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mdccclxix
06-26-2012, 11:25 AM
He's managing to stay in front. Right now his tone is urgent and results minded. I think he could be pressing right at the right time, asking his team to fight hard through this key stretch. He's got a team full of players in their prime, driving them hard is the right thing to do heading into the ASG. Take the Milwaukee series and bring the fight to the west coast. We'll see what happens, but I like what I'm hearing from Dusty. Go Reds. :beerme:

top6
06-26-2012, 11:28 AM
Managing to stay in front, yet keeps putting some of the worst offensive players in baseball in the 1 and 2 holes. Whatever.

Bumstead
06-26-2012, 11:30 AM
Managing to stay in front, yet keeps putting some of the worst offensive players in baseball in the 1 and 2 holes. Whatever.

hehe...he's miserable. He's managed a team that should have a 5-7 game division lead into a tight battle for 1st. WTG Dusty! Talk never wins ballgames.

Bum

mdccclxix
06-26-2012, 11:34 AM
Managing to stay in front, yet keeps putting some of the worst offensive players in baseball in the 1 and 2 holes. Whatever.

Overstate much?

Vottomatic
06-26-2012, 11:35 AM
Dusty's really "dealin'" this team toward a tie for first place.

It's not that Dusty is a bad manager. He's okay to good. But a really good manager probably has this team 5 to 8 games up.

Bumstead
06-26-2012, 11:36 AM
Overstate much?

Should we not mention the obvious? Just ignore facts? Maybe they aren't the worst hitters in baseball but they certainly shouldn't bat at the top of the order. Of course, Dusty is just happy they aren't "clogging the bases." :laugh:

mdccclxix
06-26-2012, 11:38 AM
hehe...he's miserable. He's managed a team that should have a 5-7 game division lead into a tight battle for 1st. WTG Dusty! Talk never wins ballgames.

Bum

You are missing the point, talk sets the tone, I like what he's doing with that aspect of his job. And nothing wrong with having your best 3 players hit 3-4-5. Some people act like it's a high crime of treason.

mdccclxix
06-26-2012, 11:40 AM
Should we not mention the obvious? Just ignore facts? Maybe they aren't the worst hitters in baseball but they certainly shouldn't bat at the top of the order. Of course, Dusty is just happy they aren't "clogging the bases." :laugh:

He didn't state any facts and I pointed that out, it sort of changes things. How old is that "clogging the bases" thing anyway? 2003? That's a tired insult.

Bumstead
06-26-2012, 11:45 AM
He didn't state any facts and I pointed that out, it sort of changes things. How old is that "clogging the bases" thing anyway? 2003? That's a tired insult.

It's consistent with his "theory" on hitting and consistent with the fact that we only have a couple or 3 players with reasonable patience at the plate. "Just swing fellas!" It's not "tired" when it fits the bill.

All his talk doesn't win games or set any tone. His job is to motivate these players to produce. They are under-performing for about a year and a half now. Sorry, I see no reason to be happy about that. Of course it was predictable when Dusty was hired but you don't want to hear that now do you?

Bum

mdccclxix
06-26-2012, 11:47 AM
Dusty's really "dealin'" this team toward a tie for first place.

It's not that Dusty is a bad manager. He's okay to good. But a really good manager probably has this team 5 to 8 games up.

I guess that makes Mike Matheny in St. Louis the worst manager of all time.

The players play the game. Until a month ago, no one was a good option for cleanup, so BP (who's been there done that) was solidified there and Ludwick/Frazier really aren't overly ideal anyway. So aside from Bruce, who's been streaky again this year, there really aren't any beefs with the lineup that make overwhelming sense. Certainly not deserving of the vitriol some people cling to.

This team has Votto and Phillips, then about 10 streaky players that Dusty has to work with. Give the guy some credit, this is not the BRM.

Oh yeah, and the pitching staff is supremely healthy under his watch.

mdccclxix
06-26-2012, 11:51 AM
It's consistent with his "theory" on hitting and consistent with the fact that we only have a couple or 3 players with reasonable patience at the plate. "Just swing fellas!" It's not "tired" when it fits the bill.

All his talk doesn't win games or set any tone. His job is to motivate these players to produce. They are under-performing for about a year and a half now. Sorry, I see no reason to be happy about that. Of course it was predictable when Dusty was hired but you don't want to hear that now do you?

Bum

So should he motivate with sign language? I don't get it? :laugh:

What does motivation without a tone sound like? Will Ferrell's monotone character?

Does first place, 3rd in the NL, even with pythag, all sound like a gross underachievement to you?

Did you predict Dusty would win division title when he was hired? I bet you didn't!

How many believed he would ruin the young core coming up in 2008? So funny...

Bumstead
06-26-2012, 11:53 AM
I guess that makes Mike Matheny in St. Louis the worst manager of all time.

The players play the game. Until a month ago, no one was a good option for cleanup, so BP (who's been there done that) was solidified there and Ludwick/Frazier really aren't overly ideal anyway. So aside from Bruce, who's been streaky again this year, there really aren't any beefs with the lineup that make overwhelming sense. Certainly not deserving of the vitriol some people cling to.

This team has Votto and Phillips, then about 10 streaky players that Dusty has to work with. Give the guy some credit, this is not the BRM.

Oh yeah, and the pitching staff is supremely healthy under his watch.

I don't recall mentioning the pitching staff? Is this the chubs forum?

I love the Dusty apologists because it doesn't matter how bad he is, they have all the excuses for him lined up. Bruce is a lot better hitter than BP and should be batting 4th without question and BP should be moved to 1st or 2nd as he is clearly the best option there. Carry on with creating excuses for Dusty. I just hope Jockety can convince Castellini not to extend Dusty any further so that the Reds can find a manager that fits the dynamics of this team. Players may like him, but they certainly aren't stepping up for him the last year and a half. Keep the excuses coming.

Bum

Bumstead
06-26-2012, 11:54 AM
So should he motivate with sign language? I don't get it? :laugh:

What does motivation without a tone sound like? Will Ferrell's monotone character?

Does first place, 3rd in the NL, even with pythag, all sound like a gross underachievement to you?

Did you predict Dusty would win division title when he was hired? I bet you didn't!

How many believed he would ruin the young core coming up in 2008? So funny...

I read all of that and didn't really notice anything funny. Carry on. For the record I believe I predicted 88 or 90 wins in Dusty's first year. Anything else?

Bum

mdccclxix
06-26-2012, 11:55 AM
And there's nothing wrong with being aggressive at the plate, the offense is in the top 1/3 of the NL and rising. Maybe you can ask Walt to bring in some high OBP players, otherwise Dusty is bringing the players the Reds draft and develop along really, really well in the major leagues. I put it on Walt for not signing DeJesus, Willingham, or Beltran last year when it made imminent sense to do so.

MikeThierry
06-26-2012, 11:55 AM
mdccclxix, I don't think the Mike Matheny comment is a good example because Matheny has had to deal with an injured team the majority of the year. It's kind of a different situation.


Anyway, back to the original topic. I have never been a fan of Dusty Baker and I've never felt he outmanaged TLR all those years. That said, I kind of have to stick up for him here. What else is he supposed to do? The Reds essentially have 1 elite hitter in the lineup, 1 good hitter (Phillips), one power bat that is inconsistent (Bruce), and the rest of the lineup is inconsistent. Dusty doesn't aquire the players he uses. I think the way he's using the lineup is about as good as you're going to get given the current situation with Reds players. Blame Baker for things he's truely responsible for screwing up, not things that are out of his control.

Reds/Flyers Fan
06-26-2012, 11:56 AM
I blame Walt more than I blame Dusty, who is only using the players he's given.

mattfeet
06-26-2012, 11:59 AM
I blame Walt more than I blame Dusty, who is only using the players he's given.

