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View Full Version : Going forward, how would you change this team?



Dan
07-02-2012, 07:17 AM
I used the term 'change' rather than 'fix' since I'm not sure a first place team actually needs fixing. But this team could be better, with some subtle changes. I'm wondering what suggestions people have in that regard.

For me, this is what I would do:

* Ludwick goes to FT in LF and moves to cleanup in the batting order
* Rolen retires (won't happen) or gets released (again, probably won't happen) or goes on the DL until September (maybe)
* If Rolen doesn't go then Cairo needs to
* Frazier goes back to FT at 3b
* Reds trade (Phipps & Sulbarin?) for Bryan Lahair from the cubs (he can back up at LF, RF, and 3b, and provide pop off the bench)
*Phillips goes back to leading off

Right now I wouldn't change the pitching, though I wouldn't mind seeing another starter with major league experience brought in at AAA. Reds starters have made every start so far this season, but it would be amazing if that continued the rest of the year. If I was going to trade for a starter, my target would be Clayton Richard from San Diego. He's got a 2/1 GB/FB ratio for his career.

Lineup:
Phillips
Stubbs
Votto
Ludwick
Bruce
Frazier
Cozart
Mesigan

Bench:
Lahair
Rolen/Cairo
Valdez
Heisey
Haniraco

Vottomatic
07-02-2012, 08:44 AM
Make it better?

Higher OBP hitters in the 1 & 2 spots. A legit cleanup hitter behind Votto.

Rolen (retires). Frazier full time at 3B.

I might still tweak the bullpen. Seems like Ondrusek is struggling lately.

jhu1321
07-02-2012, 08:47 AM
Make it better?

Higher OBP hitters in the 1 & 2 spots. A legit cleanup hitter behind Votto.

Rolen (retires). Frazier full time at 3B.

I might still tweak the bullpen. Seems like Ondrusek is struggling lately.

I think a legit cleanup hitter solves both problems. Allows BP to move to leadoff and Cozart down to 6-7.

oneupper
07-02-2012, 10:07 AM
The whole "Stubbs can hit in the two-hole" thing was small sample size. Now he's down to .640 OPS in that spot for the year.

Vottomatic
07-02-2012, 10:54 AM
I think a legit cleanup hitter solves both problems. Allows BP to move to leadoff and Cozart down to 6-7.

Yeah, I can agree with that.

mdccclxix
07-02-2012, 11:11 AM
I wonder what Fellhauer would do making the jump. His splits vs RHP this year are among the best in the minors:

.325 /.415 /.433 /.848

with a K and BB rate both around 13%.

Dan
07-02-2012, 11:17 AM
The whole "Stubbs can hit in the two-hole" thing was small sample size. Now he's down to .640 OPS in that spot for the year.

Actually he's OPS'ing .808 (http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/split.cgi?id=stubbdr01&year=2012&t=b#lineu) for the year in the 2-hole.

vic715
07-02-2012, 11:18 AM
Trade for Dexter Fowler,but that won't happen so moving Ludwick to the cleanup slot is a good idea but I doubt that happens either.Fix the bench and maybe get another reliable reliever for the stretch.

oregonred
07-02-2012, 11:34 AM
First wave the magic wand to dispense pixie dust and make the ouchie in Joey's knee better...

Then move Ludwick to cleanup and Phillips to leadoff. Cozart to the two hole and Stubbs back to 7th. Heisey back to 2 games a week spelling Ludwick and Stubbs. Frazier as your fulltime 3B. Walt working the phones to find a couple of LH bats for the bench one for the LF/CF mix.

Phillips
Cozart
Votto
Ludwick
Bruce
Frazier
Stubbs
Mesoranigan

Kc61
07-02-2012, 11:37 AM
Short term. Obvious need is OBP and hitting vs. righty pitching. One solution is to accquire DeJesus or Seth Smith.

If Rolen hangs them up, this acquisition can replace Scott on the roster. If not, trade off a current outfielder such as Heisey. DeJesus can play CF so he works well if Heisey is gone.

Longer term. Acquire a RHH cleanup hitter who hits both righty and lefty pitching well.

Pitching. Cueto, Leake, and Latos are mainstays IMO. Figure out ways to improve the Bailey and Arroyo slots whether it be Chapman starting or trades to upgrade rotation.

Bench. Should have a solid lefty pinch hitter on the bench at some point. When Cairo's contract is up this year, his replacement should be that guy.

Bullpen: After this season figure out Chapman's role and if he is a starter either acquire a closer, re-sign Madson to close, or convert someone in-house to close games. Plenty of bullpen depth, especially with the lefty reliever at AAA Joseph soon to arrive.

redsfaninbsg
07-02-2012, 11:40 AM
Call me crazy but, I want another starter. I want World Series banners and I don't think trotting one of Arroyo, Bailey, or Leake out there in game three is going to get it done. U say this because one pitcher can make a much bigger difference in the playoffs than one bat.

Kc61
07-02-2012, 11:42 AM
Call me crazy but, I want another starter. I want World Series banners and I don't think trotting one of Arroyo, Bailey, or Leake out there in game three is going to get it done. U say this because one pitcher can make a much bigger difference in the playoffs than one bat.

I agree but I wouldn't be so fast to get rid of Mike Leake. He is still young and inexperienced. He tends to start seasons slowly, which must be fixed.

But I want him on the team. I think he'll be really good even though he's not a fireballer.

HotCorner
07-02-2012, 12:23 PM
Acquire Dexter Fowler or David DeJesus for leadoff solution. Move Cozart to #2 (OBP: .431 | OPS 1.016 in #2 spot - small sample size), BP stays at #4 and Stubbs to #7. Respective OBP's this season for Fowler and DeJesus while hitting in the #1 spot: .424 and .381

OR

Acquire Carlos Quentin for cleanup solution and move BP back to #1, Cozart to #2 and Stubbs to #7. Quentin's OPS this season while hitting in the #4 spot: 1.068.

AND

Start the ToddFather at 3B with Rolen as backup or pinch hitter/defensive replacement.

Acquire Bryan LaHair for lefty bat and position flexibility. Makes bench better. DFA Miguel Cairo.

Acquire another starter w/ proven record with Bailey as the odd man out.

oneupper
07-02-2012, 12:45 PM
Actually he's OPS'ing .808 (http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/split.cgi?id=stubbdr01&year=2012&t=b#lineu) for the year in the 2-hole.

You're correct. Not sure what yahoo was showing me back then.

