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RedsManRick
05-28-2012, 01:51 PM
As of this morning, Joey Votto led all of baseball in extra base hits. The guy should be an RBI machine, particularly in terms of getting guys around from first base. One problem, the Reds can't (or won't) put any OBP guys ahead of him.

Joey Votto is 75th in terms of runners on base for him. The average team has 2.5 guys who have more RBI chances than Joey Votto. What a waste. I realize some of that is just a function of the roster. But Dusty hasn't made any effort to make the best of the little OBP he does have. Sad.

At this rate, Votto could have a 9 WAR season with 90 extra base hits and he won't drive in 100 runs.

Plus Plus
05-28-2012, 01:58 PM
I couldn't agree more. This team needs some sort of OBP in front of Votto, and badly. Sadly, there aren't a lot of extant options on the roster. Hanigan would be a great option, but Baker is reluctant to bat any catcher that high in the order. The only other two guys with OBP's even higher than .310 are Heisey and Phillips, who would make a very nice 1-2, but that situation is made harder because of Baker's reluctance to bat Bruce and Votto back to back.

Without a roster addition, either in the form of a RHB to put between Votto and Bruce (Baker's idea, not mine) or a player with a higher OBP being brought up, I think that Votto will be suffering from this for the whole season- or at the very least until the trade deadline in July.

The Operator
05-28-2012, 02:15 PM
Hanigan would be perfect, but as Plus Plus noted - catchers don't bat high in the order for Dusty. Of all the great qualities Dusty has as a manager, his "this player bats here" tendencies drive me up a wall.

Brutus
05-28-2012, 02:24 PM
Hanigan would be perfect, but as Plus Plus noted - catchers don't bat high in the order for Dusty. Of all the great qualities Dusty has as a manager, his "this player bats here" tendencies drive me up a wall.

I don't know if I'd call it perfect though. He does get on base at a high clip, but being on base is only half of the equation -- being able to advance bases is the other.

Having runners on during homers certainly makes a difference because they're guaranteed of scoring. However, Hanigan is such a slow baserunner, his ability to take extra bases (first to third on a single, first to home on a double, second to home on a single, third to home on a sac fly, etc.) might mitigate some of his being on the base paths to begin with.

I'd rather have someone on base and deal with that aspect as a secondary factor, but I'm not sure it would mean as many RBIs for Votto because of his running.

Big Klu
05-28-2012, 02:42 PM
Hanigan would be perfect, but as Plus Plus noted - catchers don't bat high in the order for Dusty. Of all the great qualities Dusty has as a manager, his "this player bats here" tendencies drive me up a wall.

Catchers don't bat high in the order for anyone else, either.

dougdirt
05-28-2012, 02:44 PM
Catchers don't bat high in the order for anyone else, either.

John Jaso had 200 PA's as the leadoff hitter for Tampa Bay in 2010.

Big Klu
05-28-2012, 02:48 PM
John Jaso had 200 PA's as the leadoff hitter for Tampa Bay in 2010.

OK, that's one. And Mauer usually hits third for the Twins. But catchers hitting at the top of the order is (and always has been) a rare occurance in Major League Baseball. And it's not because of Dusty Baker.

dougdirt
05-28-2012, 02:50 PM
OK, that's one. And Mauer usually hits third for the Twins. But catchers hitting at the top of the order is (and always has been) a rare occurance in Major League Baseball. And it's not because of Dusty Baker.

No, but it is because of the thought process that has been in baseball forever, that was taught to Dusty.

Joseph
05-28-2012, 03:01 PM
No, but it is because of the thought process that has been in baseball forever, that was taught to Dusty.

As long as we all agree its not Dusty's fault.

Vottomatic
05-28-2012, 03:03 PM
OK, that's one. And Mauer usually hits third for the Twins. But catchers hitting at the top of the order is (and always has been) a rare occurance in Major League Baseball. And it's not because of Dusty Baker.

Simply because catchers have been right behind pitchers in terms of hitting prowess. They are usually mediocre to bad hitters that are slow of foot. Not the kind of hitter you want at the top of the order.

But there are exceptions, and Hanigan is one of them.

757690
05-28-2012, 03:03 PM
I don't want Hanigan batting second. First, he only plays 60% of the games, so it wouldn't be that effective. Second, he's a perfect #8 hitter, who strives on the fact that pitchers pitch around him because the pitcher is up next. Put him in front of Votto, and his walks will drop significantly, and he really doesn't have the bat to take advantage of being aggressively pitched to. Bat him second, and I think his production would plummet.

Big Klu
05-28-2012, 03:05 PM
No, but it is because of the thought process that has been in baseball forever, that was taught to Dusty.

I agree with you on that. Maybe I misinterpreted the previous post, but I read it that Dusty was doing something archaic that nobody else would do. I was pointing out that it is a prevailing idea in baseball, and he isn't doing anything out of the ordinary.

Vottomatic
05-28-2012, 03:14 PM
As of this morning, Joey Votto led all of baseball in extra base hits. The guy should be an RBI machine, particularly in terms of getting guys around from first base. One problem, the Reds can't (or won't) put any OBP guys ahead of him.

Joey Votto is 75th in terms of runners on base for him. The average team has 2.5 guys who have more RBI chances than Joey Votto. What a waste. I realize some of that is just a function of the roster. But Dusty hasn't made any effort to make the best of the little OBP he does have. Sad.

At this rate, Votto could have a 9 WAR season with 90 extra base hits and he won't drive in 100 runs.

The lineup construction has baffled me since Dusty arrived as manager. Those high OBP guys just clog the bases.......remember.

Living and dying by the home run is a disease with this team, and maybe the organization.

_Sir_Charles_
05-28-2012, 03:18 PM
Hanigan, Hanigan, Hanny, Manigan, Hanigan, Hanigan, Manigan, Hanigan, Hanny, Hanigan, Hanigan, Hanigan, Hanny, Manigan, Hanigan, Hanigan, Manigan, Hanigan, Hanny, Hanigan, Hanigan, Hanigan, Hanny, Manigan, Hanigan, Hanigan, Manigan, Hanigan, Hanny, Hanigan, Hanigan, Hanigan, Hanny, Manigan, Hanigan, Hanigan, Manigan, Hanigan, Hanny, Hanigan, Hanigan, Hanigan, Hanny, Manigan, Hanigan, Hanigan, Manigan, Hanigan, Hanny, Hanigan, Hanigan, Hanigan, Hanny, Manigan, Hanigan, Hanigan, Manigan, Hanigan, Hanny, Hanigan, Hanigan, Hanigan, Hanny, Manigan, Hanigan, Hanigan, Manigan, Hanigan, Hanny, Hanigan, Hanigan, Hanigan, Hanny, Manigan, Hanigan, Hanigan, Manigan, Hanigan, Hanny, Hanigan, Hanigan, Hanigan, Hanny, Manigan, Hanigan, Hanigan, Manigan, Hanigan, Hanny, Hanigan, Hanigan....oh, by the way...did I mention that I'd like Hanigan near the top of the lineup? *sigh*

The footspeed problem...not a concern. If he's on base, he's ON BASE at least. As for the walks declining, sure I'd expect them to some. But he's got a great eye, makes excellent contact and doesn't chase or hit into DP's. He's perfect for the 2 hole. Excellent hit and run guy too.

Phillips
Hanigan
Votto
Bruce
mix and match from here on down.

It'll never happen though. Sadly.

OnBaseMachine
05-28-2012, 03:24 PM
What, you mean you don't like Wilson Valdez batting second?!?!? Dusty Baker is hilarious.

Hanigan needs to bat #1/2. Who cares if he's a catcher, he gets on base and that's all that matters.

mth123
05-28-2012, 03:27 PM
I am the last guy to defend Dusty, but IMO the construction of the roster with so many Low OBP, medium power RH Bats is the culprit here. There may be some differences speed and defense wise, but essentially, at the plate, Rolen, Frazier and Cairo are basically the same guy. Heisey, Ludwick and Stubbs as well. They are probably stuck with low OBP guys like Phillips and Cozart up the middle, but these obvious job shares cry out for some diversification.