Yea, Walt's done nothing at all to try and put a good product on the field. :dunno:

mdccclxix
06-26-2012, 11:59 AM
I read all of that and didn't really notice anything funny. Carry on. For the record I believe I predicted 88 or 90 wins in Dusty's first year. Anything else?

Bum

So did Dusty let you down, or that horrible 2008 defense and pitching staff? The fact is Dusty's critics have less and less to criticize him for and love living on whatever the Cubs fans decided was the verdict on his managing style.

mdccclxix
06-26-2012, 12:05 PM
mdccclxix, I don't think the Mike Matheny comment is a good example because Matheny has had to deal with an injured team the majority of the year. It's kind of a different situation.


Anyway, back to the original topic. I have never been a fan of Dusty Baker and I've never felt he outmanaged TLR all those years. That said, I kind of have to stick up for him here. What else is he supposed to do? The Reds essentially have 1 elite hitter in the lineup, 1 good hitter (Phillips), one power bat that is inconsistent (Bruce), and the rest of the lineup is inconsistent. Dusty doesn't aquire the players he uses. I think the way he's using the lineup is about as good as you're going to get given the current situation with Reds players. Blame Baker for things he's truely responsible for screwing up, not things that are out of his control.


I think Matheney probably is doing a good job, getting a lot out of his players, for sure. They have had some bad luck in 1 run games.

mdccclxix
06-26-2012, 12:08 PM
Yea, Walt's done nothing at all to try and put a good product on the field. :dunno:

Exactly, and what many people are upset about with Dusty is one small area, the batting order. It's getting harder and harder to hate on him as the Reds contend, but there is the issue of Walt not settling LF/cleanup very well last season. We'll see if Heisey and Ludwick can really catch fire, though...

Bumstead
06-26-2012, 12:09 PM
So did Dusty let you down, or that horrible 2008 defense and pitching staff? The fact is Dusty's critics have less and less to criticize him for and love living on whatever the Cubs fans decided was the verdict on his managing style.

OH I don't know about that. Who cares what chubbies fans think anyway? How about the year and half of underachievement? How about that? His job is to motivate these players to play better than and at worst meet expectations based on their talent levels. He has not done that at all. That's the rub. Sure, one can criticize his inability to construct a lineup, his overuse of certain bullpen arms (not necessarily to the point of injury, just the point of exhaustion :eek:, not to mention the staleness of the other relievers), his non-interest in the importance of players getting on base and so on. But really it comes down to this team's underachievement that makes him a poor manager for this (and probably most any other team in MLB, although I wish the Cardinals would hire him) team. Keep the excuses and condescension coming as it keeps me entertained.

Bum

Bumstead
06-26-2012, 12:11 PM
Exactly, and what many people are upset about with Dusty is one small area, the batting order. It's getting harder and harder to hate on him as the Reds contend, but there is the issue of Walt not settling LF/cleanup very well last season. We'll see if Heisey and Ludwick can really catch fire, though...

I see you missed the sarcasm in his post...

reds44
06-26-2012, 12:16 PM
Dusty is playing Ludwick/Rolen over Frazier and batting Cozart/Stubbs at the top of the lineup instead of Hanigan. He's still a bad manager.

mdccclxix
06-26-2012, 12:19 PM
OH I don't know about that. Who cares what chubbies fans think anyway? How about the year and half of underachievement? How about that? His job is to motivate these players to play better than and at worst meet expectations based on their talent levels. He has not done that at all. That's the rub. Sure, one can criticize his inability to construct a lineup, his overuse of certain bullpen arms (not necessarily to the point of injury, just the point of exhaustion :eek:, not to mention the staleness of the other relievers), his non-interest in the importance of players getting on base and so on. But really it comes down to this team's underachievement that makes him a poor manager for this (and probably most any other team in MLB, although I wish the Cardinals would hire him) team. Keep the excuses and condescension coming as it keeps me entertained.

Bum

I'm sure Dusty himself would agree to the tenor of "You can always do better" but your standard for 2012 is obviously skewed by 2011. It was a bad season last year, which happens. This year is looking good so far to me. I don't see it your way at all. I also think many of the players are meeting or exceeding their expectations under Dusty. Although, if your expectations are really high (they seem to be), I can see why you are not happy.

MikeThierry
06-26-2012, 12:20 PM
OH I don't know about that. Who cares what chubbies fans think anyway? How about the year and half of underachievement? How about that? His job is to motivate these players to play better than and at worst meet expectations based on their talent levels. He has not done that at all. That's the rub. Sure, one can criticize his inability to construct a lineup, his overuse of certain bullpen arms (not necessarily to the point of injury, just the point of exhaustion :eek:, not to mention the staleness of the other relievers), his non-interest in the importance of players getting on base and so on. But really it comes down to this team's underachievement that makes him a poor manager for this (and probably most any other team in MLB, although I wish the Cardinals would hire him) team. Keep the excuses and condescension coming as it keeps me entertained.

Bum

That's kind of a silly criticism. How can a manager will a player to do better? I've witnessed the best manager I have ever seen manage on the field in TLR all those years and even he had a hard time "willing" or motivating players to do better. What he did do is put pressure on them to compete hard all 9 innings. That's about as much as a manager can really do with their players. From what I'm seeing from a far, Baker seems to be pushing players to play a hard 9. Secondly, who's expectations are they trying to match? Realistic expectations or expectations from fans based on hype? You may think that they have a certain level of talent but reality might be completely different. Take Stubbs for example. Ever since I have been in this forum, the poster here love this guy's upside. However, what if he is what he is? What if his ceiling is actually a guy with a ton of speed but will strike out 9000 times per year? You can't will a player to be better than he actually is.

mdccclxix
06-26-2012, 12:21 PM
I see you missed the sarcasm in his post...

No, I agreed with it, but didn't write it out well. I liked Walt's offseason, but think he missed out on some key FA's the last few years.

mdccclxix
06-26-2012, 12:24 PM
Dusty is playing Ludwick/Rolen over Frazier and batting Cozart/Stubbs at the top of the lineup instead of Hanigan. He's still a bad manager.

Frazier will get at bats and Rolen will play because of his contract, status, and defense, and the fact he's going to hit at least some. Hanigan at leadoff is not realistic and the #2 hitter is OPSing over .800 last time I checked. No reason to put Hanigan #2. In all, this is small potatoes and certainly not evidence that Dusty is a bad manager.

mdccclxix
06-26-2012, 12:25 PM
That's kind of a silly criticism. How can a manager will a player to do better? I've witnessed the best manager I have ever seen manage on the field in TLR all those years and even he had a hard time "willing" or motivating players to do better. What he did do is put pressure on them to compete hard all 9 innings. That's about as much as a manager can really do with their players. From what I'm seeing from a far, Baker seems to be pushing players to play a hard 9. Secondly, who's expectations are they trying to match? Realistic expectations or expectations from fans based on hype? You may think that they have a certain level of talent but reality might be completely different. Take Stubbs for example. Ever since I have been in this forum, the poster here love this guy's upside. However, what if he is what he is? What if his ceiling is actually a guy with a ton of speed but will strike out 9000 times per year? You can't will a player to be better than he actually is.

+1

hebroncougar
06-26-2012, 12:31 PM
Frazier will get at bats and Rolen will play because of his contract, status, and defense, and the fact he's going to hit at least some. Hanigan at leadoff is not realistic and the #2 hitter is OPSing over .800 last time I checked. No reason to put Hanigan #2. In all, this is small potatoes and certainly not evidence that Dusty is a bad manager.

