PDA

View Full Version : Hannigan in LF on his rest days...



bellhead
05-28-2012, 07:20 PM
Can the guy play an adequate LF? He's an upgrade over everybody else out there. Can he play 3rd?

lollipopcurve
05-28-2012, 07:23 PM
I'd ask this question about Mesoraco instead. He's on the bench more than Hanigan, and he may have the athleticism to play in the field.

traderumor
05-28-2012, 07:25 PM
If Hannigan hit like Johnny Bench, maybe.

And Heisey is starting to perform, he's a few extra base hits from passing Hanigan's numbers.

mth123
05-28-2012, 07:28 PM
I'd ask this question about Mesoraco instead. He's on the bench more than Hanigan, and he may have the athleticism to play in the field.

Yep.

bellhead
05-28-2012, 07:32 PM
The reason I'm saying this is his OBP is now at .383.

Hannigan
Stubbs
Votto

Even if Stubbs hits a ground ball odds are they don't turn a DP because of his speed so this gives Votto an excellent chance of acutually having some one on base for him.

westofyou
05-28-2012, 07:32 PM
Catchers actually need to rest though

jojo
05-28-2012, 07:33 PM
Mes's off days are probably still pretty full with "catcher stuff"....

mth123
05-28-2012, 07:51 PM
Mes's off days are probably still pretty full with "catcher stuff"....

Sure but its not like its never been done before. I'm guessing he'll put in any extra work needed to get 3 or 4 more starts every 10 days. Reds can call up a 3rd catcher to help. Its not like the current bench guys have so much value that anyone will miss them if they cut one loose to make room.

westofyou
05-28-2012, 07:59 PM
Sure but its not like its never been done before. I'm guessing he'll put in any extra work needed to get 3 or 4 more starts every 10 days. Reds can call up a 3rd catcher to help. Its not like the current bench guys have so much value that anyone will miss them if they cut one loose to make room.

My guess is the guys they do it with are generally moved from the dish, Surhoff, type of guys

Do we value him as a hitter more than a catcher? Berra started out with a lot of OF time, Elston Howard logged time out there, Bench as well

In retrospect the Reds could have allowed JB some down time he aged fast after 30

mth123
05-28-2012, 08:10 PM
My guess is the guys they do it with are generally moved from the dish, Surhoff, type of guys

Do we value him as a hitter more than a catcher? Berra started out with a lot of OF time, Elston Howard logged time out there, Bench as well

In retrospect the Reds could have allowed JB some down time he aged fast after 30

Gary Carter as well. 2 Days catching, 2 days in the OF and 1 day off. It won't devalue him or hurt his development and its still plenty of rest. Of course, it could help his bat develop while upgrading the line-up. Meanwhie he takes a year or two to learn the league before taking over full time behind the plate.

The only down side is if he doesn't hit or really can't play out there. If that happens, go back to the current arrangement that has one of our top 5 position assets wasting away.

In Bench's case, maybe more time in the OF would have helped. He caught 154 games (137 entire games) as a rookie. I don't think OF play is what wore him out.

bellhead
05-28-2012, 08:16 PM
Mes. platooning in LF with Hannigan is an upgrade to what we have. Mes. is projected as a 25+ HR guy, he hit over 30 last year...

PuffyPig
05-28-2012, 08:33 PM
Mes. platooning in LF with Hannigan is an upgrade to what we have. Mes. is projected as a 25+ HR guy, he hit over 30 last year...

He had 17 last year, and is hitting less than our current LF's.

GADawg
05-28-2012, 08:44 PM
how 'bout hanigan hitting 2nd on Cozart's off days...or even on each of his starts

Chip R
05-28-2012, 09:02 PM
"Y'know, Les, Pete Rose played left field."

klw
05-28-2012, 09:10 PM
"Y'know, Les, Pete Rose played left field."

Well Bench actually played in the OF a fair amount in the early 70's. He even started 2 games in CF in 70.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/b/benchjo01.shtml

bellhead
05-28-2012, 09:51 PM
He had 17 last year, and is hitting less than our current LF's.

Mes. had 26 homers the 2010 season.. Last year was still good..

G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO BA OBP SLG OPS
120 436 60 126 36 2 15 71 52 83 .289 .371 .484 .855

The OBP of .371 indicates he will be a great 4 hole guy behind Votto and in front of Bruce in a few years.

PuffyPig
05-28-2012, 10:26 PM
Mes. had 26 homers the 2010 season.. Last year was still good..

G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO BA OBP SLG OPS
120 436 60 126 36 2 15 71 52 83 .289 .371 .484 .855

The OBP of .371 indicates he will be a great 4 hole guy behind Votto and in front of Bruce in a few years.

I was simply replying to your post which said he had 30+ HR's last year.

"In a few years" is not "now".

