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View Full Version : Is Dusty on the hot seat?



Matt700wlw
07-05-2012, 09:16 AM
http://www.wcpo.com/dpp/sports/baseball/reds/dj-slump-jeopardizes-bakers-leverage

RedEye
07-05-2012, 09:21 AM
I think it's a little premature to call this a slump -- at least in terms of the overall record. 4-6 in the last ten is not pretty, but it is also unremarkable. I think they'll turn it around.

Of course, whether Dusty gets an extension is another story. So I'm not sure exactly what this guy is writing about.

mdccclxix
07-05-2012, 09:21 AM
Between this article and the Greinke article in the Biz Courier, it's not clear to me if the authors have any actual information or if they are just like you and me, posting ideas. They certainly don't go out of their way to substantiate their claims in the article. Perhaps that's a condition of obtaining the information they are "just talking" about.

mdccclxix
07-05-2012, 09:23 AM
On the other hand, I find it entirely likely they are just fishing for readers.

lidspinner
07-05-2012, 10:14 AM
I dont think the author has any inside info and I do think they are just fishing for readers, but as he points out, I do think Dusty is on the hotseat.....there is no reason we should not be leading the central by 5+ games.....we have lost to many 1 run games or close games that should have been won....Is that Dusty's fault? maybe 10% of the time it is, the results are brought on by the players, but Dusty is the one who takes the credit or the blame and in this case he will be taking the blame if we do not take control of the central....to many weak spots in the central for us not to be leading by a big stretch....If Walt makes a move and gets us some support, then its win the central or bye bye Dusty.....If Walt sits on his thumbs and does not get any help at the deadline then I think Dusty will get a little extra rope to either hang himself or lasso the central by the horns and take it.

all in all, Dusty is scooting by with little to no wiggle room...as long as we are not 5+ games out by the break then I think our chances are good....we still play the Pirates a bunch and the remaining schedule does not look like a killer, not easy, but not killer either....beat the Pirates and Cards in our remaining matchups, which is very few with the Cards, but win them and I think we will be fine...

we have had trouble with the Pirates as of late but I think this team will buckle down and start taking offense to the fact that we are 2nd to the Pirates.....I think ego's and pride will start to take over and a nasty streak we emerge here real soon if we start to lose ground to the Pirates.....

When you lose ground to the Cards, you almost accept it....when you lose ground to the Pirates, you tip your cap and go back out the next night and force them to wave the white flag, and that attitude must start at the top with Dusty....if he cannot get those results then maybe he needs to go.....

so basically, yes he is on the warm seat.

Always Red
07-05-2012, 10:19 AM
On the other hand, I find it entirely likely they are just fishing for readers.

Well, it's not just "they", it's Denny Janson, which lends this a bit more credence in my book. Janson is a pro who has been around the block a number of times; maybe he knows something?

I think Dusty does not survive if this team doesn't win the division. I can't see them firing him before the end of the year, but can see his contract not being renewed.

TheNext44
07-05-2012, 10:38 AM
3-4 on the first part of a west coast trip isn't a slump, it usually has been reason to celebrate. Especially when you consider that Votto missed two games.

Vottomatic
07-05-2012, 11:11 AM
Maybe it has to do with the season as a whole. And maybe Walt & Bob think this team should be doing much better than they are? Hmmmm.

Kc61
07-05-2012, 11:18 AM
Here's my question for Dusty.

Reds have, generally speaking, better offensive, pitching and fielding numbers than the Pirates.

Why are the Reds not well ahead of the Bucs?

westofyou
07-05-2012, 11:18 AM
Well, it's not just "they", it's Denny Janson, which lends this a bit more credence in my book. Janson is a pro who has been around the block a number of times; maybe he knows something?

I think Dusty does not survive if this team doesn't win the division. I can't see them firing him before the end of the year, but can see his contract not being renewed.
Exactly, framed around the extension the contract status of Dusty is iffy, in the context of the season it's not in any danger currently. There is no strife, there is no anger, there is no back n forth on items.

Everyone seems to be in it together from ownership to dugout.

Where it ends up will be based on the season's net result.

Not the last 2 weeks

reds1869
07-05-2012, 11:19 AM
3-4 on the first part of a west coast trip isn't a slump, it usually has been reason to celebrate. Especially when you consider that Votto missed two games.

