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Ohayou
06-30-2012, 06:19 PM
23 year old DBack prospect in AAA, Springfield native. Would look nice in a Reds uniform. :)

http://www.baseball-reference.com/minors/player.cgi?id=eaton-002ada

http://www.minorleagueball.com/2012/6/25/3115106/prospect-of-the-day-adam-eaton-of-arizona-diamondbacks-scouting-report

RiverRat13
06-30-2012, 08:11 PM
Nice. I've been thinking about starting a thread about Eaton myself.

Reno is notorious for inflating hitters' numbers. While searching for info on Eaton a few weeks ago I came across a DBacks blog post that calculated that you need to subtract 240 points of OPS (100 OBP and 140 SLG) from a Reno hitter to estimate what they'd do in the bigs. That would put Eaton around .355 OBP and .383 SLG. Sounds a lot like he'd give close to what a David DeJesus would give except Adam can still play CF.

http://www.azsnakepit.com/2012/6/11/3035868/reno-aces-statistics-park-factors-altitude

RedlegJake
07-05-2012, 03:33 PM
I don't think you could pry him from Arizona - they are very high in him, not just baseball but the intangibles. He scores off the charts. And he's a personal favorite of Towers - I expect to see him in Arizona next season if not sooner.

Vottomatic
07-05-2012, 04:28 PM
Would you trade Corcino straight up for Eaton?

RiverRat13
07-05-2012, 05:04 PM
Would you trade Corcino straight up for Eaton?

No.

Az. Reds Fan
07-05-2012, 06:07 PM
Nice article about Eaton...kid's a player and he's got Brett Butlers stamp of approval

http://www.foxsportsarizona.com/07/05/12/Eaton-hitting-running-through-D-backs-sy/landing_dbacks.html?blockID=756676&feedID=3607

RedlegJake
07-05-2012, 06:09 PM
Would you trade Corcino straight up for Eaton?

Yes.

RedlegJake
07-05-2012, 06:10 PM
The Reds have a large number of high quality young starting prospects. Ordinarily I'd say no - a good pitcher for a good position polayer. Nope. But in this case with the Reds so thin at upper levels I'd say yes. Plus I really like this kid Eaton.

Vottomatic
07-05-2012, 06:28 PM
I'm not sure I'd trade Corcino for Eaton either. But I'm perplexed by the Reds lack of quality outfield prospects.

camisadelgolf
07-05-2012, 06:33 PM
I'm not sure I'd trade Corcino for Eaton either. But I'm perplexed by the Reds lack of quality outfield prospects.
They drafted 4 outfielders over the first 9 rounds of the draft, so I think they tried to address that. Kyle Waldrop was very raw when he signed, but he has made a lot of progress. Ryan LaMarre may not be all that flashy, but he has been consistently good at every level. I realize people are in a hurry to trade for a Stubbs replacement, but the Reds' best option for that might be in AA right now.

j_m_t_us
07-05-2012, 06:36 PM
I'm not sure I'd trade Corcino for Eaton either. But I'm perplexed by the Reds lack of quality outfield prospects.

You're perplexed huh... I think they have a bunch of good outfield prospects coming up! Maybe you need to look a little harder!!!!

RedlegJake
07-05-2012, 07:06 PM
You're perplexed huh... I think they have a bunch of good outfield prospects coming up! Maybe you need to look a little harder!!!!

No startling prospects. Some decent ones, yes. I'm not overly excited about any of them.

LaMarre and Fellhauer - look 4th outfielder or adequate if need be starters to me. I see somewhere between Stubbs and Heisey if that.

Waldrop and Lutz look better. Still none of them tend to make think All Star or hurry up and get here! Lutz could really break out, though, if he starts whomping the long ball like I think he can.

Hamilton as a CFer is the only one that makes me think what if..?

The best prospects are the guys just drafted, imo.

Vottomatic
07-07-2012, 02:16 PM
You're perplexed huh... I think they have a bunch of good outfield prospects coming up! Maybe you need to look a little harder!!!!

I have. And I'm talking about double A or triple A prospects. Not guys that are 2 to 4 years away.

j_m_t_us
07-07-2012, 05:10 PM
No startling prospects. Some decent ones, yes. I'm not overly excited about any of them.

LaMarre and Fellhauer - look 4th outfielder or adequate if need be starters to me. I see somewhere between Stubbs and Heisey if that.

Waldrop and Lutz look better. Still none of them tend to make think All Star or hurry up and get here! Lutz could really break out, though, if he starts whomping the long ball like I think he can.

