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View Full Version : From the Sunday Night Reds/Tigers game... Valverde and the spit ball



REDblooded
06-11-2012, 12:07 AM
This probably deserves its own thread... Watch closely at the 9 second mark in the bottom of the 9th, with 1 ball and 2 strikes vs. Mesoraco... The ensuing pitch is the swinging 3rd strike...

Valverde serves up a spit ball - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kCxtMb_ZXiI&feature=plcp)

And in slow motion...

Slow-mo spitter - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PSAdbWD85kg)

reds1869
06-11-2012, 12:08 AM
About as clear cut as it gets. The league office needs to deal with him but probably lacks the backbone.

cbowen2112
06-11-2012, 12:14 AM
Can you submit this to the league office? Or to the Reds so they can have this dealt with? Originally thought, this game just had bad luck all over it. Now, I feel a bit cheated. I am sure Mesoraco might too. He did look really bad on a pitch that had crazy movement.

kaldaniels
06-11-2012, 12:16 AM
On my phone so I don't have a big picture...is there enough evidence there to "convict"?

REDblooded
06-11-2012, 12:18 AM
On my phone so I don't have a big picture...is there enough evidence there to "convict"?


It's pretty clear-cut...

REDblooded
06-11-2012, 12:21 AM
I also emailed it to Deadspin's tip line...

kbrake
06-11-2012, 12:38 AM
The way tonight went I'm surprised Angel Hernandez didn't spit on it for him.

hebroncougar
06-11-2012, 12:39 AM
Send it to the guy that runs hardballtalk.com He'll run with it for sure.

Sent from my Desire HD using Tapatalk 2

The Operator
06-11-2012, 12:41 AM
No wonder he went all last season without blowing a save. Not too hard when you can bring it 94 mph with saliva and brick dust on the ball.

REDblooded
06-11-2012, 12:46 AM
Send it to the guy that runs hardballtalk.com He'll run with it for sure.

Sent from my Desire HD using Tapatalk 2

Done... Sent it to pretty much everybody possible... Let's see if somebody does something with it...

*BaseClogger*
06-11-2012, 12:47 AM
Do we know for certain he wasn't just talking to the ball (Unfortunately a serious question)

REDblooded
06-11-2012, 12:50 AM
He worked up a pretty solid loogey, put his mouth to his glove, and never spit onto the ground... So unless he's a serious swallower, I'd say he spit that thing into his glove...

REDblooded
06-11-2012, 12:56 AM
Dallas Latos is running with it...

https://twitter.com/DallasLatos/status/212044969115000832

*BaseClogger*
06-11-2012, 01:01 AM
He worked up a pretty solid loogey, put his mouth to his glove, and never spit onto the ground... So unless he's a serious swallower, I'd say he spit that thing into his glove...

Unfortunately, circumstantial stuff like this doesn't get people into trouble in this country...

reds44
06-11-2012, 01:06 AM
Yeah, I don't think it's as clear cut as people are making it.

REDblooded
06-11-2012, 01:08 AM
Covers the Tigers for Fox...

Dave Hogg ‏@Stareagle (https://twitter.com/Stareagle)

The pitch in that video doesn't dive like a spitter would normally behave. Clearly spits into the glove with the ball in it, though.



Reply (https://twitter.com/Stareagle/status/212047754099298304#)
Retweet (https://twitter.com/Stareagle/status/212047754099298304#)
Favorite (https://twitter.com/Stareagle/status/212047754099298304#) (https://twitter.com/Stareagle/status/212047754099298304#)

757690
06-11-2012, 01:09 AM
Yeah, I don't think it's as clear cut as people are making it.

It's clear cut. It just won't result in anything.

SunDeck
06-11-2012, 07:15 AM
But the ball he threw didn't appear to have any funky movement on it. Looked like a fastball, up and in.

icehole3
06-11-2012, 07:23 AM
Done... Sent it to pretty much everybody possible... Let's see if somebody does something with it...

he probably wont do anything about it but did you send it to John Fay or Sheldon, they see Dusty everyday :)

BCubb2003
06-11-2012, 07:38 AM
he probably wont do anything about it but did you send it to John Fay or Sheldon, they see Dusty everyday :)

Sheldon has tweeted about it.

https://twitter.com/m_sheldon/status/212068480411893760

OesterPoster
06-11-2012, 08:14 AM
Craig Calcaterra has it up now too:

http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/06/11/was-jose-valverde-throwing-spitballs-last-night/

hebroncougar
06-11-2012, 08:18 AM
But the ball he threw didn't appear to have any funky movement on it. Looked like a fastball, up and in.

According to hardballtalk, it had more rotations than the other FB's he threw. Not sure if that's what a spitter would do. If he threw it with the saliva on the side, does it have more horizontal movement?

