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View Full Version : Closing may be ruining a great pitcher



brm7675
06-08-2012, 11:03 AM
No question Chapman is an incredible talent, but watching him waste away in the closer role is becoming more and more frustrating. We saw last night that his continual use of primarily fastballs not only is hurting his progression as a quality pitcher, it turns him into just another bullpen arm. Yes throwing 100mph is nice and it looks great on the radar gun and the fans eat it up.

SO WHAT.

A great pitcher knows how to use a multitude of pitches depending on whom the batter is to get an out. Last night two players who were not even hitting over .200 showed that hitting a 97+ mph fastball isn't that tough. We know Chapman has a nasty slider, but have we seen it much? The ability to get hitters out to a degree is based on keeping them thinking on what pitch is coming and Chapman is not fooling anyone right now and is also harming his ability to possibily being a quality starter at some point.

Falcon7
06-08-2012, 11:18 AM
No question Chapman is an incredible talent, but watching him waste away in the closer role is becoming more and more frustrating. We saw last night that his continual use of primarily fastballs not only is hurting his progression as a quality pitcher, it turns him into just another bullpen arm. Yes throwing 100mph is nice and it looks great on the radar gun and the fans eat it up.

SO WHAT.

A great pitcher knows how to use a multitude of pitches depending on whom the batter is to get an out. Last night two players who were not even hitting over .200 showed that hitting a 97+ mph fastball isn't that tough. We know Chapman has a nasty slider, but have we seen it much? The ability to get hitters out to a degree is based on keeping them thinking on what pitch is coming and Chapman is not fooling anyone right now and is also harming his ability to possibily being a quality starter at some point.

The 1st double was off a 91 mph slider, the 2nd double was a 99 mph fastball.

Who Dey Time
06-08-2012, 11:25 AM
No question Chapman is an incredible talent, but watching him waste away in the closer role is becoming more and more frustrating. We saw last night that his continual use of primarily fastballs not only is hurting his progression as a quality pitcher, it turns him into just another bullpen arm. Yes throwing 100mph is nice and it looks great on the radar gun and the fans eat it up.

SO WHAT.

A great pitcher knows how to use a multitude of pitches depending on whom the batter is to get an out. Last night two players who were not even hitting over .200 showed that hitting a 97+ mph fastball isn't that tough. We know Chapman has a nasty slider, but have we seen it much? The ability to get hitters out to a degree is based on keeping them thinking on what pitch is coming and Chapman is not fooling anyone right now and is also harming his ability to possibily being a quality starter at some point.

Chapman's fastball has been damn near impossible to hit for most everyone in the league. He got a fastball up last night and the guy got him. Nothing more than that.

Are you actually trying to argue that Chapman has been hittable based on one night (actually only 2 batters)? I know you are the king of silly threads that pertain to Chapman but this is nuts. He gave up one run. One measley run in 2+ months of pitching and now the red flags are out? Come on man.

LexRedsFan
06-08-2012, 12:06 PM
Dude gives up his first earned run of the season in JUNE, and people freak. :laugh::laugh:

Everyone gives up runs every once in a while (Save the 59 inning scoreless streak). 9 hits allowed in 30 innings is absurd.

m21eagle45
06-08-2012, 12:06 PM
Chapman has struck out 54 of the 111 batters he has faced and only given up 9 hits and 9 walks in 30 innings. Don't get me wrong, when they put him in the pen I was not happy. But what he brings as a closer is historic, and I doubt he would be able to come close to having these types of numbers as a starter. Just ask the Yanks how valuable MO was during their WS runs. His ability to shut down the end of a game gives him the potential to be the best of all time.

Now, would I be upset if they moved him to be a starter? No, not at all. But he is definitely not a waste in his current role. The Reds have a weapon to close out games that no other team in baseball can match right now.

Krawhitham
06-08-2012, 12:37 PM
Yesterday he was going to win the Cy Young today he is being ruined. You got to love the Sundeck

brm7675
06-08-2012, 12:42 PM
The 1st double was off a 91 mph slider, the 2nd double was a 99 mph fastball.

A slider that was up because he isn't using it much. As any good pitcher will tell you...use it or lose it. He needs to be expanding his abilities, not restricting them.

brm7675
06-08-2012, 12:49 PM
Chapman's fastball has been damn near impossible to hit for most everyone in the league. He got a fastball up last night and the guy got him. Nothing more than that.