Hamilton as a CFer is the only one that makes me think what if..?

The best prospects are the guys just drafted, imo.

Fellhauer I would agree is a 4th outfielder type player because he doesn't normally play when there's a left handed starting pitcher on the mound. I think though you are under estimating LaMarre. I see him as a future everyday center fielder whether it be with the Reds or with another team. Not sure what you don't like but this guy is the perfect prototype leadoff guy! There's an article out there today that was written about this on CincyHardball.com: "Could LaMarre Be a Future Leadoff Hitter? OF Steals Home in Pensacola Win"... I guess we will have to agree to disagree!

RedlegJake
07-07-2012, 07:09 PM
Fellhauer I would agree is a 4th outfielder type player because he doesn't normally play when there's a left handed starting pitcher on the mound. I think though you are under estimating LaMarre. I see him as a future everyday center fielder whether it be with the Reds or with another team. Not sure what you don't like but this guy is the perfect prototype leadoff guy! There's an article out there today that was written about this on CincyHardball.com: "Could LaMarre Be a Future Leadoff Hitter? OF Steals Home in Pensacola Win"... I guess we will have to agree to disagree!

I might be underestimating LaMarre a bit and I do like him better than Fellhauer, and I like Bryson Smith, too, but all are 2 years away anyway. Maybe the end of next year. Anything else is really rushing them.

Ohayou
07-17-2012, 03:09 AM
Now his BA is up to .391... :shocked:

11larkin11
07-18-2012, 02:55 AM
Wow. Played against him in High School a lot, never figured he'd make it this far, but just goes to show how hard he must work. He was apart of a lot of underrated, good Kenton Ridge teams that wouldn't win the conference but would end up in the Final Four every year.

Same high school as former Reds Rick White, Dave Burba, and Dustin Hermanson. Hey, the only 3 guys in that school's history to make the majors have been in the Reds org. at some point, why not add Adam in?

MikeS21
07-18-2012, 09:46 AM
Fellhauer I would agree is a 4th outfielder type player because he doesn't normally play when there's a left handed starting pitcher on the mound. I think though you are under estimating LaMarre. I see him as a future everyday center fielder whether it be with the Reds or with another team. Not sure what you don't like but this guy is the perfect prototype leadoff guy! There's an article out there today that was written about this on CincyHardball.com: "Could LaMarre Be a Future Leadoff Hitter? OF Steals Home in Pensacola Win"... I guess we will have to agree to disagree!
I've kept my eye on LaMarre's stats because I wondered if he could be Drew Stubbs' replacement in a couple years.

The only tool LaMarre is lacking is power, but he had average power in college and then broke his wrist not long before he was drafted. (If it weren't for the wrist, he might have gone higher in the draft). It sometimes takes 2-3 years for power to return after an injury like that. If LaMarre can give you a .330 OBP, 20 SB's, and give you 10-15 HR's to boot, that would be a decent upgrade. LeMarre will give you better than average defense in CF.

Patrick Bateman
07-18-2012, 10:36 AM
Everything I have read suggests that even with his nice season he is more of a 4th OF type that his overall skill package is not sufficient to be an above average starting OF. PCL does some crazy things to hitters.

I wouldn't even consider trading a much much more highly regarded prospect in Corcino for him.

RedlegJake
07-18-2012, 04:13 PM
Everything I have read suggests that even with his nice season he is more of a 4th OF type that his overall skill package is not sufficient to be an above average starting OF. PCL does some crazy things to hitters.

I wouldn't even consider trading a much much more highly regarded prospect in Corcino for him.

Scouts are downgrading him mostly because he profiles as a leftfielder without power. Automatic ten points off or whatever. He has everything else. Plus he's hit at every level. What he's doing at the PCL definitely needs to be tampered down but I look at Pioneer, Cal, PCL by looking at their comps across the league rather than the raw numbers. He is still very, very high ranking. I'd trade straight up as I said ONLY because the Reds lack immediate help in the outfield. If they had immediate options of their own then I would not. I'd much rather find a center fielder who can lead off and a left fielder who can hit cleanup. Plus I don't want to trust a rookie in a pennant race.

Ohayou
07-18-2012, 07:19 PM
Regardless of where he's playing, those numbers are still very impressive (especially for a 23 year old).

