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Kc61
06-22-2012, 12:20 AM
Others have suggested this, but maybe it's time to switch them for awhile. Let Mes play every day at AAA for awhile. Let Navarro back up Hanigan for awhile. Say about a month.

Navarro is hitting very well at AAA, his OBP is over .400, his OPS is .858. He is a switch hitter. He is good enough to back up Hanigan for awhile.

I think Mes could benefit from several weeks of playing every day at AAA. He's just not getting enough at bats to get going in the NL.

My concept would be to send Mes down, hope he gets hot with the bat, and then bring him up as a hot hitter.

This isn't a knock on Mesoraco, just an idea that might benefit the Reds and Devin.

Reds/Flyers Fan
06-22-2012, 12:51 AM
Or what about bringing up Navarro as a third catcher, thus freeing Mesoraco or Hanigan (whoever isn't playing that night) to pinch hit or be double-switched into the game. It would instantly upgrade the bench.

dougdirt
06-22-2012, 06:41 AM
Devin Mesoraco has started on back to back days twice this season. Both in April. The playing distribution needs to be changed to even that out a little bit more.

edabbs44
06-22-2012, 06:56 AM
Or what about bringing up Navarro as a third catcher, thus freeing Mesoraco or Hanigan (whoever isn't playing that night) to pinch hit or be double-switched into the game. It would instantly upgrade the bench.

Not sure that Mes is the optimal pinch hitter at this stage.

edabbs44
06-22-2012, 07:10 AM
But I agree with the idea that this is something to consider whether internally or externally.

RANDY IN INDY
06-22-2012, 07:56 AM
Devin Mesoraco has started on back to back days twice this season. Both in April. The playing distribution needs to be changed to even that out a little bit more.

I agree with this, Doug. The kid needs some more consistent playing time.

Reds Freak
06-22-2012, 08:23 AM
I agree with this, Doug. The kid needs some more consistent playing time.

The kid hasn't earned consistent playing time with the big club. If it's determined he needs consistent playing time, it should be in AAA. I think he's going to be a great catcher, but the Reds can't afford to take Hanigan out of the lineup more and out from behind the dish just because Mes needs to get ready for the future.

dougdirt
06-22-2012, 08:29 AM
The kid hasn't earned consistent playing time with the big club. If it's determined he needs consistent playing time, it should be in AAA. I think he's going to be a great catcher, but the Reds can't afford to take Hanigan out of the lineup more and out from behind the dish just because Mes needs to get ready for the future.

You don't have to take Hanigan out of the lineup to play Mesoraco on back to back days. You just have to let Mesoraco and Hanigan flip one of the pitchers in the rotation. Is Johnny Cueto going to turn into a pumpkin if Mesoraco catches him once every 3 or 4 starts he makes? Will Homer Bailey lose his mind if Hanigan catches him once every 3-4 starts? Of course they won't.

dougdirt
06-22-2012, 08:31 AM
Heck, the Reds DH'd Willie Harris the other day instead of Mesoraco.

redsmetz
06-22-2012, 08:58 AM
Heck, the Reds DH'd Willie Harris the other day instead of Mesoraco.

I can't justify Harris DH'ing, but do you know any other club who would use their only spare catcher as the DH? I don't know the intricacies of the DH rules, but that would seem very problematic should you need a different catcher later in the game.

dougdirt
06-22-2012, 09:02 AM
I can't justify Harris DH'ing, but do you know any other club who would use their only spare catcher as the DH? I don't know the intricacies of the DH rules, but that would seem very problematic should you need a different catcher later in the game.

Can a DH not move to another position on the field later in the game?

westofyou
06-22-2012, 09:05 AM
Can a DH not move to another position on the field later in the game?
The designated hitter may become a position player at any point during the game; if he does so, his team forfeits the role of the designated hitter, and the pitcher or another player (possible only in case of a multiple substitution) must bat in the newly opened spot in the batting order.

dougdirt
06-22-2012, 09:08 AM
The designated hitter may become a position player at any point during the game; if he does so, his team forfeits the role of the designated hitter, and the pitcher or another player (possible only in case of a multiple substitution) must bat in the newly opened spot in the batting order.

That is what I thought. In the case of an 'emergency' when you have your back up catcher DH'ing, I think you can live with your pitcher batting.

MikeS21
06-22-2012, 09:10 AM
It would make no difference if the Reds sent Mes down "to get hot," if they brought him back up and then benched him like he is now. I would send Mes down ONLY because he needs to face pitching every day. I would start him five games out of seven and even let him DH on his off days. BUT, I would not bring him up until the Reds were ready to bench Hannigan once and for all in favor of Mes.