I agree. The result of this trip so far has been totally acceptable. The days of the west coast swing killing us seem to be long gone. The next four days will make or break this trip. Split or better at Petco and it is a success; anything else is a disappointment.

reds44
07-05-2012, 11:20 AM
Yeah I don't get why people are freaking out about what's going on out West.

westofyou
07-05-2012, 11:21 AM
Here's my question for Dusty.

Reds have, generally speaking, better offensive, pitching and fielding numbers than the Pirates.

Why are the Reds not well ahead of the Bucs?

RPI has Reds as 7th Reds as 10th


http://espn.go.com/mlb/stats/rpi

Kc61
07-05-2012, 11:33 AM
RPI has Reds as 7th Reds as 10th


http://espn.go.com/mlb/stats/rpi

Reds 7th in RPI, Bucs 10th, Cards 19th.

westofyou
07-05-2012, 11:42 AM
Reds 7th in RPI, Bucs 10th, Cards 19th.

Yes, that makes more sense than mine!

OldXOhio
07-05-2012, 11:53 AM
I agree. The result of this trip so far has been totally acceptable. The days of the west coast swing killing us seem to be long gone.

The days of our pitching getting bombed out west seem to be gone as well - staff ERA of 2.71 on the trip thus far. For that reason, I don't find the results to be totally acceptable. Win 3/4 at Petco and the trip is a success IMO.

Kc61
07-05-2012, 12:02 PM
I agree. The result of this trip so far has been totally acceptable. The days of the west coast swing killing us seem to be long gone. The next four days will make or break this trip. Split or better at Petco and it is a success; anything else is a disappointment.

The results of the trip are totally acceptable for a team that's a reasonable contender for the Central title.

For a clear Central champ and a contender to go deep into the playoffs, the trip is unacceptable.

The Reds have lost four games on the trip. They should have lost two, at most.

The first game at SF was a loss. The Capuano game, maybe. He's had a very good year.

The Reds gave away game four at SF. Bad baserunning or coaching in the ninth inning; a big misplay by the right fielder. Game was given away.

Last night was a joke. Getting shut down by Harang, it's unacceptable, it's the same old lineup of righty after righty unable to deal with modest right handed pitching.

The Dodgers were playing very poorly, they didn't have their two star players, yet they beat the Reds two of three.

We need to set higher standards for the Cincinnati Reds. They have a team ERA below 3.50, they have great fielding, this ballclub is not performing as well as it should.

reds44
07-05-2012, 12:03 PM
A 3-4 (so far) west coast trip isn't unacceptable for anybody.

OesterPoster
07-05-2012, 12:09 PM
A 3-4 (so far) west coast trip isn't unacceptable for anybody.

I'll still take 5-6 and hope for 6-5.

reds44
07-05-2012, 12:10 PM
I'll still take 5-6 and hope for 6-5.
That's what I said when the trip started, and I see no reason to change that now.

Reds/Flyers Fan
07-05-2012, 12:13 PM
Maybe it has to do with the season as a whole. And maybe Walt & Bob think this team should be doing much better than they are? Hmmmm.

If Walt thinks this then he should look in the mirror. He's just as responsible for the underwhelming that is going on around here as Dusty is. It's hard to believe that Bob isn't scratching his head at some of the moves - or lack thereof - made by the front office.

As for the West Coast nonsense: The Reds hold their spring training in Arizona and are more than familiar with the Giants, Padres and Dodgers who also train there.

Always Red
07-05-2012, 12:14 PM
A 3-4 (so far) west coast trip isn't unacceptable for anybody.

The Pads are the 30th ranked team on that RPI list; winning 3 out of 4 there should make everything all better, making the swing a 6-5 success.

Reds/Flyers Fan
07-05-2012, 12:20 PM
Yeah I don't get why people are freaking out about what's going on out West.

Just a guess but maybe it's because a 5-game division lead has now turned into a 1-game deficit and what realistically could soon be third place?

Or maybe it's the fact that the Reds gift-wrapped one of the games to the Giants on bad defense, horrible at-bats with the bases loaded and no outs and, amazingly, bad judgement by the third-base coach?

Or possibly it's the fact that this dysfunctional, HR-dependent Reds offense managed to score a measly 1 run in three of its four California losses (so far) and has wasted some rather good starting pitching in the process?

Or it could even be because of the the fact that the Reds have the worst lead-off hitter in the league and another guy who anchors the No. 2 hole in the lineup and is batting below .220?

mdccclxix
07-05-2012, 12:23 PM
Dusty and Walt will get a look at some Pads players this weekend for a possible trade.