Patrick Bateman
07-18-2012, 07:52 PM
Scouts are downgrading him mostly because he profiles as a leftfielder without power. Automatic ten points off or whatever. He has everything else. Plus he's hit at every level. What he's doing at the PCL definitely needs to be tampered down but I look at Pioneer, Cal, PCL by looking at their comps across the league rather than the raw numbers. He is still very, very high ranking. I'd trade straight up as I said ONLY because the Reds lack immediate help in the outfield. If they had immediate options of their own then I would not. I'd much rather find a center fielder who can lead off and a left fielder who can hit cleanup. Plus I don't want to trust a rookie in a pennant race.

There are so few left fielders that can be successful without a semblance of power. It just seems like a huge compromise to trade a top prospect for a guy with the foundation of flaws, even if he does make the most of his talents.

Vottomatic
07-19-2012, 05:03 PM
(Sarcasm alert) Yeah, who needs guys who can hit singles and doubles and get on base alot. Let's trade for some more guys who simply hit an occasional home run or strikeout alot. They'd fit in well.

dougdirt
07-19-2012, 05:09 PM
(Sarcasm alert) Yeah, who needs guys who can hit singles and doubles and get on base alot. Let's trade for some more guys who simply hit an occasional home run or strikeout alot. They'd fit in well.

I don't think anyone was saying that.

But guys who can hit singles and doubles a lot but not home runs are generally easier to find than guys who can hit for power.

Eaton has played at an absolute launching pad for every stop along the way except for in AA. He hit .302 and slugged .409 there. Is he any different than Henry Rodriguez, who we already control? Aside from the whole position thing of course.

I doubt many teams are out there beating our doors down for HRod.

Mario-Rijo
07-19-2012, 05:30 PM
I don't think anyone was saying that.

But guys who can hit singles and doubles a lot but not home runs are generally easier to find than guys who can hit for power.

Eaton has played at an absolute launching pad for every stop along the way except for in AA. He hit .302 and slugged .409 there. Is he any different than Henry Rodriguez, who we already control? Aside from the whole position thing of course.

I doubt many teams are out there beating our doors down for HRod.

True but Henry isn't from "Da Field"! Come on down Eaton it's been too long since one of our own was playing in "Da Natty".

:thumbup:

Patrick Bateman
07-19-2012, 05:36 PM
(Sarcasm alert) Yeah, who needs guys who can hit singles and doubles and get on base alot. Let's trade for some more guys who simply hit an occasional home run or strikeout alot. They'd fit in well.

You have to be going out of your way to misinterpret my posts at this point.

If Eaton is an exception and can get on base 36-37% of the time he'll likely be an asset. However, it is very difficult to do that consistently without being able to be a decent power threat. Considering he plays in LF, he's going to need to get on base a bunch to be very useful, and that transition can be very difficult to the majors.

RedlegJake
07-19-2012, 06:04 PM
Eaton is going to be a decent player with a good OBP imo but he'll always struggle to find PT because he just doesn't slot well into offenses. LF has always been a power place. That isn't going to change unless Eaton can be a really top shelf over achiever - like a Batting champion type. I don't think he's THAT good. I agree with Doug - he's very HRod but in left field. Earlier in the year before Ludwick started hitting I was desperate for the Reds, now I'm less so. I like Eaton a lot but were does he play? If he can OBP .350-.360 he could play left but as I said before do you trust a rookie to immediately step in and do that? When the Reds already have 2 full time rookies? And Votto changes things, too. Frazier on first we may see HRod come up at some point - another rookie. As the season has progressed Eaton's profile fits less and less well into the Reds. I don't like him any less as a player - he just fits less well as the season has changed things.

Vottomatic
07-19-2012, 09:41 PM
You have to be going out of your way to misinterpret my posts at this point.

If Eaton is an exception and can get on base 36-37% of the time he'll likely be an asset. However, it is very difficult to do that consistently without being able to be a decent power threat. Considering he plays in LF, he's going to need to get on base a bunch to be very useful, and that transition can be very difficult to the majors.

Just because my post was right after yours doesn't mean I was responding to you. If I was responding to you, I would have quoted you.

I was responding to the thread. As I am now.

H-Rod has the same problem. All he does is hit and get on base, but because he doesn't have much power, some if not many people dismiss him. My feeling is we need more .300+ hitters with good OBP's rather than .240 hitters with decent but not league leading power.

Hal Morris wasn't a home run hitter. But he was on base alot. And he played a traditionally power oriented position.

I'm just tired of having to win by the long ball all of the time. I'd like to see more guys on base wreaking havoc.

