PDA

View Full Version : Mt Healthy high school withholding a diploma because a family cheered at graduation



dougdirt
06-07-2012, 07:44 PM
You can read more about it here: http://www.wcpo.com/dpp/news/local_news/mt-healthy-schools-students-family-should-do-the-right-thing

Essentially though, Mt Healthy schools are withholding the diploma of a student because his family 'cheered to long' at his graduation. In order to be given his diploma, the superintendent is trying to require the student and/or his family members to do 20 hours of community service.

Sorry, but this is a power trip of epic proportions by the superintendent. Punishing the kid for something that he did not do, then attempting to require non-students to do something? What a joke. You aren't the law, lady. Kick them out of the graduation, sure. Attempt to require them to do community service? You are crazy.

Yachtzee
06-07-2012, 08:44 PM
You can read more about it here: http://www.wcpo.com/dpp/news/local_news/mt-healthy-schools-students-family-should-do-the-right-thing

Essentially though, Mt Healthy schools are withholding the diploma of a student because his family 'cheered to long' at his graduation. In order to be given his diploma, the superintendent is trying to require the student and/or his family members to do 20 hours of community service.

Sorry, but this is a power trip of epic proportions by the superintendent. Punishing the kid for something that he did not do, then attempting to require non-students to do something? What a joke. You aren't the law, lady. Kick them out of the graduation, sure. Attempt to require them to do community service? You are crazy.

Well, its not like he hasn't graduated. The diploma is merely something nice to stick on a wall. I understand the school's point. They need to keep things moving and its not fair to the other kids if their name gets drowned out by people who can't hold their cheers till the end. They don't have to give anyone a diploma. It's a piece of paper. The mom seemed like the combative type. I'm not sure she would have gone quietly if they had asked her to leave.

I graduated high school in 1989 and they warned us that excessive cheering during the walk or any other disruptive behavior from family could result in our diploma being withheld. Not like this is something new.

dougdirt
06-07-2012, 08:47 PM
Well, its not like he hasn't graduated. The diploma is merely something nice to stick on a wall. I understand the school's point. They need to keep things moving and its not fair to the other kids if their name gets drowned out by people who can't hold their cheers till the end. They don't have to give anyone a diploma. It's a piece of paper. The mom seemed like the combative type. I'm not sure she would have gone quietly if they had asked her to leave.

I graduated high school in 1989 and they warned us that excessive cheering during the walk or any other disruptive behavior from family could result in our diploma being withheld. Not like this is something new.

No, it isn't something new. But it is still something very stupid. Yes, his family should have shut it up until the end. But HE earned that piece of paper. For the actions of his family, HE is being punished.

Larry Schuler
06-07-2012, 09:32 PM
When you're a frazzled school employee sometimes all that matters is that SOMEONE gets punished.

camisadelgolf
06-07-2012, 11:21 PM
At my high school graduation, there were families blaring off air horns and ringing cowbells and whatnot.

dougdirt
06-07-2012, 11:38 PM
At my high school graduation, there were families blaring off air horns and ringing cowbells and whatnot.

Man, the soup kitchen must have been stocked with people that next week with all of that community service, right?

Yachtzee
06-08-2012, 12:06 AM
My school was pretty strict for our graduation. The previous graduation resulted in the school paying to recarpet EJ Thomas Hall in Akron because people went crazy with silly string. My class was also involved in some major pranks, to the point where they threatened cancelling the ceremony altogether if any shenanigans occured. Needless to say, everyone and their families were on there best behavior.

camisadelgolf
06-08-2012, 03:01 PM
Man, the soup kitchen must have been stocked with people that next week with all of that community service, right?
Something like that. Those degenerates with loud supporters ended up becoming our nation's future.

westofyou
06-08-2012, 03:12 PM
Man talk about uptight, time limit, rules, waiver, punishment, community service

All generated from something that should cause joy, celebration... Instead we get autocratic rules and dogmatic paternalism

hebroncougar
06-08-2012, 05:23 PM
How do they know who was doing the cheering? What if most of the cheering was done by "other" student's families who he was friends with? This is beyond absurd.

Roy Tucker
06-08-2012, 05:54 PM
I've sat through 3 of my children's graduation commencements from Mason HS. Mason is now the largest high school in Ohio so you sit through 600+ names getting announced. That's a lot of kids and it takes a while. I think it took around 3 hours.

They give each kid a brief amount of time for parents, friends, etc. to go "woooooo!! yaaaaaahhh <name> wooooo!!!". Enough time for the burst of joy, yay rah, but then its on to the next kid. If they let everyone gor bonkers for as long as they wanted, we would have been there for 8 hours.

Believe me, its enough time unless you like to go on and on and dance and whoop and run up and down the aisles like an idiot. And people would start to try to outdo one another, have choreographed cheers, and make it a big whoop dee doo. I think its best to keep it brief and keep it moving. If you want to celebrate, go have a party and youi can yell and set off fireworks and go crazy to your hearts content.

We also had to sign a form (parents and students) that we understood the rules so it was no surprise.

Actually, the ones I feel for are the kids where their name is announced and its crickets. Nothing, nil, nada.

edabbs44
06-08-2012, 09:37 PM
I just found my HS and college diplomas in a box when we were moving. I had no idea where they were.

Cheer up Anthony, it isn't the end of the world. If you feel that strongly about it, tell the principal to shove it and move on. Your lack of diploma will not hurt your future employment or college plans.

Sea Ray
06-09-2012, 11:24 AM
I've sat through 3 of my children's graduation commencements from Mason HS. Mason is now the largest high school in Ohio so you sit through 600+ names getting announced. That's a lot of kids and it takes a while. I think it took around 3 hours.



That's interesting Roy. I didn't realize Mason's size had reached such proportions.

Someone better update Wiki:


With approximately 2,800 students enrolled annually, Oak Hills is the largest of the ten public high schools within the Greater Miami Conference.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oak_Hills_High_School

oneupper
06-09-2012, 11:36 AM
Some people are incapable of respecting the rights of others, even when its put in writing and/or in the law. There has to be sanctions because these people don't get what "the right thing" is.
Good for this principal to stand on his principles.

