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View Full Version : Reds management taking a beating over use of roster on radio



Vottomatic
05-20-2012, 12:32 PM
Seems like every time I turn on a sportstalk show this week, Lance, Ken Broo, or others have had some national baseball guru/analyst guest ripping on the Reds for lack of OBP players, the lack of a leadoff hitter or legit cleanup hitter, and the use of Chapman.

Funny how everyone in the country including Reds fans can see all of this but management has ignored it.

cincrazy
05-20-2012, 12:36 PM
Seems like every time I turn on a sportstalk show this week, Lance, Ken Broo, or others have had some national baseball guru/analyst guest ripping on the Reds for lack of OBP players, the lack of a leadoff hitter or legit cleanup hitter, and the use of Chapman.

Funny how everyone in the country including Reds fans can see all of this but management has ignored it.

I don't think management is ignoring it. It's not exactly easy to find cleanup hitters and high OBP players up and down the lineup. I'm as frustrated as anyone else, but I'm sure Walt is more than aware of our weaknesses.

westofyou
05-20-2012, 12:38 PM
So the Reds don't recognize something that involves their day to day business and Lance and Ken are not making them privy to this?

Traitors!!

traderumor
05-20-2012, 12:38 PM
There are two parts to a problem:

1: Identifying the problem
2: What can you do about it?

Fans and gurus/analysts are long in the tooth on identifying problems, fixing the problem is not as easy as starting threads on "trade targets." Financial committments, years committments, other teams wanting something in return for their players that might help us, all of these things the pundits don't have to deal with. They just get to throw a bunch of crap out there and say "this is a problem the Reds need to fix," then jump to the conclusion that they don't see it as a problem because a change doesn't happen yesterday.

Then they do a transaction and the pundits talk about what a stupid move that was, with a 100 reasons why.

traderumor
05-20-2012, 12:43 PM
So the Reds don't recognize something that involves their day to day business and Lance and Ken are not making them privy to this?

Traitors!!You'd at least think they'd email this critical information, even if they have to do so anonymously for the good of the order.

membengal
05-20-2012, 12:47 PM
There are two parts to a problem:

1: Identifying the problem
2: What can you do about it?

Fans and gurus/analysts are long in the tooth on identifying problems, fixing the problem is not as easy as starting threads on "trade targets." Financial committments, years committments, other teams wanting something in return for their players that might help us, all of these things the pundits don't have to deal with. They just get to throw a bunch of crap out there and say "this is a problem the Reds need to fix," then jump to the conclusion that they don't see it as a problem because a change doesn't happen yesterday.

Then they do a transaction and the pundits talk about what a stupid move that was, with a 100 reasons why.

There were a LOT of sharp people on this board who identified this problem long ago, back to last year and into the off-season, and who made suggestions.

Lets not pretend there is some sort of alchemy needed.

alexad
05-20-2012, 01:01 PM
There needs to be a shake up. If you are going to keep Dusty then shake up the coaching staff. Jacoby needs to go. Or Chris Spier. This team needs a HOT HEAD as a coach. Someone to get in the players grill. We ain't hittin and thus the coach must go.

Upper management can't play good guy. Thanks for being here jacoby but its not working out.

Raisor
05-20-2012, 01:08 PM
There needs to be a shake up. If you are going to keep Dusty then shake up the coaching staff. Jacoby needs to go. Or Chris Spier. This team needs a HOT HEAD as a coach. Someone to get in the players grill. We ain't hittin and thus the coach must go.

Upper management can't play good guy. Thanks for being here jacoby but its not working out.

Why do fans always want their team to be led by a boss they'd never want to have in the real world?

westofyou
05-20-2012, 01:11 PM
Why do fans always want their team to be led by a boss they'd never want to have in the real world?

Yelling at players died with Dick Williams, the players make millions of bucks, the team is invested in them way beyond any value a screaming manager can garnish.

These are men, rich, entitled men... Friday Night Lights ain't a good fit, those days are gone.

jojo
05-20-2012, 01:14 PM
Why do fans always want their team to be led by a boss they'd never want to have in the real world?

Excellent question.

marcshoe
05-20-2012, 01:29 PM
Not a big fan of yelling as motivation.

Captain Hook
05-20-2012, 01:36 PM
Not a big fan of yelling as motivation.

As long as it's not an effort issue I'd agree.

marcshoe
05-20-2012, 01:58 PM
I don't think I've ever decided to give more effort because I was yelled at. Treat people with dignity.

mth123
05-20-2012, 02:43 PM
There are two parts to a problem:

1: Identifying the problem
2: What can you do about it?

Fans and gurus/analysts are long in the tooth on identifying problems, fixing the problem is not as easy as starting threads on "trade targets." Financial committments, years committments, other teams wanting something in return for their players that might help us, all of these things the pundits don't have to deal with. They just get to throw a bunch of crap out there and say "this is a problem the Reds need to fix," then jump to the conclusion that they don't see it as a problem because a change doesn't happen yesterday.

Then they do a transaction and the pundits talk about what a stupid move that was, with a 100 reasons why.

I think you're right to a point. They aren't going to get David Wright for spare parts, but there are a number of guys who would diversify and inprove this roster who went for next to nothing over the winter.

Seth Smith .247/.382/.393/.775 vs RHP (and I wonder how much Oakland may have cost him in the slugging dept) was dealt for a fringe 5th starter and a failed bullpen lefty who is long past propect status over the winter. Raul Ibanez .264/.331/.557/.887 had trouble finding a job and signed with the Yankees for $1.1 Million. Bobby Abreu was released by the Angels and has given the Dodgers .300/.378/.475/.853 for the minimum.

I could go on, but the fact is that the Reds chose to add Ryan Ludwick to a roster that was already overloaded with medium power, low OBP, RH Bats. This isn't a case of couldn't get 'em. It was a case of poor choosing.