I'd love to see a few H-Rod's and Adam Eaton's in the lineup, if they could carry their minor league career good hitting to the majors. Maybe they're not the exact answer, but we need more major leaguers with numbers like their minor league careers so far.

dougdirt
07-19-2012, 09:51 PM
I'm just tired of having to win by the long ball all of the time. I'd like to see more guys on base wreaking havoc.

I'd love to see a few H-Rod's and Adam Eaton's in the lineup, if they could carry their minor league career good hitting to the majors. Maybe they're not the exact answer, but we need more major leaguers with numbers like their minor league careers so far.

I think we all would like to see that. But for every guy who hits like Rodriguez/Eaton in the minors, 8 of them can't do it in the Majors.

The Reds line up is flawed. It has to 'rely on the long ball' because it simply doesn't have that many good hitters in the line up. Zack Cozart, Drew Stubbs, Brandon Phillips, Ryan Hanigan.... none of those guys should be counted on for 20 home runs. Only one of them has shown an actual ability to get on base better than average though. I would love to fill the line up with guys who could hit .290 and OBP .350. But those guys are rare breeds. From 2010-Now, with 1000 at bats in that time frame, there are all of 23 players in baseball who have hit .290 and had a .350 OBP. Two of them aren't power hitters (sub .450 SLG). Joe Mauer and Jon Jay. 14 of them have slugged over .500

camisadelgolf
07-19-2012, 10:08 PM
I think we all would like to see that. But for every guy who hits like Rodriguez/Eaton in the minors, 8 of them can't do it in the Majors.
Do you have data to back this up? Is it really 1 in 9? I'm just wondering.

dougdirt
07-19-2012, 10:16 PM
Do you have data to back this up? Is it really 1 in 9? I'm just wondering.

Totally pie in the sky pulled it out of my left ear number.

Vottomatic
07-20-2012, 08:05 AM
I think we all would like to see that. But for every guy who hits like Rodriguez/Eaton in the minors, 8 of them can't do it in the Majors.



8? How do you know it's not 7 or 6? :D

Patrick Bateman
07-20-2012, 10:42 AM
Just because my post was right after yours doesn't mean I was responding to you. If I was responding to you, I would have quoted you.


There are literally no other posts besides mine that your comment could have applied to. To that point in the thread I was about the only one who posted a criticism of Eaton.

Mario-Rijo
07-20-2012, 01:38 PM
I think we all would like to see that. But for every guy who hits like Rodriguez/Eaton in the minors, 8 of them can't do it in the Majors.

The Reds line up is flawed. It has to 'rely on the long ball' because it simply doesn't have that many good hitters in the line up. Zack Cozart, Drew Stubbs, Brandon Phillips, Ryan Hanigan.... none of those guys should be counted on for 20 home runs. Only one of them has shown an actual ability to get on base better than average though. I would love to fill the line up with guys who could hit .290 and OBP .350. But those guys are rare breeds. From 2010-Now, with 1000 at bats in that time frame, there are all of 23 players in baseball who have hit .290 and had a .350 OBP. Two of them aren't power hitters (sub .450 SLG). Joe Mauer and Jon Jay. 14 of them have slugged over .500

More .270/.340/.420 guys would be more than acceptable. Mainly though only if they can play some defense. The Chase Headleys of the world. A little balance please.

Vottomatic
07-20-2012, 02:18 PM
There are literally no other posts besides mine that your comment could have applied to. To that point in the thread I was about the only one who posted a criticism of Eaton.

Geez dude. Why does it matter so much? :confused:

I've been on the idea of getting some high OBP guys who hit for average for awhile now. Maybe my post was simply a thought I was having at the time and not so much a response to any posts in the thread. :thumbup:

RedlegJake
07-20-2012, 02:29 PM
I love Eaton specifically because he is a different kind of hitter and I'd personally love to see if he could do it at the major league level (high OBP, doubles power) BUT I just think its a huge risk in a pennant race to ask a rookie to jump in and not expect him to struggle at first even if he does get there eventually. I'd rather see someone who has proven he can do it at this point. I really think baseball will start turning to guys like Eaton and we'll begin seeing more high OBP guys again - the Carews and Motas and Sanguillens and Alous. The screw has turned for the big sluggers at the exclusion of all else. They'll always have their place but as pitching regains dominance the running game, speed, and swat hitters who just get on base a lot will also find a welcome role in baseball. Playing for 1 run and holding on is already surfacing in games and small ball strategies are being used more often - maybe better informed by percentages but still more often than the past couple of decades. Hamilton will help usher in the next generation of base stealers too, I'll bet. Wouldn't surprise me if Eaton didn't help usher in the next generation of Gwynn like left and right fielders who aren't power hitters but pesky get on base types, especially on teams that get power from middle infielders and their catcher or center fielder - non traditional power positions.