IMO, the team has focused solely on finding a RH bat to hit between Votto and Bruce, but since they really didn't have the resources to properly address it, they loaded up on these low OBP power hopefuls and are left with a blind spot on the roster.

The Operator
05-28-2012, 03:33 PM
Catchers don't bat high in the order for anyone else, either.That doesn't necessarily mean it's a good idea, though.

And Dusty definitely does have a very strong "this player bats here" tendency, there's no denying that. I'll be the first to admit he's got many great qualities as a manager, but he has his faults, too.

Blitz Dorsey
05-28-2012, 03:35 PM
That doesn't necessarily mean it's a good idea, though.

And Dusty definitely does have a very strong "this player bats here" tendency, there's no denying that. I'll be the first to admit he's got many great qualities as a manager, but he has his faults, too.

There is no better example than batting Paul Janish in the 2-hole. That should never happen. Dusty did it often. (Shortstops bat first or second, darnit!)

Blitz Dorsey
05-28-2012, 03:48 PM
Jeff Brantley was just saying that he thinks Ryan Hanigan should bat second to get a good OBP guy in front of Votto. RedsZone and The Cowboy -- great minds think alike.

The Operator
05-28-2012, 03:51 PM
Jeff Brantley was just saying that he thinks Ryan Hanigan should bat second to get a good OBP guy in front of Votto. RedsZone and The Cowboy -- great minds think alike.The Cowboy agrees? Now I'm not so sure about it. :D

Vottomatic
05-28-2012, 03:56 PM
MLB rbi leaders:

1. Hamilton (Tex) - yesterday's lineup 1. Kinsler (.360 OBP) 2. Andrus (.385 OBP)
2. Beltran (Stl) - today's lineup - 1. Furcal (.395 OBP) 2. Schumacher (.372 OBP) 3. Holliday (.346)
3. Ethier (LAD) - yesterday's lineup 1. Gwynn, Jr. (.333 OBP) 2. Herrera (,419) 3. Hairston (.418 OBP)
4. Cabrera (DET) -

Alright, my computer is running really slow and the other tab just locked up. But you get my drift. I'm willing to bet Cozart, Stubbs, Valdez have sub-par OBP's.

Tony Cloninger
05-28-2012, 04:49 PM
MLB rbi leaders:

1. Hamilton (Tex) - yesterday's lineup 1. Kinsler (.360 OBP) 2. Andrus (.385 OBP)
2. Beltran (Stl) - today's lineup - 1. Furcal (.395 OBP) 2. Schumacher (.372 OBP) 3. Holliday (.346)
3. Ethier (LAD) - yesterday's lineup 1. Gwynn, Jr. (.333 OBP) 2. Herrera (,419) 3. Hairston (.418 OBP)
4. Cabrera (DET) -

Alright, my computer is running really slow and the other tab just locked up. But you get my drift. I'm willing to bet Cozart, Stubbs, Valdez have sub-par OBP's.



What's funny is that I think most of those guys are either SS or 2nd baseman...... so the fact that they are batting high in the order may not be just beacuse they have high OBP....but beacuse those seem to be the positions they just happen to play while maintaining high OBP.

RedsManRick
05-28-2012, 05:18 PM
OK, that's one. And Mauer usually hits third for the Twins. But catchers hitting at the top of the order is (and always has been) a rare occurance in Major League Baseball. And it's not because of Dusty Baker.

How many catchers get on base like Ryan Hanigan?

Here are MLB catchers with at least 750 PA between 2009 and today with an OBP greater than .350



OBP
1. Mauer .409
2. Ruiz .381
3. Hanigan .372
4. Martinez .372
5. Santana .362
6. Avila .356
7. McCann .356
8. Napoli .355
9. Posey .355
10. Thole .351
11. Y Molina .351

This is precisely the problem. Hanigan is an odd duck. Dusty knows how to do things based on a tradition. He does't seem to know/care/appreciate the logic behind why those things were done that way or show a willingness to use independent logic.

Bottom line is that Dusty appears to think speed is a more important attribute in a guy at the top of the order than OBP. He manages using archetypes, regardless of how well his players actually fit them.

RedlegJake
05-28-2012, 05:45 PM
The Reds have Votto, Bruce and Votto. All locked up for a few years. Yes there is the cleanup concern but a much bigger concern to me anyway is looking around baseball and trying to bring in a few Hanigan like players. Cheap, high OBP good contact low power guys who do nothing but get on base. DeJesus, Robertson, Eaton, Melky, etc.

Whether its bench guys like Robertson who would play against lefties as pointed out to me in a post yesterday, or a major league talent like DeJesus or Melky Cabrera (much better solution) who would start everyday the Reds need a couple guys in front of Votto and the rest of their lineup.

I really think if they can get some on base percentage in the top two slots the cleanup problem would be much less magnified. With guys on base it becomes much harder to pitch around Joey and by extension BP, Jay and it pushes Cozie and Stubbs into lower slots where their power and numbers play perfectly.

Batting Hanigan in the two slot could take care of one spot when he plays but that's a part time solution and still leaves the leadoff hole open.

DeJesus or Melky Cabrera would look sooooo good batting leadoff. Hanigan in 2 spot when he plays and presto - you have 2 OBP machines in front of Joey/BP/Bruce/Cozart/Stubbs.

Cozart could then flip back to the 2 spot when Mesaraco starts without hurting the OBP design too much. Leave Frazier at third full time and see if he can lay claim to the job and improve defensively with regular play.

edabbs44
05-28-2012, 05:47 PM
Reds #2 hitters have a cumulative .348 OBP this year. Not too shabby. Maybe the right move is to put players there who need OBP help.

traderumor
05-28-2012, 05:47 PM
I don't want Hanigan batting second. First, he only plays 60% of the games, so it wouldn't be that effective. Second, he's a perfect #8 hitter, who strives on the fact that pitchers pitch around him because the pitcher is up next. Put him in front of Votto, and his walks will drop significantly, and he really doesn't have the bat to take advantage of being aggressively pitched to. Bat him second, and I think his production would plummet.I think this is a valid point. Also, Stubbs is .287/.346/.484 from the two hole, where he's been for 2/3 of the time now. The leadoff spot is the place for improvement.

REDREAD
05-29-2012, 12:24 AM
I don't want Hanigan batting second. First, he only plays 60% of the games, so it wouldn't be that effective. Second, he's a perfect #8 hitter, who strives on the fact that pitchers pitch around him because the pitcher is up next. Put him in front of Votto, and his walks will drop significantly, and he really doesn't have the bat to take advantage of being aggressively pitched to. Bat him second, and I think his production would plummet.

Good points.

Also, Hannigan has very little power or speed.
Stubbs/Cozart/Heisey can go 1st to 3rd on a single much easier.
A fast runner can sometimes can score from first. That's pretty much impossible for Hannigan. I know some people have a disdain for the stolen base, but it can be useful when the team only needs one run as well.

Hannigan is best at the #8 hole..

Slyder
05-29-2012, 12:41 AM
Hanigan would be perfect, but as Plus Plus noted - catchers don't bat high in the order for Dusty. Of all the great qualities Dusty has as a manager, his "this player bats here" tendencies drive me up a wall.

How much is Hanigan's obp boosted by the fact he is usually batting ahead of the pitcher? I don't care who you are (short of being Brad Ausmus), if you have the pitcher behind you I am going to take every opportunity to let you get yourself out or let you get on and make you decide whether to burn your bench or face the pitcher.

If he gets moved up in the lineup, I would fear him being exposed and costing us value later. This team needs a true cleanup hitter or for Dusty to use Bruce there so that Phillips can go back to being ahead of Votto where he seems to really do well.

Hanigan is a turn the lineup over guy, he isn't going to wow you with anything but he isn't a black hole when he bats.

Caveat Emperor
05-29-2012, 01:16 AM
On the other hand, most catchers do bat 7th or 8th, and Hanigan is walloping most of them in OBP -- so there's clearly something going on there that's not just a product of his spot in the lineup.

