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View Full Version : Pirates strongly going after Quentin or Upton



Vottomatic
07-08-2012, 01:43 PM
Per www.mlbtraderumors.com

I may have to laugh to keep from crying if this happens. Pirates pitching is for real. And their offense knows how to manufacture enough runs.

What sucks is that they have the payroll flexibility and farm system to make it happen and the Reds don't.

RedEye
07-08-2012, 01:46 PM
Per www.mlbtraderumors.com

I may have to laugh to keep from crying if this happens. Pirates pitching is for real. And their offense knows how to manufacture enough runs.

What sucks is that they have the payroll flexibility and farm system to make it happen and the Reds don't.

This would be a masterful move by the Pitt FO. They do know what they are doing, I think -- and a lineup around McCutchen and Upton would be hard to deal with for quite some time.

edabbs44
07-08-2012, 01:48 PM
I wouldn't sweat it too much.

Vottomatic
07-08-2012, 01:51 PM
I wouldn't sweat it too much.

This isn't directed at you. But that comment sounds like Reds management and their approach since 2010. They never seem to sweat anything, thus the .500 record of the team since 2010.

Who's to blame? Dusty? Walt? The players?...........hmmmm.

kaldaniels
07-08-2012, 01:51 PM
I'd love it if they got rid of Cole.

WVRedsFan
07-08-2012, 01:52 PM
I wouldn't sweat it too much.

Most would though, including the Reds FO. This team who was, according to many, going to die is in first place by a game over the Reds with little or so-called lucky hitting, but with a hammer of a pitching staff. It still hasn't happened. They are almost unbeatable at home so far and the addition of Upton or another bat would be very difficult for the Reds and Cardinals. The Reds better make a likewise move or we could be looking up at the Pirates for awhile,

kaldaniels
07-08-2012, 01:52 PM
This isn't directed at you. But that comment sounds like Reds management and their approach since 2010. They never seem to sweat anything, thus the .500 record of the team since 2010.

Who's to blame? Dusty? Walt? The players?...........hmmmm.

Where do you get that .500 number?

Tom Servo
07-08-2012, 01:52 PM
I am just amused how the Pirates are suddenly considered the model of all that is right in baseball. I guess the Reds should punt for 20 years and bank on finish .500 in 2032.

RedEye
07-08-2012, 01:54 PM
I am just amused how the Pirates are suddenly considered the model of all that is right in baseball. I guess the Reds should punt for 20 years and bank on finish .500 in 2032.

Who said that the Pirates are a model of all that is right in baseball?

cincrazy
07-08-2012, 01:54 PM
Hey, good for the Pirates. You know, the Reds can't acquire EVERY good player on the market. So if Walt doesn't land Upton, but the Pirates do, it's a failure on Walt's part? I mean come on. I want the Pirates to be relevant. Go get Upton. This is awesome and great to see. Baseball is alive and well in Ohio, and in Pittsburgh. Bring the rivalry back. This is exciting to me. It's going to be a fun race.

RedEye
07-08-2012, 01:56 PM
Hey, good for the Pirates. You know, the Reds can't acquire EVERY good player on the market. So if Walt doesn't land Upton, but the Pirates do, it's a failure on Walt's part? I mean come on. I want the Pirates to be relevant. Go get Upton. This is awesome and great to see. Baseball is alive and well in Ohio, and in Pittsburgh. Bring the rivalry back. This is exciting to me. It's going to be a fun race.

I don't think anyone has said missing on Upton would be a failure on Walt's part. We're just excited at the (possible) opportunity.

Tom Servo
07-08-2012, 01:57 PM
Who said that the Pirates are a model of all that is right in baseball?
I suppose it's hyperbole on my part, and it wasn't directed towards your comment about their FO, it's more of a comment on the obsession several posters here seem to have with the Pirates. To me, they're just another of our NL Central opponents.

Reds/Flyers Fan
07-08-2012, 01:58 PM
Per www.mlbtraderumors.com

I may have to laugh to keep from crying if this happens. Pirates pitching is for real. And their offense knows how to manufacture enough runs.

What sucks is that they have the payroll flexibility and farm system to make it happen and the Reds don't.

And, unlike the Reds, they have a GM who is willing to make mid-summer deals to correct deficiencies and improve their team.

WVRedsFan
07-08-2012, 01:59 PM
Reds are 125-121 in 2011 and so far this year
Reds are 216-192 from 2010-2012
Reds are 294-276 from 2009-now

Over .500 all the way.

The Operator
07-08-2012, 01:59 PM
Most would though, including the Reds FO. This team who was, according to many, going to die is in first place by a game over the RedsThey were in first place on July 25th last year. They ended up 72-90, fourth place - 24 games back in the division.

I'm not saying we should ignore them, but it's not like we haven't seen this before.

RedEye
07-08-2012, 01:59 PM
I suppose it's hyperbole on my part, and it wasn't directed towards your comment about their FO, it's more of a comment on the obsession several posters here seem to have with the Pirates. To me, they're just another of our NL Central opponents.

Fair enough. I can't speak for the others -- only that I'm excited to see that the Pirates are finally doing things right. When they brought in the new FO a few years back, I had a hunch they'd finally start to turn things around. I've been skeptical of their recent moves (Bedard, Burnett) but they seem to have been smart, at least for this season. Frankly, I'd welcome a sustainably competitive Pittsburgh team to the fray. I much prefer rooting against them than I do the Cards, Cubs or Astros. For some reason, I've never minded Milwaukee and Pittsburgh as much as I do the other three.