There, I'm Dennis Jansen! ;)

reds44
07-05-2012, 12:27 PM
Just a guess but maybe it's because a 5-game division lead has now turned into a 1-game deficit and what realistically could soon be third place?

Or maybe it's the fact that the Reds gift-wrapped one of the games to the Giants on bad defense, horrible at-bats with the bases loaded and no outs and, amazingly, bad judgement by the third-base coach?

Or possibly it's the fact that this dysfunctional, HR-dependent Reds offense managed to score a measly 1 run in three of its four California losses (so far) and has wasted some rather good starting pitching in the process?

Or it could even be because of the the fact that the Reds have the worst lead-off hitter in the league and another guy who anchors the No. 2 hole in the lineup and is batting below .220?
My goodness you'd swear the Reds were 0-7 out West and 5 games out of first. The West coast is a horrible matchup for the Reds. They're a mediocre offense and they're only mediocre because they can hit homers. The west coast is full of big parks and it's not a surprise they're struggling to score runs. They're fine. If they go out to San Diego and lose 3-4 and it'll have been a bad trip. I'll be surprised if they don't at least get a split, though. All they needed to do was tred water on this trip, the fact the Pirates are on fire lately doesn't change that. It's July, there's a ton of baseball left.

mdccclxix
07-05-2012, 12:31 PM
People get really cranky after two losses in a row. Winning is definitely addictive.

steig
07-05-2012, 12:38 PM
Winning the Central division is pointless if you cannot go to the West coast and beat the Dodgers and Giants. Most likely you are going to have to go through one of them to try and get to the world series, so making excuses about hard trips to the west coast just doesn't work for me.

reds44
07-05-2012, 12:41 PM
Winning the Central division is pointless if you cannot go to the West coast and beat the Dodgers and Giants. Most likely you are going to have to go through one of them to try and get to the world series, so making excuses about hard trips to the west coast just doesn't work for me.
We're going to have to play 11 straight playoff games on the road out west? That seem unfair to me.

oregonred
07-05-2012, 12:52 PM
People get really cranky after two losses in a row. Winning is definitely addictive.

True, but the Reds are on a 6-10 run against largely inferior competition. Wasting a lot of good pitching in the process.

I don't get too down on wasting good pitching as the Reds staff is legit (for once). It is frustrating that they have given away 3-4 wins over the past three weeks due to a confluence of bad luck, Chapman meltdowns, the third base coaching blunder, etc. The worm will turn and this team is more than capable of getting hot and going on a 9-1 type stretch. The FO must address the completely unacceptable roster construction or the Reds will continue to struggle mightily in close late inning games (which is inexcusable given this bullpen with hammers and K/BB machines like Chapman and Marshall). Lately it has been the troubling pattern of being tied or behind by a run after seven innings with a painstaking loss on the ledger at the end of the night that has me concerned. I don't like that trend...

To the thread topic. Dusty is fine for this year, but I surely hope an extension is not given unless this team makes the playoffs. This is a playoff caliber team in 2012. Dusty has been good for the development of the core, but it may require someone else to take them to the next level as the juicy 2013-2015/16 window can't be compromised.

reds44
07-05-2012, 12:56 PM
And we're 12-10 in out last 22. It's baseball.

oregonred
07-05-2012, 01:08 PM
And we're 12-10 in out last 22. It's baseball.

Sure and 113-113 in our last 226 counting the Phils 3 game sweep - which doesn't say much for Dusty to be honest. What's your point?

Make that 123-123 in our last 246 games since the playoff series in 2010. Mediocrity at its finest. Marvin Lewis would be proud :)

LoganBuck
07-05-2012, 01:23 PM
I can't logically construct any sort of lineup out of the given parts that Dusty has, that makes this team better. Sure you could play Mesoraco and Frazier more, but they aren't growing mold either. Outside of appeasing the "Heisey is WAAAAYYY Bettter than Stubbs" talk radio crowd, I don't see what can be done without a trade.

The better question instead of picking on Dusty, is "What is Walt doing to improve this team?"

Always Red
07-05-2012, 01:28 PM
I can't logically construct any sort of lineup out of the given parts that Dusty has, that makes this team better. Sure you could play Mesoraco and Frazier more, but they aren't growing mold either. Outside of appeasing the "Heisey is WAAAAYYY Bettter than Stubbs" talk radio crowd, I don't see what can be done without a trade.

