. Or even Hannigan, certainly before I'd ever hit Stubbs there again.

CesarGeronimo
07-04-2012, 10:37 AM
My thought as well re: Frazier in the 2 hole. Or even Hannigan, certainly before I'd ever hit Stubbs there again.

And if Phillips must stay in the cleanup spot, you make it:

Cozart
Frazier
Votto
Phillips
Bruce
Ludwick
Stubbs
Heisey/Mesoraco

Still better than the lineup with Stubbs in the 2 hole.

Raisor
07-04-2012, 10:42 AM
My lineup only varies for rotating Hannigan and Mes.
I have no real problem with Phillips hitting cleanup BUT if the choice is Cozart leading off or Frazier/Ludwick hitting 4th, I'll go with this:

Phillips
Hannigan/Frazier
Votto
Frazier/Ludwick
Bruce
Ludwick/Cozart
Cozart/Mes
Stubbs

RedlegJake
07-04-2012, 01:04 PM
Sorry for my cranky snarky post last night guys. I was in a bit of a mood. I don't usually make those kinds of posts, referring to the Foster and sub .800 post. Especially to edabbs who made the earlier post that I mostly made my response. to. Sorry buddy.

Vottomatic
07-07-2012, 12:42 PM
Based on his minor league career, there is no way I would have ever expected Frazier to do this well. Definitely the most pleasant surprise this team has had in awhile.

He hits the ball hard. The other night, he had a single, but because it got to the outfield so fast.....the runner on second couldn't score.

CesarGeronimo
07-07-2012, 01:09 PM
Frazier had another big game last night. But will he be in the lineup today and tomorrow as Rolen returns?

Redhook
07-08-2012, 07:54 AM
Frazier had another big game last night. But will he be in the lineup today and tomorrow as Rolen returns?

Rolen will undoubtedly start today which is so bad on so many levels.

cbowen2112
07-08-2012, 01:07 PM
Todd Frazier, benched. Just wow. Awful idea by Dusty. Sit one of the hottest hitters.

Superdude
07-08-2012, 01:54 PM
Todd Frazier, benched. Just wow. Awful idea by Dusty. Sit one of the hottest hitters.

Why do I still get the feeling Scott Rolen is the everyday third basemen when "healthy"? That is a concerning feeling.

RedEye
07-08-2012, 01:57 PM
Why do I still get the feeling Scott Rolen is the everyday third basemen when "healthy"? That is a concerning feeling.

I have a feeling Rolen is not going to be "healthy" much more this year though. Watching him play this year is painful. It's like you can see the extra exertion written across his face. Very sad.

dougdirt
07-08-2012, 03:31 PM
http://cincinnati.com/blogs/reds/2012/07/08/baker-bristles-at-frazier-question/

Lots of interesting quotes in there from Dusty about Rolen and Frazier.

Tony Cloninger
07-08-2012, 03:54 PM
http://cincinnati.com/blogs/reds/2012/07/08/baker-bristles-at-frazier-question/

Lots of interesting quotes in there from Dusty about Rolen and Frazier.

I saw your post there Doug. You really need to post and hit some of those people with a healthy dose of knowledge ....to just shut them up.

Some people actually wrote that only superstars can start every day and Frazier will eventually slump so why keep playing him....so this will prevent it from happening.

You really cannot make some of this stuff up.

757690
07-08-2012, 04:10 PM
http://cincinnati.com/blogs/reds/2012/07/08/baker-bristles-at-frazier-question/

Lots of interesting quotes in there from Dusty about Rolen and Frazier.

Most interesting one, imo:


“Eventually, the job’s going to be Frazier’s,” Baker said. “Not to say when, but Scottie’s not a spring chicken. Frazier has a good attitude about things.”

Revering4Blue
07-08-2012, 08:21 PM
Frazier is the latest extra player who’s become the People’s Choice. Fans wanted Chris Heisey over Jonny Gomes, Paul Janish over Orlando Cabrera and so on.

“Since I’ve been here there have been six or seven guys everybody fell in love with,” Baker said. “The next month you don’t hear their name. The next year or whatever. I’m just trying to win ballgames.”


:confused:

reds44
07-08-2012, 08:23 PM
http://cincinnati.com/blogs/reds/2012/07/08/baker-bristles-at-frazier-question/

Lots of interesting quotes in there from Dusty about Rolen and Frazier.
It sounds like Dusty knows what it is happening and needs to be done. I'll be surprised if Frazier isn't getting the majority of the starts from here on out.

