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Reds/Flyers Fan
07-02-2012, 03:56 PM
Strange place for a trade rumor, but from the Cincinnati Business Courier:

http://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/blog/2012/07/reds-rumored-to-be-eyeing-greinke-to.html

Johnny Footstool
07-02-2012, 04:00 PM
Greinke is a great target -- he has stated that he doesn't like the scrutiny he would encounter pitching in a big market, so there is a decent chance that the Reds could sign him to an extension.

camisadelgolf
07-02-2012, 04:03 PM
I think the Brewers made this up in an effort to try to drive up the price for obtaining Greinke.

Benihana
07-02-2012, 04:04 PM
Doesn't seem likely (especially given the source), but I'll play:

How great would it be to have Cueto, Latos and Greinke headlining the rotation for the next 3-5 years?

What would it cost in prospects and money? Would they deal inside the division? How much cheaper (if at all) would he be than Hamels, who seems destined for a big market and a huge deal?

I'm guessing they'd have their pick of one of our AA pitchers + a next-tier hitting prospect like Lutz, H.Rodriguez or Gregorius + a lottery ticket like Duran or Y-Rod. And that may not be enough.

BCubb2003
07-02-2012, 04:09 PM
The story says the Brewers are looking for a shortstop.

Raisor
07-02-2012, 04:12 PM
The story says the Brewers are looking for a shortstop.


And everyone though Walt was crazy for holding onto Paul Janish. Janish for Grienke and we are printing world series tickets for the next 15 years

corkedbat
07-02-2012, 04:14 PM
I'm not against Hamilton in a deal for Greinke, but not as a rental. They would have to be ready to extend him. I still want a bat added to the lineup also.

kaldaniels
07-02-2012, 04:15 PM
I think the Brewers made this up in an effort to try to drive up the price for obtaining Greinke.

Especially if the Cardinals have inquired.

Benihana
07-02-2012, 04:16 PM
The story says the Brewers are looking for a shortstop.

GREGORIUS! (sung to the beat of Aquarius)

Seriously, DiDi + their choice of one Pensacola pitcher seems like a reasonably fair deal. Throw in their choice of Duran or Y-Rod if necessary.

corkedbat
07-02-2012, 04:17 PM
GREGORIUS! (sung to the beat of Aquarius)

Seriously, DiDi + their choice of one Pensacola pitcher seems like a reasonably fair deal. Throw in their choice of Duran or Y-Rod if necessary.

I'd be willing to include Homer too.

Benihana
07-02-2012, 04:18 PM
I'd be willing to include Homer too.

Sure why not- as long as we could extend Greinke.

Scrap Irony
07-02-2012, 04:19 PM
Phil Rodgers said the Brewers would be looking for a shortstop. Billy Hamilton may have enough panache to acquire Greinke by himself. If so, that's certainly an option.

However, most reports insist he's not going to able to stick at SS.

If DiDi Gregorius is the target, there would have to be something else going to the Brew Crew. He's simply not enough, nor is he particularly close, IMO. Maybe a Gregorius/ Soto/ Hoover or Joseph deal gets it done.

If so, that's not bad at all.

What's interesting is whether Milwaukee will ask for Cozart. He might get the deal done by himself; what's more, I think I'd pull that trigger, were I Jocketty.

fearofpopvol1
07-02-2012, 04:22 PM
Doesn't seem likely (especially given the source), but I'll play:

How great would it be to have Cueto, Latos and Greinke headlining the rotation for the next 3-5 years?

What would it cost in prospects and money? Would they deal inside the division? How much cheaper (if at all) would he be than Hamels, who seems destined for a big market and a huge deal?

I'm guessing they'd have their pick of one of our AA pitchers + a next-tier hitting prospect like Lutz, H.Rodriguez or Gregorius + a lottery ticket like Duran or Y-Rod. And that may not be enough.

I wonder if Corcino, Hamilton and Y-Rod would get it done? It would only make sense if Greinke was willing to sign an extension. And I wonder if the Reds could even afford it.

It would be an amazing haul though. The Reds would be well positioned to make the playoffs for years to come. If they make the playoffs, they would be in such great shape.

lollipopcurve
07-02-2012, 04:23 PM
Greinke is on track for a $100+ million dollar contract. Does anyone really think the Reds can afford him? I'd love it, but they've already committed massive amounts of dollars to just a few guys.

reds1869
07-02-2012, 04:26 PM
Greinke is on track for a $100+ million dollar contract. Does anyone really think the Reds can afford him? I'd love it, but they've already committed massive amounts of dollars to just a few guys.

I think for a player like Greinke they would certainly try to find a way. All up to how much Castellini is willing to open up the wallet to win.

Vottomatic
07-02-2012, 04:27 PM
Gregorius and Bailey for Greinke and Braun. :D

Scrap Irony
07-02-2012, 04:28 PM
Cozart, Soto, and Bailey for Greinke and Jeff Bianchi.

Benihana
07-02-2012, 04:28 PM
Greinke is on track for a $100+ million dollar contract. Does anyone really think the Reds can afford him? I'd love it, but they've already committed massive amounts of dollars to just a few guys.

I don't really think the Reds could swallow that kind of dough at this point. But then again, I didn't think they could swallow Votto in March. Or Votto+Phillips in April. Who knows- maybe we get Votto+Phillips+Greinke in July!

reds1869
07-02-2012, 04:29 PM
Cozart, Soto, and Bailey for Greinke and Jeff Bianchi.

I wouldn't mine Bianchi at all.

RedlegJake
07-02-2012, 04:35 PM
Gregorious, Corcino or Cingrani, Soto, HRod

I'd do that deal for Greinke just to rent him for the rest of this season. I would not deal Cozart, or Bailey, or Hamilton unless I could extend him.

jhu1321
07-02-2012, 04:42 PM
Gregorious, Corcino or Cingrani, Soto, HRod

I'd do that deal for Greinke just to rent him for the rest of this season. I would not deal Cozart, or Bailey, or Hamilton unless I could extend him.

No way I do that to rent. I would with the exception of Corcino or Cingrani. He would command too much salary for us to be able to extend him.......

kaldaniels
07-02-2012, 04:43 PM
How big is Casteliini's war chest?

Benihana
07-02-2012, 04:51 PM
Gregorious, Corcino or Cingrani, Soto, HRod

I'd do that deal for Greinke just to rent him for the rest of this season. I would not deal Cozart, or Bailey, or Hamilton unless I could extend him.

