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View Full Version : Let's sign Manny to play LF and bat cleanup



Vottomatic
06-16-2012, 04:12 PM
Just kidding.

Interesting dilemma that would probably mess up team chemistry.

corkedbat
06-16-2012, 04:35 PM
I'd rather have ManRam than Soriano

hebroncougar
06-16-2012, 05:43 PM
I'd rather have ManRam than Soriano

Has either of you taken a gander at Manny's AAA stats this year? He's done. Janish has more pop in his bat. No PED's. No power. Interesting.

Vottomatic
06-16-2012, 06:15 PM
They said on yahoo he was batting .302 at triple A Sacramento.

reds1869
06-16-2012, 06:21 PM
They said on yahoo he was batting .302 at triple A Sacramento.

But with only 3 doubles and 0 HR. His AAA OPS of .697 doesn't exactly set my heart racing.

dfs
06-16-2012, 07:35 PM
They said on yahoo he was batting .302 at triple A Sacramento.

Traditionally PCL batting averages are very inflated. Like take 80 points off that.

757690
06-16-2012, 08:25 PM
Let's not, and say we did :cool:

TeamBoone
06-16-2012, 09:44 PM
yuk

Edd Roush
06-17-2012, 01:36 AM
I have been the one wanting Manny since December and I am still on the bandwagon. Give me Manny or even Vlad for the three game series in Cleveland over Cairo/Harris or Valdez DHing. For those who are worried about team chemistry, tell either if they step out of line once they are gone. Both are looking for one more shot in the bigs and it is very likely that both would outhit what is available currently on the bench or in the minors for the Cleveland series.

mth123
06-17-2012, 07:02 AM
I have been the one wanting Manny since December and I am still on the bandwagon. Give me Manny or even Vlad for the three game series in Cleveland over Cairo/Harris or Valdez DHing. For those who are worried about team chemistry, tell either if they step out of line once they are gone. Both are looking for one more shot in the bigs and it is very likely that both would outhit what is available currently on the bench or in the minors for the Cleveland series.

Rolen at 3B and Frazier to DH is what will probably happen, though Rolen may sit one of the games and we may get Cairo in there. Frazier may get some time in LF with Ludwick at DH.

I could see Manny or Vlad in place of Cairo, but I doubt that the Reds would cut Cairo loose. Not seeing the spot for a guy like Manny or Vlad at this point. If the Reds could get a guy for the LF mix who can provide OBP and offense vs RHP, while being at least competent defensively out there, it would be worth doing with Ludwick probably becoming the odd man out who gets dealt away.

oneupper
06-17-2012, 10:45 AM
Don't mind a guy with a few warts, where the upside is great. I would have all for taking a guy like Big Z, if you had a plan to keep him sane.
But Manny, Soriano and then guys like Michael Bradley or Njer Morgan.
Don't think they're worth the trouble.

corkedbat
06-17-2012, 01:09 PM
Has either of you taken a gander at Manny's AAA stats this year? He's done. Janish has more pop in his bat. No PED's. No power. Interesting.

Didn't say anything about wanting to sign Manny. Just said I'd rather have him than Soriano. I want nothing to do with the latter.

cincrazy
06-17-2012, 02:24 PM
Manny would be an unmitigated disaster in the lineup, and in LF, for the Reds. If a team that needs offense as badly as Oakland never brings him up to the majors (and they even have the benefit of a DH spot) then you know he's beyond done.

Edd Roush
06-17-2012, 10:04 PM
Manny would be an unmitigated disaster in the lineup, and in LF, for the Reds. If a team that needs offense as badly as Oakland never brings him up to the majors (and they even have the benefit of a DH spot) then you know he's beyond done.

How is a career .996 OPS bat going to be an unmitigated disaster? Exaggerate much? Wow. Manny was very bad in a small sample in 2011. Manny wasn't great in his short stint in the PCL this year. That does not change my opinion that given a large enough sample size (200+ PAs) he will OPS over 800 in the bigs.