Why is Hanigan at leadoff not realistic?

reds44
06-26-2012, 12:37 PM
Frazier will get at bats and Rolen will play because of his contract, status, and defense, and the fact he's going to hit at least some. Hanigan at leadoff is not realistic and the #2 hitter is OPSing over .800 last time I checked. No reason to put Hanigan #2. In all, this is small potatoes and certainly not evidence that Dusty is a bad manager.
How is it not realistic? He has the (I believe) 2nd best on base on the team behind Votto. Why would you not want him on base for the best hitter in baseball?

mdccclxix
06-26-2012, 12:39 PM
Why is Hanigan at leadoff not realistic?

Not many managers bat catchers leadoff. They are slow, they don't play everyday, they get beat up as it is, those are some of the reasons it's not realistic. In Hanigan's case, he may find less playing time in the near future. I happen to find the concept interesting, but it doesn't bring me to revolt against Dusty at all. Hanigan is performing effectively as the 8th hitter that helps turn the lineup over, etc.

Bumstead
06-26-2012, 12:41 PM
How is it not realistic? He has the (I believe) 2nd best on base on the team behind Votto. Why would you not want him on base for the best hitter in baseball?

He'd clog the bases? :dunno: Can't have him getting on there and then have the number 2 hitter not know what to do with a guy on base can we?

mdccclxix
06-26-2012, 12:43 PM
He'd clog the bases? :dunno: Can't have him getting on there and then have Cozart have the number 2 hitter not know what to do with a guy on base can we?

That truly is what Dusty thinks isn't it? :thumbup: Thanks for adding that. Dusty doesn't just NOT want high OBP at the top of the lineup, he actually does not like OBP and he's never said it's a good thing. :rolleyes:

mdccclxix
06-26-2012, 12:47 PM
Dusty hates to lose and loves to win. He's into every single game and loves the Reds.

Go Dusty! Kick some azz!

http://a.espncdn.com/photo/2012/0312/mlb_a_baker_gb1_300.jpg

Always Red
06-26-2012, 12:47 PM
:deadhorse:

Seems like I've been reading this same thread all year long. And to think, this thread actually started out positively!

Bumstead
06-26-2012, 12:49 PM
That's kind of a silly criticism. How can a manager will a player to do better? I've witnessed the best manager I have ever seen manage on the field in TLR all those years and even he had a hard time "willing" or motivating players to do better. What he did do is put pressure on them to compete hard all 9 innings. That's about as much as a manager can really do with their players. From what I'm seeing from a far, Baker seems to be pushing players to play a hard 9. Secondly, who's expectations are they trying to match? Realistic expectations or expectations from fans based on hype? You may think that they have a certain level of talent but reality might be completely different. Take Stubbs for example. Ever since I have been in this forum, the poster here love this guy's upside. However, what if he is what he is? What if his ceiling is actually a guy with a ton of speed but will strike out 9000 times per year? You can't will a player to be better than he actually is.

So, a manager's job is just to turn in a lineup card and be a strategist? 2 things Dusty is terrible at...if that were the case and he wasn't supposed to provide motivation then why not pay me $200K and save some money for a cleanup or leadoff hitter? Hell, why not just give you the job? I have watched more than one under-talented St Louis team not only crush the Reds repeatedly but win World Series they had no business even being in under LaRussa.

As to just being a fan and meeting my expectations? If you are satisfied with a losing record from the Reds last season and then struggling to stay ahead of a very thin Pirates team with little pitching and a Cardinals team that can barely field a team and has their ace (arse) on the DL this year, then I don't know what to tell you. The Cardinals and Pirates managers are doing something you said a manager can't do, they are making their players play better.

Carry on.

Bum

Bumstead
06-26-2012, 12:51 PM
Dusty hates to lose and loves to win. He's into every single game and loves the Reds.

Go Dusty! Kick some azz!

http://a.espncdn.com/photo/2012/0312/mlb_a_baker_gb1_300.jpg

Introduce Dusty to the highest bidder and he will love them too...

mdccclxix
06-26-2012, 12:58 PM
So, a manager's job is just to turn in a lineup card and be a strategist? 2 things Dusty is terrible at...if that were the case and he wasn't supposed to provide motivation then why not pay me $200K and save some money for a cleanup or leadoff hitter? Hell, why not just give you the job? I have watched more than one under-talented St Louis team not only crush the Reds repeatedly but win World Series they had no business even being in under LaRussa.

As to just being a fan and meeting my expectations? If you are satisfied with a losing record from the Reds last season and then struggling to stay ahead of a very thin Pirates team with little pitching and a Cardinals team that can barely field a team and has their ace (arse) on the DL this year, then I don't know what to tell you. The Cardinals and Pirates managers are doing something you said a manager can't do, they are making their players play better.

Carry on.

Bum

The Pirates have good pitching, although many of their players are rather thin. The Cards have a really great roster, if you take a look. Offense and pitching in spades. They're well below where they "should" be, as were some of Larussa's most talented teams. I predict they make a charge for the division, but we'll need Dusty and Co, and all good fans, to hold them off! Go Reds!

mdccclxix
06-26-2012, 12:59 PM
Introduce Dusty to the highest bidder and he will love them too...

That's true for just about everybody in baseball, it don't stop the love!

MikeThierry
06-26-2012, 01:00 PM
So, a manager's job is just to turn in a lineup card and be a strategist? 2 things Dusty is terrible at...if that were the case and he wasn't supposed to provide motivation then why not pay me $200K and save some money for a cleanup or leadoff hitter? Hell, why not just give you the job? I have watched more than one under-talented St Louis team not only crush the Reds repeatedly but win World Series they had no business even being in under LaRussa.

As to just being a fan and meeting my expectations? If you are satisfied with a losing record from the Reds last season and then struggling to stay ahead of a very thin Pirates team with little pitching and a Cardinals team that can barely field a team and has their ace (arse) on the DL this year, then I don't know what to tell you. The Cardinals and Pirates managers are doing something you said a manager can't do, they are making their players play better.

Carry on.

Bum

I didn't say a manager's job was not to motivate. The point I was making is managers can't motivate a player to play better than he truely is. Getting players to play a "hard 9" is motivation and it's something I see Dusty doing. I don't get a sense that players on the Reds are "mailing it in". However, Dusty cannot motivate Stubbs to strike out less than 100 times per year. Willing a player to better than his current talent level is impossible.

The Cardinals winning World Series had nothing to do with players playing better than what their capable of. What TLR and Duccan, for that matter, did all those years is put players in positions to win with the strengths they have. Duncan was masterful at this. When he would get a "washed up pitcher", Duncan would teach or lean him towards using pitches that are still strengths instead of using pitches that the pitcher thinks he's still can be successful with. It sounds simple but not a lot of managers do this. None of this had to do with making players better. It had to do with figuring out what players do well with and getting those players to highlight those things. It shouldn't be overlooked also that TLR had a lot of talented players. The 04 team with Pujols, Rolen, and Edmonds was a team that won a ton of games because players played to their ability, which was on the elite level. The 06 team that won it all had a horrible regular season but the talent level was still elite on that team.

Bumstead
06-26-2012, 01:20 PM
I didn't say a manager's job was not to motivate. The point I was making is managers can't motivate a player to play better than he truely is. Getting players to play a "hard 9" is motivation and it's something I see Dusty doing. I don't get a sense that players on the Reds are "mailing it in". However, Dusty cannot motivate Stubbs to strike out less than 100 times per year. Willing a player to better than his current talent level is impossible.

The Cardinals winning World Series had nothing to do with players playing better than what their capable of. What TLR and Duccan, for that matter, did all those years is put players in positions to win with the strengths they have. Duncan was masterful at this. When he would get a "washed up pitcher", Duncan would teach or lean him towards using pitches that are still strengths instead of using pitches that the pitcher thinks he's still can be successful with. It sounds simple but not a lot of managers do this. None of this had to do with making players better. It had to do with figuring out what players do well with and getting those players to highlight those things. It shouldn't be overlooked also that TLR had a lot of talented players. The 04 team with Pujols, Rolen, and Edmonds was a team that won a ton of games because players played to their ability, which was on the elite level. The 06 team that won it all had a horrible regular season but the talent level was still elite on that team.

