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View Full Version : who do you feel belongs in the Reds HOF?



icehole3
06-25-2012, 05:51 AM
I'd like to see the nasty boys get inducted and Paul O'Neill :)

these are the guys who are in

http://cincinnati.reds.mlb.com/cin/hof/hof/directory.jsp

icehole3
06-25-2012, 05:53 AM
I'm not a huge Dunn fan but I do think he should be im the Reds HOF when he's done :)

cumberlandreds
06-25-2012, 07:33 AM
I was thinking about this over the weekend and looked up that website to see who was in. The Nasty Boys are way over due. Randy Myers, especially should be in. He should be next. If they wanted to do all three at once that would be fine with me too.

oneupper
06-25-2012, 07:38 AM
The Nasty Boys would be good for 2015 - 25th anniversary of the 1990 championship.

cumberlandreds
06-25-2012, 07:43 AM
The Nasty Boys would be good for 2015 - 25th anniversary of the 1990 championship.

I think they only induct on even numbered years. So 2014 is the next induction. I'm going to have to try to make that one. I would really like to go to one of these and meet some of these guys.

redsmetz
06-25-2012, 08:04 AM
I thought I'd look back at some of the older eras of Reds history to see if there are any glaring omissions. I don't have much time at the moment, but the Reds HOF lets you sort the members by their debut year. I was struck by the leap from Ewell Blackwell to Joe Nuxhall. That's only a 4 year gap since Nuxy debuted at 15 years old in 1946. Nuxy is followed chronologically by Big Klu, who started in 1947.

Again, I haven't put a lot of time into this and I'd be interested to hear from those who are much better versed in the club's history than I am, but one name that surprised me was Elmer Riddle. I'm not certain he belongs, but he meets the criteria. He had two really good seasons (1941 & 1943) but his 1942 season was sandwiched between those. During that period, he went 47-26 with a 2.76 ERA. I have no idea what league average was during that period. Just glancing at his other stats viewed through today's lens, they don't look spectacular, but I don't know what the points of comparison are for that era either. In '41, he led the league in winning percentage, ERA (2.24) and ERA+ (160). In '43, he led in wins with 21. Obviously the 1942 thru 1944 seasons were the prime of the war years, so the competition was lessened.

As a Red, overall he was 52-34 with a 3.20 ERA over eight seasons, so outside of those three years, he was nothing to write home about.

I was also surprised when I was playing around with the sort features on the HOF site, only one pitcher from the 1919 club is in the Hall (Dolf Luque). That surprised me, but looking at that squad, really some of that year's pitchers had a career that year (Ruether and Salee), but one name that could be considered would be Hod Eller whose five seasons with all with the Reds with a 60-40 career.

I think in the end, neither should be there, but they were the only two names that surprised me given the sometimes low bar of the Reds hall.

Some of you other history specialists, what do you think?

_Sir_Charles_
06-25-2012, 08:11 AM
I'd have to say no to O'Neil. He really didn't accomplish much in a Reds uniform. He got good after he donned the pinstripes.

And the Nasty Boys....you've got to look at them individually. All three in? Not so sure. Their Reds tenure wasn't exactly lengthy.

And Dunn...he's a lock.

~edit~ I went back and looked. Meyers was here for 2 seasons. Charlton for 5 seasons. Dibble for 6 seasons. And O'Neil, 8 seasons (really 6 though) and only one of those seasons did he top .800 ops. I might go for Charlton & Dibble, but I'd pass on the other 2 for sure. Even Charlton & Dibble are boarderline IMO.

chicoruiz
06-25-2012, 08:21 AM
Parenthetically, which of the current Reds do you think will get in? Votto and Phillips, of course... Cueto and Bruce are on their way if they continue at their present level...Rolen and Arroyo are the tough calls in my book.

cumberlandreds
06-25-2012, 08:27 AM
Looking at the requirements for the Reds HOF, Randy Myers is out. He only spent two years in a Reds uniform and the minimum requirement is three.
Rob Dibble had 88 saves as a Red. He's uh....well a flaky personality but he was a really good reliever for a few seasons. He should be in.
Charlton was a reliever and starter. He had about 29 saves and won 27 games as a Red. He's more iffy for sure. But considering he was part of that threesome he should be in.
Also I wouldn't mind if they gave a waiver on that three year requirement to put Myers in. That trio was awfully good for that one season and made them a World Champion.

