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View Full Version : Mat Latos implies Indians stole some of the Redsí signs last night



icehole3
06-19-2012, 07:00 AM
Im glad that's the reason they lost :)

http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20120618/SPT04/306180088/Reds-win-streak-ends-Cleveland

Always Red
06-19-2012, 07:14 AM
I think Mat Latos should concentrate more on hitting his spots, and less on everything else.

757690
06-19-2012, 07:24 AM
That would explain a lot. They definitey were hitting like they knew what was coming.

It's against the rules to steal signs, and for good reason. The heart of the game is the chess match between pitcher and hitter over what pitch is next. Take that away, and it literally is batting practice. Not just unfair, but a really boring game, kinda like the NBA where the only drama is not if you'll score, but how. If a team is stealing your signs, even Chapman would get hit hard. ;)

puca
06-19-2012, 07:35 AM
Imagine the reaction around here if Derek Lowe had said that.

Mat needs to stop making excuses and start making pitches.

Edskin
06-19-2012, 07:38 AM
I guess the stole the sign that read "hanging curve ball that isn't gonna move coming your way."

The Operator
06-19-2012, 07:38 AM
If he hadn't let so many batters make it to second base it wouldn't have been an issue. And for all I know they may have been stealing signs, but to blame a nuclear meltdown of an outing on it comes across as excuse making to me. If they really were stealing signs, there's ways to handle that without crying to the media.

BuckeyeRedleg
06-19-2012, 08:31 AM
So what's the excuse in his other 13 starts?

Vottomatic
06-19-2012, 08:39 AM
Padres laughing big time at the Reds for making that trade.

REDREAD
06-19-2012, 09:14 AM
Well, I guess we knew that Latos was a bit immature when we traded for him.
Making excuses like this is so lame though.
Before the game, the radio announcers were talking about all the different pitches Latos can throw.. hard fastball, splitter, curve, slider, cut fastball (maybe I'm missing one).. Saying basically he is an Arrroyo that can throw hard.. Well, he's got a long way to go to mature and be 1/2 the man that Arroyo is... I'm guessing he will eventually harness the talent, but we are going to have to suffer through games like this.

Honestly, if the playoffs started tommorrow, would anyone put Latos in their 3 man starting rotation? I wouldn't.. At this point, Arroyo and Homer get the nod over Latos. Maybe that changes by the end of the year.

The Operator
06-19-2012, 09:15 AM
Padres laughing big time at the Reds for making that trade.They aren't laughing at anyone. They're 24-44 which puts them a half game away from the worst record in baseball. Yonder Alonso is OPSing .684 and Volquez is on pace to walk 114 guys this year. Latos hasn't been what we expected yet but to call the trade a bust after only 14 starts - especially when the players that went the other way aren't exactly doing well themselves - is way premature.

oneupper
06-19-2012, 09:20 AM
Yonder Alonso will be fine, but he is not magically turning into Adrian Gonzalez. Volquez is still a pumpkin.

I'm still ok with that trade. Unless there is something physical, there was little in Latos' track record to indicate that he was not going to be a solid No. 2 starter. Lets see how it goes from here, still plenty of season left.

westofyou
06-19-2012, 09:22 AM
Padres laughing big time at the Reds for making that trade.

Really?

Bud Black give you a call to confirm that?

Sea Ray
06-19-2012, 09:30 AM
It's against the rules to steal signs, and for good reason. The heart of the game is the chess match between pitcher and hitter over what pitch is next. Take that away, and it literally is batting practice. Not just unfair, but a really boring game, kinda like the NBA where the only drama is not if you'll score, but how. If a team is stealing your signs, even Chapman would get hit hard. ;)

I didn't realize that. Does the MLB rulebook really address stealing signs?

bucksfan2
06-19-2012, 09:30 AM
It was a weird game last night. Latos wasn't getting the inside fastball called a strike (the last strike to Ludwick was called one though) nor was he getting the high breaking ball called a strike. When he missed over the plate it got turned around in rocket fashion. I have seen games like that but not often. In Latos defense it was almost like the hitters knew what was coming.

BuckeyeRedleg
06-19-2012, 09:35 AM
Padres laughing big time at the Reds for making that trade.


I think this is a bit extreme. With that said, however, Latos has been about what the Reds probably would have gotten out of Volquez (the throw-in to the deal) to this point. They are both having really bad years. I understand the trade was also made for the future as Latos is only 24 and Volquez soon to be 29, but Latos (like Volquez) seems to have makeup issues and now, four years in the league, doesn't appear to have IT since he peaked in 2010.

Let's be honest, the trade was also made to help for THIS year (the "all in" year) and so far it hasn't come close to doing that. Hopefully through the next 16-18 starts he rights the ship but I'm not holding my breath.

westofyou
06-19-2012, 09:37 AM
That would explain a lot. They definitey were hitting like they knew what was coming.

It's against the rules to steal signs, and for good reason. The heart of the game is the chess match between pitcher and hitter over what pitch is next. Take that away, and it literally is batting practice. Not just unfair, but a really boring game, kinda like the NBA where the only drama is not if you'll score, but how. If a team is stealing your signs, even Chapman would get hit hard. ;)

It's not against the rules to steal signs "on the field" it's against the rules to use outside parties or tools to steal signs.

