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View Full Version : Swap Ondrusek and Simon?



Superdude
06-11-2012, 01:13 AM
This post comes with all the heated frustration of a sundeck reactionary thread, but after checking the numbers, I figured there was enough objective evidence to bear out my point and make this a thread worthy topic...and I'm REALLY angry!!!! :runawaycry:

Ondrusek performed well as a high leverage set up man early in the year, but I'm pretty much done watching this 6th inning reliever miscast into these types of situations. His K rate is hovering under 6 and his control isn't doing him any favors either. Just brings nothing to the table to warrant this much trust.

Simon, on the other hand, seems to have found some kind of niche in the bullpen. Every time Dusty puts him in, he throws strikes, has good stuff, and misses bats. Sounds like a late inning reliever to me.

So I've got the petition and back up mob torches in my garage...who's with me?!

Plus Plus
06-11-2012, 01:19 AM
The bigger problem in this specific game was the absolutely horrifying use of Arredondo.

That being said, I trust Ondrusek less the more that I watch him play.

Superdude
06-11-2012, 01:30 AM
The bigger problem in this specific game was the absolutely horrifying use of Arredondo.

That being said, I trust Ondrusek less the more that I watch him play.

His FIP, not including tonight, is the highest in the whole pen by 0.78. I know there's no chance this gets addressed anytime soon because his ERA is still shiny, but tonight was just maddening. A leadoff hitter facing a three run deficit and batting .210 should never in a million years walk on four pitches.

Kc61
06-11-2012, 01:32 AM
Arredondo against Cabrera in that spot in the seventh inning made perfect sense to me. He just didn't do the job.

Ondrusek looked better this weekend. He wasn't bad tonight, he got them out of the 7th, then in the 8th, three runs up, he allowed a walk and a bloop. Not a disaster in my book, Chapman just had some bad luck.

Generally, Baker is relying too much on four relievers. He needs to use Simon and Lecure more in the later innings, and to use the "big four" less. Over the last week I've started to see overuse of the main four relievers which is a bad trend and is impairing their effectiveness.

Crumbley
06-11-2012, 02:20 AM
I'd like to see more of Hoover.

reds44
06-11-2012, 02:21 AM
The bigger problem in this specific game was the absolutely horrifying use of Arredondo.

And Marshall. Tonight was on Dusty.

Tom Servo
06-11-2012, 04:04 AM
And Marshall. Tonight was on Dusty.
Right, Dusty walked Cabrera and gave up the hit to Fielder.

mth123
06-11-2012, 07:39 AM
This post comes with all the heated frustration of a sundeck reactionary thread, but after checking the numbers, I figured there was enough objective evidence to bear out my point and make this a thread worthy topic...and I'm REALLY angry!!!! :runawaycry:

Ondrusek performed well as a high leverage set up man early in the year, but I'm pretty much done watching this 6th inning reliever miscast into these types of situations. His K rate is hovering under 6 and his control isn't doing him any favors either. Just brings nothing to the table to warrant this much trust.

Simon, on the other hand, seems to have found some kind of niche in the bullpen. Every time Dusty puts him in, he throws strikes, has good stuff, and misses bats. Sounds like a late inning reliever to me.

So I've got the petition and back up mob torches in my garage...who's with me?!

Agree with the low K, high walk, BABIP fueled effectiveness asessment for Ondrusek. I have a feeling he's the guy most likely to go south. I'm hoping for the team to mix all three of Lecure, Simon and Hoover into the late innng mix more often. I suspect Lecure will prove to be the best of them, but I'd give them all a try. Arredondo needs a bit more rest too. With Bray rehabbing and a lot of teams needing bullpen depth, I wonder if Ondrusek could be the guy to deal to address the LH platoon OF that the team really needs.

edabbs44
06-11-2012, 07:57 AM
And Marshall. Tonight was on Dusty.

Why do you say that?

bucksfan2
06-11-2012, 09:31 AM
Why do you say that?