I never mentioned playing above one's talent level. I mentioned motivating players to play better and give all they have. Maybe, talking to Stubbs about his approach at the plate would change the 150K's per year, instead of the "swing the damn bat" mentality that Dusty has. Last year's STL had no business being in the playoffs let alone the world series. The Reds had no business not being in the playoffs. I guess y'all are satisfied with the underachievement which is certainly your prerogative.

Bum

REDREAD
06-26-2012, 01:44 PM
Dusty is playing Ludwick/Rolen over Frazier and batting Cozart/Stubbs at the top of the lineup instead of Hanigan. He's still a bad manager.

Last 28 days, Ludwick is OPSing 894. He got off to a slow start, but he's not been a problem.

Rolen is a legitimate HOF player who played a huge role on this team until he got hurt, and has been playing well since coming off the DL. There's not a manager in baseball who would've benched Rolen when he came off the DL for a guy like Frasier.

Since Rolen has come off the DL, he's started 6 games and pinch hit in one.
In the same time span, Frazier has started 5 games and pinch hit in one.
Frazier is still getting plenty of playing time.

Stubbs has been thriving in the #2 slot, can't see how you can complain about that.

Cozart is not the optimal leadoff guy, but he's on pace to score 92 runs. That's not too shabby.
I'd rather have Phillips leadoff, but we need him in the middle of the lineup now.

REDREAD
06-26-2012, 01:50 PM
How is it not realistic? He has the (I believe) 2nd best on base on the team behind Votto. Why would you not want him on base for the best hitter in baseball?

Because there's more to it than OBP. Hannigan has no power or speed.
Thus it's more difficult to get him into scoring position.

Plus, his OBP would likely drop when elevated to the #2 slot.
Hannigan gets a lot of walks in the #8 slot, since he makes good contact.
Without the pitcher batting behind him, his walks will probably drop.

traderumor
06-26-2012, 01:53 PM
Because there's more to it than OBP. Hannigan has no power or speed.
Thus it's more difficult to get him into scoring position.

Plus, his OBP would likely drop when elevated to the #2 slot.
Hannigan gets a lot of walks in the #8 slot, since he makes good contact.
Without the pitcher batting behind him, his walks will probably drop.I think this impact is underestimated when folks start recommending him for #2. However, I think his punch and judy style might turn some walks into singles, so same difference. It still leaves us without a leadoff hitter, Cozart is driving me batty.

Bumstead
06-26-2012, 01:57 PM
Last 28 days, Ludwick is OPSing 894. He got off to a slow start, but he's not been a problem.

Rolen is a legitimate HOF player who played a huge role on this team until he got hurt, and has been playing well since coming off the DL. There's not a manager in baseball who would've benched Rolen when he came off the DL for a guy like Frasier.

Since Rolen has come off the DL, he's started 6 games and pinch hit in one.
In the same time span, Frazier has started 5 games and pinch hit in one.
Frazier is still getting plenty of playing time.

Stubbs has been thriving in the #2 slot, can't see how you can complain about that.

Cozart is not the optimal leadoff guy, but he's on pace to score 92 runs. That's not too shabby.
I'd rather have Phillips leadoff, but we need him in the middle of the lineup now.

Really? Here are his career Reds #'s: .262/.328/.439/.768

Not only will he never make the HOF but even if at one time he was worthy of it being said that he was competing at that level, he certainly hasn't competed anywhere near that level with the Reds, nor will he. To expect him to change at this point in his career or to expect him to even maintain the above is a bit on the nutty side. The real question, and maybe we should set up a bet, is what is the over/under on the number of games till his next injury? Hey window, I'm just going to throw $25M right out of you if you don't mind! That being said, Dusty would do well to play him once a series to try to lengthen his time on the active roster cause at least he keeps Willie Harris from being on the roster...plus, I think Rolen probably is as good a coach/manager as we have on the bench; with him on the DL, we tend to lose that.

Bum

klw
06-26-2012, 02:04 PM
Why is Hanigan at leadoff not realistic?

Is Ryan Hanigan basically a slower version of Jason Kendall?

RedlegJake
06-26-2012, 02:15 PM
Hanigan is too slow to leadoff realistically, plus he doesn't play everyday, he actually would "clog" the bases ahead of Stubbs, he has no power, and Stubbs does fine in the 2 hole if you really care to look at his numbers there although his strikeouts do drive a person batty, so Hanigan is best left where he is. Dusty simply has no one besides BP to leadoff. I am a proponent of Bruce in the four spot, damn the lefties, and let BP leadoff until they can find a better cleanup hitter. Frazier or Rolen hitting fifth after Bruce makes more sense to me than either hitting fourth and BP was a decent leadoff hitter, miles better than Cozart. Stubbs was better than Cozart strikeouts and all but BP first Stubbs second Votto third Bruce clean up Frazier/Lud/Heisey fifth Rolen/Frazier sixth Cozart seventh and Hanigan/Navarro eighth (Mes to AAA for awhile to get his stroke and confidence as a hitter back).

As to the original topic I like Dusty most of the time although sometimes he does drive me nuts. Usually when dealing with Chapman.

reds44
06-26-2012, 02:20 PM
I don't care if he's a slow guy hitting in front of Stubbs. Get as many people on base for Votto as possible.

You could always hit Stubbs leadoff and Hanigan second but according to redszone 2nd is the only place Stubbs can hit and not suck.

MikeThierry
06-26-2012, 02:30 PM
I never mentioned playing above one's talent level. I mentioned motivating players to play better and give all they have. Maybe, talking to Stubbs about his approach at the plate would change the 150K's per year, instead of the "swing the damn bat" mentality that Dusty has. Last year's STL had no business being in the playoffs let alone the world series. The Reds had no business not being in the playoffs. I guess y'all are satisfied with the underachievement which is certainly your prerogative.

The first part of that statement would indicate that you're asking players to play above one's talent level. Do you know for a fact that the players right now aren't giving it their all? That's kind of insulting to the Reds to accuse players of not giving it their all when you're not in the club house. I never get the sense that the Reds clubhouse is equivalent to the 2011 Boston Red Sox club house.

To assume that because a player is struggle indicates he isn't giving it his all is just flawed. Baseball is a sport based on failure in which even the elite players fail 70% of the time. To think that every player on the team can succeed all the time is just unrealistic. In the famous words of Ron Washington "That how baseball go".

No, I'm not satisfied that teams underachieve. Your putting words in my mouth considering that I expect the Cards to play to the level that won the World Series the year before. In no way am I glad the Cardinals played horrible in May. That said, I never once questioned that they're giving it their all. That was never an issue in my mind.

Bumstead
06-26-2012, 02:36 PM
The first part of that statement would indicate that you're asking players to play above one's talent level. Do you know for a fact that the players right now aren't giving it their all? That's kind of insulting to the Reds to accuse players of not giving it their all when you're not in the club house. I never get the sense that the Reds clubhouse is equivalent to the 2011 Boston Red Sox club house.

To assume that because a player is struggle indicates he isn't giving it his all is just flawed. Baseball is a sport based on failure in which even the elite players fail 70% of the time. To think that every player on the team can succeed all the time is just unrealistic. In the famous words of Ron Washington "That how baseball go".

No, I'm not satisfied that teams underachieve. Your putting words in my mouth considering that I expect the Cards to play to the level that won the World Series the year before. In no way am I glad the Cardinals played horrible in May. That said, I never once questioned that they're giving it their all. That was never an issue in my mind.

Ah...you are the Cardinals fan...no wonder you like Dusty! :p

I will save my debate for Reds fans. If I am putting words in your mouth, then you are most certainly putting words into mine. I don't like Dusty and I have my reasons. You are a Cardinals fan and like Dusty, and I understand that! J/K.