Here's an article from a few years ago

http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/32768612/ns/sports-baseball/



STEALING SIGNS A PART OF BASEBALL
Stealing signs has been going on in baseball for a long time. Itís always been part of the game. When I was a player, I was on a couple of teams where it went on.

If a base runner got to second base, he would try to read the signs the catcher flashed to the pitcher, then relay them to the hitter. Thatís not unusual and it still goes on. Why wouldnít you do it if youíre going to help your team?

You also see bench coaches trying to steal signs from the opposing third base coach or even from the other dugout.

Joe Nossek, a longtime coach for the Chicago White Sox who came up as a player with the Twins, was legendary in his ability to steal signs. He was considered one of the best at reading patterns and picking up the indicator sign.

Thereís not really a rule about it, but I donít consider stealing signs to be a big sin. Youíre not out there to make friends and I never had problems with my hitters doing that when I was pitching. Maybe it would help get me five or six runs of support.

BuckeyeRedleg
06-19-2012, 09:39 AM
It was a weird game last night. Latos wasn't getting the inside fastball called a strike (the last strike to Ludwick was called one though) nor was he getting the high breaking ball called a strike. When he missed over the plate it got turned around in rocket fashion. I have seen games like that but not often. In Latos defense it was almost like the hitters knew what was coming.

As someone mentioned in the gamethread, Randy Wolf's brother was the homeplate ump. Due to conflict of interest, his brother is not allowed to ump Brewer games. The point was also made that he probably shouldn't be allowed to ump any games involving NL Central teams and I agree. Just keep him out of the NL entirely. He was very inconsistent and it appeared that the Indians pitchers were getting pitches called for strikes that the Reds pitchers (especially Latos) were not.

George Anderson
06-19-2012, 09:58 AM
I didn't realize that. Does the MLB rulebook really address stealing signs?

That is a good question but the better question is how can you prove someone was stealing signs unless they come out and admit it?

oneupper
06-19-2012, 09:59 AM
As someone mentioned in the gamethread, Randy Wolf's brother was the homeplate ump. Due to conflict of interest, his brother is not allowed to ump Brewer games. The point was also made that he probably shouldn't be allowed to ump any games involving NL Central teams and I agree. Just keep him out of the NL entirely. He was very inconsistent and it appeared that the Indians pitchers were getting pitches called for strikes that the Reds pitchers (especially Latos) were not.

Keep him off home plate during potentially conflicting games, at the very least.

Chip R
06-19-2012, 10:07 AM
As someone mentioned in the gamethread, Randy Wolf's brother was the homeplate ump. Due to conflict of interest, his brother is not allowed to ump Brewer games. The point was also made that he probably shouldn't be allowed to ump any games involving NL Central teams and I agree. Just keep him out of the NL entirely. He was very inconsistent and it appeared that the Indians pitchers were getting pitches called for strikes that the Reds pitchers (especially Latos) were not.

From what I heard, he was consistently lousy.

Here's a tip for teams who think their signs are being stolen: Change the signs. It's not brain surgery.

Sea Ray
06-19-2012, 10:09 AM
That is a good question but the better question is how can you prove someone was stealing signs unless they come out and admit it?

It's a judgement call just like how can you tell if a pitcher is throwing at a hitter or was it just a pitch that got away? I'm curious if the MLB rules address stealing signs at all then we can see how to prove it

MWM
06-19-2012, 10:21 AM
Last night's ump is the worst I've seen this year, and it's not even close. It's rare I think poor umpiring has much impact on a game, but last night was ridiculous. He was all over the place, equally lousy on both sides I thought. But if that's the best he can do, he has no business being a major league umpire.

George Anderson
06-19-2012, 10:26 AM
It's a judgement call just like how can you tell if a pitcher is throwing at a hitter or was it just a pitch that got away? I'm curious if the MLB rules address stealing signs at all then we can see how to prove it

As long as something video or cameras are not used, then there is no rule against stealing signs.

Patrick Bateman
06-19-2012, 10:28 AM
He could just be tipping his pitches. Might explain why it seems like hitters jump on every single mistake he makes.

westofyou
06-19-2012, 10:33 AM
As old as the game it is

In 1909, Highlanders manager George Stallings rented an apartment behind the right-field fence of the team’s Hilltop Park, from which he had someone relay signs by flashing a mirror at the batter.

Stallings also was in Philly in the late 19th century when they out a foot button in the coaches box, one for a FB two for a curve, they only hit caught because the other team pondered why the coach was standing in a puddle one rainy day

Now... Those are both examples of stealing signs being illegal

Picking up the signs from 2nd base is fair play

George Anderson
06-19-2012, 10:38 AM
As old as the game it is

In 1909, Highlanders manager George Stallings rented an apartment behind the right-field fence of the team’s Hilltop Park, from which he had someone relay signs by flashing a mirror at the batter.

Stallings also was in Philly in the late 19th century when they out a foot button in the coaches box, one for a FB two for a curve, they only hit caught because the other team pondered why the coach was standing in a puddle one rainy day

Now... Those are both examples of stealing signs being illegal

Picking up the signs from 2nd base is fair play

Bobby Thompson was also tipped off in the 1951 infamous playoff game by someone in the scoreboard with binoculars.

HokieRed
06-19-2012, 10:51 AM
Didn't see the game so I'm just speculating. Is Latos simply too predictable?

bucksfan2
06-19-2012, 10:58 AM
Didn't see the game so I'm just speculating. Is Latos simply too predictable?

