PDA

View Full Version : Reds Interested in Juan Pierre



reds44
07-06-2012, 10:47 PM
Buster Olney ‏@Buster_ESPN
As the Phillies prepare for possible sell-off, Juan Pierre drawing interest, including from the Cincinnati Reds.

The Operator
07-06-2012, 10:49 PM
Michael Scott-"NOOOO!" - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N493CQgQ_Hk)

klw
07-06-2012, 10:50 PM
NOOOOOO - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfRHYrSktGM)

Luke says No - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FSWiMoO8zNE)

klw
07-06-2012, 10:51 PM
"NOOOOOOOOO" Compilation - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lgI2ZQVyrBo&feature=related)

757690
07-06-2012, 10:53 PM
Pierre would be a fine addition. Not sure why the hate for him.

He gets on base, lifetime .346 OBP, .338 the last three years, .355 this season.

And he would't cost much in terms of prospects.

Tom Servo
07-06-2012, 10:55 PM
http://i.imgur.com/3h1iw.gif

edabbs44
07-06-2012, 10:56 PM
Pierre would be a fine addition. Not sure why the hate for him.

He gets on base, lifetime .346 OBP, .338 the last three years, .355 this season.

And he would't cost much in terms of prospects.

Was just going to post the same thing. Team is starving for OBP, he is at .344 since start of 2009. Numbers compare well to DeJesus, who is on everyone's Christmas (in July) list.

klw
07-06-2012, 10:57 PM
Pierre would be a fine addition. Not sure why the hate for him.

He gets on base, lifetime .346 OBP, .338 the last three years, .355 this season.

And he would't cost much in terms of prospects.

You know after you posted this I went and looked and saw his stats. You are right he is not a crappy as I thought. I think the issue has always been that his contract with LA was so high and for the money he was seen as an underachiever esp at first. Not great but could serve a role at the top of the order.

dougdirt
07-06-2012, 10:57 PM
Pierre isn't an ideal guy, but at this point I will accept anyone who can actually get on base in front of Joey Votto.

Always Red
07-06-2012, 10:58 PM
oh, hell, let's just have Chone Figgins and get it over with.

https://encrypted-tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQGmtTXDXeAXZTazWDX7Vgnst16pNB6H o-v78YZpCuDFxnllpH6Xg

HotCorner
07-06-2012, 11:00 PM
He of the .306 leadoff OBP?

Tom Servo
07-06-2012, 11:06 PM
Pierre hasn't played any centerfield (the position where we most need an upgrade) since 2009, and his arm is a wet noodle.

fearofpopvol1
07-06-2012, 11:07 PM
He's having a bit of a down year thus far, but I think I'd rather have Victorino.

Kc61
07-06-2012, 11:11 PM
He of the .306 leadoff OBP?

As compared with the Reds' lead off hitter OBP so far this year of .241.

Kc61
07-06-2012, 11:12 PM
He's having a bit of a down year thus far, but I think I'd rather have Victorino.

Victorino would cost a lot more in prospects and isn't having a good year.

I'd be concerned about giving up a lot of good prospects for Victorino at this stage of his career given his numbers this year.

marcshoe
07-06-2012, 11:25 PM
While I've considered it inevitable that the Reds would some day acquire Pierre, he really isn't as bad as Corey P or that abomination who came after him. He's a guy I used to hate, until I realized he wasn't all that bad.

But yeah, I'd rather have Victorino.

mdccclxix
07-06-2012, 11:50 PM
He's struggled more against RHP in the past, but he's OBP .389 this year.

mth123
07-06-2012, 11:50 PM
Reds could do worse and have a couple of such examples in the OF at this point...

RedlegJake
07-06-2012, 11:51 PM
Give me Pierre. Victorino will walk anyway. Pierre will cost less.

AtomicDumpling
07-06-2012, 11:59 PM
I would take Pierre off the Phillies' hands, but I wouldn't give up much of future value for him. I would trade Heisey or Stubbs for Pierre, but I wouldn't give up any real prospects. It makes me kind of queasy inside to acknowledge that the Reds OBP problem is so bad that an elderly slap hitter like Pierre actually seems like a viable option to upgrade the offense.

cincrazy
07-07-2012, 12:57 AM
I would take Pierre off the Phillies' hands, but I wouldn't give up much of future value for him. I would trade Heisey or Stubbs for Pierre, but I wouldn't give up any real prospects. It makes me kind of queasy inside to acknowledge that the Reds OBP problem is so bad that an elderly slap hitter like Pierre actually seems like a viable option to upgrade the offense.

I wouldn't even trade Heisey or Stubbs for him. I think they both have more value than Pierre. I'd get up one or two low-level prospects, and that's it.

Kc61
07-07-2012, 01:19 AM
I wouldn't even trade Heisey or Stubbs for him. I think they both have more value than Pierre. I'd get up one or two low-level prospects, and that's it.

If the Reds pick up Pierre, somebody will have to leave. They do not go with 11 pitchers, haven't for years.

It's not Wilson Valdez. Reds will want a back up middle infielder.

I doubt it's Stubbs. Reds won't want to trade Drew now. It would be selling low on a highly touted prospect.

And it's not Rolen who sounds like he's ready to come back. Unless he has a surprise retirement in the offing.

So it's either Cairo, Heisey, or Ludwick. If Pierre or a different outfielder becomes a Red, it's likely one of those three is gone.

_Sir_Charles_
07-07-2012, 01:22 AM
If the Reds pick up Pierre, somebody will have to leave. They do not go with 11 pitchers, haven't for years.

It's not Wilson Valdez. Reds will want a back up middle infielder.

I doubt it's Stubbs. Reds won't want to trade Drew now. It would be selling low on a highly touted prospect.

And it's not Rolen who sounds like he's ready to come back. Unless he has a surprise retirement in the offing.

So it's either Cairo, Heisey, or Ludwick. If Pierre or a different outfielder becomes a Red, it's likely one of those three is gone.

I agree it would be either Cairo, Hi-C or Ludwick...but Valdez is in that mix too IMO. I think the Reds have seen enough of Wilson to know he's basically Paul Janish but with less defense. I don't think they'd hesitate one second in dealing Valdez. I'm surprised you do. What does Valdez bring to the table that Janish doesn't? Seriously?

Reds/Flyers Fan
07-07-2012, 02:20 AM
Heisey or Stubbs would be fine, but not Ludwick. He's actually provided this team some offense this year and would be a valuable bat off the bench in the second half.

We need an annoying mosquito of a hitter at the top of the order - someone who can tap about eight pitches foul before dinking a single into LF would be a pleasure to watch after some of the hacking we've put up with the past few years.

Scrap Irony
07-07-2012, 02:38 AM
Pierre is fine if nothing else is available.

But he has to play CF.