Miguel Cairo has never OPSed over 800 in the bigs. He was once a valued utility man off the bench, who is a good character guy. Given the development of Todd Frazier, he is nothing more than a redundant part. The Reds need a guy who can DH in this Cleveland series. Manny really fits this bill. Manny has never OPSed below .878 in a year in which he had more than 54 PAs. I am sure he is not the guy anymore who had 6 straight years of OPSs over 1.000. However, he is still one of the best bats with one of the best batting eyes of this generation.

As I said in the off-season, Manny deserves his bad rap for his defense and for his selfishness. That being said, he can still hit. He serves more of a function on this 2012 Reds team (DH, then first bat off the bench) than Miguel Cairo does. Miguel will be on this team for the rest of the year. He just wouldn't be as valuable as Manny Ramirez.

Manny is the ultimate low risk-high reward move. The Reds won't make it, but I wish they would.

If Rolen gets hurt again and you need a third baseman, I would bet that Cairo would make it through waivers and would be waiting in AAA. If he did get claimed onto another team, I am not sure if he is a better player than Willie Harris at this point.

Edd Roush
06-17-2012, 10:09 PM
As for Vlad, he is not nearly as good as he was last year, but he still hit .290 and slugged .416. That was the fifteenth straight year he had done at least that. Is there any doubt that he would hit better than Cairo?

Furthermore, it is not like Cairo has some defensive value. I just don't feel like adding a Manny or Vlad would disrupt the clubhouse chemistry. Joey, Jay and Brandon have to realize that another big bat could only help and alleviate pressure. It is not like the Reds need to commit big dollars to either Manny or Vlad. They let them have a spot on the major league roster and a three-day audition at DH. If one steps out of line, you cut one and add the other. They each serve as a solid temporary DH then a big bat off the bench later.

cincrazy
06-17-2012, 10:14 PM
How is a career .996 OPS bat going to be an unmitigated disaster? Exaggerate much? Wow. Manny was very bad in a small sample in 2011. Manny wasn't great in his short stint in the PCL this year. That does not change my opinion that given a large enough sample size (200+ PAs) he will OPS over 800 in the bigs.

Miguel Cairo has never OPSed over 800 in the bigs. He was once a valued utility man off the bench, who is a good character guy. Given the development of Todd Frazier, he is nothing more than a redundant part. The Reds need a guy who can DH in this Cleveland series. Manny really fits this bill. Manny has never OPSed below .878 in a year in which he had more than 54 PAs. I am sure he is not the guy anymore who had 6 straight years of OPSs over 1.000. However, he is still one of the best bats with one of the best batting eyes of this generation.

As I said in the off-season, Manny deserves his bad rap for his defense and for his selfishness. That being said, he can still hit. He serves more of a function on this 2012 Reds team (DH, then first bat off the bench) than Miguel Cairo does. Miguel will be on this team for the rest of the year. He just wouldn't be as valuable as Manny Ramirez.

Manny is the ultimate low risk-high reward move. The Reds won't make it, but I wish they would.

If Rolen gets hurt again and you need a third baseman, I would bet that Cairo would make it through waivers and would be waiting in AAA. If he did get claimed onto another team, I am not sure if he is a better player than Willie Harris at this point.

That's simply where we disagree my friend. I don't think he can hit, and the evidence the last few years backs it up. I don't think small sample sizes apply anymore when you're north of 40.

hebroncougar
06-17-2012, 11:17 PM
As for Vlad, he is not nearly as good as he was last year, but he still hit .290 and slugged .416. That was the fifteenth straight year he had done at least that. Is there any doubt that he would hit better than Cairo?

Furthermore, it is not like Cairo has some defensive value. I just don't feel like adding a Manny or Vlad would disrupt the clubhouse chemistry. Joey, Jay and Brandon have to realize that another big bat could only help and alleviate pressure. It is not like the Reds need to commit big dollars to either Manny or Vlad. They let them have a spot on the major league roster and a three-day audition at DH. If one steps out of line, you cut one and add the other. They each serve as a solid temporary DH then a big bat off the bench later.