I think its an aberration more than anything else. He wasn't getting the inside strike on his fastball and wasn't getting the high strike for his curve. He was forced to come more onto the plate to get strike calls and the Indians were swinging for the fences. It doesn't hurt that the Indians loaded the order with 15 left handers.

PuffyPig
06-19-2012, 10:58 AM
Let's be honest, the trade was also made to help for THIS year (the "all in" year) and so far it hasn't come close to doing that.

2012 is not an "all-in" year. We should be better in the next 1-3 years than we are now.

Thye "all-in" was based on Votto being here a maximum of 2 years, and Marshall and Phillips being here 1 year.

Who is an important part of the 2012 team that won't be back next year? I'd suggest no one. And with a very young team, we can expect improvement on many fronts.

PuffyPig
06-19-2012, 11:00 AM
From what I heard, he was consistently lousy.

Here's a tip for teams who think their signs are being stolen: Change the signs. It's not brain surgery.

Teams change signs frequently throughout a game.

Dan
06-19-2012, 11:17 AM
As someone mentioned in the gamethread, Randy Wolf's brother was the homeplate ump. Due to conflict of interest, his brother is not allowed to ump Brewer games. The point was also made that he probably shouldn't be allowed to ump any games involving NL Central teams and I agree. Just keep him out of the NL entirely. He was very inconsistent and it appeared that the Indians pitchers were getting pitches called for strikes that the Reds pitchers (especially Latos) were not.

The Votto strike out was most telling. The last pitch, which was called a strike, was lower than the next-to-last pitch of the ab, which was called a ball. Inconsistent at best.

Kc61
06-19-2012, 11:24 AM
Interesting Latos stat. Mat gave up exactly 16 homers in 2010, in 2011, and again now in 2012.

Unfortunately for the 2012 stat, it's June.

Looking at his numbers, the long balls are killing him.

Chip R
06-19-2012, 11:31 AM
Teams change signs frequently throughout a game.

Evidently the Reds didn't until it was too late.

BuckeyeRedleg
06-19-2012, 11:47 AM
Interesting Latos stat. Mat gave up exactly 16 homers in 2010, in 2011, and again now in 2012.

Unfortunately for the 2012 stat, it's June.

Looking at his numbers, the long balls are killing him.

That and his K/9 have dropped (9.21 to 8.57, to 7.91) and BB/9 have increased (2.44 to 2.87 to 2.94) over the last two years since his peak season of 2010.

Nasty_Boy
06-19-2012, 12:03 PM
This thread comes to mind after reading his comments.

http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=94721&highlight=Bailey+Latos

757690
06-19-2012, 12:12 PM
It's not against the rules to steal signs "on the field" it's against the rules to use outside parties or tools to steal signs.

Here's an article from a few years ago

http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/32768612/ns/sports-baseball/

I believe that it is against the rules for a batter to peek behind him at the catcher to steal the sign. I also believe that it is against the rules for runners to give signals to the hitter about what the next pitch would be.

I know the latter came up recently, I think the White Sox accused another team of it, and it was a big story.

westofyou
06-19-2012, 12:22 PM
I believe that it is against the rules for a batter to peek behind him at the catcher to steal the sign. I also believe that it is against the rules for runners to give signals to the hitter about what the next pitch would be.

I know the latter came up recently, I think the White Sox accused another team of it, and it was a big story.

Batters peeking is not against the rules, but it will get a ball thrown at your ear

757690
06-19-2012, 12:32 PM
Batters peeking is not against the rules, but it will get a ball thrown at your ear

Probably right. Not in the rule book, but not tolerated either.

I have no problem with teams trying to steal signs, every team does it all the time. But if this happened, it has to be on Hanigan. This is one of the most important jobs of a catcher, and all catchers are constantly aware of it.

It could just be that the ump was so bad last night, that most hitters knew what was coming, since pitchers couldn't get borderline pitches called for strikes. That does make sense.

OnBaseMachine
06-19-2012, 12:32 PM
He could just be tipping his pitches. Might explain why it seems like hitters jump on every single mistake he makes.

Glad I'm not the only one who has noticed this. All pitchers make mistakes, some just get away with more than others. But it seems as if Latos has paid for every mistake he's made this season. Instead of fouling them straight back, the batters are crushing his mistake pitches. I hadn't thought of that but he could very well be tipping his pitches. His stuff is too good to be getting hit around like he has. Another explanation for his struggles could be that he's no longer throwing the slider as much. Red Reporter tweeted last night he's throwing his slider 20% less this season, which makes no sense considering it's probably his best out pitch. The decrease in the usage of his slider has resulted in LH batters teeing off on him.

Crumbley
06-19-2012, 12:56 PM
He's brutal, reminds me a lot of Homer at his worst.

Roy Tucker
06-19-2012, 01:18 PM
Teams steal signs all the time (or at least try to). It's part of the game. As long as it's done in a legal fashion, then pay attention and apply counter-measures. Change signs and maybe knock a guy or 2 down. That's a signal too :)

Latos sounds like sour grapes with this. You keep this under your hat and in the clubhouse.

RichRed
06-19-2012, 01:24 PM
I'm less concerned about Latos's physical talent than I am about his apparent tendency toward meatheadedness.