Sub Lotzkar for Corcino and drop H-Rod and I'd do that to rent him:

Lotzkar/Cingrani
Gregorius
Soto

for a rental of Greinke. I'd pull the trigger if the Reds are/were confident they could flip Bailey or Arroyo for a cleanup-hitting LF.

It is worth remembering that unfortunately the Reds no longer get draft picks if/when the rental walks.

toledodan
07-02-2012, 04:54 PM
No way I do that to rent. I would with the exception of Corcino or Cingrani. He would command too much salary for us to be able to extend him.......



Zack does want to play in a small market. that will come into play for someone. there is talk here in KC that he may end up back here. he still has his condo at the plaza downtown. i would be pleased if he ended up in cincinnat if we could extend his contract only.

Vottomatic
07-02-2012, 04:58 PM
Gregorius, Lotzkar, Sulbaran, Villareal, Soto for a rental of Greinke.

Then flip Bailey and Heisey to the Twins for Willingham and a prospect.

Chapman and Hoover take over for the vacancies of Greinke and Bailey next season in the starting rotation.

jhu1321
07-02-2012, 04:59 PM
Gregorius, Lotzkar, Sulbaran, Villareal, Soto for a rental of Greinke.

Then flip Bailey and Heisey to the Twins for Willingham and a prospect.

Chapman and Hoover take over for the vacancies of Greinke and Bailey next season in the starting rotation.


You're out of control!


I like it....... :beerme:

lollipopcurve
07-02-2012, 05:08 PM
I don't really think the Reds could swallow that kind of dough at this point. But then again, I didn't think they could swallow Votto in March. Or Votto+Phillips in April. Who knows- maybe we get Votto+Phillips+Greinke in July!

Agreed. I was almost positive Votto would leave. Thing is, I think Greinke would extend in Cincy. Good ballclub, low-pressure market, National League. I just don't see how they'd pony up ace money long-term -- especially when they'd have new contracts to negotiate for Cueto and Latos while Greinke was here.

757690
07-02-2012, 05:21 PM
Extending Greinke could be done if it's short enough. Votto's big money doesn't kick in until 2016. So a three year extension would fit into the budget, possibly. However, I doubt Greinke would want to sign anything shorter than a five year deal.

oregonred
07-02-2012, 05:32 PM
Without an extension this would make no sense and is pure fantasy. And I can't see how the Reds take on another 100M contract over the next 6 seasons given the limited payflex. Arroyo is stuck on the roster in 2013 so that salary can't be moved.

My fear is he ends up a Cardinal in 2013 as a FA and puts a huge brick through the Reds 2013-2015 division window. Would love to see the Reds make a play in the offseason, but I think the wad has been shot with the Phillips/Votto/Bruce extensions.

Will be interesting to see how the deadline market with the changes in free agency comp rules. Huge consequences if you give up the farm for a 2-3 month rental. Reds can't afford to take that chance - even though they'd be odds on favorites to win the division and could match up with anyone in the postseason.

Greinke
Cueto
Latos
Chapman
Leake/Daffy Duck/SpongeBob/Jimmy Haynes...

isn't happening, but would be incredible to think about for the next 3.5 seasons...

Benihana
07-02-2012, 05:34 PM
Without an extension this would make no sense and is pure fantasy. And I can't see how the Reds take on another 100M contract over the next 6 seasons given the limited payflex. Arroyo is stuck on the roster in 2013 so that salary can't be moved.

My fear is he ends up a Cardinal in 2013 as a FA and puts a huge brick through the Reds 2013-2015 division window. Would love to see the Reds make a play in the offseason, but I think the wad has been shot with the Phillips/Votto/Bruce extensions.

Will be interesting to see how the deadline market with the changes in free agency comp rules. Huge consequences if you give up the farm for a 2-3 month rental. Reds can't afford to take that chance - even though they'd be odds on favorites to win the division and could match up with anyone in the postseason.

Greinke
Cueto
Latos
Chapman
Leake/Daffy Duck/SpongeBob/Jimmy Haynes...

isn't happening, but would be incredible to think about for the next 3.5 seasons...

I'd still be OK giving up Gregorius + one of Lotzkar/Cingrani for a three month rental of Greinke. IMO, the Reds would be the team to beat in the NL.

Reds/Flyers Fan
07-02-2012, 05:38 PM
When is Arroyo off the books? And Rolen? That money freed up could help go a long way toward extending Greinke.

Cards have to pay Carpenter, AW, Beltran, Holliday, Molina and some other big contracts.

oregonred
07-02-2012, 05:41 PM
When is Arroyo off the books? And Rolen? That money freed up could help go a long way toward extending Greinke.

Cards have to pay Carpenter, AW, Beltran, Holliday, Molina and some other big contracts.

Berkman is a one year deal and Beltran is a two year deal. Plenty of pay flex and I'm assuming the Cards can play with $20-25M more than the Reds until the next Reds TV contract hits (after 2014?).

Still I'd get creative to find the $15-16M for Greinke the next few seasons. Frazier as a 3B fixture on the cheap will help the cause. Homer would be dealt, probably cut bait with Masset, etc. I think they could do it assuming the payroll can get to 90M next season.

Benihana
07-02-2012, 05:44 PM
When is Arroyo off the books? And Rolen? That money freed up could help go a long way toward extending Greinke.


Unfortunately my guess is the Reds figured that into the Votto and Phillips extensions.

But I've been wrong before, like in the case of those extensions specifically.

oregonred
07-02-2012, 05:49 PM
Wainwright is a FA after 2013. That one will be interesting to watch. Carpenter is off the books after 2013. The upside to not signing Albert is that the Cardinals have incredible payflex after 2013.

Reds could make it work in 2013 and 2014 for sure. 2015 and beyond it would get real interesting and disheartening with Cueto/Latos and Leake all as potential FA after the 2015 season. Unless the knight in shining armor is a massive new TV deal that kicks in beginning in 2015. BTW, we are going to regret that Leake didn't spend 20 days in Louisville last year (I think he spent 15 days) that would have delayed his FA clock another year.

Vottomatic
07-02-2012, 05:49 PM
I just don't see this happening because of the money and in-division trade.

Benihana
07-02-2012, 05:56 PM
BTW, we are going to regret that Leake didn't spend 20 days in Louisville last year (I think he spent 15 days) that would have delayed his FA clock another year.

If true there's really no excuse for that, given that we weren't contending.

I remember when the Brewers sent Hardy down for a couple of days just to delay his clock. There is certainly a precedent for these sorts of things.

oregonred
07-02-2012, 06:03 PM
Looks like the Reds have 74.1M committed to 12 players in 2013. This includes the buyouts for Madsen and Ludwick. So Greinke is a pipedream for beyond 2012 unless the payroll explodes to 100M.