Im usually not a big hammer on Dusty guy but I thought he mismanaged the game last night. What was shocking is he used up his top 3 guys to record 1 out in the 7th. I wouldn't have yanked Arredondo to face fielder and then wouldn't have yanked Marshall to face Young. It was a TLR managed game something Dusty doesn't done and hasn't done during his tenure as a Red. Going to Chapman in the 8th wasn't a big deal except that everything went wrong when he got into the game. The grazing of a HBP then the double down the line that kicked up chalk at best.

PuffyPig
06-11-2012, 09:53 AM
Im usually not a big hammer on Dusty guy but I thought he mismanaged the game last night. What was shocking is he used up his top 3 guys to record 1 out in the 7th. I wouldn't have yanked Arredondo to face fielder and then wouldn't have yanked Marshall to face Young. It was a TLR managed game something Dusty doesn't done and hasn't done during his tenure as a Red. Going to Chapman in the 8th wasn't a big deal except that everything went wrong when he got into the game. The grazing of a HBP then the double down the line that kicked up chalk at best.

If the relivers had recored outs everyone would have thought baker had done the right think.

It's not like we ran out of relievers or anything.

Each relief change resulted in a better match up for us.

If Arredondo had given up hits to Fielder and Young everyone would have complained.

The fact is the moves look bad because the relievers didn't get the job done.

bucksfan2
06-11-2012, 10:00 AM
If the relivers had recored outs everyone would have thought baker had done the right think.

It's not like we ran out of relievers or anything.

Each relief change resulted in a better match up for us.

If Arredondo had given up hits to Fielder and Young everyone would have complained.

The fact is the moves look bad because the relievers didn't get the job done.

Arredondo walked Cabrera, Marshall gave up a hit to Fielder, then Ondrusek came in to face Young. Dusty has never really managed that way, especially with his top 3 high leverage relievers, guys who you expect to face one batter or more. If you wanted to bring Marshall into face Fielder then fine, but give him Young to get out as well. It was just a couple of weeks ago that you would bring Marshall into face three hitters in the ninth regardless of handedness, now he is only good enough to face one? Cabrera and Fielder I can see making situational changes, but Young?

RedsManRick
06-11-2012, 10:03 AM
Arredondo walked Cabrera, Marshall gave up a hit to Fielder, then Ondrusek came in to face Young. Dusty has never really managed that way, especially with his top 3 high leverage relievers, guys who you expect to face one batter or more. If you wanted to bring Marshall into face Fielder then fine, but give him Young to get out as well. It was just a couple of weeks ago that you would bring Marshall into face three hitters in the ninth regardless of handedness, now he is only good enough to face one? Cabrera and Fielder I can see making situational changes, but Young?

This. Using Marshall as a LOOGY is just poor managing.

Chip R
06-11-2012, 10:12 AM
A little over a month ago, people wanted Ondrusek to be the closer.

PuffyPig
06-11-2012, 10:39 AM
Arredondo walked Cabrera, Marshall gave up a hit to Fielder, then Ondrusek came in to face Young. Dusty has never really managed that way, especially with his top 3 high leverage relievers, guys who you expect to face one batter or more. If you wanted to bring Marshall into face Fielder then fine, but give him Young to get out as well. It was just a couple of weeks ago that you would bring Marshall into face three hitters in the ninth regardless of handedness, now he is only good enough to face one? Cabrera and Fielder I can see making situational changes, but Young?

But keeping those guys in the game longer shouldn't have increased our chances of winning.

Each resulted in a better match up for us, and we didn't run out of pitchers.

Posters arguing about leaving Marshall in longer isn't about him having a better chance of getting Young out. It's about Ondrusek giving up a walk and a hit to open the 8th.

Baker should have chosen a different route to take becuase this one didn't work. I think that's the argument. I don't think anyone is saying that he put inferior choices in there to face certain batters.

Again, it's not like he ran out of pitchers.

Kc61
06-11-2012, 10:47 AM
I'd like to see more of Hoover.

Hoover is an extreme fly ball pitcher. At home, at GABP, perhaps it would be best if you didn't see more of him.