I just feel the Reds are wasting a year of development time on Mes. Nothing against Hannigan. It's just that Mes is the guy, who ten years from now, will cause us all to go, "Who's Ryan Hannigan?"

westofyou
06-22-2012, 09:18 AM
That is what I thought. In the case of an 'emergency' when you have your back up catcher DH'ing, I think you can live with your pitcher batting.

Yeah... "one" could live with it.

Let's see Dusty do it and then have the pitcher have to come up in a key situation.

I'm betting living with it would then no longer be acceptable, I'm 100% certain that he'd be dragged over the coals by the pundits here and in the press.

I love the damned if you do and damned if you don't approach to managing hoops Dusty has to jump through around here, this particular "want" would just be a hoop that happened to be lit with fire before we asked him to leap through it.

Kc61
06-22-2012, 09:34 AM
I don't see three catchers solving this problem. It would get Navarro to the bigs, that might be good. But three catchers would not solve the problem for Mesoraco.

My view is take it in steps. Step one is for Devin to get a month's playing time at AAA and hopefully rake.

Step two would be to bring him up in, say, August as a hot hitter with increased playing time.

Step three, hopefully, is that by next spring training Devin is the main catcher on the Reds.

There are some things I've seen from Devin that I like very much. But I think he needs some steady playing time about now. Too much sitting. AAA is probably the best scenario - again, for about a month, not forever.

Kc61
06-22-2012, 09:34 AM
Double post.

REDREAD
06-22-2012, 09:39 AM
Yeah... "one" could live with it.

Let's see Dusty do it and then have the pitcher have to come up in a key situation.
.

I agree. If the Reds ended up losing the DH due to a move Dusty made, he'd never hear the end of it..

Mersaco is starting 2 of 5 games. That's enough now, based on his performance. Hannigan is only starting 3 of 5 and it doesn't seem to impact his performance (In fact, Hannigan was never annoited "the MAN" and given playing time suggested to Mez, yet he's done quite well).

It sort of made sense to bring up a 3rd catcher when Rolen was on the DL.. but I'm not sure it makes much sense now. Stubbs is coming off the DL soon, that takes care of Willie's roster spot. Cario becomes the 25th man on the roster at that point, and with a 12 man pitching staff a guy like Cario is a lot more valuable than a 3rd catcher. The Reds would have to go to an 11 man pitching staff in order to carry a 3rd catcher.. Might be possible until Bray/Masset come back.. but on the other hand, it's really nice to have LeCure/Simon/Hoover to eat innings when needed.

lidspinner
06-22-2012, 09:40 AM
I think its a great idea to send DM down for a bit and bring up Navarro, but before you do that, and as said above, why not let DevMes have a good 3 day stretch of playing time, day off, then another 3 day stretch, day off and so on....do this up till the all star break and see what we have....Kid needs some time to get going and this might help Hanny stay fresh for the stretch run late in the summer....

we have a stud young talent in DM, we need to see if he can handle the job offensively before we going sending him down to get playing time...if he gives them 3-4 weeks of majority starts and still cant get his stats up then send him down in late July and go from there.....sending him down now is a knee jerk reaction that would be made without seeing what we have.....he is useless as a PH'er right now, Hanny on the other hand is not, so we would be accomplishing 2 things by going this route....

on the other hand, Hanny is playing great and to take him for 3-5 games each week could hurt the club in more ways than just offensive.....This is why Dusty and Walt make the money and I work 40 hour weeks making chump change compared to them....I would think that Dusty and Walt has already had a conversation similar to this and I would hope that they have a plan in place....maybe I am giving them to much credit??

lidspinner
06-22-2012, 09:41 AM
I think its a great idea to send DM down for a bit and bring up Navarro, but before you do that, and as said above, why not let DevMes have a good 3 day stretch of playing time, day off, then another 3 day stretch, day off and so on....do this up till the all star break and see what we have....Kid needs some time to get going and this might help Hanny stay fresh for the stretch run late in the summer....

we have a stud young talent in DM, we need to see if he can handle the job offensively before we going sending him down to get playing time...if he gives them 3-4 weeks of majority starts and still cant get his stats up then send him down in late July and go from there.....sending him down now is a knee jerk reaction that would be made without seeing what we have.....he is useless as a PH'er right now, Hanny on the other hand is not, so we would be accomplishing 2 things by going this route....

on the other hand, Hanny is playing great and to take him for 3-5 games each week could hurt the club in more ways than just offensive.....This is why Dusty and Walt make the money and I work 40 hour weeks making chump change compared to them....I would think that Dusty and Walt has already had a conversation similar to this and I would hope that they have a plan in place....maybe I am giving them to much credit??

I(heart)Freel
06-22-2012, 10:27 AM
Ah, the trials of developing talent during a pennant race!