Votto gets $19M next season before his new contract kicks in (12M in 2014 and 14M in 2015). Also Masset is signed for $3.1M so there goes that one. When Arroyo's 11.5M comes off the books in 2014 (why on Earth?) that will help but quickly get absorbed to Cueto and arb eligibles like Latos, Leake, et al.

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/compensation/index.php?team=CIN&cyear=2013

mdccclxix
07-02-2012, 06:14 PM
The Reds owe 70 million before extensions and arbitration. Baseball reference says arb could cost 30 million. Bray is the only 3rd year guy, I'd go with someone else like Joseph. Bailey, Valdez and Janish are arb 2. Notables like Latos, Stubbs, Leake and Heisey are arb 1. Similar to last year's AAA crunch, I think we see lots of churn on the 25 man roster with arrivals from replacements like Joseph, Chapman, perhaps even Lamarre, Rodriguez, or Fellhauer. No way Ludwick or Masset are brought back for their extension prices.

All that said, Greinke would be a great 1 year rental. Payroll will approach 100 mill next year.

oregonred
07-02-2012, 06:17 PM
The Cubs and Pirates have incredible payflex for 2013 and beyond. The Reds are pretty well tapped out until 2016 with the core under contract...

The Phillips extension eliminated the realistic payflex the next few seasons.

oregonred
07-02-2012, 06:24 PM
30M seems way high for the arb eligibles. I think the Reds can manage the arb eligibles in 10M or less next season assuming Bray and Bailey are dealt.

Latos, Stubbs, Ondrusek, Simon and Leake are the core 1st time arb eligibles next season. This is the core that needs to makeup 80% of the arb salaries. Beyond that it doesn't really matter. Ondrusek won't cost too much and actually flip a coin with one of Simon/Ondrusek and deal the other one.

Bailey is year 2 and Bray is year 3. Both would get moved for sure.

Frazier, Cozart, Hoover, Mes will be dirt cheap. A few million for a LF bat/3rd outfielder. With the dirt cheap four + the core 10 + Greinke + the core 1st year arb eligibles who cares about the rest they can all make the minimum... Still think it's a pipedream though

Scrap Irony
07-02-2012, 06:34 PM
You'll need a ton of rookies to make the team in order for the money to work, not to mention dealing an expensive player or two.

I'd think trading Arroyo while adding Greinke would be the easiest plan.

I'd guess an Arroyo and Masset trade (Yankees? Red Sox?)-- for minimal return-- would work. I'm fairly certain the Yankees would love to have Arroyo take Freddy Garcia's rotation spot, Masset take Cory Wade's relief spot, and Hanigan take Chris Stewart's backup catching spot.

That'd make Greinke affordable right now and give the Reds a spot in the rotation for him. Dioneer Navarro would take Hanigan's spot as catcher, and Masset's certainly shown to be replaceable.

fearofpopvol1
07-02-2012, 06:37 PM
You'll need a ton of rookies to make the team in order for the money to work, not to mention dealing an expensive player or two.

I'd think trading Arroyo while adding Greinke would be the easiest plan.

I'd guess an Arroyo and Masset trade (Yankees? Red Sox?)-- for minimal return-- would work. I'm fairly certain the Yankees would love to have Arroyo take Freddy Garcia's rotation spot, Masset take Cory Wade's relief spot, and Hanigan take Chris Stewart's backup catching spot.

That'd make Greinke affordable right now and give the Reds a spot in the rotation for him. Dioneer Navarro would take Hanigan's spot as catcher, and Masset's certainly shown to be replaceable.

As of April, Arroyo has 10-5 rights. So, he'd have to agree to wherever he's traded. I'm guessing he wouldn't agree to NY, but would agree to Boston.

757690
07-02-2012, 06:41 PM
Btw, if Greinke would sign for $15M year for less than five years, the Brewers would do that in a second and not trade him. Any team wanting to extend him, needs to be willing to pay $100M for five years to start.

oregonred
07-02-2012, 06:45 PM
Btw, if Greinke would sign for $15M year for less than five years, the Brewers would do that in a second and not trade him. Any team wanting to extend him, needs to be willing to pay $100M for five years to start.

Yep, Cain's contract is probably the best comp, maybe a bit lower for Greinke but not much. 6 yr/127.5 with full no trade.

Pipedream

camisadelgolf
07-02-2012, 06:53 PM
You'll need a ton of rookies to make the team in order for the money to work, not to mention dealing an expensive player or two.

I'd think trading Arroyo while adding Greinke would be the easiest plan.

I'd guess an Arroyo and Masset trade (Yankees? Red Sox?)-- for minimal return-- would work. I'm fairly certain the Yankees would love to have Arroyo take Freddy Garcia's rotation spot, Masset take Cory Wade's relief spot, and Hanigan take Chris Stewart's backup catching spot.

That'd make Greinke affordable right now and give the Reds a spot in the rotation for him. Dioneer Navarro would take Hanigan's spot as catcher, and Masset's certainly shown to be replaceable.
Arroyo can't be traded without his permission. Masset's on the 60-day dl, so he can't be traded anyway.

Benihana
07-02-2012, 06:55 PM
You'll need a ton of rookies to make the team in order for the money to work, not to mention dealing an expensive player or two.

I'd think trading Arroyo while adding Greinke would be the easiest plan.

I'd guess an Arroyo and Masset trade (Yankees? Red Sox?)-- for minimal return-- would work. I'm fairly certain the Yankees would love to have Arroyo take Freddy Garcia's rotation spot, Masset take Cory Wade's relief spot, and Hanigan take Chris Stewart's backup catching spot.

That'd make Greinke affordable right now and give the Reds a spot in the rotation for him. Dioneer Navarro would take Hanigan's spot as catcher, and Masset's certainly shown to be replaceable.

Arroyo, Masset and Ludwick to the Yankees for Swisher and Robertson.

Then rent Greinke for Gregorius and Cingrani/Lotzkar.

Championship.

Then re-sign Greinke or Swisher with the cost savings.

#wipinghands #itsthateasy

camisadelgolf
07-02-2012, 07:06 PM
Arroyo, Masset and Ludwick to the Yankees for Swisher and Robertson.

Then rent Greinke for Gregorius and Cingrani/Lotzkar.

Championship.

Then re-sign Greinke or Swisher with the cost savings.

#wipinghands #itsthateasy
Like I said, Arroyo and Masset aren't getting traded. The Yankees aren't trading Swisher (why would they?). And I'm pretty sure it'd take a lot more than two spare-part prospects to get Greinke even if it's just for a few months.