This Monday my daughter graduated from HS in a ceremony held at MARLINS STADIUM. One thousand kids in the graduating class and Joe Biden in attendance.
And YEP, there were a few "excessive cheerers" who may (depending on the seating) have spoiled the next parent's chance to hear their kid's name called, because they weren't stopping that line for anyone.

Oh, and if I'm researching this kid for a job and this article comes up. Guess what?
He's not getting hired.

dougdirt
06-09-2012, 12:35 PM
Some people are incapable of respecting the rights of others, even when its put in writing and/or in the law. There has to be sanctions because these people don't get what "the right thing" is.
Good for this principal to stand on his principles.

This Monday my daughter graduated from HS in a ceremony held at MARLINS STADIUM. One thousand kids in the graduating class and Joe Biden in attendance.
And YEP, there were a few "excessive cheerers" who may (depending on the seating) have spoiled the next parent's chance to hear their kid's name called, because they weren't stopping that line for anyone.

Oh, and if I'm researching this kid for a job and this article comes up. Guess what?
He's not getting hired.

So you are ok with punishing someone for the problems that were caused by others? And you are ok with not hiring someone because of something that their family members did, but that they weren't a part of?

I wouldn't want to work for you. Talk about no job security. Bob over in accounting messes up and I lose my job in IT over it? No thanks.

Roy Tucker
06-09-2012, 01:13 PM
That's interesting Roy. I didn't realize Mason's size had reached such proportions.

Someone better update Wiki:




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oak_Hills_High_School

Weelllll, it was the largest a year or 2 ago. It's slipped to #4 now.

http://high-schools.com/report/oh/public-school-enrollment-rank-in-ohio.html

marcshoe
06-09-2012, 01:23 PM
A high school administrator acting like a despot? I'm shocked! Shocked, I tell you!

(if any principals I would like to interview with are reading this, I'm not talking about you. You are the very picture of fairness.)

Roy Tucker
06-09-2012, 01:23 PM
So you are ok with punishing someone for the problems that were caused by others? And you are ok with not hiring someone because of something that their family members did, but that they weren't a part of?

I wouldn't want to work for you. Talk about no job security. Bob over in accounting messes up and I lose my job in IT over it? No thanks.

I'm with oneupper on this. It's called decency and respect and respecting other people and knowing how not to act like a total clown and drown out some other kids name who has just the same right you do to heard and recognized. And won't be because your friends and family don't know how to act in a public place.

And its not that there are random gangs of unknown people spontaneously cheering for every 12th kid. It is the student's family and friends. And the student and the family are well-advised that *they* are responsible for their behavior. And if their behavior is out of bounds, there are consequences. So Mom, Dad, and kid, talk to whoever is going to be there for you and make sure they know what it OK because *you* will be held accountable. This isn't a difficult concept.

oneupper
06-09-2012, 01:27 PM
So you are ok with punishing someone for the problems that were caused by others? And you are ok with not hiring someone because of something that their family members did, but that they weren't a part of?


It happens, doug. Student got and signed the same letter as all the others, but either didn't read it, or didn't tell his family about it or whatever excuse. Afterwards doesn't own up to it and does his CS (like the other offenders), but goes crying to mommy and the press.
Tells me a lot about this kid's character or lack thereof.

Oh and people take falls for what others do ALL the time. It's unfair when the responsibility/consequences aren't that clear from the beginning.
Not the case this time.

dougdirt
06-09-2012, 04:47 PM
It happens, doug. Student got and signed the same letter as all the others, but either didn't read it, or didn't tell his family about it or whatever excuse. Afterwards doesn't own up to it and does his CS (like the other offenders), but goes crying to mommy and the press.
Tells me a lot about this kid's character or lack thereof.

Oh and people take falls for what others do ALL the time. It's unfair when the responsibility/consequences aren't that clear from the beginning.
Not the case this time.

So it is ok to expect someone else to control the actions of others and when they can't, punish them for it?

It is unfair either way. You can't expect an 18 year old to be able to control the actions of people hundreds of feet away from him.

Yes, it sucks that some people could potentially ruin it for others. But by punishing the wrong party doesn't do anyone any good.

There isn't an easy solution here, but punishing the student for the actions of his family/friends surely isn't the right solution.

dougdirt
06-09-2012, 04:51 PM
I'm with oneupper on this. It's called decency and respect and respecting other people and knowing how not to act like a total clown and drown out some other kids name who has just the same right you do to heard and recognized. And won't be because your friends and family don't know how to act in a public place.
Notice how you didn't say how the kid being punished did anything?



And its not that there are random gangs of unknown people spontaneously cheering for every 12th kid. It is the student's family and friends. And the student and the family are well-advised that *they* are responsible for their behavior. And if their behavior is out of bounds, there are consequences. So Mom, Dad, and kid, talk to whoever is going to be there for you and make sure they know what it OK because *you* will be held accountable. This isn't a difficult concept.

Yes, it is a difficult concept because you are punishing an 18 year old for being unable to control what people hundreds of feet away from him are doing.

Larry Schuler
06-09-2012, 04:59 PM
It's about RESPECT and DECENCY and LIBERTY and LIFE EVERLASTING, Doug!!! Are you against those things? If not, then rally with us for WHAT IS GOOD and take meaningless diplomas away from kids and theoretical job opportunities from fictional applicants!!!

hebroncougar
06-09-2012, 05:23 PM
Some people are incapable of respecting the rights of others, even when its put in writing and/or in the law. There has to be sanctions because these people don't get what "the right thing" is.
Good for this principal to stand on his principles.

This Monday my daughter graduated from HS in a ceremony held at MARLINS STADIUM. One thousand kids in the graduating class and Joe Biden in attendance.
And YEP, there were a few "excessive cheerers" who may (depending on the seating) have spoiled the next parent's chance to hear their kid's name called, because they weren't stopping that line for anyone.