OesterPoster
06-11-2012, 08:27 AM
According to hardballtalk, it had more rotations than the other FB's he threw. Not sure if that's what a spitter would do. If he threw it with the saliva on the side, does it have more horizontal movement?

I honestly don't think it affected the flight or rotation of that particular pitch, but just like a corked bat, it's more of a confidence thing for Valverde. He'd been struggling, and he found something that makes him feel like it helps. Maybe it does, maybe it doesn't.

OesterPoster
06-11-2012, 08:54 AM
Looks like you've made some new friends RedBlooded. LOL.

http://www.mlive.com/tigers/index.ssf/2012/06/twitter_account_posts_video.html

redsmetz
06-11-2012, 09:02 AM
I immediately thought the ball didn't look as if it reacted to a foreign substance, but what occurs to me is the rule is, IIRC, that going to their mouth period should be called a ball. Am I mistaken about that? Of course, as someone else noted, it was Angel Hernandez behind the plate - one of the worst umpires in MLB, IMO.

redsmetz
06-11-2012, 09:09 AM
Looks like you've made some new friends RedBlooded. LOL.

http://www.mlive.com/tigers/index.ssf/2012/06/twitter_account_posts_video.html

The first comment is interesting:

IT DOESN'T MATTER. Since the beginning of the 2011 season pitchers can go to their mouth on the mound. He could spit on his hand and then pitch - all within the rules of today's game as long as he's not contacting the rubber.

Is this correct?

WildcatFan
06-11-2012, 09:11 AM
The only thing that would be more definitive would be if you could actually see the saliva. Of course, not even Valverde is stupid enough to do it in plain view. That seems to be as clear cut a spitball as you'll ever get on a broadcast. Regardless of how the ball actually acted (spitters are unpredictable; that's why pitchers used them), it's cheating.

George Anderson
06-11-2012, 09:55 AM
, IIRC, that going to their mouth period should be called a ball. Am I mistaken about that? Of course, as someone else noted, it was Angel Hernandez behind the plate - one of the worst umpires in MLB, IMO.

Correct, if the pitcher is in contact with the rubber and he goes to his mouth then it is an illegal pitch and a ball is called.

Not to defend Hernandez because he had a poor game but in this instance from where he is standing it is hard to see Valverde spitting into his mitt. From the side we can see Valverde spit but looking straight on from behind HP I doubt Hernandez could see that because the mitt was covering his mouth.

757690
06-11-2012, 10:49 AM
The first comment is interesting:

IT DOESN'T MATTER. Since the beginning of the 2011 season pitchers can go to their mouth on the mound. He could spit on his hand and then pitch - all within the rules of today's game as long as he's not contacting the rubber.

Is this correct?

Good catch, but Incorrect. The rule is that a pitcher can go to his mouth on the mound, as long as he is not on the rubber, and clearly wipes his hand before he steps back on the rubber. Spitting into his glove is forbidden under any circumstance.

757690
06-11-2012, 10:55 AM
But the ball he threw didn't appear to have any funky movement on it. Looked like a fastball, up and in.

Hard to control how a spitball will react. Some don't react at all, some drop, some raise, some wiggle, it's kinda like a knuckler, you never know where it will go.

OesterPoster
06-11-2012, 11:07 AM
USA Today running with it now too:

http://content.usatoday.com/communities/dailypitch/post/2012/06/jose-valverde-spitball-tigers/1#.T9YJZVLpc0s

klw
06-11-2012, 11:36 AM
It had to be done

The Magic Loogie - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WEzBeP6pRoY)

_Sir_Charles_
06-11-2012, 11:40 AM
I knew that's what I saw last night. Thanks Redblooded for snagging the video. I've never liked Valverde, but IMO that spitter had very little bearing on our implosion last night. Still, it should be addressed.

The Operator
06-11-2012, 12:36 PM
The first comment is interesting:

IT DOESN'T MATTER. Since the beginning of the 2011 season pitchers can go to their mouth on the mound. He could spit on his hand and then pitch - all within the rules of today's game as long as he's not contacting the rubber.

Is this correct?Maybe, but the situation is wrong. He didn't go to his mouth, he flat-out spit into the glove. And he was on the rubber IIRC.

I mean this is about as close to a smoking gun as you can get IMO. Has a big loogy at the tip of his tongue,goes to his glove, loogy gone. Then, he goes to the ground to get some brick dust to help even more.

I'm sure nothing will happen from this but I hope other teams will now be on the lookout for this and if he tries pulling it again maybe he'll actually get nailed for it since if it's caught during the game they could inspect the ball to see if he had doctored it.

powersackers
06-11-2012, 12:39 PM
I mentioned the Valverde slow mo you tube video on a call into MLB Radio this morning with Mike Ferin and Todd Hollandsworth. They were already talking about it before I called in.

OesterPoster
06-11-2012, 12:45 PM
Figured Duk would run with it too.

