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Blitz Dorsey
06-22-2012, 07:04 PM
Someone's on fire (no "Blaze" pun intended):

http://www.milb.com/milb/stats/stats.jsp?pos=&sid=t423&t=p_pbp&pid=571466

:thumbup:

bellhead
06-22-2012, 07:43 PM
3 more years for Tuck then the majors, just as Hannigan gets expensive..

RedLegsToday
06-22-2012, 07:54 PM
a very Vottoesque last 10 games.

HokieRed
06-23-2012, 10:09 AM
3 more years for Tuck then the majors, just as Hannigan gets expensive..

Could be two, or a season and a half.

mdccclxix
06-14-2013, 11:18 AM
So thanks to bb-ref's new splits info I've been learning more about these prospects. Here is Barnhart's OPS vs RHP the last three years

2011: .527
2012: .438
2013: .522

Is it common to finally pull the plug on switch hitting? He's about an .800 ops bat vs RHP as a lefty hitter. Would he be materially worse vs. LHP as a LHB? Does seeing both sides of the plate help his game calling behind it? It's interesting because he's been considered one of the very top defensive catchers in the minors, he can really hit RHP, so when is his eta really? Can he be a faster riser?

mth123
06-14-2013, 09:13 PM
So thanks to bb-ref's new splits info I've been learning more about these prospects. Here is Barnhart's OPS vs RHP the last three years
2011: .527
2012: .438
2013: .522

Is it common to finally pull the plug on switch hitting? He's about an .800 ops bat vs RHP as a lefty hitter. Would he be materially worse vs. LHP as a LHB? Does seeing both sides of the plate help his game calling behind it? It's interesting because he's been considered one of the very top defensive catchers in the minors, he can really hit RHP, so when is his eta really? Can he be a faster riser?

I think you are saying that Barnhart struggles against LHP and hits against RHP. I think it's time to push Barnhart to AAA and have him ready to be the back-up catcher on opening day, 2014. Ryan Hanigan will be 33 in August, his deal is coming to an end, his offense continues to decline and the pitcher to whom he is most associated with as his personal catcher will likely be leaving town as a free agent.

Devin Mesoraco has taken a big step forward on offense and defense this year and hits LHP very well. The Reds offense needs the boost that he can provide and IMO it's time to shift the PT allocation to more of a 60-40 split (at least) in Mes' favor for the rest of 2013. Hanigan can be peddled after the season for something useful and Mesoraco can assume the role as starting catcher (with roughly 130 starts behind the plate) in 2014 if healthy. Barnhart, with his plus-plus defense and lefty bat, would be a natural as Mes' back-up.

IMO it would be the best way to pump-up the offense a bit while saving a little cash to be used towards other needs (like raises for Broxton and Ludwick). I'm a big Hanigan fan, but its time to shift the catching load and look to a future where it's less tandem and more a primary catcher with the former #1 pick and top prospect getting the PT.

Benihana
06-15-2013, 01:22 AM
I think you are saying that Barnhart struggles against LHP and hits against RHP. I think it's time to push Barnhart to AAA and have him ready to be the back-up catcher on opening day, 2014. Ryan Hanigan will be 33 in August, his deal is coming to an end, his offense continues to decline and the pitcher to whom he is most associated with as his personal catcher will likely be leaving town as a free agent.

Devin Mesoraco has taken a big step forward on offense and defense this year and hits LHP very well. The Reds offense needs the boost that he can provide and IMO it's time to shift the PT allocation to more of a 60-40 split (at least) in Mes' favor for the rest of 2013. Hanigan can be peddled after the season for something useful and Mesoraco can assume the role as starting catcher (with roughly 130 starts behind the plate) in 2014 if healthy. Barnhart, with his plus-plus defense and lefty bat, would be a natural as Mes' back-up.

IMO it would be the best way to pump-up the offense a bit while saving a little cash to be used towards other needs (like raises for Broxton and Ludwick). I'm a big Hanigan fan, but its time to shift the catching load and look to a future where it's less tandem and more a primary catcher with the former #1 pick and top prospect getting the PT.

Agree with this. Hanigan is well liked by other teams and could definitely fetch value in the trade market, especially from a team like the Rays. I'd love to see if Walt could coax a SS prospect like Hak Ju Lee or at least Tim Beckham for Hanigan. Maybe the Reds also look to buy low on OF prospect Josh Sale.

Either way Mez should get the bulk of starts in 2014 and Barnhart should be a capable backup.

