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View Full Version : Where is JJ Hoover?



dougdirt
06-11-2012, 07:47 AM
Can someone help me put up some fliers around town?

This guy has pitched twice since May 28th. All he has done is perform since coming up. 15.2ip, 9h, 6bb, 15k, 2.87 ERA, 0.96 WHIP.

What does he need to do in order to get into some games?

edabbs44
06-11-2012, 07:58 AM
Espn guys said last night that he was warming up.

dougdirt
06-11-2012, 08:02 AM
Espn guys said last night that he was warming up.

At what point? After we were losing?

I just want to know what his role on the team is? Mop up guy? Go to guy in games we are losing?

edabbs44
06-11-2012, 08:13 AM
At what point? After we were losing?

I just want to know what his role on the team is? Mop up guy? Go to guy in games we are losing?

I think so. He was out there with Simon I believe.

Agreed it is weird. Hopefully there isn't anything wrong.

edabbs44
06-11-2012, 08:25 AM
Eh, Simon and Lecure have similar usage. Maybe just a product of how the games are playing out.

klw
06-11-2012, 09:47 AM
http://www.daytondailynews.com/blogs/content/shared-gen/blogs/dayton/cincinnatireds/entries/2012/05/26/


“When are we supposed to use those guys when our pitchers are going seven innings?” asked manager Dusty Baker. “Everybody has a designated job and our starters are going seven innings in all our games.

“Nevertheless, it is very important that Hoover, LeCure and Simon stay sharp,” said Baker. “It’s a hard thing for the front end of the bullpen to work hard to stay sharp. What you have to determine is how not to overwork and leave it all in the bullpen or when do you underwork and are not sharp in the game.

“Sometimes you realize you might have to work a little harder in the bullpen because sometimes you can decondition by just sitting out there,” Baker added. “And it doesn’t take long. The issue is — what are they supposed to do? How much is too much and how little is too little. So most of them run every day and then do a lot of work after games.”

Kc61
06-11-2012, 10:54 AM
Hoover has allowed four earned runs on five hits in his last two outings over 2.2 innings. His GO/AO is .45. He is a fly ball waiting to leave GABP.

Having said that, I agree that Dusty needs to work in Lecure, Simon and Hoover more to take the pressure off the main four relievers, who are being used a great deal recently.

When Masset or Bray comes back, I expect Hoover to go to AAA to try and work on avoiding all the fly balls. He misses bats so he has value.

dougdirt
06-11-2012, 12:02 PM
http://www.daytondailynews.com/blogs/content/shared-gen/blogs/dayton/cincinnatireds/entries/2012/05/26/

Said that on May 26th. Hoover has pitched three times since then.

Tom Servo
06-11-2012, 12:21 PM
Hoover has allowed four earned runs on five hits in his last two outings over 2.2 innings. His GO/AO is .45. He is a fly ball waiting to leave GABP.

Dusty hasn't ever had a problem running out guys who have given up runs in their recent outings by the bucketful before.

klw
06-11-2012, 12:33 PM
Said that on May 26th. Hoover has pitched three times since then.

Yes it seems he has a job for Hoover and that's that. I thought there was a quote from Dusty where he said that Hoover was off to a good spot but hadn't proved anything yet but I could not find it. It was a few weeks ago, IIRC.

powersackers
06-11-2012, 02:34 PM
It's typical to hold a guy back when a tie game is a possibility. That at least explains last night.

I(heart)Freel
06-11-2012, 10:50 PM
Today he was at the zoo.

*BaseClogger*
06-11-2012, 10:56 PM
:laugh:

Cooper
06-12-2012, 10:02 AM
Does anybody feel like Dusty leaves the starters in too long? We have a lot of 6 inning pitchers and imo Dusty leaver them out there until they run into trouble --it's like he feels he owes it to the starter to let him get into trouble before he makes the switch. This writer would like to see him pull a guy before something goes awry. Bill James used to have a stat called quick hooks and the inverse of such --it just seems like Dusty has a lot of beliefs that are set in stone whether they make sense or not. Pull a guy before things go to pot-- you're allowed to do that. I will take my changces with the bullpen.

Davey Johnson managed here for 2.5 years and he was the master at getting a guy out of there before the trouble hit.

I have no stats to back up my claim -it could well be that i am wrong --i'd like to be is the evidence that he sticks with the starters too long?