The Operator
07-02-2012, 07:17 PM
I think some of you are overvaluing our prospects by quite a bit. It took 3 upper level prospects and a major leaguer to net Latos. So how is 2 A/AA prospects (in some cases) gonna get it done for an arguably better (more track record at the least) pitcher? Even three?

And I'm not sure how any of you are leaving Billy Hamilton off also. It's almost a guarantee he'd be going in a deal of that magnitude.

kaldaniels
07-02-2012, 07:24 PM
I think some of you are overvaluing our prospects by quite a bit. It took 3 upper level prospects and a major leaguer to net Latos. So how is 2 A/AA prospects (in some cases) gonna get it done for an arguably better (more track record at the least) pitcher? Even three?

And I'm not sure how any of you are leaving Billy Hamilton off also. It's almost a guarantee he'd be going in a deal of that magnitude.

1) The market will set the price for Greinke.

2) Rental vs. 4 years under control.

3) That said, he won't be cheap.

_Sir_Charles_
07-02-2012, 07:32 PM
I find it kinda funny that this is even being talked about here. Not. Happening.

PuffyPig
07-02-2012, 07:35 PM
It seams that most trade proposals made on RedsZone are either a huge overpayment or a complete underpayment.

I think the reason for this is the often non-consideration of the salary and team control of the players involved.

PuffyPig
07-02-2012, 07:36 PM
I think some of you are overvaluing our prospects by quite a bit. It took 3 upper level prospects and a major leaguer to net Latos.

Apples, meet Oranges.

kaldaniels
07-02-2012, 07:44 PM
I find it kinda funny that this is even being talked about here. Not. Happening.

I don't see why a rental would be totally out of the question.

_Sir_Charles_
07-02-2012, 08:10 PM
I don't see why a rental would be totally out of the question.

Because in order to get that "rental" we'd have to be giving up years of either Bailey or Leake. That's why. And he's also going to cost an arm and a leg in prospects that we really shouldn't be divvying out right now after knocking the legs out of the farm with the Latos deal.

Does anybody here really think that our starting rotation is a problem?

Homer has no options left, so if we bring in a starter...either Homer gets dealt or Leake gets sent down.

Mike Leake's last 9 starts. 60 ip, 17 er, 11 bb, 46 k, 2.55 era. How much of an improvement over that is Grienke going to be?

Scrap Irony
07-02-2012, 08:21 PM
Arroyo would absolutely go to New York.

PuffyPig
07-02-2012, 08:22 PM
Because in order to get that "rental" we'd have to be giving up years of either Bailey or Leake. That's why.

I bet the Brewers would jump on Leake for Greinke, but I wouldn't give up Leake for a rental.

Bailey is different. He's getting expensive and is less likley to become that top end starter.

reds1869
07-02-2012, 08:23 PM
Does anybody here really think that our starting rotation is a problem?

I doubt it, but there are exactly zero teams in baseball who would fail to benefit from adding Greinke to their rotation.

kaldaniels
07-02-2012, 08:48 PM
Because in order to get that "rental" we'd have to be giving up years of either Bailey or Leake. That's why. And he's also going to cost an arm and a leg in prospects that we really shouldn't be divvying out right now after knocking the legs out of the farm with the Latos deal.

Does anybody here really think that our starting rotation is a problem?

Homer has no options left, so if we bring in a starter...either Homer gets dealt or Leake gets sent down.

Mike Leake's last 9 starts. 60 ip, 17 er, 11 bb, 46 k, 2.55 era. How much of an improvement over that is Grienke going to be?

You may be hung up on Homer, but I suspect under the right circumstances he is expendable.

Take your last sentence, replace Leake with Homer, and what would your answer be?

Benihana
07-02-2012, 09:15 PM
Like I said, Arroyo and Masset aren't getting traded. The Yankees aren't trading Swisher (why would they?). And I'm pretty sure it'd take a lot more than two spare-part prospects to get Greinke even if it's just for a few months.

1. Not at the beginning of the month, but at the end of the month Masset could get traded.
2. The Yankees are in desperate need of rotation help. If anyone would take on those salaries, they would- especially if they were shedding Swisher.
3. Swisher is a FA-to-be and Brett Gardner is coming back
4. I don't think anyone other than you would consider Cingrani or Lotzkar a "spare-part" prospect. Most wouldn't consider Gregorius that, either.
5. I'd be surprised if a rental Greinke costs more than two Top 120 prospects.* The only way he costs more is if a team is poised to extend him.





*I realize Gregorius is not a top 120 prospect

_Sir_Charles_
07-02-2012, 09:23 PM
You may be hung up on Homer, but I suspect under the right circumstances he is expendable.

Take your last sentence, replace Leake with Homer, and what would your answer be?

My point is that we're looking at the wrong target IMO. We should be targeting an offensive player. Not pitching. And certainly not a rental who will cost us more than we can afford.

Homer is still under control until 2015. That's worth more than a few months of Greinke IMO.

_Sir_Charles_
07-02-2012, 09:26 PM
I bet the Brewers would jump on Leake for Greinke, but I wouldn't give up Leake for a rental.

Bailey is different. He's getting expensive and is less likley to become that top end starter.

Not that expensive. 3 months of a guy for a starter under control for several more years? Homer's making 2.7 million a year. Grienke's getting 13.5 million...and he's going to want more if extended.

I'm not saying I wouldn't like Greinke. Not at all. What I'm saying is we're looking at the wrong target. If Greinke would get extended....whole different story, but that ain't gonna happen with Cincy IMO.

Scrap Irony
07-02-2012, 09:29 PM
Yankees could always grab Masset as a PTBNL. Bray wouldn't be a bad choice for them as well.

I could see an Arroyo/ Bray/ PTBNL (Masset) deal go down easily. Solves a lot of Yankee problems for a little money (for them, anyway).

_Sir_Charles_
07-02-2012, 09:32 PM
Yankees could always grab Masset as a PTBNL. Bray wouldn't be a bad choice for them as well.

I could see an Arroyo/ Bray/ PTBNL (Masset) deal go down easily. Solves a lot of Yankee problems for a little money (for them, anyway).

These Yankee ideas tossed around make a TON more sense for the Reds than going after Greinke IMO. If this deal were to go down...then I'd be more on board with Greinke (with an extension). Rental...I'll pass.

redsmetz
07-02-2012, 09:36 PM
Others have noted this about Arroyo, but besides his 10 and 5 rights (which requires him waiving the no-trade right), plus you have to work around the clause in his contract that makes all his deferred money payable now. That could be him agreeing to waive that clause, maybe waive it but add interest or just paying it (and I would imagine the finances on that could be worked a couple of ways. What's that they say about relationships? It's complicated.