Rojo
07-02-2012, 12:52 PM
Stubbs/Heisey/Cozart/Frazier/Ludwick are pretty similar in the batter's box -- righties with low OBP and middling power. Of course Cozart's not going anywhere but I'd look at the rest.

reds44
07-02-2012, 01:05 PM
They've gotta find somebody (most likely thru trade) to hit and get on base in front of Votto.

Reds1
07-02-2012, 02:04 PM
I believe the Reds will need another starter before this year is over. I think the Reds are one of two teams to have the same starting 5 all year. That just doesn't happen. I think the pen is fine and with JJ Hoover in the minors they have some depth. This team is week on lefties so I would like to see a trade or pick up of a lefty. Long term 3B needs to be addresses. I like Heisey and others, but need an OBP guy very badly to hit 1st or 2nd or two guys. I'm trying to be realistic though we need a 3-4 pitcher type guy for depth and at least one lefty and some OBP. Not sure if these types of players are availalbe, but if I'm GM that's what I search for. Hamilton for speed might be nice in a playoff run. :)

Vottomatic
07-02-2012, 03:22 PM
Because the Reds are in first place, it's difficult convincing some fans that this team still needs some changes. And those changes are probably more suited for the offseason.

In the offseason after the 1971 season, Bob Howsam traded Lee May (very popular player) and Tommy Helms to the Astros for Geronimo, Morgan, and Billingham. There were other non-impact players involved, but that's the essential components. Reds had gone from 1st place in 1970, where they had won 102 games, to 4th place in 1971, winning only 79 games.

2B Helms OBP in 1969 - .296, 1970 - .262, 1971 - .289, 1972 (Astros) - .291.
2B Morgan OBP in 1969 (Astros) - .365, 1970 ('Stros) - .383, 1971 ('Stros) - .351, 1972 (Reds) - .417, 1973 - .406, next 3 years - .427, .466, .444.

Baseball Reference.com lists the 1971 outfield as Carbo in LF, Foster in CF, and Rose in RF.
CF Foster OBP in 1971 - .289...........obtained Geronimo in trade in offseason of 1971, which lead to an outfield in 1972 of LF Rose, CF Bobby Tolan, RF Geronimo. Management kept tweaking things until they found the right combination......which obviously lead to the '75 and '76 great teams.

1971 (won 79 games) OBP by starting player
C Bench -.299
1B May - .332
2B Helms - .289
SS Concepcion - .246
3B Perez - .325
LF Carbo - .338
CF Foster - .289
RF Rose - .373

1972 (won 95 games)
C Bench - .379
1B Perez - .349
2B Morgan - .417
SS Concepcion - .272
3B Menke - .322
LF Rose - .383
CF Tolan - .334
RF Geronimo - .344

1973 (won 99 games)
C Bench - .345
1B Perez - .393
2B Morgan - .406
SS Concepcion - .327
3B Menke - .368
LF Rose - .401
CF Geronimo - .266
RF Tolan - .251

1974 (won 98 games)
C Bench - .363
1B Perez - .331
2B Morgan - .427
SS Concepcion - .335
3B Driessen - .347
LF Rose - .385
CF Geronimo - .345
RF Griffey - .333

1975 (won 108 games)
C Bench - .359 OBP
1B Perez - .350
2B Morgan - .466
SS Concepcion - .326
3B Rose - .406
LF Foster - .356
CF Geronimo - .327
RF Griffey - .391

For you young people that weren't alive, those teams typically had Rose, Morgan, Griffey batting 1, 2, 3........take a look at those OBP's.

1976 (won 102 games)
C Bench - .348
1B Perez - .328
2B Morgan - .444
SS Concepcion - .335
3B Rose - .404
LF Foster - .364
CF Geronimo - .382
RF Griffey - .401

2012
C Hanigan - .356
1B Votto - .471
2B Phillips - .329
SS Cozart - .290
3B Frazier - .337, Rolen .243
LF Ludwick - .315, Heisey .303
CF Stubbs - .304
RF Bruce - .326

Vottomatic
07-02-2012, 03:22 PM
n/m

Triple post unintentionally.

Vottomatic
07-02-2012, 03:22 PM
n/m

Unintentional triple post.

RedlegJake
07-02-2012, 03:28 PM
Reds have starting depth of the solid but unspectacular kind. Villareal and Hoover are in AAA. I believe both would be adequate for a couple of starts if someone goes down short term. Since Arroyo is unmovable that leaves the only realistic upgrade either Bailey or Leake. I like Leake's moxie and pitching smarts better than Homer's despite Bailey's better raw stuff. If the Reds could pull off a Greinke rental for this year and it didn't cost too much in future players, or at least players that were pretty much blocked (Gregorious and Soto and then an ouch Corcino or Cingrani - I'd do it). The heck with hurt feelings - someone's going to the bullpen in long relief.

I'd put Ludwick in the cleanup slot and playing fulltime in left. BP would go to leadoff. Stubbs would stay in the 2 slot. Cozart would go down to the 7 hole when Hanigan played. 8 hole when Mes played. Navarro would come up for the bench and to allow any catcher not playing to be used as a pinch hitter. Cairo would get his release unless he'd accept being outrighted to Louisville. Rolen would pinch hit and be the backup at third. Frazier would start at third and bat 6th after Bruce. Valdez would be my super sub playing wherever he was needed and pinch hitting. Heisey would start 2x a week in center and left.

Depending on how well Navarro hits and works with the staff I'd decide whether he or Hanigan go to the trade block, either in season or in the winter. Hanigan would offer MUCH more value. I'd be looking to move Heisey or Stubbs, but frankly Heisey is the lesser centerfielder and he's the player I'd try hardest to move. The goals would be a bench replacement for Rolen next year - a high OBP infielder sub, a high upside LF slugger or leadoff candidate to replace Ludwick eventually - a bridge to Gelalich or Winker or Lutz, a lefty bench hitter any position who is proven as a banch player able to come in cold and contribute.

The Reds aren't far off but there are some rearrangements and spare parts needed to address issues. Frustratingly, some of the solutions are there - they just aren't being utilized properly, imo.

Vottomatic
07-02-2012, 03:53 PM
Even if Navarro is hitting well in triple A, I thought he was kind of signed off the scrap heap? And isn't his current triple A season more of an anomaly than the norm for him?

I still think Hanigan is one of the most underrated catchers in the game. I'd hate to trade him.

toledodan
07-02-2012, 03:57 PM
Actually he's OPS'ing .808 (http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/split.cgi?id=stubbdr01&year=2012&t=b#lineu) for the year in the 2-hole.

and i believe he is striking out less.:thumbup:

camisadelgolf
07-02-2012, 04:43 PM
First things first, I'd DFA Wilson Valdez (or trade him for a bag of chips or whatever the Reds could get for him). I do not want to see Valdez and Miguel Cairo on the same roster. After that, I'd call up Paul Janish.