Are you Manny's or Vlad's agent? You want to pick up a guy, and play him at DH for the next 3 games...........then what? Pay them to do exactly what? Even if you think they can hit (which Vlad may do a bit of, but Manny's not going to), where in god's name is he going to play? You think Manny is going to not stir the pot sitting on the bench? You want either of them playing LF when Bronson, Leake, Latos, or Homer are pitching? Vlad played ZERO games in the field last year, on a bad team, and a grand total of 18 the year before. Manny hasn't played the OF since 2010, heck he DH'd in the minor leagues this year. And Billy Beane cut him. If there was ANY indication Beane thought he could have gotten an A ball hitter that was worth a bag of peanuts, you know he would have brought him up to showcase him for a month, and flipped him. That's why they signed him. He's done. Kapish. Cairo isn't great, but he can fill in, in a pinch at several defensive positions. Heck, I didn't think Valdez could hit, and look what he's done the past week for the Reds, he's shown he has a bit of value. This team is in first, playing exceptionally well. There is no way in hell I'd bring in a clubhouse cancer. Come on, you're smarter than that.

Edd Roush
06-17-2012, 11:21 PM
That's simply where we disagree my friend. I don't think he can hit, and the evidence the last few years backs it up. I don't think small sample sizes apply anymore when you're north of 40.

Small sample sized apply in pretty much any situation. It hasn't been "the last few years" where Manny hasn't hit. Manny OPSed .870 in 2010. That could be our best OF OPS in 2012. Manny had all of 17 PAs in 2011. No way anyone could gauge anything by a 17 PA sample size. Manny has had 69 PAs in 2012. No way anyone could gauge anything by a 69 PA sample size.

I expect players to see their talents diminished after they reach the age of 40. However, I don't expect HOF level bats to be "unmitigated disasters" just because they are 40. Rather, I would expect Manny to be our third or fourth best hitter if we signed him this year.

Miguel Cairo should not be the reason we don't sign Manny Ramirez. This Cleveland series would be a great audition for Manny.

Edd Roush
06-17-2012, 11:35 PM
Are you Manny's or Vlad's agent? You want to pick up a guy, and play him at DH for the next 3 games...........then what? Pay them to do exactly what? Even if you think they can hit (which Vlad may do a bit of, but Manny's not going to), where in god's name is he going to play? You think Manny is going to not stir the pot sitting on the bench? You want either of them playing LF when Bronson, Leake, Latos, or Homer are pitching? Vlad played ZERO games in the field last year, on a bad team, and a grand total of 18 the year before. Manny hasn't played the OF since 2010, heck he DH'd in the minor leagues this year. And Billy Beane cut him. If there was ANY indication Beane thought he could have gotten an A ball hitter that was worth a bag of peanuts, you know he would have brought him up to showcase him for a month, and flipped him. That's why they signed him. He's done. Kapish. Cairo isn't great, but he can fill in, in a pinch at several defensive positions. Heck, I didn't think Valdez could hit, and look what he's done the past week for the Reds, he's shown he has a bit of value. This team is in first, playing exceptionally well. There is no way in hell I'd bring in a clubhouse cancer. Come on, you're smarter than that.


No, I am not Manny or Vlad's agent. I am just a concerned fan who sees a very average lineup that could be improved with very little risk.

Major league contracts are pro-rated. If either were to play for just three games, they would earn 3/162nd of the major league minimum if either was cut on Thursday. That being said, I think either would be more valuable than Negron, Cairo or Valdez on the bench as a late inning pinch hitter.

I really do not think Manny is going to stir the pot when he knows he has no slack to do so. Plus, Dusty is supposed to be a player's manager who gets guys to like each other. If this is true, he can get the players to leave Manny alone and let him hit like he has done his entire career.

I do not want either of them in left field. I want them to make the minimum to sit on the bench and hit when their name is called. They would provide no negative defensive value this way and only surplus offensive value. They can be pinch ran for by a pitcher (Leake or Arroyo) as soon as they reach base.

Manny hasn't had the chance to play left field since 2010 because he has had less than 100 PAs since then due to his "retirement."

Why can't Billy Beane make a mistake? Do you think anyone thinks his off-season deal for Coco Crisp was a smart move now? They are financially tied down to Coco and have Reddick and Cespedes taking the rest of the PT in the outfield. They also have Seth Smith and Jonny Gomes who are very good hitters as well. No room for Manny in Oakland.

The same is not true here in Cincinnati. We are currently 16th in RS in the major leagues. We are the definition of average. Let's add one of two bats that have always been above league average offensively for their entire careers. As I stated in a post I wrote this off-season, Manny's season OPS would have to drop 71 points below his worst season ever to not reach an .800 OPS. Manny still has a killer batting eye and can crush a mistake.

Finally, are you really using one week of Valdez' performance to prove he can hit? 1103 career PAs of a .613 OPS say otherwise.

I am very happy the Reds are in first place of an average to weak division. However, I will be even more happy if we win the World Series. This team needs another bat if it wants to win the World Series. Manny/Vlad as a DH/PH can only improve the team compared to a Cairo/Negron/Valdez.

PuffyPig
06-18-2012, 12:08 AM
No, I am not Manny or Vlad's agent. I am just a concerned fan who sees a very average lineup that could be improved with very little risk.



A lineup which is 3rd in the NL in OPS and trending upwards.

kaldaniels
06-18-2012, 12:15 AM
I'm serious when I say this Edd, but you lost me at "Jonny Gomes is a real good hitter".

Edd Roush
06-18-2012, 12:16 AM
A lineup which is 3rd in the NL in OPS and trending upwards.

I do not abide by the theory, "if it's not broke, do not try to fix it." I believe that all things can be improved, including this lineup. I truly believe Manny/Vlad provide more value to this team than Cairo/Negron/Valdez. Even if we had the #1 NL OPS, I would still offer suggestions on how I believe this team could be improved.

Edd Roush
06-18-2012, 12:25 AM
I'm serious when I say this Edd, but you lost me at "Jonny Gomes is a real good hitter".

I suppose I should have included vs left handed pitching as a caveat there, but the point remains that Oakland has four major league quality OF and Coco Crisp, so it's not like they are desolate in talent and they would be the easiest time in MLB to crack as an outfielder.

The problem with Jonny Gomes, Vlad Guerrero or Manny Ramirez, is they are not manager-proof players. What I mean by that is the manager would have to be intelligent about when to use them, which Dusty has been hit-and-miss with in his career in Cincinnati. In Jonny's case, he should only play against left handed pitching. For Vlad and Manny, they should only be used as a DH or a pinch hitter. Vlad and Manny still have value left. I do not think they will play in Cincinnati, but I also do not think we should have otherwise intelligent posters commenting on how dumb of an idea the hypothetical would be of bringing Vlad or Manny in. Both can hit and both are incrementally better than Cairo/Valdez/Negron. They could/would make the bench better.

Tom Servo
06-18-2012, 12:30 AM
Would much rather have Vlad over Manny any day of the week, but even then I'm fairly content to stick with what we have right now.

kaldaniels
06-18-2012, 12:42 AM
Sometimes Edd, you just can't make every marginal upgrade you would like. I would take Vlad or Manny over Negron I suppose, but that's about it. (And Kristopher isn't gonna be around much longer) Ignoring this weekend's offensive explosion by Valdez, I'd still rather have him than Vlad/Manny. (Him stepping into CF impressed me)

Vlad and Manny are simply cashed out as far as I can tell. Let them be someone else's problem.

Big Klu
06-18-2012, 02:17 AM
With the five-man benches that are now common in baseball, a NL club can no longer afford to carry a player who can only be used as a PH. Perhaps 20-30 years ago, when seven-man benches were the norm, but not now.

WVRedsFan
06-18-2012, 02:24 AM
With the five-man benches that are now common in baseball, a NL club can no longer afford to carry a player who can only be used as a PH. Perhaps 20-30 years ago, when seven-man benches were the norm, but not now.

Yes, but we can do better than Harris, Valdez, and Cairo. Can they play positions? Yes. And maybe someone smarter than me knows what they are doing, but when a hit is needed, Negron, Cairo, Harris, and Contanso don't fit the bill.

GAC
06-18-2012, 05:48 AM
Manny and Vlad, if anything at all, are DH material. Both the Tigers and Indians passed on them on that aspect though because they know neither can play LF at a level needed. Vlad's knees are shot.

Manny would have made $500,000 with the A's if he made the roster. Is it worth it to the Reds, if Manny would even do it, to sit our bench at that price simply in a PHer role, a power threat off our bench? Because I certainly wouldn't put this 40 yr old in LF unless it was late innings and we were up a bunch.

I say pass on the guy. He's more trouble then he's worth.

If we want a power threat off the bench, and someone who can still play the field (not everyday), then let it be Rolen. Give Frazier a majority of the playing time. The writing is on the wall for Scotty.

Edd Roush
06-18-2012, 10:00 AM
Sometimes Edd, you just can't make every marginal upgrade you would like. I would take Vlad or Manny over Negron I suppose, but that's about it. (And Kristopher isn't gonna be around much longer) Ignoring this weekend's offensive explosion by Valdez, I'd still rather have him than Vlad/Manny. (Him stepping into CF impressed me)

Vlad and Manny are simply cashed out as far as I can tell. Let them be someone else's problem.

How does Valdez' career .613 OPS impress you? Do you think his last week of actually hitting the ball shows an improvement in his hitting ability? He can play a lot of defensive positions adequately, but he still can't hit. That has no value in my eyes.

Also, you really like Cairo who can't play defense and can't hit more than Manny or Vlad?

I know I am not getting this marginal improvement, but it still is a marginal improvement and could make the difference at the end of the year.

kaldaniels
06-18-2012, 10:09 AM
How does Valdez' career .613 OPS impress you? Do you think his last week of actually hitting the ball shows an improvement in his hitting ability? He can play a lot of defensive positions adequately, but he still can't hit. That has no value in my eyes.

Also, you really like Cairo who can't play defense and can't hit more than Manny or Vlad?

I know I am not getting this marginal improvement, but it still is a marginal improvement and could make the difference at the end of the year.

Like with Gomes, I think you are overestimating the offensive talents of Vlad/Manny in 2012.

Edd Roush
06-18-2012, 10:15 AM
Like with Gomes, I think you are overestimating the offensive talents of Vlad/Manny in 2012.

What would your expectations for Vlad/Manny be in 2012?

I would foresee a .830ish OPS from Manny, which would be 40 points below his career worst.

I prefer Manny over Vlad, because Vlad has never been able to take a walk. I could see around an .800 OPS from Vlad.

RedFanAlways1966
06-18-2012, 10:18 AM
I DO NOT want a QUITTER on my fav team. Yes, he quit on MORE THAN ONE team in his career. Take your bat, glove (do you have one?) and PEDs elsewhere (if they will have you). Next...

Edd Roush
06-18-2012, 10:20 AM
With the five-man benches that are now common in baseball, a NL club can no longer afford to carry a player who can only be used as a PH. Perhaps 20-30 years ago, when seven-man benches were the norm, but not now.

In a perfect world, there would be no room for just a pinch hitter on your bench. You would have five guys, including one catcher, who can hit, field and run.

That being said, we are not in a perfect world. We have our utility guy in Willie Harris who would be my backup to third base, second base and the outfield given our current team set-up. Miguel Cairo is an inferior ballplayer both on defense and offense in my eyes to Willie Harris. When Rolen is ready, I would send down Negron.

I would cut Cairo to make room for Manny. Manny would be my first bat off the bench in a tight spot and my DH in all other settings. Again, I would prefer an .830 OPS bat who can also hit and field, but that guy would be my starting left fielder either way.

If Rolen comes back healthy and re-claims the starting third base spot and Frazier is moved to left every day and rakes, then you have Ludwick as another bat on the bench, but I still would expect Manny and Vlad to outOPS him.

Edd Roush
06-18-2012, 10:22 AM
I DO NOT want a QUITTER on my fav team. Yes, he quit on MORE THAN ONE team in his career. Take your bat, glove (do you have one?) and PEDs elsewhere (if they will have you). Next...