Oh, and if I'm researching this kid for a job and this article comes up. Guess what?
He's not getting hired.

That's ridiculous. Tell me exactly what THE KID did. I've taught and coached high school kids for over 20 years. There is no way you can hold a 17 or 18 year old kid responsible for what someone in an audience does or says. It wouldn't stand up anywhere else except for some school administrator on a power trip. So you're not going to hire the kid based on what?

hebroncougar
06-09-2012, 05:27 PM
It happens, doug. Student got and signed the same letter as all the others, but either didn't read it, or didn't tell his family about it or whatever excuse. Afterwards doesn't own up to it and does his CS (like the other offenders), but goes crying to mommy and the press.
Tells me a lot about this kid's character or lack thereof.

Oh and people take falls for what others do ALL the time. It's unfair when the responsibility/consequences aren't that clear from the beginning.
Not the case this time.

Or he told the party, and they chose to not obey the rules. So, you punish the kid? If we all judged "character" on how 17 or 18 year old kids parents act, we're in trouble. I really think your should rethink that.

Yachtzee
06-09-2012, 06:58 PM
Or he told the party, and they chose to not obey the rules. So, you punish the kid? If we all judged "character" on how 17 or 18 year old kids parents act, we're in trouble. I really think your should rethink that.

I think his bigger point is that the kid and his family ran crying to the press. Plenty of employers would be skittish about hiring someone who runs to the press about a perceived wrong. Maybe if he and his parents had quietly gone to the school, apologized for the disruption, the school would have done away with the community service and handed him his diploma. By going to the press, they probably made the school dig in its heels. And there are plenty of instances in life where people are held responsible for the actions of those they bring to the party.

dougdirt
06-09-2012, 07:10 PM
I think his bigger point is that the kid and his family ran crying to the press. Plenty of employers would be skittish about hiring someone who runs to the press about a perceived wrong. Maybe if he and his parents had quietly gone to the school, apologized for the disruption, the school would have done away with the community service and handed him his diploma. By going to the press, they probably made the school dig in its heels. And there are plenty of instances in life where people are held responsible for the actions of those they bring to the party.

Did he go to the press? Or did his parents? Or did his friends?

marcshoe
06-09-2012, 07:20 PM
Too many people keep quiet about this kind of small-minded authoritarianism. If this type of nonsense isn't made public, it will continue. People need to see where the bullying problem starts.

Not that I have strong opinions about this or anything.


I've seen too many school administrators who think they have absolute power and do all they can to dominate the lives of their students and employees. It's time we realized that a public school must not be the private territory of a two-bit dictator. Perhaps when these administrators start trying to increase their territory by dictating the behaviors of adults, they will get taken down a notch.

Schools are not businesses and the students are not employees. The focus needs to be on the development of the student, not on establishing a top-down structure.

paintmered
06-09-2012, 08:23 PM
It sounds like everyone needs to get over themselves in this situation.

oneupper
06-09-2012, 09:55 PM
Or he told the party, and they chose to not obey the rules. So, you punish the kid? If we all judged "character" on how 17 or 18 year old kids parents act, we're in trouble. I really think your should rethink that.

The kid and his parents signed a piece of paper assuming responsibility for the behavior of his barrackers (supporters). His supporters didn't behave as expected. A sanction was imposed (hardly a punishment...geez some community hours he probably could get helping his football coach). The sanction had been previously advised in the letter.

The actions of his parents are not the issue, but the kid's actions and response leave much to be desired.
Every explanation I can think of does not reflect well on the kid.

Here are a few:

1. Didn't read what he signed. (Do I have to explain this?)
2. Read but didn't take action (Mom said she didn't know about it),

Traci Cornist says if she signed it, she never read it.
3. Read but didn't understand.
4. Read, understood but in the end failed to accept responsibility for what he signed, for whatever reason (we can speculate about that too)
5. Some combination of the above.

I'm not a terrible person and I understand that the kid didn't do anything heinous. But the way things unfolded does not, IMO, reflect well on him.

No, I would not hire him (well maybe if the alternatives were worse). The kids who owned up to their parents' exuberance and did some service, no problem.

Larry Schuler
06-09-2012, 10:12 PM
"So, Mr. Reynolds, your resume looks great however I have to ask...did you ever not own up to a trivial punishment as a kid?"
"Excuse me?"
"Don't pusssyfoot, son! You heard me! Did you chop down a cherry tree and think momma and poppa'd never find out?! Or did you man up and do what our nation's forefather did so bravely before you?! I'm looking for a George Washington to fix our Internet network! Not a jellyfish!!! What are YOU, boy?!"
"...is this for real?"

oneupper
06-09-2012, 10:20 PM
"So, Mr. Reynolds, your resume looks great however I have to ask...did you ever not own up to a trivial punishment as a kid?"
"Excuse me?"
"Don't pusssyfoot, son! You heard me! Did you chop down a cherry tree and think momma and poppa'd never find out?! Or did you man up and do what our nation's forefather did so bravely before you?! I'm looking for a George Washington to fix our Internet network! Not a jellyfish!!! What are YOU, boy?!"
"...is this for real?"

You must be a troublemaker, Mr. Schuler.
Do you know what we do to troublemakers around here? :D

hebroncougar
06-09-2012, 10:43 PM
The kid and his parents signed a piece of paper assuming responsibility for the behavior of his barrackers (supporters). His supporters didn't behave as expected. A sanction was imposed (hardly a punishment...geez some community hours he probably could get helping his football coach). The sanction had been previously advised in the letter.

The actions of his parents are not the issue, but the kid's actions and response leave much to be desired.
Every explanation I can think of does not reflect well on the kid.

Here are a few:

1. Didn't read what he signed. (Do I have to explain this?)
2. Read but didn't take action (Mom said she didn't know about it),

3. Read but didn't understand.
4. Read, understood but in the end failed to accept responsibility for what he signed, for whatever reason (we can speculate about that too)
5. Some combination of the above.