WMR
06-19-2012, 01:49 PM
What a disappointment this guy has been so far. And he appears somewhat immature to boot.

757690
06-19-2012, 02:01 PM
Anyone have the details on his last start in 2010? It had huge playoff implications, and I heard that a few days before, he got a tattoo on his back, and the Padres think that might have effected his performance.

I heard about it on MLB the network back then, but haven't found anything in print on it.

powersackers
06-19-2012, 02:04 PM
This is nothing that a well placed fastball and ensuing brawl can't fix. Whoever did it will pay and hopefully no one gets too hurt.

traderumor
06-19-2012, 02:10 PM
I'll take the talent, which you can't teach. Assuming he has a normal IQ, you can teach him PR skills. Or he may just be a morally inferior person. Good thing we're all better than that or the world would be an awful place with too many degenerates like him running around. Us good people balance it out some.

traderumor
06-19-2012, 02:11 PM
Anyone have the details on his last start in 2010? It had huge playoff implications, and I heard that a few days before, he got a tattoo on his back, and the Padres think that might have effected his performance.

I heard about it on MLB the network back then, but haven't found anything in print on it.I heard he has ties to anarchists also.

reds1869
06-19-2012, 02:16 PM
I heard he has ties to anarchists also.

Nope. It is the Illuminati.

hebroncougar
06-19-2012, 02:18 PM
This is nothing that a well placed fastball and ensuing brawl can't fix. Whoever did it will pay and hopefully no one gets too hurt.

Honestly, I think this is what you get tonight. These two teams are itching. And if Latos thought signs were getting stolen, its real simple. Call for a curve or slider, have catcher sit low and away, and buzz him. That solves that problem.

Sent from my Desire HD using Tapatalk 2

Tom Servo
06-19-2012, 02:19 PM
I heard Mat Latos once killed a man just for sneezing.

kaldaniels
06-19-2012, 02:20 PM
I've read several people on here saying stealing signs from 2B is against the rules. Can we put that notion to rest?

westofyou
06-19-2012, 03:13 PM
I heard Mat Latos once killed a man just for sneezing.

The padres laugh at his discomfort

Always Red
06-19-2012, 03:50 PM
The padres laugh at his discomfort

I knew Latos had Opus Dei ties...

Vottomatic
06-19-2012, 04:02 PM
.... but to call the trade a bust after only 14 starts - especially when the players that went the other way aren't exactly doing well themselves - is way premature.

1. Please point to the word "bust" in my post. :confused:

2. Reds traded 3 prospects and a #4 starter (Volquez) for what was considered a proven commodity - solid #1 or #2 starting pitcher.

3. The future really only applies to prospects because they are "potential". Latos is considered a "finished product".

Will Latos improve? Find himself? Find his pitches? Get in a groove? Yes, he may.

But in 14 starts, he has been a HUGE disappointment.

757690
06-19-2012, 04:10 PM
1. Please point to the word "bust" in my post. :confused:

2. Reds traded 3 prospects and a #4 starter (Volquez) for what was considered a proven commodity - solid #1 or #2 starting pitcher.

3. The future really only applies to prospects because they are "potential". Latos is considered a "finished product".

Will Latos improve? Find himself? Find his pitches? Get in a groove? Yes, he may.

But in 14 starts, he has been a HUGE disappointment.

Mat Latos is younger than Alonso and Volquez, and less than a year older than Grandel and Boxberger.

How many 24 year old pitchers can you name that were considered finished products at age 24?

camisadelgolf
06-19-2012, 04:11 PM
Stealing signs is why guys like Miguel Cairo are still able to sign Major League contracts. Of course no one will publicly say that, but another name for it is "intangibles".

WVPacman
06-19-2012, 04:15 PM
Ludwick should have swung at the last pitch of the game b/c it was way to close to take but he had'nt called that a strike all game for either team. Did anybody notice after he called strike three the indians catcher looked back pointed his glove to the ump and the ump looked and shook his head up and down at the catcher.

George Anderson
06-19-2012, 04:21 PM
I heard Mat Latos once killed a man just for sneezing.

I heard he killed a man in Reno just to watch him die.

camisadelgolf
06-19-2012, 04:23 PM
I heard he killed a man in Reno just to watch him die.
Yeah, he shouldn't have taken his guns to town. :(

Tom Servo
06-19-2012, 04:29 PM
Somebody needs to go back in time and inform Chris Carpenter in 1999, Cliff Lee in 2002, and Roy Halladay in 2001 that they are finished products because apparently they didn't get the 'finished product at age 24' memo.

Vottomatic
06-19-2012, 04:39 PM
Somebody needs to go back in time and inform Chris Carpenter in 1999, Cliff Lee in 2002, and Roy Halladay in 2001 that they are finished products because apparently they didn't get the 'finished product at age 24' memo.

Funny stuff. Obviously you missed the point of my post.

The Reds didn't trade for a guy developing. And his career stats said he was one of the premier pitchers in baseball.

I guess you were looking for a guy developing that would post an e.r.a. over 5.00 in his first 14 starts.

"He's only 24!" "He's still young!" - ORG mantra

Tom Servo
06-19-2012, 04:45 PM
Funny stuff. Obviously you missed the point of my post.

The Reds didn't trade for a guy developing. And his career stats said he was one of the premier pitchers in baseball.