Manny is not the consumate teammate. He had a bad attitude and he is very selfish. I do not expect him to take a leadership role on this team. That being said, the man can hit. All I want him to do is hit. If he doesn't bring a glove to the game, that's fine by me. The PEDs are gone. His bat speed and batting eye are still there. Sign me up.

kaldaniels
06-18-2012, 10:56 AM
What would your expectations for Vlad/Manny be in 2012?

I would foresee a .830ish OPS from Manny, which would be 40 points below his career worst.

I prefer Manny over Vlad, because Vlad has never been able to take a walk. I could see around an .800 OPS from Vlad.

Manny OPS 2010 .870
Manny OPS 2011 .118 (17 plate appearances)
Manny OPS 2012 .697 (69 AAA plate appearances)

Factor in he is 2 years and a PED suspension removed from that .870 OPS and I think you are overestimating what he would do. Gun to my head, I'd guess a .725 OPS if he were in the majors for an extended period.

Edd Roush
06-18-2012, 02:14 PM
Manny OPS 2010 .870
Manny OPS 2011 .118 (17 plate appearances)
Manny OPS 2012 .697 (69 AAA plate appearances)

Factor in he is 2 years and a PED suspension removed from that .870 OPS and I think you are overestimating what he would do. Gun to my head, I'd guess a .725 OPS if he were in the majors for an extended period.

So you think his skills diminished from being a Hall of Fame level hitter to a .725 hitter just because he sat out one year?

Other Hall of Fame level hitters had great years after age 40. Barry Bonds OPSed over .999 his three post 40 seasons.

Willie Mays OPSed .907 his age 40 season and then .802 his age 41 season.

Ty Cobb OPSed .921 in his age 40 season and then .819 his age 41 season.

Yes, all of those hitters I mentioned were the best of the best, but so was Manny. Less than 100 PAs to the contrary does not change my opinion in the slightest.

Patrick Bateman
06-18-2012, 02:23 PM
Considering his defense, Manny is more than likely an atrocious option (regardless of what Ty Cobb did 100 years ago).

Only way he could even be considered is if he went to AAA and proved he can still be an impact hitter.

I would think any NL team would have extremely minimal interest.

Edd Roush
06-18-2012, 02:26 PM
Considering his defense, Manny is more than likely an atrocious option (regardless of what Ty Cobb did 100 years ago).

Only way he could even be considered is if he went to AAA and proved he can still be an impact hitter.

I would think any NL team would have extremely minimal interest.

Ty Cobb, Willie Mays and Barry Bonds were just used as examples of great hitters who continued to hit when they were 40+. Doesn't matter to me if a great did it 100 years ago or in the 70s like Willie or in the 2000s like Bonds.

Why are we considering his defense into the equation when we are just using him as a DH @ the AL teams and then a bat off the bench for the rest of the season?


Why wouldn't every team have interest in a Hall of Fame level bat during his downslide?

kaldaniels
06-18-2012, 02:26 PM
So you think his skills diminished from being a Hall of Fame level hitter to a .725 hitter just because he sat out one year?

Other Hall of Fame level hitters had great years after age 40. Barry Bonds OPSed over .999 his three post 40 seasons.

Willie Mays OPSed .907 his age 40 season and then .802 his age 41 season.

Ty Cobb OPSed .921 in his age 40 season and then .819 his age 41 season.

Yes, all of those hitters I mentioned were the best of the best, but so was Manny. Less than 100 PAs to the contrary does not change my opinion in the slightest.

There is a one year gap in the examples you list. It has been 2 years since Manny put up the .870.

kaldaniels
06-18-2012, 02:28 PM
Why wouldn't every team have interest in a Hall of Fame level bat during his downslide?

Respectfully, you should consider the thought that all 30 professional organizations have a better grasp of Manny's skill level right now than you do. And I mean that with no disrespect intended, but again I just think you are really overestimating him.

Edd Roush
06-18-2012, 02:29 PM
There is a one year gap in the examples you list. It has been 2 years since Manny put up the .870.