Raisor
07-08-2012, 08:24 PM
I can only take from that that Dusty doesn't trust Frazier

edabbs44
07-08-2012, 09:00 PM
I can only take from that that Dusty doesn't trust Frazier

Or is just telling everyone to chill out, since we've seen similar situations in the past.

oregonred
07-09-2012, 12:19 AM
From the Fay blog... Kind of brings back memories of the "kooky sidewinder" quote of Papa Boone lore. Let me work...

Baker said he liked the matchup of Rolen against San Diego starter Jason Marquis.

“I’ve got to play Scottie sometime,” Baker said. “This is the best kind of guy to play him against. This guy can trick you. Yesterday, it was more of matchup thing. I was going to play Scottie yesterday. But Frazier’s been so good against left-handers.

“This guy here (Marquis) throws right up Scottie’s alley and not Frazier’s.”

Then the bristling started.

“Plus, I don’t want to be answering this every day about Scottie and Frazier,” Baker said. “I’m going to start telling you from now on ‘manager’s decision,’ like basketball. I don’t know what I’m to do, but I’ll figure it out.”

“You get tired of talking about it. It’s going to be talked about over and over for the rest of the year. Let them talk and let me work.”

powersackers
07-09-2012, 02:31 AM
Sort this by OPS; Frazier is better than Harper and Middlebrooks. That surprised me.

http://mlb.mlb.com/stats/sortable_rookie.jsp?c_id=mlb

OldXOhio
07-09-2012, 09:04 AM
It sounds like Dusty knows what it is happening and needs to be done. I'll be surprised if Frazier isn't getting the majority of the starts from here on out.

I'm sure the manager doesn't want to bad mouth Rolen to the media, but Dusty needs to remember Frazier is listening as well. Don't see a lot of reason to mention Janish when making comparisons to previous years. "So Coach, you saying I'm a flash in the pan?"

traderumor
07-09-2012, 09:23 AM
Or is just telling everyone to chill out, since we've seen similar situations in the past.No, it can't be. Doesn't make Dusty look bad. We must take his quotes and put a negative slant on them. Your way is assuming that Dusty is not an idiot.

RedsManRick
07-09-2012, 09:24 AM
I think from Dusty's perspective, the fans always think the grass is greener. In his mind, he doesn't separate the bombastic radio host from the guy at the bar yelling at the TV from the well-informed, thoughtful RedsZone poster.

He assumes, mostly correctly, that fans don't really know what they're talking about -- that they're just reacting the latest hot thing and have no concept of the bigger picture. From his point of view, there's no such thing as a well thought out, carefully considered fan opinion based on enough information to be worth listening to. It's just noise.

He knows Frazier is the long term option. But he also can't just bench Rolen. In reality, it's more complicated than that. Ultimately, we know that Dusty places a lot of value on maintaining his clubhouse. And when you consider how Dusty thinks about assessing performance, it's a pretty clear picture.

fearofpopvol1
07-09-2012, 02:15 PM
I'm not convinced Frazier can keep his current pace, but I don't think there is any question at this point that he's a better option than Rolen.

membengal
07-14-2012, 07:09 AM
Watching Todd Frazier at this point, I am flashing on another Reds 3b who came up late-ish (age 26 for Sabo) without a lot of fanfare or any expectations and helped anchor some pretty good Reds teams.

I am starting to get a Chris Sabo kinda vibe from Frazier.

cbowen2112
07-14-2012, 12:25 PM
Todd Frazier will be a bench player today, as Dusty has put Rolen in the 7 spot. Stubbs still in the 2 hole if anyone was wondering.

OnBaseMachine
07-14-2012, 12:38 PM
1-for-2 with a walk and a big HR last night to get the scoring started for the Reds results in a benching today. I don't get it, he's been the Reds second best hitter this season. He should be playing every day.

Redsfan320
07-14-2012, 12:55 PM
Refreshing to see Frazier on the bench today after the big HR last night, since so Dusty's so big on playing the hot hand. Its just disappointing at this point. Having such an incompetent manager in such a tight division race.

320

RedEye
07-14-2012, 12:58 PM
Frazier has been great. I am still skeptical about whether a .900 OPS is sustainable for him long term -- but really, how many guys can do that in all of MLB? If he can keep .850 or even .800 for the next 5 years or so, we're looking at a fourth offensive cornerstone (along with Votto, Bruce and BP).

cbowen2112
07-14-2012, 01:35 PM
But we or the media should not dare to question this call. "Don't be asking me this everyday. I gots a plan!". Already old with this situation. I never hope for injury, but in this case another back spasm might be warranted. Nothing serious, but just enough to keep Scotty on the bench for the remainder of the season. He is a better bench option then Cairo, but not by much.