Chip R
05-28-2012, 10:51 PM
Well Bench actually played in the OF a fair amount in the early 70's. He even started 2 games in CF in 70.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/b/benchjo01.shtml (http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/b/benchjo01.shtml)

So let's wait until he has mastered the catching position as Bench did before moving him to an unfamiliar position.

Degenerate39
05-28-2012, 11:05 PM
Hanigan Hanigan Hanigan

Tom Servo
05-28-2012, 11:17 PM
Hanigan Hanigan Hanigan
Hannigann

VR
05-28-2012, 11:56 PM
Catchers actually need to rest though

Yep.

Find Hanny some ab's in the 2 hole. Pick up LH catcher, carry 3, and have the ability to PH Hanny or Mes daily.

But Hanny in left? I pulled a hammy just thinking about that.

Caveat Emperor
05-29-2012, 01:18 AM
Hell, let Mike Leake log some time out there too.

_Sir_Charles_
05-29-2012, 08:17 AM
Well, the more I've thought about this the more I'm coming around to this....
the 2 hole is NOT a problem. It hasn't been all year long.

The problems are leadoff and cleanup.

And Phillips is part of both answers. I think people have forgotten how effective Brandon was leading off. MOVE HIM BACK THERE!!! And for the love of Pete, get him OUT of cleanup.

Once that's done, we just have to address the cleanup situation. That goes hand in hand with the 5 hole obviously. Bruce in the 4 hole makes the most sense...but it's becoming oh so obvious that Dusty isn't going to do that (even though he did it last year and it was effective...?!?). So, what do we do with the 4 hole if it's not Bruce? This is the question we need to be asking, not the 1 or 2 slot.

I've mentioned this before and pretty much got laughed at I assume because it goes against conventional thinking, but I'd slot the catchers in the 4 hole. You've got power potential in Mesoraco and hopefully a long-time "traditional" type of cleanup hitter. And you've got very solid OBP and contact skills in Hanigan. Sure, Hanny doesn't have the power, but you've got power behind him and in front of him...do you HAVE to have a power bat hitting 4th? Isn't it JUST as important to not make an out there?

So, that's my solution. Phillips leading off, Cozart/Stubbs filling the 2 hole as they have admirably all season long, and Hanigan/Mesoraco in the 4 slot. You get better OBP near the top of the lineup, you have Phillips in a much more productive place and you get better balance overall IMO.

oneupper
05-29-2012, 08:32 AM
And Phillips is part of both answers. I think people have forgotten how effective Brandon was leading off. MOVE HIM BACK THERE!!! And for the love of Pete, get him OUT of cleanup.



If we revisit 2010, the team improved once Phillips was moved out of cleanup and into the leadoff spot (and Stubbs down in the order, 7 or 8).

Dusty did it once. Why not again? As for cleanup, its not quite as important once Phillips is moved. Heisey/Ludwick could hit there (heck, Gomes was used there). Mesoraco, too. Bruce, of course (it HAS been done).

The other proposals (Hanigan to a top spot, etc,) are worthy, but probably too radical for our manager.
Just getting Brandon out of cleanup would be a great starter.

bucksfan2
05-29-2012, 09:59 AM
Hanigan tend to break down as the season goes along. Moving him to LF and giving him fewer days off would probably expediate that break down. Also he is one of the slowest Reds, what makes anyone think he can play LF?

CesarGeronimo
05-29-2012, 10:55 AM
Well, the more I've thought about this the more I'm coming around to this....
the 2 hole is NOT a problem. It hasn't been all year long.

The problems are leadoff and cleanup.

And Phillips is part of both answers. I think people have forgotten how effective Brandon was leading off. MOVE HIM BACK THERE!!! And for the love of Pete, get him OUT of cleanup.

Once that's done, we just have to address the cleanup situation. That goes hand in hand with the 5 hole obviously. Bruce in the 4 hole makes the most sense...but it's becoming oh so obvious that Dusty isn't going to do that (even though he did it last year and it was effective...?!?). So, what do we do with the 4 hole if it's not Bruce? This is the question we need to be asking, not the 1 or 2 slot.

I've mentioned this before and pretty much got laughed at I assume because it goes against conventional thinking, but I'd slot the catchers in the 4 hole. You've got power potential in Mesoraco and hopefully a long-time "traditional" type of cleanup hitter. And you've got very solid OBP and contact skills in Hanigan. Sure, Hanny doesn't have the power, but you've got power behind him and in front of him...do you HAVE to have a power bat hitting 4th? Isn't it JUST as important to not make an out there?

So, that's my solution. Phillips leading off, Cozart/Stubbs filling the 2 hole as they have admirably all season long, and Hanigan/Mesoraco in the 4 slot. You get better OBP near the top of the lineup, you have Phillips in a much more productive place and you get better balance overall IMO.