I just don't see what the big deal is about last night. Dusty went with lefty/righty matchups. Arredondo came in to get the righty, Cabrera. Marshall came in to get the lefty, Fielder.

Makes perfect sense, they didn't get the batters out.

Ondrusek didn't pitch badly. He walked the lead off hitter, not good, but then he gave up a bloop. Big deal.

And Dusty then had Chapman in reserve, waiting for the eighth inning. Trouble came, Dusty properly used him. Things just didn't go his way.

Put it this way: Dusty went to his best four relievers last night and they didn't get the job done. The problem wasn't Dusty, it was the relievers. And some of it was bad luck on fluke plays like a phantom HBP and a dubious double that "hugged" the line.

And by the way, why no blame on Mesoraco? He didn't get the tag on the Bruce throw to home plate. Chapman's wild pitch may have been playable. He's a Reds touted rookie so nobody is going to pick on him.

It was bad execution by the Reds not the managing. And some bad luck.

Plus Plus
06-11-2012, 10:52 AM
But keeping those guys in the game longer shouldn't have increased our chances of winning.

Each resulted in a better match up for us, and we didn't run out of pitchers.

Posters arguing about leaving Marshall in longer isn't about him having a better chance of getting Young out. It's about Ondrusek giving up a walk and a hit to open the 8th.

Baker should have chosen a different route to take becuase this one didn't work. I think that's the argument. I don't think anyone is saying that he put inferior choices in there to face certain batters.

Again, it's not like he ran out of pitchers.

But it isn't about running out of pitchers. Obviously, Chapman, Hoover, LeCure, and Simon (as well as Ondrusek, having ended the previous inning) were available at the start of the eighth. I think a lot of it has to do with Baker's pattern of bullpen usage as the Reds manager this season. He has used relievers in very specific roles and by using four pitchers in an inning, three of whom were used for one batter, he shoehorned himself into a loss.

Ondrusek should never have been able to give up a walk and a hit to open the eighth because he shouldn't have been used to pitch to the one batter in the seventh, who he struck out. Marshall would have also been available to come in during the eighth, had Arredondo been used to pitch against Fielder (who ate Marshall's lunch a second time this series), as he is significantly more effective against LHB in his career.

Instead Baker micromanaged everything, trying to find specific solutions to specific problems without any real analysis of the game as a whole at that moment in time. And the monster reared its ugly head when Chapman needed to be brought in for a six out save opportunity because no other option in the bullpen existed, as evidenced by Baker's bullpen usage this season.

Kc61
06-11-2012, 11:00 AM
Instead Baker micromanaged everything, trying to find specific solutions to specific problems without any real analysis of the game as a whole at that moment in time. And the monster reared its ugly head when Chapman needed to be brought in for a six out save opportunity because no other option in the bullpen existed, as evidenced by Baker's bullpen usage this season.

I don't agree at all. But mostly, why is it a crime for Chapman to pitch two innings? He had a three run lead. What's the big deal with that?

He wasn't very good, and he got some bad breaks, but Aroldis was well rested coming into this game. Some of us on the game thread speculated that he might indeed work the last two.

He just didn't have his best stuff, and he got some bad breaks.

If people want to pick on somebody, how about Sean Marshall? He came in to get Fielder both Saturday and Sunday and failed both times.

Plus Plus
06-11-2012, 11:10 AM
I don't agree at all. But mostly, why is it a crime for Chapman to pitch two innings? He had a three run lead. What's the big deal with that?

He wasn't very good, and he got some bad breaks, but Aroldis was well rested coming into this game. Some of us on the game thread speculated that he might indeed work the last two.

He just didn't have his best stuff, and he got some bad breaks.

If people want to pick on somebody, how about Sean Marshall? He came in to get Fielder both Saturday and Sunday and failed both times.

I understand your point about Chapman. However, after seeing that only one closer in the last two years has a six out save (Jim Johnson- unless Twitter lied to me...), and considering the fact that Chapman has been used almost exclusively as a one-pitch pitcher this season, I didn't completely agree with the move. As I said before, this is a result of what I consider to be poor bullpen usage in the inning prior. Having Marshall or a fresh-out-of-the-bullpen Ondrusek could have helped once the going got tough.