Vottomatic
05-20-2012, 03:16 PM
I think you're right to a point. They aren't going to get David Wright for spare parts, but there are a number of guys who would diversify and inprove this roster who went for next to nothing over the winter.

Seth Smith .247/.382/.393/.775 vs RHP (and I wonder how much Oakland may have cost him in the slugging dept) was dealt for a fringe 5th starter and a failed bullpen lefty who is long past propect status over the winter. Raul Ibanez .264/.331/.557/.887 had trouble finding a job and signed with the Yankees for $1.1 Million. Bobby Abreu was released by the Angels and has given the Dodgers .300/.378/.475/.853 for the minimum.

I could go on, but the fact is that the Reds chose to add Ryan Ludwick to a roster that was already overloaded with medium power, low OBP, RH Bats. This isn't a case of couldn't get 'em. It was a case of poor choosing.

Ibanez with his 9th HR today to give him 27 rbi on the season, while hitting .275. Yeah, sign Ludwick to $3M and let Ibanez go to the Yanks for $1.1M. As the beer ad says, BRILLIANT!

cincrazy
05-20-2012, 03:38 PM
Ibanez with his 9th HR today to give him 27 rbi on the season, while hitting .275. Yeah, sign Ludwick to $3M and let Ibanez go to the Yanks for $1.1M. As the beer ad says, BRILLIANT!

Because we all knew Ibanez would have this kind of year? Do you really think he'd be putting up similar stats in Cincinnati surrounded by these hitters? Ibanez made no sense in Cincy. We needed a righty power hitting, not an aging 40 year old lefty.

jojo
05-20-2012, 03:43 PM
Not a big fan of yelling as motivation.

The Marines think you're a wuss. :p

mth123
05-20-2012, 03:58 PM
Because we all knew Ibanez would have this kind of year? Do you really think he'd be putting up similar stats in Cincinnati surrounded by these hitters? Ibanez made no sense in Cincy. We needed a righty power hitting, not an aging 40 year old lefty.

Nope. Unless they could get a true 30 HR, middle of the order RH power hitter, a LH bat was preferable. The Reds have 8 or 9 guys who pretty much are all the same in the medium power, low OBP, RH guys. The line-up is filled with them. They have needed a couple of lefty bats who can keep the opposing mediocre RH from throwing curve after curve that breaks away from these RH hitters who just can't hit it. Reds have been Righty heavy with lefty killers for years now (Stubbs, Rolen, Cairo, Hanigan. Phillips, Hernandez/Mesoraco, Gomes, Frazier, Janish/Cozart/Renteria, etc. etc). Once Alonso was dealt, this team, which already was the league leader in 2011 vs LHP while a middling 8th vs RHP, was desperate for a LH Bat. Dealing Francisco made it even more lopsided.

Now, Ibanez wasn't high on my list, but he was probably higher than Ludwick. Seth Smith was the guy I wanted.

cincrazy
05-20-2012, 04:23 PM
Nope. Unless they could get a true 30 HR, middle of the order RH power hitter, a LH bat was preferable. The Reds have 8 or 9 guys who pretty much are all the same in the medium power, low OBP, RH guys. The line-up is filled with them. They have needed a couple of lefty bats who can keep the opposing mediocre RH from throwing curve after curve that breaks away from these RH hitters who just can't hit it. Reds have been Righty heavy with lefty killers for years now (Stubbs, Rolen, Cairo, Hanigan. Phillips, Hernandez/Mesoraco, Gomes, Frazier, Janish/Cozart/Renteria, etc. etc). Once Alonso was dealt, this team, which already was the league leader in 2011 vs LHP while a middling 8th vs RHP, was desperate for a LH Bat. Dealing Francisco made it even more lopsided.

Now, Ibanez wasn't high on my list, but he was probably higher than Ludwick. Seth Smith was the guy I wanted.

I agree with your point, to an extent. I don't agree with Ibanez as a good target, however. If he would've been signed in the offseason 95% of this board would've been howling in protest. He's looked done for a while now.

Tony Cloninger
05-20-2012, 04:47 PM
They have a high OBP guy here to bat 2nd.... Hanigan. BP is the leadoff guy.

I wonder if these pundits brought that up and then the inertia that is Baker with he must have fast guys up high.

I think the comment of Dusty would have batted Geronimo and Concepcion.. 1st and 2nd if he managed the BRM...would have been a nice touch as well.

edabbs44
05-20-2012, 05:46 PM
Ibanez with his 9th HR today to give him 27 rbi on the season, while hitting .275. Yeah, sign Ludwick to $3M and let Ibanez go to the Yanks for $1.1M. As the beer ad says, BRILLIANT!

And to think the Angels spent all that money on Pujols.

Benihana
05-20-2012, 05:47 PM
Ibanez with his 9th HR today to give him 27 rbi on the season, while hitting .275. Yeah, sign Ludwick to $3M and let Ibanez go to the Yanks for $1.1M. As the beer ad says, BRILLIANT!

To be fair, if we're going to talk about today, Ludwick was the star of the game.

Overall though I agree with the point. Seth Smith was an obvious pickup for this team (although in a less realistic world, Carlos Beltran was my ideal offseason target- he would look really good batting cleanup and playing LF on this team, even if it meant less Brandon Phillips five years from now).

We need to address LF/cleanup spot. If we do, we should win the division. If we don't, we're probably fighting for a wild card.

mth123
05-20-2012, 06:14 PM
To be fair, if we're going to talk about today, Ludwick was the star of the game.

Overall though I agree with the point. Seth Smith was an obvious pickup for this team (although in a less realistic world, Carlos Beltran was my ideal offseason target- he would look really good batting cleanup and playing LF on this team, even if it meant less Brandon Phillips five years from now).