OnBaseMachine
07-14-2012, 01:43 PM
It's not like Frazier is having a flukey season. His numbers are legit. His BABIP is .339, that's not outrageous, especially considering his line drive rate is at 26.9%. He's also walking in 9.4% of his plate appearances. I've always been a big Todd Frazier fan. I think he could settle in as a 20-25 HR guy.

cbowen2112
07-14-2012, 01:44 PM
It's not like Frazier is having a flukey season. His numbers are legit. His BABIP is .339, that's not outrageous, especially considering his line drive rate is at 26.9%. He's also walking in 9.4% of his plate appearances. I've always been a big Todd Frazier fan. I think he could settle in as a 20-25 HR guy.

Only if he actually gets a chance to play.

RedEye
07-14-2012, 01:59 PM
2007 draft is looking darn good right now, eh? Looks like they landed a starting C and 3B in the first round ... any draft historians know of a year they did something remotely comparable in one round?

OnBaseMachine
07-14-2012, 02:08 PM
2007 draft is looking darn good right now, eh? Looks like they landed a starting C and 3B in the first round ... any draft historians know of a year they did something remotely comparable in one round?

The Reds also drafted Zack Cozart in the second round of the that draft. So the Reds landed a potential middle-of-the-order hitting catcher, a 3B on pace to hit around 20 HR as a rookie, and a good defense SS who is on pace for 60 extra-base hits as a rookie. Not to mention Kyle Lotzkar, who is currently boasting an 11.06 K/9 as a 22-year old in AA. If he stays healthy he could be a solid big league starter.

Other notables from that draft:

Neftali Soto -struggling this year but still young, could be used as trade bait

Jeremy Horst - traded for Wilson Valdez

Brandon Waring - traded in deal for Ramon Hernandez

RedEye
07-14-2012, 02:28 PM
The Reds also drafted Zack Cozart in the second round of the that draft. So the Reds landed a potential middle-of-the-order hitting catcher, a 3B on pace to hit around 20 HR as a rookie, and a good defense SS who is on pace for 60 extra-base hits as a rookie. Not to mention Kyle Lotzkar, who is currently boasting an 11.06 K/9 as a 22-year old in AA. If he stays healthy he could be a solid big league starter.

Other notables from that draft:

Neftali Soto -struggling this year but still young, could be used as trade bait

Jeremy Horst - traded for Wilson Valdez

Brandon Waring - traded in deal for Ramon Hernandez

Wow! Forgot that Cozart was also involved. That is one prolific few hours for Buckley and his staff ... if Lotzkar and/or Soto eventually pans out, it is just more icing on quite a layer cake!

dougdirt
07-14-2012, 03:31 PM
Wow! Forgot that Cozart was also involved. That is one prolific few hours for Buckley and his staff ... if Lotzkar and/or Soto eventually pans out, it is just more icing on quite a layer cake!

The thing is, Buckley and his staff have several years like that. They are very good at their job.

2009: Mike Leake, Brad Boxberger, Billy Hamilton, Donnie Joseph in the first 3 rounds.
2008: Yonder Alonso, Zach Stewart and Dave Sappelt have all been Major Leaguers and there are still plenty of guys with a chance (Sulbaran, Bowe, Puckett, Villarreal)
2007 you covered
2006: Drew Stubbs was the best pick of the draft, but also got Chris Heisey, Chris Valaika, Jordan Smith, Justin Turner and Josh Roenicke in that draft.
2005: Jay Bruce, Travis Wood went 1-2 then Sam LeCure in the 4th. Not to mention Ondrusek, Carlos Fisher and Adam Rosales who went later in the draft.

fearofpopvol1
07-14-2012, 05:01 PM
The thing is, Buckley and his staff have several years like that. They are very good at their job.

2009: Mike Leake, Brad Boxberger, Billy Hamilton, Donnie Joseph in the first 3 rounds.
2008: Yonder Alonso, Zach Stewart and Dave Sappelt have all been Major Leaguers and there are still plenty of guys with a chance (Sulbaran, Bowe, Puckett, Villarreal)
2007 you covered
2006: Drew Stubbs was the best pick of the draft, but also got Chris Heisey, Chris Valaika, Jordan Smith, Justin Turner and Josh Roenicke in that draft.
2005: Jay Bruce, Travis Wood went 1-2 then Sam LeCure in the 4th. Not to mention Ondrusek, Carlos Fisher and Adam Rosales who went later in the draft.