Did Baker pitch? Of course not. Is the real problem that Marshall, Ondrusek, Arredondo, and Chapman were ineffective? Sure. But at some point, there is a discussion to be had about bullpen usage affecting those margins that games such as this one are won and lost on- otherwise, what discussion can be had?

And regarding Marshall, I completely agree that he laid an egg in this series. Using him again against Fielder after having given up a game winning RBI in the game prior while Arredondo, a lefty killer, was already on the mound is a little silly.

Superdude
06-11-2012, 11:21 AM
Ondrusek didn't pitch badly. He walked the lead off hitter, not good, but then he gave up a bloop. Big deal.

It was a huge deal. On four pitches, he gave away a base to an anemic hitter before the inning even started. He sparked the whole rally.

He did something similar to this the night before, but I don't think it had the same calamitous result. My point is, he doesn't have anywhere near the talent to be one of the "big four" relievers, and if he's going to start failing to do fundamental things like throwing strikes to #8 hitters, what other positive qualities does he have? He's tall...

Hoosier Red
06-11-2012, 11:24 AM
But it isn't about running out of pitchers. Obviously, Chapman, Hoover, LeCure, and Simon (as well as Ondrusek, having ended the previous inning) were available at the start of the eighth. I think a lot of it has to do with Baker's pattern of bullpen usage as the Reds manager this season. He has used relievers in very specific roles and by using four pitchers in an inning, three of whom were used for one batter, he shoehorned himself into a loss.

Ondrusek should never have been able to give up a walk and a hit to open the eighth because he shouldn't have been used to pitch to the one batter in the seventh, who he struck out. Marshall would have also been available to come in during the eighth, had Arredondo been used to pitch against Fielder (who ate Marshall's lunch a second time this series), as he is significantly more effective against LHB in his career.

Instead Baker micromanaged everything, trying to find specific solutions to specific problems without any real analysis of the game as a whole at that moment in time. And the monster reared its ugly head when Chapman needed to be brought in for a six out save opportunity because no other option in the bullpen existed, as evidenced by Baker's bullpen usage this season.

Last night was managed differently than the rest of the season has been. So either he's been mismanaging the whole season and pulled the right levers last night, or he's generally been taking the right approach with Ondrusek/Arrendondo and Marshall the rest of the season and was too matchup happy last night.

IMO, he's generally pushed the right buttons for the season. There's a reason the team has as good of a bullpen ERA as it does. But last night he probably went a little happy with the matchups in part because he knew he had Chapman rested and available for 6 outs if he needed him.

OnBaseMachine
06-11-2012, 12:56 PM
This. Using Marshall as a LOOGY is just poor managing.

Agreed. Anyone else think Walt Jocketty is fuming over Dusty's usage of Marshall this season? Walt didn't trade three players for Marshall and then sign him to a three year extension just to be a LOOGY. The guy has been one of the best setup men in all of baseball the last 2-3 years, against both RH and LH batters, and Dusty only uses him as a LOOGY.

I look forward to the day Dusty is no longer the manager of this ballclub.

Cedric
06-11-2012, 01:02 PM
A little over a month ago, people wanted Ondrusek to be the closer.

They weren't looking very hard then. He doesn't project to help this team long term. Just a decent arm and more proof that you don't or shouldn't trade anything of value for relief arms. Here today, gone today.

Cedric
06-11-2012, 01:03 PM
Agreed. Anyone else think Walt Jocketty is fuming over Dusty's usage of Marshall this season? Walt didn't trade three players for Marshall and then sign him to a three year extension just to be a LOOGY. The guy has been one of the best setup men in all of baseball the last 2-3 years, against both RH and LH batters, and Dusty only uses him as a LOOGY.

I look forward to the day Dusty is no longer the manager of this ballclub.