So don't be in such a hurry to downgrade guys just because they lack power. I would not call that a "foundational flaw". Not if they can get on base at a very high clip. Personally, if my leadoff hitter gets on base at a .375 or better clip I don't care if he ever hits a home run.

dougdirt
07-20-2012, 03:16 PM
So don't be in such a hurry to downgrade guys just because they lack power. I would not call that a "foundational flaw". Not if they can get on base at a very high clip. Personally, if my leadoff hitter gets on base at a .375 or better clip I don't care if he ever hits a home run.

In a game where guys are throwing much harder than ever before, slap hitting isn't exactly as "easy" as it once was. A few guys can do it, but counting on someone to be able to do it before they actually show it at the MLB level is probably a bad idea.

klw
07-20-2012, 05:13 PM
In a game where guys are throwing much harder than ever before, slap hitting isn't exactly as "easy" as it once was. A few guys can do it, but counting on someone to be able to do it before they actually show it at the MLB level is probably a bad idea.

I hear the term "slap hitting" and I immediately always think of this baseball card from my youth.
http://www.ultimatemets.com/jpeg/FelixMillan1976.jpg

Vottomatic
07-20-2012, 05:31 PM
I never get that comment about guys throwing harder than they ever were before. They were throwing just as hard back in the 50's, 60's, 70's and 80's.

Vottomatic
07-20-2012, 05:36 PM
I think Eaton is a guy to pursue in the offseason.

dougdirt
07-20-2012, 07:33 PM
I never get that comment about guys throwing harder than they ever were before. They were throwing just as hard back in the 50's, 60's, 70's and 80's.
No, they weren't.

RiverRat13
07-21-2012, 04:48 PM
Has anyone read where Eaton can't stick in center?

RiverRat13
07-21-2012, 04:59 PM
Wow. Played against him in High School a lot, never figured he'd make it this far, but just goes to show how hard he must work. He was apart of a lot of underrated, good Kenton Ridge teams that wouldn't win the conference but would end up in the Final Four every year.


The CBC was a very strong DII baseball conference during your era.

Vottomatic
07-22-2012, 10:40 PM
No, they weren't.

Whatever dude. My Dad and grandpa say you're wrong.

But since they didn't have the radar guns and all the stats they keep today, you're in the clear on your comments. :laugh:

I dunno what is about today's younger generation dissing other generations so badly. It's like Kobe and Lebron dissing the Dream Team. Heck, the Dream Team was '92, but I was in Bloomington back in 1984 to see the earlier version olympic tryouts, and that team was pretty darn good.

dougdirt
07-22-2012, 10:48 PM
Whatever dude. My Dad and grandpa say you're wrong.

But since they didn't have the radar guns and all the stats they keep today, you're in the clear on your comments. :laugh:

Your dad and grandpa were wrong. Players will tell you that. I have a friend who is a scout. He is in his early 50's. When he was younger, well before he was scouting, he talked with Waite Hoyte, who played in the Majors, then of course broadcast games for a long time after his playing days were done. Hoye talked about how when he played that most pitchers were topping out at 85 MPH by the time August rolled around because of how often they were used and they simply didn't have any gas left. He also noted that as time went on that guys did throw a little bit harder in general than the guys before them.

I remember being younger, watching games on ESPN. They had radar guns. They didn't like up like they do now. Yes, some guys could do what a lot of guys can no, but most couldn't. Scouting still holds onto the idea that 89 MPH is average for a lefty and 90 is average for a righty. Really? When a guy throws 90 as a RHP these days he is a soft tosser, like Mike Leake.

Vottomatic
07-22-2012, 10:54 PM
Your dad and grandpa were wrong. Players will tell you that. I have a friend who is a scout. He is in his early 50's. When he was younger, well before he was scouting, he talked with Waite Hoyte, who played in the Majors, then of course broadcast games for a long time after his playing days were done. Hoye talked about how when he played that most pitchers were topping out at 85 MPH by the time August rolled around because of how often they were used and they simply didn't have any gas left. He also noted that as time went on that guys did throw a little bit harder in general than the guys before them.