We need to address LF/cleanup spot. If we do, we should win the division. If we don't, we're probably fighting for a wild card.

Lefty pitcher today. The usual problem presented by all those splitty RH bats wasn't there today. A couple of the lefty killers, Hanigan in particular, came through today. Ludwick looks like he's a lefty killer at this point which is contra to his history (though he was better against LHP than RHP in 2011).

I don't think anything we saw today, as happy as I am for the win, means much has been resolved toward the problem the Reds face 130 or so times per year when a Righty is on the mound. Braves have a lefty tomorrow. Hooray.

Vottomatic
05-20-2012, 06:24 PM
They have a high OBP guy here to bat 2nd.... Hanigan. BP is the leadoff guy.

I wonder if these pundits brought that up and then the inertia that is Baker with he must have fast guys up high.

I think the comment of Dusty would have batted Geronimo and Concepcion.. 1st and 2nd if he managed the BRM...would have been a nice touch as well.

The expert Broo had on said Hanigan should be batting 2nd or cleanup.

traderumor
05-20-2012, 06:27 PM
There were a LOT of sharp people on this board who identified this problem long ago, back to last year and into the off-season, and who made suggestions.

Lets not pretend there is some sort of alchemy needed.

Identified as a potential problem. Still, it is a matter of maximizing limited resources. The premise starting this thread was that everyone knows the issue but the decision makers.

I've been around since Mark Bellhorn was a coveted prize. I'm just hoping that they find a solution, but I don't think for a minute that the Reds management is sitting there stubbornly refusing to admit what is obvious to anyone that has a cursory knowledge of the game. It always is a bit funny to see folks assume inaction is the result of ignorance.

Vottomatic
05-20-2012, 06:30 PM
Identified as a potential problem. Still, it is a matter of maximizing limited resources. The premise starting this thread was that everyone knows the issue but the decision makers.

I've been around since Mark Bellhorn was a coveted prize. I'm just hoping that they find a solution, but I don't think for a minute that the Reds management is sitting there stubbornly refusing to admit what is obvious to anyone that has a cursory knowledge of the game. It always is a bit funny to see folks assume inaction is the result of ignorance.

Okay, Rolen wasn't the answer, and the knowledgeable people knew that. This team hasn't had a legit cleanup hitter since Adam Dunn.

How long does it take?

BearcatShane
05-20-2012, 06:40 PM
I mean, they might be a half game out of first tomorrow morning. The season hasn't gone great but they're battling. Cleanup is an obvious problem but I'll see if Walt can't figure that out. They could be the Angels or Brewers ya know.

traderumor
05-20-2012, 06:46 PM
Okay, Rolen wasn't the answer, and the knowledgeable people knew that. This team hasn't had a legit cleanup hitter since Adam Dunn.

How long does it take?The funny part is that Dunn didn't hit 4th much around here.

Rolen was a legit cleanup hitter in 2010. I don't disagree that it is a need, I'm just having a problem with your premise that the Reds don't know their issues. They had to address the pitching or we're not even talking 2 over .500 right now. While they looked pitiful Friday, which was very frustrating, they went out and put up 6 and 5 runs the last two days, had a winning roadtrip against three winning teams...

Vottomatic
05-20-2012, 07:49 PM
The funny part is that Dunn didn't hit 4th much around here.

Rolen was a legit cleanup hitter in 2010. I don't disagree that it is a need, I'm just having a problem with your premise that the Reds don't know their issues. They had to address the pitching or we're not even talking 2 over .500 right now. While they looked pitiful Friday, which was very frustrating, they went out and put up 6 and 5 runs the last two days, had a winning roadtrip against three winning teams...

Addressed their pitching?

Latos hasn't been the pitcher they traded for (yet).
Madson never threw a mlb game for the Reds - injured.
Marshall has given mixed results.

The truth is.........Cueto has been Cueto 2011.
Arroyo has been Arroyo pre-2011.
Bailey has been a more consistent Bailey, but not great.
Latos hasn't been a #1 like they thought they traded for.
Leake has struggled.

Chapman has been even better than they thought he'd be.
Ondrusek got ripped to shreds on this board last year, and I thought unjustly so.
JJ Hoover is the only move that may have turned out better than they planned.
Arredondo has been solid.
Lecure has struggled.
Bray and Masset on the DL.

The pitching has not gone the way they planned it, but in some ironic way, it's still panned out positively but not the way it was planned. (if that makes sense)

I guess I just have higher expectations and goals than most fans in terms of the Reds. Right now, this looks like 2011 all over again. Hopefully they prove me wrong.

mth123
05-20-2012, 08:00 PM
Addressed their pitching?

Latos hasn't been the pitcher they traded for (yet).
Madson never threw a mlb game for the Reds - injured.
Marshall has given mixed results.

The truth is.........Cueto has been Cueto 2011.
Arroyo has been Arroyo pre-2011.
Bailey has been a more consistent Bailey, but not great.
Latos hasn't been a #1 like they thought they traded for.
Leake has struggled.

Chapman has been even better than they thought he'd be.
Ondrusek got ripped to shreds on this board last year, and I thought unjustly so.
JJ Hoover is the only move that may have turned out better than they planned.
Arredondo has been solid.
Lecure has struggled.
Bray and Masset on the DL.

The pitching has not gone the way they planned it, but in some ironic way, it's still panned out positively but not the way it was planned. (if that makes sense)

I guess I just have higher expectations and goals than most fans in terms of the Reds. Right now, this looks like 2011 all over again. Hopefully they prove me wrong.