Not to be a wet blanket but putting Mes in the minors for a little while could also buy the club an extra year of league minimum salary. At this point, he and Coz are both super two's since they started the year with the club.

Still, that's not the "reason" to do it. It's a nice side effect, I suppose. You only do it if that's what's best for Mes and the club's playoff chances.

edabbs44
06-22-2012, 11:49 AM
You don't have to take Hanigan out of the lineup to play Mesoraco on back to back days. You just have to let Mesoraco and Hanigan flip one of the pitchers in the rotation. Is Johnny Cueto going to turn into a pumpkin if Mesoraco catches him once every 3 or 4 starts he makes? Will Homer Bailey lose his mind if Hanigan catches him once every 3-4 starts? Of course they won't.

Is the "back to back" day thing more of an excuse than a legitimate reason as to why he is struggling?

kaldaniels
06-22-2012, 11:54 AM
Ah, the trials of developing talent during a pennant race!

Not to be a wet blanket but putting Mes in the minors for a little while could also buy the club an extra year of league minimum salary. At this point, he and Coz are both super two's since they started the year with the club.

Still, that's not the "reason" to do it. It's a nice side effect, I suppose. You only do it if that's what's best for Mes and the club's playoff chances.

Super 2 applies to guys called up in May/June not these guys. (yet)

bucksfan2
06-22-2012, 11:55 AM
Mes doesn't need time in the minors. He himself said earlier this year that he gains more sitting on the bench learning the MLB game than he did at AAA. The guy is going to get his shot maybe just not this season. The Reds have a heck of a catcher in Hanigan and a heck of a prospect in Mesoraco. So far this season I think they have done a decent job of handling both of them. Learning the MLB game is difficult let alone learning how to catch a MLB game.

RedsManRick
06-22-2012, 12:07 PM
Mes doesn't need time in the minors. He himself said earlier this year that he gains more sitting on the bench learning the MLB game than he did at AAA. The guy is going to get his shot maybe just not this season. The Reds have a heck of a catcher in Hanigan and a heck of a prospect in Mesoraco. So far this season I think they have done a decent job of handling both of them. Learning the MLB game is difficult let alone learning how to catch a MLB game.

I agree with this. If there is something specific that Mes is struggling with and which he can address through time in the minors, I'm all for it. But if he's learning things in the majors that cannot be learned in the minors, I want him here. When the time comes that we need 130 games from him, I want him to be as prepared as possible.

In the meantime, I don't think it's reasonable to believe that Navarro is going to do more to help us win ballgames in a part time role than Mes will. Mes has solid strikeout and walk rates and a decent ISO. He has a horrible BABIP though -- .200. Some of that might be a skill issue (e.g. too much upper-cut in his swing), but not all of it. In over 2000 major league PA, Navarro has proven that he isn't a good hitter (.244/.306/.353). While he's hitting well in AAA, that doesn't mean much of anything in terms of what he'll do in the majors. So for me, their respective performances this year is a completely non-issue.

In my mind, it's a two-step question:

1.) What's best for the Reds this year?
2.) What's best for Mes?

I think that the current workload balance reflects the right answers to those questions.

dougdirt
06-22-2012, 12:19 PM
Is the "back to back" day thing more of an excuse than a legitimate reason as to why he is struggling?

A .200 BABIP is probably the reason he is 'struggling'. He is hitting for power, walking and making a lot of contact.

I don't know if the back to back day thing means anything, but I can't imagine that it would help him. Don't you think it would help anyone, much less a 23 year old rookie to get some consecutive at bats at some point in the season? Or even catch the entire staff at some point? We are in the last week of June and the #1 catching prospect in the game has been in the Majors the entire season and hasn't caught two of the teams starters. That is flat out stupid. The Reds aren't planning on Ryan Hanigan for their future. They are planning on Devin Mesoraco as their future (if they weren't, they would have traded him instead of Grandal). But here we are, nearly half way through the season and he still hasn't caught a single game for 40% of our rotation. It is dumb.

I don't think he should be the 40 of the 60/40 split, but even if we are going to keep the splits how they are, wouldn't it benefit both him and Hanigan if they were both catching both pitchers? What happens if we make it to the playoffs and the 1-3 of the rotation are Cueto, Arroyo and Latos? Does that mean Hanigan starts all three games? What happens if Hanigan gets hurt at the end of the year? Then Mesoraco has to head to the playoffs with no experience catching the first two starters in your rotation.

The Reds are butchering the development of Mesoraco, much like they have with Chapman. Worrying about every single game as if it means everything rather than worrying about the longer term future of the team.

westofyou
06-22-2012, 12:46 PM
Stupid Reds!!

Stupid In first place Reds not doing what I think they should do!!

Really??

Tom Servo
06-22-2012, 01:14 PM
I could understand more of the outcry if Hanigan were putting up Heisey-esque numbers, but it is rather hard to justify benching a guy with the hitting and defensive abilities of Hanigan.