I'm not a terrible person and I understand that the kid didn't do anything heinous. But the way things unfolded does not, IMO, reflect well on him.

No, I would not hire him (well maybe if the alternatives were worse). The kids who owned up to their parents' exuberance and did some service, no problem.

Here's hoping your aren't in HR then. Holding a 17 or 18 year old kid responsible for his parent actions, regardless of what piece of paper they signed is ludicrous. If the administration had any guts, they'd have the adults removed from the graduation ceremony, if it was such a disturbance. But since that would take, you know, guts, and them standing up to someone that they don't have any power over, they don't do that. They take the back door, and try to bully a kid around. Hell, I give the kid credit for making it public. I'd love for it to get taken to court and have the ass of an administrator try and explain it.

Here's where she loses:

At no time, Handler says, did the students themselves get out of hand.

"The kids were angelic," she said.

Read more: http://www.wcpo.com/dpp/news/local_news/mt-healthy-schools-students-family-should-do-the-right-thing#ixzz1xLoH4iO4


So, I'm punishing kids for being "angelic".

Yachtzee
06-09-2012, 11:18 PM
Here's hoping your aren't in HR then. Holding a 17 or 18 year old kid responsible for his parent actions, regardless of what piece of paper they signed is ludicrous. If the administration had any guts, they'd have the adults removed from the graduation ceremony, if it was such a disturbance. But since that would take, you know, guts, and them standing up to someone that they don't have any power over, they don't do that. They take the back door, and try to bully a kid around. Hell, I give the kid credit for making it public. I'd love for it to get taken to court and have the ass of an administrator try and explain it.

Here's where she loses:

At no time, Handler says, did the students themselves get out of hand.

"The kids were angelic," she said.

Read more: http://www.wcpo.com/dpp/news/local_news/mt-healthy-schools-students-family-should-do-the-right-thing#ixzz1xLoH4iO4


So, I'm punishing kids for being "angelic".

A lawsuit would probably get thrown out without a second thought. Schools are given quite a bit of leeway when it comes to making rules for school functions, and students don't have a constitutional right to a piece of paper. He may be entitled to be graduated by meeting the school graduation requirements, but the physical diploma is merely a nice keepsake.

I get the feeling the school was in a no win situation. Throw out the parents and family and at best they go to the press about how they were wronged at their son's graduation. At worst, they refuse to leave, causing a bigger disruption and requiring them to be forceably removed. Have you ever dealt with parents of students? Most are pretty reasonable, but quite a few are parents in name only and blame every little problem facing their precious on the school. And if you appease these parents who fail to abide by the rules, you end up catching hell from the parents and students who did abide by the rules. There's no way you can please everyone.

hebroncougar
06-10-2012, 12:24 AM
A lawsuit would probably get thrown out without a second thought. Schools are given quite a bit of leeway when it comes to making rules for school functions, and students don't have a constitutional right to a piece of paper. He may be entitled to be graduated by meeting the school graduation requirements, but the physical diploma is merely a nice keepsake.

I get the feeling the school was in a no win situation. Throw out the parents and family and at best they go to the press about how they were wronged at their son's graduation. At worst, they refuse to leave, causing a bigger disruption and requiring them to be forceably removed. Have you ever dealt with parents of students? Most are pretty reasonable, but quite a few are parents in name only and blame every little problem facing their precious on the school. And if you appease these parents who fail to abide by the rules, you end up catching hell from the parents and students who did abide by the rules. There's no way you can please everyone.

Yep, I've coached varsity sports for 20 years, and I've been on the School Base Decision Making Council at the school I teach at for 10 years. One of the first things you learn, is to not make stupid rules. And this is a stupid rule that forces you into a corner. Let me ask you this. Did the policy solve the perceived problem (the noise) at graduation? Or did it, in the end make things worse? It made it worse. The school looks like, at best, a bunch of morons. At worst, they look like bullies. They stuck their neck out on a policy that is ignorant. It really is no different than if I, as a varsity coach, told my players.........hey, if your parents argue with a referee or umpire, and cause a ruckus in the stands, you have to do community service to stay on the team, or keep your playing time. And you have to sign a piece of paper that says so. Is that enforceable? Is that going to stand up? No, it's not. It's flat out stupid. Again, the kid did nothing wrong. You going to punish teachers that clapped for the kid? You going to punish neighbors? You going to punish people that don't like the kid, but cheered for him because they saw the paper their kid had to sign? It's a flat out stupid policy. And to top it off..........the so called "excessive cheering" is on video. And it's not excessive. I think some policy makers have short man's disease or something similar.

Razor Shines
06-10-2012, 12:47 AM
You must be a troublemaker, Mr. Schuler.
Do you know what we do to troublemakers around here? :D

I guess baseclogger can take down his "RIP The Baumer".


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Roy Tucker
06-10-2012, 01:18 AM
So, now we're getting cops in graduation to pull families out for making noise?

I thought explaining the policy beforehand and getting acknowlegement for the the involved parties seemed like a pretty good way to appeal to people's good nature and say "hey, we want to make this civil, can we all agree to be adults?". But apparently this is fascist behavior.

So how exactly are you supposed to handle this kind of situation?

dougdirt
06-10-2012, 01:25 AM
So, now we're getting cops in graduation to pull families out for making noise?

I thought explaining the policy beforehand and getting acknowlegement for the the involved parties seemed like a pretty good way to appeal to people's good nature and say "hey, we want to make this civil, can we all agree to be adults?". But apparently this is fascist behavior.

So how exactly are you supposed to handle this kind of situation?

Give everyone in the crowd headphones.

757690
06-10-2012, 01:27 AM
So, now we're getting cops in graduation to pull families out for making noise?

I thought explaining the policy beforehand and getting acknowlegement for the the involved parties seemed like a pretty good way to appeal to people's good nature and say "hey, we want to make this civil, can we all agree to be adults?". But apparently this is fascist behavior.