You sure about that? I thought Krvisky hired him after the O'Brien regime.

Buckley has been the scouting director of the Cincinnati Reds since February 2006.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/bullpen/Chris_Buckley

dougdirt
07-14-2012, 06:16 PM
You sure about that? I thought Krvisky hired him after the O'Brien regime.

Buckley has been the scouting director of the Cincinnati Reds since February 2006.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/bullpen/Chris_Buckley

Touche. Not sure why I had thought he started in 2005.

RedEye
07-14-2012, 11:06 PM
The thing is, Buckley and his staff have several years like that. They are very good at their job.

2009: Mike Leake, Brad Boxberger, Billy Hamilton, Donnie Joseph in the first 3 rounds.
2008: Yonder Alonso, Zach Stewart and Dave Sappelt have all been Major Leaguers and there are still plenty of guys with a chance (Sulbaran, Bowe, Puckett, Villarreal)
2007 you covered
2006: Drew Stubbs was the best pick of the draft, but also got Chris Heisey, Chris Valaika, Jordan Smith, Justin Turner and Josh Roenicke in that draft.
2005: Jay Bruce, Travis Wood went 1-2 then Sam LeCure in the 4th. Not to mention Ondrusek, Carlos Fisher and Adam Rosales who went later in the draft.

Thanks! I'd still say 2007 stands out with the Mesoraco-Frazier-Cozart trio. But the Buckley crew has been doing a great job for awhile, no doubt.

Scrap Irony
07-14-2012, 11:50 PM
2009 might be better in a couple years. Lots of upside in that draft.

Tucker Barnhart, Juan Silva, Brian Pearl, Jacob Johnson-- not a bad haul at all.

redsmetz
07-16-2012, 10:27 AM
Here's a piece from Todd Frazier in the interview from Ken Rosenthal on Saturday. I posted the link in the Rolen thread.

But no one around the Reds disputes that Frazier is the future.

Frazier, 26, knows that some fans are clamoring for him to play more, but he is respectful of Rolen. In fact, Frazier said, “I love him to death,” adding, “He’s like a big brother to me.”

The talk around town?

“I try not to look into it, but I’m only human. I see it. I hear it,” Frazier said. “But he’s got seven Gold Gloves. He’s going to be in the Hall of Fame, I assume.

“He deserves a (regular) spot (in the lineup). That’s the honest truth. He’s been doing it longer than me.”

Benihana
07-16-2012, 11:25 AM
Buckley's crew has been doing a phenomenal job. Other than their first year where they only had a couple months on the job before the '06 draft, every draft has been above average.

camisadelgolf
07-16-2012, 11:51 AM
You have to love it when the draft picks are not only talented but also class acts. During the interview, Frazier was set up perfectly to talk himself into trouble and create friction in the clubhouse, but he handled it perfectly. It's only a matter of time before he gets his shot at being the lone starter at third base, and if he keeps his head on straight and continues to hit, that day will come sooner than later.

redsmetz
07-24-2012, 02:45 PM
Nice piece from SI that my son sent me on Frazier viz the ROY race.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/baseball/mlb/07/23/todd-frazier-reds-jake-bullinger/index.html

Todd again being classy talking up Harper, but his teammates and Jacoby speak for him.

RedlegJake
07-24-2012, 04:10 PM
I like the way the draft team has done so far. They've picked some high ceiling kids like Billy H. and also a lot of solid talents that should contribute at some point - not all stars maybe but everyday players and role players and relievers. I believe if a team can fill most of its needs from within and the keep a core group of expensive star talent signed to the big money it can compete for a reasonable payroll. Its when the parts players and everyday guys start earning 4-5-6 million each that the payroll really explodes. If the Reds can keep those positions filled inexpensively from the farm its a huge advantage.

Brutus
07-24-2012, 04:22 PM
Nice piece from SI that my son sent me on Frazier viz the ROY race.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/baseball/mlb/07/23/todd-frazier-reds-jake-bullinger/index.html

Todd again being classy talking up Harper, but his teammates and Jacoby speak for him.

I mean, obviously Harper will win the award whether justified or not, but if it's merit-based, Frazier has been a better player.