The better question instead of picking on Dusty, is "What is Walt doing to improve this team?"

That's a fair question.

This lineup is Votto, Bruce, Phillips and a bunch of #6, 7 and 8 hitters.

That's not Baker's fault, though it is his problem.

Cozart's dealing with the usual rookie adjustments anyone not named Harper or Trout go through, and Stubbs has inexplicably turned into Corey Patterson.

oregonred
07-05-2012, 01:34 PM
That's a fair question.

This lineup is Votto, Bruce, Phillips and a bunch of #6, 7 and 8 hitters.

That's not Baker's fault, though it is his problem.

Cozart's dealing with the usual rookie adjustments anyone not named Harper or Trout go through, and Stubbs has inexplicably turned into Corey Patterson.

You nailed it on the bunch of #6-#8 hitters problem.

Zach is far from the problem. He is 8th in the NL in qualified OPS for SS at .698 (3rd is .738). He'll get better and be a mid 700's guys and should fill into an adequate top of the order player at some point, but he isn't even close to what ails this offense.

Stubbs is not Patterson (yet), but is completely miscast at the top of the order.

LoganBuck
07-05-2012, 01:57 PM
That's a fair question.

This lineup is Votto, Bruce, Phillips and a bunch of #6, 7 and 8 hitters.

That's not Baker's fault, though it is his problem.

Cozart's dealing with the usual rookie adjustments anyone not named Harper or Trout go through, and Stubbs has inexplicably turned into Corey Patterson.

To answer your summation is to define the solution.

We have the following assets that are not going anywhere/subject to change this season

Votto
Phillips
Bruce
Cozart
Frazier/Rolen
Mesoraco/Hanigan

Something has to fundamentally change in either leftfield or centerfield. I am not one to give up on guys, but what the Reds have, and what they need are two different things. Ludwick isn't a trading chip given age/history/performance. He is roughly performing at near the level the Reds thought that he would. He can easily slide into a platoon or bench role. That leaves Stubbs and Heisey this debate has been on going in some form on Redszone for about 5 years now. Make a decision trade one or both, and try to get something for the top of the order in CF. If we assume that Billy Hamilton is eventually going to be an OF guy we don't have to be looking at the Spans and Fowlers. The Reds need 1.5 seasons, not 6 years.

Always Red
07-05-2012, 01:59 PM
You nailed it on the bunch of #6-#8 hitters problem.

Zach is far from the problem. He is 8th in the NL in qualified OPS for SS at .698 (3rd is .738). He'll get better and be a mid 700's guys and should fill into an adequate top of the order player at some point, but he isn't even close to what ails this offense.

Stubbs is not Patterson (yet), but is completely miscast at the top of the order.

I was just naming the 2 guys miscast as leadoff and #2 hitters. I have plenty of hope for Cozart; at his age, Stubbs should be on the very top of his game. Maybe this is the top of his game, as Lance said on his blog today.

Always Red
07-05-2012, 02:08 PM
To answer your summation is to define the solution.

We have the following assets that are not going anywhere/subject to change this season

Votto
Phillips
Bruce
Cozart
Frazier/Rolen
Mesoraco/Hanigan

Something has to fundamentally change in either leftfield or centerfield. I am not one to give up on guys, but what the Reds have, and what they need are two different things. Ludwick isn't a trading chip given age/history/performance. He is roughly performing at near the level the Reds thought that he would. He can easily slide into a platoon or bench role. That leaves Stubbs and Heisey this debate has been on going in some form on Redszone for about 5 years now. Make a decision trade one or both, and try to get something for the top of the order in CF. If we assume that Billy Hamilton is eventually going to be an OF guy we don't have to be looking at the Spans and Fowlers. The Reds need 1.5 seasons, not 6 years.

Stubbs? Heisey?

I vote for neither for long term solution. Heisey's a nice player, good 4th OF, good RH bat off the bench, IMO. Any team that starts him either in LF or CF is not a playoff team, again, my opinion.

Stubbs is an enigma, a guy who you would love to scream at to hit down on ball, make the defense play it and run like hell. I'm thinking Matty Alou, Rod Carew, Pete Rose. Just put the ball in play, hit singles. One would think that would be easy to do, and it's simply not. This is a hard game, and Stubbs struggles with making contact. He's having enough trouble just being himself right now, asking him to be someone else at the plate might be disastrous. He's such a good base runner and defender, that we really want him to be more. Maybe the answer is allowing him to be what he is and limit his at bats by putting him down in the order- 7th or 8th. But on this team, it's kind of crowded down there right now.