RedlegJake
07-07-2012, 07:38 AM
Pierre (CF), Phillips (2B), Votto (1B), Ludwick (LF), Bruce (RF), Frazier (3B), Cozart (SS) Mesigan (C)

Stubbs - gone in deal, Valdez gone in deal or released, Cairo gone or released
bench - Rolen RH, HRod Sw, Heisey R, Mesigan R, Navarro Sw

2 switch hitters to pinch hit on the bench, Mesoraco available when not starting for RH power because of Navarro call up, Rolen kept rested and ready for PH/occasional start, Heisey can spell any of the OFers if something happens and give any a rest day and provides some pop off the bench.

Pierre and BP provide high OBP and speed in front of Joey, in the batting around phase Cozart & Mesigan provide some OBP and the pressure is off Cozie so he can just relax a little.

Lastly, cut Hanny back to 50/50 to give him more rest so he doesn't get worn down and also it gives Mesoraco more ABs to find his stroke. Its time for the kid to start playing more.

RedlegJake
07-07-2012, 07:45 AM
Or and this crazy. The Reds get Pierre for something like Stubbs straight up. Then Walt goes creative and trades Heisey, Vidal, Hamilton, Lotzkar and Corcino for Upton.

Pierre (CF), Phillips (2B), Votto (1B), Upton (LF), Bruce (RF), Frazier (3B), Cozart (SS) Mesigan (C)

Bench is Ludwick, Rolen, HRod, Mesigan and Navarro
Pitching remains untouched with Joseph, Villareal, and Hoover still in reserve at Louisville for any fallback.

kbrake
07-07-2012, 09:03 AM
I'm with Doug, I'm open to anyone who can get on base in front of Votto.

757690
07-07-2012, 09:18 AM
Pierre is fine if nothing else is available.

But he has to play CF.

Pierre hasn't played CF regularly since 2007, nor at all since 2009. Nor should he.

If acquired, he will play LF, sending Ludwick to the bench.

LegallyMinded
07-07-2012, 09:43 AM
Reds CFs are turning in an OBP of .285 with a .630 OPS.
Reds LFers come in at a .308 OBP and a .726 OPS.

Currently, Pierre is at a .349 OBP and a .730 OPS. His BABIP, however, is slightly above his career norm, and ZIPS projects him for .335/.679 for the rest of the season.

With that in mind, I'd say go after him only if you think he can still play a legitimate CF. Now, I don't know if there's much evidence to suggest he actually can play a decent CF, but UZR isn't really enamored with the performance of Stubbs or Heisey in center, and evaluating whether Pierre can still cover much ground might be something more appropriate for scouts or people in the organization who have actually been watching him this year. Overall, I think there are certainly worse candidates for the Reds to be interested in.

jojo
07-07-2012, 09:48 AM
oh, hell, let's just have Chone Figgins and get it over with.

https://encrypted-tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQGmtTXDXeAXZTazWDX7Vgnst16pNB6H o-v78YZpCuDFxnllpH6Xg

I wouldn't even wish that on the Cardinals or the Cubs. Well, maybe the Cardinals.

jhu1321
07-07-2012, 10:28 AM
Pierre has 13 K's in 234 AB's. Stubbs has over 70. Get Pierre, drop Stubbs To 7 & move Cozart to 2. Top of order problem improved....

........ now onto our cleanup problem.

_Sir_Charles_
07-07-2012, 10:50 AM
I'm not a fan of Pierre...but all the people doing the facepalms and such....have any of you looked at his stats. Not just THIS year, but the last several years? We know he has no power...but he DOES bring some useful things to the table...the same specific things this team lacks. Instead of the instant gag reflex of "D'OH!", look at it with fresh eyes.

dunner13
07-07-2012, 10:58 AM
whats funny is billy hamilton ceiling is probably pierre with more speed, yet everyone loves hamilton and hates pierre.

hebroncougar
07-07-2012, 11:00 AM
whats funny is billy hamilton ceiling is probably pierre with more speed, yet everyone loves hamilton and hates pierre.

I was just looking up Billy and thinking.............why not just call him up instead? Let him play OF (not ideal, I know) over the next 3-4 weeks, and have at it. At least he can draw a walk.

Big Klu
07-07-2012, 11:16 AM
I was just looking up Billy and thinking.............why not just call him up instead? Let him play OF (not ideal, I know) over the next 3-4 weeks, and have at it. At least he can draw a walk.

Because there is a huge difference between the California League and the National League.

I'm a huge fan of Billy Hamilton. I check his progress every day, and I normally don't pay a lot of attention to minor-leaguers--especially those below AAA. I hope the Reds keep him, and don't use him as a trading chip. But don't push him too far too fast.

Vottomatic
07-07-2012, 11:21 AM
Juan Pierre? I just shake my head at the Reds management. They've been clueless up to this point and seem to continue on that path.

The holes in this lineup have been there for 3 years. I guess it's more patchwork from here on out.

Kc61
07-07-2012, 11:30 AM
I agree it would be either Cairo, Hi-C or Ludwick...but Valdez is in that mix too IMO. I think the Reds have seen enough of Wilson to know he's basically Paul Janish but with less defense. I don't think they'd hesitate one second in dealing Valdez. I'm surprised you do. What does Valdez bring to the table that Janish doesn't? Seriously?

I didn't say Wilson Valdez is untouchable. I said the Reds will need a backup middle infielder. So Juan Pierre, if acquired, will not take Valdez' spot. Even if Valdez was shipped out, there would then be a new backup middle infielder, whether it be Janish or somebody else.

If Pierre is acquired, he will have to take the spot of either Cairo, Ludwick, or Heisey IMO.

As for Valdez, he's a backup middle infielder and I think he's fine in that spot. He has versatility and playoff experience. I don't think moving him is a priority.

As for Stubbs, the only way I see him moving is for a good defensive CF who hits better. I don't see the Reds letting Stubbs go for Juan Pierre with Heisey the only remaining CF.

hebroncougar
07-07-2012, 11:32 AM
Because there is a huge difference between the California League and the National League.

I'm a huge fan of Billy Hamilton. I check his progress every day, and I normally don't pay a lot of attention to minor-leaguers--especially those below AAA. I hope the Reds keep him, and don't use him as a trading chip. But don't push him too far too fast.

I know that, but what teams call up guys from AA from time to time. I'm not saying he'll be great, but Juan Pierre? Seriously? That's the exactly the kind of guy you keep far, far away from Dusty. It's Corey Patterson and Wily Taveras part trois.

lollipopcurve
07-07-2012, 11:36 AM
Those splits vs. righties look real good.

Raisor
07-07-2012, 11:37 AM
I don't want Ludwick replaced by Pierre. Yes Joey's RBI will go up, but overall scoring will go down a tick.

You have to get Stubbs out of the lineup.

Big Klu
07-07-2012, 11:40 AM
I don't want Ludwick replaced by Pierre. Yes Joey's RBI will go up, but overall scoring will go down a tick.

You have to get Stubbs out of the lineup.

I have to agree. Ludwick is coming around.