_Sir_Charles_
06-25-2012, 08:29 AM
Parenthetically, which of the current Reds do you think will get in? Votto and Phillips, of course... Cueto and Bruce are on their way if they continue at their present level...Rolen and Arroyo are the tough calls in my book.

I'd think all of the ones you named will probably make it in. Rolen I doubt though. Too short a stay. Bronson...I think he'll make it.

oneupper
06-25-2012, 08:30 AM
Rolen is a no. Not long enough as a RED.
Juan Castro, on the other hand...

cumberlandreds
06-25-2012, 08:48 AM
Rolen is a no. Not long enough as a RED.
Juan Castro, on the other hand...

If Juan Castro makes it then Darrel Chaney should too. ;)

redsmetz
06-25-2012, 08:56 AM
BTW, the Reds have been doing a very good job of drawing forward the Reds from the 1880's era. I think there are now five or six from those teams which were very good. I have asked the Reds when they're going to put the 1882 Championship season (our first league season, then in the American Association which is considered a major league).

For that matter, as an aside, I've asked them when they'll retire Edd Roush's "number" (he never had one) ala the Giants retiring the "numbers of Christy Mathewson and John McGraw.

http://www.cable-car-guy.com/images/blog/2010/mathewson_mcgraw_terry.jpg

redsmetz
06-25-2012, 08:56 AM
[duplicate post]

Dan
06-25-2012, 09:23 AM
How about Gus Bell?

Big Klu
06-25-2012, 09:27 AM
Rolen is a no. Not long enough as a RED.
Juan Castro, on the other hand...

Rolen's career as a Red isn't over yet.

_Sir_Charles_
06-25-2012, 09:46 AM
Harang is a lock too IMO.

redsmetz
06-25-2012, 09:56 AM
How about Gus Bell? Here's a summary of his years with the Reds, including thte 1961 NL Championship team:



Year G PA AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BA OBP SLG OPS OPS+
53-61 1235 5108 4667 634 1343 228 35 160 711 .288 .335 .454 .790 105


He is a surprising one. I wish the Reds HOF had the ability to look at some comparisons statistically. Just glancing at B-R.com, Bell outshines Jerry Lynch who is in the hall. Additionally, Gus Bell was a 4-time All Star with the Reds (yes, one year was the ballot stuffing year). I would think the senior Bell is a no-brainer.

redsmetz
06-25-2012, 10:10 AM
I would suggest Dave Parker should be given serious consideration. Only four seasons, but he put up some overall good numbers during those years, was a 2-time All Star and finished 2nd in the MVP voting in the 1985 season (and arguably had a better season than Willie McGee). And in that short four years, his 107 HR's with the club put him among the team leaders in that category.

In fact, just look at our ongoing Home Run leader post that comes up in games, every Reds player in the top 25 are in except Parker, Gus Bell (mentioned earlier) and Reggie Sanders (who probably also should be considered - his heartbreaking 1995 post-season notwithstanding). Casey & Driessen's induction filled out the list. Of course, Pete Rose is excepted since he's ineligible.

brad1176
06-25-2012, 10:22 AM
Danny Graves? All time Reds saves leader. How about John Franco? I think he's second on the saves list.

cumberlandreds
06-25-2012, 10:29 AM
He is a surprising one. I wish the Reds HOF had the ability to look at some comparisons statistically. Just glancing at B-R.com, Bell outshines Jerry Lynch who is in the hall. Additionally, Gus Bell was a 4-time All Star with the Reds (yes, one year was the ballot stuffing year). I would think the senior Bell is a no-brainer.

Bell is really surprising. He's got the numbers to be in and should be.
I forgot about Franco. He should be in too.