I think this is a little much. They made the moves that needed to be made. The results have been iffy, but the moves for Latos, Marshall and Madsen were solid. They made a poor choice in the OF. Ludwick may be ok, but a lefty bat was a more obvious need. A big RH guy to hit 4th would be great, but they hoarded pretenders. Guys like that would take tons of talent and money. A lefty role player or two would have been a cheap way to improve the roster. What needs to be done is not major, but some help is needed. This team has a good chance to be pretty good. A couple strategic acquisitions (not necessarily major ones) could make them very good.

In all, I'd say the braintrust did a pretty good job. They just need to make a couple of changes and most contenders do after taking a third of the year or so to evaluate. They just need to make those tweaks and the sooner the better IMO. Wish they would have grabbed Abreu when the roster proved to be so lopsided.

Sea Ray
05-20-2012, 08:12 PM
There needs to be a shake up. If you are going to keep Dusty then shake up the coaching staff. Jacoby needs to go. Or Chris Spier. This team needs a HOT HEAD as a coach. Someone to get in the players grill. We ain't hittin and thus the coach must go.

Upper management can't play good guy. Thanks for being here jacoby but its not working out.

I think this is more a personnel problem than a coaching one. This team has been on base challenged and strikeout prone since the days of Bob Boone as manager

Tony Cloninger
05-20-2012, 08:25 PM
I think Walt could use some help in building a better bench and scavenger hunting.....
It always amazed me how good Bowden was at getting Free Players that were basically discarded or just Type C-D FA on the market and small trades....but Yes I know he sucked at developing pitching.

Darnell Coles, Dwayne Henry and Scott Bankhead in 1992....before he was the GM...he was an assistant that year and signed some good scraps.

Jerome Walton, Jeff Brantley and Hector Carrasco in 1994.
Trading the terrible Mike Anderson and Larry Luebbers to CHI for Chuck McElroy.
Jeff Shaw in 1996.
Mike Remlinger
The trades for Hammonds (Willie Greene) Vaughn, Tucker and Neagle.
Steve Parris and Ron Villone off the scrap heap
Alex Ochoa and Elmer Dessens in 2000.

The good stuff pretty much dried up after that but the lack of much of anything from Walt in even hitting on his cheap FA signings is disturbing.....and his trades up until now have been Rolen for half of 2010.
Miguel cairo and Gomes....that has been about it right?

PLEASE Do not take this post as trying to say this team would be better off with Bowden as the GM.

I just think Walt needs someone in his staff who can do a better job of evaluating the scrap heaps he tries to bring in that fit this team better. Every team has scrap heap/cheap Free Talent they sign and use or can use during the year.

redsmetz
05-20-2012, 09:46 PM
I guess I just have higher expectations and goals than most fans in terms of the Reds. Right now, this looks like 2011 all over again. Hopefully they prove me wrong.

To be honest, your frustration is that these aren't the 1869 Red Stockings and this club has lost some games. I suspect you're going to be unhappy the entire season because it's not a perfect team.

WMR
05-20-2012, 09:47 PM
So the Reds don't recognize something that involves their day to day business and Lance and Ken are not making them privy to this?

Traitors!!

Considering the Reds regularly bat their two lowest OBP bats first and second, someone needs to tell them something.

Reds/Flyers Fan
05-20-2012, 11:49 PM
I don't think management is ignoring it. It's not exactly easy to find cleanup hitters and high OBP players up and down the lineup. I'm as frustrated as anyone else, but I'm sure Walt is more than aware of our weaknesses.

If Walt is only now realizing the weaknesses of this ballclub, we're in bad shape going forward. The problems this team has haven't exactly cropped up overnight. They've had issues in left field, third base and in the leadoff and cleanup spots for the better part of two years or, in some cases, much longer (leadoff, left field).

If the Reds seriously went into this season with their fingers crossed hoping they could keep Rolen healthy with duct tape and bailing wire, then they're fools. The warning signs were as obvious as the Carew Tower to someone standing on Fountain Square. But not only were they ignored, they were blatantly and stubbornly disregarded (trading Francisco to Atl before Opening Day).

Vottomatic
05-21-2012, 06:34 AM
To be honest, your frustration is that these aren't the 1869 Red Stockings and this club has lost some games. I suspect you're going to be unhappy the entire season because it's not a perfect team.

To be honest, looks to me like if you read Sea Ray, Tony Cloninger, WMR, Reds/Flyer Fan and a bunch of other posts on this thread, you'll see alot of people complaining about the makeup of the roster/lineup.

redsmetz
05-21-2012, 07:39 AM
To be honest, looks to me like if you read Sea Ray, Tony Cloninger, WMR, Reds/Flyer Fan and a bunch of other posts on this thread, you'll see alot of people complaining about the makeup of the roster/lineup.

Oh, no question, you're not alone, but we're presently a half game out of first place after a wretched start and we've seen thread after thread calling for Dusty's head and decrying management's failure to make this club into the absolutely perfect squad. And several are after the team wins. I noted at the beginning of these season that the level of discontent with this team was going to make for a long season. Micromanaging game in and game out, while the purview of a chat board, makes for some tedious reading, all while, as I noted, we're a half game out. Go figure.

Hoosier Red
05-21-2012, 09:11 AM
I think you're right to a point. They aren't going to get David Wright for spare parts, but there are a number of guys who would diversify and inprove this roster who went for next to nothing over the winter.

Seth Smith .247/.382/.393/.775 vs RHP (and I wonder how much Oakland may have cost him in the slugging dept) was dealt for a fringe 5th starter and a failed bullpen lefty who is long past propect status over the winter. Raul Ibanez .264/.331/.557/.887 had trouble finding a job and signed with the Yankees for $1.1 Million. Bobby Abreu was released by the Angels and has given the Dodgers .300/.378/.475/.853 for the minimum.

I could go on, but the fact is that the Reds chose to add Ryan Ludwick to a roster that was already overloaded with medium power, low OBP, RH Bats. This isn't a case of couldn't get 'em. It was a case of poor choosing.