I remember being younger, watching games on ESPN. They had radar guns. They didn't like up like they do now. Yes, some guys could do what a lot of guys can no, but most couldn't. Scouting still holds onto the idea that 89 MPH is average for a lefty and 90 is average for a righty. Really? When a guy throws 90 as a RHP these days he is a soft tosser, like Mike Leake.

You're always disrespecting other generations. I'm just saying I'd be careful about it because it comes across as obvious disrespect and condescending to us old timers.

You'll never convince me that Kobe or Lebron are better than Jordan was. Saw it with my own eyes. And I saw plenty of pitchers hitting in the mid-90's back in the 70's and 80's. It's not like suddenly every pitcher became superman and can throw 100+.

But we'll just agree to disagree.

Edit: By the way, my next door neighbor growing up pitched in the minors for a bunch of years. He met his wife after she dated Jim O'Toole. I've heard plenty of stories that again would disagree with some of your comments. But we can just agree to disagree.

dougdirt
07-22-2012, 11:01 PM
You're always disrespecting other generations. I'm just saying I'd be careful about it because it comes across as obvious disrespect and condescending to us old timers.

You'll never convince me that Kobe or Lebron are better than Jordan was. Saw it with my own eyes. And I saw plenty of pitchers hitting in the mid-90's back in the 70's and 80's. It's not like suddenly every pitcher became superman and can throw 100+.

But we'll just agree to disagree.

Edit: By the way, my next door neighbor growing up pitched in the minors for a bunch of years. He met his wife after she dated Jim O'Toole. I've heard plenty of stories that again would disagree with some of your comments. But we can just agree to disagree.

Kobe and LeBron might not be better than Jordan. But the #3 guy on every team now is better than the #3 guy on every team then. Simply looking at superstars doesn't really work. Those guys were the freaks among freaks. Look at the average 'freak' and they simply aren't as physically gifted as the average 'freak' in the next generation. It is just evolution due to training and better nutrition. That isn't disrespect, it is just a fact. Burying your head in the sand doesn't make it different.

camisadelgolf
07-23-2012, 02:37 AM
Vottomatic, do you have any data to back up what you're saying? The radar guns disagree with you.

Mario-Rijo
07-23-2012, 04:04 PM
That isn't disrespect, it is just a fact. Burying your head in the sand doesn't make it different.

#Respectful or not?

Patrick Bateman
07-23-2012, 04:08 PM
Kobe and LeBron might not be better than Jordan. But the #3 guy on every team now is better than the #3 guy on every team then. Simply looking at superstars doesn't really work. Those guys were the freaks among freaks. Look at the average 'freak' and they simply aren't as physically gifted as the average 'freak' in the next generation. It is just evolution due to training and better nutrition. That isn't disrespect, it is just a fact. Burying your head in the sand doesn't make it different.

I don't think people like calling these facts.

They aren't. It is a very well educated hypothesis that is logical.

But it wont be fact until we actually can put Jay Bruce back in time and play in the 1980's. Because we can't, this will never be a 100% factual discussion. At the same time, I think the logic present and the sprinter metaphors ou have provided are a good foundation for an argument, but if he disagrees, he has every right to, as again, we will never be able to line these guys up at the same time.

RedlegJake
07-23-2012, 04:53 PM
You'll never convince me Ryne Duren and Sandy Koufax and Jim Maloney didn't throw as fast as these guys do today. Even Cy Young and Lefty Grove and Walter Johnson. However, that said, I agree that the level of the average player has risen in each generation in terms of athleticism. I disagree that being able to slap hits is that much harder because guys throw faster. Sure - guys aren't going to hit .400 again but that doesn't mean that choking up and letting the pitcher deliver the power while you control the bat rather than swinging as hard as you can from the knob end won't work. Matty Alou, Rod Carew and Pete Rose were just a generation past and guys were throwing very nearly as hard as they do now - and relief specialists were being used. It isn't because of pitchers that slap hitters, stealing, and Alou type hitters went out of style - it was because of the steroids era! Now, more and more guys are hitting 100 on the gun. Once that becomes fairly common - maybe ten or twenty years - I don't know if anyone will be hitting but they'll probably make another rule change to help hitters then. Right now the balance is about perfect. If it gets any lower scoring then the fans will start going away. The running game, the slap hitters, the station to station game will become important again BECAUSE pitchers become dominant, Doug, not the other way around. Anyway - you will disagree but we'll just have to wait a few seasons to see how this unfolds. I believe pitchers are going to be more and more dominant and hitters are going to go more and more to running, small ball, get on base singes guys and a couple sluggers in the middle because there are only going to be a few guys really capable of hitting for average and power as pitching dominates.

