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RedsfaninMT
07-01-2012, 01:21 PM
But no Cueto? Nah, no bias from LaRussa.

kaldaniels
07-01-2012, 01:23 PM
Cueto did not make it.

dougdirt
07-01-2012, 01:29 PM
Given the current pitching schedule, would Cueto even be able to pitch in the game? If not, perhaps that is why he wasn't selected.

BCubb2003
07-01-2012, 01:31 PM
Cueto wasn't likely to pitch. Still deserved the pick. So did Phillips.

oregonred
07-01-2012, 01:31 PM
Well at least Phillips and Cueto will have a chip on their shoulder. A joke as they deserved a slot, but not the worst thing in the world as a Reds fan...

kaldaniels
07-01-2012, 01:32 PM
I'm not too bothered by this. Only so many spots to go around.

powersackers
07-01-2012, 01:33 PM
Hoping Phillips is a final five choice. They've announced Chipper and Harper as two of the five on the selection show.

RedsfaninMT
07-01-2012, 01:33 PM
I'm not too bothered by this. Only so many spots to go around.

Lance Lynn DOES NOT deserve to be an All Star. Only so many spots, but that choice is pathetic.

BCubb2003
07-01-2012, 01:34 PM
And after everyone is picked, players start begging off, and they scramble to find fill-ins. Like Rolen, was it last year?

RedsfaninMT
07-01-2012, 01:35 PM
And after everyone is picked, players start begging off, and they scramble to find fill-ins. Like Rolen, was it last year?

I think players can no longer beg off - only injury absences are allowed.

Kc61
07-01-2012, 01:36 PM
Bruce and Chappy made it. Cueto is punishment for the fight. Phillips probably a need to accomodate somebody else.

kaldaniels
07-01-2012, 01:36 PM
Lance Lynn DOES NOT deserve to be an All Star. Only so many spots, but that choice is pathetic.

Agreed. I was speaking of Cueto and BP being left off.

cincrazy
07-01-2012, 01:37 PM
I still think it's a joke. To me, this just shows how petty LaRussa is. It's not the end of the world, but Phillips is the best 2B in the NL, and Cueto is having one of the best seasons of any SP. An absolute joke they're left off.

BCubb2003
07-01-2012, 01:37 PM
Bruce and Chappy made it. Cueto is punishment for the fight. Phillips probably a need to accomodate somebody else.

There seems to a spike in aches and pains around this time.

LvJ
07-01-2012, 01:44 PM
Lance Lynn is a joke. No Cueto is a joke. Phillips is the best 2nd basemen in the league.

However, I'm not too bad. It's pretty rad having at least 5 All Star caliber players on this team. 3 is good, 5 should be there, but hey! Can't complain.

LvJ
07-01-2012, 01:50 PM
James McDonald deserved it more than Lynn.

RedsfaninMT
07-01-2012, 01:51 PM
James McDonald deserved it more than Lynn.

A LOT of pitchers deserved it above Lynn...Vogelsong would be another.

powersackers
07-01-2012, 01:53 PM
The fans that didn't vote 25 times for Phillips are to blame. Uggla should not have won. I did my part. Did all of you?

LvJ
07-01-2012, 01:54 PM
A LOT of pitchers deserved it above Lynn...Vogelsong would be another.

Yep. I guess that's what you get for winning the WS. Biased selections of your own mediocre players!

Kc61
07-01-2012, 01:55 PM
David Wright didn't make the starting team. I haven't checked the stats lately, but that seems like the biggest joke of all time. Wright having a near-Votto type season as I recall.

My annoyance about Cueto and Phillips is reduced by the inclusion of Bruce and Chapman. I see Altuve made it at second base, I can live with that. Cueto? We all know he deserved it more than Chapman, but Aroldis is a big attraction. Whatever.

Let's beat the Giants today. They have three all star starters so they must be a great team. Let's beat them anyway.

dougdirt
07-01-2012, 01:57 PM
The fans that didn't vote 25 times for Phillips are to blame. Uggla should not have won. I did my part. Did all of you?

Dan Uggla 2.4 WAR
Brandon Phillips 2.3 WAR

757690
07-01-2012, 02:02 PM
There actually hve been worse same team manager picks than Lynn in the past. Happens every year.

All-Star game is joke and has been for around 30 years. It used to mean something, but not anymore. Pure TV exhibition for the casual fan and non-fan. I rarely watch it anymore. Could care less what happens in it.

dougdirt
07-01-2012, 02:04 PM
There actually hve been worse same team manager picks than Lynn in the past. Happens every year.

All-Star game is joke and has been for around 30 years. It used to mean something, but not anymore. Pure TV exhibition for the casual fan and non-fan. I rarely watch it anymore. Could care less what happens in it.

But it actually does mean something now and in the past it never actually did, even if you wanted to believe it did.

BCubb2003
07-01-2012, 02:06 PM
Sam LeCure tweeted:


Personally, along with Johnny and BP, I feel I got snubbed for the all star game. Those other guys maybe a bit more than me... #seriously?

Kc61
07-01-2012, 02:08 PM
Sam LeCure tweeted:

Glad to see Sam has a sense of humor.

The selection of Altuve over Phillips makes some sense, I guess, since the Reds already had three guys.

But it also shows how little interest baseball has in promoting defense. Phillips is a magician at second base, one of the very best I've ever seen. Even now, when he is a bit older, he is sensational defensively.

He still wins Gold Gloves, which recognizes him, but MLB isn't that interested. Not even a top five vote candidate.

757690
07-01-2012, 02:11 PM
But it actually does mean something now and in the past it never actually did, even if you wanted to believe it did.

That's the irony of the situation.

They used to play and manage it like it meant something. Many starting position players played nine innings, or at least most of the game. Now the only goal is to get everyone into the game.

It might technically mean something, but they don't play and manage like it means something. The fact that it determines home field advantage in the World Series is a joke.

dougdirt
07-01-2012, 02:14 PM
Well, I will agree with the last part there. It is a joke. Unfortunately, none of us get to laugh.

cincrazy
07-01-2012, 02:14 PM
If the Reds were the Yankees, rest assured a way would have been found to get all five deserving players on the team, or at least in the final vote.

cincrazy
07-01-2012, 02:15 PM
Per Danny Knobler of CBS Sports, the players voted Lynn in, not LaRussa.

Superdude
07-01-2012, 02:19 PM
Dan Uggla 2.4 WAR
Brandon Phillips 2.3 WAR

So despite pretty comparable offensive numbers, Phillips trails Uggla in WAR? For being such a supposedly definitive stat, I feel like I never agree with WAR. Color me old fashioned I guess...or wary of small sample defensive statistics placing Dan Uggla within a stones throw of Brandon Phillips with the glove.

VR
07-01-2012, 02:25 PM
Bourn, Jones, Hill, Freese, Harper are your final 5.

dougdirt
07-01-2012, 02:36 PM
So despite pretty comparable offensive numbers, Phillips trails Uggla in WAR? For being such a supposedly definitive stat, I feel like I never agree with WAR. Color me old fashioned I guess...or wary of small sample defensive statistics placing Dan Uggla within a stones throw of Brandon Phillips with the glove.

I agree with you. Uggla has a 5 point OPS+ advantage and a bit more playing time. I just wanted to add something to the conversation that wasn't just a guy reaction.

Crumbley
07-01-2012, 02:36 PM
So despite pretty comparable offensive numbers, Phillips trails Uggla in WAR? For being such a supposedly definitive stat, I feel like I never agree with WAR. Color me old fashioned I guess...or wary of small sample defensive statistics placing Dan Uggla within a stones throw of Brandon Phillips with the glove.
No one can even agree on how it's calculated.

dougdirt
07-01-2012, 02:38 PM
No one can even agree on how it's calculated.

For Offense, Fangraphs WAR > BREF WAR

The reason is simple.... their defensive value system is based on a much better system.

jojo
07-01-2012, 02:42 PM
No one can even agree on how it's calculated.

Thats not true.

Tony Cloninger
07-01-2012, 02:43 PM
Dan Uggla 2.4 WAR
Brandon Phillips 2.3 WAR

Then it's a flawed stat. This guy just winds up and swings....a relic of the last decade of swing as hard as I can and not think about much else.
I know strikeouts are not supposed to hurt my feelings but I barely see him as an upgrade over Rob Deer was as a hitter.
Horrible defense.

jojo
07-01-2012, 02:45 PM
So despite pretty comparable offensive numbers, Phillips trails Uggla in WAR? For being such a supposedly definitive stat, I feel like I never agree with WAR. Color me old fashioned I guess...or wary of small sample defensive statistics placing Dan Uggla within a stones throw of Brandon Phillips with the glove.

For all practical purposes a .1 difference in WAR is not really significant. I think the point of comparing WAR between Phillips and Uggla is that its probably not accurate to suggest one deserved it but the other didn't (in this case, "no way Uggla!!!!!!).

Tony Cloninger
07-01-2012, 02:45 PM
I agree with you. Uggla has a 5 point OPS+ advantage and a bit more playing time. I just wanted to add something to the conversation that wasn't just a guy reaction.

Well I guess that is my reaction. I thought the Posey and Pablo Sandoval choices were bad.....but what did Uggla do to even deserve get that clear cut of votes as the 2nd Base AS.

alexad
07-01-2012, 02:49 PM
There actually hve been worse same team manager picks than Lynn in the past. Happens every year.

All-Star game is joke and has been for around 30 years. It used to mean something, but not anymore. Pure TV exhibition for the casual fan and non-fan. I rarely watch it anymore. Could care less what happens in it.

Totally agree. Cueto and rest and Phillips can get more healthy. Winning a gold glove and silver slugger means more. Let's face it. You can vote 25 times for a player. I remember the days you had to go to a ball game to get the only ballot. That is the way it should be done.

jojo
07-01-2012, 02:50 PM
Really if one want's to just go strictly by first half numbers, Aaron Hill should start for the NL at second.

DGullett35
07-01-2012, 02:52 PM
Cueto was robbed. Hopefully he uses this as motivation and dominates the rest of the season. Phillips deserved it too, however I think Cueto not making it was the biggest snub Reds wise. Clayton Kershaw made it and only has 5 wins this year. Chapman def. deserved it earlier in the year, and I thought is was cool of Bruce to make it.You can tell TLR had a big hand in who the reserves were.

dougdirt
07-01-2012, 02:52 PM
Then it's a flawed stat. This guy just winds up and swings....a relic of the last decade of swing as hard as I can and not think about much else.
I know strikeouts are not supposed to hurt my feelings but I barely see him as an upgrade over Rob Deer was as a hitter.
Horrible defense.