Big Klu
06-25-2012, 10:38 AM
I have heard some people complain about the bar being low, but I think the Reds and the fans want an inclusive HOF. The Reds HOF is like a fraternity, and they want as many ex-teammates as possible to enjoy the reunion. Longevity is also rewarded. I think O'Neill, Morris, Charlton, and Dibble will eventually get in, as will Parker and Franco. I also look for Ron Oester to get inducted at some point. I can't believe that Gus Bell isn't in already.

My guess is that Ken Griffey, Jr. is inducted in 2014.

HokieRed
06-25-2012, 10:55 AM
Gus Bell is in.

RedsBaron
06-25-2012, 12:04 PM
Gus Bell was inducted into the Reds Hall of Fame in 1964.

Big Klu
06-25-2012, 12:26 PM
Gus Bell was inducted into the Reds Hall of Fame in 1964.

I thought he had been. I was unable to open the website to check on my own, but I couldn't believe he wasn't already in.

Dan
06-25-2012, 01:07 PM
I thought he had been. I was unable to open the website to check on my own, but I couldn't believe he wasn't already in.

And I apparently can't read. :)

Nathan
06-25-2012, 01:21 PM
If you wanted to go old school, why not this guy:

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/n/nicolhu01.shtml

Granted, Stolen Bases were a different stat back in that day, but, that's an awful lot of them?

chicoruiz
06-25-2012, 01:27 PM
Curt Walker was a better ballplayer than several current Reds HOFers. He played in an era when the team wasn't very good and he's pretty much forgotten now..I guess I'd be OK with him being in or being left out.

I'd put Scott Sullivan on my short list of candidates.

REDREAD
06-25-2012, 02:17 PM
The bar is pretty low to get in (not that I am complaining or want it more exclusive).. So based on that:

Griffey Jr should be in.
Dibble should be in, because he was such an impact pitcher (even though it was a relatively short period).

I'd even consider Ted Power. Yes, he's a marginal candidate, but he was one of the better pitchers during the dry 80's, and has been with the organization a long time.

I like the idea of Dave Parker too, that someone else suggested.

I don't want Ron Oester in, he was just mediocre for a long period of time, but he will probably get elected. I think the player should at least have a couple seasons where he was exceptional, as opposed to making it a longevity award.


I think Votto has a pretty good chance of making it eventually, if he tries really hard :laugh:

I would put Phillips and Arroyo in after they retires as well.

cumberlandreds
06-25-2012, 02:26 PM
I see the current players getting in as Votto,Phillips and Arroyo. If those three don't play another game for the Reds they should be in.
Cueto and Bruce are very close. They wouldn't have to do much more to get in. Rolen could get in if he can close out 2012 big and lead the Reds into the playoffs.
As for Willie Harris chances, I wouldn't bet the mortgage on him. ;)

westofyou
06-25-2012, 02:43 PM
Birdie Tebbets, Larry MacPhail, Pat Moran, Bob Beschler

redsmetz
06-25-2012, 03:03 PM
Birdie Tebbets, Larry MacPhail, Pat Moran, Bob Beschler

Beschler is surprising as he see seemed to have held every record that Joe Morgan took over during his tenure with the Reds. I wondered, too, if any earlier managers had been left out. I agree about Moran but have never looked at Tebbets career as a manager to come down with an opinion. Looking now, I'd be curious to hear some amplification of your thoughts on the matter. McPhail should clearly be in.

westofyou
06-25-2012, 03:20 PM
Beschler is surprising as he see seemed to have held every record that Joe Morgan took over during his tenure with the Reds. I wondered, too, if any earlier managers had been left out. I agree about Moran but have never looked at Tebbets career as a manager to come down with an opinion. Looking now, I'd be curious to hear some amplification of your thoughts on the matter. McPhail should clearly be in.

Moran was a quality manager, his drinking might have been an issue, and his early death drops him out of many folks minds, but his pitching and defense approach taken from Matty made the Reds good for the first time and that should be noted.