_Sir_Charles_
07-05-2012, 02:08 PM
Here's my question for Dusty.

Reds have, generally speaking, better offensive, pitching and fielding numbers than the Pirates.

Why are the Reds not well ahead of the Bucs?

1 run games.

We're 13-15.
They're 19-14.

So call it good luck, bad luck, tough breaks, bad timing, whatever. Good teams FIND a way to win those 1 run games. Right now, we're not doing that. I haven't been seeing us go 1st to 3rd like we did in 2010. I haven't been seeing us executing the fundamentals in the 7th, 8th & 9th innings like we did in 2010. The blame is wide spread. The players aren't executing, the coaches aren't getting the most out of guys, and the GM isn't supplying the tools needed to turn it around.

All of that being said, all it's going to take is one thing to turn us around. One "spur" at the right time. In 2010, Dusty found it. That debacle of a game in SD with all the baserunning errors and such that prompted the team meeting and we took off from there. Something needs to light a fire under these guys. They're not playing with the same intensity and passion that they had in 2010 from what I've seen. I firmly believe we're good enough to win it. All of it. But somebody needs to turn on the switch.

oregonred
07-05-2012, 02:27 PM
Hopefully the San Diego series will go better than the San Diego fireworks show last night. That was awesome (all the fireworks went off at once in the first 15 seconds).

http://www.10news.com/news/31249032/detail.html

RedlegJake
07-05-2012, 03:01 PM
I tend to belong to the roster problems are bigger than Dusty camp.

The number of free swinging low OBP guys on the roster that mimic each other in general philosophy is a weakness.

Their striking ineptitude against right handed pitching is a real warning sign. I don't believe handedness is a huge factor on most teams but most aren't this imbalanced. These guys are tremendously leveraged to damage lefties and swish and meekly drag their bats back to the dugout against righties.

An incredibly anemic bench. When a pitcher is your most feared pinch hitter you have a problem.

Dusty-wise I don't mind the small ball sometimes but then I look at small ball's prime X factor the steal and it's practically non-existent on this team. I just find that puzzling.
You'll give away sure outs bunting a couple times every game but you won't make a 75% gamble on getting the same base without an out by stealing it. It's not like Cozart, Frazier, Valdez, BP, Stubbs and Heisey can't run well enough to swipe a few bases even if Stubbs is the only high leverage stealer. Even Bruce is 4 for 4. These guys can run, Dusty just won't. He'd rather take the SURE out 100% of the time and have a man on 2nd (when it works) than gamble on getting the man to 2d 75% of the time with no outs. For a guy that supposedly loves small ball I can't figure that.

Dusty's insistence on certain guys hitting 1st or 2nd and then remaining with them even when their OBP and BA plummet to .150/.175...."well (swirling a toothpick) ya gotta let a kid play his way outta slumps - I 'member when Hank done that...lessee..68-69? I was a young'un too then...he tole me jus' keep playin' Dusty until you can see the ball again...then take a toothpick..see...hmm...no ...that wasn't it....oh yeah...take a bat and twirl it like this...Hank was always doing that...polishing his bat...and just when you can see the ball good...and ya gotta play to see the ball...ya hit it....Now that's why I let them kids play right there...Hank tole me how you do that see (takes toothpick out of mouth and spits in dust)

Vottomatic
07-05-2012, 04:16 PM
What's even more alarming is that the Pirates and Cardinals are right there with the Reds, and they have the farm system and more payroll flexibility to go get help at the deadline. The Reds really don't without being really, really creative.

That's my concern.

WMR
07-06-2012, 01:12 AM
If Bob Cast is going to spend all this money and then turn the keys over to Dusty, nobody is going to end up happy.

oregonred
07-06-2012, 01:14 AM
123-124 since the end of the 2010 regular season. I rest my case.

The Operator
07-06-2012, 01:14 AM
If he wasn't yet, he should be after tonight's laugher.

Wow.

OldXOhio
07-06-2012, 01:15 AM
Sam and Logan in the ninth.

That is all

reds44
07-06-2012, 01:16 AM
He put Sam LeCure in with the game tied in the 9th and the bases loaded and nobody out.

How does one come to the conclusion that is a good idea?