Are you actually trying to argue that Chapman has been hittable based on one night (actually only 2 batters)? I know you are the king of silly threads that pertain to Chapman but this is nuts. He gave up one run. One measley run in 2+ months of pitching and now the red flags are out? Come on man.

A guy hitting under .200 got not one hit, but 2. He has been reduced to just throwing fastballs for some reason. This impedes his overall growth. Continuing to have him as a closer is ruining his productivity and value to the team. We have other players in the pen who can close, how often to come across a talent like Chapman and end up only using it on average 1-2 a week for 1 inning each outing.

SidneySlicker
06-08-2012, 01:04 PM
A guy hitting under .200 got not one hit, but 2. He has been reduced to just throwing fastballs for some reason. This impedes his overall growth. Continuing to have him as a closer is ruining his productivity and value to the team. We have other players in the pen who can close, how often to come across a talent like Chapman and end up only using it on average 1-2 a week for 1 inning each outing.

Woulda, coulda, shoulda. I'm not convinced that Chapman is built to be a starter. Chapman is a high energy pitcher. He expends a lot of energy with each pitch. Many say the Reds are wasting his development of him as a starter by using him as a closer, but I say they'd be wasting his time as the best closer in baseball by trying to make him a starter.

I think he best serves this team in the role of the best closer in MLB. You can have the best closer in the game or you send him down to Triple A and have him try and develop a 3rd and 4th pitch that may or may not ever happen. I'll take the best Closer in the game.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't remember everyone clamoring for Norm Charlton, Randy Meyers, or Rod Dibble as a starter just because they could blow gas by hitters, so why for Chapman?

MrRedLegger
06-08-2012, 01:18 PM
If Chapman is in the roation, he pitches once every 5 games.

Because he is the closer, he has the opportunity to appear in every game. In reality, he appears in 2-3 games during each rotation. It is safe to assume that if he is in the game it is either a save situation or the game is on the line (Like last night). This allows him to be an intimidating and effective presence in more games than being in the rotation would allow.

For comparison:

Cueto is 6-3 with 78.2 innings pitched in 12 games
Latos: 4-1, 62.1 IP, 11 G
Arroyo: 2-4, 69.0 IP, 11G
Bailey: 4-4, 65.2 IP, 11G
Leake: 2-5, 63.1, 11G

Chapman is 4-1 with 6 saves in 30 innings appearing in 25 games (All in relief)

More or just as many wins as everyone in the rotation (minus Johnny) in less than half of the innings and has been a factor in twice as many games. That is efficiency and effectiveness.

Where Chapman is right is working. He is virtually unhittable in late game situations when the batters have no idea what they're about to face and are unprepared. If he pitches 6 or more at a time his ERA goes way up from 0.30 It would be fantastic to see him pitch in the rotation, but would be far less effective when you consider the Red's record. He has impacted more wins than anyone in the rotation as a relief pitcher.

brm7675
06-08-2012, 02:16 PM
If Chapman is in the roation, he pitches once every 5 games.

Because he is the closer, he has the opportunity to appear in every game. In reality, he appears in 2-3 games during each rotation. It is safe to assume that if he is in the game it is either a save situation or the game is on the line (Like last night). This allows him to be an intimidating and effective presence in more games than being in the rotation would allow.

For comparison:

Cueto is 6-3 with 78.2 innings pitched in 12 games
Latos: 4-1, 62.1 IP, 11 G
Arroyo: 2-4, 69.0 IP, 11G
Bailey: 4-4, 65.2 IP, 11G
Leake: 2-5, 63.1, 11G

Chapman is 4-1 with 6 saves in 30 innings appearing in 25 games (All in relief)

More or just as many wins as everyone in the rotation (minus Johnny) in less than half of the innings and has been a factor in twice as many games. That is efficiency and effectiveness.

Where Chapman is right is working. He is virtually unhittable in late game situations when the batters have no idea what they're about to face and are unprepared. If he pitches 6 or more at a time his ERA goes way up from 0.30 It would be fantastic to see him pitch in the rotation, but would be far less effective when you consider the Red's record. He has impacted more wins than anyone in the rotation as a relief pitcher.