RedEye
07-07-2012, 11:50 AM
If the Reds replace Stubbs with Juan Pierre, we're going to remember really quickly what it is like to have a hole in CF defense.

Always Red
07-07-2012, 11:58 AM
I'm not a fan of Pierre...but all the people doing the facepalms and such....have any of you looked at his stats. Not just THIS year, but the last several years? We know he has no power...but he DOES bring some useful things to the table...the same specific things this team lacks. Instead of the instant gag reflex of "D'OH!", look at it with fresh eyes.

Well, I facepalmed, so I'll give a more serious answer. Yes, his stats are better than Stubbs, and I like him better at leadoff than anyone else on this current roster.

My problem with it is that he can only play LF, and so will replace Heisey and Ludwick, not Stubbs. As others here have noted, Ludwick is coming around, and Stubbs is not. Pierre should not play CF, the defense will suffer, and will cost in runs allowed.

So, it does solve one single problem, granted, a big one (leadoff), but seems to cause other problems as well; the law of unintended consequences.

Vottomatic
07-07-2012, 12:02 PM
If they acquire Pierre and Upton, it will be interesting to see how defensively, the outfield is set. I can almost see Bruce moving over to CF, Upton in RF, and Pierre in LF. It would fix the offensive lineup, that's for sure. But it remains to be seen if Upton will have a resurgence.

And I assume if Stubbs isn't part of the trade package, that he will be back in triple A. I don't see Ludwick going anywhere. So will Ludwick and Heisey be the 4th and 5th OFers? This will get interesting if this trade is made.

I really hate seeing Cingrani and Corcino traded though.

Blitz Dorsey
07-07-2012, 12:05 PM
I don't get the fans making fun of the idea of getting Juan Pierre. As long as we wouldn't have to give up a top prospect, I'm all for it. Think about it: he could leadoff, Cozart could bat second where he belongs and Stubbs could go to the bench (or Louisville) where he belongs.

Phillies won't be able to get much in return for Pierre. I'm all about it.

Vottomatic
07-07-2012, 12:13 PM
I want Pierre and Upton. Solves the lineup problem if Dusty puts Pierre in leadoff and Upton at cleanup.

POS Player Bats OBP
LF Pierre (LH) .349
2B Phillips (RH) .322
1B Votto (LH) .468
RF Upton (RH) .350
CF Bruce (LH) .328
3B Frazier (RH) .344
SS Cozart (RH) .298
C Hanoraco (RH) .351 (Hanigan)

RedEye
07-07-2012, 12:16 PM
I want Pierre and Upton. Solves the lineup problem if Dusty puts Pierre in leadoff and Upton at cleanup.

POS Player Bats OBP
LF Pierre (LH) .349
2B Phillips (RH) .322
1B Votto (LH) .468
RF Upton (RH) .350
CF Bruce (LH) .328
3B Frazier (RH) .344
SS Cozart (RH) .298
C Hanoraco (RH) .351 (Hanigan)

I'd much rather expend resources on Upton, but when you put it like this I'm hard-pressed to argue.

hebroncougar
07-07-2012, 12:20 PM
A lot of you guys are counting on Pierre, or Bruce playing CF. Is the gain in offense going to offset the loss in defense? Upton is a pipe dream. I'd love for it to happen, but I'd be more shocked than the Votto extension. Heck go get Parra for CF.

Blitz Dorsey
07-07-2012, 12:21 PM
No way the Reds will get Upton IMO. Forget about it. (I would LOVE to be wrong.)

lidspinner
07-07-2012, 12:22 PM
I don't get the fans making fun of the idea of getting Juan Pierre. As long as we wouldn't have to give up a top prospect, I'm all for it. Think about it: he could leadoff, Cozart could bat second where he belongs and Stubbs could go to the bench (or Louisville) where he belongs.

Phillies won't be able to get much in return for Pierre. I'm all about it.


Spot on....it's not like we would have to give up a top prospect to get Juan....a low level guy or a bench player would do and voila, we have our lead off spot solved.....the problem would be what to do with Stubbs? He cannot be pencilled in everyday in this lineup, he is killing votto and killing our production....we need him to learn how to work a pitcher, work an at bat, make contact and quit worrying about hitting gaps and the longball....maybe sitting and watching Juan Pierre do that will teach drew a thing or two about sticking around in the big leagues. Might help us in more than one way.

Kc61
07-07-2012, 12:25 PM
This year Pierre has an .807 OPS against righites. He has a .361 OPS in very limited action against lefties. This does not mirror his lifetime numbers which are actually a bit better against LHP than RHP with OPS in the lower .700s.

But for this year, he's been used mostly against righties and has done well against them.

If he joins the Reds I see him platooning in LF with Ludwick. Pierre would lead off against RHP for the team. Against lefties, he'd be on the bench with Ludwick starting.

Against LHP the Reds have a lot of good hitters against them so the batting order could go several ways.

Overall, I think this would help the ballclub.

In terms of CF, I think that's a separate problem because the successor to Stubbs has to be somebody who can hit AND field. It's not Juan Pierre.

Against RHP, I see the lineup as Pierre, Cozart, Votto, Phillips, Bruce, Rolen/Frazier, Stubbs, catcher, pitcher.

I agree that CF is the biggest offensive weakness, but it's harder to replace because of defensive needs.

So it's more likely something will be done in LF to make Ludwick a platooner with an OBP guy who hits RHP.

Blitz Dorsey
07-07-2012, 12:25 PM
A lot of you guys are counting on Pierre, or Bruce playing CF. Is the gain in offense going to offset the loss in defense? Upton is a pipe dream. I'd love for it to happen, but I'd be more shocked than the Votto extension.

That's a good point. If we're going to have to go "unconventional" in CF, I would prefer trading for Carlos Quinton and then putting Bruce in CF.

Starting OF:

LF: Carlos Quinton

CF: Jay Bruce

RF: Ryan Ludwick

4th OF: Chris Heisey

Lineup:
1. Phillips 4
2. Cozart 6
3. Votto 3
4. Quinton 7
5. Bruce 8
6. Frazier 6 (with some occasional starts from Rolen)
7. Ludwick 9
8. Hanigan/Mesoraco 2

Frazier could also get some starts in left and Heisey could get some starts in CF (moving Bruce to right).

The bottom line? Get Drew Stubbs the heck out of there before we miss out on a golden opportunity this season!

marcshoe
07-07-2012, 12:26 PM
The top of the lineup is killing the team right now. I see no reason not to pick up Juan Pierre, given that the Reds won't have to give up any significant talent for him.

Then go on and try to trade for a more substantial bat as well.

hebroncougar
07-07-2012, 12:29 PM
This year Pierre has an .807 OPS against righites. He has a .361 OPS in very limited action against lefties. This does not mirror his lifetime numbers which are actually a bit better against LHP than RHP with OPS in the lower .700s.

But for this year, he's been used mostly against righties and has done well against them.

If he joins the Reds I see him platooning in LF with Ludwick. Pierre would lead off against RHP for the team. Against lefties, he'd be on the bench with Ludwick starting.