I will say though that I agree with Doug about Mez's BAPIP. Offhand I can recall many well hit balls by Mez that for one reason or another didn't lead to a base hit. He's definitely played better than his line may indicate.

redsmetz
06-22-2012, 01:18 PM
A .200 BABIP is probably the reason he is 'struggling'. He is hitting for power, walking and making a lot of contact.

I don't know if the back to back day thing means anything, but I can't imagine that it would help him. Don't you think it would help anyone, much less a 23 year old rookie to get some consecutive at bats at some point in the season? Or even catch the entire staff at some point? We are in the last week of June and the #1 catching prospect in the game has been in the Majors the entire season and hasn't caught two of the teams starters. That is flat out stupid. The Reds aren't planning on Ryan Hanigan for their future. They are planning on Devin Mesoraco as their future (if they weren't, they would have traded him instead of Grandal). But here we are, nearly half way through the season and he still hasn't caught a single game for 40% of our rotation. It is dumb.

I don't think he should be the 40 of the 60/40 split, but even if we are going to keep the splits how they are, wouldn't it benefit both him and Hanigan if they were both catching both pitchers? What happens if we make it to the playoffs and the 1-3 of the rotation are Cueto, Arroyo and Latos? Does that mean Hanigan starts all three games? What happens if Hanigan gets hurt at the end of the year? Then Mesoraco has to head to the playoffs with no experience catching the first two starters in your rotation.

The Reds are butchering the development of Mesoraco, much like they have with Chapman. Worrying about every single game as if it means everything rather than worrying about the longer term future of the team.

I don't know. You seem to get a bug in your burr and it sticks with you like nothing else. With all due respect, one can't say whether the Reds are "butchering" either player's development. Certainly you're welcome to your opinion, but that's all it is. Others have pointed it out, but Mesoraco's gaining far more from being here and seeing the pitchers and the batters and learning from the ML staff, etc. even if he's not getting the amount of play you believe is best for him.

As some have pointed out, the club is in first place. And while it's not a perfect team (few ever have been), it's worked thus far. I don't have any worries that Mesoraco could step in and catch any of the starting staff and do it well. He strikes me as fairly smart from what I've seen and heard. Sending him back to AAA to get more AB's doesn't serve the club's needs well at all, nor do I think Mesoraco's. He won't be the first up and coming player to ease into the full time gig.

Personally it blows my mind the amount of fretting we're doing around here. I guess that's the purpose of a discussion board, but we seem like a very unhappy lot at times.

Heavens! The sun shining brightly and we're playing a ballgame tonight on a perfect evening. What could be grander?

jojo
06-22-2012, 01:28 PM
Mes is on the 25 man roster for a reason. The Reds aren't worried about his bat. He's learning other stuff about being a major league catcher.

redsmetz
06-22-2012, 01:28 PM
I could understand more of the outcry if Hanigan were putting up Heisey-esque numbers, but it is rather hard to justify benching a guy with the hitting and defensive abilities of Hanigan.

I will say though that I agree with Doug about Mez's BAPIP. Offhand I can recall many well hit balls by Mez that for one reason or another didn't lead to a base hit. He's definitely played better than his line may indicate.

Just for my own clarification, so while added playing time might help Mez getting over that hump with bad luck, which I assume a low BAPIP may indicate, doesn't it also mean that his numbers may well go up even with the same amount of playing time when those hard hit balls etc start getting through or falling in? Or have I oversimplified this?

dougdirt
06-22-2012, 02:51 PM
Stupid Reds!!

Stupid In first place Reds not doing what I think they should do!!

Really??

Yes, really. Simply being in first place doesn't make every move they do the right one. We have nearly half way through the season and one of our catchers, who is supposed to be the future at the position, has yet to catch the ace of our staff or our #3 pitcher, while also only having caught our "#2" what, 4 times?

That doesn't seem smart to me.

I don't agree with their split of the time, but even so, I would much rather see them split the 60/40 they are handing out in a better way to get Mesoraco some sort of back to back games here and there. That isn't going to happen though if he isn't allowed to catch 3 guys on the staff though.

dougdirt
06-22-2012, 02:52 PM
Mes is on the 25 man roster for a reason. The Reds aren't worried about his bat. He's learning other stuff about being a major league catcher.

Like how to watch other people catch the #1,2 and 3 pitchers on the staff?

REDREAD
06-22-2012, 03:00 PM
A .200 BABIP is probably the reason he is 'struggling'. He is hitting for power, walking and making a lot of contact.