_Sir_Charles_
06-26-2012, 02:37 PM
He's managing to stay in front. Right now his tone is urgent and results minded. I think he could be pressing right at the right time, asking his team to fight hard through this key stretch. He's got a team full of players in their prime, driving them hard is the right thing to do heading into the ASG. Take the Milwaukee series and bring the fight to the west coast. We'll see what happens, but I like what I'm hearing from Dusty. Go Reds. :beerme:

I agree.

Unfortunately, this thread turning negative was pretty predictable I'm sorry to say. It's kinda sad. This place has gotten pretty depressing this season especially considering where we are. I simply don't understand the negativity.

MikeThierry
06-26-2012, 02:40 PM
Ah...you are the Cardinals fan...no wonder you like Dusty! :p

I will save my debate for Reds fans. If I am putting words in your mouth, then you are most certainly putting words into mine. I don't like Dusty and I have my reasons. You are a Cardinals fan and like Dusty, and I understand that! J/K.

Read my first post. I was never a fan of Dusty Baker. I just feel that it's unfair to blame everything on him.

mdccclxix
06-26-2012, 02:49 PM
I agree.

Unfortunately, this thread turning negative was pretty predictable I'm sorry to say. It's kinda sad. This place has gotten pretty depressing this season especially considering where we are. I simply don't understand the negativity.

You have to feel sorry for Baker, he's been here 4-5 years and never had a leadoff guy. He's tried making wine from water, but it's seldom worked. And you can't bat Phillips 1st and 4th in the same game, unfortunately.

Where I thought he was probably too patient with last year's team in the summer months, I think he's learned he needs to keep the foot on the peddle with this team. He's also got better players through acquisition and development. This is team he knows can win, I hope Walt is still stirring for another player or two.

Bumstead
06-26-2012, 02:53 PM
Read my first post. I was never a fan of Dusty Baker. I just feel that it's unfair to blame everything on him.

I think it is also unfair to assume that I am blaming everything on him as well. I just don't think he is the right manager for this team. Clearly I think the players are underachieving and that is as much on them as it is on him. However, it's easier to find a manager to motivate them than it is to find new players. Not that I think the Reds should fire him during the season, they just shouldn't extend him IMHO. I also don't think Dusty puts players in the best position to succeed as he likes to say that he does; I also don't think he puts his best lineup out there as often as he should, but alas, I imagine these are all things we disagree about. I'm sure it gets old hearing about it over and over, but then again it gets old seeing Dusty do the same thing over and over as well.

Bum

Bumstead
06-26-2012, 02:54 PM
I agree.

Unfortunately, this thread turning negative was pretty predictable I'm sorry to say. It's kinda sad. This place has gotten pretty depressing this season especially considering where we are. I simply don't understand the negativity.

Also predictable was the cry for flowers and puppy dogs from the Dusty apologists...;)

Tom Servo
06-26-2012, 02:56 PM
Crazy idea that popped into my head: Keep the lineup the same, except flip BP and Cozart. BP leading off, Cozart hitting cleanup. Crazy enough to work? :dunno:

_Sir_Charles_
06-26-2012, 02:56 PM
It's consistent with his "theory" on hitting and consistent with the fact that we only have a couple or 3 players with reasonable patience at the plate. "Just swing fellas!" It's not "tired" when it fits the bill.

All his talk doesn't win games or set any tone. His job is to motivate these players to produce. They are under-performing for about a year and a half now. Sorry, I see no reason to be happy about that. Of course it was predictable when Dusty was hired but you don't want to hear that now do you?

Bum

It IS overstating things when that's NOT what he says. He doesn't tell his players to "just swing fellas!". He wants them to be aggressive at the plate. What's wrong with that? He wants them to be aggressive on balls in the strike zone. On balls you can drive. He doesn't want his guys to be passive or to work the count just for the sake of working the count. Quite often, the best pitch to hit that you see in an at bat is the first pitch. Just because the players aren't executing doesn't mean that the idea isn't sound. In the case of Stubbs, he's extremely passive during his AB's. He takes strikes right down the middle of the plate because he thinks that's what a hitter at the top of the lineup is supposed to do...see pitches. What SHOULD Dusty tell him in that situation? Keep working the count Drew...you'll draw a walk eventually. No, be aggressive during your ab's. If you see a pitch you can drive, take a freaking whack at it. I know we have a bunch of guys who strikeout a lot, but it's not due to Dusty's hitting philosophy...it's due to us having a bunch of low-contact types of hitters. Just my opinion.

MikeThierry
06-26-2012, 03:00 PM
I think it is also unfair to assume that I am blaming everything on him as well. I just don't think he is the right manager for this team. Clearly I think the players are underachieving and that is as much on them as it is on him. However, it's easier to find a manager to motivate them than it is to find new players. Not that I think the Reds should fire him during the season, they just shouldn't extend him IMHO. I also don't think Dusty puts players in the best position to succeed as he likes to say that he does; I also don't think he puts his best lineup out there as often as he should, but alas, I imagine these are all things we disagree about. I'm sure it gets old hearing about it over and over, but then again it gets old seeing Dusty do the same thing over and over as well.

Bum


Regardless of who you hire, people aren't going to be happy. I saw it all the time with TLR. He would have 130 some odd lineups every year and people wanted him fired for it. When batting the pitcher 8th and trying to think outside the box to score runs, people would literally have heart attacks over it in St. Louis. The manager is a no win job. I think on a whole, the Reds could do far worse than Dusty Baker. I actually think the Reds would regret letting go of Baker unless Francona is a guarantee to be Reds manager. The managerial talent out there is simply bare.

_Sir_Charles_
06-26-2012, 03:02 PM
Also predictable was the cry for flowers and puppy dogs from the Dusty apologists...;)

You don't think it's odd to have the vast majority of posts on a Reds message board being basically griping and moaning, complaining about this and that, when the team in question is in first place? It seems that there's no pleasing some people.

And I'm not apologizing for Dusty. He can drive me nuts with lots of things, but any manager is going to do that to some extent. I'm simply saying that what he says to the press is not necessarily what he's saying to his team. And even then, the fans take what he says to the press and twist it to suit their current Dusty-rant. We get it, you don't like Dusty. Lots of people don't. So why is it that his players never say a bad thing about the guy? Ex-players too?

mdccclxix
06-26-2012, 03:04 PM
Also predictable was the cry for flowers and puppy dogs from the Dusty apologists...;)

I don't apologize for Dusty, he's done nothing wrong! :D Ever! That's the thing with Dusty accusers, though, they accuse him of small things, add them up, resize them to enormous proportions, and repeat them over an over. Geeze get over it. He's doing some pretty good things night in and night out, pay attention.

OesterPoster
06-26-2012, 03:04 PM
Crazy idea that popped into my head: Keep the lineup the same, except flip BP and Cozart. BP leading off, Cozart hitting cleanup. Crazy enough to work? :dunno:

I'd rather see Hannigan hit cleanup with BP leading off, Stubbs second, and move Cozart down to the 8 spot.

MikeThierry
06-26-2012, 03:05 PM
It IS overstating things when that's NOT what he says. He doesn't tell his players to "just swing fellas!". He wants them to be aggressive at the plate. What's wrong with that? He wants them to be aggressive on balls in the strike zone. On balls you can drive. He doesn't want his guys to be passive or to work the count just for the sake of working the count. Quite often, the best pitch to hit that you see in an at bat is the first pitch. Just because the players aren't executing doesn't mean that the idea isn't sound. In the case of Stubbs, he's extremely passive during his AB's. He takes strikes right down the middle of the plate because he thinks that's what a hitter at the top of the lineup is supposed to do...see pitches. What SHOULD Dusty tell him in that situation? Keep working the count Drew...you'll draw a walk eventually. No, be aggressive during your ab's. If you see a pitch you can drive, take a freaking whack at it. I know we have a bunch of guys who strikeout a lot, but it's not due to Dusty's hitting philosophy...it's due to us having a bunch of low-contact types of hitters. Just my opinion.