Brandon Phillips is the one who just goes up there and swings. He has 16 walks in 293 plate appearances. Dan Uggla has 51 walks this season.

dougdirt
07-01-2012, 02:54 PM
LaRussa did not pick a single Cardinal player. All Cardinals were either fan or player voted into the game.

Joseph
07-01-2012, 02:55 PM
LaRussa did not pick a single Cardinal player. All Cardinals were either fan or player voted into the game.

Don't try to trade the pitchforks and torches with facts. Frankenstein is a monster and the villagers need blood.

757690
07-01-2012, 02:57 PM
LaRussa did not pick a single Cardinal player. All Cardinals were either fan or player voted into the game.

I think the bigger LaRussa signature on this roster is leaving off Cueto and Phillips. Getting even for the 2010 brawl.

757690
07-01-2012, 03:00 PM
LaRussa did not pick a single Cardinal player. All Cardinals were either fan or player voted into the game.

Let's not kid ourselves. LaRussa would have picked Lynn, Furcal and Molina if given the chance.

dougdirt
07-01-2012, 03:00 PM
Johnny Cueto on his snub: "I don’t know what happened. I don’t if know the manager of All-Star Game is pissed at me because I went out with one of his girlfriends.”

http://cincinnati.com/blogs/reds/2012/07/01/reds-angered-by-snub-of-cueto-phillips/

Tony Cloninger
07-01-2012, 03:01 PM
My niece can create a bunch of e-mails and she is only 13. All it took was for some Techies in the Silicone Valley to lay off their wine tasting and create them. ;)

gonelong
07-01-2012, 03:13 PM
LaRussa did not pick a single Cardinal player. All Cardinals were either fan or player voted into the game.

Thanks for the info, I can return to my regular level of disdain for Tony LaRussa.

GL

Tony Cloninger
07-01-2012, 03:19 PM
Brandon Phillips is the one who just goes up there and swings. He has 16 walks in 293 plate appearances. Dan Uggla has 51 walks this season.

Thank you for correcting me. I did not realize that Uggla actually had that much patience.

Brutus
07-01-2012, 03:20 PM
Player (ERA, WHIP, K/BB, FIP, xFIP)

Cueto (2.26, 1.14, 6.6/2.1, 3.17, 3.77)
Lynn (3.62, 1.25, 9.1/3.2, 3.42, 3.48)

kaldaniels
07-01-2012, 03:22 PM
The human side (as opposed to my robot side) of me can understand TL holding a grudge against Cueto. Not saying I agree, but I do understand.

MikeThierry
07-01-2012, 03:25 PM
I can understand the outrage here but at the same time, Bruce got an All Star nod over Holliday. That's a joke right there.

Bruce WAR 1.4
Holliday War 2.7

It's not even close who's been the better player this year. Cueto deserved to go but so did Holliday. It balanced itself out.

As someone noted before, Lynn was a players vote anyway so I don't understand blaming LaRussa on this.

MikeThierry
07-01-2012, 03:27 PM
It should also be noted that with the SP, there might be a couple that can't pitch because of that rule. Cueto still has an outside shot of making it in.

kaldaniels
07-01-2012, 03:28 PM
I can understand the outrage here but at the same time, Bruce got an All Star nod over Holliday. That's a joke right there.

Bruce WAR 1.4
Holliday War 2.7

It's not even close who's been the better player this year. Cueto deserved to go but so did Holliday. It balanced itself out.

As someone noted before, Lynn was a players vote anyway so I don't understand blaming LaRussa on this.

Wonder what the reasoning is behind that? Wonder if Holiday requested not to be picked?

MikeThierry
07-01-2012, 03:29 PM
Wonder what the reasoning is behind that? Wonder if Holiday requested not to be picked?

I have no idea but it was the coaches vote from what I understand. Yes, TLR picked Bruce over Holliday. Head scratcher.

_Sir_Charles_
07-01-2012, 03:34 PM
Color me EXTREMELY surprised. I didn't think either Bruce or Aroldis would make it. But I assumed that Phillips & Cueto were locks. Wow. Oh well, at least they get extra rest.

_Sir_Charles_
07-01-2012, 03:37 PM
James McDonald deserved it more than Lynn.

Holy crap! McDonald didn't make it?!?

*dashes off to see the list* That's a travesty IMO.

dougdirt
07-01-2012, 03:38 PM
The players voted Lance Lynn 5th on the pitchers list. Wrap your head around that for a minute the next time you think that players are smart and understand the value associated with what they do on the field.

Kc61
07-01-2012, 03:38 PM
David Wright not starting at third base and Johnny Cueto not being on the team are two truly ridiculous outcomes.

Even the selection of Chapman of the Reds over Cueto is not justified IMO.

And, of course, Lynn and others over Cueto are not justified.

PuffyPig
07-01-2012, 03:41 PM
I have no idea but it was the coaches vote from what I understand. Yes, TLR picked Bruce over Holliday. Head scratcher.


I think it balances out. Molina deserved to start. With the Reds leading the division, Larussa felt they deserved at least 3 players, so when he declined to pick Cueto and Phillips, Bruce got he nod. Hard to justify 5 Cards on the team.

Furcal is 7th among NL SS in OPS, and his range has declined badly, yet he starts. Loshe likely deserved it before Lynn.

Lohse and Holliday made more sense to me, over Furcal and Lynn.

MikeThierry
07-01-2012, 03:48 PM
I think it balances out. Molina deserved to start. With the Reds leading the division, Larussa felt they deserved at least 3 players, so when he declined to pick Cueto and Phillips, Bruce got he nod. Hard to justify 5 Cards on the team.

Furcal is 7th among NL SS in OPS, and his range has declined badly, yet he starts. Loshe likely deserved it before Lynn.

Lohse and Holliday made more sense to me, over Furcal and Lynn.

Considering that Furcal is a leadoff hitter, his OPS would be down anyway. He's been one of the best, if not the best, leadoff hitters in the National League this year. I would think only Michael Bourne has been better at getting on base at the leadoff position.

dougdirt
07-01-2012, 03:53 PM
Considering that Furcal is a leadoff hitter, his OPS would be down anyway. He's been one of the best, if not the best, leadoff hitters in the National League this year. I would think only Michael Bourne has been better at getting on base at the leadoff position.

Why would him hitting leadoff mean his OPS would be down? He hits leadoff because his skillset dictates it, he isn't changing his skillset because of where he bats.

The Operator
07-01-2012, 03:57 PM
Considering that Furcal is a leadoff hitter, his OPS would be down anyway. He's been one of the best, if not the best, leadoff hitters in the National League this year. I would think only Michael Bourne has been better at getting on base at the leadoff position.A .346 OBP is nothing to sneeze at but I don't see why being a leadoff hitter means you automatically should have a low OPS. It really just means you're a slap hitter. Not that that's a bad thing, but any more there are quite a few leadoff hitters with more and more pop in their bat.

Orenda
07-01-2012, 03:57 PM
Is this an accurate summary?

Johnny Cueto either likes older women or Tony LaRussa likes younger women or they are both omnivores of the female spectrum.

Sam Lecure is possibly the greatest middle reliever of all time...#seriously?

the Cards / reds rivalry not done yet?

Cueto deserved it from a career perspective but he gets to rest the arm

_Sir_Charles_
07-01-2012, 03:58 PM
I can understand the outrage here but at the same time, Bruce got an All Star nod over Holliday. That's a joke right there.

Bruce WAR 1.4
Holliday War 2.7

It's not even close who's been the better player this year. Cueto deserved to go but so did Holliday. It balanced itself out.

As someone noted before, Lynn was a players vote anyway so I don't understand blaming LaRussa on this.

I agree. I am VERY surprised that Jay made it. Heck, Chapman too. I'm not sure it should've been Holliday though. Michael Bourn is very deserving too.

The Operator
07-01-2012, 03:59 PM
And I'll also add in my disgust over the Phillips and Cueto snub. I predicted a while back that TLR would snub Cueto but I guess I thought surely better sense would prevail. Guess not though. What a joke.

dougdirt
07-01-2012, 04:02 PM
And I'll also add in my disgust over the Phillips and Cueto snub. I predicted a while back that TLR would snub Cueto but I guess I thought surely better sense would prevail. Guess not though. What a joke.

I would still blame the players more than LaRussa. They voted in Lance freaking Lynn over every pitcher in the NL except Dickey, Cain, Strasburg and Gio Gonzalez. Seriously.

MikeThierry
07-01-2012, 04:06 PM
I'm just saying that historically, leadoff hitters don't have a high OPS unless you're name is Ricky Henderson. Sure, there are leadoff hitters today that have pop but if you look at the way baseball is trending, the leadoff hitters in today's game get on base at almost a dismal pace. That would drastically effect their OPS.

My point about Furcal is that I think it's flawed to just use OPS as a measure to judge how well he's been playing. His job is to get on base so Holliday and Beltran can drive him in. It isn't to hit for power. He's consistently been one of the best leadoff hitters in the MLB this year. That's why I don't feel as outraged over him getting the nod as some might.

kaldaniels
07-01-2012, 04:06 PM
I would still blame the players more than LaRussa. They voted in Lance freaking Lynn over every pitcher in the NL except Dickey, Cain, Strasburg and Gio Gonzalez. Seriously.

I'm surprised they are that in tune to who is having a (supposedly) good year vs. just penciling in Halladay/C. Lee/Kershaw....

Totally mind boggling.

MikeThierry
07-01-2012, 04:08 PM
I'm surprised they are that in tune to who is having a (supposedly) good year vs. just penciling in Halladay/C. Lee/Kershaw....

Totally mind boggling.

I think that the managers should be the only ones voting for pitchers. The players would probably have a better feel over who the better everyday players are than they would the pitchers.

dougdirt
07-01-2012, 04:10 PM
I'm just saying that historically, leadoff hitters don't have a high OPS unless you're name is Ricky Henderson. Sure, there are leadoff hitters today that have pop but if you look at the way baseball is trending, the leadoff hitters in today's game get on base at almost a dismal pace. That would drastically effect their OPS.

My point about Furcal is that I think it's flawed to just use OPS as a measure to judge how well he's been playing. His job is to get on base so Holliday and Beltran can drive him in. It isn't to hit for power. He's consistently been one of the best leadoff hitters in the MLB this year. That's why I don't feel as outraged over him getting the nod as some might.

Leadoff hitters today get on base at a dismal pace because managers are dumb and still think speed is more important hitting leadoff than actually getting on base. Most guys batting leadoff in the Majors should be batting 7th or 8th. But because they are fast, these old school managers bat them 1st.