I guess you were looking for a guy developing that would post an e.r.a. over 5.00 in his first 14 starts.

"He's only 24!" "He's still young!" - ORG mantra

I don't have a feeling anymore. This team was D.O.A. unfortunately.

Same exact problems for the last 3 years and Walt and Bob have failed to address them.

No true cleanup hitter is the giant mistake.



Put a fork in them, they're done. We suck. We have an idiot manager, streaky offense, and terrible bullpen.

Arroyo with probably his best outing in 2 years and Dusty takes him out of the game. I've seen enough.


-Vottomatic mantra

Vottomatic
06-19-2012, 04:49 PM
-Vottomatic mantra

One of these days you'll learn to respect other people's opinions without all the insults. Differing opinions are part of life.

Tom Servo
06-19-2012, 04:53 PM
One of these days you'll learn to respect other people's opinions without all the insults. Differing opinions are part of life.
So quoting your posts is an insult?

My point, if it's not obvious, is that you obviously have a history of lacking in patience and making snap judgments.

Patrick Bateman
06-19-2012, 05:01 PM
One of these days you'll learn to respect other people's opinions without all the insults. Differing opinions are part of life.

The posts quoted point to trollish behaviour used to bait other posters.

Are you honestly reading your posts and thinking that there is no way to use more tact in pointing out flaws in the Reds? Plenty of posters do without resorting to without the immature approach.

DGullett35
06-19-2012, 05:10 PM
This is off topic but I felt like this would be the right thread to share my story. I took my Dad up to the game in Cleveland last night for a fathers day gift. We had great seats down the first base line about 10 rows up from the Reds dugout. About a half hour before the game I decided to go down to the Reds bullpen and watch Latos warm up. My Dad decided to stay in his seat and I went by myself. I followed two girls all the way to the bullpen.(2 very nice looking girls I might add) I overheard the whole way to the bullpen the one girl cussing and complaining about how rude and idiotic Cleveland people in general were. When I got to the bullpen I stopped and watched Latos warm up with Price and Porky overlooking him. The two girls were arguing with an Indians Usher about how they were not allowed to go to the otherside of the bullpen onto the party deck to watch the bullpen session. After cussing at the Usher the 2 girls come over to where I am standing and at this point its just us three watching the bullpen session. One of the girls starts talking to me and apologizes for her outbirst saying that she was just frustrated and nervous and asks me my name. I tell her my name and she proceeds to tell me her name is Dallas. I give her an odd look and ask her if she is Mats wife. She gives me an odd look back and says yes and asks me how did I know that. I responded back that I do research alot of Reds stuff on the internet and that I do follow her on twitter. Long story short she turned out to be a very nice girl and asked me about some stuff to do in Ohio since she and Mat were from Northern Cali. I told her about Cedar point ect. It was a very interesting convo and I never would have thought I would have ever met her. She said she travels only to games where he is starting and even said she can tell by his bullpen session if hes going to have a bad start or not. She never did mention what he was going to do last night but i guess it wasn't a very good bullpen session:)

fearofpopvol1
06-19-2012, 05:11 PM
Anthony Castrovince (beat writer for the Indians and former beat writer for the Reds) says the Indians claimed Latos is tipping his pitches.

Anthony Castrovince ‏@castrovince: Mat Latos accuses Indians of stealing signs. Tribe player responds, "There's no need to steal signs when you're tipping your pitches."

Blitz Dorsey
06-19-2012, 05:21 PM
Latos was tipping his pitches, but had the nerve to call out the Indians for cheating? How about don't tip your pitches, big guy? The Tribe coaches obviously saw something on film and passed that on to their hitters. That's a lot more plausible than they were "stealing signs."

Always an excuse for Latos. "He's adjusting to GABP" ... "The Indians were stealing signs." ... "He's still young."

How about some reality: He's not getting the job done. Period. I don't care what his W-L record is. That's an antiquated way of measuring pitchers. He gets a tremendous amount of run support and often finds a way to waste it.

traderumor
06-19-2012, 05:24 PM
Funny stuff. Obviously you missed the point of my post.

The Reds didn't trade for a guy developing. And his career stats said he was one of the premier pitchers in baseball.

I guess you were looking for a guy developing that would post an e.r.a. over 5.00 in his first 14 starts.

"He's only 24!" "He's still young!" - ORG mantraI think the point is that, as a 24 year old, he is still developing, albeit at the major league level. While he is clearly ahead of the curve in his career path, that doesn't mean that bumps in the road now aren't development related because he is still a young pitcher, in baseball age.

He probably hasn't even pitched his best baseball yet in his career. He just happened to put up 2/3 of an awesome season at 22, so now he is supposed to be a "finished product" at 24? I wouldn't say those are realistic expectations.

Right now his development is "hmmmm, do I need to fix something to quit giving up dingers?"

camisadelgolf
06-19-2012, 05:29 PM
Latos was tipping his pitches, but had the nerve to call out the Indians for cheating? How about don't tip your pitches, big guy? The Tribe coaches obviously saw something on film and passed that on to their hitters. That's a lot more plausible than they were "stealing signs."

Always an excuse for Latos. "He's adjusting to GABP" ... "The Indians were stealing signs." ... "He's still young."