So how exactly are you supposed to handle this kind of situation?

Let them cheer. It's a once in a lifetime experience, marking an eccomplishment that is every parents dream. If they cheer too long, wait. Who cares how long the ceremony lasts?

Considering how many students these days aren't graduating, I would think a school would encourage parents to expresss their excitement at their child graduating.

Yachtzee
06-10-2012, 03:04 AM
Let them cheer. It's a once in a lifetime experience, marking an eccomplishment that is every parents dream. If they cheer too long, wait. Who cares how long the ceremony lasts?

Considering how many students these days aren't graduating, I would think a school would encourage parents to expresss their excitement at their child graduating.

The parents do get to cheer, at the end of the walk, with all the other parents.

I suspect you haven't been to too many graduation ceremonies, and certainly haven't been there with elderly relatives. I went to a large high school, a large university, and law school, and have family members who have done the same. I also taught for a while and went through graduation ceremonies for my students every semester for 2 years. While the worst I have to deal with is falling asleep, long graduation ceremonies are taxing on elderly grandparents and family members with health issues (such as diabetics), especially when the venue for the ceremony relies on bleachers or folding chairs for their seating. And if it's outside on a hot day, people get dehydrated. Now imagine you've got a 600 student class and you let everyone clap and cheer as much as they want. You're now dragging out a 2 hour ceremony to 3-4 hours, a real test of endurance. Do you think school want to have an entire paramedics department stationed at the ready to deal with people passing out? Is it fair to make grandparents and family members with potential health problems stay at home because they can't handle a measly 4 hour graduation?

The reason schools want to keep the ceremonies moving along is because they know: a) a lot of people just can't handle sitting through a ceremony that goes beyond 2 hours, and b) those that can usually want to get the ceremony over with so that they can move on to the real celebration, the graduation party.

camisadelgolf
06-10-2012, 05:41 AM
Instead of disrupting the ceremony and making the event worse for most of the people who attended, maybe people should start having parties to celebrate events like this. You could call it a "graduation party" and invite friends and family. Yes, I'm a little bitter since I didn't hear my name called at graduation thanks to the air horns from the family of the student named before me. I'm all for cheering people on, but once it reaches a certain level, it's disrespectful. I just hope someone alerted the family that the principal would be withholding diplomas to punish those who over-celebrate.

GAC
06-10-2012, 07:16 AM
I watched/listened to the video, and the cheering was loud, but it didn't appear excessive or that it was going on for a long time. Maybe I'm missing something.


Man talk about uptight, time limit, rules, waiver, punishment, community service

All generated from something that should cause joy, celebration... Instead we get autocratic rules and dogmatic paternalism

Fully agree.

We're going down to Nelsonville today for our daughter's graduation from Hocking College. I'm sure we'll get "entertained" with some antics from that minority that get a little more "exuberant" then the rest. I've seen it at two of my kid's HS graduations. It's no big deal IMO.


"In order for [the students whose families were disruptive] to graduate, to receive their diplomas, they are going to have to do some community service," Handler said...... "Parents did know all this information up front," she said. "They signed off saying I understand that this is what's going to happen."

The parent signed it, but was the son required? But even if he did, he didn't violate the agreement according to the Superintendent. Don't see how. from a legal perspective, they can hold the kid responsible for the bad behavior of those he can't control, even if it's family members.

oneupper
06-10-2012, 10:22 AM
I watched/listened to the video, and the cheering was loud, but it didn't appear excessive or that it was going on for a long time. Maybe I'm missing something.


From the video, I get that impression too. However, they did pause the ceremony (which I believe was the trigger) and you don't know where the cheerers were relative to the audio.
In my daughter's graduation (Marlins Park), a few families went loud for a good 30 seconds (about three names, they were going fast). At one point it seemed like a competition, whose family could "outcheer" the previous one. I doubt much was heard on the field where the mike was, but any parents in the same area were not going to hear their kid's name called.


We're going down to Nelsonville today for our daughter's graduation from Hocking College. I'm sure we'll get "entertained" with some antics from that minority that get a little more "exuberant" then the rest. I've seen it at two of my kid's HS graduations. It's no big deal IMO.

:jump: CONGRATULATIONS GAC :jump:Just one more to go now? :beerme:
(Sorry, was that too much? :lol:)

As for the issue, it e was big enough a deal for some parents in the past for the school authorities to take issue and state a policy about. Someone complained and probably more than one person.

It's not only about the kid and the school authorities.

BTW, I hate that civility has to be enforced by a contract. But that's the way things are in the US nowadays.

I do remember the alternative, in Venezuela for example, don't bother complaining about your neighbor's loud party at 4 AM (despite that there are laws and ordinances prohibiting it). The cops won't come, they're probably at the party having a real good time. It's no big deal, I guess. You can always sleep some other day.

oneupper
06-10-2012, 10:50 AM
OT perhaps.

From that same site that brought the Diploma/Cheering story:

I think we can all get behind this young lady.
There was probably too much cheering at that graduation. She'll probably do the service if needed.


From scrubbing floors to Ivy League: Homeless student to go to dream college

Read more: http://www.wcpo.com/dpp/news/national/from-scrubbing-floors-to-ivy-league-homeless-student-to-go-to-dream-college#ixzz1xOjbJ4P1

KittyDuran
06-10-2012, 12:30 PM
OT perhaps.

From that same site that brought the Diploma/Cheering story:

I think we can all get behind this young lady.
There was probably too much cheering at that graduation. She'll probably do the service if needed.

I'm here at a Chili's having to put on my shades cause I'm tearing up... Thanks, oneupper... :)

MWM
06-10-2012, 12:36 PM
I'm with Roy and oneupper on this. There needs to be action taken against those people who never think about how their actions effect other people, who say we're going to do whatever we want regardless of whether it infringes on others. It's all about us. I'm guessing their tune would be a lot different if their kid's name wouldn't have been heard. I doubt they would have just said "it's ok, their baby was graduating so they had a right to celebrate. We didn't need to hear Anthony's name."