Slyder
05-29-2012, 01:22 AM
On the other hand, most catchers do bat 7th or 8th, and Hanigan is walloping most of them in OBP -- so there's clearly something going on there that's not just a product of his spot in the lineup.

Hanigan's better at not getting himself out IMO. Hanigan understands his game and doesn't go up there looking to be a hero and bash a 460 ft homer. Other catchers are expected to do more (Santana, McCann, Posey, etc) with the bat than just get on base though thus they may swing more at those borderline pitches attempting to put them in play or work the count for a good pitch to hit. Just my theory.

RedsManRick
05-29-2012, 06:38 AM
Good points.

Also, Hannigan has very little power or speed.
Stubbs/Cozart/Heisey can go 1st to 3rd on a single much easier.
A fast runner can sometimes can score from first. That's pretty much impossible for Hannigan. I know some people have a disdain for the stolen base, but it can be useful when the team only needs one run as well.

Hannigan is best at the #8 hole..


Going from 1st to 3rd requires being on 1st. Nobody has disdain for the stolen base; it's certainly a useful weapon. They have disdain for favoring the stolen base over getting to first base.

CesarGeronimo
05-29-2012, 10:23 AM
Good points.

Also, Hannigan has very little power or speed.
Stubbs/Cozart/Heisey can go 1st to 3rd on a single much easier.
A fast runner can sometimes can score from first. That's pretty much impossible for Hannigan. I know some people have a disdain for the stolen base, but it can be useful when the team only needs one run as well.

Hannigan is best at the #8 hole..

The Reds are dead last in the National League in stolen bases with 19. Their leadoff hitter, Cozart, has one stolen base in the first 48 games. Cozart's on base pct. is .289 and sinking (.264 over the past 30 days).

The Reds are tied for third in the National League home runs with 53 home runs. They are tied for first in the National League in doubles with 94.

Do you really think it makes sense to structure the Reds offense around their anemic running game rather than to emphasize getting runners on base in front of their power hitters?

The Voice of IH
05-29-2012, 10:37 AM
Here's an idea,

Phillips
Heisey
Votto
Hanigan
Bruce
Stubbs
Frazier
Cozart

I would move Hanigan to the four hole when he plays, allowing to free up Phillips and his high OBP. Therefore, speed will not be a problem.

Hanigan down in the order hurts the Reds I believe. He does not have the speed to get around the bases, so even if we do get the high OBP, Batting Average guys at the top of the order, he will not get around the bases in the later innings, and the Reds will lose runs.

Hanigan in the middle of the order moves the line, and can play hit and run. He does not protect Votto, but if Votto walks the opposing team could be facing a jam with Hanigan getting on after him.

I like it.

_Sir_Charles_
05-29-2012, 10:41 AM
Here's an idea,

Phillips
Heisey
Votto
Hanigan
Bruce
Stubbs
Frazier
Cozart

Idea thief. ;)

The Voice of IH
05-29-2012, 10:42 AM
Idea thief. ;)

lol, I didn't read all of the thread. Glad to see we agree. :)

_Sir_Charles_
05-29-2012, 10:44 AM
I was just messin' with you. But yeah, I think it would work. Mes fits there too IMO.

membengal
05-29-2012, 11:08 AM
I would like to arrange to have Bip Roberts' 1992 season dropped onto this team. Someone please locate the spare flux capacitor...

Slyder
05-29-2012, 11:37 AM
I would like to arrange to have Bip Roberts' 1992 season dropped onto this team. Someone please locate the spare flux capacitor...

How about 1989 Eric Davis while were at it and stick him in the middle of the lineup ;).

bucksfan2
05-29-2012, 11:44 AM
How about 1989 Eric Davis while were at it and stick him in the middle of the lineup ;).

I would take the mid 90's Barry Larkin. Put him in the 2 hole and watch this offense go.

RedsManRick
05-29-2012, 12:44 PM
Assuming Votto and Bruce have to stay put, I'd give this a go:

Phillips
Catcher
Votto
Frazier
Bruce
Heisey/Ludwick
Stubbs
Cozart

If batting in front of the pitcher means more fastballs, why not put somebody there who can crush a fastball but otherwise isn't so great at getting on base? A guy with great contact ability and a good eye, but no power, strikes me as the exact wrong guy who put in a spot where he's going to get stuff to hit. Hanigan doesn't need that help. Cozart/Stubbs do -- and both guys can punish a mistake more than Hanigan and are more likely to advance themselves on the bases when the guy at the plate isn't a good bet to do so.

bucksfan2
05-29-2012, 01:34 PM
Assuming Votto and Bruce have to stay put, I'd give this a go:

Phillips
Catcher
Votto
Frazier
Bruce
Heisey/Ludwick
Stubbs
Cozart

If batting in front of the pitcher means more fastballs, why not put somebody there who can crush a fastball but otherwise isn't so great at getting on base? A guy with great contact ability and a good eye, but no power, strikes me as the exact wrong guy who put in a spot where he's going to get stuff to hit. Hanigan doesn't need that help. Cozart/Stubbs do -- and both guys can punish a mistake more than Hanigan and are more likely to advance themselves on the bases when the guy at the plate isn't a good bet to do so.

In the 2 hole Drew Stubbs has an OBP of .350. If Drew Stubbs can get an OBP of .350 he may just be an all star. I wouldn't move him out of that slot at all.

The thing with Hanigan is his lack of power. He has some HR power but that is mainly down the LF line. He nutted a ball yesterday that ended up in the LF gap yesterday, a ball that isn't a HR anywhere in the league. If he hits in front of Votto he will get challenged more with FB's and I think his OBP wil struggle. I actually like Hanigan in the 8 hole. He has the ability to turn the lineup over. I think his best skill is his knowledge of the strike zone which is key hitting 8th with the pitcher behind him.

As for lineup I guess here is mine:

Phillips
Stubbs
Votto
Heisey/Ludwick
Bruce
Frazier
Cozart
Hanigan
P

Phillips is really the only hitter that I can remember who lets his slot in the order dictate the way he is going to hit. I like Phillips when he molds himself as a leadoff hitter much more than the Phillips who thinks he is a cleanup hitter.

RedsManRick
05-29-2012, 02:16 PM
In the 2 hole Drew Stubbs has an OBP of .350. If Drew Stubbs can get an OBP of .350 he may just be an all star. I wouldn't move him out of that slot at all.

The thing with Hanigan is his lack of power. He has some HR power but that is mainly down the LF line. He nutted a ball yesterday that ended up in the LF gap yesterday, a ball that isn't a HR anywhere in the league. If he hits in front of Votto he will get challenged more with FB's and I think his OBP wil struggle.

I don't follow this logic. He's a great contact hitter. How does seeing more good pitches hurt him? It suggests he should get fewer walks and more hits.

And on the flip side, regarding Stubbs in the 2 hole, that good OBP is completely explained by a .391 BABIP, compared to a still good .324 batting leadoff (career). He walks and strikes out just as much batting 2nd as he does batting leadoff, he's just gotten better results on his batted balls. We don't have good reason to believe he'll continue to be a good OBP guy batting 2nd if he sustains those peripherals.

I would love Stubbs to work out at the top of the order. But I'm done with wishcasting players to be somebody they've never really been before based on an extrapolation of a subset of their performance. Ryan Hanigan has a proven ability to get on base and the guys currently batting after him have a proven ability to make outs. Meanwhile, Joey Votto is suffering from the worst leadoff spot in baseball. Let's not over-complicate this.

oregonred
05-29-2012, 03:32 PM
Meanwhile, Joey Votto is suffering from the worst leadoff spot in baseball HISTORY.


There fixed it for you ;)

211 Leadoff AB's in '12: .200/.270/.470 (52K/9BB)

bucksfan2
05-29-2012, 03:45 PM
I don't follow this logic. He's a great contact hitter. How does seeing more good pitches hurt him? It suggests he should get fewer walks and more hits.