How about some reality: He's not getting the job done. Period. I don't care what his W-L record is. That's an antiquated way of measuring pitchers. He gets a tremendous amount of run support and often finds a way to waste it.
With Latos on the mound, that was the first time the Reds lost in over a month. They're 8-6 when he pitches. I'm not sure "often finds a way to waste tremendous amounts of run support" is the best way to put it. Is he effective? No. Does he need to improve? Yes. Personally, I'd be more worried about Mike Leake than Mat Latos. But you got one thing right for sure--Leake is smart enough to keep his mouth shout. However, if Latos didn't publicly say anything about stealing signs, he probably never would've found out he was tipping his pitches, so maybe he's being smart about it after all.

traderumor
06-19-2012, 05:29 PM
Latos was tipping his pitches, but had the nerve to call out the Indians for cheating? How about don't tip your pitches, big guy? The Tribe coaches obviously saw something on film and passed that on to their hitters. That's a lot more plausible than they were "stealing signs."

Always an excuse for Latos. "He's adjusting to GABP" ... "The Indians were stealing signs." ... "He's still young."

How about some reality: He's not getting the job done. Period. I don't care what his W-L record is. That's an antiquated way of measuring pitchers. He gets a tremendous amount of run support and often finds a way to waste it.How do you know he was tipping his pitches? What makes the Indians claim more reliable than Latos' claim? If teams don't/can't steal signs, then why do catchers roll through a code to put down the pitch with a runner on second? To keep the pitcher's head in the game?

Excuses for Latos, or folks trying to figure out why he is peforming below expectations? Should reasonable explanations be ruled out because deadpanners might construe that as "excuse making?" I'd say quit worrying about deadpanners, who find fault in anything and everything, as a hobby apparently.

westofyou
06-19-2012, 05:36 PM
So quoting your posts is an insult?

My point, if it's not obvious, is that you obviously have a history of lacking in patience and making snap judgments.

He tipped that behavior when he found the submit button

fearofpopvol1
06-19-2012, 05:45 PM
How do you know he was tipping his pitches? What makes the Indians claim more reliable than Latos' claim? If teams don't/can't steal signs, then why do catchers roll through a code to put down the pitch with a runner on second? To keep the pitcher's head in the game?

Excuses for Latos, or folks trying to figure out why he is peforming below expectations? Should reasonable explanations be ruled out because deadpanners might construe that as "excuse making?" I'd say quit worrying about deadpanners, who find fault in anything and everything, as a hobby apparently.

Baker and Hanigan don't seem to be so sure of the sign stealing.

http://marksheldon.mlblogs.com/2012/06/19/indians-deny-stealing-signs/

mbgrayson
06-19-2012, 05:51 PM
Mark Sheldon has a great piece up this afternoon on this issue, HERE (http://marksheldon.mlblogs.com/).


Reds manager Dusty Baker did not feel that sign stealing was an issue on Monday. “I’m not going to accuse anybody of something that I’m not sure of,” Baker said. “You don’t really have to steal signs when the ball is over the heart of the plate and up. … It just wasn’t a quality night. He made a number of mistakes last night.”


Catcher Ryan Hanigan said: ... (details on blog)
“I don’t think that was necessarily at all the reason why things didn’t go the way they needed to go last night.”

There is much more on Sheldon's blog. After reading it, I don't think any sign stealing was happening last night. Tipping pitches? Maybe...

WVRedsFan
06-19-2012, 05:56 PM
This is off topic but I felt like this would be the right thread to share my story. I took my Dad up to the game in Cleveland last night for a fathers day gift. We had great seats down the first base line about 10 rows up from the Reds dugout. About a half hour before the game I decided to go down to the Reds bullpen and watch Latos warm up. My Dad decided to stay in his seat and I went by myself. I followed two girls all the way to the bullpen.(2 very nice looking girls I might add) I overheard the whole way to the bullpen the one girl cussing and complaining about how rude and idiotic Cleveland people in general were. When I got to the bullpen I stopped and watched Latos warm up with Price and Porky overlooking him. The two girls were arguing with an Indians Usher about how they were not allowed to go to the otherside of the bullpen onto the party deck to watch the bullpen session. After cussing at the Usher the 2 girls come over to where I am standing and at this point its just us three watching the bullpen session. One of the girls starts talking to me and apologizes for her outbirst saying that she was just frustrated and nervous and asks me my name. I tell her my name and she proceeds to tell me her name is Dallas. I give her an odd look and ask her if she is Mats wife. She gives me an odd look back and says yes and asks me how did I know that. I responded back that I do research alot of Reds stuff on the internet and that I do follow her on twitter. Long story short she turned out to be a very nice girl and asked me about some stuff to do in Ohio since she and Mat were from Northern Cali. I told her about Cedar point ect. It was a very interesting convo and I never would have thought I would have ever met her. She said she travels only to games where he is starting and even said she can tell by his bullpen session if hes going to have a bad start or not. She never did mention what he was going to do last night but i guess it wasn't a very good bullpen session:)This is so true of meeting people in person rather than on-line or in email. Where I made a snap judgment last night in the game thread about Dallas, you found that in truth she was a nice girl in person. We all make those assumptions whether here in RZ or in various emails. It's not fair, but it's the human condition. Glad you posted that.

RedFanAlways1966
06-19-2012, 06:01 PM
Tipping pitches, stealing signs... hogwash. Bad pitching... ding-ding-ding.