REDblooded
07-06-2012, 01:20 AM
He put Sam LeCure in with the game tied in the 9th and the bases loaded and nobody out.

How does one come to the conclusion that is a good idea?


He was ready to go home bro...

oregonred
07-06-2012, 01:21 AM
He put Sam LeCure in with the game tied in the 9th and the bases loaded and nobody out.

How does one come to the conclusion that is a good idea?

Because he is a player's manager. The confidence he showed Sam Lecure tonight will do wonders for his ego the rest of the year.

He pulls one of the best setup guys in the game in the 8th for AAA Ondrusek and then can't figure out to pull Logan to bring in a lefty to face Alonso in the 9th.

Then he pulls righty Ondrusek for soft tossing righty Sam LeCure (I didn't even know he had made the flight out west) with the bases loaded and no outs.

I mean you can't make this stuff up.

BuckeyeRedleg
07-06-2012, 01:23 AM
Because he is a player's manager. The confidence he showed Sam Lecure tonight will do wonders for his ego the rest of the year.

He pulls one of the best setup guys in the game in the 8th for AAA Ondrusek and then can't figure out to pull Logan to bring in a lefty to face Alonso in the 9th.

Then he pulls righty Ondrusek for soft tossing righty Sam LeCure (I didn't even know he had made the flight out west) with the bases loaded and no outs.

I mean you can't make this stuff up.

And just think, all of that for the bargain basement price of $3.5M per year. Money well spent!

RedlegJake
07-06-2012, 01:25 AM
Well Sam's ego might be massaged but his confidence was sure as heck bruised when they hit his first pitch for a game winning double.

westofyou
07-06-2012, 01:26 AM
Because he is a player's manager. The confidence he showed Sam Lecure tonight will do wonders for his ego the rest of the year.

He pulls one of the best setup guys in the game in the 8th for AAA Ondrusek and then can't figure out to pull Logan to bring in a lefty to face Alonso in the 9th.

Then he pulls righty Ondrusek for soft tossing righty Sam LeCure (I didn't even know he had made the flight out west) with the bases loaded and no outs.

I mean you can't make this stuff up.

FWIW Lecure has a higher k/9 for his career than Logan

oregonred
07-06-2012, 01:27 AM
Bringing in Ondrusek in the 8th was not a bad decision. He managed the 8th like a game he had to win. Then completely goes asleep in the 9th inning.

That being said, if Marshall does his job in the 8th and Chapman closes the 9th he looks like a genius. When the script deviates, all bets are off with Dusty.

oregonred
07-06-2012, 01:29 AM
FWIW Lecure has a higher k/9 for his career than Logan

I never claimed Logan was a strikeout artist. Should have been pulled immediately after the Grandal double. Man was that ball lasered...

Reds/Flyers Fan
07-06-2012, 01:29 AM
123-124 since the end of the 2010 regular season. I rest my case.

The very definition of mediocre. Just in the last few weeks:

Lose 2 of 3 to the Pirates, Lose 2 of 3 to the Tigers, Sweep the Indians, Sweep the Mets, get swept by the Indians, Lose 2 of 3 to the Twins, win 2 of 3 vs the Brewers, split with the Giants 2-2, lose 2 of 3 to the Dodgers, lose to the Padres

That's a 16-16 record since June 1 ... as average as it gets. Water always finds a way to level itself. Anyone expecting this current bunch to finish anywhere other than around the .500 mark is clearly deluding themselves.

DiamondRat
07-06-2012, 01:32 AM
Marshall's first batter was a rh and ondrusek's first batter was a lh? What a mess!

reds44
07-06-2012, 01:32 AM
Marshall's first batter was a rh and ondrusek's first batter was a lh? What a mess!
False. Don't get your info from Lance. Quentin, Ondrusek's first batter, is right handed.

Tony Cloninger
07-06-2012, 01:33 AM
I almost get the feeling that Walt is not doing anything just to show BOBC that this guy is not the guy to manage this team.

Kc61
07-06-2012, 01:35 AM
Dusty is probably gone after this year. I wouldn't worry too much about Dusty. I'm ready for someone else too, but he's not the main problem.

The main problem is (drum roll) - for the 5000th time - the offense doesn't work. It doesn't make any sense. It is over loaded with semi-powerful righty hitters who don't get on base.

The team can't hit righties. It has no OBP. This is not a fluke. It is the bizarre composition of this offense. It is the personnel.