Then fire the guy and bring someone else in. I'm pretty sick of archaic baseball men managing my favorite team.

Big Klu
06-11-2012, 01:16 PM
What it comes down to is that four relievers--the top four relievers on the team--all failed to do their job in the same game. If any one of them had gotten the outs he was supposed to get, then we likely wouldn't be having this discussion and the Reds would have won two out of three.

It's too bad, because Homer deserved better.

lollipopcurve
06-11-2012, 02:11 PM
Generally, Baker is relying too much on four relievers. He needs to use Simon and Lecure more in the later innings, and to use the "big four" less. Over the last week I've started to see overuse of the main four relievers which is a bad trend and is impairing their effectiveness.

I've been saying this about Baker's BP usage for years now. He uses a two-tier system (really, 3 tiers when you consider how he uses his closer), and it is absolutely unsustainable, especially on a good team.

I've been working up some basic stats on this for this year only, and it is clear so far that Baker is unsurpassed in the NL in his reliance on his top 4 relievers for innings pitched. When you factor in that one his top 4 is his closer, and it's even more extreme.

Kc61
06-11-2012, 02:18 PM
Agreed. Anyone else think Walt Jocketty is fuming over Dusty's usage of Marshall this season? Walt didn't trade three players for Marshall and then sign him to a three year extension just to be a LOOGY. The guy has been one of the best setup men in all of baseball the last 2-3 years, against both RH and LH batters, and Dusty only uses him as a LOOGY.

I look forward to the day Dusty is no longer the manager of this ballclub.

You may be right that Marshall shouldn't be a LOOGY.

But he is an excellent lefty set up man. He is the guy you would presumably want to face Prince Fielder. Whether he should have pitched longer or shorter, the Marshall/Fielder matchup made perfect sense to me.

Sean didn't get it done. Twice. Whether or not a LOOGY, that's on Sean IMO.

Tom Servo
06-11-2012, 02:21 PM
Hopefully the seemingly soon return of Bray will be the end of Marshall as a LOOGY.

Kc61
06-11-2012, 03:28 PM
Hopefully the seemingly soon return of Bray will be the end of Marshall as a LOOGY.



I guess I don't understand all this. I know people are frustrated with the losses this weekend.

But how would Marshall being a LOOGY or not being a LOOGY have helped him against Fielder last night?

Call him a LOOGY, a set up man, a closer, a fine gentleman, a former Cub, a tall guy, whatever you want.

The guy is a good lefty reliever. Seemingly, Dusty was correct to have him face Fielder. Seemingly he should have gotten it done. Unfortunately, he didn't. What does being a LOOGY or not have to do with anything?

lollipopcurve
06-11-2012, 03:49 PM
What does being a LOOGY or not have to do with anything?

When he's coming in for a guy that already does very well vs. lefties (Arredondo), it's using two pitchers when you need only one. Overuse.

Kc61
06-11-2012, 04:09 PM
When he's coming in for a guy that already does very well vs. lefties (Arredondo), it's using two pitchers when you need only one. Overuse.

Well, the contrary argument is that Marshall only faced one batter, a few pitches, what's the big deal, how does that cause overuse.

More to the point - Marshall and Jose were used in the seventh. That inning did not cause the loss. The Reds still led by three.

The pitchers who gave up the lead were Ondrusek and Chapman in the 8th, and a lot of bad luck and questionable calls contributed.

You can re-construct the game a zillion ways. But the Reds had Ondrusek and Chapman available in the 8th. That should should be enough to hold down the Tigers three runs up. Particularly with Cabrera and Fielder being out of the way, having hit in the 7th.

Logan made a bad walk and got stung by a bloop. Chapman was hit harder than usual and had some bad luck. In the 8th. The LOOGY use of Marshall earlier may be of general interest, but did not cause last night's loss.

BuckeyeRedleg
06-12-2012, 11:31 AM
A little over a month ago, people wanted Ondrusek to be the closer.

I'm not sure why.