Yachtzee's point about length of graduation and who could and couldn't attend is very appropriate. If people think nothing should happen here, is it ok then for everyone to do the same? Or should those who don't hear the names of their family member just accept that as ok? Are you ok with not hearing your child's name at graduation.

MWM
06-10-2012, 12:37 PM
OT perhaps.

From that same site that brought the Diploma/Cheering story:

I think we can all get behind this young lady.
There was probably too much cheering at that graduation. She'll probably do the service if needed.

Unbelievable story. Like Kitty, I couldn't hold back the tears. Good thing I'm home alone right now. :)

hebroncougar
06-10-2012, 01:08 PM
I'm with Roy and oneupper on this. There needs to be action taken against those people who never think about how their actions effect other people, who say we're going to do whatever we want regardless of whether it infringes on others. It's all about us. I'm guessing their tune would be a lot different if their kid's name wouldn't have been heard. I doubt they would have just said "it's ok, their baby was graduating so they had a right to celebrate. We didn't need to hear Anthony's name."

Yachtzee's point about length of graduation and who could and couldn't attend is very appropriate. If people think nothing should happen here, is it ok then for everyone to do the same? Or should those who don't hear the names of their family member just accept that as ok? Are you ok with not hearing your child's name at graduation.

Turn up the PA then, so everyone can hear regardless. And sorry, these kids worked for four years to walk (I suppose sometimes more), grandma and grandpa can sit through a 3 hour graduation. If they can't, don't go. I wonder if let's say, this kid had down syndrome, and people stood up and gave him a standing O. Community service? I had a girl in class 3 years ago, her IQ was a 68. Mom and dad requested I give them all work several weeks ahead of time, so she could keep up. I was skeptical. The girl passed my class with a B. She had special ed collaborator in class to help her with tests and such, but she did the majority of the work on her own. Our guidance counselors and special ed dept. wanted her to get off of diploma track, and get on an easier track. Her mom and dad were extremely insistent about her staying on the "normal" track. She'll be a Senior next year, and she's on regular track. It would be a damn shame if her mom and dad couldn't cheer for her on graduation day. Or what if a kid is the first in his family to graduate from high school. No cheering then? I'm sorry, but what I saw on tape was not out of line. I think the first time someone gets out of line, the speaker pauses (so no one doesn't hear a next name), and pretty rudely reminds people not to do such. Most people in the audience would turn and glare at the offenders, and it would pretty much stop. Again, turn up the PA, pause, do whatever. As long as people aren't blowing air horns, and shooting off fireworks, or going on for 10 seconds, I don't think it's a big deal.

hebroncougar
06-10-2012, 01:09 PM
OT perhaps.

From that same site that brought the Diploma/Cheering story:

I think we can all get behind this young lady.
There was probably too much cheering at that graduation. She'll probably do the service if needed.

That's an inspirational story.

dougdirt
06-10-2012, 01:57 PM
I'm with Roy and oneupper on this. There needs to be action taken against those people who never think about how their actions effect other people, who say we're going to do whatever we want regardless of whether it infringes on others. It's all about us. I'm guessing their tune would be a lot different if their kid's name wouldn't have been heard. I doubt they would have just said "it's ok, their baby was graduating so they had a right to celebrate. We didn't need to hear Anthony's name."

Yachtzee's point about length of graduation and who could and couldn't attend is very appropriate. If people think nothing should happen here, is it ok then for everyone to do the same? Or should those who don't hear the names of their family member just accept that as ok? Are you ok with not hearing your child's name at graduation.

Except you aren't punishing the people who infringed. You are punishing someone else.

MWM
06-10-2012, 02:00 PM
Turn up the PA then, so everyone can hear regardless. And sorry, these kids worked for four years to walk (I suppose sometimes more), grandma and grandpa can sit through a 3 hour graduation. If they can't, don't go.

So the rest of the world should have to make all the edfort for inconsiderate and selfish people? Turning up the PA will not fix the problem.

And why should important people have to stay home? If everyone is considerate of everyone else, there's no need. And you say 3 hours, but what about 4,5 or 6. If everyone does what these people did then that's what larger schools are facing.

You're creating false choices in an attempt to accommodate these types of people. I think it's much easier to have everyone respect those around them.




It would be a damn shame if her mom and dad couldn't cheer for her on graduation day.

That's a classic strawman. No one is saying they shouldn't cheer. Just don't stop the ceremony. It's not the hard.

dougdirt
06-10-2012, 02:02 PM
Give everyone headphones. Problem solved. Sorry, you simply can't give someone community service for cheering outside of a courtroom, and even then, you get a warning from the judge before something like that would happen.

Lady is on a power trip.

MWM
06-10-2012, 02:11 PM
I have no desire to sit through a graduation ceremony with headphones on. And how you gonna provide headphones for thousands of people?

And once again people are saying its simply for cheering. It's not.

hebroncougar
06-10-2012, 02:15 PM
So the rest of the world should have to make all the edfort for inconsiderate and selfish people? Turning up the PA will not fix the problem.

And why should important people have to stay home? If everyone is considerate of everyone else, there's no need. And you say 3 hours, but what about 4,5 or 6. If everyone does what these people did then that's what larger schools are facing.

You're creating false choices in an attempt to accommodate these types of people. I think it's much easier to have everyone respect those around them.





That's a classic strawman. No one is saying they shouldn't cheer. Just don't stop the ceremony. It's not the hard.

Kind of like the student in question huh? Inconsiderate and selfish? For cheering a kid? Sorry, I ain't buying that argument. Why won't turning up the PA solve the problem. You'd hear names. That's what you're griping about. If they are 6 hours long, split the graduations in half. That's what colleges do, graduate by "school". I do notice the rest of the crowd has to be considerate for you.

dougdirt
06-10-2012, 02:16 PM
And once again people are saying its simply for cheering. It's not.