Kc61
07-08-2012, 02:00 PM
I have to believe that Walt and his FO are going to make a fairly significant deal. They didn't build up the payroll to sit around and watch the Pirates get better and potentially beat them out in the Central.

Just guessing here. Reds have been awfully quiet for a team with glaring and obvious deficiencies on offense. I think something will happen and I'd be very disappointed if the team essentially stands pat.

Vottomatic
07-08-2012, 02:02 PM
Where do you get that .500 number?

Unless I misheard him, Lance said it on his show this week.

I'll go look it up. And Lance's comment was that Dusty is basically .500 since the end of the 2010 regular season.

2010 LCS (0-3)
2011 79-83
(7 games under .500)
2012 46-38 (8 games over)

Okay, so Dusty is 1 game over .500 since the end of the 2010 regular season.

kaldaniels
07-08-2012, 02:02 PM
Reds are 125-121 in 2011 and so far this year
Reds are 216-192 from 2010-2012
Reds are 294-276 from 2009-now

Over .500 all the way.

Thank you. Nothing worse than putting up false information during a debate. It was the second time I've seen that falsehood posted in the last 24 hours. If you are coming to a debate with a controversial view at least be accurate.

kaldaniels
07-08-2012, 02:05 PM
Unless I misheard him, Lance said it on his show this week.

I'll go look it up. And Lance's comment was that Dusty is basically .500 since the end of the 2010 regular season.

2010 LCS (0-3)
2011 79-83
(7 games under .500)
2012 46-38 (8 games over)

Okay, so Dusty is 1 game over .500 since the end of the 2010 regular season.

Whether you know it or not (and I see you are just repeating Lance) but that is some serious playing with the numbers. The Reds have a winning record to this date if you start with most calendar days beginning at the start of 2010.

Vottomatic
07-08-2012, 02:07 PM
Thank you. Nothing worse than putting up false information during a debate. It was the second time I've seen that falsehood posted in the last 24 hours. If you are coming to a debate with a controversial view at least be accurate.

I just posted facts to back up what I said.

It's not Dusty's managerial career as a Red.......Lance's comment was since the end of the 2010 regular season.

Check my post above yours for the facts. :thumbup:

WVRedsFan
07-08-2012, 02:08 PM
Thank you. Nothing worse than putting up false information during a debate. It was the second time I've seen that falsehood posted in the last 24 hours. If you are coming to a debate with a controversial view at least be accurate.I've heard that on radio sports programs at least four times this week. While everyone of them are slobbering over their new darling, the Buccos, they have misrepresented the Reds' record. One Morgantown based media member said that if you take out the fluke 2010 season (his words) that the Reds are 203-205, so they have been as bad as the Pirates. Another local idiot even put the three playoff losses in 2010 in that record.

Sports media people sometimes spread false stuff to gain an audience. And you just can't dismiss the 91-71 championship season.

cincrazy
07-08-2012, 02:08 PM
I don't think anyone has said missing on Upton would be a failure on Walt's part. We're just excited at the (possible) opportunity.

I'm not necessarily indicting you by saying that, but from some posters, that's the sense that I get. Sure, there's an opportunity. For ANY team in baseball. That doesn't mean that it makes sense to acquire him. It makes more sense for the Pirates than it does for us. I wouldn't be against an Upton deal for the right price. But I'm skeptical about why they're giving him up, and also about the package it would take to get him.

Vottomatic
07-08-2012, 02:09 PM
Whether you know it or not (and I see you are just repeating Lance) but that is some serious playing with the numbers. The Reds have a winning record to this date if you start with most calendar days beginning at the start of 2010.

No. I heard him say it on his show and now I've gone to baseball-reference.com and posted the Red's won-loss record since the end of the 2010 regular season. But don't let the facts get in the way.

Not a falsehood and I just proved it. No playing with the numbers either.

Most playoff teams get better, not worse.

kaldaniels
07-08-2012, 02:09 PM
I just posted facts to back up what I said.

It's not Dusty's managerial career as a Red.......Lance's comment was since the end of the 2010 regular season.

Check my post above yours for the facts. :thumbup:

Your post said since 2010, a .500 winning %. I don't see how you back that up.

Vottomatic
07-08-2012, 02:10 PM
Your post said since 2010, a .500 winning %. I don't see how you back that up.

I just did back it up. And I clarified Lance's comment as saying since the end of the 2010 regular season which means the 3 playoff losses get factored into that .500 record, which is actually 1 game over .500 now.

PuffyPig
07-08-2012, 02:12 PM
Per www.mlbtraderumors.com

And their offense knows how to manufacture enough runs.



They have the 12th best OPS in the NL, and have scored the 12th most runs.

That would suggest they are "manufacturuing runs" at about he same rate as every one, assumming when you say "manufacture runs" you mean making more runs that your raw stats suggest.

kaldaniels
07-08-2012, 02:13 PM
I just did back it up. And I clarified Lance's comment as saying since the end of the 2010 regular season which means the 3 playoff losses get factored into that .500 record, which is actually 1 game over .500 now.

No, you moved the goalposts. The post that I took offense to did not say one word about leaving out the 2010 regular season but including the 2010 postseason. It simply said "since 2010".

You have since amended the remark in an attempt to pass the first one off as true.