Against LHP the Reds have a lot of good hitters against them so the batting order could go several ways.

Overall, I think this would help the ballclub.

In terms of CF, I think that's a separate problem because the successor to Stubbs has to be somebody who can hit AND field. It's not Juan Pierre.

Against RHP, I see the lineup as Pierre, Cozart, Votto, Phillips, Bruce, Rolen/Frazier, Stubbs, catcher, pitcher.

I agree that CF is the biggest offensive weakness, but it's harder to replace because of defensive needs.

So it's more likely something will be done in LF to make Ludwick a platooner with an OBP guy who hits RHP.

I could semi go for that, if Frazier goes to cleanup, and Phillips to 2. But I wouldn't give up squat for Pierre.

Vottomatic
07-07-2012, 12:32 PM
I'd love to see them pick up Pierre for leadoff.

Then I'd like to see them trade for Upton (cleanup) and Adam Eaton (future CFer).

membengal
07-07-2012, 12:39 PM
I don't want Ludwick replaced by Pierre. Yes Joey's RBI will go up, but overall scoring will go down a tick.

You have to get Stubbs out of the lineup.

Bottom line. That.

Kc61
07-07-2012, 12:42 PM
Offensively, right now, the Reds are in better shape in LF than CF. So it would be perfect, ideal, to acquire a CFer if one big deal is to be made.

Problem is that changing CFers is a lot harder than changing LFers.

Reds would need to acquire a lead off, high OBP, lefty or switch hitting CFer who can field that key position well.

Not that easy.

If the Reds go after a corner outfielder, it's easier to find the type of hitter they need. Defense becomes secondary. Hence, we get discussions about guys like Pierre who can fill an offensive need.

The likely result is that Ludwick becomes a platooner. The other result is that CF remains an offensive problem which is handled by putting Stubbs/Heisey down lower in the batting order.

Of course, the Reds could acquire two new outfielders or could find the new CF that would help.

But the stats make clear that OBP and hitting v. RHP are the key needs. So I'd rather see them add that player for LF than not at all.

Vottomatic
07-07-2012, 12:43 PM
If they acquire Pierre and Upton, Bruce will move to CF.

Tom Servo
07-07-2012, 01:10 PM
If they acquire Pierre and Upton, Bruce will move to CF.
They're not going to acquire Upton though, so it's a moot point.

reds44
07-07-2012, 01:42 PM
I'm not sure I get the hate for acquiring Pierre. He wouldn't be my first choice but he's cheap, he probably won't cost much in the way of prospects, and he has a good OBP. I just don't know if he can play CF.

westofyou
07-07-2012, 01:45 PM
I'm not sure I get the hate for acquiring Pierre. He wouldn't be my first choice but he's cheap, he probably won't cost much in the way of prospects, and he has a good OBP. I just don't know if he can play CF.

He can't play LF very well, he's not coming here to play CF ... is he??

jhu1321
07-07-2012, 01:53 PM
Keep Stubbs in center but move him to 7th batter. Pierre than Cozart is a better top two since Cozarts "natural" place is there. Heisey and Ludwick become spot starters and pinch hitters. Better.

757690
07-07-2012, 01:53 PM
He can't play LF very well, he's not coming here to play CF ... is he??

Let me repeat myself.

Juan Pierre cannot play centerfield. Period.

If acquired, he plays left, or is a bench player.

757690
07-07-2012, 01:55 PM
Keep Stubbs in center but move him to 7th batter. Pierre than Cozart is a better top two since Cozarts "natural" place is there. Heisey and Ludwick become spot starters and pinch hitters. Better.

Like it or not, that is the move the Reds will make, if they improve the leadoff spot. They aren't moving Stubbs off of center, unless they get another strong defensive CF.

Tom Servo
07-07-2012, 01:57 PM
Keep Stubbs in center but move him to 7th batter. Pierre than Cozart is a better top two since Cozarts "natural" place is there. Heisey and Ludwick become spot starters and pinch hitters. Better.
Stubbs remaining in the lineup and Ludwick to the bench is not "better". It's probably worse.

westofyou
07-07-2012, 02:00 PM
Let me repeat myself.

Juan Pierre cannot play centerfield. Period.

If acquired, he plays left, or is a bench player.

My thoughts exactly, I have no idea why he would even be thought of playing CF... unless I've found a wormhole and it's 2002.

westofyou
07-07-2012, 02:05 PM
Stubbs remaining in the lineup and Ludwick to the bench is not "better". It's probably worse.

But we do have to ponder who is the better baseball player (outside of hitting) at this time?

I have to believe that many believe Stubbs to be and to have more possible upside, even despite his current status. Ludwick's career is trending to a role player who has his moments picked, ala Mark Kotsey, which isn't bad but it's also not something you want exposed every day.

I really believe the Reds will move Stubbs in the right deal... now, or play him out this season and explore it again in the off season.

brad1176
07-07-2012, 02:16 PM
I suggested Juan Pierre weeks ago in the trade targets thread. He's not ideal, but he's about the best of the bargain deals this year. He's cheap, gets on base, and has speed. He's a realistic trade target with the budget and prospects we have.

757690
07-07-2012, 02:22 PM
I don't want Ludwick replaced by Pierre. Yes Joey's RBI will go up, but overall scoring will go down a tick.

You have to get Stubbs out of the lineup.

If one is sold on Ludwick, then the best move is to move him to cleanup and Phillips to leadoff. Much easier and better than acquiring someone like Pierre.

mdccclxix
07-07-2012, 02:23 PM
If Frazier is successful in cleanup then who cares how often Ludwick plays, really. There will be plenty of SLG to go around in the 6-7-8 spots, I think.

Tony Cloninger
07-07-2012, 02:37 PM
But we do have to ponder who is the better baseball player (outside of hitting) at this time?

I have to believe that many believe Stubbs to be and to have more possible upside, even despite his current status. Ludwick's career is trending to a role player who has his moments picked, ala Mark Kotsey, which isn't bad but it's also not something you want exposed every day.

I really believe the Reds will move Stubbs in the right deal... now, or play him out this season and explore it again in the off season.


Stubbs vs LH and batting no higher than 7th.....HC vs RH...no higher than 7th.

Ludwick vs LH and 6th or 4th..... Juan against RHP...leading off....with BP 2nd.

When Ludwick starts...... BP leading off... Frazier 2nd.

I know..it's too much and Baker is in no way going to try and do all that.

membengal
07-07-2012, 02:44 PM
Stubbs remaining in the lineup and Ludwick to the bench is not "better". It's probably worse.

Yup. Hence my dislike of this theoretical move.

Any move made needs to get Stubbs LESS playing time, not cost Ludwick at-bats instead.

Superdude
07-07-2012, 03:01 PM
Yup. Hence my dislike of this theoretical move.

Any move made needs to get Stubbs LESS playing time, not cost Ludwick at-bats instead.