Steve4192
06-15-2013, 08:58 AM
I think you are saying that Barnhart struggles against LHP and hits against RHP. I think it's time to push Barnhart to AAA and have him ready to be the back-up catcher on opening day, 2014.

I don't think there is any need to rush him. He's holding his own at AA, not scorching it. Let the kid develop on his own timeline.


Ryan Hanigan will be 33 in August, his deal is coming to an end, his offense continues to decline and the pitcher to whom he is most associated with as his personal catcher will likely be leaving town as a free agent.

Hanigan is having a lousy season thus far, but I don't see how that can be interpreted as a continuation of anything. His OPS in 2011 and 2012 was right on his career norms. 2013 is obviously way below those norms, but it's only 126 plate appearances and he has missed significant time due to injury. Even if he sucks the rest of the year, bad seasons happen. I see nothing to indicate he cannot return to form in 2014, if not earlier.

I'm all for giving Mesoraco more playing time, but I would rather not have him working without a net. Let Hanigan be his safety net while Devin settles in as a starter over the next couple of seasons, and let Barnhart develop at his own pace.

mth123
06-15-2013, 10:06 AM
Agree with this. Hanigan is well liked by other teams and could definitely fetch value in the trade market, especially from a team like the Rays. I'd love to see if Walt could coax a SS prospect like Hak Ju Lee or at least Tim Beckham for Hanigan. Maybe the Reds also look to buy low on OF prospect Josh Sale.

Either way Mez should get the bulk of starts in 2014 and Barnhart should be a capable backup.

I don't think he could get anything all that valuable. If he could get a decent LOOGY (better than Manny Parra), a decent Utility IF who isn't a complete waste withe the bat (think Adam Rosales) or somebody's 10 to 15 prospect coupled with saving a couple million dollars and clearing the path for Mesoraco, I think it's time. He'll be 33/34 next season.

As for Hanigan's offense: (in Response to Steve who makes a lot of good points on a regular basis)

2010 .834 OPS
2011 .714 OPS
2012 .703 OPS
2013 .530 OPS

He'll be 33 in August and looking at his best seasons in the rearview mirror. If Barnhart isn't ready, low cost vets who can back-up catcher are around. Hanigan could play that role, but I think as long as he's here, Mes won't ever get full claim to the job. I'd move him and stash a low cost vet at AAA a la Dioner Navarro whie giving Barnhart first crack at the back-up job.

RedlegJake
06-15-2013, 10:24 AM
I agree with each of the last three posters. Let Tuck develop in AAA ...challenge thy hitters...his D is ready now. Then move Hanigan in the winter if TB handles AAA reasonably well. Sign a Navarro type as emergency AAA catcher - something they usually do anyway. Let Mes have the lions part of a 60/40 split next season. Hanny's numbers are trending down in a way that combined with age gives me little hope he'll have a bounceback offensively. I agree that he has trade value just not big value. But a worthwhile AA prospect or a decent reliever or decent utility player? Yeah, I think he definitely has that much just on his defensive game.

HokieRed
06-15-2013, 10:26 AM
I don't think he could get anything all that valuable. If he could get a decent LOOGY (better than Manny Parra), a decent Utility IF who isn't a complete waste withe the bat (think Adam Rosales) or somebody's 10 to 15 prospect coupled with saving a couple million dollars and clearing the path for Mesoraco, I think it's time. He'll be 33/34 next season.

As for Hanigan's offense: (in Response to Steve who makes a lot of good points on a regular basis)

2010 .834 OPS
2011 .714 OPS
2012 .703 OPS
2013 .530 OPS

He'll be 33 in August and looking at his best seasons in the rearview mirror. If Barnhart isn't ready, low cost vets who can back-up catcher are around. Hanigan could play that role, but I think as long as he's here, Mes won't ever get full claim to the job. I'd move him and stash a low cost vet at AAA a la Dioner Navarro whie giving Barnhart first crack at the back-up job.

I'm a big fan of Barnhart's and agree that FO thinking needs to start looking toward the future beyond Hanigan. Just one point about Hanigan's stats. He obviously was seriously hurting when the season opened; he couldn't open his left side at all at the plate. It was completely unsurprising the injury was left oblique. When he came back, he hit quite well for a stretch, now has fallen way off again in the last 10 games, making one wonder if again he's having a lot of pain. So the OPS drop needs to be treated with all that in mind. On the other hand, injury and speed of recovery from injury are all age-related matters, particularly for catchers. He's now, like the rest of us, an older version of himself and that needs to be taken into account.