The manager will change, but unless this offense is fixed the team will struggle.

It's the offense. Period.

Tony Cloninger
07-06-2012, 01:38 AM
Dusty is probably gone after this year. I wouldn't worry too much about Dusty. I'm ready for someone else too, but he's not the main problem.

The main problem is (drum roll) - for the 5000th time - the offense doesn't work. It doesn't make any sense. It is over loaded with semi-powerful righty hitters who don't get on base.

The team can't hit righties. It has no OBP. This is not a fluke. It is the bizarre composition of this offense. It is the personnel.

The manager will change, but unless this offense is fixed the team will struggle.

It's the offense. Period.



Even if Walt traded for Choo...let's say..... Dusty would NOT bat him 3rd or 4th.....he would probably bat him 7th behind Bruce and Frazier...... there is no way he would tolerate batting Choo 2nd or 4th with 2 LH back to back.


So yes the offense is the problem and the way Walt built it....but this moron cannot even tinker with what he has to try and see what can work.......and would be useless even if you brought him help.

Kc61
07-06-2012, 01:46 AM
Even if Walt traded for Choo...let's say..... Dusty would NOT bat him 3rd or 4th.....he would probably bat him 7th behind Bruce and Frazier...... there is no way he would tolerate batting Choo 2nd or 4th with 2 LH back to back.


So yes the offense is the problem and the way Walt built it....but this moron cannot even tinker with what he has to try and see what can work.......and would be useless even if you brought him help.

I don't agree with this. I know you're frustrated but if Dusty had real OBP top of the order types, he would use them there.

But even if he continues to mess up the batting order, Walt will stop him, or a new manager will change it. The bottom line is getting the right personnel. That is the main order of business for this team.

It's just so obvious. Every righty pitcher in America beats these guys. Votto never hits with men on base. The whole thing is absurd.

Reds/Flyers Fan
07-06-2012, 01:46 AM
Well, the good news is, after his one-day hiatus, we'll get Drew Stubbs right back in the No. 2 hole tomorrow. That should go a long way toward solving this current train wreck of an offense. :rolleyes:

WMR
07-06-2012, 01:59 AM
I don't agree with this. I know you're frustrated but if Dusty had real OBP top of the order types, he would use them there.

But even if he continues to mess up the batting order, Walt will stop him, or a new manager will change it. The bottom line is getting the right personnel. That is the main order of business for this team.

It's just so obvious. Every righty pitcher in America beats these guys. Votto never hits with men on base. The whole thing is absurd.

Hanigan? Oh wait, he's a catcher, nvm.

Vottomatic
07-06-2012, 02:00 AM
Well, the good news is, after his one-day hiatus, we'll get Drew Stubbs right back in the No. 2 hole tomorrow. That should go a long way toward solving this current train wreck of an offense. :rolleyes:

Drew is a 5-tool player. And he's fast. Don't knock him. :rolleyes:

AtomicDumpling
07-06-2012, 07:00 AM
Why does Dusty not get any blame for the roster construction? Seems a lot of people want to let Dusty completely off the hook for the lack of good OBP hitters on the team. I am sure Dusty has a ton of input with Jocketty in terms of how the team is built. I don't think Jocketty goes out and gets players totally on his own without consulting with Dusty to find out what he wants. I am sure if Dusty truly understood and valued OBP then there would be more good OBP hitters on the team.

I would imagine Dusty has more input and control over the player acquisition process than people realize. Yes it is Jocketty who actually goes out and gets the players, but Dusty has a ton of input and is integrally involved in the process. Dusty and Walt discuss the roster and decide together what the team needs. I believe Walt has gone out and made player moves because Dusty wanted a certain player or type of player. I don't believe that Jocketty is making moves in a vacuum without input from the coaching staff or against Dusty's will, and I don't believe Dusty is helplessly forced to use players he does not want on the team. Guys like Cairo, Valdez and Ludwick are here because Dusty wanted them.

I am sure there have been players that Dusty wanted but Walt was unable or unwilling to acquire as well. You can't get a player who is unavailable or is unwilling to come here. But in general I believe the roster is the way it is because both Dusty and Walt decided to build the team this way. For that reason I don't think Dusty is beyond blame for the lack of some good OBP hitters for the top of the lineup. If he really valued that type of player he would have them by now. The Reds have had several years in Dusty and Walt's reign to find a way to acquire them.