Vottomatic
07-08-2012, 02:15 PM
I've heard that on radio sports programs at least four times this week. While everyone of them are slobbering over their new darling, the Buccos, they have misrepresented the Reds' record. One Morgantown based media member said that if you take out the fluke 2010 season (his words) that the Reds are 203-205, so they have been as bad as the Pirates. Another local idiot even put the three playoff losses in 2010 in that record.

Sports media people sometimes spread false stuff to gain an audience. And you just can't dismiss the 91-71 championship season.

What has Dusty had......1 winning season as Reds manager? This season remains to be determined.

I can dismiss 2010. It was lucky. Reds caught everyone by surprise like the Pirates might do this season, but the Pirates have better pitching than the Reds did in 2010.

edabbs44
07-08-2012, 02:16 PM
This isn't directed at you. But that comment sounds like Reds management and their approach since 2010. They never seem to sweat anything, thus the .500 record of the team since 2010.

Who's to blame? Dusty? Walt? The players?...........hmmmm.

Do you really think the Pirates have a better roster than the Reds?

elfmanvt07
07-08-2012, 02:16 PM
No. I heard him say it on his show and now I've gone to baseball-reference.com and posted the Red's won-loss record since the end of the 2010 regular season. But don't let the facts get in the way.

Not a falsehood and I just proved it. No playing with the numbers either.

Most playoff teams get better, not worse.

Not saying you're wrong, but the above bolded phrase is one that I'd LOVE to actually see some numbers on.

reds1869
07-08-2012, 02:17 PM
I can dismiss 2010. It was lucky. Reds caught everyone by surprise like the Pirates might do this season, but the Pirates have better pitching than the Reds did in 2010.

The Reds offense in 2010 was murderous. There is nothing lucky about that.

kaldaniels
07-08-2012, 02:17 PM
My quick math has the 2012 Reds pretty close to being on pace to match the 2010 record. Not quite, but close. So how do we call the 2010 Reds lucky?

Vottomatic
07-08-2012, 02:17 PM
No, you moved the goalposts. The post that I took offense to did not say one word about leaving out the 2010 regular season but including the 2010 postseason. It simply said "since 2010".

You have since amended the remark in an attempt to pass the first one off as true.

I see the literal and verbatim message board police are out in full force. I "clarified" Lance's comment. In my original post, I accidentally left out the rest of his comment. So shoot me. Unreal.

You took exception to what Lance said and I thought I should "clarify" it since I was shortsighted in my original post. But it's clear that nothing will satisfy you so I'll just move on.

But there is no falsehood. Dusty is 1 game over .500 since the end of the 2010 REGULAR SEASON. :thumbup:

PuffyPig
07-08-2012, 02:18 PM
And, unlike the Reds, they have a GM who is willing to make mid-summer deals to correct deficiencies and improve their team.


Would you like to list all those deals that the Pirates GM has made at the trade deadline to improve his team each year? Becuase the Pirates have won about 35% of it's games after the all star break in each of the last 4 years, so the team hasn't improved much.

kaldaniels
07-08-2012, 02:20 PM
I see the literal and verbatim message board police are out in full force. I "clarified" Lance's comment. In my original post, I accidentally left out the rest of his comment. So shoot me. Unreal.

You took exception to what Lance said and I thought I should "clarify" it since I was shortsided in my original post. But it's clear that nothing will satisfy you so I'll just move on.

But there is no falsehood. Dusty is 1 game over .500 since the end of the 2010 REGULAR SEASON. :thumbup:

As soon as you add in the cherry picked qualifiers, I won't argue because the "cherry-pickedness" speaks for itself. But as written your first post is not true but you refuse to concede that I see.

Vottomatic
07-08-2012, 02:20 PM
The Reds offense in 2010 was murderous. There is nothing lucky about that.

Hence my comment about the Pirates pitching and Walt's trade to obtain Mat Latos.

2010 Reds offense really murdered the Phillies in the playoffs, didn't they? How about that no-hit murder they displayed? Woo-hoo!!!! :laugh:

kaldaniels
07-08-2012, 02:21 PM
Would you like to list all those deals that the Pirates GM has made at the trade deadline to improve his team each year? Becuase the Pirates have won about 35% of it's games after the all star break in each of the last 4 years, so the team hasn't improved much.

I was gonna go there but didn't want to waste my time. I'm glad you did though.

Reds/Flyers Fan
07-08-2012, 02:21 PM
Well, last year they went out and made a move while Walt sat around and did nothing, just as he did in 2010. And this year they've been linked to Carlos Quentin and Justin Uptin, while the Reds are linked to 35-year-old retread Juan Pierre.

Vottomatic
07-08-2012, 02:22 PM
As soon as you add in the cherry picked qualifiers, I won't argue because the "cherry-pickedness" speaks for itself. But as written your first post is not true but you refuse to concede that I see.

I conceded I left out part of Lance's comment which in effect set the parameters of his comment. It was not fair to only post part of his comment which lead to your attack of it.

I don't know when the rules were set that I couldn't "correct" myself. But it's clear your all about "winning" the argument rather than discussing the facts, hence your cherry picking comment.

Let's move on.

Kc61
07-08-2012, 02:23 PM
My quick math has the 2012 Reds pretty close to being on pace to match the 2010 record. Not quite, but close. So how do we call the 2010 Reds lucky?

Reds had a .314 OBP as of this morning.

Reds had a .338 OBP in 2010.

Not close.

kaldaniels
07-08-2012, 02:23 PM
Reds had a .314 OBP as of this morning.

Reds had a .338 OBP in 2010.