Benihana
06-15-2013, 10:27 AM
I don't think he could get anything all that valuable. If he could get a decent LOOGY (better than Manny Parra), a decent Utility IF who isn't a complete waste withe the bat (think Adam Rosales) or somebody's 10 to 15 prospect coupled with saving a couple million dollars and clearing the path for Mesoraco, I think it's time. He'll be 33/34 next season.

As for Hanigan's offense: (in Response to Steve who makes a lot of good points on a regular basis)

2010 .834 OPS
2011 .714 OPS
2012 .703 OPS
2013 .530 OPS

He'll be 33 in August and looking at his best seasons in the rearview mirror. If Barnhart isn't ready, low cost vets who can back-up catcher are around. Hanigan could play that role, but I think as long as he's here, Mes won't ever get full claim to the job. I'd move him and stash a low cost vet at AAA a la Dioner Navarro whie giving Barnhart first crack at the back-up job.

Given their professed love for him, I really think Hanigan could fetch one of Lee r Beckham. Rays have Y.Escobar, Zobrist and K.Johnson in the middle infield, with both of these prospects at AAA (although Lee is currently injured). They clearly have good depth at the position and the Reds have very little. Meanwhile after this season Hanigan could be expendable and the Rays have had their sights on him specifically for a long time.

Tom Servo
06-15-2013, 11:41 AM
Hanigan's 2013 reminds me a lot of Jason LaRue's 2006. A lot of people insisted LaRue would return to form in 2007 but he hit .195 with a .595 OPS for the rest of his career.

I'd love for Hanigan to prove me wrong, but I think his best hitting days are behind him.

Steve4192
06-15-2013, 11:54 AM
As for Hanigan's offense: (in Response to Steve who makes a lot of good points on a regular basis)

2010 .834 OPS
2011 .714 OPS
2012 .703 OPS
2013 .530 OPS


C'mon son.

His 2010 season is an obvious outlier. Leaving off the rest of his career to try and mask that is lame. His 692 OPS in 2009, his major league career OPS of 712, and his minor league career OPS of 753 all make that very clear. Hanigan has been a 700ish OPS hitter ever since he arrived in the majors. His 2011 and 2012 seasons are right in line with that. You are basing your entire argument off of 126 plate appearances in 2013.





If Barnhart isn't ready, low cost vets who can back-up catcher are around. Hanigan could play that role, but I think as long as he's here, Mes won't ever get full claim to the job. I'd move him and stash a low cost vet at AAA a la Dioner Navarro

That is what I suspected. Your problem is not with Hanigan, it's with Dusty. How does getting rid of Hanigan solve that problem? Whose to say Dusty won't keep that low-cost vet and play him over Mesoraco? Then the Reds have downgraded at catcher for no good reason.


whie giving Barnhart first crack at the back-up job.

I thought the big problem Mesoraco-backers had with how Dusty is doling out playing time was that a young catcher needs repetitions if he is ever going to get better. How is sitting Barnhart on the MLB bench any better? At least Mesoraco got 450+ minor league games under his belt before getting buried on the MLB bench. Barnhart hasn't even been in 300 yet. Why are you in such a hurry to have him rot away caddying for Mesoraco?

Steve4192
06-15-2013, 11:59 AM
Hanigan's 2013 reminds me a lot of Jason LaRue's 2006. A lot of people insisted LaRue would return to form in 2007 but he hit .195 with a .595 OPS for the rest of his career.

The primary difference was that Larue's 2007 was his second consecutive year of injury and reduced productivity. The other difference was that Larue was completely useless if he wasn't producing with the bat, whereas Hanigan is a defense-first catcher whose bat is just icing on the cake.

mth123
06-15-2013, 05:37 PM
C'mon son.

His 2010 season is an obvious outlier. Leaving off the rest of his career to try and mask that is lame. His 692 OPS in 2009, his major league career OPS of 712, and his minor league career OPS of 753 all make that very clear. Hanigan has been a 700ish OPS hitter ever since he arrived in the majors. His 2011 and 2012 seasons are right in line with that. You are basing your entire argument off of 126 plate appearances in 2013.





That is what I suspected. Your problem is not with Hanigan, it's with Dusty. How does getting rid of Hanigan solve that problem? Whose to say Dusty won't keep that low-cost vet and play him over Mesoraco? Then the Reds have downgraded at catcher for no good reason.



I thought the big problem Mesoraco-backers had with how Dusty is doling out playing time was that a young catcher needs repetitions if he is ever going to get better. How is sitting Barnhart on the MLB bench any better? At least Mesoraco got 450+ minor league games under his belt before getting buried on the MLB bench. Barnhart hasn't even been in 300 yet. Why are you in such a hurry to have him rot away caddying for Mesoraco?