LoganBuck
07-06-2012, 07:40 AM
Forsythe was a pinch hitter as well, the pitchers spot. Lance seems like the guy I get stuck sitting next to at the game who knows everything, but is wrong about everything. Marshall was coming into the game after Latos was removed. Blame him for throwing a stinking lollipop up there. For a "shut down reliever" he has some real clunkers.

dougdirt
07-06-2012, 08:48 AM
Drew is a 5-tool player. And he's fast. Don't knock him. :rolleyes:

Nah, Drew is a 4 tool player. His hit tool is not so good. The rest of them are pretty good.

OesterPoster
07-06-2012, 09:22 AM
I don't agree with this. I know you're frustrated but if Dusty had real OBP top of the order types, he would use them there.


Not totally true. Go back and look through Dusty's history with the Giants and Cubs. For example, in 2004 the Cubs won 89 games and missed out on the playoffs by 3 wins. Do you think maybe the Cubs win a couple more games if Dusty doesn't throw Corey Patterson into the leadoff and #2 hole 102 times that year? He had the 2nd lowest OBP of the 9 guys who had the most starts that season, yet there he was NOT getting on base in front of Aramis Ramirez and Sammy Sosa day after day.

You can say Dusty will put high OBP guys in front of Joey Votto, but history shows that he won't.

CesarGeronimo
07-06-2012, 09:28 AM
And Dusty keeps putting his very lowest OBP guys at the top of the order. His very lowest OBP guys. His very lowest OBP guys. His very lowest OBP guys.

Bumstead
07-06-2012, 09:31 AM
He should be on the hot-seat...this team is too good to be in 2nd in the Central.

Bum

Always Red
07-06-2012, 09:40 AM
So, now that the season is finished and Dusty did not lead this team to the NL Central title (huh?)...

...who is the next manager of the Reds?

David Bell? why else move him into the AAA job at the beginning of the year?

One of the present coaches? I can't see that.

Someone from outside? TLR might take it just to give Dusty one more kick on his way out the door.

REDREAD
07-06-2012, 09:55 AM
And Dusty keeps putting his very lowest OBP guys at the top of the order. His very lowest OBP guys. His very lowest OBP guys. His very lowest OBP guys.

That's a true point, but other than the 3-5 guys, we don't have good candidates to bat #1 and #2.. Hannigan is not a top of the order guy..
How many catchers hit 1 or 2 for an extended period of time in recent history? None that I can think of, although there may be one or two.

Not sure if Ludwick or Frasier batting at the top of the lineup works either.
Would love to see Phillips go back to lead off, but the team has to get another bat to make that work.

I think Walt will get a bat at the trade deadline, especially fi the team is not not in first place.. Maybe it will only be a LH platoon guy, but I'm hoping he pulls another Larry WAlker out of nowhere.. (Not saying that is likely, but I am hoping).

Tony Cloninger
07-06-2012, 10:01 AM
Hanigan? Oh wait, he's a catcher, nvm.

He's not exactly doing so hot lately....in fact I would say that he might get burned out even more hitting 2nd...then he does now. He seems to be one that wears down quickly.

CesarGeronimo
07-06-2012, 10:09 AM
That's a true point, but other than the 3-5 guys, we don't have good candidates to bat #1 and #2.. Hannigan is not a top of the order guy..
How many catchers hit 1 or 2 for an extended period of time in recent history? None that I can think of, although there may be one or two.

Not sure if Ludwick or Frasier batting at the top of the lineup works either.
Would love to see Phillips go back to lead off, but the team has to get another bat to make that work.

I think Walt will get a bat at the trade deadline, especially fi the team is not not in first place.. Maybe it will only be a LH platoon guy, but I'm hoping he pulls another Larry WAlker out of nowhere.. (Not saying that is likely, but I am hoping).

Until a deal happens, I think Frazier is the guy they ought to give a shot at hitting No. 2. He has a .335 OBP through 172 at bats this season and is a fastball hitter who would hopefully thrive hitting in front of Votto.

LincolnparkRed
07-06-2012, 10:57 AM
Until a deal happens, I think Frazier is the guy they ought to give a shot at hitting No. 2. He has a .335 OBP through 172 at bats this season and is a fastball hitter who would hopefully thrive hitting in front of Votto.

At least it is an attempt to improve and get people on in front of Joey. I think that unless BP goes to 1, frazier to 4 and cozart to 7 there really aren't many other options. Hanigan has been in a bad slump lately as well.