Not close.

Base and pace are not synonyms.

Kc61
07-08-2012, 02:25 PM
Base and pace are not synonyms.

Reds had a .774 OPS in 2010.

Reds have a .730 OPS today.

I don't know about base and pace. I do know that the Reds' offense in 2010 was a heck of a lot better than it is this year.

reds1869
07-08-2012, 02:25 PM
Hence my comment about the Pirates pitching and Walt's trade to obtain Mat Latos.

2010 Reds offense really murdered the Phillies in the playoffs, didn't they? How about that no-hit murder they displayed? Woo-hoo!!!! :laugh:

Because a bad three game stretch against a great pitching staff outweighs the entire season, right? Playoff baseball is a role of the dice.

Plus Plus
07-08-2012, 02:26 PM
Hence my comment about the Pirates pitching and Walt's trade to obtain Mat Latos.

2010 Reds offense really murdered the Phillies in the playoffs, didn't they? How about that no-hit murder they displayed? Woo-hoo!!!! :laugh:

No-hitters are little more than randomness meeting luck. If you look at the teams that have been no-hit in the last couple of years, you have some excellent offensive teams such as the 2012 Cardinals, the 2012 Dodgers, the 2011 Blue Jays, the 2010 Rays (twice), and the 2010 Braves.

Sometimes pitchers pitch really well. Halladay's 2010 no-no would have shut down the 1976 Reds.

And if you don't want the "literal and verbatim message board police out in full force [sic]" then qualify your positions instead of posting reactionary and untrue statements and trying to put them off as fact.

Vottomatic
07-08-2012, 02:29 PM
Not saying you're wrong, but the above bolded phrase is one that I'd LOVE to actually see some numbers on.

There's always aging and the changing of the guard. But the 2010 Reds were young and really had no where to go but up. Last year was pathetic. I don't know what to think about this season. Maybe they get hot and prove me wrong. But I've been singing the same tune since the end of 2010 about the lineup. I've never been a Stubbs fan and pretty much saw this coming.

Some other poster on here ranted on another thread about the Reds brass sticking with their pets way too long, such as Rolen and Stubbs. It was a good rant that I agree with.

I never understood signing Votto and not putting someone else behind him to protect him in the lineup. Pujols had Holliday. Fielder and Braun had eachother. You need a good solid 3 & 4 hitter combination to go places. Reds have failed in this area for awhile now.

Reds/Flyers Fan
07-08-2012, 02:29 PM
Because a bad three game stretch against a great pitching staff outweighs the entire season, right? Playoff baseball is a role of the dice.

Yet it wasn't hard to predict exactly what would happen in that series. The moment Dusty tabbed Volquez to pitch game one, the ominous dark clouds started rolling in. Nobody thought they'd get no-hit in Game 1 and swept in the series, but few thought the Reds could win three games.

Walt absolutely needed to go out in July 2010 and get some help with an eye on October. Instead he did what he does best: nothing.

757690
07-08-2012, 02:31 PM
Quote from Redszone archives, June 8th, 1972


This isn't directed at you. But that comment sounds like Reds management and their approach since 1970. They never seem to sweat anything, thus the .500 record of the team since 1970. (if you include the 4-1 World Series loss in 1970)

Who's to blame? Sparky? Howsam? The players?...........hmmmm.

traderumor
07-08-2012, 02:33 PM
I see the literal and verbatim message board police are out in full force. I "clarified" Lance's comment. In my original post, I accidentally left out the rest of his comment. So shoot me. Unreal.

You took exception to what Lance said and I thought I should "clarify" it since I was shortsighted in my original post. But it's clear that nothing will satisfy you so I'll just move on.

But there is no falsehood. Dusty is 1 game over .500 since the end of the 2010 REGULAR SEASON. :thumbup:
So we are rooting for the Dusty's? I thought I followed the Cincinnati Reds franchise, which included ownership, management, players. Now I find out that the results are all on the field manager. How enlightening. The ultimate puppet master.

Plus Plus
07-08-2012, 02:33 PM
Quote from Redszone archives, June 8th, 1972

I love it! :beerme:

reds44
07-08-2012, 02:35 PM
Well, last year they went out and made a move while Walt sat around and did nothing, just as he did in 2010. And this year they've been linked to Carlos Quentin and Justin Uptin, while the Reds are linked to 35-year-old retread Juan Pierre.
Clearly that move they went out and made looked like a charm too with them finishing 72-90. Great job by their GM if you ask me.

reds1869
07-08-2012, 02:37 PM
Yet it wasn't hard to predict exactly what would happen in that series. The moment Dusty tabbed Volquez to pitch game one, the ominous dark clouds started rolling in. Nobody thought they'd get no-hit in Game 1 and swept in the series, but few thought the Reds could win three games.

Walt absolutely needed to go out in July 2010 and get some help with an eye on October. Instead he did what he does best: nothing.

I completely agree with what you are saying. The Reds were never going to win a playoff series against that Phillies team. But that doesn't mean the Reds record in 2010 was "luck." Winning 91 games is a nice achievement.

traderumor
07-08-2012, 02:40 PM
Alice fell down the rabbit hole, I fall into the banana phone in way too many discussions on this board these days.

westofyou
07-08-2012, 02:45 PM
Alice fell down the rabbit hole, I fall into the banana phone in way too many discussions on this board these days.

Talk radio is certainly a vestige of a bygone era, but the nostalgic heft of its once grand pertinence is currently drowned in a sea of its obvious shortcomings.