So you can now punish people for cheering for to long by 'sentencing them to community service'? Again, this isn't a courtroom. You simply can't do that. Superintendents are not judges.

westofyou
06-10-2012, 02:17 PM
I have no desire to sit through a graduation ceremony with headphones on. And how you gonna provide headphones for thousands of people?

And once again people are saying its simply for cheering. It's not.

Well, I have no desire to sign a piece of paper that is issued from a bully pulpit, which evidently this one is from.

20 hours community service for the family?

Laughable, bureaucratic nonsense.

Bite me... would be my reply

MWM
06-10-2012, 02:26 PM
Well, I have no desire to sign a piece of paper that is issued from a bully pulpit, which evidently this one is from.

20 hours community service for the family?

Laughable, bureaucratic nonsense.

Bite me... would be my reply

So what should be done?

MWM
06-10-2012, 02:27 PM
So you can now punish people for cheering for to long by 'sentencing them to community service'? Again, this isn't a courtroom. You simply can't do that. Superintendents are not judges.

It's impossible to have a discussion if people refuse to not misrepresent the opposing viewpoint. How many times does it need to be said that it's not because they were cheering. Geez.

westofyou
06-10-2012, 02:34 PM
So what should be done?

Give the kid his diploma, don't blame him for the cheers and tell the school to pull the plug out of their butts and let life be a little more than protocol and rules, in short live life, not inhibit it.

MWM
06-10-2012, 02:51 PM
Give the kid his diploma, don't blame him for the cheers and tell the school to pull the plug out of their butts and let life be a little more than protocol and rules, in short live life, not inhibit it.

So families should be able to cheer as long as they want at graduations? If that's your opinion that's cool, but if everyone followed that pattern these things would take forever.

Yachtzee
06-10-2012, 02:57 PM
Give everyone headphones. Problem solved. Sorry, you simply can't give someone community service for cheering outside of a courtroom, and even then, you get a warning from the judge before something like that would happen.

Lady is on a power trip.

In this day and age, when schools are laying off teachers due to falling property tax revenues, do you think they can afford headphones and the system needed to operate them? That brings up another issue: most larger schools can't accommodate the number of guests for graduation on campus, so they have to rent out an outside facility. If you factor in time for set up and tear down, you're already looking renting the place for 6 hrs for a 2 hr ceremony. At that length, its cutting it close for a facility that might have 2 different graduations in the same day, or maybe a morning graduation and some other event in the evening. Stretch it out to four hours or more and the facility is going to charge to rent the place for the whole day, another expense schools could do without. I think schools are more likely to cancel graduation altogether and mail everyone their diplomas than buy headphones for everyone or just have 4 hr graduations.

Roy Tucker
06-10-2012, 02:59 PM
Give the kid his diploma, don't blame him for the cheers and tell the school to pull the plug out of their butts and let life be a little more than protocol and rules, in short live life, not inhibit it.

Yeah, I hear what your saying and don't totally disagree with it. I hate having to get people to sign forms, take an oath of blood, and engage a bunch of bureuacratic BS to get people to act like responsible human beings. Generally speaking, probably about 95% of the people there would act in a civil way and celebrate, but also be considerate of others and everything would be fine. But you've always got the folks that think that what they want comes first and I'll do what I damn feel and the hell with everyone else and that's why all there silly rules get instituted. These kind of people really exist.

But the issues that me and MWM and oneupper have mentioned are real problems. Been to any graduation commencements lately? I've been to 3 of my kids and another 4 for nephews. They can be long. There are tons of elderly folks there and for them, its an extra-special time and I'd hate to exclude them because other people want to be rude.

Sure I understand that its a time of joy and celebration and there is a certain amount of that. It's not that everyone has to sit on their hands. Your kids' name gets announced, you get to go "yeaaaahhh, wooooooo, yay <name>, we love you, woooo". And then your moment is done and they move to the next kid. It's a balancing act and I think they do a pretty good job of it. If you give people carte blanche with time to carry on and air horns and cow bells, well, it's not going to be a lot of fun. It's going to go on forever and like someone said, it starts to be a competition to see who can go on the longest and loudest. I guarantee this will happen.

dougdirt
06-10-2012, 03:00 PM
It's impossible to have a discussion if people refuse to not misrepresent the opposing viewpoint. How many times does it need to be said that it's not because they were cheering. Geez.

So it is because they were wearing shoes?

Of course it was because they were cheering.

dougdirt
06-10-2012, 03:03 PM
In this day and age, when schools are laying off teachers due to falling property tax revenues, do you think they can afford headphones and the system needed to operate them? That brings up another issue: most larger schools can't accommodate the number of guests for graduation on campus, so they have to rent out an outside facility. If you factor in time for set up and tear down, you're already looking renting the place for 6 hrs for a 2 hr ceremony. At that length, its cutting it close for a facility that might have 2 different graduations in the same day, or maybe a morning graduation and some other event in the evening. Stretch it out to four hours or more and the facility is going to charge to rent the place for the whole day, another expense schools could do without. I think schools are more likely to cancel graduation altogether and mail everyone their diplomas than buy headphones for everyone or just have 4 hr graduations.

Have people bring their own headphones then. Attempting to be a judge doesn't work. It is a ridiculous idea.

westofyou
06-10-2012, 03:06 PM
Yeah, I hear what your saying and don't totally disagree with it. I hate having to get people to sign forms, take an oath of blood, and engage a bunch of bureuacratic BS to get people to act like responsible human beings. Generally speaking, probably about 95% of the people there would act in a civil way and celebrate, but also be considerate of others and everything would be fine. But you've always got the folks that think that what they want comes first and I'll do what I damn feel and the hell with everyone else and that's why all there silly rules get instituted. These kind of people really exist.

But the issues that me and MWM and oneupper have mentioned are real problems. Been to any graduation commencements lately? I've been to 3 of my kids and another 4 for nephews. They can be long. There are tons of elderly folks there and for them, its an extra-special time and I'd hate to exclude them because other people want to be rude.