Yes, but he played only 17 PAs last year, so it's almost like it didn't even happen. With his age, it has to help that he got a whole year of rest. It's not like he lost his batting eye with a year of rest.

I just don't think defense or teamwork really matter in this case. We have a bunch of offensive blackholes on our bench right now. Why can't we have a guy who can actually hit on the bench?

kaldaniels
06-18-2012, 02:31 PM
Yes, but he played only 17 PAs last year, so it's almost like it didn't even happen. With his age, it has to help that he got a whole year of rest. It's not like he lost his batting eye with a year of rest.

I just don't think defense or teamwork really matter in this case. We have a bunch of offensive blackholes on our bench right now. Why can't we have a guy who can actually hit on the bench?

When dealing with player age years/skill dropoffs, you can't just leave out a year because the
player did not play, especially when we are talking about older players.

Edd Roush
06-18-2012, 02:31 PM
Respectfully, you should consider the thought that all 30 professional organizations have a better grasp of Manny's skill level right now than you do. And I mean that with no disrespect intended, but again I just think you are really overestimating him.

I really have considered that, but a lot of professional organizations do not like him personally and have known to "blackball" players in the past. What Manny did to the Rays last year was very shady. They were relying on him to some degree and he burned them. I believe a lot of organizations are trying to avoid that happening more than doubting his ability to hit. The Reds would not be relying on Manny in the slightest if they picked him up to DH/PH.

I am not upset with the Reds organization for not signing Manny. I just think that it's not a horrible idea and I am trying to play devil's advocate to some of the opinions that have been thrust forward.

Patrick Bateman
06-18-2012, 02:46 PM
Ty Cobb, Willie Mays and Barry Bonds were just used as examples of great hitters who continued to hit when they were 40+. Doesn't matter to me if a great did it 100 years ago or in the 70s like Willie or in the 2000s like Bonds.

Why are we considering his defense into the equation when we are just using him as a DH @ the AL teams and then a bat off the bench for the rest of the season?


Why wouldn't every team have interest in a Hall of Fame level bat during his downslide?

Oftentimes bench players are used in the field when injuries arise and when players need days off.

Having one extra defener capabale of playing the OF doesn't work over the course of a season.

Edd Roush
06-18-2012, 03:04 PM
Oftentimes bench players are used in the field when injuries arise and when players need days off.

Having one extra defener capabale of playing the OF doesn't work over the course of a season.

Willie Harris can play the outfield as well. He is an actually valuable utility player. A guy with on-base skills who can play pretty much any position. Hell, if he could play short, we could sign both Manny and Vlad for the bench and get rid of Cairo and Valdez.

Patrick Bateman
06-18-2012, 03:18 PM
Willie Harris can play the outfield as well. He is an actually valuable utility player. A guy with on-base skills who can play pretty much any position. Hell, if he could play short, we could sign both Manny and Vlad for the bench and get rid of Cairo and Valdez.

You can't rely on the same guy to back up all positions.

You need mutliple guys to cover defensive subsitutions, double switches, extra innings, injuries, etc.

The roster becomes extremely inflexible by taking away the few reserves currently on the roster with guys that can't play positions.... plus have yet to even show the propensity to hit AAA pitching (which even Costanzo has done this season).

The only way I could see the Reds making room for an extra bench bet is to go to 6 relievers which is potentially feasible considering the low usage of the 5-7 arms. But with Bray, and potentially Massett coming back, I don't see the transition to 6 relievers happening anytime soon.

mth123
06-18-2012, 09:45 PM
I'd be surprised if Manny could OPS over .700 at this point. Taking 2 years off is a big deal for a guy his age. Add in the fact that he's gone from a guy who was getting "help" to a guy no longer juicing and the aging may be even more dramatic.

kaldaniels
06-18-2012, 09:51 PM
I'd be surprised if Manny could OPS over .700 at this point. Taking 2 years off is a big deal for a guy his age. Add in the fact that he's gone from a guy who was getting "help" to a guy no longer juicing and the afing may be even more dramatic.

Yep. Can't forget about the "falling off a cliff" phenomenam.