To be fair, the Reds seemed to be interested in giving Heisey a legit shot at the FT left field job. And even if they were going to platoon him, his splits in the last few years suggested that he hits righties better than lefties. I can see why the management decided that Ibanez was not the droid we were looking for.

Vottomatic
05-21-2012, 09:28 AM
Part of getting a Beltran or Ibanez is that they've been there and played for contenders, and played in the postseason.

Seems to me that was part of why management traded for Rolen a few years back - leadership on contending teams.

I realize money is always a concern with the small market Reds, but it's frustrating that other teams seem to make free agent signings that work and the Reds seem to make the ones that don't really work (most of the time). Patterson, Tavares, Ludwick, Gomes, etc. Filler. Reminds me of the early 2000's Reds.

On the flip side, I love that they've secured C, 1B, 2B, SS, RF for the long term. Obviously 3B and LF are an issue, and I'm not sold on Stubbs in CF long term.

I'm really hoping Hamilton, Lutz, and Vidal all make major strides in the next year to 2 years. Same with Cingrani and Corcino. But I fear some of them will be packaged in a trade, and if so, it better be a home run trade.

bucksfan2
05-21-2012, 09:34 AM
To be fair, the Reds seemed to be interested in giving Heisey a legit shot at the FT left field job. And even if they were going to platoon him, his splits in the last few years suggested that he hits righties better than lefties. I can see why the management decided that Ibanez was not the droid we were looking for.

Heisey is an interesting case. He has been given a chance to start during his career as a Red. The problem with him is he isn't better than Stubbs in CF and has some pretty bizarre splits. He hits righties better than lefties, a lot of his damage is done coming in as a pinch hitter, and he strikes out at an alarming rate. He really doesn't have a skill set, nor has he really proven anything when given a shot, that screams "Start me!"

Sea Ray
05-21-2012, 09:38 AM
Heisey is an interesting case. He has been given a chance to start during his career as a Red. The problem with him is he isn't better than Stubbs in CF and has some pretty bizarre splits. He hits righties better than lefties, a lot of his damage is done coming in as a pinch hitter, and he strikes out at an alarming rate. He really doesn't have a skill set, nor has he really proven anything when given a shot, that screams "Start me!"

We've seen enough of Heisey to know what he is and that is a very good 4th OFer or a poor starting OFer...

westofyou
05-21-2012, 09:42 AM
Heisey is an interesting case. He has been given a chance to start during his career as a Red. The problem with him is he isn't better than Stubbs in CF and has some pretty bizarre splits. He hits righties better than lefties, a lot of his damage is done coming in as a pinch hitter, and he strikes out at an alarming rate. He really doesn't have a skill set, nor has he really proven anything when given a shot, that screams "Start me!"

And all that is why he's spit started against FB RH pitchers and not handed a key to LF as his own

Some feel that he'd star if placed out there out right, I tend to feel he's soft too much OB wise to own the position and sticking him in situations to succeed will be a major chore that this team will have to undertake

Not having a steady starter in LF is not deal breaker, nor a prerequisite to playing winning baseball

Having all your LF perform at league average is the 1st goal, let's see the Reds get there before they declare a winner

traderumor
05-21-2012, 09:50 AM
Addressed their pitching?

Latos hasn't been the pitcher they traded for (yet).
Madson never threw a mlb game for the Reds - injured.
Marshall has given mixed results.

The truth is.........Cueto has been Cueto 2011.
Arroyo has been Arroyo pre-2011.
Bailey has been a more consistent Bailey, but not great.
Latos hasn't been a #1 like they thought they traded for.
Leake has struggled.

Chapman has been even better than they thought he'd be.
Ondrusek got ripped to shreds on this board last year, and I thought unjustly so.
JJ Hoover is the only move that may have turned out better than they planned.
Arredondo has been solid.
Lecure has struggled.
Bray and Masset on the DL.

The pitching has not gone the way they planned it, but in some ironic way, it's still panned out positively but not the way it was planned. (if that makes sense)

I guess I just have higher expectations and goals than most fans in terms of the Reds. Right now, this looks like 2011 all over again. Hopefully they prove me wrong.Have you had a chance to reconsider how ridiculous this sounds yet? What is funny, the moves you are saying haven't panned out are the same one that the talking heads were saying tipped the scales for the Reds in having the most productive offseason. Funny how now they're clueless.

Also, finding people that agree with you as affirmation of your own opinion is not exactly confirmation of holding a valid opinion.

Benihana
05-21-2012, 10:37 AM
Lefty pitcher today. The usual problem presented by all those splitty RH bats wasn't there today. A couple of the lefty killers, Hanigan in particular, came through today. Ludwick looks like he's a lefty killer at this point which is contra to his history (though he was better against LHP than RHP in 2011).

I don't think anything we saw today, as happy as I am for the win, means much has been resolved toward the problem the Reds face 130 or so times per year when a Righty is on the mound. Braves have a lefty tomorrow. Hooray.

Uh, of course. I was being tongue-in-cheek when talking about "today" hence the italics.

As I said in my post, the Reds must address the LF/cleanup spot if they want to lock up the division crown. Otherwise it is likely they'll be fighting for a wildcard spot. Ludwick/Heisey in LF (with Phillips batting cleanup) is not the answer.

Benihana
05-21-2012, 10:38 AM
We've seen enough of Heisey to know what he is and that is a very good 4th OFer or a poor starting OFer...

This. At least a poor starting LF.

Sea Ray
05-21-2012, 10:58 AM
Have you had a chance to reconsider how ridiculous this sounds yet? What is funny, the moves you are saying haven't panned out are the same one that the talking heads were saying tipped the scales for the Reds in having the most productive offseason. Funny how now they're clueless.