Then I'd make a run for Gerardo Parra (I still can't figure out why the D-Backs signed Jason Kubel). The nice thing about Parra is that he can hit at the top of the order while playing great defense in both center and left. He's also left-handed and under team control through 2015 if you care about that sort of thing. I have no idea what I'd offer, but I'm sure it would involve a minor league middle infielder.

I would trade away one of Bill Bray, Logan Ondrusek, or Alfredo Simon. They're all eligible for arbitration next season, and the Reds have the depth to spare, so they might as well try to get a useful bench player out of it.

Benihana
07-02-2012, 04:46 PM
Personally, I think the Reds have four needs in this order:

1. A cleanup hitting LF. Preferably one that can hit LH (although Dusty wants to break up the lefties)
2. A high OBP LF or CF. Preferably one that can hit LH
3. Another hammer in the rotation. Because you can never have too many.
4. A proven closer. To move Chapman into the rotation and fulfill #3.

_Sir_Charles_
07-02-2012, 06:40 PM
Personally, I think the Reds have four needs in this order:

1. A cleanup hitting LF. Preferably one that can hit LH (although Dusty wants to break up the lefties)
2. A high OBP LF or CF. Preferably one that can hit LH
3. Another hammer in the rotation. Because you can never have too many.
4. A proven closer. To move Chapman into the rotation and fulfill #3.

I'd go a slightly different route.

1. A cleanup hitting LF. OBP and SLG would be nice. Right handed.
2. A high OBP bench player. IF or OF. Left handed or switch hitter.
3. Phillips to leadoff once the cleanup hitter is achieved.
4. Marshall to closer. Move Chapman to AAA to begin stretching out.

*BaseClogger*
07-02-2012, 10:22 PM
They've gotta find somebody (most likely thru trade) to hit and get on base in front of Votto.

If Alfonso Soriano supposed to be that guy or something? :D

CrackerJack
07-02-2012, 11:33 PM
If they don't score more runs consistently, by adding a bat or two, getting another starter isn't going to matter at all, especially a rental.

toledodan
07-03-2012, 02:06 AM
and i believe he is striking out less.:thumbup:

well, he was striking out less.:bang:

CesarGeronimo
07-03-2012, 10:10 AM
Stubbs/Heisey/Cozart/Frazier/Ludwick are pretty similar in the batter's box -- righties with low OBP and middling power. Of course Cozart's not going anywhere but I'd look at the rest.

Frazier has an OBP of .344 this season in 162 ABs (and OPS of .906!). His career minor league OBP is .353. It's probably wishful thinking to hope he can maintain his current pace, but I wouldn't say that he has low OBP like the others on your list above. Frazier should be hitting second, fourth or sixth in the lineup (assuming Bruce is fifth) based on his performance so far this season.

Vottomatic
07-03-2012, 10:35 AM
Personally, I think the Reds have four needs in this order:

1. A cleanup hitting LF. Preferably one that can hit LH (although Dusty wants to break up the lefties)
2. A high OBP LF or CF. Preferably one that can hit LH
3. Another hammer in the rotation. Because you can never have too many.
4. A proven closer. To move Chapman into the rotation and fulfill #3.

I was thinking about Chapman as a starter last night. Thinking that the Reds might simply may already have another ace starter and don't know it yet. I would love to send him down to Louisville and start stretching him out as a starter. They may find in a month (by the trading deadline) that they don't need to trade for another lights out starter ( and it's debatable that they do now).

Why not bring up Donnie Joseph or Hoover for the 'pen? and move Chapman down?

If Chapman is a lights out starter, think about it come playoff time: Cueto, Latos, Chapman......

Scrap Irony
07-03-2012, 11:19 AM
1. Three-way trade wherein Drew Stubbs is dealt to the Oakland A's, Grant Balfour and Nick Masset (as PTBNL) go to Boston, and Cody Ross comes to Cincinnati. (Reds also grab solid B prospect from Boston.)
2. Install Ludwick as nearly full-time LF, with Heisey taking over one or two days per week. (Heisey also spells Ross once or twice a week.)
3. Install Frazier as nearly full-time 3B, with Rolen taking over as pinch hitter/ defensive replacement late in games. Never sit both Ludwick and Frazier on the same day.
4. Trade Bailey, DiDi Gregorius, Ondrusek, and Bill Bray (PTBNL) for Greinke. (Understand-- Grienke almost assuredly won't sign an extension. He's a hired gun only.) (I'd be willing to deal one of the AA starters if it would get the deal done, but am entirely willing to overpay for the ace.)
5. Bring up JJ Hoover. (With injury or ineffectiveness, Donnie Joseph gets the call for limited innings, never seeing the same team twice.)
6. Install dual closer role, with both Chapman and Marshall getting shots at saves. The other goes out in true fireman role-- Chapman when Ks are needed, Marshall against LH dominant/ breaking ball poor hitters/ lineups.

Phillips 2B
Ross CF
Votto 1B
Ludwick LF
Bruce RF
Frazier 3B
Cozart SS
Mesigan C

Rotation
Greinke
Cueto
Latos
Leake
Arroyo

lidspinner
07-03-2012, 11:22 AM
Here is my going forward....

I try a trade with Atlanta for Bourn.....I dont know what it would take but you must get you a true leadoff hitter to be on base for Votto and BP and Bruce.....I dont know if Stubbs and Heisey and Lotzkar OR Joseph would get it done or not....I would imagine not....but We need a lead off hitter and I am not against over paying to get one.

Next I would start grooming Billy Hamilton right away to be an OF'er and plan on a future OF of Bourn and Billy in LF and CF.....I know neither is your prototypical LF'er but I will take it.

Next I bat Bourn at the top followed by Frazier then keep the rest the same until Cozart in the 6th hole....Ryan L can go in LF at the least till seasons end and bat 7th....This gives us a .350 OBA guy at the top and will help joey get his RBI's that he deserves.....and leaves us with basically LF as our only hole to fill...that is if Frazier plays 3rd.....if Todd plays LF then our only hole becomes 3rd....pick your poison.

I know its not popular and it wont be liked by all but we get a better defense, better OB guy, and keep the OF warm for BH and keep SS groomed for Didi and move Cozart to 3rd later if his stick forces him in the lineup. ....I know it lacks power, but its a lineup that will beat you to death with speed and a defense that will fundamentally win some games, mainly in the future when guys start moving up the ladder.

Vottomatic
07-03-2012, 12:53 PM
Here is my going forward....

I try a trade with Atlanta for Bourn.....I dont know what it would take but you must get you a true leadoff hitter to be on base for Votto and BP and Bruce.....I dont know if Stubbs and Heisey and Lotzkar OR Joseph would get it done or not....I would imagine not....but We need a lead off hitter and I am not against over paying to get one.

Next I would start grooming Billy Hamilton right away to be an OF'er and plan on a future OF of Bourn and Billy in LF and CF.....I know neither is your prototypical LF'er but I will take it.

Next I bat Bourn at the top followed by Frazier then keep the rest the same until Cozart in the 6th hole....Ryan L can go in LF at the least till seasons end and bat 7th....This gives us a .350 OBA guy at the top and will help joey get his RBI's that he deserves.....and leaves us with basically LF as our only hole to fill...that is if Frazier plays 3rd.....if Todd plays LF then our only hole becomes 3rd....pick your poison.

I know its not popular and it wont be liked by all but we get a better defense, better OB guy, and keep the OF warm for BH and keep SS groomed for Didi and move Cozart to 3rd later if his stick forces him in the lineup. ....I know it lacks power, but its a lineup that will beat you to death with speed and a defense that will fundamentally win some games, mainly in the future when guys start moving up the ladder.

That's my dream. I hope Hamilton becomes a successful major leaguer, able to bat .280+ and OBP @ .350+, can man CF with the best of them and bat leadoff for the Reds.

CF Hamilton
2B Phillips
1B Votto
3B Frazier or future power hitting LFer
RF Bruce
3B Frazier or lesser hitting LFer
C Hanigan
SS Cozart

Rojo
07-03-2012, 01:04 PM
Frazier has an OBP of .344 this season in 162 ABs (and OPS of .906!). His career minor league OBP is .353. It's probably wishful thinking to hope he can maintain his current pace, but I wouldn't say that he has low OBP like the others on your list above.

In 301 career PA he has a .322 OBP. But, fair enough, he's young and, hopefully, improving. And since he's young, cheap and can play third, Frazier's not someone I'd look to move. But I'd look to bust up the outfielders.

corkedbat
07-03-2012, 10:33 PM
Below are my thoughts on the current 25-man roster (including those on the DL) and most of the top prospects A+ or above. The plan is for the rest of this season and the offseason. By next spring training I would like to see them add a cleanup hitting LF, a CF who can get on base and hit at the top of the oder and a LH bat for the bench. I reduce the bull pen by one and add a sixth bat to the bench.

Untouchable

Joey Votto - the cornerstone. The Reds just paid him a boatload and he's worth every cney.

Jay Bruce - considered a disappointment by some, he and Votto are the only two bats on the roster that can carry a team when hot (and he's under team control). This club needs one more like them, not one less. If you were to deal him you'd just have to find a similar talent to replace him.

Brandon Philips - love BP, but I probably wouldn't have extended him. Having said that though, since they did, I can't see him being dealt. A solid, but not spectacular bat and a spectacular glove. He would probably be to hard to replace even if you could deal him. Leadership and clubhouse presence insure he's a keeper.

Jonny Cueto and Matt Latos - IMO, how far you can go in the postseason hinges largely in the quality of your top three starters. Cueto and Latos are 2/3's of the solution.

Sean Marshall - a consistent lefty reliever who can be dominant at times. Signed to an extension, I can't see him bringing the kind of return fot the Reds. His presence makes it much easier to move Arolidis to the rotation.

In the right deal...

Aroldis Chapman - I love watching Aroldis come out of the pen and blow up the gun. I'd like to keep him around and see how he fits as a starter, but it doesn't appear it will be this season, so if there is tasty enough offer, I'd have to seriously consider it.

Todd Frazier - not listed here because he's a budding superstar, but because of his versatility it would take a special offer. I'd try hard to keep him out of discussion if asomeone else can be substitutes. Even if he isn't the thirdbaseman of the he the kind of mulri-positional glove with pop in his bat that this bench needs.

Devin Mesaraco - could be wrong, but I see him becoming a solid offensive/defensive catcher with more steady playing time. The kind of kid that is probably not going to being the valuein return that he has for the Red.

Zach Cozart - not going to be making anyone forget Barry Larkin, but he solid in the field and I believe his bat will eventually prove to be fairly solid for the position. Even if they find a replacement starter, he'll cheap and a valuable backup. If he's to be dealt, an upgrade needs to be coming from somewhere.

Bronson Arroyo - My first choice to deal, but it would take something very creative to make it happen - especially considering the accelerator clause in his contract (all deferred money payable immediately). Stays by default.

Mike Leake and Homer Bailey - I would be willing to deal one of them for the right deal. Not a Homer hata, I really like both, but if i did have to sacrifice one it would be Homer. Leake is chaeper and Homer will soon start to get expensive. The Reds are not going to be able to keep everyone they might like to and Homer may be one of those tough decisions where the answer is no. Unless they're willing to move Chapman to the rotation though, I probably wouldn't move Leake or Bailey until the offseason. Hopefully Chapman and the four listed next should make it earier.

Ryan Hannigan - I'm fan with hanging onto Hanny the rest of this year or next, but I would deal him if the deal could improve us considerably. I consider Ryan to be a solid catcher and solid cathers always have value. If he helped bring a leadoff or cleanup hitter I'd move him, make Mes the starter and us Navarro as the backup.

Dan Corcino, Tony Cingrani, Kyle Lotzkar, JC Sulbaran - a young quartet of starters that will provide depth and injury insurance as soon as next season. I'd especially try to avoid dealing Corcino or Cingrani and would only deal one if I did. I might not deal either if Chapman is dealt. I would also not part with any more than two of the four.

Jose Arredondo, Alfredo Simon, JJ Hoover, Sam Lecure, Donnie Joseph - all solid relievers, but solid relievers have value. I'd make Lecure and at least one other available. I'd hold off on Joseph unless it meant losing a deal. He makes Bray expendable. Dealing one or two from this group might be easier to part with partly because I would reduce the bullpen by one arm to add another bench bat.

Billy Hamilton - has huge value to this organization, not only for his OBP/base-stealing potential, but because of the buzz that surrounds him. He could be a perfect answer to the Reds leadoff problems and put butts in seats. I'd be willing to deal him, but only for a bonafide cleanup hitter or TOR arm. He would reduce the number of bodies I wouold be willing to offer in a deal by at least one, if not two.

Henry Rodriguez - if not for the injury, it is conceivable that he would have made his debut already this season. With a stong second half, I could easily see him breaking camp with the big club next Spring. I think he has the potential to play 3B and hit at the top of the order, or if not, his switch-hitting bat would be a welcome addition to the bench.

Didi Gregorious - I would readily move him if the deal is right, but he's not without value to the Reds. He might not start, but his LH bat would bring balance to the bench some time in the next year or two He'll be cheaperr than Valdez or Janish, better defensively and possibly offensively.

Daniel Lutz - best corner OF prospect in the upper system. I'd keep him.

David Vidal - thirdbase prospect with some pop - probably worth more to the Reds than his trade value

Ryan Ludwig - probably not going to bring much in return. I'd hang onto him until the end of the year as a 4th OF and RH bench bat.

Bill Bray - is nice to have, but may also have some value as a lefty reliever who can pitch in fairly high-leverage situations/ Keeping him could make it easier to start Chapman, but he'll start getting more expensive, he's injury-prone and Donnie Joseph waits in the wings.

Ryan Madson - I'd like to bring him back on an incentive laden deal (possibly with an option) to help move Chapman to the rotation, but if not retaining him helps clear room for a corner OF, that's fine.

Move them by next Spring

Scott Rolen - love Scotty, but he's toast. If he's not on the DL, he would finish the year as a PH and defensive backup and only a very occasional starter. I'd throw him a retirement bash at the GAB at season's end and I'd try to make him a deal to keep him in the organization in some capacity.

Drew Stubbs - his youth, defensive ability occasional power, might make him attractive to another club. Stubbs will start to get expensive soon and (like Bailey) he's likely to be one that they choose not to keep. If possible I'd move him by ST (even if he were to have a stong second half) and try to add a CF who is capable of getting on base and hitting at the top of the order.

Chris Heisey - might have value as a 3rd or 4th piece in a deal. A change of scenery for Heisey would be do wonders for me.

Miguel Cairo - it's more than time. Frazier and/or HRod are more than capable replacements.

Wilson Valdez - my question all along has been why? Not much better than Paul Janish offensively and much worse defensively. Bring up Janish until Didi is ready.

Homer Bailey - there may not be options to replace him in the rotation right now, but there should be by next spring. I don't really that ready to move him, but the fact that he's showing some signs of maturing coupled with the fact that he's getting more expensive while there are alternatives on the horizon mean that this offseason may be the right time to move him and get decent value.

Nick Massett - better, cheaper options abound. If he can rehab and then show he is healthy, he might have value in n August deal. Maybe forcing another team to take him (as a salary deferrment) in order to get a better prospect drom the Reds.

Neftali Soto - too bad this season's numbers aren't last season's. Not going anywhere with the Reds, Beau Mills can replace is bat at L'Ville and is more likely to possibly play LF as well as 1B.


Any minor leaguer not mentioned is available to sweeteh a deal.

corkedbat
07-03-2012, 10:35 PM
nm

RedlegJake
07-04-2012, 03:11 AM
Guys I could move
Hanigan - Navarro could backup Mesaraco and moving Hanny makes the promotion of Mes easier to swallow for all involved (players and fans). A lot of teams would make Hanigan their #1 catcher. I'd say he has better trade value than a lot of people on RZ expect.
Don't get me wrong - I dearly Hanigan as a grinder and player but its time for the younger more talented Mesaraco to inherit the dish.

Stubbs - I've lost hope he'll ever learn to use his enormous skillsets properly. He is what he is, a sometimes power hitting free swinging strikeout artist who plays almost great defense in center. Just talented enough to maybe attract a team with a hole in center field. Maybe someone thinks they can "fix" him. I think he's less attractive as trade bait than Hanigan. I also think that'll probably shock some of you. His value has dropped a lot - the Reds should moved him last winter, imo. GMs might've believed his flaws were just a bad season. Now they can see it's just Drew being Drew. Still packaged up with someone (reliever, prospect, Hanigan? others) he might make a really attractive deal. Anyhow or way the Reds need to lose his bat - it hurts more than his defense helps at this point. I'd keep Heisey as the CF backup and 4th outfielder. Maybe even the centerfielder for the time being if necessary until Hamilton or LaMarre or Fellhauer can help out. Why keep Heisey instead of Stubbs? Heisey has a etter chance of becoming a hitter than Drew, imo. That and the fact I think Drew has more trade value. Simple. Having both means they are often in the lineup at the same time. 2 holes.
If someone really wanted Heisey though I could flip the scenario to keeping Stubbs and dealing Chris.

Rolen - retire with honors and thank you for 2010. We'd love to have you stay on as an infield coach/minor league roving instructor/whatever. You are a class act but it is time Scott. We've loved watching you play. Now go out with some dignity please. Don't be a sad act like Mays in a Mets uniform or Hank in a Milwaukee uniform barely able to field or a crippled Junior trying to play left. We've seen you fight the pain and the injuries. We respect that. Your body is saying it's time. 5 years from now the Hall awaits. Don't make it any longer.

Cairo. Miguel, it's pretty much the same message as Rolen's. Thank you for being a member of the team. We appreciate you and we'd like to honor you with a reitrement day. Would you like that? Would you rather we call around and find you a position somewhere. We owe you that much. Frankly, Miguel, we think it's time for you, also, though. We have a position open for you if you want to stay in baseball. These young guys could learn a lot from you.

Arroyo - Can't deal him so 2013 is it for him. I'm different from everyone on here. Arroyo is one of my all time favorite Reds. I want to see him to the last pitch he throws for the team. But. 2013 will be it. I hope you are healthy all this year and next because I dig the hell out of watching you pich Bronson. And thanks dude. Its a blast watching you. I'll bet Corcino will take your place without skipping a beat. Hate to say it bro, but I think he'll be better, too.

Cingrani/Sulbaran/Lotzkar/Hoover - 1 or 2 of these prospect pitchers will end up in a deal I bet. There is too much competition and for the first time in forever, too many starters. And more and even better prospects coming behind these guys. Possibly a couple of minor league relievers, too.

Neftali Soto - this is a crisis year. He fades into oblivion (happens all the time) or else he comes back in the second half or next year. Anyway he's totally blocked. Hopefully he hits better in second half and makes himself part of trade discussion. Hey Francisco brought Hoover. A good second half could net something similar.

Valdez - somehow someway the Reds have to get a better option than this. Janish? He'd be an improvement. That is an indictment. Wilson won't be a trade. Simple release. Part of a deal with the other trades needs to be a better backup for Cozart and BP and Frazier. Someone who can hit a bit and not be a big drop-off when in the lineup. Could be Henry Rodriguez if he isn't traded. I'd keep him. He has played 2nd, short and third. He can flat out hit. He'd drop a bit defensively but not a lot. HRod would be the best bat off the bench the Reds have had in a long time.

Chapman - move to the rotation. Simple. Period. If he utterly fails so be it. Move him to the bullpen and you've settled the matter. But it has to be attempted. The talent is just too great to go on without giving him the shot.

Bailey/Leake - one of the two has to move to make room for Chapman. Homer would bring a higher return, imo. Plus he will be getting expensive but he isn't too expensive yet. He is at the exact time to move him before he becomes too expensive to easily move. I know what we're trading but packaged with say Hanigan and a reliever you are sending a team a quality battery and middle reliever all proven major leaguers, none prohibitively expensive. Possibly plus Neftali Soto a slugging prospect 1st baseman. This is an offseason deal and I'd ask for a slugging outfielder preferably righthanded cleanup hitter at a similar or earlier point career wise to Bailey. Who? I haven't researched that but that is the target I'd be looking for when I did research the target(s) I was after.

Ludwick - I'd be tempted to keep him as the 4th OFer if the Reds were left with only one of Stubbs or Heisey and no other CFer. He can't play center but he'd be a great backup for right and left and possibly 1st (don't know if Ryan has ever played there at all - more research). It all depends on how ready the Reds feel LaMarre or Fellhauer are and whether they could come up as a cheap 5th OFer. Somehow the Reds would need another CFer to back up whichever CFer was left after the trade noted above.

Next year my lineup would be

Phillips R 2B
Frazier R 3B HRod switch hits backup
Votto L 1B Beau Mills L backup (also plays 3B very well his original position)
Slugger R LF (traded for)
Bruce L RF Ludwick R backup
Cozart R SS Janish R backup
Mesaraco R C Navarro switch hits backup (Barnhart switch hits AAA)
Heisey R or Stubbs R CF (one of them traded)

Chapman
Cueto
Latos
Arroyo (Corcino in 2014)
Leake (pushed by Cingrani and others in 2014)

Madson (resigned if reasonable)
Ondrusek
Simon
Masset
Bray
Joseph
Marshall

Mills will finally make good on his promise and he has tremendous power. Always has. Plays first and third. Has shoulder problem that will probably limit him to a bench role. Nice pickup by Reds, imo. Will prove to be a good lefty power bat off the bench.

mth123
07-04-2012, 03:50 AM
1. Drew Stubbs and JJ Hoover for Denard Span and some cash to cover some of his deal.
2. Chris Heisey, Nick Christiani and Paul Janish for Will Venable and Mark Kotsay.

Span CF
Phillips 2B
Votto 1B
Ludwick LF
Bruce RF
Frazier 3B
Hanigan/Mesoraco C
Cozart SS

Venable 4th OF (He'd play at least a couple times per week in the 2 hole against RHP with Ludwick sitting and Phillips dropping back to 4th. More often if Ludwick struggles against RHP. He'd play CF and lead-off when Span needs a rest.)
Kotsay LHPH who could get an odd start in the OF on Sunday specials.
Valdes
Rolen/Cairo (these guys can take turns on the DL)

I wouldn't hesitate to use Leake to PH or PR to help lengthen the bench.

The Staff would reman unchanged with Ondrusek on the bubble when Masset returns. Lecure would be my first alternative for the rotation if a starter goes down with Villareal the other option. Assummg Masset is back and you could swing Lecure into the rotation, you'd have Ondrusek, Joseph and Villareal as options in AAA for depth.

Reds/Flyers Fan
07-04-2012, 08:55 AM
1. Drew Stubbs and JJ Hoover for Denard Span and some cash to cover some of his deal.
2. Chris Heisey, Nick Christiani and Paul Janish for Will Venable and Mark Kotsay.

Span CF
Phillips 2B
Votto 1B
Ludwick LF
Bruce RF
Frazier 3B
Hanigan/Mesoraco C
Cozart SS

Venable 4th OF (He'd play at least a couple times per week in the 2 hole against RHP with Ludwick sitting and Phillips dropping back to 4th. More often if Ludwick struggles against RHP. He'd play CF and lead-off when Span needs a rest.)
Kotsay LHPH who could get an odd start in the OF on Sunday specials.
Valdes
Rolen/Cairo (these guys can take turns on the DL)

I wouldn't hesitate to use Leake to PH or PR to help lengthen the bench.

The Staff would reman unchanged with Ondrusek on the bubble when Masset returns. Lecure would be my first alternative for the rotation if a starter goes down with Villareal the other option. Assummg Masset is back and you could swing Lecure into the rotation, you'd have Ondrusek, Joseph and Villareal as options in AAA for depth.

What team would want Stubbs? The guy can't hit. Even batting in front of Joey Votto in one of the most pitch-friendly lineup spots in baseball, he can't hit. I doubt the Twins or anyone else would be calling Walt asking for Drew.

mth123
07-04-2012, 09:11 AM
What team would want Stubbs? The guy can't hit. Even batting in front of Joey Votto in one of the most pitch-friendly lineup spots in baseball, he can't hit. I doubt the Twins or anyone else would be calling Walt asking for Drew.

Could be right.

RedlegJake
07-04-2012, 01:16 PM
There are teams that would want Stubbs. He has extreme talent. Someone will think they can "fix" his issues. Gathright, Patterson, the game is littered with names of guys who the first time they are traded bring a good return because that first team thinks a change of scenery or a fix will bring out the best. And Stubbs is tons more talented than most of those kind of guys.

Vottomatic
07-04-2012, 02:18 PM
Meh. I'm not trading Ryan Hanigan. Underrated, IMO.

Untouchable major league hitters:
Votto, Phillips, Cozart, Bruce, Hanigan, Frazier (we have no 3Baseman for the future)

Untouchable major league pitchers:
Cueto, Latos, Marshall, Arredondo

In the right deal:
Chapman, Mez, Leake, Bailey, Ondrusek, Bray, Hoover

In a heartbeat:
Stubbs, Heisey, Ludwick, Arroyo, Rolen, Cairo, Valdez, Simon, LeCure

I hate to trade Cingrani or Corcino. The other guys - Lotzkar, Villarreal, Sulbaran are fair game for me.

I hate to trade Lutz, but I'd do it in the right deal. I'd even trade Hamilton if some team was willing to overpay to get him.

But I was really hoping Hamilton would make it to the major leagues and be the starting CFer some day, and Lutz would be the starting LFer. And that Cingrani or Corcino would replace Arroyo.

RedlegJake
07-04-2012, 03:30 PM
If you believe Mesaraco is the future catcher then trading Hanigan makes a ton of sense. Finding an adequate backup to play 30-40 games is not tough. Navarro can do that until Barnhart or Peacock or someone else is ready. Right now Hanigan has a lot of trade value.

_Sir_Charles_
07-04-2012, 05:31 PM
If you believe Mesaraco is the future catcher then trading Hanigan makes a ton of sense. Finding an adequate backup to play 30-40 games is not tough. Navarro can do that until Barnhart or Peacock or someone else is ready. Right now Hanigan has a lot of trade value.

But you just said it yourself, we'd have to find an adequate backup catcher. Hanigan is it. Once they feel Devin is ready, he'll step to the forefront. Hanigan is signed to a very team-friendly deal and he provides excellent benefits.

I vote for the status quo for now, switching roles once Devin is ready and then pushing Devin into the full-time role shortly thereafter with Hanny as a solid backup.

corkedbat
07-04-2012, 09:35 PM
But you just said it yourself, we'd have to find an adequate backup catcher. Hanigan is it. Once they feel Devin is ready, he'll step to the forefront. Hanigan is signed to a very team-friendly deal and he provides excellent benefits.

I vote for the status quo for now, switching roles once Devin is ready and then pushing Devin into the full-time role shortly thereafter with Hanny as a solid backup.

It all depends. I keep Hanny for the remainder of his contract, unless someone wants him as part of a package for a very good return. If the deal were good enough, I'd have no problem starting Mes and using Navarro as the backup.

mdccclxix
07-05-2012, 05:46 PM
To the surprise of no one, the Reds have the least number of left handed/switch hitters in baseball - 2. The Angels have no LHB, but 5 switch hitters. Texas has 3 LHB and no switch hitters. The Reds also have the most RHB at 11.

http://espn.go.com/mlb/stats/rosters/_/sort/left_handed_batters/order/false

Kc61
07-05-2012, 05:51 PM
To the surprise of no one, the Reds have the least number of left handed/switch hitters in baseball - 2. The Angels have no LHB, but 5 switch hitters. Texas has 3 LHB and no switch hitters. The Reds also have the most RHB at 11.

http://espn.go.com/mlb/stats/rosters/_/sort/left_handed_batters/order/false

Here's a trivia question for which i do not have the answer.

When was the last time the Reds had a switch hitter (not a pitcher) on the ballclub?

I would not count somebody who got a cup of coffee in September or passed through for a few weeks.

I cannot remember one. It's like they are allergic to switch hitters. And semi-allergic to lefty hitters.

If anyone can remember a switch hitter on the Reds, please remind me. Thank you.

P.S. Minor leaguers like Grandal and Hamilton do NOT count.

Kc61
07-05-2012, 05:55 PM
To answer my own question, Drew Sutton played for the Reds in 2009 and had 66 at bats. He's the only switch hitter I can think of in recent times. He had 3 at bats for them in 2010 before moving on to a different team.

Anyone with a more substantial role than Drew? Or more current?

RedlegJake
07-05-2012, 05:59 PM
Well KC, they could bring up HRod and Navarro and they'd have 2. I'm darn certain HRod could outhit Cairo right now, and Navarro would free Hanigan or Mes to PH. Plus it would gain 2 lefty bats for the bench or the field. Can't remember the last switchie that played an extensive role....

mdccclxix
07-05-2012, 06:02 PM
Javy Valentien, Wilkin Castillo

mdccclxix
07-05-2012, 06:03 PM
Felipe Lopez, Ray Olmedo

RedlegJake
07-05-2012, 06:08 PM
I clean forgot about Javy! Pornstache! How could I forget him?

cincrazy
07-05-2012, 06:13 PM
D'Angelo Jimenez is another one that comes to mind. But there haven't been many. And the few we've had haven't been any good.

Kc61
07-05-2012, 06:17 PM
Javy Valentien, Wilkin Castillo

I think Javy Valentin is a winning selection. Was a substantial player. Played with Reds through 2008. Felipe Lopez was traded from the Reds in 2006.

So it's been 3.5 seasons without a meaningful switch hitter. And, if you want to talk everyday starting players (which Valentin was not), it's probably Lopez about six years ago.

camisadelgolf
07-05-2012, 06:30 PM
Don't forget about Mark Bellhorn.

Vottomatic
07-05-2012, 06:34 PM
Pete Rose? :eek:

pahster
07-05-2012, 06:39 PM
Dmitri Young switch hit - and did so well -, but that was a long time ago.

cincrazy
07-05-2012, 07:23 PM
Don't forget about Mark Bellhorn.

How dare you. Just when I HAD forgotten about Mark Bellhorn.

camisadelgolf
07-05-2012, 08:22 PM
How dare you. Just when I HAD forgotten about Mark Bellhorn.
In that case, you'll love this post: http://www.redszone.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2644595&postcount=17

cincrazy
07-05-2012, 09:05 PM
In that case, you'll love this post: http://www.redszone.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2644595&postcount=17

I'm battling a double ear infection and vertigo. And both of those are more pleasant than reading that post.

Personally, I really miss Tony Womack.

mdccclxix
07-06-2012, 02:26 PM
Bold moves:

Leake, Heisey and Bailey for Garza and Dejesus.
Move Chapman to rotation.
Stephanson and Rodriguez for Headley and Street.
Call up Joseph

Dejesus L
Headley S
Votto L
Phillips R
Bruce L
Stubbs R
Cozart R
C
P

Cueto
Latos
Garza
Arroyo
Chapman

CL Street
Marshall
Bray
Joseph
Arredondo
Simon
Lecure

camisadelgolf
07-06-2012, 02:46 PM
Leake, Heisey and Bailey for Garza and Dejesus.
The Cubs would hang up first.

Move Chapman to rotation.
I'm all for it happening before the start of next year, but I have questions about him being prepared enough at this current moment.

Stephanson and Rodriguez for Headley and Street.
I think the Padres would seriously consider accepting that. I think you're under-selling Stephenson though.

Call up Joseph
I like it. The bullpen doesn't need much help right now, but I'm on the bandwagon that says the Reds should make an effort to trade one of Bray, Ondrusek, or Simon.

Always Red
07-06-2012, 02:53 PM
Because the Reds are in first place, it's difficult convincing some fans that this team still needs some changes. And those changes are probably more suited for the offseason.

In the offseason after the 1971 season, Bob Howsam traded Lee May (very popular player) and Tommy Helms to the Astros for Geronimo, Morgan, and Billingham. There were other non-impact players involved, but that's the essential components. Reds had gone from 1st place in 1970, where they had won 102 games, to 4th place in 1971, winning only 79 games.

2B Helms OBP in 1969 - .296, 1970 - .262, 1971 - .289, 1972 (Astros) - .291.
2B Morgan OBP in 1969 (Astros) - .365, 1970 ('Stros) - .383, 1971 ('Stros) - .351, 1972 (Reds) - .417, 1973 - .406, next 3 years - .427, .466, .444.

Baseball Reference.com lists the 1971 outfield as Carbo in LF, Foster in CF, and Rose in RF.
CF Foster OBP in 1971 - .289...........obtained Geronimo in trade in offseason of 1971, which lead to an outfield in 1972 of LF Rose, CF Bobby Tolan, RF Geronimo. Management kept tweaking things until they found the right combination......which obviously lead to the '75 and '76 great teams.

1971 (won 79 games) OBP by starting player
C Bench -.299
1B May - .332
2B Helms - .289
SS Concepcion - .246
3B Perez - .325
LF Carbo - .338
CF Foster - .289
RF Rose - .373

1972 (won 95 games)
C Bench - .379
1B Perez - .349
2B Morgan - .417
SS Concepcion - .272
3B Menke - .322
LF Rose - .383
CF Tolan - .334
RF Geronimo - .344

1973 (won 99 games)
C Bench - .345
1B Perez - .393
2B Morgan - .406
SS Concepcion - .327
3B Menke - .368
LF Rose - .401
CF Geronimo - .266
RF Tolan - .251

1974 (won 98 games)
C Bench - .363
1B Perez - .331
2B Morgan - .427
SS Concepcion - .335
3B Driessen - .347
LF Rose - .385
CF Geronimo - .345
RF Griffey - .333

1975 (won 108 games)
C Bench - .359 OBP
1B Perez - .350
2B Morgan - .466
SS Concepcion - .326
3B Rose - .406
LF Foster - .356
CF Geronimo - .327
RF Griffey - .391

For you young people that weren't alive, those teams typically had Rose, Morgan, Griffey batting 1, 2, 3........take a look at those OBP's.

1976 (won 102 games)
C Bench - .348
1B Perez - .328
2B Morgan - .444
SS Concepcion - .335
3B Rose - .404
LF Foster - .364
CF Geronimo - .382
RF Griffey - .401

2012
C Hanigan - .356
1B Votto - .471
2B Phillips - .329
SS Cozart - .290
3B Frazier - .337, Rolen .243
LF Ludwick - .315, Heisey .303
CF Stubbs - .304
RF Bruce - .326


That's a nice list, and a reminder of how good the BRM and the Great Eight really were.

But the actual, real, untold secret of the Reds success during those halcyon days was....pitching.

The Reds have normally almost always been a very good hitting franchise; which is maybe why we are all so frustrated right now, because we're getting excellent pitching these days.

Just for fun, here is a list, from 1969- 1979, of where the Reds finished in the NL in runs given up/game. There were 12 teams in the NL in those days.

1969- 11th
1970- 4th
1971- 3rd (massive changes on offense followed this year)
1972- 3rd
1973- 4th
1974- 3rd
1975- 3rd
1976- 5th
1977- 8th
1978- 10th
1979- 4th (Division winner under John McNamara)

No question that the BRM doesn't exist without all of the HoF'ers on the team (both those voted in so far and not), but this era also coincides with one of the best runs of pitching the Reds have ever had as a franchise.

mdccclxix
07-06-2012, 03:01 PM
The Cubs would hang up first.


Call them back and add more.

RedlegJake
07-06-2012, 03:28 PM
Call them back and add more.

The Cubs are more in the hunt for prospects - good ones, not necessarily right in the cusp but fairly close. AA would work. They'd almost certainly take Leake as part of the deal but wouldn't want Bailey. His timeline doesn't match theirs. I doubt they'd really be interested in Heisey either but maybe. I think they'd be poring over the Pensacola roster going - Corcino, Cingrani, LaMarre etc....

defender
07-09-2012, 02:17 PM
I put this here, because I don't have a specific trade target.

Replace Heisey with a LH hitter that can play at least center and left. Let that guy (like Heisey) be in the mix for left and center. Heisey has not won a starting job, and the Reds do not need another RH bat on the bench.

Even though I am assuming they can't get a guy to replace Ludwick or Stubbs, I think a lefty on the bench/starting 3-4 times a week would be a significant improvement.

Will M
07-09-2012, 04:58 PM
Matt Garza's career xFIP is 4.1
Is he really an upgrade over Bailey or Leake?

I do like DeJesus. The Reds reaaaally need lefty hitters who can get on base.

CrackerJack
07-09-2012, 05:31 PM
I don't understand the urgency to move Chapman to the rotation at this point.

And trading Leake is just insane for a team in this market.

corkedbat
07-09-2012, 10:29 PM
While I desperately want a cleanup hitter, I don't expect Waltto go all out and acquire upgrades at two starting spots. If it comes right down to it, I'd be OK with adding a lefty bat who can play center and platoon with Stubbs and hit second (I'd move DatDude to leadoof and hit either Frazier or Ludwig fourth). While I'd prefer to see them go hard after Josh Willingham (or a rental of Carlos Quentin at the very least), I'm not holding my breath on Walt making it happen. My main targets would be Dexter Fowler, Dennard Spann, Ben Revere, Chase Headley, Mark Kotsay or Will Venable.

If they don't address the cleanup spot now, I'd definately want to see it by spring. By Opening Day next season I wouldn't mind a 25-man that looks something like:

Joey Votto (L)
Brandon Phillips
Zach Cozart
Todd Frazier
Didi Gregorious (L)
Henry Rodriguez (B)
(Cleanup Hitter)
Drew Stubbs
Jay Bruce (L)
Dexter Folwer (B) (or other LH/SH who can play CF)
Ryan Ludwick
Ryan Hannigan
Devin Mesaraco
Dioner Navarro (B)

Jonny Cueto
Mat Latos
Aroldis Chapman (L)
Bronson Arroyo
Mike Leake
JJ Hoover
Alfredo Simon
Donnie Joseph (L)
Jose Arredondo
Sean Marshall (L)
Ryan Madson

2B Brandon Phillips
CF Drew Stubbs/Dexter Fowler (or other)
1B Joey Votto
LF Josh Willingham (or) Cleanup Hitter TBD
RF Jay Bruce
3B Todd Frazier
CA Devin Mesaracio/Ryan Hanigan
SS Zach Cozart

I don't really want to move Homer, but he'll start to get expensive (as will others inthe rotation), Arroyo isn't going anywhere until after 2013. I really want to see Chapman in the starting lrotation and there are several solid options to replace Bronson in 2014 (Corcino and Cingrani chief among them). I'd use Homer as the key piece to add a big bat in the offseason. I'd try to retain Madson for at least a year to make it easier to transition Aroldis from the pen.