Same pitcher, same team... same pitcher's last start: 7IP, 7H, 2ER. Gee, did not seem to be stealing too many signs or must not have picked up on that tipping pitches thing 5 days prior. Sure, must have been the homeplate umpire.

I think a certain pitcher stunk last night (well, a few pitchers stunk for both teams). I hope that pitcher learns. I also hope that pitcher shuts his mouth (grows up). The only thing worse than stinking it up is WHINING after stinking in the game.

camisadelgolf
06-19-2012, 06:06 PM
And here's another article on the subject. It's pretty much the same as Sheldon's. http://cincinnati.com/blogs/reds/2012/06/19/acta-indians-not-stealing-signs/

Blitz Dorsey
06-19-2012, 06:07 PM
I think the point is that, as a 24 year old, he is still developing, albeit at the major league level. While he is clearly ahead of the curve in his career path, that doesn't mean that bumps in the road now aren't development related because he is still a young pitcher, in baseball age.

He probably hasn't even pitched his best baseball yet in his career. He just happened to put up 2/3 of an awesome season at 22, so now he is supposed to be a "finished product" at 24? I wouldn't say those are realistic expectations.

Right now his development is "hmmmm, do I need to fix something to quit giving up dingers?"

Hopefully we can all agree Mat Latos is not a "finished product" at the age of 24. Hopefully we can also all agree that Latos has been a disappointment up to this point in his brief time with the Reds. Not a huge disappointment (and I would still do "the trade" all over again) but a disappointment nonetheless. And the constant excuse-making for the guy is amazing. Leave that to his wife -- she does a pretty good job of it anyway. The lady responds to almost every negative tweet about Mat.

Vottomatic
06-19-2012, 07:05 PM
So quoting your posts is an insult?

My point, if it's not obvious, is that you obviously have a history of lacking in patience and making snap judgments.

Saying Latos has been a huge disappointment after 14 starts and a plus 5.00 e.r.a. is a snap judgement?

Wow. Simply wow.

redsmetz
06-19-2012, 07:08 PM
Dusty pretty much said what we said, if you don't want them stealing your signs from 2nd, then keep them off 2nd; and if you center the ball over the plate, they're supposed to hit those.

Vottomatic
06-19-2012, 07:12 PM
Hopefully we can all agree Mat Latos is not a "finished product" at the age of 24. Hopefully we can also all agree that Latos has been a disappointment up to this point in his brief time with the Reds. Not a huge disappointment (and I would still do "the trade" all over again) but a disappointment nonetheless. And the constant excuse-making for the guy is amazing. Leave that to his wife -- she does a pretty good job of it anyway. The lady responds to almost every negative tweet about Mat.

Okay. I have a tendency to sometimes use a word that incorrectly describes what I'm thinking. Finished Product is one of these instances.

To correct myself, if I may.......my point is that Latos had a 2.92 e.r.a. in 2010 and a 3.47 e.r.a. in 2012, making 31 starts each season. He also finished in the top 10 of many NL pitching categories. The dude was one of the best pitchers in the NL. Hence, the Cincinnati Reds trading (2) former #1 picks, and off the top of my head Boxberger who was either a comp #1 pick or a #2 pick, and Volquez who the Reds obtained for Hamilton. That's alot.

I guess I simply ask? What happened?

Blitz Dorsey
06-19-2012, 08:15 PM
Okay. I have a tendency to sometimes use a word that incorrectly describes what I'm thinking. Finished Product is one of these instances.

To correct myself, if I may.......my point is that Latos had a 2.92 e.r.a. in 2010 and a 3.47 e.r.a. in 2012, making 31 starts each season. He also finished in the top 10 of many NL pitching categories. The dude was one of the best pitchers in the NL. Hence, the Cincinnati Reds trading (2) former #1 picks, and off the top of my head Boxberger who was either a comp #1 pick or a #2 pick, and Volquez who the Reds obtained for Hamilton. That's alot.

I guess I simply ask? What happened?

Do you want Yonder Alonso and his .260 BA and 2 HRs back? A guy who can only play 1B while we have the best 1B in the NL by far?

Do you want Yasmani Grandal back, who is subpar to Devin Mesoraco as a batter and especially defensively?

Do you want Brad Boxberger back? (Ok, I do too.)

Do you want Edinson Volquez back? (Exactly.)

Good trade for the Reds? Yes. Has Latos been a disappointment for the Reds thus far? Yes.

mth123
06-19-2012, 08:56 PM
As long as something video or cameras are not used, then there is no rule against stealing signs.

Exactly. If the Indians runners were stealing signs and relaying to the hitter, that's just a part of baseball and the Reds are chumps for letting it happen. Less runners on 2B would help a lot and the ability to change it up and vary the indicators should help to foil this.

This is whining IMO. I don't like it when the Reds whine.

kaldaniels
06-19-2012, 09:08 PM
One of these days you'll learn to respect other people's opinions without all the insults. Differing opinions are part of life.