And on the flip side, regarding Stubbs in the 2 hole, that good OBP is completely explained by a .391 BABIP, compared to a still good .324 batting leadoff (career). He walks and strikes out just as much batting 2nd as he does batting leadoff, he's just gotten better results on his batted balls. We don't have good reason to believe he'll continue to be a good OBP guy batting 2nd if he sustains those peripherals.

I would love Stubbs to work out at the top of the order. But I'm done with wishcasting players to be somebody they've never really been before based on an extrapolation of a subset of their performance. Ryan Hanigan has a proven ability to get on base and the guys currently batting after him have a proven ability to make outs. Meanwhile, Joey Votto is suffering from the worst leadoff spot in baseball. Let's not over-complicate this.

I think Hanigan has a good understand of the strike zone. I think that it allows him to lay off a lot of bad pitches out of the zone, pitches that the 8 hole hitter tends to see because the opposing pitcher isn't to worried about walking him. If thrust into the 2nd hole he is more than likely to see pitches pound the zone because they don't want to walk him in front of Votto. I don't think Hanigan has the necessary power to punish pitchers who pound the zone on him. I think that will take a toll on his BA as well as OBP.

RedsManRick
05-29-2012, 04:20 PM
I think Hanigan has a good understand of the strike zone. I think that it allows him to lay off a lot of bad pitches out of the zone, pitches that the 8 hole hitter tends to see because the opposing pitcher isn't to worried about walking him. If thrust into the 2nd hole he is more than likely to see pitches pound the zone because they don't want to walk him in front of Votto. I don't think Hanigan has the necessary power to punish pitchers who pound the zone on him. I think that will take a toll on his BA as well as OBP.

I guess I don't understand how seeing more pitches in the zone will hurt his batting average. For a guy like Stubbs who struggles to make contact, even on pitches in the zone, absolutely. But Hanigan is an elite contact hitter. Yes, more pitches in the zone = fewer walks. But he'll get hits. Yes, he won't hit a ton of extra base hits, but that's precisely why you bat him where his OBP is very important and his ability to do big damage (read: drive in runs) isn't all that important. You could argue slugging is more important for a #8 hitter than for a leadoff hitter.

We have Joey Votto, one of the very best hitters in baseball, batting third. I say we maximize the ability to put ducks on the pond for him and don't worry so much about manufacturing runs via speed at the top of the lineup.

The occasional run we might lose because Hanigan can't score from 1B on a double will be more than offset by the fact that not even Stubbs can score on a double (or a triple, or a homer) while sitting in the dugout.

And as for the double plays -- when speed comes in to play, it's the batter, not the baserunner whose speed matters most -- they'll almost always get the runner either way. Bat Hanny leadoff and you put him in even fewer double play opportunities than he currently sees batting 8th.

As for Stubbs, his strikeouts aren't a result of swinging at too much crap out of the zone. He's actually better than average at laying of pitches out of the zone -- he swings at pitches out of the zone 25% for his career, MLB average is ~29%. Rather, like Adam Dunn, his problem is that he simply can't put the bat on the ball, period. When he swings at pitches in the zone, he makes contact 54% of the time, compared to major league average of 67%. I could easily make the argument that the best way to take advantage of Stubbs' speed is to give him as little to hit as possible.

That said, your basic premise is incorrect. Ryan Hanigan sees more pitches in the strike zone than the average player -- and more than Stubbs. How often a guys sees strikes has a lot more to do with his ability to do damage than where he's batting in the lineup. Stubbs' saving grace is that when he does make contact, he can do some damage. That gives him the opportunity to take advance of his solid plate discipline.

Vottomatic
05-29-2012, 04:27 PM
What's wrong with the leadoff spot? If Dusty sees nothing wrong with leadoff, neither do I. ;)


Leadoff woes
Reds are hitting .166 in leadoff spot....30th in MLB.
A's are 29th hitting .199.
Reds OBP from leadoff spot is .200. Orioles are 29th at .258.
Reds have 52 K, 9 BB, 1 SB from leadoff spot

From leadoff this year
29 starts: Cozart 25 for 127 .197/.233, 6 BB, 30 K
8 starts: Stubbs 3 for 36 .083/.215, 2 BB, 13 K
6 starts: Phillips 5 for 24 .208/.240, 1 BB, 4 K
3 starts: Heisey 2 for 14, .143/.143, 0 BB, 4 K
2 starts: Harris 0 for 8, .000/.000, 0 BB, 1 K

- Lance McAlister's blog

Read more: http://www.espn1530.com/pages/lancesBlog.html#ixzz1wIBxy3sD

REDREAD
05-29-2012, 04:38 PM
Going from 1st to 3rd requires being on 1st. Nobody has disdain for the stolen base; it's certainly a useful weapon. They have disdain for favoring the stolen base over getting to first base.

Well, I guess the point is.
My guess is that when Stubbs gets on base, he has a greater chance of scoring than Hannigan does, when all things are equal.
Can I prove it? No, but it makes sense when you consider Stubbs has more power and speed. When Stubbs gets on, there's more scenerios where he can score on one hit. Hannigan generally needs 2 hits or 1 hit and a bunt.
That's a pretty big difference.

That's one thing I think that is sometimes overlooked. Run expectancy tables average out stuff like that. Of course OBP is important, but it's not the only thing.

Plus, as someone said, Stubbs is posting roughly 350 OBP out of the #2 hole.
With his speed/power, I think that's acceptable. Over 600 plate appearances, if Hannigan could maintain 380 OBP in the #2 slot, he only gets on base 18 more times than Stubbs at 350.. Given that Stubbs is more likely to score than Hannigan, Stubbs might be better.. No proof, but that's my gut feeling.

REDREAD
05-29-2012, 04:40 PM
The Reds are dead last in the National League in stolen bases with 19. Their leadoff hitter, Cozart, has one stolen base in the first 48 games. Cozart's on base pct. is .289 and sinking (.264 over the past 30 days).

The Reds are tied for third in the National League home runs with 53 home runs. They are tied for first in the National League in doubles with 94.

Do you really think it makes sense to structure the Reds offense around their anemic running game rather than to emphasize getting runners on base in front of their power hitters?

Cozart at leadoff is a problem. I agree.
Stubbs at #2 slot is not a problem.

I'm not sure what the solution to the leadoff problem is though.
Phillips is the best in house solution, but then we're short a hitter in the middle of the lineup.. It would be wonderful if we could find a middle of the order hitter somewhere between Rolen, Heisey, Ludwick, Frasier .. but not likely to happen.

REDREAD
05-29-2012, 04:45 PM
And on the flip side, regarding Stubbs in the 2 hole, that good OBP is completely explained by a .391 BABIP, compared to a still good .324 batting leadoff (career). He walks and strikes out just as much batting 2nd as he does batting leadoff, he's just gotten better results on his batted balls. We don't have good reason to believe he'll continue to be a good OBP guy batting 2nd if he sustains those peripherals.

I would love Stubbs to work out at the top of the order. But I'm done with wishcasting players to be somebody they've never really been before based on an extrapolation of a subset of their performance. Ryan Hanigan has a proven ability to get on base and the guys currently batting after him have a proven ability to make outs. Meanwhile, Joey Votto is suffering from the worst leadoff spot in baseball. Let's not over-complicate this.

We've seen Stubb's performance fluctate based on where he hits in the lineup.
Not sure if it is a coincidence or not. Overall, the offense is struggling a bit.
Stubbs has been hitting well, I'd prefer not to mess with that.
Sure, it may not last, but why risk it? Stubbs is comfortable hitting in front of Votto, for whatever reason. He might be getting pitched differently there (I have not a study).

I agree that Cozart needs out of the leadoff slot though.

dougdirt
05-29-2012, 04:54 PM
We've seen Stubb's performance fluctate based on where he hits in the lineup.
He might be getting pitched differently there (I have not a study).