Caveat Emperor
07-02-2012, 09:41 PM
I don't see any circumstance where the Reds are major players at the deadline.

Unless the Reds are willing to unload Billy Hamilton, I don't see a lot of attractive packages that can be built.

_Sir_Charles_
07-02-2012, 09:48 PM
I don't see any circumstance where the Reds are major players at the deadline.

Unless the Reds are willing to unload Billy Hamilton, I don't see a lot of attractive packages that can be built.

This. A left-handed bench bat with solid OBP...that I can see. But that's about it.

Patrick Bateman
07-03-2012, 12:37 AM
Not that expensive. 3 months of a guy for a starter under control for several more years? Homer's making 2.7 million a year. Grienke's getting 13.5 million...and he's going to want more if extended.

I'm not saying I wouldn't like Greinke. Not at all. What I'm saying is we're looking at the wrong target. If Greinke would get extended....whole different story, but that ain't gonna happen with Cincy IMO.

IMO, no chance Bailey gets Greinke on his own.

Bailey will no longer be dirt cheap and is looking like an at best average starter that puts up 1.5 WAR... also I think the perceived upside thought is gone. Guys like him in free agency seem to be worth around 7-8M a year, therefore, the value Bailey presents as cost savings compared to open market is not that significant.

Greinke on the other hand is an elite starter, who might provide a few seasons worth of Bailey's value in half a season, and with the premium required to get an elite talent at the deadline, I think that Bailey is not close in value on his own.

buckeyenut
07-03-2012, 10:50 AM
I think any discussion on the money available to us has to be done with more information than any of us have.

When they pulled the trigger on the extensions, how much of the following was taken into account in the financials?


>4000 increase in average attendance, assuming $20 each, >6M in revenue a year
Going into new TV contract with OUTSTANDING rating, #3 in MLB by market as I recall. How much might we get in this renegotiation?
Extra playoff berth means higher likelihood of making playoffs. If we made playoffs and then went deep, how much do we make in revenue per game? A home game 42000 and $30 a pop is 1.26M in revenue. We would obviously sell out, but I don't know the expense side of the equation.


At this point, the race is such that Greinke may help ensure you make the playoffs. It is a little tighter than is comfortable. More importantly, Greinke dramatically increases your odds of going further in the playoffs. I think Greinke pays for himself this year. The question is, does he pay for himself next year.

Reds are at a point where a marginal win is worth a lot. I think this could be a good business move to make. I also think they are definitely in a mode of success breeds success. The better they do in the playoffs this year, the better attendance will be next year. They won't be able to sell a lot more tickets because attendance is so high, but I do think this is the offseason where we see a $2-3 per ticket increase, particularly if we have a long playoff run. That should give us another 5-7M to play with to pay a guy like Greinke.

As I started out with, I think it all depends on the assumptions built into the financial model today regarding what they can do going forward.

HotCorner
07-03-2012, 10:51 AM
Under the new CBA rules, it will be interesting to see how the market is set on players like Greinke who are in the last year of their contract since the acquiring team would not receive compensation should the player walk. Thus I could see teams not offering as much in the past especially if said player will not extend their contract.

Vottomatic
07-03-2012, 11:12 AM
I'd offer the Brewers (Greinke) and the Cubs (Dempster) a package of prospects blocked at the major league level for a rental of either pitcher. If neither jumps at it, then stick with what we got. I don't want to give up much for a rental the Reds cannot afford to sign long term.

Plus Plus
07-03-2012, 12:24 PM
I'd offer the Brewers (Greinke) and the Cubs (Dempster) a package of prospects blocked at the major league level for a rental of either pitcher. If neither jumps at it, then stick with what we got. I don't want to give up much for a rental the Reds cannot afford to sign long term.

I'm not sure that Dempster would be anything resembling a tangible upgrade in the current Reds rotation.

bellhead
07-03-2012, 01:00 PM
Not that expensive. 3 months of a guy for a starter under control for several more years? Homer's making 2.7 million a year. Grienke's getting 13.5 million...and he's going to want more if extended.

I'm not saying I wouldn't like Greinke. Not at all. What I'm saying is we're looking at the wrong target. If Greinke would get extended....whole different story, but that ain't gonna happen with Cincy IMO.

7 year extension 105 million....:beerme:

oregonred
07-03-2012, 01:10 PM
The Pirates have a lot more to offer and much more payflex longer term for Greinke. Ditto the Cardinals. Both are far more likely than Cincinnati. Let's hope he doesn't end up in either place long term.

Call me selfish but I'd like him out of the NL Central. 7/105 would be below market since Cain just got 20M+ per season.

Vottomatic
07-03-2012, 02:07 PM
I'm not sure that Dempster would be anything resembling a tangible upgrade in the current Reds rotation.

2012 Dempster

e.r.a. - 2.11
Starts - 12
Record - 3-3
IP - 81
Hits allowed - 61
HR's allowed - 6 (in a home run hitters park)
WHIP - 1.025 (best in his 15 year career)
H/9 - 6.8 (best in his 15 year career)
HR/9 - .7 (3rd best in his 15 year career)
BB/9 - 2.4 (best in his 15 year career)
Average IP per start - 6 2/3's

He was recently on the DL for tightness in his back. But he threw lately and is pain-free. Cubs are willing to eat some of his $14M contract for quality farm system players.

http://www.kffl.com/player/4762/MLB/Ryan-Dempster

Plus Plus
07-03-2012, 02:43 PM
2012 Dempster

e.r.a. - 2.11
Starts - 12
Record - 3-3
IP - 81
Hits allowed - 61
HR's allowed - 6 (in a home run hitters park)
WHIP - 1.025 (best in his 15 year career)
H/9 - 6.8 (best in his 15 year career)
HR/9 - .7 (3rd best in his 15 year career)
BB/9 - 2.4 (best in his 15 year career)
Average IP per start - 6 2/3's

He was recently on the DL for tightness in his back. But he threw lately and is pain-free. Cubs are willing to eat some of his $14M contract for quality farm system players.

http://www.kffl.com/player/4762/MLB/Ryan-Dempster

FIP- 3.24 (better than any year he has ever had, and only one year (2008) is even within half of a run)
xFIP- 3.71 (in line with career averages)
HR/FB%- 7.5% (last three years 11% or higher)
K/9- 7.33 (lowest of any year since 2003 with the Reds)
LOB%- 83.3% (lowest of his career by about 6%, lowest of his last four by about 10%)

Throw in a recent injury and I think that we are seeing an older guy (35) who has had a great, unsustainable first half of the season. I don't see him as being an immediate, tangible upgrade over either Bailey or Leake, and, unless he could quite literally be had for free, not worth targeting. If one of the starters go down, I would rethink my position, but right now I don't see how Dempster, or any non-elite SP, would fit the Reds' needs right now.