_Sir_Charles_
07-01-2012, 04:11 PM
There are a few players who made it that probably took other players slots due to the 1 player from every team rule.

Houston got Altuve (the probably cost Phillips his slot)
San Diego got Houston Street (I'm surprised it wasn't Headley)
Arizona got Wade Miley (there was Cueto's slot possibly)

But on the undeserving side, Buster Posey shouldn't be there. Nor should Sandoval, Furcal or Uggla. Same goes for Bruce and Chapman IMO.

PuffyPig
07-01-2012, 04:12 PM
I'm just saying that historically, leadoff hitters don't have a high OPS unless you're name is Ricky Henderson. Sure, there are leadoff hitters today that have pop but if you look at the way baseball is trending, the leadoff hitters in today's game get on base at almost a dismal pace. That would drastically effect their OPS.

My point about Furcal is that I think it's flawed to just use OPS as a measure to judge how well he's been playing. His job is to get on base so Holliday and Beltran can drive him in. It isn't to hit for power. He's consistently been one of the best leadoff hitters in the MLB this year. That's why I don't feel as outraged over him getting the nod as some might.


That makes zero sense.

Leadoff hitters don't have bad OBA becuase they hit leadoff, it's becuase they aren't very good hitters.

OPS does not fall because a hitter hits leadoff.

Furcal needs to be compared vs. other SS, and his OPS is behind 6 of them.

MikeThierry
07-01-2012, 04:14 PM
There are a few players who made it that probably took other players slots due to the 1 player from every team rule.

Houston got Altuve (the probably cost Phillips his slot)
San Diego got Houston Street (I'm surprised it wasn't Headley)
Arizona got Wade Miley (there was Cueto's slot possibly)

But on the undeserving side, Buster Posey shouldn't be there. Nor should Sandoval, Furcal or Uggla. Same goes for Bruce and Chapman IMO.

I'm still going to fight with ya about Furcal. He's pretty much the primary reason as to why the Cards have scored the 2nd most runs in the NL this year. I could make the case that he's the MVP for the Cardinals.

PuffyPig
07-01-2012, 04:14 PM
I think that the managers should be the only ones voting for pitchers. The players would probably have a better feel over who the better everyday players are than they would the pitchers.

Why would players not have a good feel for who are the better pitchers?

After all, they are the ones trying to hit them.

dougdirt
07-01-2012, 04:16 PM
I'm still going to fight with ya about Furcal. He's pretty much the primary reason as to why the Cards have scored the 2nd most runs in the NL this year. I could make the case that he's the MVP for the Cardinals.

And you would be wrong. The reason the team has scored the 2nd most runs in the NL is because they have a team OBP of .340.

MikeThierry
07-01-2012, 04:18 PM
That makes zero sense.

Leadoff hitters don't have bad OBA becuase they hit leadoff, it's becuase they aren't very good hitters.

OPS does not fall because a hitter hits leadoff.

Furcal needs to be compared vs. other SS, and his OPS is behind 6 of them.

Well it would drop if the approach is to just get on base instead of hit for power. If they take the Ichiro approach to hitting, that's drastically going reduce the power numbers. Ichiro's never really had amazing OPS but he was the best leadoff guy in the game for about a 10 year stretch.

MikeThierry
07-01-2012, 04:20 PM
And you would be wrong. The reason the team has scored the 2nd most runs in the NL is because they have a team OBP of .340.

So you don't think Votto's RBI numbers are drastically hindered by the Reds lack of leadoff OBP this year?

dougdirt
07-01-2012, 04:20 PM
Well it would drop if the approach is to just get on base instead of hit for power. If they take the Ichiro approach to hitting, that's drastically going reduce the power numbers. Ichiro's never really had amazing OPS but he was the best leadoff guy in the game for about a 10 year stretch.

Does Ichiro play leadoff hitter or does he play right field? When I look at the AS Ballot, leadoff hitter isn't a position to vote on.

dougdirt
07-01-2012, 04:22 PM
So you don't think Votto's RBI numbers are drastically hindered by the Reds lack of leadoff OBP this year?

Sure they are. Right now, Furcal is getting on base .006 more often than the average of the entire team he is on. He isn't the reason they are scoring a bunch of runs. The guys getting on base .360+ and hitting for power are.

MikeThierry
07-01-2012, 04:22 PM
Does Ichiro play leadoff hitter or does he play right field? When I look at the AS Ballot, leadoff hitter isn't a position to vote on.

When I vote, I do take into context where players hit in the lineup. I don't know, maybe I'm different.

dougdirt
07-01-2012, 04:22 PM
When I vote, I do take into context where players hit in the lineup. I don't know, maybe I'm different.

You go through every player on the ballot and find out where they bat in the line up? I find that highly doubtful.

MikeThierry
07-01-2012, 04:23 PM
Sure they are. Right now, Furcal is getting on base .006 more often than the average of the entire team he is on. He isn't the reason they are scoring a bunch of runs. The guys getting on base .360+ and hitting for power are.

Furcal also sees more total plate appearances than the majority of the players on his team. It should be noted that for a good chunk of the season, Furcal was getting on at a .380-.400 clip until he entered into a prolonged slump in June.

757690
07-01-2012, 04:24 PM
I'm still going to fight with ya about Furcal. He's pretty much the primary reason as to why the Cards have scored the 2nd most runs in the NL this year. I could make the case that he's the MVP for the Cardinals.

Well, you might be onto something with your MVP comment

Until May 17th, Furcal had a .433 OBP, since then, he has and a .263 OBP. Kinda mirrors the Cardinals winning percentage.

MikeThierry
07-01-2012, 04:24 PM
You go through every player on the ballot and find out where they bat in the line up? I find that highly doubtful.

Well, you can doubt all you want. When I vote, I do take into account if the player I vote for leads off. I can't put him in the same category as a guy hitting in the 3 or 4th spot that's supposed to hit for power.

MikeThierry
07-01-2012, 04:25 PM
Well, you might be onto something with your MVP comment

Until May 17th, Furcal had a .433 OBP, since then, he has and a .263 OBP. Kinda mirrors the Cardinals winning percentage.

Exactly. He's the engine that kept the car running. At one point, he tied Stan Musial for the number of 3 hit games in a 40 game stretch.

Vottomatic
07-01-2012, 04:27 PM
And to think I was interested in the Reds hiring TLR if the team fell into 3rd or 4th place under Dusty.

Leaving Cueto and Phillips off the AS roster just lead me to lose any remaining respect I had for TLR. Really petty of him.

dougdirt
07-01-2012, 04:31 PM
Well, you might be onto something with your MVP comment

Until May 17th, Furcal had a .433 OBP, since then, he has and a .263 OBP. Kinda mirrors the Cardinals winning percentage.

Something else happened around May 17th for the Cardinals. I can't place my thumb on it though. Oh, they lost a 1.000 OPS bat from the middle of their lineup. David Freese went from a world beater to an average hitter in the same span too. Carlos Beltran went from a 1.046 OPS to a .902 OPS.

There is a whole lot of things that happened in that same time frame that were just as big for the Cardinals 'drought' as Furcal's OBP dropping off of a cliff.

Either way, there is no way you could even come close to convincing me that Rafael Furcal is the team MVP over Carlos Beltran. Or Matt Holliday. Or Yadier Molina. Or Kyle Lohse.

MikeThierry
07-01-2012, 04:33 PM
Why would players not have a good feel for who are the better pitchers?

After all, they are the ones trying to hit them.

I think it's one of those things where "I faced the guy, he has nasty stuff". That kind of thinking would explain why Lynn is in and why Cueto is out.

MikeThierry
07-01-2012, 04:35 PM
Something else happened around May 17th for the Cardinals. I can't place my thumb on it though. Oh, they lost a 1.000 OPS bat from the middle of their lineup. David Freese went from a world beater to an average hitter in the same span too. Carlos Beltran went from a 1.046 OPS to a .902 OPS.

There is a whole lot of things that happened in that same time frame that were just as big for the Cardinals 'drought' as Furcal's OBP dropping off of a cliff.

Either way, there is no way you could even come close to convincing me that Rafael Furcal is the team MVP over Carlos Beltran. Or Matt Holliday. Or Yadier Molina. Or Kyle Lohse.

Do you think it may have been because nobody was getting on for Beltran? Not having people on base in front of RBI guys changes the approach pitchers have. Again.. see Joey Votto.

dougdirt
07-01-2012, 04:38 PM
Do you think it may have been because nobody was getting on for Beltran? Not having people on base in front of RBI guys changes the approach pitchers have. Again.. see Joey Votto.

Which has what to do with a slap hitter being your team MVP instead of easily the best hitter on your team?

757690
07-01-2012, 04:40 PM
Something else happened around May 17th for the Cardinals. I can't place my thumb on it though. Oh, they lost a 1.000 OPS bat from the middle of their lineup. David Freese went from a world beater to an average hitter in the same span too. Carlos Beltran went from a 1.046 OPS to a .902 OPS.

There is a whole lot of things that happened in that same time frame that were just as big for the Cardinals 'drought' as Furcal's OBP dropping off of a cliff.

Either way, there is no way you could even come close to convincing me that Rafael Furcal is the team MVP over Carlos Beltran. Or Matt Holliday. Or Yadier Molina. Or Kyle Lohse.

Their bullpen imploded and starters like Lynn, Garcia and Westbrook leveled off.

I was more pointing out how Furcal has fallen off a cliff these last two months. I wouldn't be surprised to see that decline continue. If the Cards are dependent on Furcal having an OBP of over .400 for them to win, they are in big trouble.

MikeThierry
07-01-2012, 04:46 PM
Which has what to do with a slap hitter being your team MVP instead of easily the best hitter on your team?

In my original statement, I said arguably. I never said he was definitely the team MVP.

kaldaniels
07-01-2012, 04:49 PM
The "Well I never said he was DEFINITELY the MVP" defense...

You certainly threw it out there Mike...but have not yet made a case for Furcal over Beltran.

kaldaniels
07-01-2012, 04:59 PM
What's up with Cueto's remark about going out with one of TLRs girlfriends?

http://cincinnati.com/blogs/reds/

fearofpopvol1
07-01-2012, 05:00 PM
Bruce should not have made the team. Cueto and Phillips should have. And how Phillips was snubbed for the fan vote is strange too. Phillips has had a better season than Harper, but I guess his story isn't as sexy. Even if Cueto was unable to pitch, he still should have been given the honor. Among qualifying starters, Cueto has the 6th highest WAR number of anyone in the NL.