The number I'm most basing my Hanigan issues on is 8/16/80 which says he'll be 33 in August and arb eliible for one more season.

I think there is a big difference between Mesoraco and Tucker. Mes was a first round pick, top prospect and projects to be an All Star caliber player. That's growth that can be significantly stunted. Barnhart is a low level pick, a defensive specialist who projects as a defensive minded back-up. He's already a plus-plus defender. He's probably never going to be much of a hitter. He's not likely to be much more than he already is and at some point he's going to be sitting on a major league bench. Waiting another season or two isn't going to make him any more than the 30 to 40 start per year, defensive minded back-up that he could already be in 2014. Why wait if there isn't a pay-off? More time in the minors would not have ever made Bill Plummer a starter. Barnhart can have a nice career backing-up a solid starter. If they think he's got a chance to hit more than that, then I'm fine keeping him in AAA and bringing in a journeyman, but it's time for Mes to become the 5 days per week catcher.

It's not really a Dusty problem. Mesoraco has outgrown the need for a tandem partner (Hanigan) and needs more of a pure back-up behind him (Barnhart or some other defensive minded 30 start per season guy). Hanigan is going to command a $3 Million or so salary and he's aging. His rapport with some of the existing starting rotation along with his familiarity and salary are going to suggest more playing time than Mesoraco's partner should get. He's past the age where catchers maintain their ability. Want a safety net? Fine, but its time to cut the chord IMO. Trade them a year too soon and not a year too late. Let Hanigan go elsewhere where he can play 45% to 55% of the time, but he shouldn't be that here in 2014.

Steve4192
06-15-2013, 06:36 PM
Barnhart is a low level pick, a defensive specialist who projects as a defensive minded back-up. He's already a plus-plus defender. He's probably never going to be much of a hitter.


I think you are underselling Barnhart. I think he has the potential to be another Hanigan, one who reaches the majors much earlier and will therefore have a longer useful career. Catchers who are plus-plus defenders and can also post an above-average OBP are pretty damn rare. I think Barnhart can be a darn-good starter in the majors. Not a superstar, but a solidly above-average starter.


It's not really a Dusty problem. Mesoraco has outgrown the need for a tandem partner (Hanigan) and needs more of a pure back-up behind him

How do you figure that? Mesoraco only has 100 MLB games under his belt and is barely able to keep his head above water. I'm all for letting him play in hopes that he continues to improve, but it is VERY premature for a contending team to put all it's eggs in the Devin Mesoraco basket. Once he's got a couple hundred games of 700+ OPS under his belt, then maybe, but right now he's not even 40 games into his first season over the 700 mark.

Besides, even if Mesoraco is everything we hope he is, catcher is the one position where you always need a good backup. Catchers get dinged up more than any position on the field and are regularly in need of time off. Better to have a quality backup like Hanigan around rather than some dumpster-dive AAAA reject.

Edd Roush
07-01-2013, 03:17 PM
I saw on the transactions thread that Barnhart has gone on the DL. Anyone know for what injury and how long he will be on the DL?

Tucker has taken a step forward from his 2012 AA numbers with a .256/.332/.352 line in 249 AA PAs this year.

dougdirt
07-01-2013, 03:22 PM
I saw on the transactions thread that Barnhart has gone on the DL. Anyone know for what injury and how long he will be on the DL?

Tucker has taken a step forward from his 2012 AA numbers with a .256/.332/.352 line in 249 AA PAs this year.

Not sure of the injury, but he got absolutely obliterated at the plate last week, so it wouldn't surprise me if it were related to that.

George Anderson
07-01-2013, 03:27 PM
Not sure of the injury, but he got absolutely obliterated at the plate last week, so it wouldn't surprise me if it were related to that.

He did get 3 hits in his last 2 games FWIW.

JaxRed
07-01-2013, 03:28 PM
They swapped him out mid-game (pinch hitter) yesterday but there was nothing in the game that looked like it would cause an injury. I would not have been shocked if Lutz had gone on DL, he got hit by pitch yesterday and it sounded nasty

LoganBuck
07-01-2013, 04:29 PM
They swapped him out mid-game (pinch hitter) yesterday but there was nothing in the game that looked like it would cause an injury. I would not have been shocked if Lutz had gone on DL, he got hit by pitch yesterday and it sounded nasty

Lutz tweeted he was fine, but it did hurt.

redsof72
07-01-2013, 07:16 PM
Barnhart has a hamstring injury.