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/mlb-big-league-stew/jose-valverde-spitball-clip-goes-viral-raises-more-163152268--mlb.html

fearofpopvol1
06-11-2012, 01:10 PM
I think it's fair to say that enough people have picked up on it now that the league will at least be made aware of it. Hopefully he's punished.

*BaseClogger*
06-11-2012, 04:16 PM
Looks like you've made some new friends RedBlooded. LOL.

http://www.mlive.com/tigers/index.ssf/2012/06/twitter_account_posts_video.html

From the comments:


All I know is, Valverde going through his routine in slow-motion is brutal.

Amen! :lol:

SunDeck
06-11-2012, 04:17 PM
Hard to control how a spitball will react. Some don't react at all, some drop, some raise, some wiggle, it's kinda like a knuckler, you never know where it will go.

That's the point- if I remember correctly, the ump has a couple options. If he sees the pitcher go to his mouth, he can call a ball. Or, if he sees the ball react in a way that doesn't seem normal, he can inspect the ball. In this case, if his line of sight doesn't allow him to see the pitcher spitting in his glove and the pitch is a straight fastball, I can't see how he calls it a spitter.

Yogi Berra used to shine the ball by taking a new one from the ump and upon reaching back to get it would feign losing his balance. He'd catch himself with his right hand, in which the ball resided, pressing the ball into the dirt, then toss it back to Whitey with a chunk of dirt or a scuff on it. My brother used to try that when he was a knothole catcher. :laugh:

George Anderson
06-11-2012, 04:26 PM
That's the point- if I remember correctly, the ump has a couple options. If he sees the pitcher go to his mouth, he can call a ball. Or, if he sees the ball react in a way that doesn't seem normal, he can inspect the ball. In this case, if his line of sight doesn't allow him to see the pitcher spitting in his glove and the pitch is a straight fastball, I can't see how he calls it a spitter.

:

The 3rd or 1st base ump can call it because they have the best angle. They probally didn't call it last night because more than likely they weren't looking at Valverde's mouth when he was getting on the rubber. However next time he is on the mound or rubber the I just betcha the umps will be looking at his mouth.

REDblooded
06-11-2012, 08:56 PM
well that blew up fast...

*BaseClogger*
06-11-2012, 09:04 PM
well that blew up fast...

Yeah, dude, I was watching ESPN and it made it's way onto Around the Horn and I was exclaiming that originated on RedsZone! That originated on RedsZone!

kaldaniels
06-11-2012, 09:32 PM
I've got a suspicion that Mat had a heart-to-heart with Dallas about what is kosher to discuss on twitter.

*BaseClogger*
06-11-2012, 09:55 PM
I've got a suspicion that Mat had a heart-to-heart with Dallas about what is kosher to discuss on twitter.

No new tweets recently? I'd follow her, but she tweets too much haha...

HeatherC1212
06-11-2012, 10:23 PM
No new tweets recently? I'd follow her, but she tweets too much haha...

She's been tweeting tonight so I don't think she's hiding from Twitter and for the record, she retweeted this story from someone else so it probably would have gotten around even without her help. ;)

Hope people are really watching Valverde from here on out. That was pretty blatent IMO. :thumbdown:

WVPacman
06-11-2012, 11:14 PM
Sorry if already posted but MLB is looking at the situation!!

http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20120611/SPORTS0104/206110383

AtomicDumpling
06-11-2012, 11:25 PM
That's awesome. Good job Redszoners for spotting the cheater and posting it on YouTube!

This incident will definitely sully his reputation and put him under a lot of scrutiny.

Caveman Techie
06-12-2012, 07:38 AM
Good job! Doesn't change the outcome of the game, but if it puts Valverde under more scrutiny it may keep him from cheating (if he even did) in the future.

REDblooded
06-12-2012, 06:37 PM
HAHAHAHA. Awesome comment on that article:

"I've seen Valverde pitch. Are we sure this video isn't shown at regular speed?"

AtomicDumpling
06-12-2012, 10:13 PM
Valverde denies spitting on the ball, says he puts glove to mouth because he sweats a lot. Huh?

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/valverde-denies-throwing-spitball-against-215933615--mlb.html

Homer Bailey
06-12-2012, 10:23 PM
I'm at wrigley tonight. TONS of tigers fans making tons of noise

_Sir_Charles_
06-13-2012, 04:08 PM
MLB will not discipline Tigers closer Jose Valverde after an Internet video showed Valverde putting his glove to his mouth with the ball in it before delivering a pitch vs. the Reds on Sunday.

Many suspected Valverde spit on the ball, which is against baseball rules, but MLB found no definitive proof and no one on the field saw anything suspicious.

"We looked into it, and we talked to the club. There will be no discipline," said MLB spokesman Pat Courtney.

Despite the outcome, it would logical for Valverde to assume opposing teams will now be watching him more closely.

This is what I expected would happen, but I'm fine with that. Just the fact that light got shined on the issue was enough for me.