Also, finding people that agree with you as affirmation of your own opinion is not exactly confirmation of holding a valid opinion.

What do you question as possibly invalid? Let's face it, after 40 games last yr we were 23-17 and 1.5 games in 1st place. I think it's quite valid to say that things have not improved

REDREAD
05-21-2012, 11:03 AM
Why do fans always want their team to be led by a boss they'd never want to have in the real world?

I agree completely. I think it's insulting to the players to suggest they aren't motivated. They clearly are. Having someone yell at them is not going to help matters.

REDREAD
05-21-2012, 11:05 AM
Ibanez with his 9th HR today to give him 27 rbi on the season, while hitting .275. Yeah, sign Ludwick to $3M and let Ibanez go to the Yanks for $1.1M. As the beer ad says, BRILLIANT!

I can't recall anyone on this board suggesting that we go after Ibanez over the past season.

Ludwick pretty much carried the offense in yesterday's win vs the Yankees. He may not be dead yet.

REDREAD
05-21-2012, 11:24 AM
Addressed their pitching?


[snip]

I guess I just have higher expectations and goals than most fans in terms of the Reds. Right now, this looks like 2011 all over again. Hopefully they prove me wrong.

How about waiting until after the season is over before passing judgement?
The pitching is dramatically improved from last year (so far). Maybe it won't maintain it over the entire season, but Walt certainly made reasonable attempts and saw results.

Most of the "experts" here and on talk radio would've dumped Arroyo for nothing if given the opportunity. Honestly, if this board ran the Reds, the rotation right now would probably be Ceuto, Zack Stewart, Homer, Travis Wood, and Chapman. I kind of doubt that would put us higher in the standings.

pedro
05-21-2012, 11:45 AM
My opinion is that this thread is redundant with the lineup construction thread and both threads are good examples of the type of whiney, know it all blather that have made this board increasingly uninteresting. Now I'm perfectly aware that whining about the whiners isn't very productive or interesting either but yet here we are.

marcshoe
05-21-2012, 12:12 PM
Dusty is at times infuriating because he seems to do things that make it harder to win. I pull my hair out at times, and I'm getting to an age where I can't afford to do that.

Yet I remember Boone and Narron, and Dusty is fine, thank you.

The nature of being a fan means overreacting to every small event. It's fun sometimes to follow a game thread and watch how the attitudes (mine included) change from batter to batter, inning to inning.

It's all just part of the big picture. The Reds are a half game out and haven't played their best ball of the season yet. I'm happy.

Vottomatic
05-21-2012, 12:18 PM
What do you question as possibly invalid? Let's face it, after 40 games last yr we were 23-17 and 1.5 games in 1st place. I think it's quite valid to say that things have not improved

Shhhh. Reds fans are not allowed to question the players, management or the manager.

All is perfect in Redsland.

Cleanup hitter? Phillips is perfect.

Leadoff hitter? Stubbs and Cozart are perfect.

Left Fielder? Ludwick batting his weight is perfect.

All is perfect in Redsland. No more complaining please.

(I'm kidding of course)

marcshoe
05-21-2012, 12:29 PM
So, all Ludwick needs to do is gain weight. A lot of weight.
:eek:

traderumor
05-21-2012, 12:32 PM
What do you question as possibly invalid? Let's face it, after 40 games last yr we were 23-17 and 1.5 games in 1st place. I think it's quite valid to say that things have not improvedIrony. 40 games was not sufficient to expose the weak rotation last year and apparently "all was well" but after 40 games this season, one can make conclusions that the team is not improved. Is that your analysis, compare where we were after 40 games last year with this year?

11larkin11
05-21-2012, 12:47 PM
How about waiting until after the season is over before passing judgement?
The pitching is dramatically improved from last year (so far). Maybe it won't maintain it over the entire season, but Walt certainly made reasonable attempts and saw results.

Most of the "experts" here and on talk radio would've dumped Arroyo for nothing if given the opportunity. Honestly, if this board ran the Reds, the rotation right now would probably be Cueto, Zack Stewart, Homer, Travis Wood, and Chapman. I kind of doubt that would put us higher in the standings.

Actually Cueto and Votto would be in Seattle and our ace would be Erik Bedard, possibly with Joe Blanton tossed in there as well.

traderumor
05-21-2012, 12:50 PM
Shhhh. Reds fans are not allowed to question the players, management or the manager.

All is perfect in Redsland.

Cleanup hitter? Phillips is perfect.

Leadoff hitter? Stubbs and Cozart are perfect.

Left Fielder? Ludwick batting his weight is perfect.

All is perfect in Redsland. No more complaining please.

(I'm kidding of course)I wouldn't call what you're doing complaining, I would call it more making unfounded assumptions about the front office's awareness of roster and performance issues and the decision making process to carry out needed changes. Your premise is that the problem starts out at management's being unaware of these issues. I would lean toward if a sportscaster or fan is aware, the probability is pretty high that management is aware. While the sportscaster or fan can go out on the internet and adjust their fantasy league roster in five minutes, Reds management has a few more hurdles than that.

CySeymour
05-21-2012, 12:59 PM
I'm quite confident that Walt understands the team needs an actual leadoff hitter and cleanup hitter. I am also confident his problem is finding such players that he can actually afford to get.

bucksfan2
05-21-2012, 01:03 PM
I wouldn't call what you're doing complaining, I would call it more making unfounded assumptions about the front office's awareness of roster and performance issues and the decision making process to carry out needed changes. Your premise is that the problem starts out at management's being unaware of these issues. I would lean toward if a sportscaster or fan is aware, the probability is pretty high that management is aware. While the sportscaster or fan can go out on the internet and adjust their fantasy league roster in five minutes, Reds management has a few more hurdles than that.