Agreed. Any trade replacing Ludwick is going to be lateral unless it's a fairly big investment. Stubbs has been flat terrible and could be vastly improved upon without too much creativity.

Kc61
07-07-2012, 03:02 PM
Here are the numbers against RHP that IMO are hurting the Reds. Some of the guys have limited at bats. And some, like Ludwick, have hit for power and have good SLG.

OBP listed first, BA listed second. All against RHP only.

Cozart - .292, .244
Ludwick - .290, .227
Mesoraco - .284, .183
Stubbs - .282, .203
Rolen - .250, .187
Valdez - .212, .190
Cairo - .170, .114

Juan Pierre - .382, .342.

Reds face righty pitching about three quarters of the time.

Cards (league leader) .340, .274
Reds (14th OBP, 13th BA) .308, .244

So, in discussing Pierre and who he might replace, keep these numbers in mind.

alloverjr
07-07-2012, 03:05 PM
Yup. Hence my dislike of this theoretical move.

Any move made needs to get Stubbs LESS playing time, not cost Ludwick at-bats instead.

Don't mind them getting Pierre. But eventhough Stubbs has been worse than suck most of this year (and last), I still wouldn't give his AB's to Ludwick over any extended period. Mix and match (if that's in Dusty vocabulary) is fine for me, I just don't trust Ludwick as much as Stubbs when it comes to offense and defense.



OK, I told Stubbs if he followed me on twitter I'd say this...

powersackers
07-07-2012, 03:21 PM
They're not going to acquire Upton though, so it's a moot point.

Why? Kevin Towers is accepting offers as of a 12:20pm update on mlb trade rumors website. Upton has a limited no trade clause though.

Raisor
07-07-2012, 03:26 PM
Replacing Ludwick's 780 OPS with Pierre's 730 OPS will lead to less runs. And let's be real here, if Pierre is on the team he will play every game.

Replacing Stubbs' 637 OPS with Pierre's 730 OPS will lead to more runs.

Replacing Stubbs defense with Pierre's "defense" in CF will lead to more runs against.


He's not the right target.


What about Colby Rasmus?

jhu1321
07-07-2012, 03:30 PM
Stubbs remaining in the lineup and Ludwick to the bench is not "better". It's probably worse.

The top of our order would clearly be better not "worse".

Ludwick is extremely prone to long slumps like Stubbs', just happens to be hot right now.

Raisor
07-07-2012, 03:31 PM
The top of our order would clearly be better not "worse".

Ludwick is extremely prone to long slumps like Stubbs', just happens to be hot right now.



It would be stealing from Peter to pay Paul.

757690
07-07-2012, 03:36 PM
Replacing Ludwick's 780 OPS with Pierre's 730 OPS will lead to less runs. And let's be real here, if Pierre is on the team he will play every game.

Replacing Stubbs' 637 OPS with Pierre's 730 OPS will lead to more runs.

Replacing Stubbs defense with Pierre's "defense" in CF will lead to more runs against.


He's not the right target.


What about Colby Rasmus?

I'd love Rasmus, didn't know he was in the block. Would be expensive in terms of players, but likely worth it.

757690
07-07-2012, 03:37 PM
The top of our order would clearly be better not "worse".

Ludwick is extremely prone to long slumps like Stubbs', just happens to be hot right now.

I agree. Call me crazy, but I think that going forward Stubbs and Ludwick will be very similar in terms of overall production.

corkedbat
07-07-2012, 03:46 PM
Pierre is is not one of my favorites by any means, but he would be an imporvement at the top of the lineup over what we have been running out there. Hate wasting LF on him. I'd much rather have someone like Fowler, Spann, etc. who could replace or platoon with Stubbs in CF.

Playadlc
07-07-2012, 03:51 PM
I'd love Rasmus, didn't know he was in the block. Would be expensive in terms of players, but likely worth it.

Wait, are the Blue Jays really looking to move him?

Why?

TOBTTReds
07-07-2012, 03:56 PM
Wait, are the Blue Jays really looking to move him?

Why?

He'd probably love to beat the Cards too.

Blitz Dorsey
07-07-2012, 04:04 PM
Right, I'm sure the Blue Jays are looking to deal Colby Rasmus right when he's catching fire and is once again looking like a future star.

C'mon now! Let's be realistic. Rasmus is young, doesn't cost much and is playing extremely well. Why in the world would the Blue Jays trade him unless the Reds were willing to give up a ton of good prospects?

jojo
07-07-2012, 04:11 PM
Replacing Ludwick's 780 OPS with Pierre's 730 OPS will lead to less runs. And let's be real here, if Pierre is on the team he will play every game.

Replacing Stubbs' 637 OPS with Pierre's 730 OPS will lead to more runs.

Replacing Stubbs defense with Pierre's "defense" in CF will lead to more runs against.


He's not the right target.


What about Colby Rasmus?

Offensively the two would be a push up to this point in the season as their wOBA's are roughly similar but ZIPs projects Ludwick to finish stronger. Defensively JP probably hurts.

I agree. Pierre is different but probably not more than a lateral move at best.

I doubt Toronto would trade Rasmus as he's starting to look like 2010 Rasmus again.

I'm still dreaming about Willingham.

Tom Servo
07-07-2012, 04:37 PM
Why? Kevin Towers is accepting offers as of a 12:20pm update on mlb trade rumors website. Upton has a limited no trade clause though.
I'm not one to make these claims, but if the Reds trade for Justin Upton I will eat my hat. It is just not a move that is going to be made.

jhu1321
07-07-2012, 05:41 PM
It would be stealing from Peter to pay Paul.

"Paul" would happen to hit in front of Votto.

DGullett35
07-07-2012, 07:42 PM
If we add an OF (I would take Pierre in a heartbeat, Just because of his OBP) wouldn't Heisey have to go? Stubbs is going nowhere. I feel that this organization will ride him out until the end. Ludwick stays IMO, and Bruce is going nowhere. If we add an OF someone would most likely go and that person would be Heisey IMO. In that case Walt may have a couple moves up his sleave, or this all could be wishful thinking on my part.

Raisor
07-07-2012, 07:44 PM
If we add an OF (I would take Pierre in a heartbeat, Just because of his OBP) wouldn't Heisey have to go? Stubbs is going nowhere. I feel that this organization will ride him out until the end. Ludwick stays IMO, and Bruce is going nowhere. If we add an OF someone would most likely go and that person would be Heisey IMO. In that case Walt may have a couple moves up his sleave, or this all could be wishful thinking on my part.

I don't need Stubbs off the team, but he needs to be out of the lineup.

DGullett35
07-07-2012, 07:52 PM
I don't need Stubbs off the team, but he needs to be out of the lineup.

I totally agree with you. My point is that if we add an OF then someone would have to go. IMO Walt sends Heisey packing and keeps Ludwick and Stubbs. Maybe someone above Walt didnt want him getting rid of Stubbs. I would have taken Brantley in a heartbeat. This front office has to realize that not every first round pick is going to be Cam Newton. Sometimes you get JaMarcus Russel or Ryan Leaf.

Kc61
07-07-2012, 07:53 PM
If we add an OF (I would take Pierre in a heartbeat, Just because of his OBP) wouldn't Heisey have to go? Stubbs is going nowhere. I feel that this organization will ride him out until the end. Ludwick stays IMO, and Bruce is going nowhere. If we add an OF someone would most likely go and that person would be Heisey IMO. In that case Walt may have a couple moves up his sleave, or this all could be wishful thinking on my part.

If Reds add Pierre, he could replace Cairo.

If you treat Frazier as a third baseman, the Reds currently only have four outfielders. Ludwick, Stubbs, Heisey, Bruce.

A fifth outfielder such as Pierre wouldn't be too many, but a usual number.

Reds could easily get by in the infield with two third basemen (Rolen and Frazier) and with Valdez as the other backup.

Cairo does play some first base, but presumably Frazier could fill in there when Votto doesn't play.

Reds might not want to depart with Heisey because he's the CF when Stubbs is out of the lineup.

DGullett35
07-07-2012, 07:57 PM
If Reds add Pierre, he could replace Cairo.

If you treat Frazier as a third baseman, the Reds currently only have four outfielders. Ludwick, Stubbs, Heisey, Bruce.

A fifth outfielder such as Pierre wouldn't be too many, but a usual number.

Reds could easily get by in the infield with two third basemen (Rolen and Frazier) and with Valdez as the other backup.

Cairo does play some first base, but presumably Frazier could fill in there when Votto doesn't play.

Reds might not want to depart with Heisey because he's the CF when Stubbs is out of the lineup.

Makes sense

RedlegJake
07-07-2012, 08:07 PM
Wish they'd look at Stubbs and say hey- he's just a year younger than Joey, 28, getting no better, and he ain't a kid anymore. He is not young by baseball standards. He is at the prime years. Yet he struggles to learn. Sometimes you just have to say "enough". He won;t try to change. whether his problem is even "changeable" or not I don't know. I do know by now most guys have figured it out or have established a record of who they are baseball wise. Drew has the record but everyone wants to look at it and say naw, that's not really Stubbs. He's better than that. Even though he keeps doing it.

I'm ready to move on. Deal Stubbs.

mth123
07-07-2012, 08:41 PM
Wish they'd look at Stubbs and say hey- he's just a year younger than Joey, 28, getting no better, and he ain't a kid anymore. He is not young by baseball standards. He is at the prime years. Yet he struggles to learn. Sometimes you just have to say "enough". He won;t try to change. whether his problem is even "changeable" or not I don't know. I do know by now most guys have figured it out or have established a record of who they are baseball wise. Drew has the record but everyone wants to look at it and say naw, that's not really Stubbs. He's better than that. Even though he keeps doing it.

I'm ready to move on. Deal Stubbs.

:thumbup:

PuffyPig
07-07-2012, 08:49 PM
You can deal Stubbs if you get another CF for him who is not a rental.

Pierre is not a CF. If we get him, its as a spare OF replacing Cairo on the roster.

wheels
07-07-2012, 11:43 PM
He would represent a major upgrade over Cairo, but I just know Dusty would have him in there nearly every day..... I think I would pass.

Kc61
07-07-2012, 11:49 PM
He would represent a major upgrade over Cairo, but I just know Dusty would have him in there nearly every day..... I think I would pass.

Nothing to do with Dusty. Pierre has 255 plate appearances this year with the Phillies. And a good OBP, very high against RHP.

If he's acquired, it's to be a platoon player against RHP. Reds would not be acquiring him to sit on the bench.

Isn't the whole point to add a lead off hitter?

wheels
07-07-2012, 11:55 PM
Nothing to do with Dusty. Pierre has 255 plate appearances this year with the Phillies. And a good OBP, very high against RHP.

If he's acquired, it's to be a platoon player against RHP. Reds would not be acquiring him to sit on the bench.

Isn't the whole point to add a lead off hitter?

My only quarrel with that notion is that his defense is bad enough that he probably wouldn't be an upgrade at all. It's really disappointing, because he is fairly decent fit for them offensively.

Vottomatic
07-08-2012, 12:28 AM
I don't understand the CF dilemma. If Stubbs is traded or sent down, Jay Bruce played CF in the minors plenty. He can do it.

757690
07-08-2012, 12:44 AM
I don't understand the CF dilemma. If Stubbs is traded or sent down, Jay Bruce played CF in the minors plenty. He can do it.

Bruce has played CF. Phillips has played SS. Doesn't mean you want them as your everyday CF and SS.

Moving Bruce to CF weakens two OF spots defensively, probably negating the offensive increase in production you would get from whomever the Reds acquire.

Vottomatic
07-08-2012, 12:50 AM
Bruce has played CF. Phillips has played SS. Doesn't mean you want them as your everyday CF and SS.

Moving Bruce to CF weakens two OF spots defensively, probably negating the offensive increase in production you would get from whomever the Reds acquire.

I didn't say start him there. But if hey trade Stubbs or send him down, and put Heisey in CF.......surely Bruce can back him up.

And if they acquire Pierre (LF) and Upton (RF), surely Bruce could move to CF.

Frankly, I'd rather have Bruce in CF than Valdez.

RedlegJake
07-08-2012, 01:07 AM
I'm not sure I believe for a second that the defensive deficiencies of a Pierre LF Bruce CF and Upton RF outfield wouldn't be massively made up by their offensive output. Especially if you had Heisey to play with for defensive purposes too.

oregonred
07-08-2012, 01:13 AM
@JPBeastmode

So at least his twitter handle isn't a failure.

Sure, as long as we don't give up more than a B- prospect and if he can actually play CF a couple times a week and LF maybe a day or two. Makes peanuts this year which helps.

Raisor
07-08-2012, 06:34 AM
If he's acquired, it's to be a platoon player against RHP. Reds would not be acquiring him to sit on the bench.

I have a very hard time believing he would be brought in to platoon.

Vottomatic
07-08-2012, 01:22 PM
All I ever hear is that playing the corner outfield position is harder than CF, in regard to judging hit balls.

And the comparison of Bruce having played CF to Phillips having played SS makes little sense to me since 2B and SS are two premium positions in terms of difficulty, and good outfielders can usually play all 3 positions pretty well.

RedEye
07-08-2012, 01:24 PM
Wish they'd look at Stubbs and say hey- he's just a year younger than Joey, 28, getting no better, and he ain't a kid anymore. He is not young by baseball standards. He is at the prime years. Yet he struggles to learn. Sometimes you just have to say "enough". He won;t try to change. whether his problem is even "changeable" or not I don't know. I do know by now most guys have figured it out or have established a record of who they are baseball wise. Drew has the record but everyone wants to look at it and say naw, that's not really Stubbs. He's better than that. Even though he keeps doing it.


I hear you, but I disagree with the bolded part. I don't think there is evidence that Drew isn't trying to change. I'm sure he knows his game isn't perfect, and that he works to improve as well. Whether or not he can do so is another story.

jhu1321
07-08-2012, 07:55 PM
I didn't say start him there. But if hey trade Stubbs or send him down, and put Heisey in CF.......surely Bruce can back him up.

And if they acquire Pierre (LF) and Upton (RF), surely Bruce could move to CF.

Frankly, I'd rather have Bruce in CF than Valdez.

Chances we get Upton = 1/100.

Vottomatic
07-08-2012, 07:58 PM
Chances we get Upton = 1/100.

Agree. Chances the Reds get anyone of quality = 0/100. They have nothing of quality to trade in return, unless they trade a key cog like Chapman. And they have pretty much zero payroll flexibility, again without trading someone making a ton of money already which would weaken the club anyway.

Virginia Beach Reds
07-08-2012, 08:40 PM
I'd welcome Juan Pierre...insert him at 1 or 2 five days a week and see what happens. Of course, that is my opinion. I don't think it would take much to acquire him and he's being paid less than a million this year.

WVRedsFan
07-08-2012, 09:29 PM
With your 1-2 hitters with OBP's of .298 and .286, it's difficult to have Votto drive them when they're not on base. If the do, they walk Votto or bunt the runner over making it an easy decision to use the IBB. Pierre might not be perfect, but if Dusty refuses to adjust the batting order, this may be the ticket. You know he'll play Pierre. He's a veteran.

PuffyPig
07-08-2012, 10:21 PM
All I ever hear is that playing the corner outfield position is harder than CF, in regard to judging hit balls.

And the comparison of Bruce having played CF to Phillips having played SS makes little sense to me since 2B and SS are two premium positions in terms of difficulty, and good outfielders can usually play all 3 positions pretty well.

Good CF's can usually play the other two, but not vice versa.

There are planty of good RF's who simply don't have the range to play CF.

Bruce would be servicable in CF, but you would drastically reduce the defense at two positions.

CrackerJack
07-08-2012, 11:33 PM
With your 1-2 hitters with OBP's of .298 and .286, it's difficult to have Votto drive them when they're not on base. If the do, they walk Votto or bunt the runner over making it an easy decision to use the IBB. Pierre might not be perfect, but if Dusty refuses to adjust the batting order, this may be the ticket. You know he'll play Pierre. He's a veteran.

Hitting .307 with a .344 OBP, currently having the 2nd best year of his career, not sure why though, but he's always in the mid-.300's with OBP at least, if it's about winning this year, then if you can get him for practically nothing, do it.

CrackerJack
07-08-2012, 11:38 PM
I have a very hard time believing he would be brought in to platoon.

I agree, although he might be treated like Rolen was by Dusty when he first came here, sitting once or twice a week.

WVPacman
07-09-2012, 12:08 AM
Let me repeat myself.

Juan Pierre cannot play centerfield. Period.

If acquired, he plays left, or is a bench player.

Well then trade stubbs and move Heisey to CF and let Pierre and Ludwick play left.:dunno:

We have to get stubbs out of the lineup!

oregonred
07-09-2012, 12:21 AM
Please stop the talk of Bruce moving to CF. That's giving me a headache and it just isn't going to happen -- ever.

757690
07-09-2012, 12:26 AM
Well then trade stubbs and move Heisey to CF and let Pierre and Ludwick play left.:dunno:

We have to get stubbs out of the lineup!

Offensively, Stubbs and Heisey are worth about the same. Almost identical wOBA's and Runs Created. Defensively, in CF, Stubbs is superior.

I understand the desire to get Stubbs out of the lineup, but replacing Stubbs with Heisey is a sidewise move at best.

WVPacman
07-09-2012, 12:31 AM
Offensively, Stubbs and Heisey are worth about the same. Almost identical wOBA's and Runs Created. Defensively, in CF, Stubbs is superior.

I understand the desire to get Stubbs out of the lineup, but replacing Stubbs with Heisey is a sidewise move at best.

I agree replacing heisey with stubbs is not the best choice BUT imo that or something else has to be done b/c stubbs is not cut out to play in cincy.He has laid a egg ever since he got here so the reds have to do what they have to as of right now and thats play heisey instead of stubbs.JMO

westofyou
07-09-2012, 01:19 AM
Please stop the talk of Bruce moving to CF. That's giving me a headache and it just isn't going to happen -- ever.

Ok.... but I have to wonder, can we restructure Wily Mo's contract so he can get some ab's in the minors?

Tom Servo
07-09-2012, 02:27 AM
Ok.... but I have to wonder, can we restructure Wily Mo's contract so he can get some ab's in the minors?
More importantly: Can Kearns play 3B?

WebScorpion
07-09-2012, 02:58 AM
Juan Pierre is not our solution. He can only play left field, and even that he can't do as well as Ludwick or Heisey, so he's probably not an overall upgrade from either of them. Our solution is to find a left fielder who is a legit run producer and move Brandon Phillips back to leadoff (Cozart to #2 and Stubbs down to 6th or 7th) where he belongs. Juan Pierre sounds like a good player for the Fantasy Reds, but he won't help in real baseball. That's my http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-forum/2c.gif (http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys.php).

RedsManRick
07-09-2012, 03:39 AM
Pierre isn't an ideal guy, but at this point I will accept anyone who can actually get on base in front of Joey Votto.

Sadly, I agree -- if only because he's a decent OBP guy that Dusty would actually bat at the top of the lineup.

jhu1321
07-09-2012, 09:05 AM
Agree. Chances the Reds get anyone of quality = 0/100. They have nothing of quality to trade in return, unless they trade a key cog like Chapman. And they have pretty much zero payroll flexibility, again without trading someone making a ton of money already which would weaken the club anyway.

Yes, I agree we don't have many MLB ready prospects but we do have some nice young arms at AA (Lotzgar, Corcino, Cingrani) and we have some blocked prospects who would draw some interest (Lutz, Gregorious,Soto). If Hrod Continues to hit at AAA level I'd like to see him brought up mid-way through the second half and maybe trade a blocked prospect for a lefty PH. My ideal solution would still remain a AA pitcher, a blocked prospect and Heisey for one Josh Willingham. Pipe dream. :beerme:

Scrap Irony
07-09-2012, 10:20 AM
I don't understand the Josh Willingham obsession. His number one comp in basball-reference is Ryan Ludwick.

jhu1321
07-09-2012, 12:43 PM
I don't understand the Josh Willingham obsession. His number one comp in basball-reference is Ryan Ludwick.

Not really even that close. Last 3 years averages BA/OBP/HR/RBI

Ludwick
.241/.314/14/57
Willingham
.258/.366/21/71

We need somebody who can get on base and drive in runs. Willingham has much more to offer the Ludwick.