Vottomatic
07-03-2012, 02:50 PM
FIP- 3.24 (better than any year he has ever had, and only one year (2008) is even within half of a run)
xFIP- 3.71 (in line with career averages)
HR/FB%- 7.5% (last three years 11% or higher)
K/9- 7.33 (lowest of any year since 2003 with the Reds)
LOB%- 83.3% (lowest of his career by about 6%, lowest of his last four by about 10%)

Throw in a recent injury and I think that we are seeing an older guy (35) who has had a great, unsustainable first half of the season. I don't see him as being an immediate, tangible upgrade over either Bailey or Leake, and, unless he could quite literally be had for free, not worth targeting. If one of the starters go down, I would rethink my position, but right now I don't see how Dempster, or any non-elite SP, would fit the Reds' needs right now.

For the record, I'm not really interested in Greinke or Dempster. I just presented him as an alternative to those wanting an upgrade by trade, since he's on the market.

camisadelgolf
07-03-2012, 05:45 PM
7 year extension 105 million....:beerme:
Cy Young Award winners typically make a lot more than that. Greinke will make about $20M annually.

RedsManRick
07-03-2012, 06:04 PM
I've wanted Greinke for years. He's even become more of a ground-baller. If there's any I make a big play for, that's the guy.

Greinke, Latos, Cueto is a top 3 I'd be very happy with in the playoffs.

mdccclxix
07-03-2012, 06:21 PM
They say teams will get less for big FA's to be like Greinke because the receiving team will not get a comp pick through arbitration - like in the past. Yet, the team trading the big piece will get a comp pick if they keep their player. So, that kind of sets the bottom for what Greinke is worth. The player needs to be 1st round caliber. As we've seen the price can be very steep, as Beltran brought in Wheeler last year. The list begins with our top 100 pieces like Hamilton, Corcino, Cingrani, Stephanson, etc. I'd imagine Greinke is worth at least one other good piece, as he's not as much of a risk as Beltran was.

Vottomatic
07-03-2012, 06:43 PM
mlbtraderumors.com talked alot about the Braves seriously pursuing Greinke.

Nathan
07-03-2012, 09:28 PM
mlbtraderumors.com talked alot about the Braves seriously pursuing Greinke.

It's merely circumstantial at this point. There's no hard evidence.

johngalt
07-03-2012, 10:13 PM
Extra playoff berth means higher likelihood of making playoffs. If we made playoffs and then went deep, how much do we make in revenue per game? A home game 42000 and $30 a pop is 1.26M in revenue. We would obviously sell out, but I don't know the expense side of the equation.


Unfortunately, teams usually don't actually make money directly when making the playoffs unless they go very deep with a lot of home games. A large chunk (maybe 50%) of the gate money goes to an MLB pool. Along with merchandise and concessions as well. The club makes much less per home game for playoffs vs. regular season, even when you figure in higher ticket pricing and more seats.

A big reason is there are a lot of expenses clubs have to go through to prepare for Postseason. Everything from extra accommodations for media to travel for officials to pre/post-game parties and events. Plus you have to have extra personnel, staff, security, etc. on site than normal and for a longer period of time than a regular game.

Not saying some money isn't made but a quick exit can actually leave you about even or maybe even at a slight loss.

Redlegs
07-06-2012, 07:10 PM
If the Reds could toss three hammers like Cueto, Latos, and Grienke out there, it would be lights out for the rest of Central for a few years.

MikeThierry
07-06-2012, 07:55 PM
You guys can have him. I don't know what it is about this guy but I just don't like him. He reminds me of Jimmy Clausen in the fact that when you look at him, you sort of want to punch him.

757690
07-06-2012, 08:57 PM
Unfortunately, teams usually don't actually make money directly when making the playoffs unless they go very deep with a lot of home games. A large chunk (maybe 50%) of the gate money goes to an MLB pool. Along with merchandise and concessions as well. The club makes much less per home game for playoffs vs. regular season, even when you figure in higher ticket pricing and more seats.

A big reason is there are a lot of expenses clubs have to go through to prepare for Postseason. Everything from extra accommodations for media to travel for officials to pre/post-game parties and events. Plus you have to have extra personnel, staff, security, etc. on site than normal and for a longer period of time than a regular game.

Not saying some money isn't made but a quick exit can actually leave you about even or maybe even at a slight loss.

Marge Schott was mad the Reds swept the A's in 1990, since it meant less revenue for the Reds. lol

You are correct. The real way that a team makes money from going to the postseason is increased ticket sales the next season.

MartyFan
07-06-2012, 09:17 PM
Also consider that the Reds are up for a new media deal very soon and with the team they are investing in, there are a lot of people who will want to see them...that means whatever media outlet makes the deal is gonna come to the table knowing they are going to be displaying superstars in the lineup. Obviously Votto is there, BP is there, Cueto and Latos are right there too and on the way is Jay Bruce...that is some good baseball to watch and if you add Grenkie to that mix you are looking at a very marketable commodity.

Oh yeah...Chapman in the rotation too would be stellar.

As for manager??? Gotta get someone who is media savvy, WINS and/or is a heavy draw for fans...who is available? TLR? Larkin? Morgan - I KID, I KID - what others are there?

Benihana
07-06-2012, 09:27 PM
My guess is Greinke heads to Baltimore.

Pittsburgh would be my second guess, then Atlanta.

I'd rather focus our efforts on acquiring Justin Upton.