dougdirt
07-23-2012, 05:00 PM
You'll never convince me Ryne Duren and Sandy Koufax and Jim Maloney didn't throw as fast as these guys do today. Even Cy Young and Lefty Grove and Walter Johnson. However, that said, I agree that the level of the average player has risen in each generation in terms of athleticism. I disagree that being able to slap hits is that much harder because guys throw faster. Sure - guys aren't going to hit .400 again but that doesn't mean that choking up and letting the pitcher deliver the power while you control the bat rather than swinging as hard as you can from the knob end won't work. Matty Alou, Rod Carew and Pete Rose were just a generation past and guys were throwing very nearly as hard as they do now - and relief specialists were being used. It isn't because of pitchers that slap hitters, stealing, and Alou type hitters went out of style - it was because of the steroids era! Now, more and more guys are hitting 100 on the gun. Once that becomes fairly common - maybe ten or twenty years - I don't know if anyone will be hitting but they'll probably make another rule change to help hitters then. Right now the balance is about perfect. If it gets any lower scoring then the fans will start going away. The running game, the slap hitters, the station to station game will become important again BECAUSE pitchers become dominant, Doug, not the other way around. Anyway - you will disagree but we'll just have to wait a few seasons to see how this unfolds. I believe pitchers are going to be more and more dominant and hitters are going to go more and more to running, small ball, get on base singes guys and a couple sluggers in the middle because there are only going to be a few guys really capable of hitting for average and power as pitching dominates.

The pitcher delivering the power is a myth. The same bat speed on a 60 and 65 MPH pitch is going to add just 5 feet further to the ball. But a bat speed increase of 5 MPH on a 60 MPH pitch is going to add 25 feet to the ball.

camisadelgolf
07-23-2012, 05:21 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias

RedlegJake
07-25-2012, 04:50 PM
LOL...thats the second time in a debate you've shown me that link camisa - are you trying to tell me I'm an old guy set in his ways?

camisadelgolf
07-25-2012, 07:38 PM
LOL...thats the second time in a debate you've shown me that link camisa - are you trying to tell me I'm an old guy set in his ways?
A little bit. It's good to have examples for your argument, but sometimes they're more the exception than the rule. Players are throwing harder, and there's plenty of data to support that. However, that isn't meant to say that there haven't been players who threw as hard or harder than players do today.

Vottomatic
07-25-2012, 08:47 PM
I'll give that maybe there are more guys throwing harder. But it doesn't mean that alot of guys in the 60's, 70's and 80's weren't throwing that hard.

I just think every young guy tends to discard previous generations like they weren't as good and I get tired of hearing it over and over. It's very disrespectful.

camisadelgolf
07-25-2012, 08:57 PM
I'll give that maybe there are more guys throwing harder. But it doesn't mean that alot of guys in the 60's, 70's and 80's weren't throwing that hard.

I just think every young guy tends to discard previous generations like they weren't as good and I get tired of hearing it over and over. It's very disrespectful.
I don't think anyone said people back in the '80s and earlier weren't throwing that hard. Nolan Ryan pitched in the '60s for crying out loud. But on the whole, I don't think there's any denying that the average Major League pitcher throws harder than ever.

dougdirt
07-25-2012, 09:25 PM
I'll give that maybe there are more guys throwing harder. But it doesn't mean that alot of guys in the 60's, 70's and 80's weren't throwing that hard.

I just think every young guy tends to discard previous generations like they weren't as good and I get tired of hearing it over and over. It's very disrespectful.

And in general, they are right, at least when it comes to athletics. We are bigger, faster, quicker and stronger as a whole today than we have ever been before. And we keep getting more of those things with each generation. It isn't disrespectful, it is simply science at work. We have better supplements, training equipment and training activities that makes us better at those things than ever before (as a whole).

Ohayou
07-25-2012, 09:46 PM
Goodness me, this is not a question of skill. It's called training, nutrition and equipment. That is what separates today's athletes from previous generations.

RedlegJake
07-26-2012, 03:00 PM
A little bit. It's good to have examples for your argument, but sometimes they're more the exception than the rule. Players are throwing harder, and there's plenty of data to support that. However, that isn't meant to say that there haven't been players who threw as hard or harder than players do today.

But Camisa - I agreed with that 100% if you'll re-read my post. I said the generations as a whole get faster and stronger- but there were always exceptional athletes who could cross generations and play in any time period. We are reaching a point where that might not be true for the earliest eras any longer. Not totally, but almost. I mean would George Wright still be a superior athlete if he was competing today? I tend to think he would be fairly average if that good. In the 1860s he was the epitome of an athlete. I don;t disagree with Doug at all. I just think a single generation isn't as big a difference overall as he seems to think - we disagree more in degree than substance.

camisadelgolf
07-26-2012, 04:47 PM
But Camisa - I agreed with that 100% if you'll re-read my post. I said the generations as a whole get faster and stronger- but there were always exceptional athletes who could cross generations and play in any time period. We are reaching a point where that might not be true for the earliest eras any longer. Not totally, but almost. I mean would George Wright still be a superior athlete if he was competing today? I tend to think he would be fairly average if that good. In the 1860s he was the epitome of an athlete. I don;t disagree with Doug at all. I just think a single generation isn't as big a difference overall as he seems to think - we disagree more in degree than substance.
Ah, okay. Sorry about that. You typed a lot of words, and my attention span only lets me skim. In that case, I probably agree with you. I guess I was still responding to Vottomatic's argument more than anything else.

RiverRat13
07-26-2012, 05:41 PM
If I said Adam Eaton is a throwback player, would that satisfy everyone on this thread?

dougdirt
07-26-2012, 05:51 PM
Depends what you mean when you say a throwback.

Vottomatic
07-26-2012, 08:59 PM
If I said Adam Eaton is a throwback player, would that satisfy everyone on this thread?

That dependson what the meaning of "is" is. ;)

Az. Reds Fan
09-04-2012, 04:11 PM
The Dbacks have recalled Adam Eaton, he will be playing centerfield and batting leadoff tonight against the Giants.

Az. Reds Fan
09-04-2012, 04:59 PM
The Dbacks have recalled Adam Eaton, he will be playing centerfield and batting leadoff tonight against the Giants.

Vottomatic
09-04-2012, 11:58 PM
The Dbacks have recalled Adam Eaton, he will be playing centerfield and batting leadoff tonight against the Giants.

It's like deja vu all over again. ;) :p

Vottomatic
09-05-2012, 12:01 AM
Eaton hit for the cycle tonight, scored 4 runs, knocked in 5, stole 3 bases.

Just kidding. He's 1-3 with a double and a run scored.

Gregorius and Stubbs for Eaton and a prospect.

CySeymour
09-05-2012, 09:16 AM
Eaton hit for the cycle tonight, scored 4 runs, knocked in 5, stole 3 bases.

Just kidding. He's 1-3 with a double and a run scored.

Gregorius and Stubbs for Eaton and a prospect.


Why in the world would Arizona even consider that trade?

Vottomatic
09-05-2012, 12:11 PM
Why in the world would Arizona even consider that trade?

They already inquired about Gregorius. They traded Stephen Drew and are seeking a major league ready prospect.

I can't see anyone on the D-Backs roster I'd trade for or want to give up the farm for (Upton). Eaton is a high OBP CF with little power but good speed.

CySeymour
09-05-2012, 12:15 PM
They already inquired about Gregorius. They traded Stephen Drew and are seeking a major league ready prospect.

I can't see anyone on the D-Backs roster I'd trade for or want to give up the farm for (Upton). Eaton is a high OBP CF with little power but good speed.

I just don't see them giving up Eaton for him. Plus, Stubbs just doesn't seem like a Kirk Gibson type of player.

Az. Reds Fan
09-05-2012, 12:35 PM
The Dbacks actually already have a Stubbs of their own, his name is Chris Young, and he'll be run out of town this off season, if they can pawn him off on somebody.

Assuming Eaton plays well the rest of the season, I would expect him to be the Dbacks opening day centerfielder in 2013.

Vottomatic
09-18-2012, 11:10 PM
Small sample size. 40 major league at-bats, .275 average, .396 OBP.

First 5 games were all multi-hit games. Didn't get a hit in the next 13 at-bats, but only struck out once in that stretch with 4 walks. 8 walks total, and only 4 K's in 40 at-bats. 1 stolen base.

Small sample size, but I'd put money on it right now he's going to be a solid leadoff guy.

Wish the Reds would have tried to acquire him.

Ohayou
09-19-2012, 12:54 AM
OBP up to .423.