I kind of question this process though. Why does a manager have more input on hitting than the hitting coach? It seems kind of flawed that a manager would have that much impact as to how hitters should hit. Isn't that's what a hitting coach is for?

bucksfan2
06-26-2012, 03:05 PM
Crazy idea that popped into my head: Keep the lineup the same, except flip BP and Cozart. BP leading off, Cozart hitting cleanup. Crazy enough to work? :dunno:

If the Reds were able to get a guy like Quintin to hit 4th moving BP to leadoff I think that would greatly improve this club. As it is not they have one guy who has done a decent job out of the leadoff spot being forced to hit 4th. They have a catcher who plays 60% of the time being suggested to hit leadoff by many. If you watched last nights game you saw the reason why Dusty likes to break up the left handed hitters. The Brewers brought in a lefty specalists to get out Votto but was forced to keep him in the game to face lefty killer BP becase Bruce was hitting 5th.

I think Dusty does a decent job with the deck he has been dealt. No manager in baseball is going to hit Hanigan 1st or 2nd. They don't have a leadoff hitter, don't really have a cleanup hitter, don't have much of a bench, but some how Dusty has them in 1st place right now. Not a bad job if you ask me. I guess that makes me a Dusty apologist, but I would rather be that than a Dusty hater.

_Sir_Charles_
06-26-2012, 03:09 PM
I kind of question this process though. Why does a manager have more input on hitting than the hitting coach? It seems kind of flawed that a manager would have that much impact as to how hitters should hit. Isn't that's what a hitting coach is for?

Again, we're assuming that he has more input. All we hear are the press tidbits. And Jacoby doesn't talk to the press. I would guess that Dusty sits down with his coaches during the off season and they agree on what they want the team to accomplish and how to reach that goal. I'm sure Dusty pulls a player aside every now and then and gives them a pointer or two. I bet he does the same with his pitchers. But the day in and day out stuff, I'm pretty sure he leaves to the respective coaches.

I like the fact that Dusty basically filters everything for the press. He takes the hits for his players and coaches quite often. He's certainly got his flaws, but that's not one of them IMO.

Bumstead
06-26-2012, 03:14 PM
You don't think it's odd to have the vast majority of posts on a Reds message board being basically griping and moaning, complaining about this and that, when the team in question is in first place? It seems that there's no pleasing some people.

And I'm not apologizing for Dusty. He can drive me nuts with lots of things, but any manager is going to do that to some extent. I'm simply saying that what he says to the press is not necessarily what he's saying to his team. And even then, the fans take what he says to the press and twist it to suit their current Dusty-rant. We get it, you don't like Dusty. Lots of people don't. So why is it that his players never say a bad thing about the guy? Ex-players too?

I don't read all the posts, just the one's that I have some interest in, so I guess I don't notice it. I did notice the same thing on the Indiana University basketball forum though this past season. High expectations lead to disappointment sometimes and I think last season's results and losing games this year that it seemed like the Reds should win probably grinds on fans. Also, I think sometimes posters come to the forum to vent their frustrations more often than they do talk about how great everything is. IMHO

As to players complaining, while I respect what they think and how they feel about a manager, it's really about finding a manager than can make a difference in the win/loss column regardless of who the players want to be their manager. IU players wanted Mike Davis to be their coach and they all loved him...after the first season at IU he was basically proved to be out of his league at an elite school like IU. Not saying these people are comparable, just saying the players aren't the best resource for these types of decisions.

Bum

REDREAD
06-26-2012, 03:20 PM
Really? Here are his career Reds #'s: .262/.328/.439/.768

Not only will he never make the HOF but even if at one time he was worthy of it being said that he was competing at that level, he certainly hasn't competed anywhere near that level with the Reds, nor will he. To expect him to change at this point in his career or to expect him to even maintain the above is a bit on the nutty side. The real question, and maybe we should set up a bet, is what is the over/under on the number of games till his next injury? Hey window, I'm just going to throw $25M right out of you if you don't mind! That being said, Dusty would do well to play him once a series to try to lengthen his time on the active roster cause at least he keeps Willie Harris from being on the roster...plus, I think Rolen probably is as good a coach/manager as we have on the bench; with him on the DL, we tend to lose that.

Bum

To say Rolen is not a HOF candidate is just plain silly.

Here's a quote from an article about the quality of 3b last year:

Perhaps we should rethink the defensive spectrum! Perhaps third base is the hardest position! Last year, third baseman had a .707 OPS — worsted only by catchers… and still shortstops. But the .252/.317/.390 collective batting line at the hot corner was just barely better than the shortstops with their .263/.317/.380 ways.

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/positional-power-rankings-third-base/

The article illustrates the lack of quality 3b. Rolen's line you posted is actually above average, even with his injuries. When you factor in his defense, he's above average.

Again, there's not a manager in ML baseball that would've benched Rolen after his DL stint. He's earned a chance to keep his job after healing from an injury. So far, so good. Dusty is doing a good job giving Frazier playing time as well. No one is suffering unjustly by Rolen playing.

MikeThierry
06-26-2012, 03:22 PM
LOL TLR benched and criticized Rolen due to injury issues.

Still, I think allowing Ron Santo into the HOF makes Rolen's case certainly easier. I don't think he's a first ballot but 20 years down the road, who knows.

REDREAD
06-26-2012, 03:29 PM
I think it is also unfair to assume that I am blaming everything on him as well. I just don't think he is the right manager for this team. Clearly I think the players are underachieving and that is as much on them as it is on him.

Strongly disagree here.
If we had a drill sargent/Ron Oester type manager yelling at the players to motivate them, do you think Phillips and Votto would've signed extensions? Not likely.

If you think the team is underachieving, how many games do think they could've won with more motivation? The Reds have been involved in a lot of 1 run games so far this year. I can't quickly find the record for team in one run games, but I think it's about .500 (maybe slightly less).. It would've been nice to win more of those, but the fact is that we play a lot of teams close.

It's time to remember that this is not a computer game.. It's a lot more difficult to win games in real life. Also, there's a human side to managing which Dusty seems to excell at.

edabbs44
06-26-2012, 03:30 PM
Crazy idea that popped into my head: Keep the lineup the same, except flip BP and Cozart. BP leading off, Cozart hitting cleanup. Crazy enough to work? :dunno:

When BP was slumping many were crying because he wasn't "protecting" Votto. Now he is "protecting" Joey and some want him moved out of the 4 hole because "no one" is on base for him?

Not picking on you, as this has been brought up more than once.

MikeThierry
06-26-2012, 03:32 PM
Strongly disagree here.
If we had a drill sargent/Ron Oester type manager yelling at the players to motivate them, do you think Phillips and Votto would've signed extensions? Not likely.

If you think the team is underachieving, how many games do think they could've won with more motivation? The Reds have been involved in a lot of 1 run games so far this year. I can't quickly find the record for team in one run games, but I think it's about .500 (maybe slightly less).. It would've been nice to win more of those, but the fact is that we play a lot of teams close.

It's time to remember that this is not a computer game.. It's a lot more difficult to win games in real life. Also, there's a human side to managing which Dusty seems to excell at.


Wait... this isn't MLB The Show? No wonder why nobody has 70 hr's at this point...

Vottomatic
06-26-2012, 04:20 PM
Yea, Walt's done nothing at all to try and put a good product on the field. :dunno:

Meh.

I have mixed feelings about Walt.