I don't know if the back to back day thing means anything, but I can't imagine that it would help him. Don't you think it would help anyone, much less a 23 year old rookie to get some consecutive at bats at some point in the season? Or even catch the entire staff at some point? We are in the last week of June and the #1 catching prospect in the game has been in the Majors the entire season and hasn't caught two of the teams starters. That is flat out stupid. The Reds aren't planning on Ryan Hanigan for their future. They are planning on Devin Mesoraco as their future (if they weren't, they would have traded him instead of Grandal). But here we are, nearly half way through the season and he still hasn't caught a single game for 40% of our rotation. It is dumb.



Doug, I think a good argument could be made that the Reds don't want to overwhelm Mesarco.. He hasn't earned any more playing time than he's gotten so far. Hannigan is playing well, why should he lose his job?

As far as getting familiar with the starters, Mes is watching all the starters every day. He will pick it up. I'm pretty sure that if Hannigan got hurt, he'd be able to handle it (that's part of your argument, isn't it? that he should be playing more)

If the playoffs started today, Homer is in the top 3.. Latos is probably out of the playoff rotation. Maybe that changes by the end of the season.
Honestly, if Mes doesn't hit any better than he is now, I want Hannigan catching all the playoff games.

We all want to see Mes and Chapman develop to their fullest potential, but the Reds are hardly being incompetent. In the grand scheme of things.. let's say Mes caught 40 additional games this year (that's about the split you are proposing).. Is that really going to make THAT much of a difference in his development schedule? 40 more games over a season?

Chapman is the most valuable pitcher in the pen now. He's clearly been more valuable than Leake and Latos (not sure many people would argue that).
It's debatable if he's been more valuable than Arryo and Homer..
But the point is.. Chapman has been between the 2nd and 4th most valuable pitcher on the staff.. I don't see how that's butchering his development.

This is the year to go for it Doug. If that means Chapman in the pen and Mes only playing 40% in order to win the division, I gladly make that sacrifice.

dougdirt
06-22-2012, 03:04 PM
Doug, I think a good argument could be made that the Reds don't want to overwhelm Mesarco.. He hasn't earned any more playing time than he's gotten so far. Hannigan is playing well, why should he lose his job?
Hanigan doesn't have to lose his job. Let him play his 60%. Just let Mesoraco play two games in a row more than twice in three months. It isn't hard, well, unless Mesoraco isn't allowed to catch everyone on the staff.

westofyou
06-22-2012, 03:09 PM
Yes, really. Simply being in first place doesn't make every move they do the right one. We have nearly half way through the season and one of our catchers, who is supposed to be the future at the position, has yet to catch the ace of our staff or our #3 pitcher, while also only having caught our "#2" what, 4 times?

That doesn't seem smart to me.

I don't agree with their split of the time, but even so, I would much rather see them split the 60/40 they are handing out in a better way to get Mesoraco some sort of back to back games here and there. That isn't going to happen though if he isn't allowed to catch 3 guys on the staff though.

Not every move they do will be the right one, nor is every suggestion created in the vacuum of this chat board the correct answer either

But know this, development is for losing teams or the minor leagues... Those games you earlier mentioned that the Reds are do concerned with winning over developing young players are big league games, not ML games, not ST games, not playing out the string in September games. But games that keep the Reds near the top of the standings, that's the bottom line, that's why most of us are here.

If I want development at the sake of Ws I'll follow Fall League baseball

REDREAD
06-22-2012, 03:12 PM
Hanigan doesn't have to lose his job. Let him play his 60%. Just let Mesoraco play two games in a row more than twice in three months. It isn't hard, well, unless Mesoraco isn't allowed to catch everyone on the staff.

Not sure what the big deal is?

I think the rotation is now (based on the last 5 games):

Homer
Cueto
Latos
Leake
Bronson

Does it really matter if Mes has a day off when Bronson starts.
Seems like both catchers would stay fresher the way Dusty is doing it.
If Mes had 2 days catching, then 3 days off.. wouldn't that also make him rusty?

Plenty of rookies have been able to adjust to ML pitching without all the special accomodations that you want for Mes. I have faith that Mes will adjust, but I just don't see why the key is starting in back to back days..then having 3 days off..

dougdirt
06-22-2012, 03:20 PM
Does it really matter if Mes has a day off when Bronson starts.
Seems like both catchers would stay fresher the way Dusty is doing it.
If Mes had 2 days catching, then 3 days off.. wouldn't that also make him rusty?


Who says Mes has to sit 3 days if he catches two in a row? The only way that has to happen is if he isn't allowed to catch certain guys. If they both can catch everyone, then he won't have to sit three in a row. M, M, H, H, M, H, H, M, H, M, H, H, M, H, H, M, M, H, H, M, H, H, M, H, M, H, H and so on and so forth. It doesn't have to loop in some special pattern.

jojo
06-22-2012, 04:03 PM
Like how to watch other people catch the #1,2 and 3 pitchers on the staff?