I'd also point out that Chris Heisey may work out better in left field than people have been thinking. Over the past 30 days - 24 games and 75 ABs - he's hitting .320 with an OBP of .346 and OPS of .786. He hit his first home run over the weekend and if he can start getting a few more, he could be pretty decent in the No. 6 or 7 spot. He also isn't striking out as much this season so far; 24 Ks in 116 ABs = 20.7%; last year 78Ks in 279 ABs = 28.0%.

It's a small sample, of course, but it will help a lot if the Reds can at least get league average type of offensive production from left field, rather than the dismal production they were getting at the start of the season.

RedlegJake
05-29-2012, 11:12 AM
Heisey and Ludwick both shpuld get better in left, both started slow and unlucky with low BABIP and sluggish starts that belie what they are capable of. Heisey especially so. I wouldn't call left solved by any means, just not as dismal as it seemed early on. I'd still look for a solution full term so Heisey could be properly utilized as a great 4th outfielder.

The leadoff spot is the real problem as I see it. I'd put Mes in the cleanup spot when he starts right now. Why not? He's past the point where its any real additional pressure. Let BP go back to leadoff fulltime - he's the best the Reds have at the moment. Now, tongue fimrly in cheek, I'd suggest letting Stubbs hitting cleanup. He insists on thinking he is Jimmy Foxx anyway, instead of Ty Cobb, so why not let him have at it?

traderumor
05-29-2012, 12:24 PM
Heisey and Ludwick both shpuld get better in left, both started slow and unlucky with low BABIP and sluggish starts that belie what they are capable of. Heisey especially so. I wouldn't call left solved by any means, just not as dismal as it seemed early on. I'd still look for a solution full term so Heisey could be properly utilized as a great 4th outfielder.

The leadoff spot is the real problem as I see it. I'd put Mes in the cleanup spot when he starts right now. Why not? He's past the point where its any real additional pressure. Let BP go back to leadoff fulltime - he's the best the Reds have at the moment. Now, tongue fimrly in cheek, I'd suggest letting Stubbs hitting cleanup. He insists on thinking he is Jimmy Foxx anyway, instead of Ty Cobb, so why not let him have at it?He doesn't swing for the fences, he swings and misses a lot. The power he generates is natural, not forced. Ty Cobb? Is anyone Ty Cobb? What part of his game should he be modeling? Being a hit machine? A .400 BA? Sliding with cleats up?

jhu1321
05-29-2012, 12:39 PM
I love what Hanigan brings to the team as a catcher and hitter but cannot imagine the carnage of him playing LF.

bellhead
05-29-2012, 12:49 PM
What would work better is if Mes is given the full time catching duties and Hannigan is moved to LF and platoons there. He gives Mes a day off when needed...

Sea Ray
05-29-2012, 01:24 PM
Mes. platooning in LF with Hannigan is an upgrade to what we have. Mes. is projected as a 25+ HR guy, he hit over 30 last year...

Catchers don't platoon on their off days for many reasons. Not gonna happen nor should it

RedlegJake
05-29-2012, 01:50 PM
Catchers don't platoon on their off days for many reasons. Not gonna happen nor should it

Catchers have platooned in the past, many times. Hanigan is older and less likely a candidate for a lot of reasons like he's overall less athletic but Mes could handle it just fine. The main reason I'd be against it is why give him something else to worry about this year while he's still learning? Throwing a new position at a rookie who is still learning his catching duties seems asking too much.

Sea Ray
05-29-2012, 02:29 PM
Catchers have platooned in the past, many times. Hanigan is older and less likely a candidate for a lot of reasons like he's overall less athletic but Mes could handle it just fine. The main reason I'd be against it is why give him something else to worry about this year while he's still learning? Throwing a new position at a rookie who is still learning his catching duties seems asking too much.

Catchers platooning on off days is very rare especially on teams with only two catchers. What percentage of catchers are doing this now?

PuffyPig
05-29-2012, 02:38 PM
It's unlikley we would platoon Hannigan or Mesoracco in LF becuase they can't play the position.

Sea Ray
05-29-2012, 02:40 PM
It's unlikley we would platoon Hannigan or Mesoracco in LF becuase they can't play the position.

Indeed and that's largely the case with catchers hence the lack of seeing this sort of thing around MLB

RedlegJake
05-29-2012, 04:27 PM
That's due to the end of the three catcher era in baseball. Today catchers just catch. You don't want Mes or Hanigan platooning because they have to be ready to catch if something happens. I'm well aware of that. In order to platoon the Reds would have to carry a third catcher, like teams did before they started carrying 12 pitchers. I was pointing out it wasn't unheard of and was in fact common in the past. With today's roster makeup it is impossible or at least really shortsighted unless you have a third catcher stashed somewhere. Just another way the game has changed. Most previous catchers, at least the non-starters, played 1B or left or sometimes 3B so they could get in the lineup. Once the squads went to 2 catchers that went out the window.