If it's a long term plan to be competitive, then he's pulling the right strings. But I don't feel like he's pulled that final string that wins a world series title. Still 2 or 3 gaping holes that have been there for 2 or 3 years now and not addressed.

Sure, signing Bruce, Cueto, Votto, Phillips, etc. have solidified the core. But not fixing LF, and counting on an oft-injured Rolen, a hole at 3B, no legit cleanup hitter, and low OBP guys at the top of the order, has been a problem. Even CF is a problem for me.

I'll cut him slack on Madson and Masset. No way anyone saw that coming. This bullpen might be even better than it already is had they not gotten injured. Which might have put Chapman in the starting rotation now or eventually, which would have allowed possibly to trade Leake or Bailey for those hole I talked about.

Edskin
06-26-2012, 04:26 PM
I'm a results-based guy as well. And here is what impresses me with Dusty.

The manager of the Chicago Cubs during their most successful season(s) in over 100 years? Dusty Baker.

The manager of the San Francisco Giants during their most successful seasons in team (SF) history prior to 2010? Dusty Baker.

The manager of the Reds during their first post season since 1995? Dusty Baker.

Maybe Dusty just has a knack for being in the right place at the right time. Maybe he's just lucky and maybe he was a reason those teams didn't succeed more than they did. But the more likely answer is that there IS a connection and that whatever it is that Dusty does, kind of seems to work

traderumor
06-26-2012, 05:06 PM
Here's something that I think a lot of folks may not recall, but I do all too well, which is one reason that I give my overall support to Dusty Baker.

I learned baseball from the BRM. Sure, it raised the bar of my expectations forever, but I think that I'm mature enough in my view of the game and of being a Reds fan that I realize that assembling that amount of offensive and defensive talent is not a realistic expectation for any franchise, even those with seemingly unlimited financial resources.

However, it was not just the talent, but the work ethic and discipline of the Reds that also became an expectation. During the dark days of 2001-2008, the Reds became a lackadaisical organization. They did not seem all that interested in doing whatever it took to become a top organization. They just showed up for the ballgames, tried to field an entertaining team, then hoped we had a good time at the ballpark, win or lose.

There seemed to be more emphasis on personalities and seeing home runs than fielding a team that played good baseball. Wasn't that a fun comeback, down 7-0 after two? Whew, what a game, 9-8, walkoff homer for the win. Night after night after night. Except sometimes the offense didn't have a comeback in them and they'd lose ugly after another Todd Van Poppel outing. There were also discussions of players feeling no pressure, just a nice place to play and raise a family. Working on my game? Yea, I took some extra BP. We'll come back and get 'em tomorrow.

What? This is not an attitude befitting the Cincinnati Reds I know!

Krivsky arrived and started the process of organization change and attitude, I think he deserves a heckuva lot of credit for immediately upgrading this organization from top to bottom. Castellini arrived and he had a BRM pedigree and brought some others with him (the Williams brothers) who were likely as sickened as a lot of us were at what had happened to the organization. And then he hired a real manager, which was Dusty. Remember he followed the disasters of Boone, Miley, Narron, who really just were not expected by anyone to succeed, and they didn't.

Sure, Dusty has his flaws, but he brought a similar passion to the game that the ownership group does, that Jocketty does. Finally, there are folks that clearly understand what a first class organization looks like from top to bottom. These are folks with a track record in the game, not some wannabes that are in this on the cheap so we can root, root, root for the home team. They are instilling the expectation of winning ballgames in Cincinnati. World class players are signing on to play for the Reds, some enlisting for their entire careers. Players are excited to be drafted by the Cincinnati Reds.

And Dusty Baker is a part of that reformation and revitalization of baseball in Cincinnati, one my own kids are now proud to root for. One I am proud again to root for. This time I appreciate it so much more because I've seen the other side, and it ain't pretty.

AtomicDumpling
06-26-2012, 06:13 PM
My opinion is that Dusty Baker is a sub-par manager but not a terrible one. I don't see anything that he does to actually make this team better. He manages precisely by the old-school book and very rarely deviates from it. He never has an original thought and has not evolved has the game as evolved since the 1970's. He is a middle-of-the-road, run-of-the-mill manager. He is never going to give the Reds an advantage over the pack. He doesn't make much of a difference one way or the other. His lack of appreciation for OBP and his fondness for wasting outs with the sacrifice far too often drive me crazy. Dusty is fine as an "off the field" manager in terms of motivating players, giving them some rest when they struggle and keeping the bench players active. In terms of an "in-game" manager his strategy is atrocious, his handling of the starting pitchers is good, his handling of double-switches and pinch hitters is fine, and his handling of the late inning relievers is not too swift.

I hope the Reds let Baker's contract expire. He is making way too much money ($3.5 million per year!), money that would be better spent on acquiring better players. After Dusty leaves it would be great to get one of Joe Maddon's proteges in Tampa Bay, such as former Reds player and current Rays bench coach Dave Martinez perhaps. The Reds could use a more modern, innovative approach to the 21st century game.

Tom Servo
06-26-2012, 07:35 PM
After Dusty leaves it would be great to get one of Joe Maddon's proteges in Tampa Bay, such as former Reds player and current Rays bench coach Dave Martinez perhaps. The Reds could use a more modern, innovative approach to the 21st century game.
http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_ll3t16CMhD1qccki6.jpg

I vote yes for the beard.

Big Klu
06-26-2012, 08:43 PM
http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_ll3t16CMhD1qccki6.jpg

I vote yes for the beard.

Why the hell would we want Fidel Castro as our manager?

dabvu2498
06-26-2012, 08:57 PM
Why the hell would we want Fidel Castro as our manager?

He is a Red.

traderumor
06-26-2012, 10:12 PM
Timesaver template for each team's message board. No express written consent of MLB or me is needed.

My opinion is that <insert your team's manager name here> is a sub-par manager but not a terrible one. I don't see anything that he does to actually make this team better. He manages precisely by the old-school book and very rarely deviates from it. He never has an original thought and has not evolved has the game as evolved since the 1970's. He is a middle-of-the-road, run-of-the-mill manager. He is never going to give the <insert your team's nickname here> an advantage over the pack. He doesn't make much of a difference one way or the other. His lack of appreciation for OBP and his fondness for wasting outs with the sacrifice far too often drive me crazy. <insert your team's manager's first name here> is fine as an "off the field" manager in terms of motivating players, giving them some rest when they struggle and keeping the bench players active. In terms of an "in-game" manager his strategy is atrocious, his handling of the starting pitchers is good, his handling of double-switches and pinch hitters is fine, and his handling of the late inning relievers is not too swift.

I hope the <insert your team's nickname here> let <insert your team's manager's last name here> contract expire. He is making way too much money (<insert your team's manager's salary> million per year!), money that would be better spent on acquiring better players. After <insert your team's manager's first name here> leaves it would be great to get one of <insert name of another team's manager> proteges in <insert name of team for manager who thinks most like you or is most highly regarded on ESPN or mlb.com, such as former <insert your team's nickname here> player and current <insert team nickname for manager mentioned above> bench coach <insert bench coach for team mentioned above> perhaps. The <insert your team's nickname here> could use a more modern, innovative approach to the 21st century game.

Chip R
06-27-2012, 10:29 AM
My opinion is that Dusty Baker is a sub-par manager but not a terrible one. I don't see anything that he does to actually make this team better.

You may be right. However he may do things that you or I can't see that makes this team better. Not everything has to be seen or measured to be effective.


He manages precisely by the old-school book and very rarely deviates from it. He never has an original thought and has not evolved has the game as evolved since the 1970's. He is a middle-of-the-road, run-of-the-mill manager. He is never going to give the Reds an advantage over the pack. He doesn't make much of a difference one way or the other. His lack of appreciation for OBP and his fondness for wasting outs with the sacrifice far too often drive me crazy.