Tom Servo
07-06-2012, 10:02 PM
You guys can have him. I don't know what it is about this guy but I just don't like him. He reminds me of Jimmy Clausen in the fact that when you look at him, you sort of want to punch him.
http://media.scout.com/Media/Image/39/391260.jpg
http://l.yimg.com/a/i/us/sp/v/mlb/players_l/20090404/8369.jpg
http://www1.pictures.gi.zimbio.com/St+Louis+Cardinals+Photo+Day+6NAAcYGJE_Lm.jpg
http://i.a.cnn.net/si/2005/players/10/11/first.person1017/t1_eckstein.jpg
http://cardsdroppings.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/l3818491-244x300.jpg
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_EysSmEhPUvw/SjOfZVmcnkI/AAAAAAAAAC4/7lZN9cMHdo0/s400/khalilgreene625apr30.jpg
http://content.usatoday.com/wires2web/20080407/1277444421_spiezio_guilty_plea_baseballx.jpg
http://6.media.tumblr.com/s3DGHxb5Mqas5ckxjTZ34hteo1_400.jpg
http://16.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_kr6c4gPzfA1qzcjnwo1_500.jpg
http://www.coastalplain.com/images/prlogos/ToddWellemeyer(2008).jpg
http://cmsimg.freep.com/apps/pbcsi.dll/bilde?Site=C4&Date=20110112&Category=SPORTS02&ArtNo=110112041&Ref=AR&MaxW=300&Border=0&Brad-Penny-seems-like-smart-pickup-Tigers
http://www3.pictures.zimbio.com/gi/Brian+Tallet+St+Louis+Cardinals+Photo+Day+MUUuAp4H q3tl.jpg
http://static.flickr.com/24/59756144_8c5777e40f_o.jpg

PuffyPig
07-06-2012, 10:08 PM
I don't know what it is about this guy but I just don't like him. He reminds me of Jimmy Clausen in the fact that when you look at him, you sort of want to punch him.

I didn't know Chris Carpenter had changed his name......

jhu1321
07-06-2012, 10:10 PM
You guys can have him. I don't know what it is about this guy but I just don't like him. He reminds me of Jimmy Clausen in the fact that when you look at him, you sort of want to punch him.

Best post ever.

The Operator
07-06-2012, 11:41 PM
You guys can have him. I don't know what it is about this guy but I just don't like him. He reminds me of Jimmy Clausen in the fact that when you look at him, you sort of want to punch him.You'd pass up a Cy Young winner because of how he looks? For realz?

marcshoe
07-07-2012, 12:26 AM
I would have gone with Scott Scudder.

MikeThierry
07-07-2012, 02:44 AM
You'd pass up a Cy Young winner because of how he looks? For realz?

It's not only that. He's inconsistent and a head case as well. He's Cy Young at home but the second coming of Jake Westbrook on the road. Again, no thank you. Better trade options in my opinion. I am probably off base here but I just have an innate dislike for the guy, much like I do that cud chewing 2B the Cubs have.

The Operator
07-07-2012, 02:59 AM
It's not only that. He's inconsistent and a head case as well. He's Cy Young at home but the second coming of Jake Westbrook on the road. Again, no thank you. Better trade options in my opinion. I am probably off base here but I just have an innate dislike for the guy, much like I do that cud chewing 2B the Cubs have.Here are his 3-year away splits:

45 GS, 293 IP, 273 K, .239 BAA, 1.15 WHIP, 3.72 ERA

He's not as good on the road as he is at home, but not many players are. That said, he's certainly not chopped liver on the road. If those numbers are Jake Westbrook-esque, I'd be hanging onto him if I were John Mozeliak.

MikeThierry
07-07-2012, 03:07 AM
Here are his 3-year away splits:

45 GS, 293 IP, 273 K, .239 BAA, 1.15 WHIP, 3.72 ERA

He's not as good on the road as he is at home, but not many players are. That said, he's certainly not chopped liver on the road. If those numbers are Jake Westbrook-esque, I'd be hanging onto him if I were John Mozeliak.

Jake Westbrook 2012:

Home: 4.98 ERA
Away: 2.94 ERA

:laugh:

RedlegJake
07-07-2012, 03:10 AM
I like Greinke but I remember his time in KC when he had the anxiety problems, similar to Joey's. Lasted a whole season and much was made of it. I don't think it was a father or mother passing but it was a personal thing and details were never completely disclosed. A ballplayer has human problems and he is labelled a headcase.

Johnny Footstool
07-07-2012, 03:11 AM
http://media.scout.com/Media/Image/39/391260.jpg
http://l.yimg.com/a/i/us/sp/v/mlb/players_l/20090404/8369.jpg
http://www1.pictures.gi.zimbio.com/St+Louis+Cardinals+Photo+Day+6NAAcYGJE_Lm.jpg
http://i.a.cnn.net/si/2005/players/10/11/first.person1017/t1_eckstein.jpg
http://cardsdroppings.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/l3818491-244x300.jpg
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_EysSmEhPUvw/SjOfZVmcnkI/AAAAAAAAAC4/7lZN9cMHdo0/s400/khalilgreene625apr30.jpg
http://content.usatoday.com/wires2web/20080407/1277444421_spiezio_guilty_plea_baseballx.jpg
http://6.media.tumblr.com/s3DGHxb5Mqas5ckxjTZ34hteo1_400.jpg
http://16.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_kr6c4gPzfA1qzcjnwo1_500.jpg
http://www.coastalplain.com/images/prlogos/ToddWellemeyer(2008).jpg
http://cmsimg.freep.com/apps/pbcsi.dll/bilde?Site=C4&Date=20110112&Category=SPORTS02&ArtNo=110112041&Ref=AR&MaxW=300&Border=0&Brad-Penny-seems-like-smart-pickup-Tigers
http://www3.pictures.zimbio.com/gi/Brian+Tallet+St+Louis+Cardinals+Photo+Day+MUUuAp4H q3tl.jpg
http://static.flickr.com/24/59756144_8c5777e40f_o.jpg

Pwned.

Reds/Flyers Fan
07-07-2012, 03:16 AM
That Jim Edmonds pic makes me want to punch him - with a battering ram.

MikeThierry
07-07-2012, 03:30 AM
Oh come on. Why would you want to punch Jason Motte? He only looks high in that picture, lol.

The Operator
07-07-2012, 07:10 AM
Jake Westbrook 2012:

Home: 4.98 ERA
Away: 2.94 ERA

:laugh:Large Sample Sizes > Small Sample Sizes

3-year splits for Westbrook:
Home: 4.32 ERA
Away: 4.54 ERA

I tell ya Mike, this whole thing with you and Greinke... it's almost like a chronic mental illness or something. :ughmamoru: ;)

bellhead
07-07-2012, 12:31 PM
Homer for Zach but only if he signs an extension.. 7 for 120 or 8 for 135...

Offseason move Arroyo..insert Chapman.

bellhead
07-07-2012, 12:31 PM
Homer for Zach but only if he signs an extension.. 7 for 120 or 8 for 135...

Offseason move Arroyo..insert Chapman.

Vottomatic
07-07-2012, 01:05 PM
Homer for Zach but only if he signs an extension.. 7 for 120 or 8 for 135...

Offseason move Arroyo..insert Chapman.

It's like deja vu all over again.