Vottomatic
07-08-2012, 02:47 PM
Quote from Redszone archives, June 8th, 1972

This post makes no sense. Howsam didn't sit on his butt. He traded for Morgan, Geronimo and Billingham, while trading away fan favorite Lee May. :thumbup:

Brutus
07-08-2012, 02:49 PM
I see the literal and verbatim message board police are out in full force. I "clarified" Lance's comment. In my original post, I accidentally left out the rest of his comment. So shoot me. Unreal.

You took exception to what Lance said and I thought I should "clarify" it since I was shortsighted in my original post. But it's clear that nothing will satisfy you so I'll just move on.

But there is no falsehood. Dusty is 1 game over .500 since the end of the 2010 REGULAR SEASON. :thumbup:

That's a pretty serious case of cherry-picking to exclude the 2010 season but include the end of the season.

If you have to eliminate a playoff season and only include one series at the end of a season to knock a front office, chances are your case isn't very strong at the outset.

757690
07-08-2012, 02:50 PM
This post makes no sense. Howsam didn't sit on his butt. He traded for Morgan, Geronimo and Billingham, while trading away fan favorite Lee May. :thumbup:

I guess Jocketty was sitting on his butt when he traded for Latos and Marshall, and signed Madsen and Ludwick. :confused:

Brutus
07-08-2012, 02:51 PM
This post makes no sense. Howsam didn't sit on his butt. He traded for Morgan, Geronimo and Billingham, while trading away fan favorite Lee May. :thumbup:

It sure didn't seem like the front office was sitting on its rear end this offseason either, as the Reds traded for Latos and Marshall and signed Ryan Madson as a free agent.

I'm honestly not sure what point you're making. The Reds clearly didn't stand pat before this season.

Vottomatic
07-08-2012, 02:54 PM
It sure didn't seem like the front office was sitting on its rear end this offseason either, as the Reds traded for Latos and Marshall and signed Ryan Madson as a free agent.

I'm honestly not sure what point you're making. The Reds clearly didn't stand pat before this season.

Since 2010 the Reds needed to address the following things:
1. Ace #1 pitcher
2. Shortstop
3. Leadoff Hitter
4. Cleanup Hitter

It's debatable if Latos fulfills #1, but I praised the trade.
Cozart emerged but they wasted a whole month last season not calling him up.
3 & 4 have not been resolved.

Hence my saying on other threads this team arrives in 2014.

Vottomatic
07-08-2012, 02:57 PM
That's a pretty serious case of cherry-picking to exclude the 2010 season but include the end of the season.

If you have to eliminate a playoff season and only include one series at the end of a season to knock a front office, chances are your case isn't very strong at the outset.

Cherry picking?

Okay. In 5 seasons as Reds manager Dusty has a .503 winning percentage per baseball-reference.com. But I suppose you'll want to cherry pick and leave out his 2008 and 2009 seasons. :rolleyes:

Very impressive indeed.

Brutus
07-08-2012, 03:02 PM
Cherry picking?

Okay. In 5 seasons as Reds manager Dusty has a .503 winning percentage per baseball-reference.com. But I suppose you'll want to cherry pick and leave out his 2008 and 2009 seasons. :rolleyes:

Very impressive indeed.

Now you're moving the goal posts. What does Dusty Baker have to do with the front office?

And yes, including one series of a season but excluding the rest of a 90+ win season is by definition cherry-picking. It's selecting a sample that best represents an argument.

If the front office, as it currently exists, is to be fairly critiqued, it's not prudent to ignore the overall body of work. I'm really not sure what Dusty Baker has to do with your own complaints about the front office...

traderumor
07-08-2012, 03:06 PM
Since 2010 the Reds needed to address the following things:
1. Ace #1 pitcher
2. Shortstop
3. Leadoff Hitter
4. Cleanup Hitter

It's debatable if Latos fulfills #1, but I praised the trade.
Cozart emerged but they wasted a whole month last season not calling him up.
3 & 4 have not been resolved.

Hence my saying on other threads this team arrives in 2014.

With all the incompetence, how do you expect them to succeed two years down the road, when current areas that are good may need addressed by then?

westofyou
07-08-2012, 03:07 PM
With all the incompetence, how do you expect them to succeed two years down the road, when current areas that are good may need addressed by then?

Lance McAllister as GM?

HeatherC1212
07-08-2012, 03:12 PM
Its nice to see the Pirates being relevant in MLB right now....I actually haven't seen that in my lifetime, LOL ;) Who knows how long it will last but I'd rather have the Reds under the radar in the second half than be the talk of the town all the time. Keeps the players hungry and lets them just play baseball instead of live up to hype. :)

And just for the record, I feel bad for anyone who actually takes things that are said on our Cincy news radio stations seriously. They are a joke more often than not and I can't even tolerate five minutes of them anymore. :eek: :eek: :eek:

Vottomatic
07-08-2012, 03:13 PM
Now you're moving the goal posts. What does Dusty Baker have to do with the front office?

And yes, including one series of a season but excluding the rest of a 90+ win season is by definition cherry-picking. It's selecting a sample that best represents an argument.

If the front office, as it currently exists, is to be fairly critiqued, it's not prudent to ignore the overall body of work. I'm really not sure what Dusty Baker has to do with your own complaints about the front office...

I simply cited Dusty's overall winning percentage as Reds manager. I don't see anywhere in that post where I brought up the front office or anyone else.