*BaseClogger*
07-01-2012, 06:24 PM
The first snub I noticed was on the AL roster--Ian Kinsler over Jason Kipnis. Did the Rangers not already have enough players represented?

powersackers
07-01-2012, 06:26 PM
Your skill set may not change with your spot in the order but your approach does. Look no further than Brandon Phillips in lead off spot vs cleanup. You guys that deal in tools and stats and scouting reports really don't understand the human/cerebul part of the game.

jojo
07-01-2012, 06:46 PM
Your skill set may not change with your spot in the order but your approach does. Look no further than Brandon Phillips in lead off spot vs cleanup. You guys that deal in tools and stats and scouting reports really don't understand the human/cerebul part of the game.

That's neither a fair nor useful comment IMHO.

What's more, I'm having trouble seeing what you see when looking at Phillips' career splits:

Batting 1st: .275/.336/.445, OPS=.781, BB%=6.7, K%=13.5
Batting 4th: .281/.330/.454, OPS=.785, BB%=6.3, K%=13.9

kaldaniels
07-01-2012, 06:58 PM
That's neither a fair nor useful comment IMHO.

What's more, I'm having trouble seeing what you see when looking at Phillips' career splits:

Batting 1st: .275/.336/.445, OPS=.781, BB%=6.7, K%=13.5
Batting 4th: .281/.330/.454, OPS=.785, BB%=6.3, K%=13.9

Doesn't matter what he sees. Matters what his gut says.

Gut feelings - more popular each day - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OBRKPoAPXEQ)

powersackers
07-01-2012, 07:02 PM
That's neither a fair nor useful comment IMHO.

What's more, I'm having trouble seeing what you see when looking at Phillips' career splits:

Batting 1st: .275/.336/.445, OPS=.781, BB%=6.7, K%=13.5
Batting 4th: .281/.330/.454, OPS=.785, BB%=6.3, K%=13.9
It was obvious watching his approach in 2011. I don't care what the stats say in this matter but 2011 Phillips in lead off vs 2011 Phillips not in leadoff it was night and day to the human eye that his approach was different.

It likely is useful to some members on here to know they aren't they only ones who can feel differently than traditional stats and analysis dictate- and it's OK to look at other things and have an opinion.

mth123
07-01-2012, 07:06 PM
NM

jojo
07-01-2012, 07:17 PM
It was obvious watching his approach in 2011. I don't care what the stats say in this matter but 2011 Phillips in lead off vs 2011 Phillips not in leadoff it was night and day to the human eye that his approach was different.

It likely is useful to some members on here to know they aren't they only ones who can feel differently than traditional stats and analysis dictate- and it's OK to look at other things and have an opinion.

The only thing obvious about Phillips' 2011 splits is the impact that small samples can have on the impressions that fans form.

Batting 1st: .350/.417/.573, OPS=.990, PAs=177
Batting 4th: .292/.336/.424, OPS=.760, PAs=242

PuffyPig
07-01-2012, 10:54 PM
I think it's one of those things where "I faced the guy, he has nasty stuff". That kind of thinking would explain why Lynn is in and why Cueto is out.

That's the opposite of what you originally said.

You said players shouldn't be picking pitchers, that managers should be.

Or have I misread your intention?

PuffyPig
07-01-2012, 11:03 PM
It was obvious watching his approach in 2011. I don't care what the stats say in this matter but 2011 Phillips in lead off vs 2011 Phillips not in leadoff it was night and day to the human eye that his approach was different.

It likely is useful to some members on here to know they aren't they only ones who can feel differently than traditional stats and analysis dictate- and it's OK to look at other things and have an opinion.

So, even if the stats say that over his career he hits the same whether he hits lead off or clean up, it's OK to say otherwise?

So if I say Valdez is a better hitter than Votto, becuse that's simply the way I see it, that's OK?

Because I don't care what the stats say about the matter?

I would suggest that the better way for you to have handled this would be to admit that you were wrong based on the lifetime stats, and that you were basing your asessment simply upon your impression from the 2011 season. That would have been fair comment and you wouldn't have lost your credability by simply choosing to ignore some infutable lifetime stats.

oregonred
07-01-2012, 11:37 PM
Back to the original thread

No Grienke, Bumgarner, Santana, McDonald, Cueto... Say What?

powersackers
07-01-2012, 11:49 PM
So, even if the stats say that over his career he hits the same whether he hits lead off or clean up, it's OK to say otherwise?

So if I say Valdez is a better hitter than Votto, becuse that's simply the way I see it, that's OK?

Because I don't care what the stats say about the matter?

I would suggest that the better way for you to have handled this would be to admit that you were wrong based on the lifetime stats, and that you were basing your asessment simply upon your impression from the 2011 season. That would have been fair comment and you wouldn't have lost your credability by simply choosing to ignore some infutable lifetime stats.

Stats = results
I am talking about approach.
approach = human aspect not measured by stats

You brought stats into the discussion. I did not.

The question was about lead off mentality and approach regarding Furcal and Ichiro and I brought up Phillips. It was suggested that OPS ability is the same no matter where one hits in the order. I am simply stating that's not true because approach can change OPS If you are cognitive about getting on base by shortening your swing or choking up or looking for a hole I'm the defense. Human elements that can change a lifetime of stats.... but if I still need to apologize PM me. Credibility lost or not I feel I am on target here.

The Operator
07-02-2012, 12:42 AM
Stats = results
I am talking about approach.
approach = human aspect not measured by stats

You brought stats into the discussion. I did not.I feel pretty comfortable in saying that if the stats are almost identical as they are, that there wasn't a drastic change in approach.

PuffyPig
07-02-2012, 06:40 AM
The question was about lead off mentality and approach regarding Furcal and Ichiro and I brought up Phillips. It was suggested that OPS ability is the same no matter where one hits in the order. I am simply stating that's not true because approach can change OPS If you are cognitive about getting on base by shortening your swing or choking up or looking for a hole I'm the defense. Human elements that can change a lifetime of stats.... but if I still need to apologize PM me. Credibility lost or not I feel I am on target here.

I agree that approach can change OPS, but in the case of Phillips, how do you expalin the fact that his OPS has not changed over a lifetime of stats?

No one suggested that generally OPS ability is the same no matter where one hits in the order.

But many have stated that in Phillips' case it hasn't made a statistical difference. If Phiulips does indeed change his approach when he hits leadoff, it hasn't made a difference in his OPS stats.

You have made an interesting hypothesis, but then picked the absolutely worse candidate to prove it. Phillips actually disproves your hypothesis.

bucksfan2
07-02-2012, 10:12 AM
As long as the game means "something" a retired manager should not be allowed to coach the game.

Does anyone really want TLR managing Jonny Cueto?

I don't want any Reds pitcher pitching in the game. But as long as All Star Bonus are written into contracts then the best players should be chosen regardless.

Sandavol over Wright is just laughable.

redsmetz
07-02-2012, 10:35 AM
Interestingly, on Sunday, the NY Times baseball blog listed out his choices for the All Star team, as well as who was deserving of being the starter at the various positions. He had Brandon Phillips as the 2nd base starter. He also had Cueto on the squad along with Chapman, but not Bruce - and I'm not sure any of us would have squawked had he been left off. And, yes, TLR, we can impugn your motives; this easily has your petulant nature written all over it.

http://bats.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/06/30/seek-fun-not-meaning-in-the-all-star-game/?ref=baseball

OesterPoster
07-02-2012, 02:02 PM
Interesting...John Fay actually did some research:

http://cincinnati.com/blogs/reds/2012/07/02/larussa-ignored-sunday-pitcher-rule/



No pitcher is supposed to be passed over because he’s starting on Sunday. In fact, the matter is spelled out in the new Collective Bargaining Agreement, under appropriately enough the “Sunday Pitcher Rule.”

_Sir_Charles_
07-02-2012, 02:05 PM
It IS interesting...both the contend AND Fayl doing some research. I was coming to post the same thing (and the Fayl comment). :O)

I wonder if they'll put up a stink about it. They might want to just let it go. Complaining about it now just makes us look like Cardina...I mean whiners.

jojo
07-02-2012, 02:23 PM
It IS interesting...both the contend AND Fayl doing some research. I was coming to post the same thing (and the Fayl comment). :O)

I wonder if they'll put up a stink about it. They might want to just let it go. Complaining about it now just makes us look like Cardina...I mean whiners.

That's the sticky wickett... arguing player X should have been in is in essence saying player Y wasn't as deserving. The graceful thing to do is to congratulate those on the roster and to move on.

OesterPoster
07-02-2012, 02:27 PM
I'm sure it'll get brought up when Fay meets with Marty on the air tonight or tomorrow night. Because, you know...Marty loves him some LaRussa. :)

redsmetz
07-02-2012, 02:28 PM
It IS interesting...both the contend AND Fayl doing some research. I was coming to post the same thing (and the Fayl comment). :O)

I wonder if they'll put up a stink about it. They might want to just let it go. Complaining about it now just makes us look like Cardina...I mean whiners.

I think his agent pursuing it is reasonable, particularly since LaRussa plainly said he didn't pick him because he was pitching on Sunday. Now, in fairness to LaRussa, since he's retired, he may not have been made aware of that new provision in the CBA, but I think Cueto would have a good case for a grievance and would likely succeed in getting the bonus. Methinks that MLB may well reconsider ever allowing a retired manager to manage another All Star team except in an honorary fashion.

BTW, it wouldnt surprise me if Bob Castellini didn't voluntarily pay the bonus since LaRussa erred in his understanding of the rule. My guess is, the Reds will have to pay it anyway and they might as well be out front on it. BC strikes as the sort that would do such a thing.

fearofpopvol1
07-02-2012, 02:32 PM
Keith Law wrote about this and I think actually nailed it.

http://insider.espn.go.com/mlb/blog/_/name/law_keith/id/8121921/zack-greinke-johnny-cueto-other-all-star-snubs

He definitely thought Cueto was a glaring omission, although no mention of Phillips. He also though Lynn being voted in by the players was a joke and that Furcal being added was a laugher too.

Vottomatic
07-02-2012, 05:06 PM
Keith Law wrote about this and I think actually nailed it.

http://insider.espn.go.com/mlb/blog/_/name/law_keith/id/8121921/zack-greinke-johnny-cueto-other-all-star-snubs

He definitely thought Cueto was a glaring omission, although no mention of Phillips. He also though Lynn being voted in by the players was a joke and that Furcal being added was a laugher too.

You have to be an ESPNinsider to read the whole thing.

Always Red
07-02-2012, 06:07 PM
The only problem I have with any of it is that LaRussa gave a reason why Cueto may have been left off, and it had to do with when he last pitches before the ASG, and blames Dusty. That is not right, and Cueto's agent is all over it.