You do realize that there is more going on in the day than just the game, and there is more going on in the game than just catching a ball or swining a bat? :p

_Sir_Charles_
06-22-2012, 04:13 PM
Personally it blows my mind the amount of fretting we're doing around here. I guess that's the purpose of a discussion board, but we seem like a very unhappy lot at times.

Heavens! The sun shining brightly and we're playing a ballgame tonight on a perfect evening. What could be grander?

This. This. So very, very much THIS!

It's almost as if we, as a fan-base, have gotten so used to struggling that it's like a warm blanket on a cold winters' night. We need to complain, we need to gripe just to feel complete and whole. I'd certainly HOPE that's not the case...but it certainly feels like it is. As I said in the other thread...just sit back and enjoy the ride fellas. :beerme:

defender
06-22-2012, 04:20 PM
Having a regular schedule is a sign of respect. It is the way Baker treats his players and is probably better in the short run and for Mes long term.

Vottomatic
06-22-2012, 04:25 PM
Frankly, I'm not that comfortable with the job Mez is doing behind the plate. Someone pointed out that Chapman's troubles began with Mez behind the plate.......that he was calling things differently and setting up different than Hanigan. And the pitcher's e.r.a. with Hanigan behind the plate is more than likely far better than when Mez is back there. Hanigan was even better than Ramon behind the plate.

I'd be fine sending down Mez so he could play every day, and bringing up Navarro to play sparingly and PH.

I(heart)Freel
06-22-2012, 06:21 PM
Super 2 applies to guys called up in May/June not these guys. (yet)

I think super two applies to number of days in the bigs. If they're among the top 17 percent of players with more than 2 seasons and less then 3 seasons, then they qualify for super two. Doesn't matter when that is. So I think it does apply to Mes. Were he sent down for a couple months, he would be on pace for about the same amount of major league service time as those called up around now.

Again, not advocating for that. Just saying it's a nice by-product were that the org decision.

dougdirt
06-22-2012, 07:15 PM
Frankly, I'm not that comfortable with the job Mez is doing behind the plate. Someone pointed out that Chapman's troubles began with Mez behind the plate.......that he was calling things differently and setting up different than Hanigan. And the pitcher's e.r.a. with Hanigan behind the plate is more than likely far better than when Mez is back there. Hanigan was even better than Ramon behind the plate.

I'd be fine sending down Mez so he could play every day, and bringing up Navarro to play sparingly and PH.
You have to be kidding me. Mesoraco caught Chapman all year and not a single person talked about it until 8 weeks into the season when Chapman started getting lit up like a freaking Christmas Tree. Then all of a sudden it is how Mesoraco is setting up that messed Chapman up? Unicorns are also real.

And pitchers ERA when the two guys are catching different pitchers is just stupid to even bring up.

dougdirt
06-22-2012, 07:17 PM
You do realize that there is more going on in the day than just the game, and there is more going on in the game than just catching a ball or swining a bat? :p

Sure. If he isn't ready for those things, he should be in Louisville. Period. But they don't think that he isn't ready.

kaldaniels
06-22-2012, 07:22 PM
I think super two applies to number of days in the bigs. If they're among the top 17 percent of players with more than 2 seasons and less then 3 seasons, then they qualify for super two. Doesn't matter when that is. So I think it does apply to Mes. Were he sent down for a couple months, he would be on pace for about the same amount of major league service time as those called up around now.

Again, not advocating for that. Just saying it's a nice by-product were that the org decision.

It does apply to days. But as you stated "at this point they are super 2s" is not correct.

Mario-Rijo
06-22-2012, 07:23 PM
You have to be kidding me. Mesoraco caught Chapman all year and not a single person talked about it until 8 weeks into the season when Chapman started getting lit up like a freaking Christmas Tree. Then all of a sudden it is how Mesoraco is setting up that messed Chapman up? Unicorns are also real.

And pitchers ERA when the two guys are catching different pitchers is just stupid to even bring up.

Although I agree with your 1st point your 2nd point is off the mark isn't it, they both catch Aroldis which was his point...

dougdirt
06-22-2012, 07:25 PM
Although I agree with your 1st point your 2nd point is off the mark isn't it, they both catch Aroldis which was his point...

Wait, what was his point about Aroldis?

*BaseClogger*
06-22-2012, 07:44 PM
As I recall, Navarro is a mediocre defensive backstop. How does his defense compare to Mesoraco?

Kc61
06-23-2012, 12:16 AM
Just read through this thread, which I started last night, and there are obviously several views on how to handle Devin.

The one view I have trouble with is the view that the status quo should be maintained. I just don't think this is working.