But feel free, and I'm positive you will, to continue arguing something that isn't there to argue about.

Fact: Dusty Baker has a .503 winning percentage in his career as Reds manager.

Brutus
07-08-2012, 03:14 PM
I simply cited Dusty's overall winning percentage as Reds manager. I don't see anywhere in that post where I brought up the front office or anyone else.

But feel free, and I'm positive you will, to continue arguing something that isn't there to argue about.

Fact: Dusty Baker has a .503 winning percentage in his career as Reds manager.

The post you responded to was about the front office. You have been arguing against the front office in this thread. So what does Dusty Baker have to do with the front office?

As my grandma used to say... what does that have to do with the price of rice in China?

Vottomatic
07-08-2012, 03:15 PM
Lance McAllister as GM?

Just because I quoted him does not make me a fan.

And his quote was accurate at the time.

PuffyPig
07-08-2012, 03:19 PM
Well, last year they went out and made a move while Walt sat around and did nothing, just as he did in 2010. And this year they've been linked to Carlos Quentin and Justin Uptin, while the Reds are linked to 35-year-old retread Juan Pierre.


So, last year they "made a move", which was so great that you seemingly can't remember what it was (maybe it was a bowel movement?), and then they immediately tanked the season, and this year they are "linked to moves".

So, that's your evidence that the Pirates GM can get it done at the deadline.

You can always tell when a poster has an agenda when they make statements with little to no evidence to support it.

This is not a case of anyone really thinking the Pirates are the answers to baseball's prayers, it's just another opportunity to pile on the Reds. Which is the very definiton of a Troll.

Vottomatic
07-08-2012, 03:21 PM
The post you responded to was about the front office. You have been arguing against the front office in this thread. So what does Dusty Baker have to do with the front office?

As my grandma used to say... what does that have to do with the price of rice in China?

No. I have several discussions going on in this thread. You're convienently mixing the discussions.

I got attacked for quoting Lance McAlister and simply had to clarify what his quote said, to which I got attacked again for clarifying. Then I got accused of cherry picking, after citing someone else's quote then going to baseball-reference.com to back it up with facts, even though I really don't care in the scheme of life, and got attacked again. So much for having a friendly discussion on here.

As for the Dusty discussion, he has a .503 Reds managing career winning percentage and until the results of this season are finished, 1 winning season.

kaldaniels
07-08-2012, 03:23 PM
No. I have several discussions going on in this thread. You're convienently mixing the discussions.

I got attacked for quoting Lance McAlister and simply had to clarify what his quote said, to which I got attacked again for clarifying. Then I got accused of cherry picking, after citing someone else's quote then going to baseball-reference.com to back it up with facts, even though I really don't care in the scheme of life, and got attacked again. So much for having a friendly discussion on here.

As for the Dusty discussion, he has a .503 Reds managing career winning percentage and until the results of this season are finished, 1 winning season.

You didn't quote Lance, you misquoted him.

Vottomatic
07-08-2012, 03:30 PM
With all the incompetence, how do you expect them to succeed two years down the road, when current areas that are good may need addressed by then?

Interesting. Keep in mind that YOU just called Reds management incompetent.

Acquired Latos, Madson, Chapman, Marshall.
Signed Bruce, Cueto, Votto, Phillips long term. Retained Arroyo.

They're not incompetent. Not all the pieces of the puzzle are in place for major success. Still need that leadoff hitter/high OBP guys in front of Votto, and need a legit cleanup hitter behind Votto.

Current areas addressed? Barring career ending injuries which aren't predictable, 1B Votto, 2B Phillips, SS Cozart, 3B Frazier or maybe Vidal, C Mez and maybe still Hanigan if re-signed, RF Bruce........and more than likely LF and CF will be the leadoff and cleanup hitters if they either are able to fill those spots through the farm system (maybe Hamilton at leadoff) or through trade or free agency. Leake and Bailey are just now headed into arbitration. Cueto is signed. Latos is still aways from free agency. Hopefully Cingrani, Corcino, Travieso, Stephenson, etc. emerge as replacements if not traded. Bullpen will still be solid in 2014. Like I said. They've been building this team for awhile. But still more pieces to the puzzle to put in place.

Vottomatic
07-08-2012, 03:34 PM
You didn't quote Lance, you misquoted him.

Not gonna let it go are you. Now who's cherry picking?

I misquoted at first and then corrected it. But gee, hold me to the original misquote. When it comes to posters attacking over a misquote that got quickly corrected, I got better things in life to do then to bother with this silliness. And the nonsense in this thread is beyond the pail, seriously.

I really think some of you like to argue just to hear yourself argue.

I'm gonna slip out now and save myself the rest of the day to do something fun and important. :thumbup:

Go Reds!

jojo
07-08-2012, 03:51 PM
I suppose it's hyperbole on my part, and it wasn't directed towards your comment about their FO, it's more of a comment on the obsession several posters here seem to have with the Pirates. To me, they're just another of our NL Central opponents.

To be fair the current regime in Pitt essentially inherited scorched earth. That the Pirates are buyers at the ASB, is good for baseball and probably a legitimate testament to the competence of the Pirates FO.

fearofpopvol1
07-08-2012, 03:56 PM
I hope they land Quentin and pay through the nose for him.

Reds/Flyers Fan
07-08-2012, 04:00 PM
Clearly that move they went out and made looked like a charm too with them finishing 72-90. Great job by their GM if you ask me.