As for Birdie, he also should get some credit for bringing the Reds out of a decade of stink, he also was a big celebrity in the game compared to other Reds at the time, appearing on the cover of Time in 1956

An argument could be made for Gabe Paul too

klw
06-26-2012, 04:08 PM
Pete Rose should be in this and any other Hall of Fame. They are museums and he was a great player. Include a plaque telling of his misdeeds if you want but stick him in the Hall.

Mainspark
06-26-2012, 04:16 PM
Dave Parker. Put together four strong seasons for the Reds, including what should have been an MVP season in 1985, and played a major role in returning the Reds to the status of contender after the horrific 82-83 seasons.

BearcatShane
06-26-2012, 04:17 PM
With fan voting this is a popularity contest. It might get to the point where if someone has a decent five year string and is good to the fans he's getting voted in. Brandon Phillips could call a press conference for 6:30 before the game tonight and announce his retirement and he would be voted in the Reds HOF the first year he was eligible.

fearofpopvol1
06-26-2012, 04:56 PM
Parenthetically, which of the current Reds do you think will get in? Votto and Phillips, of course... Cueto and Bruce are on their way if they continue at their present level...Rolen and Arroyo are the tough calls in my book.

I would say barring catastrophes, both Bruce and Cueto will be eventual, especially Cueto.

Bruce is already number 22 on the Reds all time home run list in his young career and only needs 5 more to crack the top 20. There's a good chance by years end he passes Reggie Sanders for the 19th spot.

If we're looking at WAR, Cueto has already been the 11th most valuable starting pitcher to the Reds all time, as crazy as that may sound. He's got a pretty awesome chance of finishing this season in 7th place all time WAR for Reds pitchers.

Also, to whoever said Harang is in, is correct. He's got to be a lock. Looking at WAR numbers, he was the 3rd best starter the Reds have ever had. Arroyo may have a shot too. He's top 10 WAR for pitchers as well.

Phillips will be a lock. I think Dunn should be there too. He is 4th all time on the Reds home run list and his WAR is almost identical to Driessen's during his time as a Red.

I don't know if it's glaring omission, but the closest thing I can see is pitcher Fred Norman. I'd put him in the Reds HOF for sure. 7th best WAR for Reds pitchers. His record was 82-60 with a 3.45 ERA as a Red. I would also give consideration to Curt Walker. He was awesome as a Red over a period of 6+ years.

alexad
06-26-2012, 08:11 PM
I think Duane Walker, Tracy Jones, Gary Redus and Frank Pastori should be in. Oh and Paul Householder.

RedlegJake
06-26-2012, 09:59 PM
A team HOF is different than the National Hall. A team hall is partly a fan favorite poll as well as how great a player actually was. Players get in a team Hall that wouldn't even come close if it was strictly based on playing careers. I see the importance of that and of players who serve a team for a decade or more who were fairly ordinary players but played regularly year in year out and became household names in that town and fixtures in their city. They were important to that organization for a long time. They became by extension of their long service part of the face of that franchise during that period of time, especially in their later years there. Make fun of that if you want but I find team Hall of Fames much more fascinating and interesting than the National Hall for the very reason that you find more players who were the heart and soul of the clubs but not always the greatest players - often they were the greatest characters though. The Reds Hall is full of my favorites and I love it - and I love the selection process and the players they enshrine. I like the selectivity they employ - or as some say - the lack of it. West of You list of Moran, Tebbetts, Bescher and MacPhail is a good one and I'd add Gabe Paul and Dave Parker.
Of current players of course, Votto, then Cueto, Arroyo, Harang, Dunn, a good chance for Marshall, certainly Phillips, a chance for Cozart, Bruce, possibly Hanigan if he plays most of his career here, even ending as a backup to Mesaraco, Mesaraco, Possibly Latos if Mat pitches a lot of games like the other day. There are a lot of current possibilities because the Reds are on the cusp of another great era if all breaks right. A loaded farm system is close to fruition again if this a decent percentage of this years crop of draftees and the low level talent already here make a step forward. That will reload the system from top to mid to lower levels with lots of solid prospects from A to C grades at every level. Most of the big league talent is young and controlled for a few years yet including their top two hitting talents. Team HoF possibilities are all over the place - you can get carried away looking at these youngsters and seeing the possibilities everywhere. It's exciting to be a Reds fan right now.