Devin's hitting has really suffered. He's at .191, with a .294 OBP, and a .351 SLG. He fanned tonight in a key situation that really hurt the team's chances. This can't help his confidence as a hitter.

Something needs to change with this player. Using him sporadically in the major leagues isn't working. The guy hits eighth, maybe three times a week, and his lack of reps as a hitter is showing up in his performance.

And I disagree with those who thinks his offense is irrelevant. This player's status as a good prospect is largely based on offense.

Something needs to change IMO.

lollipopcurve
06-23-2012, 08:28 AM
He fanned tonight in a key situation that really hurt the team's chances.

Let's be fair here. He battled well in that AB and was called out on a pitch that was clearly off the plate.

I agree that the status quo is not working. But what does not help his confidence, IMO, is Baker pulling him for a pinch hitter vs a hard throwing lefthander -- the kind of pitcher Mesoraco is well-suited to have success against.

Griffey012
06-23-2012, 10:30 AM
Maybe I am the only one, but I am just fine with the handling of Mez. Granted I would like for him to start back to back days, but as long as him and his pitchers are comfortable with each other, I am alright with the current situation. Too often we see stud catchers come to the bigs and flop. There is a huge list of them that turn into mediocre catchers, or just not good ones at all. And a small list that turn into studs right away.

My theory is that there is so much to learn about catching at the big league level that it becomes overwhelming and really hinders performance. Mez is getting an internship on catching at the big league level this season. So when his time comes to be the starting catcher 75-80% of the time, he has already learned the tricks of the trade, and can make a seamless transition.

kaldaniels
06-23-2012, 10:30 AM
If you think a guy is the next say, Brian McCann, then you play the guy. He's been up now for around 3-4 months total. Hate to see the cheap years wasted. If he bombs, we still have Hanigan. It's more risky to play him in a pennant race, but if you believe in him I say you have to.

kaldaniels
06-23-2012, 10:31 AM
Nm

kaldaniels
06-23-2012, 10:57 AM
If you think a guy is the next say, Brian McCann, then you play the guy. He's been up now for around 3-4 months total. Hate to see the cheap years wasted. If he bombs, we still have Hanigan. It's more risky to play him in a pennant race, but if you believe in him I say you have to.

Reds/Flyers Fan
06-23-2012, 02:51 PM
Let's be fair here. He battled well in that AB and was called out on a pitch that was clearly off the plate.

I agree that the status quo is not working. But what does not help his confidence, IMO, is Baker pulling him for a pinch hitter vs a hard throwing lefthander -- the kind of pitcher Mesoraco is well-suited to have success against.

The change of home plate umpires was brutal on the Reds. Homer gave up no walks before the switch and was a walk machine after. Then the poor strike calls on Mes in the 6th and Cozart in the 9th, among others.

Kc61
06-23-2012, 02:56 PM
The change of home plate umpires was brutal on the Reds. Homer gave up no walks before the switch and was a walk machine after. Then the poor strike calls on Mes in the 6th and Cozart in the 9th, among others.

The pitch to Mes was very close. In that spot, you can't look at that pitch for strike three.

To read this thread, it's like the pitch was a foot outside. Very close pitch, two strikes, bases loaded, trail by one, cannot stand there and look at the pitch.

Only one at bat, he's still a good prospect, but he shouldn't have taken that pitch.

RedlegJake
06-23-2012, 03:01 PM
As I recall, Navarro is a mediocre defensive backstop. How does his defense compare to Mesoraco?

Navarro isn't a mediocre defensive backstop - he was once very highly thought of - his attitude is - or was - mediocre and is largely considered the reason he didn't pan out. Maybe he's grown up a lot since then.

DGullett35
06-23-2012, 03:26 PM
I really like Mes and I think he will be damn good one day. But this is Hanigans position for 2012. I agree to let Mes play everyday down in Louisville.He needs to work more on his recieveing skills than his bat. If he gets hot bring him up. With the way Navarro has hit down there this year I wouldnt mind having that lefty bat on the bench. If anything until walt makes a move Navarro could be used as our LH pinch hitter aginst righties. Beats the heck out of sending Willie up to the plate.

lollipopcurve
06-23-2012, 05:33 PM
Only one at bat, he's still a good prospect, but he shouldn't have taken that pitch

Disagree 100%. Mesoraco has always had a good eye, and that was a good take. Nothing he could have done with that pitch. This idea that it's a sin to take a called 3rd strike -- apparently Baker subscribes to the notion -- is poor strategy, IMO. Guys with good eyes, you can't be telling them to be swinging at anything close. It takes an advantage they have -- the ability to distinguish borderline balls from balls on the corner -- and turns it into an advantage for the pitcher.