Certainly that move they made last July was a non-factor in helping them get to the post-season, or even produce a winning season. But they were aggressive and went out there and tried to correct a weakness. As a fan, you really can't ask for more than that out of trade deadline time.

This time around, if one of the rumored deals comes to fruition (Upton, Quentin), you'd have to say they would take another big step toward correcting their deficiencies. And there's no doubt that such moves are a big shot in the arm to the current players, as they know the front office is behind them. You can't convince me that there weren't some Reds players let down in 2010 and 2011 when no deadline moves were made. And then it's doubly disconcerting to see the teams you're fighting with in the division (Cards, Pirates, Brewers recently) go out and get guys.

757690
07-08-2012, 04:05 PM
I hope they land Quentin and pay through the nose for him.

Completely agree.

edabbs44
07-08-2012, 04:17 PM
They're not incompetent. Not all the pieces of the puzzle are in place for major success. Still need that leadoff hitter/high OBP guys in front of Votto, and need a legit cleanup hitter behind Votto.

FYI, your model organization has "D Sutton" leading off today and Garret Jones hitting behind the Pitt version of Votto.

kaldaniels
07-08-2012, 04:29 PM
Not gonna let it go are you. Now who's cherry picking?

I misquoted at first and then corrected it. But gee, hold me to the original misquote. When it comes to posters attacking over a misquote that got quickly corrected, I got better things in life to do then to bother with this silliness. And the nonsense in this thread is beyond the pail, seriously.

I really think some of you like to argue just to hear yourself argue.

I'm gonna slip out now and save myself the rest of the day to do something fun and important. :thumbup:

Go Reds!

Vottomatic, you asked to move on from our discussion and I obliged. Then in post 69 you brought our discussion up to Brutus citing how I attacked you for quoting Lance. To which I responded. If you want to snipe me I at least deserve a response.

Brutus
07-08-2012, 04:30 PM
No. I have several discussions going on in this thread. You're convienently mixing the discussions.

I got attacked for quoting Lance McAlister and simply had to clarify what his quote said, to which I got attacked again for clarifying. Then I got accused of cherry picking, after citing someone else's quote then going to baseball-reference.com to back it up with facts, even though I really don't care in the scheme of life, and got attacked again. So much for having a friendly discussion on here.

As for the Dusty discussion, he has a .503 Reds managing career winning percentage and until the results of this season are finished, 1 winning season.

I wasn't discussing Dusty. Yet, in response to something I said about the front office, you were the one that brought him up. So how am I the one mixing discussions?

kaldaniels
07-08-2012, 04:31 PM
I'm sorry for getting into it with Vottomatic guys, it's just not worth it. I have ignored him in the past but some of you quote him in your posts so I can't escape him completely. Thanks a lot. :D

membengal
07-08-2012, 04:36 PM
FYI, your model organization has "D Sutton" leading off today and Garret Jones hitting behind the Pitt version of Votto.

Garrett Jones with the 12 homeruns who is killing his side of the platoon split? You are right, laughable. Score one for you, one less for the Pirates.

Brutus
07-08-2012, 04:45 PM
Garrett Jones with the 12 homeruns who is killing his side of the platoon split? You are right, laughable. Score one for you, one less for the Pirates.

Jones is basically Ryan Ludwick right now.

.290 OBP / .500 SLG

The Operator
07-08-2012, 05:14 PM
Interesting. Keep in mind that YOU just called Reds management incompetent. You need to invest in an internet sarcasm detector.

The Operator
07-08-2012, 05:37 PM
Remember this? :)

http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=89749&highlight=pirates

SidneySlicker
07-08-2012, 06:04 PM
Well it's my opinion that Upton is one of the most overrated players in baseball, and if the Pirates want to soak 28 million dollars over the next two years on him let them do it.

OldXOhio
07-08-2012, 06:55 PM
I say bring it on Pirates. Would love to see how the Reds respond while watching the overall play of the Central improve.

traderumor
07-08-2012, 07:09 PM
Interesting. Keep in mind that YOU just called Reds management incompetent.

Acquired Latos, Madson, Chapman, Marshall.
Signed Bruce, Cueto, Votto, Phillips long term. Retained Arroyo.

They're not incompetent. Not all the pieces of the puzzle are in place for major success. Still need that leadoff hitter/high OBP guys in front of Votto, and need a legit cleanup hitter behind Votto.

Current areas addressed? Barring career ending injuries which aren't predictable, 1B Votto, 2B Phillips, SS Cozart, 3B Frazier or maybe Vidal, C Mez and maybe still Hanigan if re-signed, RF Bruce........and more than likely LF and CF will be the leadoff and cleanup hitters if they either are able to fill those spots through the farm system (maybe Hamilton at leadoff) or through trade or free agency. Leake and Bailey are just now headed into arbitration. Cueto is signed. Latos is still aways from free agency. Hopefully Cingrani, Corcino, Travieso, Stephenson, etc. emerge as replacements if not traded. Bullpen will still be solid in 2014. Like I said. They've been building this team for awhile. But still more pieces to the puzzle to put in place.There are times when I do not want to insult someone's intelligence by pointing out seemingly obvious sarcastic intent. This was one of those times.

757690
07-08-2012, 07:15 PM
I say bring it on Pirates. Would love to see how the Reds respond while watching the overall play of the Central improve.

Yep, sick and tired of the NL Central being referred to as a weak division.

Vottomatic
07-08-2012, 07:29 PM
There are times when I do not want to insult someone's intelligence by pointing out seemingly obviuos sarcastic intent. This was one of those times.