Looking at fangraphs, he isn't really being pitched to much differently this year than last, at least in terms of types of pitches he is seeing and how frequently he is seeing them.

westofyou
05-29-2012, 05:35 PM
Redszones nervous tic must be threads about lineups, this is like the 4th ongoing one

FWIW Hanigan gets on base but I wouldn't want to bat him high myself, he's slow and as a catcher his legs will be gone sooner in a game and a season before every other player on the diamond

Maybe I'll run some strat seasons with him as a slot two guy and see what comes from it

RedsManRick
05-29-2012, 08:00 PM
Well, I guess the point is.
My guess is that when Stubbs gets on base, he has a greater chance of scoring than Hannigan does, when all things are equal.
Can I prove it? No, but it makes sense when you consider Stubbs has more power and speed. When Stubbs gets on, there's more scenerios where he can score on one hit. Hannigan generally needs 2 hits or 1 hit and a bunt.
That's a pretty big difference.

You're right. But we can do some simple math to see where the cutoff is.

Let's say Stubbs gets on base 32% of the time and Hanigan 36%. That's Stubbs' career average and about a 10 point hit for Hanny.

And then let's say Stubbs scores 50% of the time he gets on base. Over 600 PA, that's 600 PA * 32% * 50% = 96 runs scored.

For Hanny to score 96 = 600 * 36% * X. Solve for X and we get 44.4%

So basically, that means that for every 10 times Stubbs scores Hanny would need to have scored 9 times.

But that's just looking at the value of Hanigan as a baserunner. It doesn't factor in the added value from his extra hits (compared to Stubbs), potentially advancing other runners on base. Nor does it include that, by not making an out, Hanigan also creates an extra 24 plate appearances for other hitters -- guys in the middle of the order -- who would not have had the chance to bat otherwise.

That's what makes getting on base so important. It's not only better than making an out from the "you have a guy on base" angle, but it also creates another plate appearance. Speed is nice, but rarely does it trump a significant gap in OBP.

FWIW, I still would have him in a pretty strict platoon with Mes and wouldn't have a problem with batting Mes down in the order. Of course, Dusty is against a lineup where guys have to move around in the order.

edabbs44
05-29-2012, 08:25 PM
Rick, we are seeing Stubbs getting on base at nearly .350 in the 2 hole. Why would he be an issue right now?

_Sir_Charles_
05-29-2012, 08:36 PM
Rick answered that earlier.....

regarding Stubbs in the 2 hole, that good OBP is completely explained by a .391 BABIP, compared to a still good .324 batting leadoff (career). He walks and strikes out just as much batting 2nd as he does batting leadoff, he's just gotten better results on his batted balls. We don't have good reason to believe he'll continue to be a good OBP guy batting 2nd if he sustains those peripherals

edabbs44
05-29-2012, 09:03 PM
Drew has a not too too far off the babip mark of .354 this year hitting #2.

oregonred
05-30-2012, 01:40 PM
How low can you go... An 0-5 last night from Cozart brings the leadoff OPS down to.459. Now need a couple of hot leadoff days to catch the #9 OPS of .491.

traderumor
05-30-2012, 02:02 PM
How low can you go... An 0-5 last night from Cozart brings the leadoff OPS down to.459. Now need a couple of hot leadoff days to catch the #9 OPS of .491.I dunno, but he's not a leadoff hitter at this point in his career, too much of a hacker. Needs to hit 7th. Go get another power hitter and move Phillips back up to leadoff would be my next big move.

And find lefty/righty bench players used primarily as late inning PHers.

klw
05-30-2012, 02:02 PM
Votto is doubly awesome.
http://espn.go.com/blog/sweetspot/post/_/id/24976/joey-votto-is-doubly-awesome


I'm working on a little project for later this afternoon, but wanted to point out a cool fact about Joey Votto: He's on pace for 73 doubles.

That, in case you didn't know, would be a single-season record.

redsmetz
05-30-2012, 02:32 PM
Votto is doubly awesome.
http://espn.go.com/blog/sweetspot/post/_/id/24976/joey-votto-is-doubly-awesome

Fay had a blurb about Votto and his doubles. Joey indicated it's a result of doing less, going with what he's thrown. He suggested last year he became fixated on homers, whereas now he's just going with what he's seeing.

Regarding being on a pace for a record, he replied to Fay:

Paces are very overrated, Votto said. I once had 15, 17 doubles in a month. You go through hot stretches and cold stretches. Were two months into the season. Its premature to bring it up. Im happy were winning. Im happy that Im doing my part.

CesarGeronimo
05-30-2012, 04:28 PM
I dunno, but he's not a leadoff hitter at this point in his career, too much of a hacker. Needs to hit 7th. Go get another power hitter and move Phillips back up to leadoff would be my next big move.

And find lefty/righty bench players used primarily as late inning PHers.

Seems like the cleanup hitter for now should be Frazier and put Phillips back up to leadoff. I think we're at that point now where there's lots of media attention to the issue of the Reds' terrible numbers at leadoff and Dusty will stubbornly stick to what he's doing now for a while and be agitated with any media questions about it. But he'll soon have to make a change unless Cozart hits a hot streak.

RedlegJake
05-30-2012, 04:30 PM
Seems like the cleanup hitter for now should be Frazier and put Phillips back up to leadoff. I think we're at that point now where there's lots of media attention to the issue of the Reds' terrible numbers at leadoff and Dusty will stubbornly stick to what he's doing now for a while and be agitated with any media questions about it. But he'll soon have to make a change unless Cozart hits a hot streak.

I agree. Get Cozart back to the 7th or 8tyh spot and take some pressure off, get BP back to the role I think he does best, and let Frazier hit cleanup at least while his bat is hot.

Vottomatic
05-30-2012, 04:57 PM
Joey gets the night off. In fact, he gets 2 days rest with the day off tomorrow.

I don't get it.

OnBaseMachine
05-30-2012, 05:01 PM
Joey gets the night off. In fact, he gets 2 days rest with the day off tomorrow.

I don't get it.

And the Reds have an off day Monday too. Makes no sense to me, especially after Dusty basically punted Monday's game.

RedlegJake
05-30-2012, 05:05 PM
The bench looks better, though

westofyou
05-30-2012, 05:32 PM
And the Reds have an off day Monday too. Makes no sense to me, especially after Dusty basically punted Monday's game.

Why?

Because baseball is a six month sport with limited down time and everyone even gods need a blow now and then

Travel is grueling if you do it all the time

edabbs44
05-30-2012, 05:33 PM
There is nothing to get. You know he will play every game with limited exceptions. Maybe he is a little banged up, run down, whatever.

westofyou
05-30-2012, 05:41 PM
Oh and dusty punted the game Monday? Must have missed his ABs

Big Klu
05-30-2012, 05:41 PM
Why?

Because baseball is a six month sport with limited down time and everyone even gods need a blow now and then

Travel is grueling if you do it all the time

But I can use the same lineup every game on my PS3!

redsmetz
05-30-2012, 05:46 PM
But I can use the same lineup every game on my PS3!

Unfortunately too many folks here forget that we have living, breathing human beings playing the game and don't need things like rest.

redsmetz
05-30-2012, 05:48 PM
Joey gets the night off. In fact, he gets 2 days rest with the day off tomorrow.

I don't get it.

I really wish you were joking, but sadly, I honestly think you don't understand. Dusty's only been saying for a week that he wanted to get Joey a day off. The opportunity provides itself for that day off, plus another, and you're mystified. That's truly mystifying in itself.

edabbs44
05-30-2012, 05:49 PM
Oh and dusty punted the game Monday? Must have missed his ABs

If Cozart and Frazier sitting equates to "punting the game", this team is in serious trouble.

VR
05-30-2012, 06:12 PM
But I can use the same lineup every game on my PS3!

:laugh:

Sadly this is the lens that is looked through. Read box scores in the newspaper every day....every team plays musical chairs daily in the marathon we call baseball season.

westofyou
05-30-2012, 06:30 PM
:laugh:

Sadly this is the lens that is looked through. Read box scores in the newspaper every day....every team plays musical chairs daily in the marathon we call baseball season.