Logan Ondrusek is not good. If anything, he is bad. He might have decent stuff and he might be real tall, but so far in his career he has not been able to translate those qualities into a decent relief pitcher, especially one that is constantly placed into high-leverage situations.

Last year there were 43 NL relief pitchers with at least 60 IP. Ondrusek had 61.1. Of those 43, he ranked:

#38 of 43 in K/9 (6.02)
#36 of 43 in BB/9 (4.11)
#39 of 43 in fWAR (-.02)

This would put him into the bottom 15% of all NL relief pitchers with at least 60 IP.


So far this year Ondrusek has 24.2 IP. There are 73 NL relief pitchers with at least 20 IP. Of those 73, he ranks:

#64 of 73 in K/9 (5.84)
#51 of 73 in BB/9 (4.38)
#66 of 73 in fWAR (-.03)

The only thing keeping him out of the lowest 10% of all relief pitchers (with at least 20 IP) is the high number of relief pitchers with high BB rates this early on. Ondrusek’s BB rate is actually worse than it was last year (4.38 to 4.11), but he ranks better in this category this year (#51 of 73 compared with #36 of 43 last year).

Ondrusek is a below-average relief pitcher. He is replacement-level at best and I’m not sure why he’s viewed as more than that by the Walt, Dusty, the Reds, and so many in this fanbase.

Kc61
06-12-2012, 11:36 AM
Ondrusek is a below-average relief pitcher. He is replacement-level at best and I’m not sure why he’s viewed as more than that by the Walt, Dusty, the Reds, and so many in this fanbase.

Ondrusek has had periods of excellence. His difficulty seems to be that he wears down.

If you look at the first few months of 2011 and the first part of this season, you see a very good reliever.

It doesn't seem to hold up over the course of the season, however.

I think with adequate rest he's a pretty good reliever. But there's no denying that his season-wide numbers could be a lot better.

Would also note that last year he was hurt about mid-season and the second half was limited due to injury and pretty ineffective as I recall. So that impacted his numbers.

_Sir_Charles_
06-12-2012, 11:54 AM
But keeping those guys in the game longer shouldn't have increased our chances of winning.

Each resulted in a better match up for us, and we didn't run out of pitchers.

Posters arguing about leaving Marshall in longer isn't about him having a better chance of getting Young out. It's about Ondrusek giving up a walk and a hit to open the 8th.

Baker should have chosen a different route to take becuase this one didn't work. I think that's the argument. I don't think anyone is saying that he put inferior choices in there to face certain batters.

Again, it's not like he ran out of pitchers.

Nail...meet head. :thumbup:

camisadelgolf
06-12-2012, 11:59 AM
I'm okay with Ondrusek in the bullpen, but he has no business working high-leverage situations. His luck is due to run out, and since Dusty fails to realize that, I'm worried it's going to happen at the worst possible times i.e. when the game is on the line.

WVRedsFan
06-12-2012, 12:17 PM
I'm okay with Ondrusek in the bullpen, but he has no business working high-leverage situations. His luck is due to run out, and since Dusty fails to realize that, I'm worried it's going to happen at the worst possible times i.e. when the game is on the line.This is exactly how I feel. Wouldn't hurt to try Simon, but I believe he'll be sent down when Bray comes back. that's a shame because I really have no faith in Bray. JMO.

camisadelgolf
06-12-2012, 12:23 PM
This is exactly how I feel. Wouldn't hurt to try Simon, but I believe he'll be sent down when Bray comes back. that's a shame because I really have no faith in Bray. JMO.
Simon can't be sent down without being exposed to waivers. I'm sure someone would take him. I think Hoover will be optioned when Bray comes back.

WVRedsFan
06-12-2012, 12:27 PM
Simon can't be sent down without being exposed to waivers. I'm sure someone would take him. I think Hoover will be optioned when Bray comes back.I should have known that. I've asked this, but who goes down when Masset come back? LeCure?

Kc61
06-12-2012, 12:32 PM
This is exactly how I feel. Wouldn't hurt to try Simon, but I believe he'll be sent down when Bray comes back. that's a shame because I really have no faith in Bray. JMO.