RedlegJake
06-12-2012, 02:13 PM
There is nothing wrong with 6 inning pitchers in todays game when you have a full bullpen that you can call on. Keep the starters fresher for the long season, keep the "extra" relievers like Simon, Hoover and LeCure sharper, too. Some of these 7 inning stints by the starters have proven to be an been an inning too long.

klw
06-12-2012, 02:31 PM
Can someone help me put up some fliers around town?
?

You can follow him here. Pretty active twitterer
http://twitter.com/#!/JJ_Hoover

mth123
06-12-2012, 08:20 PM
I'm the first to admit I do my share of griping about guys staying in too long, the wrong gys being used at the worng time and guys being removed too quickly. In the end though, this is a pretty inexact science and moves will simply not work out sometimes. Whenever it doesn't, there is always a case that can be made to second guess the decision no matter what the decision is.

dougdirt
06-12-2012, 11:01 PM
Hoover certainly couldn't have come in to pitch the 9th inning tonight. He needs the rest.

camisadelgolf
06-13-2012, 02:54 AM
Fwiw, I'm told that Hoovers suck. http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_xHaX8r-JvF4/SmdXYrch_cI/AAAAAAAAAAo/m298Ic1LU4U/s320/hoover+vacuum2.jpg

OnBaseMachine
08-22-2012, 01:27 PM
J.J. Hoover now has a shiny 1.22 ERA and 12 BB/55 K in 37 innings at Louisville, not to mention he impressed in his stint in the majors with a 3.00 ERA and 8 BB/19 K in 18 IP. He also has the quality stuff to back it up. I don't understand why this guy isn't in Cincinnati right now. I trust him a lot more than Ondrusek (who is finally in AAA) and Broxton. I know he'll be up in September but I would have brought him up sooner.

Kc61
08-22-2012, 01:37 PM
J.J. Hoover now has a shiny 1.22 ERA and 12 BB/55 K in 37 innings at Louisville, not to mention he impressed in his stint in the majors with a 3.00 ERA and 8 BB/19 K in 18 IP. He also has the quality stuff to back it up. I don't understand why this guy isn't in Cincinnati right now. I trust him a lot more than Ondrusek (who is finally in AAA) and Broxton. I know he'll be up in September but I would have brought him up sooner.

Likely comes up tomorrow when the Reds can have 25 players again, after the Mes suspension is over.

REDREAD
08-22-2012, 01:53 PM
I think a lot of the reason that Hoover has been in AAA is due to the large number of relievers we have. Simon was a huge suprise. My guess is that when the Hoover trade was made, the Reds were hoping either Simon or Hoover would be able to fit in as the mop up guy (along with LeCure)
Hoover had 3 options in the beginning of the year (IIRC), so he got the short end of the stick. It's not really fair, but you can look at it from the front office's point of view.. In life, usually the last employee "in" is the first one to get screwed.. that's just how it works unless the new guy is vastly more qualified.

As far as the use of Hoover when he was here, I think it's appropriate.. bring him along early.. An example is Redmond's debut.. He was thrust onto the front stage out of necessity, but kind of was shocked. Supposedly Redmond had great control in the minors (based on what the TV guys said), but he was wild in his debut.. Hopefully he will do better. I think Dusty is trying to put Hoover in places to succeed and gradually letting him work his way up in the pecking order. He does that with lots of young players, and it's hard to argue with his success.

As far as leaving starters in too long, as I was watching the game last night, I saw Manual of the Phillies leave Cliff Lee in too long.. Lee was over 100 pitches and losing it.. but they stuck with him anyhow.. I figured Phillie Zone was having an ulcer over it :) Dusty's patience/confidence with pitchers has overall paid off though. I thought he was nuts to not pinch hit for Homer last night (The Reds were behind or tied with runners on base, if I recall), but Homer pitched well the rest of the game (IIRC). Kind of hard to argue with that.. Simon or LeCure may have been worse.
I also think that Dusty is looking at the longterm.. He sometimes pushes every starter other than Arroyo to go deeper into games, hoping they will build on it. If a young pitcher is always pulled after 6 or always rescued at the first sign of trouble, he's never going to learn to go deep into games.

Crumbley
08-22-2012, 01:55 PM
Doing odd jobs under the name "Mr. Pilkington."

_Sir_Charles_
08-22-2012, 02:12 PM
Likely comes up tomorrow when the Reds can have 25 players again, after the Mes suspension is over.

I'm not so sure about that. Masset should be ready any day now. I think he'll be up before Hoover, and rightfully so IMO.

traderumor
08-22-2012, 02:13 PM
I'm not so sure about that. Masset should be ready any day now. I think he'll be up before Hoover, and rightfully so IMO.Despite recent performances? Check out the Massett on Rehab thread, not so sure I want him up here over Hoover.

_Sir_Charles_
08-22-2012, 02:16 PM
Despite recent performances? Check out the Massett on Rehab thread, not so sure I want him up here over Hoover.

But isn't there also some sort of rule about his DL stint/rehab, doesn't he either HAVE to be added or optioned? Regardless, while I'll admit Hoover has looked great, he's still a flyball pitcher with limited experience. Sure, he misses bats, but so does Masset and he's got tons more experience. I think we've got enough rookies for a pennant race already.

traderumor
08-22-2012, 02:18 PM
But isn't there also some sort of rule about his DL stint/rehab, doesn't he either HAVE to be added or optioned? Regardless, while I'll admit Hoover has looked great, he's still a flyball pitcher with limited experience. Sure, he misses bats, but so does Masset and he's got tons more experience. I think we've got enough rookies for a pennant race already.You mean like rookies that win you ballgames in Philly?

Tom Servo
08-22-2012, 02:19 PM
I think it's somewhat likely Masset remains on the DL if he still reports pain.

PuffyPig
08-22-2012, 02:20 PM
I thought he was nuts to not pinch hit for Homer last night (The Reds were behind or tied with runners on base, if I recall), but Homer pitched well the rest of the game (IIRC). Kind of hard to argue with that.. Simon or LeCure may have been worse.


Just for the record, Bailey pitched to 3 more guys, recored 1 out, and left with runners on 2nd and 3rd. It didn't work out.

But with the state of our bullpen these days, and with Bailey having pitched excellent last night, I would have left him in. The game was tied, and we ended up getting 2 more runs anyway.

cumberlandreds
08-22-2012, 02:21 PM
But isn't there also some sort of rule about his DL stint/rehab, doesn't he either HAVE to be added or optioned? Regardless, while I'll admit Hoover has looked great, he's still a flyball pitcher with limited experience. Sure, he misses bats, but so does Masset and he's got tons more experience. I think we've got enough rookies for a pennant race already.

They will have to do something with him by August 27th. The way he's been going in Louisville I don't think he should be with the Reds. I have no idea if he has any options left. If he does he needs to be optioned but if not they may want to DL him again or just outright release him. Hoover seems to be the better option at the moment. Really, I don't think it matters if he's a rookie or not. He's the best option in Louisville and should be with the team tomorrow night.

Danny Serafini
08-22-2012, 02:25 PM
But isn't there also some sort of rule about his DL stint/rehab, doesn't he either HAVE to be added or optioned? Regardless, while I'll admit Hoover has looked great, he's still a flyball pitcher with limited experience. Sure, he misses bats, but so does Masset and he's got tons more experience. I think we've got enough rookies for a pennant race already.

They don't have to activate him as soon as his rehab ends. He can sit on the DL longer, he just can't pitch in games. In all likelihood he stays on the DL until Sept. 1, because by being on the DL on August 31 it allows both he and the player he would be replacing in Cincinnati to both be in the playoff pool. If he gets activated August 28 it means someone gets sent down and it's one less player available for the playoffs.

Kc61
08-22-2012, 02:48 PM
I'd love Nick Masset back. A healthy, ready, Masset of 2009.

Otherwise, I think I'd give him as much time as needed.

I expect JJ tomorrow.

_Sir_Charles_
08-22-2012, 06:33 PM
You mean like rookies that win you ballgames in Philly?

No, those rookies have been playing in high pressure situations all season long and have proven that they can do it. The odds of us striking gold again with one this season aren't great.

That's not a knock on Hoover. But I considered Masset to be a cornerstone of this bullpen the past few years, I for one can't wait to see him back in action. If a pen arm goes down, I'm glad we'll still have Hoover in AAA raring to go.

And just to be fair, I haven't looked at Nick's rehab numbers. If he's not ready, I don't want to see him pushed. But from what I was reading, he's ready just needing to go back to back yet. I'll check out his numbers. And to be clear, I'm not AGAINST Hoover coming up. But if it's a call between a healthy JJ and a healthy Nick...I want Nick.

Brutus
08-22-2012, 06:43 PM
I'd love Nick Masset back. A healthy, ready, Masset of 2009.

Otherwise, I think I'd give him as much time as needed.

I expect JJ tomorrow.

I believe you're right, especially for the reason Danny Serafini mentioned in the Masset thread. By holding Masset off until September 1, the Reds give themselves an extra option when setting their playoff roster.

Kc61
08-22-2012, 06:46 PM
No, those rookies have been playing in high pressure situations all season long and have proven that they can do it. The odds of us striking gold again with one this season aren't great.

That's not a knock on Hoover. But I considered Masset to be a cornerstone of this bullpen the past few years, I for one can't wait to see him back in action. If a pen arm goes down, I'm glad we'll still have Hoover in AAA raring to go.

And just to be fair, I haven't looked at Nick's rehab numbers. If he's not ready, I don't want to see him pushed. But from what I was reading, he's ready just needing to go back to back yet. I'll check out his numbers. And to be clear, I'm not AGAINST Hoover coming up. But if it's a call between a healthy JJ and a healthy Nick...I want Nick.

Masset in 2011 averaged 9.7 hits and 4 walks per nine innings for a 1.52 WHIP. He was great in 2009, on and off in 2010 (3.9 walks per nine but good hit rate), and I won't characterize 2011.

Brutus
08-22-2012, 06:51 PM
Masset wasn't great in 2011, but people forget for like almost two months he was sporting a ridiculously unsustainable .480 BABIP.

I don't propose everything that happens north or south of .300 BABIP is lucky or unlucky, but that was absolutely surreal and largely explains so many of those "hits per nine," which is why I think that stat is a little outdated. It might tell us some of what happened, but it tell us nothing about the why.

Kc61
08-22-2012, 07:07 PM
Masset wasn't great in 2011, but people forget for like almost two months he was sporting a ridiculously unsustainable .480 BABIP.

I don't propose everything that happens north or south of .300 BABIP is lucky or unlucky, but that was absolutely surreal and largely explains so many of those "hits per nine," which is why I think that stat is a little outdated. It might tell us some of what happened, but it tell us nothing about the why.

It's not just hits allowed. Masset has allowed four walks per nine innings the last two years. Last season, though, his K rate dropped from 10 to 7.9 while the walk rate remained high.

He had a poor July and horrendous August last year, as he had a terrible April the year before. He did have some good stretches too.

But 2009 was Massett's career year. People then thought he might close. I didn't hear that last season. When he is healthy we'll see which Massett we get.

Brutus
08-22-2012, 07:11 PM
It's not just hits allowed. Masset has allowed four walks per nine innings the last two years. Last season, though, his K rate dropped below 8 while the walk rate remained high.

He had a poor July and horrendous August last year, as he had a terrible April the year before. He did have some good stretches too.

But 2009 was Massett's career year. People then thought he might close. I didn't hear that last season. When he is healthy we'll see which Massett we get.

Well, 2009 was probably an aberration as far as control is concerned. It's the only year that his walk rate wasn't in the 3.8 range (although his first year with the White Sox was significantly higher in almost 40 innings). The issue for Masset probably is less about whether he'll walk guys at last year's rate, as I think that's probably where he'll usually be, but whether he'll strike guys out and continue to keep the ball down as he has for most of his career. If he strikes out 8-9 guys and continues to have a 1.5/1 GB:FB rate, I will most definitely not worry about the walks.

Kc61
08-22-2012, 07:38 PM
Well, 2009 was probably an aberration as far as control is concerned. It's the only year that his walk rate wasn't in the 3.8 range (although his first year with the White Sox was significantly higher in almost 40 innings). The issue for Masset probably is less about whether he'll walk guys at last year's rate, as I think that's probably where he'll usually be, but whether he'll strike guys out and continue to keep the ball down as he has for most of his career. If he strikes out 8-9 guys and continues to have a 1.5/1 GB:FB rate, I will most definitely not worry about the walks.

In 2009, Nick not only had few walks, but his LD rate was an outstanding 13.8%.

Not only were the walks higher in 2011, but his LD rate has increased over two years to 20.3% last season. That's a higher than average line drive rate for NL relievers, just skimming through Fangraphs.

We'll see how he does when and if he's healthy. He'll certainly get a chance he signed a two year contract.