Moral of the story is follow the whole league not just a team and one becomes a lot less perplexed

_Sir_Charles_
05-30-2012, 06:46 PM
Why?

Because baseball is a six month sport with limited down time and everyone even gods need a blow now and then

Travel is grueling if you do it all the time

This.

I've got ZERO problems with Votto getting the game off today. Everybody else is getting a game off during this stretch...but not Joey? That would just be silly.

757690
05-30-2012, 07:07 PM
I heard it was because there was a fancy shirt sale at the Macy's in Pittsburgh today ;)

Raisor
05-30-2012, 07:17 PM
I heard it was because there was a fancy shirt sale at the Macy's in Pittsburgh today ;)

Maybe he had a couple extra fancy coffees too.

757690
05-30-2012, 07:28 PM
Maybe he had a couple extra fancy coffees too.

He had to settle for the fancy coffee, since the fancy shirts were all gone by the time he got there... Leake had stolen them all.

dougdirt
05-30-2012, 07:51 PM
Dusty figures Cueto is pitching against the Pirates. We don't need much offense to win this one. Joey, take a rest.

I get it. Not sure I would have done it with the off days coming up, but I certainly get it.

Always Red
05-30-2012, 08:05 PM
Why?

Because baseball is a six month sport with limited down time and everyone even gods need a blow now and then

Travel is grueling if you do it all the time

woy, agree with you most of the time, but the chartered 45 minute flights of the NL Central are not all that grueling. Not as compared to the train trips of the past, at least.

I have no problem with Votto out tonight, and wouldn't be surprised to see a ph appearance if needed. Joey will have off 3 of the next 6 days, if I am counting correctly. Just enough time for him to rest up for the heat of summer.

westofyou
05-30-2012, 09:16 PM
woy, agree with you most of the time, but the chartered 45 minute flights of the NL Central are not all that grueling. Not as compared to the train trips of the past, at least.

I have no problem with Votto out tonight, and wouldn't be surprised to see a ph appearance if needed. Joey will have off 3 of the next 6 days, if I am counting correctly. Just enough time for him to rest up for the heat of summer.

I've read that trains were better, more relaxing and you weren't doing cross country stuff

Each move is a move from a routine and part if the reason a player exceeds at home is adherence to routine

Travel is great, travel for a living sucks and it messes with routines, routines are a baseball players best friend

Always Red
05-30-2012, 09:39 PM
I've read that trains were better, more relaxing and you weren't doing cross country stuff

Each move is a move from a routine and part if the reason a player exceeds at home is adherence to routine

Travel is great, travel for a living sucks and it messes with routines, routines are a baseball players best friend

Welsh was talking about this on TV the other night, most of the Reds trips are 45 minutes to an hour and a half on a charter. They left after the game against the Rockies on Sunday afternoon, and were in Pittsburgh 45 minutes later. Rare are the cross country trips to the west coast for the Reds.

Many folks here drive that much or more (45 -90 minutes) in a car every single day to go back and forth to work.

But living out of a suitcase would totally and completely suck. As would being away from family, which is sometimes how I get through a day at work, looking forward to being home with them.

I don't envy the travel schedule of an MLB player, but it's better than it used to be- far less time to get to places, and traveling in far more comfort.

OnBaseMachine
05-31-2012, 02:29 AM
Oh and dusty punted the game Monday? Must have missed his ABs

Batting Wilson Valdez second was awful, IMO. He put an automatic out in front of Votto. The Reds can't afford to give guys too many days off when the bench is full of automatic outs like Cairo, Constanzo, and Valdez. I don't mind giving Votto a day off every now and then, but not when there is an off day tomorrow followed by another one Monday. I can't help but wonder if the Reds had won that game tonight had Votto been in the lineup.

GAC
05-31-2012, 04:18 AM
Can Hanigan bunt? If not, that, and his lack of speed, is why Dusty will never place a guy like that near the top. :mooner:

I have no huge problem with Baker, but lets face it.... his mindset, as well as Jocketty's (and that is key too), is traditionalist leaning. Dusty played, and learned to manage, during an era of small ball thinking influenced by astro turf, speed, more pitcher-friendly stadiums, and no problem giving away outs when you're scratching for runs.

GAC
05-31-2012, 04:35 AM
Why?

Because baseball is a six month sport with limited down time and everyone even gods need a blow now and then

Travel is grueling if you do it all the time

Yep. It's really easy for a fan, relaxing, watching a game, and maybe enjoying their favorite beverage, to complain "Why is so-and-so getting a day off?" Yet those same fans probably get one or two days off a week from work.

The Reds just played 29 days of baseball with only one scheduled break (day off) earlier in the month. Regardless that these athletes may be in better shape conditioning-wise then most - and lets not forget the mental aspect either - you still have to give them a day off now and then.

So Joey will get a couple straight days off. How often does one think that's going to happen this year? Unless he doesn't make the AS team. ;)

edabbs44
05-31-2012, 07:15 AM
Can Hanigan bunt? If not, that, and his lack of speed, is why Dusty will never place a guy like that near the top. :mooner:

I have no huge problem with Baker, but lets face it.... his mindset, as well as Jocketty's (and that is key too), is traditionalist leaning. Dusty played, and learned to manage, during an era of small ball thinking influenced by astro turf, speed, more pitcher-friendly stadiums, and no problem giving away outs when you're scratching for runs.

Aren't we in a similar era?

bucksfan2
05-31-2012, 08:08 AM
It was a decision that backfired but I don't have an issue with it. Buying your star player an extra day off is a huge bonus during a 162 game schedule. Dusty commented that Joey was looking a little worn down lately and wanted to give him the day off. They talked and decided on yesterday him getting the day off.

Even without Joey Votto this team should be able to muster more than 1 run. They didn't do that. It stinks losing to the Pirates but such is baseball.

westofyou
05-31-2012, 08:20 AM
Batting Wilson Valdez second was awful, IMO. He put an automatic out in front of Votto. The Reds can't afford to give guys too many days off when the bench is full of automatic outs like Cairo, Constanzo, and Valdez. I don't mind giving Votto a day off every now and then, but not when there is an off day tomorrow followed by another one Monday. I can't help but wonder if the Reds had won that game tonight had Votto been in the lineup.

Then blame Walt for the bench, a weak bench doesn't mean you ride the starters 24/7 the onus falls on the GM

As for Valdez acting 2nd being the cause of the loss Monday, I don't see it. The pitcher has a whip under, 1 and an era of 2.2

Lets at least acknowledge that he had a hand in limiting the Reds to 5 hits and the loss, as opposed to Valdez batting second being the deal breaker

dougdirt
05-31-2012, 08:40 AM
Aren't we in a similar era?

Not really, no.

CesarGeronimo
05-31-2012, 11:15 AM
Aren't we in a similar era?

Have you seen GAB?

REDREAD
05-31-2012, 11:49 AM
And then let's say Stubbs scores 50% of the time he gets on base. Over 600 PA, that's 600 PA * 32% * 50% = 96 runs scored.

For Hanny to score 96 = 600 * 36% * X. Solve for X and we get 44.4%

So basically, that means that for every 10 times Stubbs scores Hanny would need to have scored 9 times.
.

Yes I agree with your math/analysis.
I also admit that it's impossible for me to prove my assertion, because it's hard to replay everything in real life.

I kind of like Hannigan hitting #8. He's slow with a good OBP. That means when the pitcher comes up, he can bunt Hannigan into scoring position.
Since the pitcher is not a productive spot in the lineup, at least we can get a productive out there. Hannigan benefits from being bunted over more than someone like Stubbs would. So in theory, Hannigan gets on, he gets bunted over and now he only needs one good hit to be scored on. I actually think Hannigan is the best guy on the team to bat #8. Frasier and our LF have some flaws, but they have some power, which is useful in the #6 and #7 batting slots (to hopefully drive in the middle of the order hitters).

Now it would be nicer to have a better leadoff man who could actually drive Hannigan in more often (like Phillips).. I concede that point.