Dan
07-09-2012, 12:49 PM
Not really even that close. Last 3 years averages BA/OBP/HR/RBI

Ludwick
.241/.314/14/57
Willingham
.258/.366/21/71

We need somebody who can get on base and drive in runs. Willingham has much more to offer the Ludwick.

I kinda have to agree with Scrap. Ludwick's slash line since June 1 is:

.276/.333/.571/.905

while Willingham's is

.242/.344/.500/.844

At this point, just move Ludwick to #4 and BP back to leadoff. Or batting #2 behind Pierre if he's acquired. I would prefer Denard Span, though.

Span
BP
Votto
Ludwick
Bruce
Frazier
Cozart
Mesigan

jhu1321
07-09-2012, 01:25 PM
I kinda have to agree with Scrap. Ludwick's slash line since June 1 is:

.276/.333/.571/.905

while Willingham's is

.242/.344/.500/.844

At this point, just move Ludwick to #4 and BP back to leadoff. Or batting #2 behind Pierre if he's acquired. I would prefer Denard Span, though.

Span
BP
Votto
Ludwick
Bruce
Frazier
Cozart
Mesigan

Sample size though. If we compared April/May, Willingham would have the clear advantage. Take away 2008-2009 from Ludwick's career and it's really no contest. Don't get me wrong, I hope Ludwick succeeds, I just can't see him keeping up that slash line for a long period.

Kc61
07-09-2012, 01:45 PM
I kinda have to agree with Scrap. Ludwick's slash line since June 1 is:

.276/.333/.571/.905

while Willingham's is

.242/.344/.500/.844

At this point, just move Ludwick to #4 and BP back to leadoff. Or batting #2 behind Pierre if he's acquired. I would prefer Denard Span, though.



If you just move Ludwick to fourth and Phillips to leadoff, how have you improved the team's OBP against right handed pitching?

As of now, the team's OBP against RHP is fourteenth in the NL. At .309.

And the team faces right handed pitching most of the time.

A mere shift in batting order isn't likely to change the team OBP very much.

Dan
07-09-2012, 02:00 PM
If you just move Ludwick to fourth and Phillips to leadoff, how have you improved the team's OBP against right handed pitching?

As of now, the team's OBP against RHP is fourteenth in the NL. At .309.

And the team faces right handed pitching most of the time.

A mere shift in batting order isn't likely to change the team OBP very much.

You'll note I mentioned acquiring Span or Pierre, both LH hitters. And Phillips OBP vs. RH is .336 at the moment.

Kc61
07-09-2012, 02:35 PM
You'll note I mentioned acquiring Span or Pierre, both LH hitters. And Phillips OBP vs. RH is .336 at the moment.

Yes, I know you proposed alternatives with a new lefty bat. I saw that and didn't mean to imply that you had only made one suggestion. It was included in my quote of your post.

I guess I don't understand the significance of Phillips' OBP. Yes, it is pretty good and putting him lead off would make sense, but the team's overall OBP would likely not improve meaningfully by just taking the same 8 guys and switching them around in the order.

Against RHP, the Reds' starting or semi-starting players include (OBP numbers) Heisey .313, Cozart .296, Ludwick .291, Mes .281, Stubbs .280, Rolen .248. Add to that Valdez at .212 and Cairo at .164. These are OBP, not BA, numbers.

You can move the batting order around forever, but if several of the above are playing the OBP against RHP will be poor. Replacements (or platoons) for some of them are needed.

RedEye
07-09-2012, 02:49 PM
I guess I don't understand the significance of Phillips' OBP. Yes, it is pretty good and putting him lead off would make sense, but the team's overall OBP would likely not improve meaningfully by just taking the same 8 guys and switching them around in the order.


Phillips is no On Base Machine, but he does actually manage to get on at a decent enough rate. That's more than we can say for the other options that have been slotted there.

I see your point about overall OBP not changing -- and I think quite a few posters have pointed out that batting order doesn't really make much of a difference after the first inning anyhow. OTOH, there is one basic insight about batting BP leadoff that makes sense -- he's one of the team's three best hitters (definitely better than Cozie and Stubbs at this point) and so it makes sense to try to get him as many AB's as possible. Leadoff hitters get more plate appearances than #4 hitters. So there's that.

Kc61
07-09-2012, 02:54 PM
Phillips is no On Base Machine, but he does actually manage to get on at a decent enough rate. That's more than we can say for the other options that have been slotted there.

I see your point about overall OBP not changing -- and I think quite a few posters have pointed out that batting order doesn't really make much of a difference after the first inning anyhow. OTOH, there is one basic insight about batting BP leadoff that makes sense -- he's one of the team's three best hitters (definitely better than Cozie and Stubbs at this point) and so it makes sense to try to get him as many AB's as possible. Leadoff hitters get more plate appearances than #4 hitters. So there's that.

Yes. And also, as a leadoff hitter, BP may concentrate more on OBP. He may take more walks. So I can see a slight increase in OBP if you move him to lead off.

But obviously, to fix the problem, the Reds need better OBP performances, primarily from LF and CF. I'm glad people are happy with Ludwick, but he doesn't bring the needed skills. Certainly Heisey and Stubbs don't either.

Improve LF and CF, get guys who hit righties and get on base, ultimately a leadoff hitter and cleanup hitter, and you're in business. I'll take one move for 2012.

RedEye
07-09-2012, 02:56 PM
Yes. And also, as a leadoff hitter, BP may concentrate more on OBP. He may take more walks. So I can see a slight increase in OBP if you move him to lead off.

But obviously, to fix the problem, the Reds need better OBP performances, primarily from LF and CF. I'm glad people are happy with Ludwick, but he doesn't bring the needed skills. Certainly Heisey and Stubbs don't either.

Improve LF and CF, get guys who hit righties and get on base, ultimately a leadoff hitter and cleanup hitter, and you're in business. I'll take one move for 2012.

Agreed. And of the two moves being discussed, getting Pierre is FAR more likely. But it is fun to think about pie-in-the-sky possibilities like Upton.

Kc61
07-09-2012, 02:57 PM
Agreed. And of the two moves being discussed, getting Pierre is FAR more likely. But it is fun to think about pie-in-the-sky possibilities like Upton.

Whomever the Reds get for leadoff, I think he will be a short term guy. They have their eyes on a future lead off hitter, a guy who is on his way to Pensacola after the Futures Game.

RedEye
07-09-2012, 03:00 PM
Whomever the Reds get for leadoff, I think he will be a short term guy. They have their eyes on a future lead off hitter, a guy who is on his way to Pensacola after the Futures Game.

If they can get Upton without dealing Hamilton, maybe they do it then.

westofyou
07-09-2012, 03:51 PM
Justin Upton a Red?

Nope, never will happen this year... maybe in 10 years, maybe 15, 5 or 9

This year?

No frigging way

RedEye
07-09-2012, 03:55 PM
Justin Upton a Red?

Nope, never will happen this year... maybe in 10 years, maybe 15, 5 or 9

This year?

No frigging way

Here's hoping you have to eat crow. ;)