I always get a kick out of "we should have signed player X instead of player Y." Its easy to say it from a fans perspective but it becomes a little more difficult when you are actually trying to make the deals.

I would have liked DeJesus but who knows if he really wanted to come and play in Cincinnati. We also know that Walt had a relationship with Ludwick from his times in St. Louis, you also have to consider that some players as well as agents also have relationships with other GM's. I also thought Carlos Beltran would have been a great get for the Reds. He has stated out the season as hot as a fire cracker, but he got a 2 year deal and it isn't even Memorial Day and his knees are barking. It may be a rocky next year plus for the Cards and Beltran.

In the off season the Reds spent their bullets getting a young potential Ace, a closer, and one of the best setup men in the league. The only true player debate this season has been the use of the 25th man on the roster when Harris was up here instead of Frazier. Its no secret that the Reds need another OBP guy but heading into ST with their budget pretty much reached where were they going to look? And to be honest their 2nd best OBP guy people are complaining how much playing time he is getting over Mesoraco.

I do think the Reds need another player who can play on a regular basis and can find first base. That man could be Youk, it would make sense, but is it going to happen? I think the key with that is the status of Rolen. I think if it were a fair deal on both sides Boston would send Youk to Cincinnati. It may be one of those things where Boston gives him the benefit of the doubt and allows him to seek a trade where he wants to go.

HokieRed
05-21-2012, 01:57 PM
I'm quite confident that Walt understands the team needs an actual leadoff hitter and cleanup hitter. I am also confident his problem is finding such players that he can actually afford to get.

Not sure this is really true. On one level, obviously Walt "understands" this, but the number of tradeable parts given up in one trade--for Latos--might suggest he doesn't understand these things to be as critical as RZ seems to think.

REDREAD
05-21-2012, 02:12 PM
Actually Cueto and Votto would be in Seattle and our ace would be Erik Bedard, possibly with Joe Blanton tossed in there as well.

Yea, that's true .. lol.. I only gave Redszone control of the roster for the last 2 years or so... So Leake and Arroyo would've been out. Stewart and Wood were the "keepers".
If you give RZ control of the roster over the last 10 years or so, it would be a huge mess.

I'm willing to admit that the offense might be a disaster, BUT I think it's too early to tell. I think Cozart's hot start may have set our expectations too high.
Was glad to see him moved down in the order. We see flashes of production from Stubbs, Ludwick, Phillips, Mez, Heisey, and Frasier.. There's hope.. Maybe the team will ultimately fail, but there's hope.

I actually disagree with moving Hannigan to the #2 slot. I want to keep Stubbs there. Stubbs is OBP challenged, but his speed/power combination is nice to have at the top of the line up. Would love to see him "come through" more often, of course. Hannigan has below average power and speed. So, while Hannigan may get on base more often, his chance of scoring a run is less than Stubbs when Stubbs is on base. Both players are compromises in the #2 slot.

Sea Ray
05-21-2012, 02:15 PM
Irony. 40 games was not sufficient to expose the weak rotation last year and apparently "all was well" but after 40 games this season, one can make conclusions that the team is not improved. Is that your analysis, compare where we were after 40 games last year with this year?

Who said it was a conclusion? It was merely one man's opinion and I think it's not an outrageous one. Do you?

pedro
05-21-2012, 02:29 PM
Shhhh. Reds fans are not allowed to question the players, management or the manager.

All is perfect in Redsland.

Cleanup hitter? Phillips is perfect.

Leadoff hitter? Stubbs and Cozart are perfect.

Left Fielder? Ludwick batting his weight is perfect.

All is perfect in Redsland. No more complaining please.

(I'm kidding of course)

Complain all you want. In fact, start multiple threads about the same subject so you can complain about about it in multiple places. Then start a thread to talk about how people are talking about your complaints. Be my guest. Or you could just start a thread called "Vottomotic's running diatribe as to why the Reds management is a bunch of big stupid heads and I am smart" and just confine to to there. I honestly don't care, but the running conceit that you somehow understand what the Reds problems are and that they don't have a clue is comical. I'm pretty sure they know they have problems, it's evident, but just because they know they have problems doesn't mean that it's all that easy to fix it.

meanwhile, the team on the field is a half game out of first.

traderumor
05-21-2012, 03:12 PM
Who said it was a conclusion? It was merely one man's opinion and I think it's not an outrageous one. Do you?Answering a question with questions.

Sea Ray
05-21-2012, 03:34 PM
Answering a question with questions.

Is that your analysis, compare where we were after 40 games last year with this year?

For the record, I haven't done a full analysis, but I do think we have to allow for the possibility that this team is not better than 2011's. Rather than label it as invalid, it'd be more productive to say why you feel that way.

CySeymour
05-21-2012, 03:43 PM
Not sure this is really true. On one level, obviously Walt "understands" this, but the number of tradeable parts given up in one trade--for Latos--might suggest he doesn't understand these things to be as critical as RZ seems to think.

I am only saying this is how it is with the assets they currently have, not what they use to have.

traderumor
05-21-2012, 03:48 PM
For the record, I haven't done a full analysis, but I do think we have to allow for the possibility that this team is not better than 2011's. Rather than label it as invalid, it'd be more productive to say why you feel that way.That's pretty well documented throughout the forum.

Sea Ray
05-21-2012, 03:55 PM
That's pretty well documented throughout the forum.

I have no idea what you're referring to but I'll take you at your word.

My own observation is that the main difference between 2012 and 2011 in the NL Central is the weakness of the division. I don't see much difference in the Reds as a team

traderumor
05-21-2012, 04:29 PM
I have no idea what you're referring to but I'll take you at your word.