Interestingly enough, Stubbs did score 92 runs last year with a 321 OBP.
He had 147 hits, 63 BB, which means he score 43% of the time.
He batted 111 games #1 or #2, and 57 games in other spots in the order.

In 2011, Hanigan had a 356 OBP, He scored 27 runs. He had 106 hits + walks.
So he scored 25% of the time.

This of course proves nothing. Hanigan is penalized for batting in the lower part of the batting order, but I was just curious of the actual numbers and I wondered what the OBP gap was last year.

Reds/Flyers Fan
05-31-2012, 12:01 PM
Welsh was talking about this on TV the other night, most of the Reds trips are 45 minutes to an hour and a half on a charter. They left after the game against the Rockies on Sunday afternoon, and were in Pittsburgh 45 minutes later. Rare are the cross country trips to the west coast for the Reds.

Many folks here drive that much or more (45 -90 minutes) in a car every single day to go back and forth to work.

But living out of a suitcase would totally and completely suck. As would being away from family, which is sometimes how I get through a day at work, looking forward to being home with them.

I don't envy the travel schedule of an MLB player, but it's better than it used to be- far less time to get to places, and traveling in far more comfort.

Cincinnati is perfectly located for easy travel for the Reds (and Bengals, for that matter). Within a 45-min. to 90-min flight among regular Reds opponents are:

Pirates, Cubs, Brewers, _ardinals, Mets, Nationals, Phillies, Braves and Indians (not to mention other American League cities for when the Reds visit there, like Detroit, Baltimore, Chicago, NYY and Toronto).

Imagine the Mariners, who require at least a 2-hour flight to get anywhere and most destinations are much longer. And the Rockies, who, other than trips to Phoenix, are also on planes for longer than two hours to get anywhere.

edabbs44
05-31-2012, 03:25 PM
Have you seen GAB?

In 2000, Tampa was the worst offense in the league using OPS as the filter. This year they would be ranked 11th in the majors.

Vottomatic
05-31-2012, 04:03 PM
I really wish you were joking, but sadly, I honestly think you don't understand. Dusty's only been saying for a week that he wanted to get Joey a day off. The opportunity provides itself for that day off, plus another, and you're mystified. That's truly mystifying in itself.

I really wish you were joking.

If I had heard something that Votto was banged up, I would have been okay with it. I heard no mention of it. If he is, then it's fine. If he isn't, I see no reason to take a GAME OFF with a DAY OFF coming the next day. Especially after Dusty punted Monday's game by resting 2 starters for the same game. This team has ZERO BENCH. ZERO. I don't think any bench player is hitting higher than .210, but that's without looking it up. This team needs all of it's starters playing full time. If they need a day off, let one guy sit, not two.

IF Joey needs a game off, do it during a long stretch of games with no day off in sight.

My beef with Dusty since he became manager years ago is that he lacks the killer instinct. Cardinals are struggling. Reds are in first place. Coulda been 2.5 games up after last night.

Dusty often just writes games off as losses instead of trying to win them. Seriously. I've seen it for years. He just gives up and says we'll win tomorrow, when today's game is far from over. And usually for some silly reason. And he's horrible at knowing the wheels are falling off. He's been a little bit better this year, and I'll attribute that to his pet, Cordero, being gone and him willing to do more of a closer by committee. He used to live and die by Cordero, even when it was clear he didn't have it at all.

I didn't like his moves in the 9th either. And it's a huge topic on Mo's show right now. I agree with the bulk of the callers who didn't like it either, about his use of the bench in the 9th inning. Headscratcher extraordinaire moves.

redsmetz
05-31-2012, 04:10 PM
I really wish you were joking.

If I had heard something that Votto was banged up, I would have been okay with it. I heard no mention of it. If he is, then it's fine. If he isn't, I see no reason to take a GAME OFF with a DAY OFF coming the next day. Especially after Dusty punted Monday's game by resting 2 starters for the same game. This team has ZERO BENCH. ZERO. I don't think any bench player is hitting higher than .210, but that's without looking it up. This team needs all of it's starters playing full time. If they need a day off, let one guy sit, not two.

IF Joey needs a game off, do it during a long stretch of games with no day off in sight.

My beef with Dusty since he became manager years ago is that he lacks the killer instinct. Cardinals are struggling. Reds are in first place. Coulda been 2.5 games up after last night.

Dusty often just writes games off as losses instead of trying to win them. Seriously. I've seen it for years. He just gives up and says we'll win tomorrow, when today's game is far from over. And usually for some silly reason. And he's horrible at knowing the wheels are falling off. He's been a little bit better this year, and I'll attribute that to his pet, Cordero, being gone and him willing to do more of a closer by committee. He used to live and die by Cordero, even when it was clear he didn't have it at all.

I didn't like his moves in the 9th either. And it's a huge topic on Mo's show right now. I agree with the bulk of the callers who didn't like it either, about his use of the bench in the 9th inning. Headscratcher extraordinaire moves.

I'm dead serious. I guess I'm going to have to figure out the ignore filter because I find pretty much anything you write anymore is just incredibly tedious. It made absolute sense for yesterday to be the day off for Votto and you're the rare poster who didn't get it. Sadly, the very fact that Dusty Baker opens his eyes every morning and puts on a Reds uniform has made you absolutely unhappy. Oh well.

westofyou
05-31-2012, 04:13 PM
I really wish you were joking.

If I had heard something that Votto was banged up, I would have been okay with it. I heard no mention of it. If he is, then it's fine. If he isn't, I see no reason to take a GAME OFF with a DAY OFF coming the next day. Especially after Dusty punted Monday's game by resting 2 starters for the same game. This team has ZERO BENCH. ZERO. I don't think any bench player is hitting higher than .210, but that's without looking it up. This team needs all of it's starters playing full time. If they need a day off, let one guy sit, not two.

IF Joey needs a game off, do it during a long stretch of games with no day off in sight.

My beef with Dusty since he became manager years ago is that he lacks the killer instinct. Cardinals are struggling. Reds are in first place. Coulda been 2.5 games up after last night.

Dusty often just writes games off as losses instead of trying to win them. Seriously. I've seen it for years. He just gives up and says we'll win tomorrow, when today's game is far from over. And usually for some silly reason. And he's horrible at knowing the wheels are falling off. He's been a little bit better this year, and I'll attribute that to his pet, Cordero, being gone and him willing to do more of a closer by committee. He used to live and die by Cordero, even when it was clear he didn't have it at all.

I didn't like his moves in the 9th either. And it's a huge topic on Mo's show right now. I agree with the bulk of the callers who didn't like it either, about his use of the bench in the 9th inning. Headscratcher extraordinaire moves.
From Fay:

Votto has played in 176 straight games. There was, of course, a chance he'd play Wednesday. He had started 106 straight games.

The day was Votto's call.

"I talked to Joey about a week ago," Reds manager Dusty Baker said. "We came up with this day as the best day. I was a little apprehensive that two days in a row would hurt his stroke. He said it's not going to bother him at all. Joey Votto knows Joey Votto pretty well.

"When a guy gets to that certain status, certain prowess, you owe it to him and us to discuss it with him. Some off days I mandate. Some off days, we discuss it. This is one we discussed."

traderumor
05-31-2012, 04:55 PM
I really wish you were joking.

If I had heard something that Votto was banged up, I would have been okay with it. I heard no mention of it. If he is, then it's fine. If he isn't, I see no reason to take a GAME OFF with a DAY OFF coming the next day. Especially after Dusty punted Monday's game by resting 2 starters for the same game. This team has ZERO BENCH. ZERO. I don't think any bench player is hitting higher than .210, but that's without looking it up. This team needs all of it's starters playing full time. If they need a day off, let one guy sit, not two.

IF Joey needs a game off, do it during a long stretch of games with no day off in sight.

My beef with Dusty since he became manager years ago is that he lacks the killer instinct. Cardinals are struggling. Reds are in first place. Coulda been 2.5 games up after last night.