HokieRed
06-27-2012, 09:06 AM
How about Reggie Sanders? 8 yrs, .271/.353/.476/.829, OPS+118. 125 HR, 431 RBI, 158 SB.

Chip R
06-27-2012, 09:47 AM
With fan voting this is a popularity contest. It might get to the point where if someone has a decent five year string and is good to the fans he's getting voted in. Brandon Phillips could call a press conference for 6:30 before the game tonight and announce his retirement and he would be voted in the Reds HOF the first year he was eligible.

That's true. For better or for worse, since we are leaving it up to the fans and media, it's going to be a popularity contest. And there's nothing wrong with that. It's what the fans want and people say all the time that teams should do what the fans want them to do.


Dave Parker. Put together four strong seasons for the Reds, including what should have been an MVP season in 1985, and played a major role in returning the Reds to the status of contender after the horrific 82-83 seasons.

Totally agree.

Chip R
06-27-2012, 09:47 AM
With fan voting this is a popularity contest. It might get to the point where if someone has a decent five year string and is good to the fans he's getting voted in. Brandon Phillips could call a press conference for 6:30 before the game tonight and announce his retirement and he would be voted in the Reds HOF the first year he was eligible.

That's true. For better or for worse, since we are leaving it up to the fans and media, it's going to be a popularity contest. And there's nothing wrong with that. It's what the fans want and people say all the time that teams should do what the fans want them to do.


Dave Parker. Put together four strong seasons for the Reds, including what should have been an MVP season in 1985, and played a major role in returning the Reds to the status of contender after the horrific 82-83 seasons.

Totally agree.

Big Klu
06-27-2012, 11:07 AM
How about Reggie Sanders? 8 yrs, .271/.353/.476/.829, OPS+118. 125 HR, 431 RBI, 158 SB.

He's flying under the radar right now with some bigger names getting more attention, but I think Reggie has an excellent chance down the road. A deserving player, too.

westofyou
06-27-2012, 11:51 AM
He's flying under the radar right now with some bigger names getting more attention, but I think Reggie has an excellent chance down the road. A deserving player, too.

Lavern will always be cited for the bad series against the Bravos and not turning into Eric Davis... a fan vote now makes it hard for him because he's viewed slightly as a disappointment.

All I have to say is... Wayne Granger, Jerry Lynch and Harry Craft

Big Klu
06-27-2012, 12:00 PM
Lavern will always be cited for the bad series against the Bravos and not turning into Eric Davis... a fan vote now makes it hard for him because he's viewed slightly as a disappointment.

All I have to say is... Wayne Granger, Jerry Lynch and Harry Craft

That is the biggest knock against him in the public perspective, and that's not his fault. But Reggie most likely will have to be a Committee selection, like Driessen was this year.

RedsBaron
06-27-2012, 12:17 PM
All I have to say is... Wayne Granger, Jerry Lynch and Harry Craft

Exactly.
Debates about what the standards should be for induction into the Hall of Fame, be it the one in Cooperstown or the Reds Hall of Fame, can be fun, but the Baseball Hall of Fame has been around for three-quarters of a century and the Reds Hall of Fame has been around for about a half century; at some point I start going by what the standards are, not what they should be. A long voting history establishes quasi-standards.
By those historical standards Reggie Sanders, Dave Parker, John Franco, Larry MacPhail, Bob Beschler are all easy picks for me.
Among active Reds Joey Votto is easy. Bronson Arroyo will go in. Brandon Phillips is an easy pick (Tommy Helms is in, and he wasn't near the all around second baseman Phillips is). Jay Bruce is building a resume and already probably has about as good a case as did Gordy Coleman (different position but both were lefthanded power hitters).