Kc61
06-23-2012, 05:57 PM
Disagree 100%. Mesoraco has always had a good eye, and that was a good take. Nothing he could have done with that pitch. This idea that it's a sin to take a called 3rd strike -- apparently Baker subscribes to the notion -- is poor strategy, IMO. Guys with good eyes, you can't be telling them to be swinging at anything close. It takes an advantage they have -- the ability to distinguish borderline balls from balls on the corner -- and turns it into an advantage for the pitcher.

I've always understood that in a key spot with a man on third and less than two outs you don't leave it to the umpire to decide your fate.

I could see if was a full count and Mes thought he had walked, but that was not the case.

Understand your argument, just disagree. Pitch was sufficiently close that Devin should have fouled it off or hit it or tried to.

RANDY IN INDY
06-24-2012, 12:12 PM
I've always understood that in a key spot with a man on third and less than two outs you don't leave it to the umpire to decide your fate.

:beerme:

dougdirt
06-24-2012, 01:02 PM
I've always understood that in a key spot with a man on third and less than two outs you don't leave it to the umpire to decide your fate.


Old school thinking too where average mattered and walks were viewed as a failure on part of the hitter.

I would rather a hitter not swing at a ball than attempt to expand the zone to try and make contact with a ball. Was it close? Yes, it was close. But it was a ball, even if the umpire called it a strike.

Kc61
06-24-2012, 01:07 PM
Old school thinking too where average mattered and walks were viewed as a failure on part of the hitter.

I would rather a hitter not swing at a ball than attempt to expand the zone to try and make contact with a ball. Was it close? Yes, it was close. But it was a ball, even if the umpire called it a strike.

Well, there is another rationale for swinging at a close pitch with man on third in key spot. It's not just about batting average and walk statistics.

Other rationale is that the umpire could call a close pitch strike three.

westofyou
06-24-2012, 01:10 PM
Old school thinking too where average mattered and walks were viewed as a failure on part of the hitter.

I would rather a hitter not swing at a ball than attempt to expand the zone to try and make contact with a ball. Was it close? Yes, it was close. But it was a ball, even if the umpire called it a strike.

You have to expand the zone in those situations, the fact that an umpire might see it different than the batter makes it pertinent that late in the game

Sure looking for you one pitch is the best approach but that late in the game means one should be prepared to adjust that approach, the batter can't let the umpire take his opportunity from him that late in the game, the W > Approach at that juncture, shoot for the W, work on the approach sure.... But at the expense of the W?

Let's hope not

dougdirt
06-24-2012, 01:50 PM
You have to expand the zone in those situations, the fact that an umpire might see it different than the batter makes it pertinent that late in the game

Sure looking for you one pitch is the best approach but that late in the game means one should be prepared to adjust that approach, the batter can't let the umpire take his opportunity from him that late in the game, the W > Approach at that juncture, shoot for the W, work on the approach sure.... But at the expense of the W?

Let's hope not

You can't win in the situation unless you get one of the three outcomes. You swing and miss at a ball because it is a pitch you shouldn't be swinging at, and people are asking why you struck out/swung at a bat pitch. You look at a ball that the umpire calls otherwise despite what it actually was and people are asking why you didn't swing. The only acceptable thing there is to make contact, but, well, that isn't as easy as it sounds. What if you do make contact, but because it is a ball, you pop it up weakly to first base? Now people are upset that you didn't get it on the ground or swung at a questionable pitch.

westofyou
06-24-2012, 01:57 PM
I tend to not get upset at a player for trying to win an at bat in that situation, of course I know the swing could result in an out

I also know that the variable to the situation added by the umpire is less predictable and produces less chances for success that late in the game, whereas an aggressive approach can reap more rewards than a passive one

lollipopcurve
06-24-2012, 03:42 PM
I also know that the variable to the situation added by the umpire is less predictable

What is the "miss" rate for umpires on balls and strikes? My guess is that it's less than 10%. Compare that to the chance Mesoraco had of not swinging and missing at a pitch that may have fooled him and that certainly was a good breaking ball just off the outside corner from a righthander. IMO, it was a good take. For those who believe in such a thing.

kaldaniels
06-24-2012, 04:58 PM
Regarding a pitch that was close like that, and pitch f/x....

Where would the "square" show up on the graph on a ball that nips the corner by a millimeter i.e. only 1 percent of the baseball hits the strikezone (but is a strike nonetheless).

Not that it applies in this situation, but if the square was the center of the ball, could a "square" outside the box completely still possibly be a strike? Also that is a 2-D graph, so how does it account for the 3-D strike zone.

Answer how you will.

Roy Tucker
06-24-2012, 11:15 PM
I guess I play guys who play the best more than guys who don't. Hanigan is both hitting and catching well. I feel that the Reds have a better shot at winning with him behind the plate. And winning games is the most important thing. Development of a rookie is something you work in as well as you can.