Sure I understand that its a time of joy and celebration and there is a certain amount of that. It's not that everyone has to sit on their hands. Your kids' name gets announced, you get to go "yeaaaahhh, wooooooo, yay <name>, we love you, woooo". And then your moment is done and they move to the next kid. It's a balancing act and I think they do a pretty good job of it. If you give people carte blanche with time to carry on and air horns and cow bells, well, it's not going to be a lot of fun. It's going to go on forever and like someone said, it starts to be a competition to see who can go on the longest and loudest. I guarantee this will happen.

Sounds a lot like a black baptist church service.

Which begs the question, is this a cultural thing?

westofyou
06-10-2012, 03:07 PM
So families should be able to cheer as long as they want at graduations? If that's your opinion that's cool, but if everyone followed that pattern these things would take forever.

Probably not forever, that would be impossible!!

But maybe longer than Titanic, but easily more gratifying

MWM
06-10-2012, 03:11 PM
Probably not forever, that would be impossible!!

But maybe longer than Titanic, but easily more gratifying

I wouldn't know, I've never seen Titanic. It's one of my proudest accomplishments.

Roy Tucker
06-10-2012, 03:21 PM
Sounds a lot like a black baptist church service.

Which begs the question, is this a cultural thing?

It's the start of the decline of Western Civilization.

If I were king of the world, I'd send out the notices to students and family and get people to sign just to bring up the awareness of what is expected behavior. People do need to get reminded of these things. But unless someone went totally overboard, I wouldn't go around handing out excessive cheering tickets and be all anal about it.

I will say that all the commencements I've been to, this hasn't been a problem. Was there a couple times that things went on a little long? Well, yeah, but nothing terrible. It was just well-intentioned exuberance. I'd let it slide.

westofyou
06-10-2012, 03:23 PM
I wouldn't know, I've never seen Titanic. It's one of my proudest accomplishments.

Ahhh me.... Top Gun/Flashdance/Born on the 4th of July

Congratulations on that accomplishment, very nice.

MWM
06-10-2012, 03:25 PM
Ahhh me.... Top Gun/Flashdance/Born on the 4th of July

Congratulations on that accomplishment, very nice.

I've seen Top Gun of those. But I was12 when it came out, there was no way I wasn't watching it. The summer after it came out me and my friends watched it probably a dozen times.

westofyou
06-10-2012, 03:36 PM
I've seen Top Gun of those. But I was12 when it came out, there was no way I wasn't watching it. The summer after it came out me and my friends watched it probably a dozen times.

Too Danger Zone for me

MWM
06-10-2012, 03:43 PM
Too Danger Zone for me

Watching the jets is stil pretty cool.

Chip R
06-10-2012, 06:20 PM
I think the school is going above and beyond what they should do. I'm not sure why anyone should be punished for something like this.

That said, the kid is a legal graduate and it is very rare that employers and other schools will ask to see the actual diploma. All they care about id if the kid graduated. If he wants the diploma so bad, he should go back in a bot 3-4 years and get it. I'm sure it will be blown over by then.

Caveat Emperor
06-10-2012, 06:29 PM
Sounds a lot like a black baptist church service.

Which begs the question, is this a cultural thing?

I'm sure a lot of different things factor into it -- high school graduation was viewed differently at the school I went to (private, Catholic school in Washington DC), where everyone was expected to move on to college and possibly graduate/professional school, than I'm sure it is in other places where high school graduation rates are lower and a diploma represents the highest level of education most people will be expected to obtain.

But, I hesitate to say it's simply a "cultural" thing. A given culture can be more accepting and tolerant of joyful or boisterous celebration, but we're talking about an issue of common good and respect for fellow celebrants. As Roy pointed out, these events are attended by lots of different people -- I know when I graduated from law school the ceremony was extremely taxing, physically, on my grandparents. Sitting in uncomfortable folding chairs for an extended period of time was difficult for them, and anything that extended the ceremony would amount to additional physical discomfort. I don't think "culture" gives one a right to make an experience unpleasant for others.

HeatherC1212
06-15-2012, 01:48 PM
Hopefully I'm not stirring the pot here as there seem to be some high emotions about this story ;) but there is a way to get through a graduation ceremony without it being 4 hours long and allowing people to cheer.

I went to Colerain's graduation a couple weeks ago and they had a similar rule in place about excessive cheering (apparently last year's ceremony was absolutely horrible with people going crazy for way too long). The kids were all aware of the rule, it was mentioned about three times before they even got to the reading of the names, and people in the crowd around me were very well aware of things. The biggest thing they did to make this move smoothly but also give people a cheering chance was how they read off the names. They first read off the kids on the stage (summa cum laude, etc), then the Student Senate officers, then the other Senate kids, and finally they went to the alphabetical order for everyone else. After each group, or in the case of the alphabetical section after about 15-18 kids, the teacher or administrator who was reading simply said the words, "Thank you" which were the crowds cue that they could now cheer and clap for their students. When your kid walked by on the stage, you got to hear his or her name, see them walk and get their diploma, and when that particular group was done you were able to go crazy however you wanted to support them. It was one of the smoothest and most enjoyable graduations I've ever been to and it didn't bother anyone around me that they couldn't cheer right after their kid's name. They just cheered when their kids group was done. It seems like this type of system would work rather well for a lot of the bigger schools and I can't see how anyone would have a problem with it. And for the record, we were in and out of that ceremony in a little less than two hours (class size: 425 kids). :jump:

BTW-If the family and kid were both informed of the rules, and it sounds like they were, then the family should have respected their kid and the other kids in his class enough to follow those rules. I can understand them being frustrated that he's being punished for their actions but they should have known better. It really isn't that hard! :eek: And count me as another who is a little irritated with them for running off to the press with this instead of dealing with the school and figuring out a way to help their kid get his diploma. That just screams 'attention getter' to me and I have no patience for that sort of thing. Obviously that's just my opinion but this story got way out of hand and could have been handled better. :eek: