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View Full Version : Fire dusty baker now!!



MartyFan
06-12-2012, 11:19 PM
Why on earth is Dusty Baker the manager of any team let alone MY BELOVED CINCINNATI REDS???

Sunday we watched as he panicked on the heals of a great performance from Homer Bailey to rip through the RP arms.

Tonight, Johnny Cueto pitches all nine frames in an 120+ pitch effort...WHY?


Fire Dusty Baker...

kaldaniels
06-12-2012, 11:23 PM
In.

Captain Hook
06-12-2012, 11:45 PM
Sunday was bad but I'd be willing to bet that we won't see Arredondo, Marshall and Logan all pitch in the same inning of a game again the rest of the year.

I'm really fine with Dusty letting Cueto go in the 9th.The pitch count was a little high but not record breaking.Cueto isn't a rookie and at least from this fans prospective, was looking strong.

I'm no Dusty Baker fan but you don't fire your manager for going 1-1 and making a few questionable decisions along the way.

kbrake
06-12-2012, 11:54 PM
I have no problem at all with Dusty letting Cueto finish it. And I don't blame Dusty for the failures of Sunday as much as I do the guys who he brough in to pitch.

westofyou
06-12-2012, 11:56 PM
Were they high leveraged innings?

PuffyPig
06-13-2012, 12:01 AM
So he went through a bunch of bullpen arms?

Each time he brought in a new guy the match up was better.

He didn't run out of pitchers, what difference did it make?

If he had left in the same guy(s) and failed everyone would have said he should have switched pitchers more.

The pitchers failed, not Dusty.

Plus Plus
06-13-2012, 12:06 AM
So he went through a bunch of bullpen arms?

Each time he brought in a new guy the match up was better.

He didn't run out of pitchers, what difference did it make?

If he had left in the same guy(s) and failed everyone would have said he should have switched pitchers more.

The pitchers failed, not Dusty.

Semantics, because I know that we disagree on this point, but Arredondo has been better than Marshall, both in 2012 and in their careers, at getting LHB out. Add in Marshall's earlier failure against Fielder in the series, and...

Captain Hook
06-13-2012, 12:08 AM
Were they high leveraged innings?

Cueto really didn't have a difficult inning after the 1st and even that wasn't too hard.He allowed two hits along with the lone run for the Indians there and in the following eight innings he only allowed four hits with no more then one in any inning.No walks for Johnny tonight.

The Operator
06-13-2012, 12:09 AM
Were they high leveraged innings?Not from what I saw. Most of the night he was cruising.

In response to the OP: Pitch counts are a good thing to keep an eye on but having some hard set limit isn't the way to go. Not every pitcher is the same, and not every inning is stressful. Yes, 122 is a bit on the high side but it's not like Cueto has been out there going 130+ for the whole season. Every once in a while you can have a guy go a little longer and it's not the end of the world.

And you'll never find a manager who won't occasionally let a guy go a little deeper into the pitch count if he's cruising and got the chance for a complete game. Yes, some guys may not be as lenient, but there doesn't exist a manager who would never let a guy go past some imaginary line in the sand on occasion.

SirFelixCat
06-13-2012, 12:14 AM
I have no problem at all with Dusty letting Cueto finish it. And I don't blame Dusty for the failures of Sunday as much as I do the guys who he brough in to pitch.

This. Props to Dusty for letting him close it out, imo.

PuffyPig
06-13-2012, 12:29 AM
Semantics, because I know that we disagree on this point, but Arredondo has been better than Marshall, both in 2012 and in their careers, at getting LHB out. Add in Marshall's earlier failure against Fielder in the series, and...

Marshall gave up a bloop single to Fielder earlier, but had been something like 5-20 off him before. Plus Fielder is, in his caerer, worse off LH pitching. You have to look at it both ways.

The game was lost in the 8th inning when the best reliever in baseball gave up 4 straight baserunners. it happens, we lost with the best, as it should have been.

Tom Servo
06-13-2012, 12:37 AM
Dusty Baker is history's greatest monster.

Tony Cloninger
06-13-2012, 12:42 AM
He barely broke a sweat. Why are some people so dead set on never allowing a pitcher to ever throw 120 pitches again?

vic715
06-13-2012, 12:46 AM
What happened to the good ole days when 122 was a low pitch count?

westofyou
06-13-2012, 12:53 AM
Dusty Baker is history's greatest monster.

The Ed Gein of the diamond, the Caligula of the sandlot.

BearcatShane
06-13-2012, 12:55 AM
I'm sure the extra 12 pitches more than normal he threw will be the beginning of the end for Johnny Cueto.

RedsManRick
06-13-2012, 01:18 AM
If Cueto wasn't laboring, I see no reason to be a pitch count Nazi. I think we're a bit too conditioned to start freaking out at 100 pitches.

If Dusty pulls him and thw pen blows it again, everybody would be lamenting Dusty's stupidity at pulling him.

pedro
06-13-2012, 01:23 AM
Valdez had like 3 hits, clearly he should have been batting cleanup. I'm angry and I'm not going to take it anymore!!!!!

powersackers
06-13-2012, 01:26 AM
Hardly believe we are even responding in this thread. I don't understand the OPs intent. Is there something wrong with a CG from our TOR starter? Cueto would have had to been dragged off the mound. He conditions himself for nights just like tonight.

VR
06-13-2012, 01:41 AM
Flu ripped through the team, not sure the toll it took on the pitching, but Johnny walked in to the training room before the game and saw many of his teammates hooked up to IV's, and knew at that point he needed to get the team through today.

Well done.

Big Klu
06-13-2012, 02:32 AM
If Cueto wasn't laboring, I see no reason to be a pitch count Nazi. I think we're a bit too conditioned to start freaking out at 100 pitches.

If Dusty pulls him and thw pen blows it again, everybody would be lamenting Dusty's stupidity at pulling him.

If 100 pitches is good, wouldn't 80 pitches be even better?




Flu ripped through the team, not sure the toll it took on the pitching, but Johnny walked in to the training room before the game and saw many of his teammates hooked up to IV's, and knew at that point he needed to get the team through today.

Well done.

Johnny was shaking his head, "No", before Dusty even got to the mound in the ninth. It was like he was saying, "Get back in the dugout and let me do my job." (Though in a respectful way, not like how Jim Palmer used to argue with Earl Weaver.)

reds44
06-13-2012, 02:40 AM
If 100 pitches is good, wouldn't 80 pitches be even better?





Johnny was shaking his head, "No", before Dusty even got to the mound in the ninth. It was like he was saying, "Get back in the dugout and let me do my job." (Though in a respectful way, not like how Jim Palmer used to argue with Earl Weaver.)
And if 120 pitches is fine, wouldn't 140 be okay too? It goes both ways.

It was 7-1. Considering how little Simon, Hoover, and LeCure pitch it was really unnecessary to stretch him as far as they did.

As for Sunday, I don't know how anybody can defend him using Arredondo and Marshall for one batter each and causing one of Ondrusek or Chapman to pitch more than an inning. It was brutal pen management.

Benihana
06-13-2012, 02:51 AM
I have a lot of beefs with Dusty Baker, but letting Cueto finish that game is not one of them.

Big Klu
06-13-2012, 03:04 AM
And if 120 pitches is fine, wouldn't 140 be okay too? It goes both ways.

It was 7-1. Considering how little Simon, Hoover, and LeCure pitch it was really unnecessary to stretch him as far as they did.

As for Sunday, I don't know how anybody can defend him using Arredondo and Marshall for one batter each and causing one of Ondrusek or Chapman to pitch more than an inning. It was brutal pen management.

I have no problem with going over 120 pitches. Would I do it every game? No, because often a pitcher who has thrown a lot of pitches has labored or struggled during the game. (See Justin Verlander on Saturday.) But I see no problem in allowing a pitcher who was in cruise control mode the entire game to finish what he started. I still do not understand how 100 became the hard deck. If there is any evidence that shows that the 100-pitch mark (or 120, for that matter) is where the cliff is located, I would like to see it.

Do we know how many relievers weren't puking? No, but Dusty does. Maybe he decided to give the healthy pitchers a night off because he will need them tomorrow. Cueto didn't have a stressful inning all night.

As for the relievers on Sunday, are we now conditioned to believe that they are china dolls who can't possibly pitch more than one inning? They were rested, and they had a scheduled off day on Monday. The problem wasn't in how they were used. The problem was that all four of them failed to do their job in the same game.

OnBaseMachine
06-13-2012, 03:16 AM
I don't mind pushing a starter to 120 pitches every once in a while, but in a 7-1 ballgame? Not a fan of that. That would have been a great time to bring Hoover or Simon in and let Cueto rest.

Crumbley
06-13-2012, 03:38 AM
I don't have that kind of authority. I'll pass it along to Bob.

cincyinco
06-13-2012, 04:03 AM
The hang wringing over 120 pitches through 9 full innings is silly. Pitches thrown is important, but some arbitrary number of 100 is the end all be all? I don't buy it. If this was 120 pitches through 6 or 7, then yeah, thats a bit different. But through 9? Once? From you're ace? Who's lauded for his work and conditioning ethic? Big whoop.

Why you crying?

redsmetz
06-13-2012, 06:11 AM
Why on earth is Dusty Baker the manager of any team let alone MY BELOVED CINCINNATI REDS???

Sunday we watched as he panicked on the heals of a great performance from Homer Bailey to rip through the RP arms.

Tonight, Johnny Cueto pitches all nine frames in an 120+ pitch effort...WHY?


Fire Dusty Baker...

I'm guessing we would be the first club in history to fire their manager after winning a game and still being in first place (having moved out of tie). I said this early on this year, it's going to be a long season with folks griping about Dusty. But maybe it's working. I'm wondering if we can set the record this season for threads suggesting Dusty needs to go and bellyache our way to a championship.

PuffyPig
06-13-2012, 07:35 AM
I don't mind pushing a starter to 120 pitches every once in a while, but in a 7-1 ballgame? Not a fan of that. That would have been a great time to bring Hoover or Simon in and let Cueto rest.

One could also argue that the time to let a pitcher go 120 pitches is in a 7-1 game where he hasn't thrown any tough innings, he's throwing strikes, and the other team is swinging away in the bottom of the night.

Especially on a night the bullpen crew was ravaged by the flu.

Cueto wasn't labouring in the least, and was throwing as hard in the 9th as he was in the 1st.

dougdirt
06-13-2012, 08:09 AM
What happened to the good ole days when 122 was a low pitch count?

When it was the norm, guys were better prepared for it. It hasn't been the norm for a long time now because guys are brought up differently. Most pitchers simply can't do that day in and day out anymore because of how the game is. They grow up with pitch counts from the age 8 and up. When you get to the Major Leagues today, you can't take certain times off and just toss at 80% up there like you used to when most teams shortstop, second baseman and center fielder came to the plate. Even the Reds, who have poor hitting shortstop and center fielder right now, can take you deep on just about any pitch. Didn't used to be that way. Guys were able to take batters off. Can't do that any more. Add it all up and those "good ole days" are long gone.

dougdirt
06-13-2012, 08:11 AM
I wasn't a fan of Cueto going back for the 9th. JJ Hoover hasn't pitched since the 5th of June and has only pitched twice since May 28th. 6 run lead means pull your starter who is at 112 pitches and put in the guy who hasn't had any action in a week.

lollipopcurve
06-13-2012, 08:28 AM
There have been several off days lately -- I believe Cueto has had an extra day each of his last two starts. So, I am not all that bothered by it. I remember reading that the Red Sox used to watch pitch counts over a 3-start period, never letting their pitchers exceed a certain total number for 3 consecutive games. This is what I would hope Baker would do with Cueto -- if he's pushed a little far in a game, ease back in the game or two after that.

RedFanAlways1966
06-13-2012, 08:31 AM
Fire a manager who has a team that is currently in 1st place? I think it has happened before, but it seems strange. Perhaps we should fire fans who seem to have forgotten this team has won their division one time in 16 years. Oh yeah, Dusty was the manager of that one division winning team.

cumberlandreds
06-13-2012, 08:34 AM
All I ask the OP is that if you fire Baker now who would you replace him with that would be significantly better? In the middle of season you aren't going to find anyone better. In the off season you might. But doing it now just does no good unless Dusty has totally lost the team. There is certainly no indication of that.

dougdirt
06-13-2012, 08:40 AM
Fire a manager who has a team that is currently in 1st place? I think it has happened before, but it seems strange. Perhaps we should fire fans who seem to have forgotten this team has won their division one time in 16 years. Oh yeah, Dusty was the manager of that one division winning team.

Did they win because of the manager or because of the players? Moving forward, do you think if you switch managers this team is still going to win? I think in the end, a manager hurts a team more than he helps it. Talent wins, but misusing that talent doesn't. Managers who misuse their talent less do better. I can't say that I have much faith in Dusty not using his talent incorrectly.

mdccclxix
06-13-2012, 09:03 AM
And every fire Dusty fan has "the" way to handle talent the best in their mind. Since managers are intercessors on all holy empirical baseball data, and trendy mores, they can only be like static on the phone line - never anything but a stain on the mind of a fan. Even the best get run out of town eventually. People know this, but it never stops the next manager from getting fired for things they don't deserve. Indeed, if enough fans moan and groan about a manager, he's gone. I love it, managers can only screw things up or stay out of the way, dummy!

mdccclxix
06-13-2012, 09:04 AM
Fire a manager who has a team that is currently in 1st place? I think it has happened before, but it seems strange. Perhaps we should fire fans who seem to have forgotten this team has won their division one time in 16 years. Oh yeah, Dusty was the manager of that one division winning team.

+1 I think you may have a website in the making: www.firefans.com

bucksfan2
06-13-2012, 09:20 AM
I don't mind pushing a starter to 120 pitches every once in a while, but in a 7-1 ballgame? Not a fan of that. That would have been a great time to bring Hoover or Simon in and let Cueto rest.

I don't necessarily disagree with you. I thought Cueto was all but done after the 8th inning but was pretty impressed when Dusty sent him out there for the 9th. I am tired of managers pidgeonholing pitchers to an arbitrary pitch count. The only reason 100 is used is because its a nice round number. Why not 90 or 108?

Dusty could have gotten Hoover or Simon work but with reports of many Reds players having flu like symptons who knew if those two were experiencing them. No need to burn your high leverage arms in a 7-1 game.

kaldaniels
06-13-2012, 09:24 AM
Wow, I'm kind of surprised by some of the remarks in this thread. However, how many of you actually agree with the premise of this thread? That Dusty Baker should be fired right now?

dougdirt
06-13-2012, 09:28 AM
Wow, I'm kind of surprised by some of the remarks in this thread. However, how many of you actually agree with the premise of this thread? That Dusty Baker should be fired right now?

Depends on who would take over the job, but I don't like Dusty Baker as a manager for a team I root for. I think he has more warts than he has positive attributes and his warts show up nearly on a daily basis, where as his positive attributes do not. I think he hurts the team more than he helps it. He keeps his players happy and I think he can manage the egos well. I think when it comes to actual management of the game, it passed him by a long time ago.

Hoosier Red
06-13-2012, 09:30 AM
When it was the norm, guys were better prepared for it. It hasn't been the norm for a long time now because guys are brought up differently. Most pitchers simply can't do that day in and day out anymore because of how the game is. They grow up with pitch counts from the age 8 and up. When you get to the Major Leagues today, you can't take certain times off and just toss at 80% up there like you used to when most teams shortstop, second baseman and center fielder came to the plate. Even the Reds, who have poor hitting shortstop and center fielder right now, can take you deep on just about any pitch. Didn't used to be that way. Guys were able to take batters off. Can't do that any more. Add it all up and those "good ole days" are long gone.

Even in the "good ole days", I'm guessing that 122 pitches would have been higher than normal. Not only could you take a batter off now and then, but there wasn't as much value in pushing up a pitcher's pitch count then as now correct?

Maybe I'm wrong and the average pitches per plate appearance is the same, but I'd love to see the numbers.

traderumor
06-13-2012, 10:35 AM
Hilarious. Dusty played the end of the Detroit game EXACTLY the way it is recommended day after day in bullpen usage debates, the results are poor, so now he should be fired for DOING EXACTLY WHAT SO MANY PEOPLE ON THIS BOARD (and on WLW) HAVE BEEN BEGGING HIM TO DO.

Last night, Cueto cruised, a classic complete game performance. A perfect example of the guideline nature of pitch counts that some like to turn into a hard standard based on dubious claims made by a sportswriter.

dougdirt
06-13-2012, 10:39 AM
Hilarious. Dusty played the end of the Detroit game EXACTLY the way it is recommended day after day in bullpen usage debates, the results are poor, so now he should be fired for DOING EXACTLY WHAT SO MANY PEOPLE ON THIS BOARD (and on WLW) HAVE BEEN BEGGING HIM TO DO.

Last night, Cueto cruised, a classic complete game performance. A perfect example of the guideline nature of pitch counts that some like to turn into a hard standard based on dubious claims made by a sportswriter.

This isn't anything like the end of the Detroit game.

traderumor
06-13-2012, 10:40 AM
This isn't anything like the end of the Detroit game.What?

RichRed
06-13-2012, 10:41 AM
I have a lot of beefs with Dusty Baker, but letting Cueto finish that game is not one of them.

Ditto.

CySeymour
06-13-2012, 10:44 AM
Depends on who would take over the job, but I don't like Dusty Baker as a manager for a team I root for. I think he has more warts than he has positive attributes and his warts show up nearly on a daily basis, where as his positive attributes do not. I think he hurts the team more than he helps it. He keeps his players happy and I think he can manage the egos well. I think when it comes to actual management of the game, it passed him by a long time ago.

You're absolutely correct, Doug. However, do you think you could go out right now and get a manager to take over the team for the rest of the season who would be appreciably better? Personally, I think the odds are very slim that could happen. Even for next season, who is out there that the Reds COULD get that is going to be head and shoulders better then Dusty? Yes, Francona does not have a managers job right now, but would he come to Cincy? I have my doubts.

redsmetz
06-13-2012, 10:45 AM
This isn't anything like the end of the Detroit game.

Well, you're right there, Doug. As you said, the players win the games, not the manager. I assume the converse is true too. So in yesterday's game, the pitcher did his job and we won. In the final Detroit game, they didn't and we lost. Those are entirely different.

dougdirt
06-13-2012, 10:48 AM
You're absolutely correct, Doug. However, do you think you could go out right now and get a manager to take over the team for the rest of the season who would be appreciably better? Personally, I think the odds are very slim that could happen. Even for next season, who is out there that the Reds COULD get that is going to be head and shoulders better then Dusty? Yes, Francona does not have a managers job right now, but would he come to Cincy? I have my doubts.

I won't pretend to act like I know who would make a good manager. We simply don't have enough information on guys who haven't managed in the Majors and even some of them, we don't know how much of things are their doing or are being implemented by the GM.

dougdirt
06-13-2012, 10:50 AM
What?

How is it anything like the Detroit game? Larger lead, less innings to work with.

CySeymour
06-13-2012, 10:50 AM
I won't pretend to act like I know who would make a good manager. We simply don't have enough information on guys who haven't managed in the Majors and even some of them, we don't know how much of things are their doing or are being implemented by the GM.

Fair enough!

RANDY IN INDY
06-13-2012, 10:52 AM
No problem with Cueto finishing the game last night. Nobody wants him to throw that many pitches all the time, but he was cruising last night. and had really good stuff.

As far as the fire Dusty Baker stuff, a lot of people are going to jump on every opportunity, regardless. I don't have any more problem with Dusty than anyone else that would manage the Reds, this side of Sparky Anderson.

fisch11
06-13-2012, 10:54 AM
I wasn't a fan of Cueto going back for the 9th. JJ Hoover hasn't pitched since the 5th of June and has only pitched twice since May 28th. 6 run lead means pull your starter who is at 112 pitches and put in the guy who hasn't had any action in a week.

I see your point, but the Reds may not see Hoover getting work as a priority with Bray close to returning. Pure speculation on my part of course, but Hoover is more than likely the guy going down with Bray is ready.

traderumor
06-13-2012, 10:55 AM
How is it anything like the Detroit game? Larger lead, less innings to work with.I'm not understanding your question. Dusty is advised to use the bullpen like he did Sunday, well, pretty much after every game. Use your best relievers in high leverage situations regardless of what inning in the game it is. He brought in his best in the 7th and 8th innings, which is the prevailing usage requested on this board night in and night out. You have to be little more than playing contrarian to argue with that.

traderumor
06-13-2012, 11:04 AM
I won't pretend to act like I know who would make a good manager. We simply don't have enough information on guys who haven't managed in the Majors and even some of them, we don't know how much of things are their doing or are being implemented by the GM.Yet you have adequate information on current managers and can evaluate them. Interesting.

dougdirt
06-13-2012, 11:12 AM
I see your point, but the Reds may not see Hoover getting work as a priority with Bray close to returning. Pure speculation on my part of course, but Hoover is more than likely the guy going down with Bray is ready.

That doesn't explain LeCure pitching twice since May 26th or Simon twice since May 28th (like Hoover).

Since May 28th, Logan Ondrusek has pitched as much as LeCure, Simon and Hoover combined. Sean Marshall has pitched as much as those three have, plus two additional games.

The bullpen has had very strange usage patterns lately. You can't just rely on four guys and essentially cut out the other three guys in the bullpen.

dougdirt
06-13-2012, 11:13 AM
Yet you have adequate information on current managers and can evaluate them. Interesting.

On some of them, yes. They have gone through multiple teams (meaning if they are continuously doing the same things, it isn't likely the team mandating it, but the manager making that decision). They have said enough things when asked questions to determine that it is their doing.

dougdirt
06-13-2012, 11:18 AM
I'm not understanding your question. Dusty is advised to use the bullpen like he did Sunday, well, pretty much after every game. Use your best relievers in high leverage situations regardless of what inning in the game it is. He brought in his best in the 7th and 8th innings, which is the prevailing usage requested on this board night in and night out. You have to be little more than playing contrarian to argue with that.

I frankly could not care what "they" say should be done. Right now, the Reds have zero weak pitchers in the bullpen. LeCure is the worst option with his 3.47 ERA. JJ Hoover has an ERA of 2.87. Alfredo Simon has an ERA under 2.00. Those three guys have made 6 total appearances since May 28th. That is as many as Ondrusek has by himself and TWO LESS than Sean Marshall has in the same time period. That is unacceptable. This isn't the 2005 Reds bullpen, where maybe you could understand it. This bullpen has good options no matter who you go to. They are all good. Dusty is using the four guys he deems as the top four way more than the other guys right now.

lollipopcurve
06-13-2012, 11:22 AM
Use your best relievers in high leverage situations regardless of what inning in the game it is. He brought in his best in the 7th and 8th innings, which is the prevailing usage requested on this board night in and night out.

Problem being, "best" is something of a moving target. The guys throwing the best at the start of the year will not necessarily be the guys throwing the best throughout the year. While it's good to have players in roles, IMO you've got to have flexibility also so that as players' performances trend up or down you can shift them around to the team's strategic advantage. There's also the issue of cultivating depth. Especially in the pen, where the usage demands are high and somewhat unpredictable.

traderumor
06-13-2012, 11:37 AM
I frankly could not care what "they" say should be done. Right now, the Reds have zero weak pitchers in the bullpen. LeCure is the worst option with his 3.47 ERA. JJ Hoover has an ERA of 2.87. Alfredo Simon has an ERA under 2.00. Those three guys have made 6 total appearances since May 28th. That is as many as Ondrusek has by himself and TWO LESS than Sean Marshall has in the same time period. That is unacceptable. This isn't the 2005 Reds bullpen, where maybe you could understand it. This bullpen has good options no matter who you go to. They are all good. Dusty is using the four guys he deems as the top four way more than the other guys right now.Yea, you'll have that with generalizations. If I wasn't referring to you, then why defend your position?

traderumor
06-13-2012, 11:43 AM
Problem being, "best" is something of a moving target. The guys throwing the best at the start of the year will not necessarily be the guys throwing the best throughout the year. While it's good to have players in roles, IMO you've got to have flexibility also so that as players' performances trend up or down you can shift them around to the team's strategic advantage. There's also the issue of cultivating depth. Especially in the pen, where the usage demands are high and somewhat unpredictable.

You just made a manager's job near impossible. Now they have to try to figure out on any given day who is going to pitch well based on short-term results? Good luck with that bullpen management method.

Honestly, I find it stunning that folks are complaining about Sunday from a results standpoint. Dusty played that like it was a playoff game, there is a lot of complaining about him not treating every game as a "must" game, then he treats it that way, and still folks are posting "Fire Dusty" thoughts.

He should have brought in Sam LeCure, or JJ Hoover, or Alfredo Simon, or Marshall before Arredondo, or let Homer stay in because he was still throwing 94 MPH in the 7th, etc. and so forth. Really, second guessing is OK, but now it just seems to be at the obscurantist level for so many when it comes to Dusty.

It really just goes to show the level of discourse in ORG, and it is not at a very high level at this point in the Board's history.

_Sir_Charles_
06-13-2012, 01:38 PM
And if 120 pitches is fine, wouldn't 140 be okay too? It goes both ways.

It was 7-1. Considering how little Simon, Hoover, and LeCure pitch it was really unnecessary to stretch him as far as they did.

As for Sunday, I don't know how anybody can defend him using Arredondo and Marshall for one batter each and causing one of Ondrusek or Chapman to pitch more than an inning. It was brutal pen management.

Was it unnecessary? Sure. But did Cueto deserve to make the call himself after the gem he'd tossed? Absolutely. Cueto clearly WANTED to finish it out. He can handle 120 pitches. I loathe the 100 pitch count mentality btw. Every pitcher is different and they all have different mechanics which can break down after a while. Cueto's were fine. If there's such a thing as an easy 120 pitches, last night was it.

reds44
06-13-2012, 01:45 PM
I'd rather my prized right hander not throw 125 pitches in a game won by 6 runs, but I guess that's just me.

There was no reason for it. None.

The Voice of IH
06-13-2012, 01:47 PM
With him batting in the eighth I was surprised Baker did not take the opportunity to sit him. But I don't have too much grief over a 125 pitch count. As long as it doesn't happen to often Cueto should be fine.

_Sir_Charles_
06-13-2012, 01:51 PM
I'd rather my prized right hander not throw 125 pitches in a game won by 6 runs, but I guess that's just me.

There was no reason for it. None.

Cueto had a reason. He wanted to finish what he started. Its a matter of pride. He wasn't gassed, his mechanics were still sharp...what's the big deal? People get too easily fixated on that magic number of 100 and then relate pitcher abuse to how far over that number they go. It's absurd.

reds44
06-13-2012, 02:02 PM
You admitted yourself it was unnecessary. I'm fine with Cueto throwing 120+ pitches occasionally, just not in a game won by 6 runs.

_Sir_Charles_
06-13-2012, 02:27 PM
You admitted yourself it was unnecessary. I'm fine with Cueto throwing 120+ pitches occasionally, just not in a game won by 6 runs.

It was also unnecessary for Cueto to pitch yesterday AT ALL. Lots of things are "unnecessary" in baseball. My point was that Cueto, simply put, WANTED to finish the game. Baker was clearly ready to pull him. Considering Cueto's our ace and he'd just pitched a fine game, I think he deserved some say in whether he finished it out or not. Toss in the fact that several guys in the pen were ill, I think it was a GREAT time to let Cueto finish it out.

dougdirt
06-13-2012, 02:30 PM
Was it unnecessary? Sure. But did Cueto deserve to make the call himself after the gem he'd tossed? Absolutely. Cueto clearly WANTED to finish it out. He can handle 120 pitches. I loathe the 100 pitch count mentality btw. Every pitcher is different and they all have different mechanics which can break down after a while. Cueto's were fine. If there's such a thing as an easy 120 pitches, last night was it.

Almost all athletes are going to tell you they want to do that. It is your job as the manager to make the decision for them. Aaron Harang wanted to pitch in San Diego in extra innings. Dusty should have said no. Years later, Harang realizes he shouldn't have. His manager should have known better.

reds44
06-13-2012, 02:34 PM
It was also unnecessary for Cueto to pitch yesterday AT ALL. Lots of things are "unnecessary" in baseball. My point was that Cueto, simply put, WANTED to finish the game. Baker was clearly ready to pull him. Considering Cueto's our ace and he'd just pitched a fine game, I think he deserved some say in whether he finished it out or not. Toss in the fact that several guys in the pen were ill, I think it was a GREAT time to let Cueto finish it out.
What?

RANDY IN INDY
06-13-2012, 02:37 PM
Almost all athletes are going to tell you they want to do that. It is your job as the manager to make the decision for them. Aaron Harang wanted to pitch in San Diego in extra innings. Dusty should have said no. Years later, Harang realizes he shouldn't have. His manager should have known better.

Bob Gibson and Juan Marichal liked to finish games. They're in the Hall of Fame.

_Sir_Charles_
06-13-2012, 02:37 PM
Almost all athletes are going to tell you they want to do that. It is your job as the manager to make the decision for them. Aaron Harang wanted to pitch in San Diego in extra innings. Dusty should have said no. Years later, Harang realizes he shouldn't have. His manager should have known better.

It's also the manager's decision to be able to tell when a guy is gassed or not. These things don't exist in a vacuum. As I said earlier, not all 120 pitched games are the same. 1 game of 120 pitches can be both physically and mentally draining and exhausting, while another can be like tossing the ball with a friend on a hot day. I agree that it's the manager's job to take the ball out of a guys hand even when he wants to keep it. But he also has to know when to trust his players and when to give them some slack.

IMO Baker played it perfectly...BOTH of the last 2 nights. Could he have done it in different ways? Sure. But other than the final results from Sunday, the decision-making was sound.

MikeS21
06-13-2012, 02:45 PM
You admitted yourself it was unnecessary. I'm fine with Cueto throwing 120+ pitches occasionally, just not in a game won by 6 runs.
I don't think Dusty needs to be fired. This board would complain about the new guy just as the they have the last five or six managers BEFORE Dusty. I've been here on RedsZone since the days of Jack McKeon, and there isn't one manager since (including McKeon) who has not had one of these "Fire Him Now!" threads. ALL mangers have their faults and there isn't a guy out there who is going to make everybody happy 100% of the time.

I have NO problem the way Dusty handled the Detroit game on national TV. I'm going to go with my horses rather than the guys who are the mop up pitchers. The horses just didn't get it done. It's not Dusty's fault. If you score six runs, with this pitching staff, 19 out of 20 times, you win the game. Unfortunately, on national TV, we got the one bad game. It happens.

I have no problem with allowing Cueto to go 122 pitches for the complete game. I don't think Dusty needs to let it become a habit, but once in a while isn't going to hurt anything. As someone said, a 122 pitches in five innings is not the same as 122 pitches over nine innings.

Personally, I think it is silly to have all three of LeCure, Hoover, and Simon on the team anyway. The improved rotation is going deeper into ballgames than in past years. Let's face it, the starters are being more pitch efficient and able to go deeper into games. It used to take Cueto and Bailey 100 pitches to get through five or six innings. Now, a 100 pitches seems to get them into the seventh and eight innings. They don't need all three of those guys. When Bray returns, at least one, and hopefully two guys will go.

I'd package LeCure and Simon together and see what kind of left-handed bat I can get in return.

dougdirt
06-13-2012, 02:45 PM
Bob Gibson and Juan Marichal liked to finish games. They're in the Hall of Fame.

Those guys came up with a whole different style of training. Apples and oranges.

_Sir_Charles_
06-13-2012, 02:45 PM
What?

The word "unnecessary" is poorly used there IMO. We didn't NEED Cueto to go 2 innings, 4 innings, 8 innings or 9. We "could" have used different pitchers to get them work. We didn't "need" Cueto to finish that game. It's a matter of choosing which option to go with. You clearly think Dusty should've chosen to pull Cueto to rest him (a whole 10-15 pitches) in favor of pitching a reliever (Hoover maybe) who hadn't gotten alot of work lately but may have been feeling ill. We have no clue who was feeling well and who wasn't. Dusty did (or at least had a MUCH better idea than we did). It's a matter of balancing things. Work load, personalities, endurance, durability, confidence, individual health, team health...there's more into that decision than just..."he's over 100 and we've got the lead...yank him". If there's one thing that Dusty excels at, it's managing his players as individuals. This was one of those instances IMO.

powersackers
06-13-2012, 02:46 PM
You admitted yourself it was unnecessary. I'm fine with Cueto throwing 120+ pitches occasionally, just not in a game won by 6 runs.

Did you see Cueto accept the ball from Hanigan after the final out? Right into his glove and likely into his trophy case. Pride, faith, work ethic and confidence were instilled into our ace. That'll go a long way when he is in a one run game in Sept or Oct.

dougdirt
06-13-2012, 02:47 PM
It's also the manager's decision to be able to tell when a guy is gassed or not. These things don't exist in a vacuum. As I said earlier, not all 120 pitched games are the same. 1 game of 120 pitches can be both physically and mentally draining and exhausting, while another can be like tossing the ball with a friend on a hot day. I agree that it's the manager's job to take the ball out of a guys hand even when he wants to keep it. But he also has to know when to trust his players and when to give them some slack.

IMO Baker played it perfectly...BOTH of the last 2 nights. Could he have done it in different ways? Sure. But other than the final results from Sunday, the decision-making was sound.

Why take the chance to trust the player there? It simply wasn't needed at all. You were up 6 runs in the 9th inning. Stressful or unstressful innings, there was no reason to send Cueto out there.

dougdirt
06-13-2012, 02:48 PM
Did you see Cueto accept the ball from Hanigan after the final out? Right into his glove and likely into his trophy case. Pride, faith, work ethic and confidence were instilled into our ace. That'll go a long way when he is in a one run game in Sept or Oct.

You really think a complete game in his 5th MLB season is what is giving him those things or that it is going to make an ounce of difference in September or October?

WildcatFan
06-13-2012, 02:50 PM
Dusty even said after the game that he went out to get Cueto, and Johnny talked him into ONE more batter. Had that batter gotten on base, Cueto's gone. After facing that many guys, I don't have a problem with just one more. Give the man a shot at what, I assume, his goal is every time out. It's sustained instances of unusually high pitch counts that are going to wear a guy down; not just one.

traderumor
06-13-2012, 02:51 PM
Those guys came up with a whole different style of training. Apples and oranges.
Now wait a minute, I thought today's pitchers had better mechanics, better training, were bigger and stronger, etc., which allows them to throw harder. It would seem that this stuff might also allow them to throw more pitches than those prior era guys?

_Sir_Charles_
06-13-2012, 02:55 PM
Why take the chance to trust the player there? It simply wasn't needed at all. You were up 6 runs in the 9th inning. Stressful or unstressful innings, there was no reason to send Cueto out there.

Okay, why take the chance to trust the player in the 6th inning? Or the 4th? Or whenever. At some point, you DO have to trust the player to some degree. At some point, the player deserves the right to work his way out of a jam or to extend his pitch count a bit to increase his endurance or to get that well-earned complete game. Finishing a game that you started is a HUGE morale boost to both your team and to yourself. It's a HUGE confidence boost. If he was tiring or his mechanics began to get sloppy or even if another hitter reached base...I have no doubt that Dusty would've yanked him. But seriously, just how much of a difference is there between 115 pitches and 125 pitches if they're low stress and done in rhythm?

As for the REASON to send him back out there...I've said it already. Because Cueto wanted to and because Cueto earned the right to. Because it's a confidence boost for him and the team. It's not just about numbers on a spreadsheet, the personal/emotional side of this game plays a BIG role over the course of a season.

dougdirt
06-13-2012, 03:02 PM
Now wait a minute, I thought today's pitchers had better mechanics, better training, were bigger and stronger, etc., which allows them to throw harder. It would seem that this stuff might also allow them to throw more pitches than those prior era guys?

They do have better mechanics, training and are bigger and stronger which allows them to throw harder.

But here is what you are missing: Guys today come up starting at age 7 and 8 with pitch counts. They never build up the kind of stamina that guys used to who came up without pitch counts. The guys who were able to keep their arms attached and make it through the grinder of high school/college/minors had stamina that todays guys never could. Toss in that there aren't batters you can take off these days to 'get a rest' like you used to (shortstops/second baseman/center fielders who were slap hitters who you didn't have to fear and could just go 80% at), and the two situations simply aren't comparable.

This is never going to change because baseball is simply too competitive at such a young age these days. Kids start throwing curveballs at 10 and 11 now. You absolutely must limit their pitches these days. Used to, guys didn't throw curveballs until high school or even later. Now if you pitch and can't throw a curveball you are not pitching for your select team after age 11.

traderumor
06-13-2012, 03:02 PM
You really think a complete game in his 5th MLB season is what is giving him those things or that it is going to make an ounce of difference in September or October?Conversely, are the 10-15 pitches in the 9th inning going to negatively impact his performance in September or October?

These are flesh and blood players. It is amazing to me in working with people what things really make a difference in helping a person perform at a high level, but it is sometimes amazingly small things. I think that is the point here. I also think it is the difference in understanding how to manage people in real life situations versus deadpanning people's methods from the sidelines.

Patrick Bateman
06-13-2012, 03:04 PM
Keeping your players happy is important, and I really do believe that a manager can lose the respect of his players if he doesn't give a longer leash for opportunities such as last night sometimes.

Baker obviously was not comfortable with leaving him in so long as he jumped out of his seat the moment Cueto gave up a man on base. I am fine with the decision to let him finish the game for a few reasons:

1. Baker does not push Cueto like this very often. The odd time likely is not going to be a huge determining factor in a potential injury. Repeated patterns is a bigger issue.

2. Cueto did not have many innings where he threw significant amounts of pitches at one time. I therefore don't believe the total alotment of 125 were a particularly stressful 125.

Considering Baker's overall usage of pitchers this season, the lack of evidence available to suggest that one game such as this would be a contributing factor to injuries, and the fact that nobody here has knowledge of the unwritten rules of respect between a manager and his pitchers, I don't think the decision was heinous, nor do I think the reaction given to Baker is warranted.

dougdirt
06-13-2012, 03:07 PM
Okay, why take the chance to trust the player in the 6th inning? Or the 4th? Or whenever. At some point, you DO have to trust the player to some degree. At some point, the player deserves the right to work his way out of a jam or to extend his pitch count a bit to increase his endurance or to get that well-earned complete game. Finishing a game that you started is a HUGE morale boost to both your team and to yourself. It's a HUGE confidence boost. If he was tiring or his mechanics began to get sloppy or even if another hitter reached base...I have no doubt that Dusty would've yanked him. But seriously, just how much of a difference is there between 115 pitches and 125 pitches if they're low stress and done in rhythm?

As for the REASON to send him back out there...I've said it already. Because Cueto wanted to and because Cueto earned the right to. Because it's a confidence boost for him and the team. It's not just about numbers on a spreadsheet, the personal/emotional side of this game plays a BIG role over the course of a season.

You trust him in the 4th or the 6th because he had 50 and 70 pitches and was going well.

I am sorry, but I don't believe for a second that it is some magical moral boost for him moving forward or the team that he finished the game out instead of someone else. Cueto and the team would be just fine with a 7-1 win if Cueto had 8 outstanding innings and anyone else on the team pitched the 9th. They would have still high fived on the infield after the game and they will still all show up today.

traderumor
06-13-2012, 03:07 PM
They do have better mechanics, training and are bigger and stronger which allows them to throw harder.

But here is what you are missing: Guys today come up starting at age 7 and 8 with pitch counts. They never build up the kind of stamina that guys used to who came up without pitch counts. The guys who were able to keep their arms attached and make it through the grinder of high school/college/minors had stamina that todays guys never could. Toss in that there aren't batters you can take off these days to 'get a rest' like you used to (shortstops/second baseman/center fielders who were slap hitters who you didn't have to fear and could just go 80% at), and the two situations simply aren't comparable.

This is never going to change because baseball is simply too competitive at such a young age these days. Kids start throwing curveballs at 10 and 11 now. You absolutely must limit their pitches these days. Used to, guys didn't throw curveballs until high school or even later. Now if you pitch and can't throw a curveball you are not pitching for your select team after age 11.Chris Welsh has pointed out before that Cueto, as a Dominican pitcher, is accustomed to throwing a lot more than happens in the American system. If Welsh knows this, and I heard him say it, its reasonable to assume that Dusty has access to that same factoid. Maybe there is no hard and fast rule.

dougdirt
06-13-2012, 03:09 PM
Conversely, are the 10-15 pitches in the 9th inning going to negatively impact his performance in September or October?No one can answer that definitively, but there is a chance that they could and for no good reason. And no, his complete game ball at the end of the game isn't a good reason to me when we could have been risking his health. If he had been at 100 pitches, sure, send him out there. But he was over 110.

dougdirt
06-13-2012, 03:11 PM
Chris Welsh has pointed out before that Cueto, as a Dominican pitcher, is accustomed to throwing a lot more than happens in the American system. If Welsh knows this, and I heard him say it, its reasonable to assume that Dusty has access to that same factoid. Maybe there is no hard and fast rule.

Welsh simply is assuming that. He doesn't have a clue and to be honest, neither does Cueto. I doubt he was out there counting his own pitches at 14 and 15. Since he signed with the Reds, he has been on a strict pitch count.

traderumor
06-13-2012, 03:13 PM
No one can answer that definitively, but there is a chance that they could and for no good reason. And no, his complete game ball at the end of the game isn't a good reason to me when we could have been risking his health. If he had been at 100 pitches, sure, send him out there. But he was over 110.That was my point. And your pitch count line in the sand is just as abitrary. I see value in letting him finish the game, esp. in light of his recent struggles. I think Dusty has a better idea of what floats a guys boat than any of us do, and it was clear that was what it was all about.

traderumor
06-13-2012, 03:14 PM
Welsh simply is assuming that. He doesn't have a clue and to be honest, neither does Cueto. I doubt he was out there counting his own pitches at 14 and 15. Since he signed with the Reds, he has been on a strict pitch count.How do you know? Your hubris is humorous :lol:

reds44
06-13-2012, 03:17 PM
I don't want Dusty fired because he left Cueto for another inning last night. There are plenty other better reasons than that.

reds44
06-13-2012, 03:18 PM
Chris Welsh has pointed out before that Cueto, as a Dominican pitcher, is accustomed to throwing a lot more than happens in the American system. If Welsh knows this, and I heard him say it, its reasonable to assume that Dusty has access to that same factoid. Maybe there is no hard and fast rule.
That's ridiculous. Cueto has been in the Reds system since he was, 18? It's not like he came from Cuba or Japan when he was in his mid 20's. Also, Kerry Wood threw something like 200+ pitches in a high school game one time. How'd that one go for him?

I love Cueto and his attitude, but once you get over 110 pitches, you're in the danger zone. We're all hoping Cueto pitches well into October this year, and those last 15 or so pitches just were simply unneeded. Save as many bullets in the chamber as possible.

RANDY IN INDY
06-13-2012, 03:28 PM
Some guys stay on strict pitch counts from the time they are 12 and still get injured. To be honest, it's more about genetics than anything else. Every player is different.

traderumor
06-13-2012, 03:36 PM
That's ridiculous. Cueto has been in the Reds system since he was, 18? It's not like he came from Cuba or Japan when he was in his mid 20's. Also, Kerry Wood threw something like 200+ pitches in a high school game one time. How'd that one go for him?

I love Cueto and his attitude, but once you get over 110 pitches, you're in the danger zone. We're all hoping Cueto pitches well into October this year, and those last 15 or so pitches just were simply unneeded. Save as many bullets in the chamber as possible.The post I was replying to referred to American youth league pitching "standards," as if there is such a thing. It also refuted the point that "pitch count monitoring since youth league means less stamina," since his concept implied that it is just as much a stamina issue as a number of pitches issue. If Cueto built up stamina in youth leagues because Dominican youth leagues are not such slaves to pitch counts, then that should be taken into consideration with decisions like last night.

Again, 110 pitches is arbitrary in your post as well. Pitch counts is a guideline, but it should not be standardized. There is all this discussion about starters, but nowhere near the alarm at the condition of a guy's arm who comes out, rears back and fires twenty pitches at maximum effort as hard as he can, which is a problem as well. All the focus is on the starter pitch count, and it has seemingly became Hoyle in a similar fashion to the evolution of the "closer," its just the way we do things now.

traderumor
06-13-2012, 03:47 PM
BTW, I do agree with Doug on the issue of stamina. For example, when I was a little league pitcher, our league rules were innings based. We could only pitch 6 innings in a week. So, me and another kid split up the games 4 and 2 with two games a week. Then it came tournament time and a pitcher could not pitch back to back games until the semifinals. Guess who pitched well but was out of gas for the 6th inning and had to be lifted and replaced by about our 4th best pitcher? We lost the game too. And my coach second-guessed himself for not building up my stamina to go longer than 4 innings so when I was needed to go longer, it was something I was accustomed to.

kaldaniels
06-13-2012, 04:09 PM
There should be a "pitch count" thread regarding all this. I just want to know who, if you were handed the GM job this instant, would fire Dusty right now as that is what this thread is about. I asked earlier and didn't find any takers...I know you are out there.

powersackers
06-13-2012, 04:31 PM
You really think a complete game in his 5th MLB season is what is giving him those things or that it is going to make an ounce of difference in September or October?

Yes. I've been doing my job for 13 years. A job well done feeling with accolades from my peers doesn't happen often, but I remember when it does happen, especially when times are challenging.

6 out of 129 times Cueto taken the mound he's been able to complete what he's started. I believe it means something (many things) to him. And when he's digging deep in Sept./Oct. it could provide some much needed inspiration.

5.6, 5.7, 5.9, 6.5, 6.7

That's Cuetos avg. innings per start in his career in consecutive season order. He's going longer because he can.

Did Chris Gruler or Ty Howington go 10 pitches too many in a game in the Reds system and it was there downfall?

_Sir_Charles_
06-13-2012, 04:32 PM
You trust him in the 4th or the 6th because he had 50 and 70 pitches and was going well.

I am sorry, but I don't believe for a second that it is some magical moral boost for him moving forward or the team that he finished the game out instead of someone else. Cueto and the team would be just fine with a 7-1 win if Cueto had 8 outstanding innings and anyone else on the team pitched the 9th. They would have still high fived on the infield after the game and they will still all show up today.

Nothing "magical" about it. I'm speaking from experience. It DOES have an effect.

And in the 8th and 9th, he was at 100-115 pitches and was going well. So I take it that the difference for you is that he was over that mystical number of 100 by a certain degree? At what point does going over that number cause concern? How many pitches over 100 is too many? Who makes that decision? What are the variables that differentiate between 10 pitches over and 20 pitches over and the stress on an arm or a psyche? How much does a player's conditioning go into the decision on when and where to cut him off? There are a TON of factors that go into that decision besides "he was over 100 and we had the lead".

And I don't think anybody is arguing the fact that Cueto and the team would've been just "fine" if he'd only gone 8. It's a matter of weighing the costs versus the benefits of letting him pitch that 9th inning. The cost was a few extra pitches on a starters arm. The benefit was psychological for Cueto and the team and possibly physical depending upon the health of the relievers.

Bumstead
06-13-2012, 05:40 PM
He's not going to be fired during the season. His inability to manage a bullpen and to run down the 3-4 bullpen guys he wants to use has been a constant theme in Cincy and elsewhere. As long as he's not extended I will be happy; I just hope the extra pitches in a meaningless inning don't come back to haunt the Reds in the future. Pitchers are never tired and never reach limits in their minds; managers are supposed to use their brains and pick their spots to extend their players, preferably in spots that matter not in 7-1 games. It wasn't a shutout or a no-hitter and it wasn't an important or close game; it's an easy decision for everyone but Dusty.

Again, he's not going to get fired, I will just be happy when he's not extended.

Bum

Bumstead
06-13-2012, 05:43 PM
There should be a "pitch count" thread regarding all this. I just want to know who, if you were handed the GM job this instant, would fire Dusty right now as that is what this thread is about. I asked earlier and didn't find any takers...I know you are out there.

I would have never hired him in the first place. He's not a good fit for this type of team. He was perfect for the veteran-laden San Francisco teams. But that's JMO, and I know you have your own.

mdccclxix
06-13-2012, 05:48 PM
Young Reds players that have seen their careers start well under Baker:

Votto
Cueto
Stubbs
Heisey
Frazier
Cozart
Hanigan
Leake
Chapman
Ondrusek
Janish

I can keep going...

reds44
06-13-2012, 05:52 PM
He's disproven the Dusty like young players farce. Really, he hasn't abused his starters here either. But he's too old school for his own good. He has some seriously fatal flaws.

Degenerate39
06-13-2012, 05:55 PM
Not sure if it's been posted or not but does anyone have a list of Cueto's pitch counts this season?

smith288
06-13-2012, 06:01 PM
Dusty Fires Bakers!

kaldaniels
06-13-2012, 06:25 PM
I would have never hired him in the first place. He's not a good fit for this type of team. He was perfect for the veteran-laden San Francisco teams. But that's JMO, and I know you have your own.

I wouldn't have hired him either, but firing (no pun intended) up a Fire Dusty Baker Now thread after a 122 pitch gem just seemed a bit much. I even said that I would
have pulled Cueto during the game thread.

RedLegsToday
06-13-2012, 06:33 PM
Not sure if it's been posted or not but does anyone have a list of Cueto's pitch counts this season?


Asketh, and thou shall receiveth:

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/gl.cgi?id=cuetojo01&t=p&year=2012

MartyFan
06-13-2012, 06:37 PM
Wow...so this morning when I posted this I wondered how many people would throw themselves from the rooftops at this suggestion...how many would go along with it and how many would think it was a serious call for Dusty to be fired...while I wouldn't cry if he was (since I hate seeing him as manager of the team) we're in first place...not by much...but we're in first place.

edabbs44
06-13-2012, 06:49 PM
I frankly could not care what "they" say should be done. Right now, the Reds have zero weak pitchers in the bullpen. LeCure is the worst option with his 3.47 ERA. JJ Hoover has an ERA of 2.87. Alfredo Simon has an ERA under 2.00. Those three guys have made 6 total appearances since May 28th. That is as many as Ondrusek has by himself and TWO LESS than Sean Marshall has in the same time period. That is unacceptable. This isn't the 2005 Reds bullpen, where maybe you could understand it. This bullpen has good options no matter who you go to. They are all good. Dusty is using the four guys he deems as the top four way more than the other guys right now.

Do you think that those ERAs will hold true over the course of the season? Dusty's job isn't to put in the guy with the best ERA, it's to manage the different areas of the team. And he's been doing a pretty good job of managing the pen, evidenced by your stats.

Orenda
06-13-2012, 07:07 PM
Dusty has gotten better as a manager imo, better with pitchers and good with young players. Hasn't always had a complete set in terms of the lineup. He probably took more share of the heat for the Wood/Prior scenario than he deserved, if you're in a market that big that sells out non-stop yet hasn't won the big one in years, it's an organizational problem more than a managerial one.

_Sir_Charles_
06-13-2012, 07:13 PM
Young Reds players that have seen their careers start well under Baker:

Votto
Cueto
Stubbs
Heisey
Frazier
Cozart
Hanigan
Leake
Chapman
Ondrusek
Janish

I can keep going...

Yep. There are 2 long-standing myths about Baker that IMO he has put FIRMLY to rest. Vet love and young pitcher abuse. He's done exactly the opposite of both of those myths while with Cincy.

I'll agree with others in the fact that he's not a great in-game tactician and his lineups drive me absolutely batty. But outside of those 2 things, I think he's done a fine job in Cincy.

Puffy
06-13-2012, 07:16 PM
He's disproven the Dusty like young players farce. Really, he hasn't abused his starters here either. But he's too old school for his own good. He has some seriously fatal flaws.

How can a manager who has won numerous division titles and a National League pennant have "fatal" flaws?????

I mean, sure he has flaws, but if they were "fatal" wouldn't have all his teams underachieved? Clearly, no matter what others say, all of Dusty's teams have not underachieved. The Chicago Cubs went from 1990 to 2003 without winning a division title - - Dusty managed the 03 team. The Reds went from 1996 to 2010 without one. Dusty managed the 10 team.

Flaws, yes. And many of them. Fatal flaws, errrrrr, no.

nemesis
06-13-2012, 07:58 PM
How can a manager who has won numerous division titles and a National League pennant have "fatal" flaws?????.


Take away Barry Bonds and a team full of PED stars and Dusty wouldn't have won nothing.

You could have managed those Giant teams and won one division title.

kaldaniels
06-13-2012, 08:01 PM
In Dave Cameron's chat today he states after being researched, the correlation between pitch counts and injuries has mostly been debunked.

westofyou
06-13-2012, 08:03 PM
Take away Barry Bonds and a team full of PED stars and Dusty wouldn't have won nothing.

You could have managed those Giant teams and won one division title.

Of course you can think it, but in reality it's nothing but fantasy to think its true

I find it hilarious that folks cannot give the man any credit for anything after 45 years in the game

DGullett35
06-13-2012, 08:05 PM
Teams take on the personalities of their managers, and this Reds team is no different. they seem like a quiet bunch who never get too excited about things good or bad. I say hes the right guy for this team. Let the guy be and if things don't go our way this year hes going to be gone since hes in his last year. I personally get sick and tired of all the "Fire Dusty" talk. The guy has never been as bad as some think. Im not saying I love him or hate him as a manager but hes the manager of our Reds so get used to it. Things will probably change after this year. One question I do have for all the Dusty haters is do you think that this team would suddenly take off if Dusty was fired and someone else was to get hired and start running the ship? I don't think so, and if you ask all 25 guys Id bet that 90% like playing for the guy.

Patrick Bateman
06-13-2012, 08:13 PM
In Dave Cameron's chat today he states after being researched, the correlation between pitch counts and injuries has mostly been debunked.

So Dusty Baker shouldn't be fired because posters disagree by using unproven logic?

kaldaniels
06-13-2012, 08:19 PM
So Dusty Baker shouldn't be fired because posters disagree by using unproven logic?

If I am reading your conjunction followed by 3 negatives correctly, I would have to say no. :D

redsmetz
06-13-2012, 09:09 PM
I would have never hired him in the first place. He's not a good fit for this type of team. He was perfect for the veteran-laden San Francisco teams. But that's JMO, and I know you have your own.

I'll respectfully disagree. I think Dusty has been a good manager for this cadre of young players we've had. Is he perfect? Of course not, but I think he's worked with our young group of players in spite of the old canard that he's filled with vet love and brought them along. He's stuck by any number of these guys when things weren't going perfectly.

It really strikes me as incredible that we have a thread calling for Dusty's head because Johnny Cueto threw 12 extra pitches.

Oy.

George Anderson
06-13-2012, 09:14 PM
It really strikes me as incredible that we have a thread calling for Dusty's head because Johnny Cueto threw 12 extra pitches.

Oy.

Oh I agree, when I first saw this thread I thought I was on a different page on RZ and not the Org.

Brutus
06-13-2012, 10:34 PM
So Dusty Baker shouldn't be fired because posters disagree by using unproven logic?

Confusing though it may be, I think you hit the nail on the head lol

_Sir_Charles_
06-13-2012, 10:56 PM
I'll respectfully disagree. I think Dusty has been a good manager for this cadre of young players we've had. Is he perfect? Of course not, but I think he's worked with our young group of players in spite of the old canard that he's filled with vet love and brought them along. He's stuck by any number of these guys when things weren't going perfectly.

It really strikes me as incredible that we have a thread calling for Dusty's head because Johnny Cueto threw 12 extra pitches.

Oy.

This.

And another thing...alot can be said for Managerial STABILITY. Have you guys so quickly forgotten what the Manager-merry-go-round was like?!?

Tony Cloninger
06-13-2012, 11:00 PM
I'll respectfully disagree. I think Dusty has been a good manager for this cadre of young players we've had. Is he perfect? Of course not, but I think he's worked with our young group of players in spite of the old canard that he's filled with vet love and brought them along. He's stuck by any number of these guys when things weren't going perfectly.

It really strikes me as incredible that we have a thread calling for Dusty's head because Johnny Cueto threw 12 extra pitches.

Oy.


Exactly! I mean Dusty was clearly not thinking of the children here and how many puppies would be killed by the sheer madness of allowing starter to throw 120 pitches.

Chip R
06-14-2012, 12:13 AM
Take away Barry Bonds and a team full of PED stars and Dusty wouldn't have won nothing.

You could have managed those Giant teams and won one division title.

Take away Johnny Bench and Pete Rose and Sparky Anderson wouldn't have won anything with the Reds.

dougdirt
06-14-2012, 12:24 AM
Dusty Baker is a poor manager. We have been down this road a thousand times and my opinion is not going to change on that. Look at his line ups. Look at his bullpen usage. He is not good at it. That is all I am saying about it.

Captain Hook
06-14-2012, 01:57 AM
That's ridiculous. Cueto has been in the Reds system since he was, 18? It's not like he came from Cuba or Japan when he was in his mid 20's. Also, Kerry Wood threw something like 200+ pitches in a high school game one time. How'd that one go for him?

I love Cueto and his attitude, but once you get over 110 pitches, you're in the danger zone. We're all hoping Cueto pitches well into October this year, and those last 15 or so pitches just were simply unneeded. Save as many bullets in the chamber as possible.

I'm guessing everyone would've been ok with those extra 15 pitches if Cueto had a no-hitter going but would they really have been anymore needed?

I don't know what makes all of these guys tick but I guarantee that there's a good majority of them that get out of a slump by getting a big hit or having just one good game that gets their confidence up and then they ride that boost to a hot streak.Getting a complete game after having an ERA over 5 his last five starts could be just what Cueto needed.

Brutus
06-14-2012, 02:09 AM
Dusty Baker is a poor manager. We have been down this road a thousand times and my opinion is not going to change on that. Look at his line ups. Look at his bullpen usage. He is not good at it. That is all I am saying about it.

$10 says that's not all you'll say about it lol

edabbs44
06-14-2012, 08:22 AM
Dusty Baker is a poor manager. We have been down this road a thousand times and my opinion is not going to change on that. Look at his line ups. Look at his bullpen usage. He is not good at it. That is all I am saying about it.

Is he not getting results though? Just because JJ Hoover isn't getting as much use as you'd like doesn't make him a bad manager. Just because he bats Phillips 4th doesn't make him a bad manager.

The bullpen is performing near the top of the league but his bullpen usage is an issue? Seriously?

RANDY IN INDY
06-14-2012, 09:56 AM
It's a sign of the times.

Always Red
06-14-2012, 10:00 AM
Ok, which one of you guys is really Derek Lowe?

RedFanAlways1966
06-14-2012, 10:47 AM
Matt Cain threw 125 pitches in his perfect game last night. I guess Bruce Bochy should be axed for that. Or do we have different standards for these things? I get so confused.

I am positive a few people here would have taken him out after 8 innings. Or maybe after 1 or 2 outs in the 9th. That is the proper thing to do and should give you job security. Because there is a book/manual somewhere that says exactly the number of pitches that should be used for all pitchers in one day. And scientific fact proves that number (whatever that number is) is appropriate for all humans.

Tony Cloninger
06-14-2012, 11:17 AM
Matt Cain threw 125 pitches in his perfect game last night. I guess Bruce Bochy should be axed for that. Or do we have different standards for these things? I get so confused.

I am positive a few people here would have taken him out after 8 innings. Or maybe after 1 or 2 outs in the 9th. That is the proper thing to do and should give you job security. Because there is a book/manual somewhere that says exactly the number of pitches that should be used for all pitchers in one day. And scientific fact proves that number (whatever that number is) is appropriate for all humans.

Remember when Moses dropped some of the Commandments during that history movie with the swimming nuns during the Spanish Inquisition? Well....one of those tablets stated... Thou shall not pass 120 tosses of the white rock as to incur the wrath of Redszone.

traderumor
06-14-2012, 11:34 AM
Remember when Moses dropped some of the Commandments during that history movie with the swimming nuns during the Spanish Inquisition? Well....one of those tablets stated... Thou shall not pass 120 tosses of the white rock as to incur the wrath of Redszone.History of the World Part II, and yes, its good to be the king :D

dougdirt
06-14-2012, 12:31 PM
Matt Cain threw 125 pitches in his perfect game last night. I guess Bruce Bochy should be axed for that. Or do we have different standards for these things? I get so confused.

I am positive a few people here would have taken him out after 8 innings. Or maybe after 1 or 2 outs in the 9th. That is the proper thing to do and should give you job security. Because there is a book/manual somewhere that says exactly the number of pitches that should be used for all pitchers in one day. And scientific fact proves that number (whatever that number is) is appropriate for all humans.

You mean like when Johan threw his no hitter and his manager said that he thought Johan was going to cost him his job because he was throwing so many pitches?

And yes, there are different standards in things like that. To a point. Edwin Jackson threw like 149 pitches in his no hitter a few years ago. Never let that happen. 125 pitches for a no hitter/perfect game, that is ok. That is a once in a lifetime type of thing for the player. Winning 7-1 is not.

Puffy
06-14-2012, 12:58 PM
History of the World Part II, and yes, its good to be the king :D

Part I - - Mel Brooks teased a part II but it never came about.

redsmetz
06-14-2012, 01:07 PM
You mean like when Johan threw his no hitter and his manager said that he thought Johan was going to cost him his job because he was throwing so many pitches?

And yes, there are different standards in things like that. To a point. Edwin Jackson threw like 149 pitches in his no hitter a few years ago. Never let that happen. 125 pitches for a no hitter/perfect game, that is ok. That is a once in a lifetime type of thing for the player. Winning 7-1 is not.

I think a number of us have said it's not necessary to be so tied to a particular number that a slight deviation can never be permitted. It was 12 extra pitches and Baker came out right after the hit. Keeps him in with instructions, "don't mess around." Cueto throws one more pitch & the game's over. These guys aren't so delicate that an occasional extra dozen pitches can't be handled. I would agree with others that a gutsy, efficient outing like this for Cueto can mean a lot for a team.

Frankly this ought to be filed under "mountain out of molehill" IMO.

RedFanAlways1966
06-14-2012, 01:07 PM
And yes, there are different standards in things like that. To a point. Edwin Jackson threw like 149 pitches in his no hitter a few years ago. Never let that happen. 125 pitches for a no hitter/perfect game, that is ok. That is a once in a lifetime type of thing for the player. Winning 7-1 is not.

Some say different standards... I say double standards.

This has been argued here numerous times, but what is that magic number for pitches? Is it the same for all? And why THAT NUMBER? Do we factor in other variables like weather (temperatue/humidity), how much the pitcher had to run the bases, the number of pitches thropwn in his last 3 starts? Or do we just stick to THAT NUMBER?

dougdirt
06-14-2012, 01:19 PM
Some say different standards... I say double standards.

This has been argued here numerous times, but what is that magic number for pitches? Is it the same for all? And why THAT NUMBER? Do we factor in other variables like weather (temperatue/humidity), how much the pitcher had to run the bases, the number of pitches thropwn in his last 3 starts? Or do we just stick to THAT NUMBER?

No, it isn't the same for all. Yes, weather comes into play. In the cold, you throw less.

There is a moving target. 110 + pitches in a 6 run game though is an easy call. You are risking a guys health. It is unnecessary. There was no need for it other than some individual moral victory. Johnny Cueto had never topped 185 innings in 5 major league seasons. Last year he had an arm injury that caused him to miss 6 weeks of the season. Protect his arm.

reds1869
06-14-2012, 01:23 PM
I suspect Dusty's players would run through a brick wall for him. That is worth a lot of irritation over bullpen usage and batting orders.

dougdirt
06-14-2012, 01:30 PM
I suspect Dusty's players would run through a brick wall for him. That is worth a lot of irritation over bullpen usage and batting orders.

Is it? You think the players would go out and stink for a manager they wouldn't run through a wall for?

PuffyPig
06-14-2012, 01:34 PM
Is it? You think the players would go out and stink for a manager they wouldn't run through a wall for?

Not intentially, but happier players may well be better players.

When resigning players and attracting FA's, players will look at the manager of the team. It's not irrelevant.

Cueto being able to finish that game creates a sense of goodwill that is not lost on the team.

It's worth something, how much I don't know.

757690
06-14-2012, 01:57 PM
Anyone who wants Dusty Baker fired, and thinks that his ability to handle his players isn't that important, should read the Derek Lowe Vs. Dusty thread.

http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=96235

westofyou
06-14-2012, 03:10 PM
Is it? You think the players would go out and stink for a manager they wouldn't run through a wall for?

No

But they might not give the extra effort, they might stop and listen longer if they respect him, they might just do about anything for him if he would do the same for them

There is a reason the Dave Miley's of the game fail up in the spotlight and a lot of it has to do with trust and respect

They are after all humans, not robots

Bumstead
06-14-2012, 04:28 PM
I'll respectfully disagree. I think Dusty has been a good manager for this cadre of young players we've had. Is he perfect? Of course not, but I think he's worked with our young group of players in spite of the old canard that he's filled with vet love and brought them along. He's stuck by any number of these guys when things weren't going perfectly.

It really strikes me as incredible that we have a thread calling for Dusty's head because Johnny Cueto threw 12 extra pitches.

Oy.

I never suggested that he be fired. I suggested he not be extended. I have never liked him as a manager and I probably never will. He was a decent hitter when he was with the Dodgers (since WOY wants us to say something nice).

He has been a direct opponent to Chapman being given an opportunity to become a starter which is crazy IMHO.

Bum

dougdirt
06-14-2012, 04:30 PM
No

But they might not give the extra effort, they might stop and listen longer if they respect him, they might just do about anything for him if he would do the same for them

There is a reason the Dave Miley's of the game fail up in the spotlight and a lot of it has to do with trust and respect

They are after all humans, not robots

You need a better argument than that to convince me that Joey Votto is human.

westofyou
06-14-2012, 04:38 PM
You need a better argument than that to convince me that Joey Votto is human.

He might be from the future

dougdirt
06-14-2012, 04:51 PM
He might be from the future

That one I may be willing to accept.

traderumor
06-14-2012, 09:12 PM
I never suggested that he be fired. I suggested he not be extended. I have never liked him as a manager and I probably never will. He was a decent hitter when he was with the Dodgers (since WOY wants us to say something nice).

He has been a direct opponent to Chapman being given an opportunity to become a starter which is crazy IMHO.

BumI would say it is a matter of being fair, not "niceties."

RedlegJake
06-15-2012, 12:40 AM
When did Sundeck get their threads moved to the ORG?

RED VAN HOT
06-18-2012, 01:50 PM
I don't want to fire him now. But if the winning streak reaches 10, I might have to rethink it.

MikeThierry
06-18-2012, 01:55 PM
You need a better argument than that to convince me that Joey Votto is human.

Well, Pujols is a machine so it wouldn't surprise me if there's other players who aren't human in the league.

Raisor
06-24-2012, 10:18 PM
My biggest Dusty complaint from today (not advocating firing him, but I need to rant) was not pitch hitting Hanigan for Valdez in the 9th. The best player in the universe was on deck, Reds needed to get through one more PA to get him back up. If the reds somehow tie in the bottom of the 9th hanigan would have been in the game anyway as Mez was ph for. Unless Cozart is injured (which would mean that valdez would have to stay in) I can't think of a single justifiable reason why you don't hit Hanigan there.

Big Klu
06-25-2012, 12:21 AM
My biggest Dusty complaint from today (not advocating firing him, but I need to rant) was not pitch hitting Hanigan for Valdez in the 9th. The best player in the universe was on deck, Reds needed to get through one more PA to get him back up. If the reds somehow tie in the bottom of the 9th hanigan would have been in the game anyway as Mez was ph for. Unless Cozart is injured (which would mean that valdez would have to stay in) I can't think of a single justifiable reason why you don't hit Hanigan there.

Even if Cozart were unavailable (and I have no idea whether he was or not), Todd Frazier could have filled in at SS in an emergency, and Scott Rolen was already in the game.

lidspinner
06-25-2012, 08:45 AM
my biggest complaints in last nights games was the way Heisey went about his AB in the 9th and the way Mike Leake hit for himself in the bottom of the 7th with RISP and 1 out....only to let Mike pitch 1 more inning....I could see if you was going to let him try and get a complete game, but having hanny batting there in the 7th could of been huge at getting a run across the plate.....I believe Leake sac'd the runner to 3rd but now we have 2 outs.....

next issue is how we pitched Mauer in the 9th....it was clear he was just standing up there and flaring his bat at the fastball that he could not catch up with to save his life...he was fouling everything off to the left side....why not bust him in on a few of those 1-2 counts? bust him in on fastballs and make him try to catch up, its not like he was digging in the box, he was setting up to go opposite field on every swing outside the 1st swing in that AB......that is not so much on Dusty as it is the catcher but I still think Dusty has to recognize that, or someone needs to relay that to him if he is giving signs to Mes to give to chapman....

I know its nitpicking but those are the little things that win or lose ball games that do not show up in the stat box or usually get talked about the next day....Oh yeah, my 13 year old daughter knows that she darn well better not swing at the a pitch till she gets a strike if 2 girls in front of her walk, that is something that all MLB players should have been taught in the minors.....I understand if there is 2 outs and your trying to make something happen, but the pitcher has yet to get an out, he is struggling and Chris goes up there and says, "here, let me help get you out of this log jam your in". silly stuff....little stuff, but silly nontheless

Dan
06-25-2012, 08:56 PM
next issue is how we pitched Mauer in the 9th....it was clear he was just standing up there and flaring his bat at the fastball that he could not catch up with to save his life...he was fouling everything off to the left side....why not bust him in on a few of those 1-2 counts? bust him in on fastballs and make him try to catch up, its not like he was digging in the box, he was setting up to go opposite field on every swing outside the 1st swing in that AB......that is not so much on Dusty as it is the catcher but I still think Dusty has to recognize that, or someone needs to relay that to him if he is giving signs to Mes to give to chapman....

I know its nitpicking but those are the little things that win or lose ball games that do not show up in the stat box or usually get talked about the next day....Oh yeah, my 13 year old daughter knows that she darn well better not swing at the a pitch till she gets a strike if 2 girls in front of her walk, that is something that all MLB players should have been taught in the minors.....I understand if there is 2 outs and your trying to make something happen, but the pitcher has yet to get an out, he is struggling and Chris goes up there and says, "here, let me help get you out of this log jam your in". silly stuff....little stuff, but silly nontheless

I don't think that's nit-picking at all. The talent and skill level, overall, is so close from team to team that those little things DO matter. You push any edge you can get and take any advantage you have. Or to put it another way: "just one more dying quail a week, and you're batting in Yankee Stadium." (Crash Davis)

As for the Mauer AB I was thinking the same thing. I was driving, listening to the game, and as Mauer was spoiling those pitches, I kept thinking he was too good a hitter to give him that many pitches without changing SOMETHING up. Then I figured chin music on the 2-2 pitch, and come back with the slider away or fastball inside and Mauer wouldn't have a chance. As it was, they did things differently and the result was what you'd expect.