Mostly I am enjoying the TLR/DB pissing contest.

I'm with Sir Charles- all the whining from the Queen City is starting to remind me of another baseball town where the team wears red, that is south and west of here, and slightly more humid than here. No one likes a whiner. There is a time to shut up and play ball. Say it once, get it out, and then take out your frustrations on the field of play.

fearofpopvol1
07-02-2012, 06:11 PM
The only problem I have with any of it is that LaRussa gave a reason why Cueto may have been left off, and it had to do with when he last pitches before the ASG, and blames Dusty. That is not right, and Cueto's agent is all over it.

Mostly I am enjoying the TLR/DB pissing contest.

I'm with Sir Charles- all the whining from the Queen City is starting to remind me of another baseball town where the team wears red, that is south and west of here, and slightly more humid than here. No one likes a whiner. There is a time to shut up and play ball. Say it once, get it out, and then take out your frustrations on the field of play.

I don't know. I don't mind it. It's not like the Reds have a history of complaining and whining. Dusty is just sticking up for his players here, and based on the rules in place and what we know, he has a very good case to do so. I'll agree with you if it continues beyond what's previously come out, though.

Separate from the Reds, the Brewers should be absolutely outraged. Greinke has the highest WAR of any qualifying starting in the NL. It might be the biggest snub I've ever seen that he's not on the team.

powersackers
07-02-2012, 06:18 PM
I agree that approach can change OPS, but in the case of Phillips, how do you expalin the fact that his OPS has not changed over a lifetime of stats?

No one suggested that generally OPS ability is the same no matter where one hits in the order.

But many have stated that in Phillips' case it hasn't made a statistical difference. If Phiulips does indeed change his approach when he hits leadoff, it hasn't made a difference in his OPS stats.

You have made an interesting hypothesis, but then picked the absolutely worse candidate to prove it. Phillips actually disproves your hypothesis.

Guilty. :)

Always Red
07-02-2012, 06:23 PM
I don't know. I don't mind it. It's not like the Reds have a history of complaining and whining. Dusty is just sticking up for his players here, and based on the rules in place and what we know, he has a very good case to do so. I'll agree with you if it continues beyond what's previously come out, though.

Separate from the Reds, the Brewers should be absolutely outraged. Greinke has the highest WAR of any qualifying starting in the NL. It might be the biggest snub I've ever seen that he's not on the team.

Yep, there were equal snubs to Cueto- Greinke and also Matt Holliday, IMO. Uggla was voted in by the fans, and Altuve by the players. BP is having a borderline All Star year; I have no problem with him being left off.

BTW, one of the things I admire most about Dusty is how he has his players backs. Time to stop yakking about ASG snubs at this point though, I think.

MartyFan
07-02-2012, 07:22 PM
How fun is it to hate the Cardinals? I think really, really fun...though I have to tell you until last year I never paid much attention to them...meaning, I didn't find them all that offensive...In the past it has always been the Cubs and Dodgers who I found so repulsive...but the cardinals are making a strong case.

reds1869
07-02-2012, 08:01 PM
Yep, there were equal snubs to Cueto- Greinke and also Matt Holliday, IMO. Uggla was voted in by the fans, and Altuve by the players. BP is having a borderline All Star year; I have no problem with him being left off.

I agree. While the Reds fan side of my brain is upset BP didn't get in, I can't really complain about his exclusion. The omission of Greinke and Cueto, on the other hand, is downright criminal.

redsmetz
07-02-2012, 08:24 PM
I agree. While the Reds fan side of my brain is upset BP didn't get in, I can't really complain about his exclusion. The omission of Greinke and Cueto, on the other hand, is downright criminal.

You're right about BP. In fact, Marty's been griping all week about the requirement that each team have a representative and that Altuve would the Astros (although many say he's deserving). I disagree with Marty on this point, but BP may have been hit with a numbers game when he wasn't chosen in the fan voting.

defender
07-02-2012, 08:28 PM
The only thing obvious about Phillips' 2011 splits is the impact that small samples can have on the impressions that fans form.

Batting 1st: .350/.417/.573, OPS=.990, PAs=177
Batting 4th: .292/.336/.424, OPS=.760, PAs=242

There were a significant number of posts last year about Brandon changing his approach hitting leadoff. It may have been a relatively small number of PAs, but it was observed. I don't think he has had enough overall PAs at leadoff to say that the stats prove he has the same approach hitting 4 or 1. Based on observing Phillips hitting fourth this year, I think he has improved his overall approach.

I do agree with the original point, that we should not judge leadoff hitters on OPS. There have also been many posts saying the Reds need to get more base runners in front of Votto. Getting on base is the most important thing in a leadoff hitter. Baker is stupid for choosing a leadoff hitter based on speed. Etc. Judge a leadoff hitter on his OBP. Furcal had a very good OBP for most of season.

klw
07-02-2012, 08:58 PM
So I am guessing this whole affair will be the end of any future rumors of Larussa replacing Dusty.

jojo
07-02-2012, 09:08 PM
There were a significant number of posts last year about Brandon changing his approach hitting leadoff. It may have been a relatively small number of PAs, but it was observed. I don't think he has had enough overall PAs at leadoff to say that the stats prove he has the same approach hitting 4 or 1. Based on observing Phillips hitting fourth this year, I think he has improved his overall approach.

I do agree with the original point, that we should not judge leadoff hitters on OPS. There have also been many posts saying the Reds need to get more base runners in front of Votto. Getting on base is the most important thing in a leadoff hitter. Baker is stupid for choosing a leadoff hitter based on speed. Etc. Judge a leadoff hitter on his OBP. Furcal had a very good OBP for most of season.

Phillips is what he's always kind of been- a roughly league average hitter with big platoon splits and a love for GABP. If his 2011 lineup splits were the legitimate increase in true talent because of a change in approach, he would be silly to have stopped it.

This conversation gets had every year about the time Phillips has a little hot streak. Regression is a bear though.

MikeThierry
07-03-2012, 01:20 AM
Has anyone else ever felt the NL has always been at a disadvantage in the AS Game simply because it has 2 more teams than the AL? I think this certainly has led to a more watered down NL roster because there has to be 2 extra spots in reserve. I have a feeling that if every team didn't have to be represented, this whole argument of leaving Cueto off the roster would be moot.

defender
07-03-2012, 02:12 AM
Phillips is what he's always kind of been- a roughly league average hitter with big platoon splits and a love for GABP. If his 2011 lineup splits were the legitimate increase in true talent because of a change in approach, he would be silly to have stopped it.

This conversation gets had every year about the time Phillips has a little hot streak. Regression is a bear though.

Except for a poor start, he has continued. I think he has become a better than league average hitter and has significantly improved his platoon splits. I think what people were posting about was a true change in approach. Brandon Phillips now is different from Brandon Phillips 2008. Regardless of whether his position in the lineup had anything to do with it.

757690
07-03-2012, 04:18 AM
Has anyone else ever felt the NL has always been at a disadvantage in the AS Game simply because it has 2 more teams than the AL? I think this certainly has led to a more watered down NL roster because there has to be 2 extra spots in reserve. I have a feeling that if every team didn't have to be represented, this whole argument of leaving Cueto off the roster would be moot.

Excellent point. I never thought of that. Makes sense. I guess next year, it won't be an issue.

VR
07-03-2012, 03:05 PM
http://cincinnati.com/blogs/reds/2012/07/02/la-russa-gets-support-from-mlb-over-cueto-snub/

I got a chuckle out of this article.

"Feeney was emphatic that the Cincinnati-Cardinals brawl of 2010 was not brought up in the discussions she had with La Russa for several days last week.

“Tony never, ever, ever mentioned anything about a fight two years ago,” she said."

Really Katy? Well, I for one am surprised that Tony wouldn't publicy state that during the process. :laugh:

Always Red
07-03-2012, 03:15 PM
http://cincinnati.com/blogs/reds/2012/07/02/la-russa-gets-support-from-mlb-over-cueto-snub/

I got a chuckle out of this article.

"Feeney was emphatic that the Cincinnati-Cardinals brawl of 2010 was not brought up in the discussions she had with La Russa for several days last week.

“Tony never, ever, ever mentioned anything about a fight two years ago,” she said."

Really Katy? Well, I for one am surprised that Tony wouldn't publicy state that during the process. :laugh:

But what he did state, very publicly, is that Cueto wasn't selected because he was going to pitch on Sunday, and if he weren't pitching Sunday, it might have turned out differently for Johnny. Then TLR blamed Dusty for that.

I don't so much have a problem with Cueto being left off, after all Greinke was too, but TLR simply cannot use that as his reasoning.

I'd like to see MLB respond to that.

VR
07-03-2012, 03:18 PM
But what he did state, very publicly, is that Cueto wasn't selected because he was going to pitch on Sunday, and if he weren't pitching Sunday, it might have turned out differently for Johnny. Then TLR blamed Dusty for that.

I don't so much have a problem with Cueto being left off, after all Greinke was too, but TLR simply cannot use that as his reasoning.

I'd like to see MLB respond to that.

Sale and Hernandez were picked, and are pitching Sunday. Tony has used this as a strawman, it's really quite embarrassing for him.

Always Red
07-03-2012, 03:29 PM
Sale and Hernandez were picked, and are pitching Sunday. Tony has used this as a strawman, it's really quite embarrassing for him.

Yes, and nothing but crickets chirping from MLB.

Of course, TLR does work for them now.

redsmetz
07-03-2012, 03:38 PM
Yes, and nothing but crickets chirping from MLB.

Of course, TLR does work for them now.

At this point, I don't know how it can be undone (or that it should be). May force MLB to rethink how they get down to selecting. And they're probably fairly ticked at TLR stepping in it.

_Sir_Charles_
07-03-2012, 03:45 PM
But what he did state, very publicly, is that Cueto wasn't selected because he was going to pitch on Sunday, and if he weren't pitching Sunday, it might have turned out differently for Johnny. Then TLR blamed Dusty for that.

I don't so much have a problem with Cueto being left off, after all Greinke was too, but TLR simply cannot use that as his reasoning.

I'd like to see MLB respond to that.

Why can't he use that as his reasoning? What's the point in putting Cueto on the team if he can't play? That whole "sunday pitching rule" thing that Fayl posted the other day was completely wrong. I misread it at first, but it doesn't say anywhere in there that you can't be omitted if you pitch on sunday. It's basically just a provision to protect pitchers WHO DO MAKE THE TEAM from working too much if they just pitched on sunday.

Strikes Out Looking
07-03-2012, 03:56 PM
If I was commissioner, I'd just suspend Tony LaRussa for life for the good of baseball.

Always Red
07-03-2012, 04:15 PM
Why can't he use that as his reasoning? What's the point in putting Cueto on the team if he can't play? That whole "sunday pitching rule" thing that Fayl posted the other day was completely wrong. I misread it at first, but it doesn't say anywhere in there that you can't be omitted if you pitch on sunday. It's basically just a provision to protect pitchers WHO DO MAKE THE TEAM from working too much if they just pitched on sunday.

Here is what TLR said:


“If Dusty (Baker) had been more interested in Cueto being on the team, then he wouldn’t be pitching him on Sunday. Cueto probably would be on the team if he wasn’t pitching Sunday. The comments Dusty made clearly disappoint me and are attacking my integrity. The All-Star experience is too important to let anything stand in the way of a decision like that. No way am I going to penalize anybody for any kind of past history. The fact is that Cueto is going to be pitching on Sunday. Some other day, he’s probably on the team.”

Here is what the rule is:


(ii) Sunday Pitcher Rule. Any starting pitcher elected or selected to the All-Star team who makes a start on the Sunday immediately preceding the All-Star Game (“Sunday Pitcher”) shall have the option to participate or not participate in the All-Star Game. If such starting pitcher elects to participate in the All-Star Game, he will not be permitted to pitch for more than one inning, and he may also inform his manager that he should be removed from the game if he reaches a certain pitch count (irrespective of whether he has completed one inning), provided such pitch count is reasonable. If a Sunday Pitcher who was originally named to the team elects not to participate in the All-Star Game, he will be replaced on the roster but treated in the same manner as other All-Stars who are excused from participation, and he will be encouraged to attend and be announced at the All-Star Game.

I'm not sure how Fay got that completely wrong?

And I'm also not sure how TLR can use that as his excuse to leave Cueto off the team? Cueto's agent took it up with the union, because it's blatantly against the agreement. No pitcher can be "penalized" by not being named to the team because he pitched on Sunday. That way, he can be named an AS, collect his bonus, get it put on BR.com, and then choose to not play. Or pitch an inning.

Am I missing something?

_Sir_Charles_
07-03-2012, 04:29 PM
Here is what TLR said:



Here is what the rule is:



I'm not sure how Fay got that completely wrong?

And I'm also not sure how TLR can use that as his excuse to leave Cueto off the team? Cueto's agent took it up with the union, because it's blatantly against the agreement. No pitcher can be "penalized" by not being named to the team because he pitched on Sunday. That way, he can be named an AS, collect his bonus, get it put on BR.com, and then choose to not play. Or pitch an inning.

Am I missing something?

Yep. So was I. Re-read that rule again. All of that stuff is based on the stipulation that he is ON the team. There's nothing in that rule that says you can't exclude a pitcher who's pitching on sunday. Unless there's more to that rule, it's sole purpose is to put some sort of limitations on what the manager of the ASG can do with pitchers who just pitched on sunday. It's a way of limiting how much they're used. That's all. NOTHING about selection. It also allows a pitcher who was selected to opt out of the game if they choose to. I think there is some new rule recently that says players can't choose not to play anymore. Not sure on that last part though.

And MLB backed him up on it from what I read in that Stl article.

VR
07-03-2012, 04:32 PM
I think the rule that should be in place is having a retired manager come back and make decisions about who should or shouldn't play.

If you want to have them be the token gameday manager, fine.

MikeThierry
07-03-2012, 04:38 PM
This piece is pretty much spot on.

http://espn.go.com/blog/sweetspot/post/_/id/26377/reds-anger-toward-la-russa-misplaced

This is going to come off rather harsh here but Cincy fans need to get over it. All teams have snubs. Heck, I'm still scratching my head as to why Reds fans are so "angry" over this yet don't mention that Bruce got voted in by TLR over Holliday or Bourn. Cueto's agent filing an injunction is looking petty. Players do not have a right to go to the All Star game. Simple as that. Until that becomes a right in MLB, a manager can pick whom ever they want. My advice, have the Reds win a World Series and that will give Dusty the right to stack the team with Reds players.

_Sir_Charles_
07-03-2012, 04:40 PM
I agree with you Mike....but prepare for a beating. LOL. :O)

MikeThierry
07-03-2012, 04:41 PM
I agree with you Mike....but prepare for a beating. LOL. :O)

That's ok, I can handle it. This whole argument is beyond silly. Heck, I thought it was ridiculous that Scott Rolen was picked to the AS game last year when Pujols had significantly better numbers and could play 3rd base yet wasn't picked. I can go down a whole list of players that probably should have gone to the AS game and didn't get pick. Move on.

Always Red
07-03-2012, 04:47 PM
Yep. So was I. Re-read that rule again. All of that stuff is based on the stipulation that he is ON the team. There's nothing in that rule that says you can't exclude a pitcher who's pitching on sunday. Unless there's more to that rule, it's sole purpose is to put some sort of limitations on what the manager of the ASG can do with pitchers who just pitched on sunday. It's a way of limiting how much they're used. That's all. NOTHING about selection. It also allows a pitcher who was selected to opt out of the game if they choose to. I think there is some new rule recently that says players can't choose not to play anymore. Not sure on that last part though.

And MLB backed him up on it from what I read in that Stl article.

I get that rule is based on being selected, but TLR said, out loud to a reporter, that he didn't select him because he was pitching on Sunday. The part I bolded.

Dumb of TLR to say that, and I think he did it only to take a shot back at Baker. He can't "not select" him because he pitched on Sunday. That's the only part I can see any fault in.

As others have agreed, lots of guys were snubbed. I'm wondering why Bruce made it.

I really do enjoy the sniping between TLR and DB. They're not very politically correct, and I enjoy that.

westofyou
07-03-2012, 04:48 PM
The All Star game is stupid, and LaRussa is an arrogant man at times, Dusty is backing up his guys and he likes to poke Tony (which I love) and the Cardinals are a pile of poo around here.

No amount of zeros and ones constructed into a cognitive sentence by a Cardinal fan written on a Reds board will change any of that.

So in short... Cardinals = Poo

Always Red
07-03-2012, 04:52 PM
This piece is pretty much spot on.

http://espn.go.com/blog/sweetspot/post/_/id/26377/reds-anger-toward-la-russa-misplaced

This is going to come off rather harsh here but Cincy fans need to get over it. All teams have snubs. Heck, I'm still scratching my head as to why Reds fans are so "angry" over this yet don't mention that Bruce got voted in by TLR over Holliday or Bourn. Cueto's agent filing an injunction is looking petty. Players do not have a right to go to the All Star game. Simple as that. Until that becomes a right in MLB, a manager can pick whom ever they want. My advice, have the Reds win a World Series and that will give Dusty the right to stack the team with Reds players.


"The fact is that Cueto is going to be pitching on Sunday. Some other day, he’s probably on the team.”

This is my only beef with TLR. He can't give that as a reason. He doesn't even need to give a reason, and probably shouldn't have said anything, but he couldn't hold back at responding to Baker.

This is why Cueto's agent does have a point, and it's not petty. And he didn't take it up with MLB to try to get anything reversed or changed, but as a grievance with the players union. I don't think anyone will use that as an excuse again.

And as much as TLR gets under Reds fans skin, it's very clear that Dusty also gets under his skin.

757690
07-03-2012, 04:52 PM
This piece is pretty much spot on.

http://espn.go.com/blog/sweetspot/post/_/id/26377/reds-anger-toward-la-russa-misplaced

This is going to come off rather harsh here but Cincy fans need to get over it. All teams have snubs. Heck, I'm still scratching my head as to why Reds fans are so "angry" over this yet don't mention that Bruce got voted in by TLR over Holliday or Bourn. Cueto's agent filing an injunction is looking petty. Players do not have a right to go to the All Star game. Simple as that. Until that becomes a right in MLB, a manager can pick whom ever they want. My advice, have the Reds win a World Series and that will give Dusty the right to stack the team with Reds players.

The article misses the entire point of the controversy.

LaRussa could have picked Cueto, then replaced him on the roster with another pitcher because Cueto is pitching on Sunday. The same players get to go to the All-Star game, Cueto gets named, but doesn't have to pitch or take up a roster spot.

So not only is wrong is using Cueto's starting in Sunday as an excuse for not picking him, but Cueto's starting on Sunday actually give LaRussa a reason to name him and still pick everyone else he wanted.

LaRussa just proves again what an classless idiot he is.

MikeThierry
07-03-2012, 05:00 PM
The article misses the entire point of the controversy.

LaRussa could have picked Cueto, then replaced him on the roster with another pitcher because Cueto is pitching on Sunday. The same players get to go to the All-Star game, Cueto gets named, but doesn't have to pitch or take up a roster spot.

So not only is wrong is using Cueto's starting in Sunday as an excuse for not picking him, but Cueto's starting on Sunday actually give LaRussa a reason to name him and still pick everyone else he wanted.

LaRussa just proves again what an classless idiot he is.

But he didn't pick Cueto. It's his choice. Simple as that. Until MLB doesn't grant managers the power to choose players, people have to live with what the manager chooses.

No matter how any of you want to spin it, it is petty what Cueto's agent is doing. It's making your players look like exactly what Brandon Phillips accused the Cards of being. I can't think of any instance in the history of the AS game where a player's agent files an injunction on behalf of the player for not being selected to the AS game. It's ludicrous.

VR
07-03-2012, 05:08 PM
The article misses the entire point of the controversy.

LaRussa could have picked Cueto, then replaced him on the roster with another pitcher because Cueto is pitching on Sunday. The same players get to go to the All-Star game, Cueto gets named, but doesn't have to pitch or take up a roster spot.

So not only is wrong is using Cueto's starting in Sunday as an excuse for not picking him, but Cueto's starting on Sunday actually give LaRussa a reason to name him and still pick everyone else he wanted.

LaRussa just proves again what an classless idiot he is.

Bingo

757690
07-03-2012, 05:13 PM
But he didn't pick Cueto. It's his choice. Simple as that. Until MLB doesn't grant managers the power to choose players, people have to live with what the manager chooses.

No matter how any of you want to spin it, it is petty what Cueto's agent is doing. It's making your players look like exactly what Brandon Phillips accused the Cards of being. I can't think of any instance in the history of the AS game where a player's agent files an injunction on behalf of the player for not being selected to the AS game. It's ludicrous.

Again, completely missing the point.

Of course it's LaRussa's choice, that he didn't choose Cueto isn't what people are complaining about. It's why he didn't pick Cueto. His excuse is beyond stupid.

LaRussa said Cueto would have probably made the team, had he not been pitching on Sunday. However, if LaRussa really thought Cueto deserved to go, he can't use the fact he was pitching on Sunday as a reason not to pick him. In fact, because Cueto is starting in Sunday, it gives LaRussa an opportunity to pick him, and then replace him on the roster with someone else.

As for the grievance, money is at stake here, and any and every agent would have and should have filed a grievance. That's their job.

Dom Heffner
07-03-2012, 05:17 PM
But he didn't pick Cueto. It's his choice. Simple as that. Until MLB doesn't grant managers the power to choose players, people have to live with what the manager chooses.

No matter how any of you want to spin it, it is petty what Cueto's agent is doing. It's making your players look like exactly what Brandon Phillips accused the Cards of being. I can't think of any instance in the history of the AS game where a player's agent files an injunction on behalf of the player for not being selected to the AS game. It's ludicrous.

Well it's probably a good thing Lynn got picked, because with the regression coming his way- the last three starts have been *awesome*- he isn't likely to see many more chances.

MikeThierry
07-03-2012, 05:26 PM
Again, completely missing the point.

Of course it's LaRussa's choice, that he didn't choose Cueto isn't what people are complaining about. It's why he didn't pick Cueto. His excuse is beyond stupid.

LaRussa said Cueto would have probably made the team, had he not been pitching on Sunday. However, if LaRussa really thought Cueto deserved to go, he can't use the fact he was pitching on Sunday as a reason not to pick him. In fact, because Cueto is starting in Sunday, it gives LaRussa an opportunity to pick him, and then replace him on the roster with someone else.

As for the grievance, money is at stake here, and any and every agent would have and should have filed a grievance. That's their job.

Let's look at the rule again:


(ii) Sunday Pitcher Rule. Any starting pitcher elected or selected to the All-Star team who makes a start on the Sunday immediately preceding the All-Star Game (“Sunday Pitcher”) shall have the option to participate or not participate in the All-Star Game. If such starting pitcher elects to participate in the All-Star Game, he will not be permitted to pitch for more than one inning, and he may also inform his manager that he should be removed from the game if he reaches a certain pitch count (irrespective of whether he has completed one inning), provided such pitch count is reasonable. If a Sunday Pitcher who was originally named to the team elects not to participate in the All-Star Game, he will be replaced on the roster but treated in the same manner as other All-Stars who are excused from participation, and he will be encouraged to attend and be announced at the All-Star Game.

By the rules in place, Cueto can choose to be in the game but only be available to pitch for an inning. There is no doubt in my mind that Cueto would select to play in the game. Even if he chooses not to, TLR has to to leave the door open to the chance that he does choose to be in the game. To me, it's a waste of a roster spot to have a starter available for only 1 inning esp. since LaRussa needs pitchers for extra inning in case that happens. Knowing how TLR's mind works after seeing him all these years here in St. Louis, I have a feeling this is more in play than any "payback" Reds fans might thing there is.

Again, you can keep spinning this all you want but it does make Cueto look bad and almost babyish.

Joseph
07-03-2012, 05:29 PM
If either Cueto or Phillips had made it, there's no issue from most Reds fans who are making comments now. LaRussa doesn't care, but he should be aware of that fact.

757690
07-03-2012, 05:33 PM
Let's look at the rule again:



By the rules in place, Cueto can choose to be in the game but only be available to pitch for an inning. There is no doubt in my mind that Cueto would select to play in the game. Even if he chooses not to, TLR has to to leave the door open to the chance that he does choose to be in the game. To me, it's a waste of a roster spot to have a starter available for only 1 inning esp. since LaRussa needs pitchers for extra inning in case that happens. Knowing how TLR's mind works after seeing him all these years here in St. Louis, I have a feeling this is more in play than any "payback" Reds fans might thing there is.

Again, you can keep spinning this all you want but it does make Cueto look bad and almost babyish.

1) Absolutley no way Cueto would agree to pitch. The Reds wouldn't let him, even if he wanted to.

2) All LaRussa had to was call Cueto and explain the situation, and ask him what he wanted to do. There is no reason for secrecy here, no reason to have to take any risks.

reds1869
07-03-2012, 05:40 PM
It will all be better when Cueto has a World Series ring on his finger and puts it next to his Cy Young award at night. Hopefully that will be very soon. :)

muddie
07-03-2012, 05:52 PM
Having read through this entire thread...I have come to the conclusion that TLR has managed to kill two birds with one stone, or should I say two Reds? By acknowledging the fact that he's leaving Cueto off because he's pitching the Sunday prior, be it truth or not, he is taking direct aim at Dusty Baker and his consideration of the AS game and the rotation going in...in other words...calling into question his mangerial preparedness.
The second Red to go down by the same stone is Cueto, who I'm sure TLR has lost no love for. The way I see it, Baker was as much a target of TLR as was Cueto. That's just my take on the situation.
I have every confidence that this thread will continue to be more entertaining than the game itself.
Cueto's comments about TLR must have come out of Sean Avery's playbook. Hard to feel for a guy that makes these kind of comments. Robbed or not, very poor taste on his part.

westofyou
07-03-2012, 05:53 PM
Cueto's comments about TLR must have come out of Sean Avery's playbook. Hard to feel for a guy that makes these kind of comments. Robbed or not, very poor taste on his part.

True dat... high roads are often empty in today's world... but less stuff sticks to your feet whilst traveling them.

919191
07-03-2012, 06:20 PM
I wonder if the grievance was files because Cueto's agent wants a cut of his all star bonus?

MikeThierry
07-03-2012, 06:20 PM
1) Absolutley no way Cueto would agree to pitch. The Reds wouldn't let him, even if he wanted to.

2) All LaRussa had to was call Cueto and explain the situation, and ask him what he wanted to do. There is no reason for secrecy here, no reason to have to take any risks.

Well there is always the possibility he would have agreed to pitch. That's the thing I have learned about TLR all these years. He takes into account every single detail and applies it to his game plan. This guy thinks two moves down the road. You don't have to look further to "Raingate" two years ago to know this.

757690
07-03-2012, 06:27 PM
Well there is always the possibility he would have agreed to pitch. That's the thing I have learned about TLR all these years. He takes into account every single detail and applies it to his game plan. This guy thinks two moves down the road. You don't have to look further to "Raingate" two years ago to know this.

There is no reason to think two moves ahead. There is no game to be won in picking players for a meaningless exhibition game. All the matters is making sure the right guys get picked.

There is no possibility, zero, none, nada, that LaRussa picks Cueto and Cueto decides to pitch, because before picking him, all TRL has to is call Cueto and ask him. If LaRussa is so smart, then why didnt he think of that? That would be thinking two moves ahead.

dougdirt
07-03-2012, 06:28 PM
I wonder if the grievance was files because Cueto's agent wants a cut of his all star bonus?

You don't think Cueto wants his cut of $25,000?

MikeThierry
07-03-2012, 06:33 PM
There is no reason to think two moves ahead. There is no game to be won in picking players for a meaningless exhibition game. All the matters is making sure the right guys get picked.

There is no possibility, zero, none, nada, that LaRussa picks Cueto and Cueto decides to pitch, because before picking him, all TRL has to is call Cueto and ask him. If LaRussa is so smart, then why didnt he think of that? That would be thinking two moves ahead.

Since when did this game become a meaningless exhibition game when now home field advantage is decided by who wins this game? I can say with almost certainty that if the Cardinals didn't have home field advantage last year, I don't think they would have won. Home field advantage in the WS is huge.

MikeThierry
07-03-2012, 06:33 PM
http://sports.yahoo.com/news/braves-chipper-jones-added-nl-215043373--mlb.html

This was just announced that Chipper Jones was added to the roster in place of Kemp.

westofyou
07-03-2012, 06:36 PM
Since when did this game become a meaningless exhibition game when now home field advantage is decided by who wins this game? I can say with almost certainty that if the Cardinals didn't have home field advantage last year, I don't think they would have won. Home field advantage in the WS is huge.

It is a meaningless game, one that has garbage attached to it like the HF advantage

Dumb move on MLBs part

MikeThierry
07-03-2012, 06:54 PM
It is a meaningless game, one that has garbage attached to it like the HF advantage

Dumb move on MLBs part


Agreed but it's still the process that's in place.

westofyou
07-03-2012, 06:56 PM
Agreed but it's still the process that's in place.

Then take the vote away from 8 year olds

Always Red
07-03-2012, 07:02 PM
But he didn't pick Cueto. It's his choice. Simple as that. Until MLB doesn't grant managers the power to choose players, people have to live with what the manager chooses.



Mike, you are either completely missing or ignoring the point.

True, he did not pick Cueto. OK, no problem other than bruised egos.

But then he gave a reason for not picking him, a reason that he cannot use, one that has been addressed specifically in the rules.

That's the rub.

There's no "fix" nor should there be at this point. LaRussa likes to think he's the smartest man in any room he walks into (funny thing for a mere baseball manager to think), but it looks like he didn't think this through. And I agree, Dusty and Cueto both look bad in this too.

I'm wondering more and more how MLB agreed to have one of its employees put on a St. Louis Cardinals uniform and select players for an ASG anyway. Talk about conflict of interest.

Always Red
07-03-2012, 07:02 PM
Then take the vote away from 8 year olds

My cat voted for Matt Holliday.

westofyou
07-03-2012, 07:09 PM
My cat voted for Matt Holliday.

7,834 times right?

Always Red
07-03-2012, 07:22 PM
7,834 times right?

She got tired before that.

VR
07-03-2012, 09:25 PM
Chipper is the clear leader in the fan voting for the final spot, and yet LaRussa replaces Kemp (Bourn anyone?) with Jones.

Your new fan vote leader? David Freese.

MikeThierry
07-03-2012, 09:27 PM
Chipper is the clear leader in the fan voting for the final spot, and yet LaRussa replaces Kemp (Bourn anyone?) with Jones.

Your new fan vote leader? David Freese.

Yep... it's all a conspiracy. Do you all know who shot JFK too?

MikeThierry
07-03-2012, 09:29 PM
Mike, you are either completely missing or ignoring the point.

True, he did not pick Cueto. OK, no problem other than bruised egos.

But then he gave a reason for not picking him, a reason that he cannot use, one that has been addressed specifically in the rules.

That's the rub.

There's no "fix" nor should there be at this point. LaRussa likes to think he's the smartest man in any room he walks into (funny thing for a mere baseball manager to think), but it looks like he didn't think this through. And I agree, Dusty and Cueto both look bad in this too.

I'm wondering more and more how MLB agreed to have one of its employees put on a St. Louis Cardinals uniform and select players for an ASG anyway. Talk about conflict of interest.

Like I said before, Cueto does have the option to be in the game even with pitching on Sunday. He just can't pitch more than one inning. It would be a complete waste of a roster spot if Cueto and Dusty with his ego decide "yeah, lets stick it to TLR".

Always Red
07-03-2012, 09:32 PM
Like I said before, Cueto does have the option to be in the game even with pitching on Sunday. He just can't pitch more than one inning. It would be a complete waste of a roster spot if Cueto and Dusty with his ego decide "yeah, lets stick it to TLR".

Mike, that's a complete whiff and you know it.

Always Red
07-03-2012, 09:32 PM
Yep... it's all a conspiracy. Do you all know who shot JFK too?

Sure, it was the CIA and Lyndon Johnson. Duh.

MikeThierry
07-03-2012, 09:33 PM
Mike, that's a complete whiff and you know it.

How so when the rules when it's fully in the player's right to play in the game regardless if he pitched Sunday or not. I can re-post the rules here if you want me to.

MikeThierry
07-03-2012, 09:34 PM
You're also kidding yourself if you think Baker has no ego esp. as it pertains to TLR. That whole rivalry was fueled by two huge ego's butting heads all those years.

VR
07-03-2012, 09:36 PM
You're also kidding yourself if you think Baker has no ego esp. as it pertains to TLR. That whole rivalry was fueled by two huge ego's butting heads all those years.

I don't think anyone denies it. We just get tired of Tony's "I'm smarter than everyone else" schtick.

Dusty has no such problem. :beerme:

kaldaniels
07-03-2012, 09:44 PM
LaRussa with the unforced error. Should have kept his mouth shut.

By the letter of the law, perhaps not technically anything wrong with it. But it is certainly worthy of a greivance...and I expect Cueto to win.

Just like the minor league manager who balked away a game...loose lips sink ships. (Though the manager could have been a little more discreet!)

Always Red
07-03-2012, 09:45 PM
How so when the rules when it's fully in the player's right to play in the game regardless if he pitched Sunday or not. I can re-post the rules here if you want me to.

No, in fact Mike, I posted them here first.

If everyone pitches one single inning, how many pitchers do you need?

As you said, rules are rules. TLR did not follow them.

If he didn't want Cueto on the team, then don't name him. But then dont turn around and use the Sunday excuse, for which the rules are clearly set.

BTW, he did the same thing, with the same excuse, for Greinke.

Tony was ignorant of the rules which are in place for just this thing, which is what this all amounts to.

Smartest man in the room, eh?

Mike, your Cardinal is showing. ;)

kaldaniels
07-03-2012, 09:47 PM
Mike, your Cardinal is showing. ;)

Now now, this is a family forum.

Always Red
07-03-2012, 09:52 PM
You're also kidding yourself if you think Baker has no ego esp. as it pertains to TLR. That whole rivalry was fueled by two huge ego's butting heads all those years.

You didn't quote anyone there, Mike, but if you are referring to me, then you haven't read this thread.

I am quite enjoying the TLR/ Dusty Baker throw down. Neither are politically correct, and it's obvious the men do not like each other. It makes for great theater. Neither Dusty Baker, nor Johnny Cueto, came off well by their comments. The only one who did was Brandon Phillips, who said nothing.

Btw, Mike, I really do think Matt Holliday deserves to be on the NL AllStar team.

My points are not anti- Cardinal. It's specifically TLR.

RedlegJake
07-04-2012, 03:43 AM
I haven't commented here yet. Since manages started selecting pitchers and fans picked players - heck even when fans were out and the managers and players picked the players there have been glaring snubs but managers have always stacked their own players on the team. Always. And fans have managed in some years to vote in their players like the famous Reds All Star game that ended fan voting for a time. Get over it. LaRussa is a jerk. His mistake was opening his mouth. People get left off. Big deal. There are only so many spots, 16 teams and everyone has to be represented. I'm amazed at how big this has gotten.

Tony Cloninger
07-04-2012, 09:35 AM
What's up with Cueto's remark about going out with one of TLRs girlfriends?

http://cincinnati.com/blogs/reds/


I did not like that one myself.....I mean come on Cueto.....you have a pretty good idea what the issue COULD Be....yet you want to play dumb?
Just state what happened was a big mistake and you lost your head....you hope it does not get held against you the rest of your career.
I see a lot of Reds fans just being oblivious as to why they're would still be some hard feelings over there.

mth123
07-04-2012, 10:14 AM
I did not like that one myself.....I mean come on Cueto.....you have a pretty good idea what the issue COULD Be....yet you want to play dumb?
Just state what happened was a big mistake and you lost your head....you hope it does not get held against you the rest of your career.
I see a lot of Reds fans just being oblivious as to why they're would still be some hard feelings over there.

Agreed. I'm not a huge fan of Larussa or some of his ex-players, but the Reds acted like jerks during that ordeal in 2010 and bringing it up again now is pretty classless. Some other pretty deserving pitchers like Voglesong, Grienke and McDonald were passed over as well. It happens every year. I don't like the Reds whining about it.

RedlegJake
07-04-2012, 01:12 PM
The Reds are doing exactly what they accuse the Redbirds of doing and I don't like it. Quit your darn crying boys and suck it up and play baseball. Right now I'm not too proud of this team. Acting like the freaking Cubs or the Cardinals and TLR.

kaldaniels
07-04-2012, 01:41 PM
I don't care about Cueto actually going to the game, but LaRussa cost him some cash for a reason that doesn't seem right, hence the grievance.

It would be cool (and end this in my eyes) if the Reds stepped up and paid the bonus anyway.

Crumbley
07-04-2012, 03:51 PM
I did not like that one myself.....I mean come on Cueto.....you have a pretty good idea what the issue COULD Be....yet you want to play dumb?
Just state what happened was a big mistake and you lost your head....you hope it does not get held against you the rest of your career.
I see a lot of Reds fans just being oblivious as to why they're would still be some hard feelings over there.
What was this mistake? Defending himself?

Tony Cloninger
07-04-2012, 03:56 PM
What was this mistake? Defending himself?

Defending himself is one thing......continous kicking in the head is a little extreme. He had backup there...it was not like he was alone on an island.

I really have to explain this to you? Maybe you watch too much Ultimate Fighting to not realize this was not the way to handle it defending yourself?

And now to continue to act like he does not know WHY he is not exactly a favorite of certain people from that team?

Tony Cloninger
07-04-2012, 03:59 PM
You're also kidding yourself if you think Baker has no ego esp. as it pertains to TLR. That whole rivalry was fueled by two huge ego's butting heads all those years.


I think the feud goes back to when Dusty ended his career in OAK back in 1986.
I think he was one of those, like Ozzie Smith....who thought TLR was full of S....and did not like his non-communication skills and lack of respect for the vets.

So....the monster of vet love was thus borne during one long summer of '86.

Crumbley
07-04-2012, 04:03 PM
Defending himself is one thing......continous kicking in the head is a little extreme. He had backup there...it was not like he was alone on an island.

I really have to explain this to you? Maybe you watch too much Ultimate Fighting to not realize this was not the way to handle it defending yourself?

And now to continue to act like he does not know WHY he is not exactly a favorite of certain people from that team?
Cueto wasn't sitting on his couch watching a television. He's in the moment, it's a fight. You pin a guy into a corner, you can't cry about what happens. I mean, you can. But you shouldn't.

Tony Cloninger
07-04-2012, 04:08 PM
Cueto wasn't sitting on his couch watching a television. He's in the moment, it's a fight. You pin a guy into a corner, you can't cry about what happens. I mean, you can. But you shouldn't.

Again...only reason why you are justifying his method of defending himself is beacuse of who he plays for. I am not going to do it and he was not cornered in a dark alley by the Jets with no backup.

Crumbley
07-04-2012, 04:31 PM
Again...only reason why you are justifying his method of defending himself is beacuse of who he plays for. I am not going to do it and he was not cornered in a dark alley by the Jets with no backup.
It's really impressive how acutely aware of my various motives and agendas you seem to be. Almost chilling. I'd start playing the stock market.

Tony Cloninger
07-04-2012, 04:33 PM
It's really impressive how acutely aware of my various motives and agendas you seem to be. Almost chilling. I'd start playing the stock market.

What in the world are you talking about? You sound paranoid.

I do not know your motives or agenda at all. It's obvious we all defend our favorite team or players more and sometimes without any objectivity...... that's just human nature, not some agenda I think you are on.

Your sarcasm is duly noted Senator McCarthy.

Crumbley
07-05-2012, 01:42 PM
Again...only reason why you are justifying his method of defending himself is beacuse of who he plays for.
You did type this, right? Maybe your account was hacked. Anyway, PM me if you have any more theories.

Tony Cloninger
07-05-2012, 06:38 PM
You did type this, right? Maybe your account was hacked. Anyway, PM me if you have any more theories.

Are you looking to pick a fight with me? Judging by your condescending tone about being hacked and PM with theories......I really do not see what your trying to do?

I answered your question when you 1st responded....and I gave you my opinion....yet you want to continue. Find someone else to play with...please. Thanks

MikeThierry
07-06-2012, 05:42 PM
Matt Holliday replaces Molina in the AS game due to Yadi going on the bereavement list.

Always Red
07-06-2012, 07:36 PM
La Russa blocking Cueto from All-Star Game is bad, but lying about why is worse

By Gregg Doyel



http://www.cbssports.com/mlb/story/19515935/la-russa-blocking-cueto-from-all-star-game-is-bad-but-lying-about-why-is-worse

MikeThierry
07-06-2012, 07:49 PM
I don't know if TLR checked with Dusty to make sure it was ok to replace Yadi with Matt Holliday.

Always Red
07-06-2012, 08:00 PM
I don't know if TLR checked with Dusty to make sure it was ok to replace Yadi with Matt Holliday.

Mikie, your Cardinal is showing again....:D

757690
07-06-2012, 08:02 PM
I don't know if TLR checked with Dusty to make sure it was ok to replace Yadi with Matt Holliday.

:laugh:

That's really funny. I just wish TRL had a similar sense of humor.

cincrazy
07-06-2012, 09:17 PM
The fact that I agree with something Gregg Doyel wrote makes me want to jump off a tall building while shooting myself.

Always Red
07-06-2012, 09:20 PM
The fact that I agree with something Gregg Doyel wrote makes me want to jump off a tall building while shooting myself.

I hear you: I was listening to Tracey Jones today while driving home, nodding my head in agreement. When I realized what I was doing, I immediately confessed and felt need for reparation.