RedEye
07-07-2012, 01:14 PM
Greinke-Cueto-Latos-Chapman-Leake

Just ... wow. The team might not even need to score with that fivesome.

Vottomatic
07-07-2012, 01:22 PM
I don't see Greinke happening. It's a pipedream.

Get Pierre and Upton and theoretically the offense should take off. The starting pitching has been outstanding, I see no need to bolster it.

In the last 20 games, Reds pitching has given up the following amount of runs:
0 - 2 times
1 - 5
2 - 2
3 - 3
4 - 3
5 - 2
6+ - 3

Reds offense has scored:
0 - 1 time
1 - 4
2 - 2
3 - 4
4 - 4
5 - 1
6+ - 4

And still the record in those 20 games is only 9-11.

Degenerate39
07-07-2012, 02:53 PM
Getting Upton is as much of a pipe dream as getting Greinke

The Voice of IH
07-07-2012, 03:17 PM
Greinke-Cueto-Latos-Chapman-Leake

Just ... wow. The team might not even need to score with that fivesome.

Exactly,

And this is why I feel that, assuming the Reds figure a way to lock him up for a sufficient amount of time, that the price can almost not be too high for him.

I would be willing to send anyone besides Votto,Cueto,Latos,Chapman, Bruce, Phillips...and maybe Mes.

Any collection of AAA players and (secondary) MLB players, including Hamilton, would be fine to acquire that type of rotation.

The same goes for Cole Hamels, but locking him up is a much bigger problem than Greinke.

Superdude
07-07-2012, 03:26 PM
I don't see Greinke happening. It's a pipedream.

Get Pierre and Upton and theoretically the offense should take off. The starting pitching has been outstanding, I see no need to bolster it.

In the last 20 games, Reds pitching has given up the following amount of runs:
0 - 2 times
1 - 5
2 - 2
3 - 3
4 - 3
5 - 2
6+ - 3

Reds offense has scored:
0 - 1 time
1 - 4
2 - 2
3 - 4
4 - 4
5 - 1
6+ - 4

And still the record in those 20 games is only 9-11.

And let's not forget Homer's apparent mechanics change had him looking as dominant as anyone last time out. There's no way I'm looking to bump him out of the rotation right now, especially if he has another good start tonight. Offense should be the focus.

Tom Servo
07-07-2012, 05:33 PM
Getting Upton is as much of a pipe dream as getting Greinke
I'd say it's even more of a pipe dream to get Upton. At least Greinke has free agency after this year, Upton is locked up through 2015.

_Sir_Charles_
07-08-2012, 02:19 AM
Greinke was tossed tonight in the game against the Astros after 4 pitches. Yep. FOUR. A ground ball and he was basically racing the runner to first to get him out and the runner beat him by half a step. Greinke was pissed and spiked the ball immediately after the call right in front of the ump. Immediately tossed. He even took the loss as that runner ended up scoring in the first.

RedlegJake
07-08-2012, 02:30 AM
I just don't see the purpose of getting a Greinke and the prospect costs involved. Go after the real problems setting the table for Joey. Fix that first.

oregonred
07-08-2012, 02:34 AM
If 2012 was our last window year, go for Greinke. Giving up a Leake or Bailey for three months of Greinke to a division rival seems to make little sense. I could be talked into Bailey since he's starting to get expensive, but he's been teasing us again the last couple of starts. Absolutely would not trade Leake for a rental.

Priority needs to be on the offense and maintaining the 2013-2015 opening.

With any breaks the last 2-3 weeks, this could have been a 50-win team going into the break.

Zero chance the Reds could sign Greinke long term. And if they could, then I'd wait until the offseason to make a play.

dfs
07-08-2012, 03:30 AM
I just don't see the purpose of getting a Greinke and the prospect costs involved. Go after the real problems setting the table for Joey. Fix that first.

this. this. a thousand times this.

They need somebody to hit at the top of the order who will actually get on base.

GAC
07-08-2012, 06:49 AM
I just don't see the purpose of getting a Greinke and the prospect costs involved. Go after the real problems setting the table for Joey. Fix that first.

YESSSSS! :thumbup:

My God! OB%, a table setter at the top spots in this batting order, is killing, holding this team back, offensively IMO.

Mario-Rijo
07-08-2012, 11:09 AM
I don't see Greinke happening. It's a pipedream.

Get Pierre and Upton and theoretically the offense should take off. The starting pitching has been outstanding, I see no need to bolster it.

In the last 20 games, Reds pitching has given up the following amount of runs:
0 - 2 times
1 - 5
2 - 2
3 - 3
4 - 3
5 - 2
6+ - 3

Reds offense has scored:
0 - 1 time
1 - 4
2 - 2
3 - 4
4 - 4
5 - 1
6+ - 4

And still the record in those 20 games is only 9-11.

I would take on Pierre as a worst case scenario but my preference is Denard Span. Span and Willingham is a better package for us. Minny is looking for pitching.

Span for Stubbs & J.C. Sulbaran sounds like a nice opening offer, since I cannot see Walt and company taking on Upton or Willingham deals. Probably not even a Quentin contract. They should have signed Cody Ross in FA like some wanted and all we would likely be talking about is a leadoff hitter. He only got 3 million, maybe the Sox would deal him to us at the deadline.

RedEye
07-08-2012, 02:19 PM
I would take on Pierre as a worst case scenario but my preference is Denard Span. Span and Willingham is a better package for us. Minny is looking for pitching.


Span might be a reasonable target -- but Span AND Willingham? That seems like a tall order.

Vottomatic
07-08-2012, 02:27 PM
I just don't see the purpose of getting a Greinke and the prospect costs involved. Go after the real problems setting the table for Joey. Fix that first.

Me either.

I haven't seen this good of starting pitching in a long time in Cincinnati. Leadoff and cleanup need fixed badly.

Big Klu
07-09-2012, 02:27 AM
Span might be a reasonable target -- but Span AND Willingham? That seems like a tall order.

According to baseball-reference.com, the most similar player (past or present) to Josh Willingham is Ryan Ludwick.

They are even the same age. So why do the Reds want to trade for him?

CrackerJack
07-09-2012, 03:17 AM
Me either.

I haven't seen this good of starting pitching in a long time in Cincinnati. Leadoff and cleanup need fixed badly.

Yeah after selling the farm for Latos, no way Walt gets another starter. I would think a high obp or lead-off type is a much more reasonable possibility right now.

They aren't going to find a RH clean-up hitter either unfortunately, and I'm not sure that's valued by the Reds' as much as we value it, and they are stuck with Rolen and his inflated salary this season.