Who makes more money? SP or Closers? How many closers are in the HOF compared to SP? Closers are dime a dozen, eaisly replaceable, Quality SP is not and yet is a HUGE KEY to success. Wasting maybe your best pitcher to toss maybe an inning or 2 a week is a waste any way you want to look at it.

Ironman92
06-08-2012, 02:21 PM
Who makes more money? SP or Closers? How many closers are in the HOF compared to SP? Closers are dime a dozen, eaisly replaceable, Quality SP is not and yet is a HUGE KEY to success. Wasting maybe your best pitcher to toss maybe an inning or 2 a week is a waste any way you want to look at it.

Shhh! No facts please.

It's Bill Bray's fault. Lol

Red Buckeye
06-08-2012, 02:43 PM
Yesterday he was going to win the Cy Young today he is being ruined. You got to love the Sundeck

Question...If you hate the SunDeck why do you come over here? Go back to your Old Red Guard, you don't belong here with us simple minded folks. This is one reason I wouldn't join the O.R.G if I was invited. It seems like once you get in you automatically become a snob.

Larkin88
06-08-2012, 03:03 PM
Question...If you hate the SunDeck why do you come over here? Go back to your Old Red Guard, you don't belong here with us simple minded folks. This is one reason I wouldn't join the O.R.G if I was invited. It seems like once you get in you automatically become a snob.

Well, I'm not on ORG and I agree with the sentiment Krawhitham shared.

It is absolutely ridiculous that a guy gives up an earned run for the first time on June 7th and people are here complaining. Further ridiculous that OP feels the need to start a new thread every single time he wants to whine, when there are already tens of threads about any combination of 1) Chapman 2) the closing situation and 3) How he is being ruined as a starter.

I don't know if people from ORG are snobs necessarily, but The Sun Deck is full of guys who just post nonsense to hear themselves talk.

Case in point: This thread.

MrRedLegger
06-08-2012, 03:36 PM
Who makes more money? SP or Closers? How many closers are in the HOF compared to SP? Closers are dime a dozen, eaisly replaceable, Quality SP is not and yet is a HUGE KEY to success. Wasting maybe your best pitcher to toss maybe an inning or 2 a week is a waste any way you want to look at it.

I love your passion for the game and for the Reds. Reds Nation needs more people like you, but what you're arguing isn't that simple. If the best use of him was in the rotation, he'd be there right now. It's only a matter of time until that happens anyway, even Walt has mentioned we need him in the pen for now but he is destined to be a starter. Sometimes the posts on these forums suggest that no one in the Reds organization knows what they're doing which is absurd to assume. To say that Chapman being in the bullpen is a waste is absurd. His statistics back up the fact that he is thriving in this position. I support the role he is playing now and I am not a proponent of putting Chapman where we don't know for sure how he'll do. To say that he needs a 3rd and 4th pitch, he needs to get stretched out, he needs to go to AAA, etc., in order to be an effective starter are all subjective and speculative. Give him an offseason to develop those. The facts, however, show that Chapman is doing very well where he is now. He is doing so well that he has all of baseball's attention. He is doing so well that most batters fear facing him. He is doing so well that when they do face him, they are tired and have no clue how to hit him. While Chapman is on the mound, 83% of batters never see first base. Of those batters, 59% never make contact with the ball. Not one pitcher even comes close to this kind of efficiency. The only assumption I'm willing to make (and most would agree) is that those numbers go down once he's in the rotation.

How much a pitcher makes and whether or not he makes the HOF are irrelevant to a championship. Chapman is one of a kind. The Reds DO have quality SP.

As this season continues to unfold I am more and more supporting the decision to keep him in the bullpen for this season. He is needed there. As this season continues to unfold, it seems that the Front Office of The 1st Place Reds does know what they're doing...

EMAW
06-09-2012, 03:37 PM
"Wasting away?"
Is the closer role the same as mopup?

TSJ55
06-09-2012, 03:46 PM
I love him in the closing role and personally think he was born for it. It will be a sad day in my world if/when they try to move him to the starting rotation. As was mentioned earlier, he is a high energy pitcher and I don't think he has the self control to reign himself in enough to go deep into games.

I also think only think throwing every 5 days would wear on him. As a closer, if you have a bad outing you get the opportunity to make up for quickly. As starter, you have to sit around and think about it.