Those are legitimate criticisms. But there's also more than one way to skin a cat. Baseball is different than other sports where playing/managing "Old School" is a recipe for defeat. You don't see basketball teams throwing up set shots or running a Four-Corners offense. You don't see football teams run the ball quite as mush as they used to or have pure thowers play quarterback anymore. In baseball, you can employ "old School" stratigies and they work just fine. It may not be to your taste but it does work.


Dusty is fine as an "off the field" manager in terms of motivating players, giving them some rest when they struggle and keeping the bench players active.

Again, those are things that cannot be seen or measured.


In terms of an "in-game" manager his strategy is atrocious, his handling of the starting pitchers is good, his handling of double-switches and pinch hitters is fine, and his handling of the late inning relievers is not too swift.

I think he has had some bad luck with his late inning relievers. He looked like a genius last night when Chapman saved the game. He would have looked like a bum if Chapman blew the game. The players aren't robots. They have to perform. When they do, the manager looks good. When they don't, not so much.


I hope the Reds let Baker's contract expire. He is making way too much money ($3.5 million per year!), money that would be better spent on acquiring better players.

Who are you going to acquire for $3M (since you have to pay the new guy at least $500K) that is going to make a difference?


After Dusty leaves it would be great to get one of Joe Maddon's proteges in Tampa Bay, such as former Reds player and current Rays bench coach Dave Martinez perhaps. The Reds could use a more modern, innovative approach to the 21st century game.

What is this "21st Century game"? Does it have lasers and robots and droids?
Do they play games in outer space?

redsmetz
06-27-2012, 02:09 PM
What is this "21st Century game"? Does it have lasers and robots and droids? Do they play games in outer space?

Clearly you have not been keeping up on the latest developments.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_Pyqe757ODdY/TCTj3YH_wXI/AAAAAAAAAPQ/0x5jcqlppY4/s1600/light-saber-baseball.jpg

Crumbley
06-27-2012, 03:27 PM
Read the thread title as "Krusty", thought we were getting the scoop on a slobberknocker.

AtomicDumpling
06-27-2012, 06:40 PM
You may be right. However he may do things that you or I can't see that makes this team better. Not everything has to be seen or measured to be effective.



Those are legitimate criticisms. But there's also more than one way to skin a cat. Baseball is different than other sports where playing/managing "Old School" is a recipe for defeat. You don't see basketball teams throwing up set shots or running a Four-Corners offense. You don't see football teams run the ball quite as mush as they used to or have pure thowers play quarterback anymore. In baseball, you can employ "old School" stratigies and they work just fine. It may not be to your taste but it does work.



Again, those are things that cannot be seen or measured.



I think he has had some bad luck with his late inning relievers. He looked like a genius last night when Chapman saved the game. He would have looked like a bum if Chapman blew the game. The players aren't robots. They have to perform. When they do, the manager looks good. When they don't, not so much.



Who are you going to acquire for $3M (since you have to pay the new guy at least $500K) that is going to make a difference?



What is this "21st Century game"? Does it have lasers and robots and droids?
Do they play games in outer space?

If you can't see how the game has changed since the 1970's then I am not surprised you are a supporter of Dusty Baker.

Brutus
06-27-2012, 07:03 PM
If you can't see how the game has changed since the 1970's then I am not surprised you are a supporter of Dusty Baker.

How much has it really changed? Pitchers still throw off a mound and toward home plate, where the batters are still standing 60 feet, 6 inches away. They still have four balls for a walk, three strikes for an out and three outs in an inning.

Parks have gotten smaller, in some cases. Players have gotten bigger in others. But the game itself really isn't terribly different.

How we measure the game has changed, but the game itself is much the same.

westofyou
06-27-2012, 07:06 PM
The last decade and a half was more like the 50's than the 70's, we've lost astroturf and multi-use stadiums, but it's still baseball.

Drop a body into a ballpark in 1924 and the game will look very familiar, do that to a fan of any other major sport and you couldn't even begin to say the same thing.

Chip R
06-27-2012, 11:12 PM
If you can't see how the game has changed since the 1970's then I am not surprised you are a supporter of Dusty Baker.

You mean like Earl Weaver's pitching, defense and 3 run HRs?

AtomicDumpling
06-28-2012, 04:34 AM
Teams do a lot of things they did not do in the 20th century and have also learned to not do some things that used to be considered smart. Obviously there is much more information to process and much more technology involved in strategy and preparation than there was then, that is the point I was making.

Statistical analysis has gone a long way towards actually proving which strategies work better than others. Dusty still uses the old strategies that have been shown to be less wise (such as sacrifice bunting, valuing speed over OBP, batter vs pitcher histories, etc -- all of which Dusty still espouses). Managing a team nowadays requires a lot more time and effort than it did in the 70's. You simply cannot manage a team now the same way the game was managed when Dusty began his career. If you do your team will not reach its full potential. In my opinion the Reds are way behind the bell curve in terms of understanding and utilizing the latest techniques and strategies. They certainly are not doing anything innovative. They are trying to play catch up rather than leading the way. That is not all Dusty's fault, but I don't see him doing anything that blazes new trails.

I am not one of the folks saying that Dusty is a terrible manager, nor am I one of his apologists. Believe it or not it is truly possible for one person to say both good and bad things about Dusty Baker. Unfortunately no matter what you say you are going to get attacked by one camp or the other. I think Dusty Baker is an average manager. He has strengths and weaknesses. I just don't think average is good enough. I want an excellent manager.

AtomicDumpling
06-30-2012, 04:31 AM
How much has it really changed? Pitchers still throw off a mound and toward home plate, where the batters are still standing 60 feet, 6 inches away. They still have four balls for a walk, three strikes for an out and three outs in an inning.

Parks have gotten smaller, in some cases. Players have gotten bigger in others. But the game itself really isn't terribly different.

How we measure the game has changed, but the game itself is much the same.

Posted this in the other Dusty thread but it applies here too.



Have you not noticed that players are a lot bigger (due to workout regimens not steroids), pitchers throw much harder, pitchers throw a wider variety of pitches, defensive shifting used much more, players studying video so everyone's weaknesses are exposed, statistical analysis has lead to huge changes in philosophy and strategy, improved surgical techniques and physical therapy keep the best players on the field and in peak condition, money rules the game now with payrolls averaging $100 million, ballparks are smaller and actually have real grass, interleague play, the cut fastball rules the game now, Latin players compose almost 50% of the league now, PitchFx, sabermetrics, the Wild Card has been added and the playoffs have expanded, instant replay has been added?

That is a long list of huge changes that I thought of in about a minute and I am sure I left out a bunch of things. No, the game is completely different now than it was when Dusty played beside Hank Aaron in the 1970's. The game has changed a lot since those days. Watch some Big Red Machine games and notice how small the players are -- even the sluggers. You simply can't manage the same way they did back in a bygone era and expect to succeed.

mdccclxix
07-06-2012, 09:59 PM
Heard from Dusty tonight on the Marty pre-game interview and he mentioned that "you hate to start talking about trading guys but a lot of guys have had opportunities to win a job by now." It was in regards to helping the offense.

I'll file that under, I like what I'm hearing from Dusty.

Always Red
07-06-2012, 10:00 PM
Heard from Dusty tonight on the Marty pre-game interview and he mentioned that "you hate to start talking about trading guys but a lot of guys have had opportunities to win a job by now."

I'll file that under, I like what I'm hearing from Dusty.

I'll file that under "Dusty is feeling the heat."

westofyou
07-06-2012, 10:23 PM
I'll file that under "Dusty is feeling the heat."

No doubt, the title manager implies that you are controlling the path.

If the path gets astray then you need to "manage" it.

Essentially the comment implies that those players haven't performed as planned (cue the Jocketty part of this) and it might be time to explore options outside of the plan