My own observation is that the main difference between 2012 and 2011 in the NL Central is the weakness of the division. I don't see much difference in the Reds as a teamYou asked for me to say why I feel that way. Not only did I make it pretty clear in this thread, but why I think the Reds improved is peppered throughout the forum. It isn't like I'm throwing out "you are wrong" with no supporting arguments around these parts.

Sea Ray
05-21-2012, 05:03 PM
You asked for me to say why I feel that way. Not only did I make it pretty clear in this thread, but why I think the Reds improved is peppered throughout the forum. It isn't like I'm throwing out "you are wrong" with no supporting arguments around these parts.

I hope you're right. I think the only way this team will be much better than last year is if they add a player or two and I've mentioned that in these forums as well. Their Pythag was 83 wins last yr. Although the weak division may allow a lesser record, they don't deserve a post season bid unless they get to 90 wins and I don't see a 90 win team out there.

Vottomatic
05-21-2012, 05:32 PM
I have no idea what you're referring to but I'll take you at your word.

My own observation is that the main difference between 2012 and 2011 in the NL Central is the weakness of the division. I don't see much difference in the Reds as a team

Bingo.

People get excited about catching the disabled list Cardinals.

Might be more important to look at the viable national league contenders outside the Central. The Central is the weakest division by far.

kaldaniels
05-21-2012, 05:50 PM
I hope you're right. I think the only way this team will be much better than last year is if they add a player or two and I've mentioned that in these forums as well. Their Pythag was 83 wins last yr. Although the weak division may allow a lesser record, they don't deserve a post season bid unless they get to 90 wins and I don't see a 90 win team out there.

Everything regarding improving the team aside I don't know how you can come to that conclusion. Saying only teams with a .555 winning percentage deserve to make the playoffs seems kinda arbitrary.

Sea Ray
05-21-2012, 06:47 PM
Everything regarding improving the team aside I don't know how you can come to that conclusion. Saying only teams with a .555 winning percentage deserve to make the playoffs seems kinda arbitrary.

It is arbitrary. We can't expect to make the playoffs with less than 90 wins although we might get lucky

Sea Ray
05-21-2012, 06:48 PM
Our BA w/ RISP is horrible, .201 and 29th in the major leagues. Is this something that we can expect to get better through the law of averages like BAbib or do we just have a bunch of non clutch players?

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/stats/byteam?cat=Situational&cut_type=39&conference=MLB&year=season_2012&sort=722

Quatitos
05-21-2012, 07:00 PM
Our BA w/ RISP is horrible, .201 and 29th in the major leagues. Is this something that we can expect to get better through the law of averages like BAbib or do we just have a bunch of non clutch players?

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/stats/byteam?cat=Situational&cut_type=39&conference=MLB&year=season_2012&sort=722

http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=all&stats=bat&lg=all&qual=0&type=1&season=2012&month=29&season1=2012&ind=0&team=0,ts&rost=0&age=0&players=0&sort=11,d

With the Reds having the fourth worst BABIP with RISP I would say bad luck is playing at least some part in it.

kaldaniels
05-21-2012, 07:05 PM
It is arbitrary. We can't expect to make the playoffs with less than 90 wins although we might get lucky

"Expect" and "deserve" have completely different meanings. I took exception with the latter. Don't know why you just switched them up.

traderumor
05-22-2012, 09:36 AM
Bingo.

People get excited about catching the disabled list Cardinals.

Might be more important to look at the viable national league contenders outside the Central. The Central is the weakest division by far.

Some dare to look forward at what the Reds most likely are going to be rather than looking back and declaring "same old Reds" because they have had a modest start.

People get excited about catching the Cardinals, because, well, they're in first place and we're not. The set up is either win your division or win the wild card, so it would seem to make sense that folks are looking at being in first place in the division. As for your arrogance, do you really think folks that are watching the division race have no gauge on the Reds ranking in the league? I see comments on that regularly, from all manner of folk who are apparently just as smart as you are.

CySeymour
05-22-2012, 09:47 AM
Bingo.

People get excited about catching the disabled list Cardinals.

Might be more important to look at the viable national league contenders outside the Central. The Central is the weakest division by far.

Yet people would be exploding if the Reds weren't making up ground on the weakened Cardinals. So what's the problem?

Sea Ray
05-22-2012, 09:55 AM
"Expect" and "deserve" have completely different meanings. I took exception with the latter. Don't know why you just switched them up.

I don't feel strongly enough to defend "deserve" so fine, "expect" it is. But it still is kind of arbitrary. That aspect doesn't change

Tony Cloninger
05-22-2012, 09:55 AM
I would not even count the Cardinals out even with injuries anyways......as they always seem to get someone to take their place. Now they are getting a career like hitting from Furcal......we will see how long Beltran lasts though. He looks ready to go down at any moment.

Sea Ray
05-22-2012, 09:58 AM
Yet people would be exploding if the Reds weren't making up ground on the weakened Cardinals. So what's the problem?

I think it's too early to start scoreboard watching. I'm not concerned with the Cardinals record at this point. So the problem is the Reds' sluggish record. For me personally there's also this feeling while watching any game of "will we score tonight?"

westofyou
05-22-2012, 09:59 AM
Yet people would be exploding if the Reds weren't making up ground on the weakened Cardinals. So what's the problem?

The problem is they aren't the 76 Reds

But OTOH they aren't the 82 Reds, which really ain't a problem.

But a blessing

Sea Ray
05-22-2012, 10:17 AM
The problem is they aren't the 76 Reds

But OTOH they aren't the 82 Reds, which really ain't a problem.

But a blessing

The 1990 Reds weren't the '76 Reds and I don't hear anyone complaining. 1976 is before a lot of folks around here even knew what a baseball was. When the Reds of 1974 were falling short of the playoffs I wasn't saying "why can't they be more like the 1940 Reds?"

I don't think you've identified the problem.