Dusty often just writes games off as losses instead of trying to win them. Seriously. I've seen it for years. He just gives up and says we'll win tomorrow, when today's game is far from over. And usually for some silly reason. And he's horrible at knowing the wheels are falling off. He's been a little bit better this year, and I'll attribute that to his pet, Cordero, being gone and him willing to do more of a closer by committee. He used to live and die by Cordero, even when it was clear he didn't have it at all.

I didn't like his moves in the 9th either. And it's a huge topic on Mo's show right now. I agree with the bulk of the callers who didn't like it either, about his use of the bench in the 9th inning. Headscratcher extraordinaire moves.
You are going to find people that agree with you on WLW. Personally, I wouldn't acknowledge that as my appeal to authority...

westofyou
05-31-2012, 05:03 PM
You are going to find people that agree with you on WLW. Personally, I wouldn't acknowledge that as my appeal to authority...

I pride myself on NOT agreeing with that sub group myself

_Sir_Charles_
05-31-2012, 06:13 PM
IF Joey needs a game off, do it during a long stretch of games with no day off in sight.

I really don't get this mentality. By giving Votto his day off where he did, he not only basically DOUBLED his time off (next to a regular off day) but he gave him an extremely light WEEK too. It may piss fans off right now, but come the second half of the season and we've got a fresher Votto for the playoff push...I won't be hearing many complaints.

As for the bench...the quality of our bench should have ZERO bearing on when and if starters get a day off or not. The season is a very long GRIND. I certainly don't know too many jobs out there that have you work 20 days in a row without a day off, do you?

traderumor
05-31-2012, 06:19 PM
I really don't get this mentality. By giving Votto his day off where he did, he not only basically DOUBLED his time off (next to a regular off day) but he gave him an extremely light WEEK too. It may piss fans off right now, but come the second half of the season and we've got a fresher Votto for the playoff push...I won't be hearing many complaints.

As for the bench...the quality of our bench should have ZERO bearing on when and if starters get a day off or not. The season is a very long GRIND. I certainly don't know too many jobs out there that have you work 20 days in a row without a day off, do you?I'm pretty sure this is a no win decision with the category of fan who deadpans any decision in a loss.

Vottomatic
05-31-2012, 07:15 PM
You are going to find people that agree with you on WLW. Personally, I wouldn't acknowledge that as my appeal to authority...

Interestingly enough, nearly all my friends who are Reds fans questioned it too, including my 75 year old father, who had season tickets all the way through Crosley Field through Riverfront until they moved to GABP. I have friends who played college baseball, minor league baseball, college football, college basketball...........the point being, I have very astute, knowledgeable sports/baseball friends. Yes, certainly, some didn't question it.

To paint me in the corner as the only one who questioned it, is small minded.

Still don't understand the constant ripping on me for not liking Dusty Baker. If you like him, congrats. Enjoy. I can respect that. Please simply respect me for not liking him.

The only reason I can figure he has a winning record as a manager is he had teams full of great players. In my 47 years of watching mlb, I've never questioned a manager more. In fact, I have wondered for years how much better this team COULD BE. They might simply be good under Baker. And under a better manager with better decision-making, might be VERY GOOD.

But we can all just agree to disagree.

CySeymour
05-31-2012, 07:34 PM
Still don't understand the constant ripping on me for not liking Dusty Baker. If you like him, congrats. Enjoy. I can respect that. Please simply respect me for not liking him.

There are more then enough people on here who rip Dusty. I think sometimes it's the things you choose to critisize Baker on that some on here disagree with you about.

pedro
05-31-2012, 07:47 PM
I really wish you were joking.

If I had heard something that Votto was banged up, I would have been okay with it. I heard no mention of it. If he is, then it's fine. If he isn't, I see no reason to take a GAME OFF with a DAY OFF coming the next day. Especially after Dusty punted Monday's game by resting 2 starters for the same game. This team has ZERO BENCH. ZERO. I don't think any bench player is hitting higher than .210, but that's without looking it up. This team needs all of it's starters playing full time. If they need a day off, let one guy sit, not two.

IF Joey needs a game off, do it during a long stretch of games with no day off in sight.

My beef with Dusty since he became manager years ago is that he lacks the killer instinct. Cardinals are struggling. Reds are in first place. Coulda been 2.5 games up after last night.

Dusty often just writes games off as losses instead of trying to win them. Seriously. I've seen it for years. He just gives up and says we'll win tomorrow, when today's game is far from over. And usually for some silly reason. And he's horrible at knowing the wheels are falling off. He's been a little bit better this year, and I'll attribute that to his pet, Cordero, being gone and him willing to do more of a closer by committee. He used to live and die by Cordero, even when it was clear he didn't have it at all.

I didn't like his moves in the 9th either. And it's a huge topic on Mo's show right now. I agree with the bulk of the callers who didn't like it either, about his use of the bench in the 9th inning. Headscratcher extraordinaire moves.


Giving Votto off last night so he can have 2 days off in a row is perfectly defensible whether you agree with it or not.

OnBaseMachine
05-31-2012, 08:10 PM
I just wish Dusty had picked a different day to give Votto off. A.J. Burnett is tough on RH batters, having Votto's stick in there would have been nice.

_Sir_Charles_
05-31-2012, 08:57 PM
I just wish Dusty had picked a different day to give Votto off. A.J. Burnett is tough on RH batters, having Votto's stick in there would have been nice.

The problem there is that this reasoning can be used for EVERY pitcher. In a perfect world he'd never get a day off or an AB off. Having Votto's stick in there would have been nice against EVERY pitcher.

westofyou
05-31-2012, 10:32 PM
I just wish Dusty had picked a different day to give Votto off. A.J. Burnett is tough on RH batters, having Votto's stick in there would have been nice.

Votto chose that day



The day was Votto's call.

"I talked to Joey about a week ago," Reds manager Dusty Baker said. "We came up with this day as the best day. I was a little apprehensive that two days in a row would hurt his stroke. He said it's not going to bother him at all. Joey Votto knows Joey Votto pretty well.


If anything Dusty was also worried about it.

Just for a different reason.

VR
06-01-2012, 12:36 AM
We like Fridays or Mondays off to make it a three day weekend which, at the right time, can feel like a week off.

I think the mental break for Votto would serve the same purpose..and, you get the bonus of having him pinch hit as the potential winning run.

Votto getting a day off isn't the problem, having no viable bats (or gloves) to play on the regulars' off day is.

WVRedsFan
06-01-2012, 12:46 AM
We like Fridays or Mondays off to make it a three day weekend which, at the right time, can feel like a week off.

I think the mental break for Votto would serve the same purpose..and, you get the bonus of having him pinch hit as the potential winning run.

Votto getting a day off isn't the problem, having no viable bats (or gloves) to play on the regulars' off day is.

True. While we assembled a world class pitching staff, we forgot the bench. Instead, the Reds gave contracts to people no one wanted in the form of Ryan Ludwick (who I feel will come through with enough chances), Valdez, Willie Harris, and old rookie Mike Contanzo. We've built up our pitching to the point where there isn't room for Bray or Masset (who do you send to triple A with four bullpen pitchers ERA's lower than 2.60?). Big old problem created by the GM. It will be interesting how Walt solves it. Pitching is good, but scoring runs is part of the game, too.

edabbs44
06-01-2012, 07:13 AM
True. While we assembled a world class pitching staff, we forgot the bench. Instead, the Reds gave contracts to people no one wanted in the form of Ryan Ludwick (who I feel will come through with enough chances), Valdez, Willie Harris, and old rookie Mike Contanzo. We've built up our pitching to the point where there isn't room for Bray or Masset (who do you send to triple A with four bullpen pitchers ERA's lower than 2.60?). Big old problem created by the GM. It will be interesting how Walt solves it. Pitching is good, but scoring runs is part of the game, too.

That's a pretty cool big old problem to have. They are a first place team with a top 5 pitching staff and a middle of the pack offense. Watch Walt spin some of that big old problem into more positive for the team.

And, I repeat, this team is in first place. It blows my mind how negative people are when they don't really have a reason to be. Outside of Texas and LA, would it be the same if we were fans of any other team? My guess is yes.