Simon isn't going anywhere. He started 16 games last season, he is the Reds' emergency starter, long reliever, occasionally a short reliever. If I recall correctly, he was let go by the Orioles because he has no options, but even if he does, he is staying IMO.

If Bray comes back soon, or Masset, I'd expect Hoover to go down to AAA. (Unless somebody is on the DL from overwork by then.)

Bray is a good reliever, my problem with him is that he isn't on the field that much. He's had a number of injuries over the years. When you have a lefty closer, it's not bad to have two other lefty relievers for matchups during the game.

Kc61
06-12-2012, 12:36 PM
I should have known that. I've asked this, but who goes down when Masset come back? LeCure?

When Bray and Masset are both ready, the Reds will have a decision to make. I don't think there's an obvious answer to your question.

Lecure and Simon have been good, I do not see the Reds sending them out. I do see Hoover going down, he needs to work on throwing fewer fly balls.

If someone isn't doing well (Ondrusek?) I could see a DL stint. But after Hoover goes down, if he does, there is no obvious second guy to "cut."

camisadelgolf
06-12-2012, 12:39 PM
Reds pitchers with options:
Sam LeCure
Logan Ondrusek
Johnny Cueto
J.J. Hoover
Mike Leake
Mat Latos
Aroldis Chapman

I think Hoover is the first choice to go down. The second choice comes down to LeCure, Ondrusek, or Leake imo.

DGullett35
06-12-2012, 12:53 PM
I think Hoover will get sent down. IMO Masset will be out for the year. Just too many setbacks with him and I have a funny feeling about him not returning. Simon deserves to stay with the club and Ive said alot here recently that I would like for him to pitch in high leverage situations. The guy can do it all hes not just a long man. He can start, long relief, short relief and if Im not mistaken the Orioles even tried him at closer for some time. I think hes done a good job and it wouldnt hurt to bring someone different in late in the ballgame other than the same 3 of Arredondo, Marshall, and Logan. LeCure is our long man. We don't need 2 of them

Superdude
07-06-2012, 02:11 AM
So uh...that was appalling. Why has this not happened yet?

reds44
07-06-2012, 02:15 AM
Simon really isn't the answer either. The injuries are really starting to show in the pen.

corkedbat
07-06-2012, 02:17 AM
I'd reduce the pen by one and Ondrusek would be the one.

BuckeyeRedleg
07-06-2012, 02:20 AM
I'd reduce the pen by one and Ondrusek would be the one.

I'm not sure he deserves to be on the 40-man. Over the last two years, he's one of the worst relievers in baseball.

Who in the front office is he related to?

Superdude
07-06-2012, 02:24 AM
Simon really isn't the answer either. The injuries are really starting to show in the pen.

Simon's averaging a K an inning and has a sub two ERA. Maybe not the perfect answer, but Ondrusek is just laughable in the set up role at this point.

reds44
07-06-2012, 02:25 AM
Simon's averaging a K an inning and has a sub two ERA. Maybe not the perfect answer, but Ondrusek is just laughable in the set up role at this point.
He's been pitching in mop up duty. He's 31 years old with a career 1.45 WHIP and 4.70 ERA. He is not the answer.

Superdude
07-06-2012, 02:51 AM
He's been pitching in mop up duty. He's 31 years old with a career 1.45 WHIP and 4.70 ERA. He is not the answer.

I don't see why age and current role are relevant. Half of his career innings are as a starter in the AL east, so those can be taken with a grain of salt.

I see a guy with great stuff and solid number so far as a bullpen arm. I'll take everyday in the later innings over Ondrusek's throw it up and hope nothing bad happens approach.

Kc61
07-06-2012, 03:14 PM
Reds relief from the right hand side could be better.

Hoover is pitching very well at AAA. Bring him up, trade off somebody or cut Bray.

mdccclxix
07-06-2012, 03:17 PM
I've always liked Lecure better than Ondrusek, I'd flip their roles for a while and see what happens. Lecure has a putaway pitch on that outside corner.