The issue (in my opinion :D) stems when opinions are framed as know-it-all facts. A little tact goes along way.

traderumor
06-19-2012, 11:15 PM
Hopefully we can all agree Mat Latos is not a "finished product" at the age of 24. Hopefully we can also all agree that Latos has been a disappointment up to this point in his brief time with the Reds. Not a huge disappointment (and I would still do "the trade" all over again) but a disappointment nonetheless. And the constant excuse-making for the guy is amazing. Leave that to his wife -- she does a pretty good job of it anyway. The lady responds to almost every negative tweet about Mat.Sure everyone's disappointed that he doesn't have a 2 something ERA, just like folks are ready to fire the closer tonight and imagine that we'd be 20 over if we won every game we "should" or didn't "blow." Doesn't mean that some of the "disappointment" isn't springing from unrealistic and uninformed expectations.

cumberlandreds
06-20-2012, 09:21 AM
Yonder Alonso will be fine, but he is not magically turning into Adrian Gonzalez. Volquez is still a pumpkin.

I'm still ok with that trade. Unless there is something physical, there was little in Latos' track record to indicate that he was not going to be a solid No. 2 starter. Lets see how it goes from here, still plenty of season left.

I agree with you. Alonso will never hit for power. He's, at best, another Sean Casey. Plus the Reds have Votto for the next decade. Volquez will always be inconsistent at best. Grandahl is the only one who could make this trade look really bad on down the line. It will take a few seasons to realy know how good he might be. The Reds were betting that Latos will grow up someday. Hopefully he will and be a good consistent pitcher. We won't know that for a few more seasons either.

Vottomatic
06-20-2012, 09:53 AM
Do you want Yonder Alonso and his .260 BA and 2 HRs back? A guy who can only play 1B while we have the best 1B in the NL by far?

Do you want Yasmani Grandal back, who is subpar to Devin Mesoraco as a batter and especially defensively?

Do you want Brad Boxberger back? (Ok, I do too.)

Do you want Edinson Volquez back? (Exactly.)

Good trade for the Reds? Yes. Has Latos been a disappointment for the Reds thus far? Yes.

I disagree about Grandal. He may end up being the crown jewel of the trade.

Alonso isn't hitting like I thought he would. I think everyone is glad to get rid of Volquez.

I think Boxberger is one of those guys who is not a "finished product". :laugh:(making fun of myself)

KronoRed
06-20-2012, 09:32 PM
Will Arroyo claim the same? ;)

Tom Servo
06-30-2012, 07:17 PM
2 GS, 18 innings, 2 ER, 6 hits (1 HR), 2 BB, 20 K's


since the night he imploded in Cleveland and may or may not have been tipping his pitches.

reds1869
06-30-2012, 07:21 PM
2 GS, 18 innings, 2 ER, 6 hits (1 HR), 2 BB, 20 K's


since the night he imploded in Cleveland and may or may not have been tipping his pitches.

This is the Latos the Reds traded for. He has been simply brilliant the last two starts.

DGullett35
06-30-2012, 07:54 PM
This is the Latos the Reds traded for. He has been simply brilliant the last two starts.

I agree with you 100% Confidence is what this kid needs and right now hes full of it.

Blitz Dorsey
06-30-2012, 10:30 PM
2 GS, 18 innings, 2 ER, 6 hits (1 HR), 2 BB, 20 K's


since the night he imploded in Cleveland and may or may not have been tipping his pitches.

Pretty, pretty, pretty good (Larry David).

How does the crow taste, you ask? Outstanding. Can I have more? I like some stadium mustard with my deep-fried crow.

:beerme:

PuffyPig
07-01-2012, 08:21 AM
Pretty, pretty, pretty good (Larry David).



C'mon Blitz, if you are going to quote Larry, get it right:

It's "prettay, prettay, prettay, pretty good".....;););)

mbgrayson
07-01-2012, 11:50 AM
Does anyone think that Latos really was tipping his pitches, and that maybe the Indians did us a big favor by saying what they did? In theory, this could have led to adjustments being made, and much better results....

I have no idea....

oregonred
07-01-2012, 01:15 PM
Does anyone think that Latos really was tipping his pitches, and that maybe the Indians did us a big favor by saying what they did? In theory, this could have led to adjustments being made, and much better results....

I have no idea....

I say absolutely based on the evidence. Sounds like he's been working with Price quite a bit since the shallacking by the Indians. At least for once the Indians are good for something...

traderumor
07-02-2012, 04:06 PM
tipping his pitches or using his slider? I didn't see Saturday's start, but that was the key for the shutdown of the Brewers.

oregonred
07-02-2012, 04:37 PM
When his slider is on he can tip that pitch and it almost doesn't matter. Dude is a stud if he can keep his focus and minimize the GABP HRs. Hopefully Arroyo and Leake's pitching approach and overall work ethic rub off on him.

Latos is averaging 9.5 K's/9IP since the end of April and his K/BB ratio (3.21) is now above his career average in 2012. He's got great command and has top of the rotation fixture written all over him. This could be fun to watch the rest of the way...

traderumor
07-02-2012, 04:49 PM
When his slider is on he can tip that pitch and it almost doesn't matter. Dude is a stud if he can keep his focus and minimize the GABP HRs. Hopefully Arroyo and Leake's pitching approach and overall work ethic rub off on him.

Latos is averaging 9.5 K's/9IP since the end of April and his K/BB ratio (3.21) is now above his career average in 2012. He's got great command and has top of the rotation fixture written all over him. This could be fun to watch the rest of the way...His splits were that he had been "better" at GAB after those two disasters in Houston and Cleveland. If he has his slider back, he'll be fine and pitch like we expected him to. Oh yea, and if he has adjusted his attitude (all sarcasm intended) ;)