Player (BA-HR-RBI-SB-OBP-SLG-OPS)

Frazier (.285-10-33-1-.347-.542-.890)
Harper (.272-9-29-13-.343-.449-.791)

RedlegJake
07-24-2012, 04:28 PM
Unfortunately Harper will win it based on hoopla, his age, and popularity. Frazier should get it, however, as his numbers trump Harper in nearly every category, and his value to the Reds measured by WAR is also higher than Harper's for the Nats. (And to my mind, playing 4 positions so far this season with more than adequate defense trumps Harper's outfield play). But it's like the All Star game - its not merit it's popularity and celebrity.

_Sir_Charles_
07-24-2012, 04:45 PM
I won't say it's a slam dunk Harper wins it. If the Reds take the WS, and Frazier plays a big part, I don't think it's as clear cut as some think.

Brutus
07-24-2012, 04:47 PM
I won't say it's a slam dunk Harper wins it. If the Reds take the WS, and Frazier plays a big part, I don't think it's as clear cut as some think.

Is the Rookie of the Year voting conducted after the playoffs are complete? I can't remember the timing. Regardless, I would hope you are right, but I just can't see any way in the world Harper doesn't win it. Just too much hype. I'm not sure enough voters will actually look at the numbers closely enough.

klw
07-24-2012, 04:50 PM
Wade Miley also could have a big say in who wins ROY.

_Sir_Charles_
07-24-2012, 04:50 PM
Is the Rookie of the Year voting conducted after the playoffs are complete? I can't remember the timing. Regardless, I would hope you are right, but I just can't see any way in the world Harper doesn't win it. Just too much hype. I'm not sure enough voters will actually look at the numbers closely enough.

I'm not positive, but I seem to recall that they're all done after the series.

And I think the RoY voting is one of the few votes that they seem to look more closely. I don't recall too many wrong calls on that award. Sure, tons of them flop afterwards, but the majority have been well deserved IIRC.

Just checked...last year they awarded the RoY's on Nov. 14th. I'm kinda hoping the playoffs will be over by then. *grin*

Brutus
07-24-2012, 04:56 PM
I'm not positive, but I seem to recall that they're all done after the series.

And I think the RoY voting is one of the few votes that they seem to look more closely. I don't recall too many wrong calls on that award. Sure, tons of them flop afterwards, but the majority have been well deserved IIRC.

Just checked...last year they awarded the RoY's on Nov. 14th.

I found some clarification on this.

Turns out, the voting is done before the postseason as I somewhat suspected, according to an FAQ from the BBWAA website...


When does the voting take place?

Voters submit their ballots before the start of the postseason.

http://bbwaa.com/voting-faq/

So if Frazier is to beat out Harper, he's got two months to overwhelm voters.

redsmetz
07-24-2012, 05:01 PM
I'm not positive, but I seem to recall that they're all done after the series.

And I think the RoY voting is one of the few votes that they seem to look more closely. I don't recall too many wrong calls on that award. Sure, tons of them flop afterwards, but the majority have been well deserved IIRC.

Just checked...last year they awarded the RoY's on Nov. 14th. I'm kinda hoping the playoffs will be over by then. *grin*

The announcements are made after the Series, but the voting is all done before the playoffs start.

kaldaniels
07-24-2012, 05:13 PM
I don't think Harper is an automatic winner. Come Sept if he doesn't have the numbers the media will try to look smart in pointing that out.

RedsManRick
07-24-2012, 07:50 PM
I don't think Harper is an automatic winner. Come Sept if he doesn't have the numbers the media will try to look smart in pointing that out.

The general rule of thumb seems to be a pitcher with a nice wins/saves total or a hitter with nice triple crown stats. Miley is already 11-5 with a 3.02 ERA. If he wins 15+ games with an ERA south of 4.00, I think it's going to be hard for a hitter to take it from him. A hitter would need something like .280/20/80 to be seen as comparable. I don't think voters will be adjusting to the changed run environment for awhile when it comes to award voting.

_Sir_Charles_
07-24-2012, 09:53 PM
I found some clarification on this.

Turns out, the voting is done before the postseason as I somewhat suspected, according to an FAQ from the BBWAA website...



http://bbwaa.com/voting-faq/ (http://bbwaa.com/voting-faq/)

So if Frazier is to beat out Harper, he's got two months to overwhelm voters.

Thanks. I kinda had a feeling that something was done BEFORE...just wasn't sure what was done.