I got the sarcasm, but didn't respond to it, for the sole reason of not letting him put words in my mouth. He was trying to make it look like I was calling management incompetent.

Too many games on here. Can't post an opinion without ending up in a 10 page debate or argument. It gets old. Can't be critical of the Reds without being deemed a troll (saw someone else get called this earlier in the thread). I guess you have to proofread your own posts 10 times, edit, use the correct words or meaning, or have some petty attack because you maybe used a wrong word or something.

When did a friendly discussion have to become this difficult?

Where I grew up we learned to agree to disagree. :thumbup:

RedEye
07-08-2012, 07:34 PM
Well it's my opinion that Upton is one of the most overrated players in baseball, and if the Pirates want to soak 28 million dollars over the next two years on him let them do it.

Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man...

Seriously though, I'm not just quoting The Dude. How is a player who has already put up two near-.900 OPS seasons by the age of 24 overrated? Possible shoulder injury notwithstanding, Upton is some pretty good company historically with what he's done so far. Whether the Reds can afford to get him is another question -- but I don't think $28 million over two years is an overpay.

traderumor
07-08-2012, 07:34 PM
I got the sarcasm, but didn't respond to it, for the sole reason of not letting him put words in my mouth. He was trying to make it look like I was calling management incompetent.

Too many games on here. Can't post an opinion without ending up in a 10 page debate or argument. It gets old. Can't be critical of the Reds without being deemed a troll (saw someone else get called this earlier in the thread). I guess you have to proofread your own posts 10 times, edit, use the correct words or meaning, or have some petty attack because you maybe used a wrong word or something.

When did a friendly discussion have to become this difficult?

Where I grew up we learned to agree to disagree. :thumbup:I think what has been demonstrated that you don't want to seem to hear is that there is a little bit more expected from folks on this board than bringing really bad arguments made by people in bars, Lance McAllister, and the various sports "personalities" on WLW. If you bring that level of argumentation into discussions, expect to get push back, and deservedly so.

_Sir_Charles_
07-08-2012, 07:36 PM
Remember this? :)

http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=89749&highlight=pirates (http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=89749&highlight=pirates)

Yes, I do. :O) I've since learned my lesson about quoting people. Well, certainly MASS quoting. *grin*

But my point hasn't changed. I still felt like their hitting would improve...just too talented not to IMO. And while their pitching was good and it regressed as I expected...they added two extremely talented arms who've underperformed lately too in Burnett and Bedard. I don't feel that they're close to being better than we are, but they're quickly moving in the right direction. The talent in their farm system is what has me most worried right now.

Vottomatic
07-08-2012, 07:45 PM
I think what has been demonstrated that you don't want to seem to hear is that there is a little bit more expected from folks on this board than bringing really bad arguments made by people in bars, Lance McAllister, and the various sports "personalities" on WLW. If you bring that level of argumentation into discussions, expect to get push back, and deservedly so.

It's beyond silly to me. I referenced a Lance McAlister statement from his show. Misquoted it at first, then corrected it and backed it up with statistical fact when I realized it had become a point of scrutiny, and it was followed by a gazillion pages of push back. Petty, to say the least.

But back to the topic at hand..........

Reds better get hot. I read Doug's list of his opinion of our prospects to deal, and he's right. We don't have much. I don't look for the Reds to upgrade unless some team is simply unloading salary and the Reds are willing to take it on. And I sure hate to give away some of those prospects.

Cards and Pirates are in much better positions to upgrade, IMHO.

Vottomatic
07-08-2012, 07:48 PM
Yes, I do. :O) I've since learned my lesson about quoting people. Well, certainly MASS quoting. *grin*

But my point hasn't changed. I still felt like their hitting would improve...just too talented not to IMO. And while their pitching was good and it regressed as I expected...they added two extremely talented arms who've underperformed lately too in Burnett and Bedard. I don't feel that they're close to being better than we are, but they're quickly moving in the right direction. The talent in their farm system is what has me most worried right now.

They're getting efficiency out of their offense where the Reds seem to struggle. Reds won today, but I think they K'd like 4 times with men on third to end an inning. I'd have to go look it up for sure though.

traderumor
07-08-2012, 07:53 PM
It's beyond silly to me. I referenced a Lance McAlister statement from his show. Misquoted it at first, then corrected it and backed it up with statistical fact when I realized it had become a point of scrutiny, and it was followed by a gazillion pages of push back. Petty, to say the least.

But back to the topic at hand..........

Reds better get hot. I read Doug's list of his opinion of our prospects to deal, and he's right. We don't have much. I don't look for the Reds to upgrade unless some team is simply unloading salary and the Reds are willing to take it on. And I sure hate to give away some of those prospects.

Cards and Pirates are in much better positions to upgrade, IMHO.Bad arguments are bad arguments. Just like fat pitches, someone's gonna light it up if you bring it in there.

REDREAD
07-09-2012, 03:38 PM
Hence my comment about the Pirates pitching and Walt's trade to obtain Mat Latos.

2010 Reds offense really murdered the Phillies in the playoffs, didn't they? How about that no-hit murder they displayed? Woo-hoo!!!! :laugh:

2010: I think they finished second in the league in runs scored.
That should carry more weight than how they did in 3 playoff games (or 1 playoff game) when judging the offense.

REDREAD
07-09-2012, 03:41 PM
Well, last year they went out and made a move while Walt sat around and did nothing, just as he did in 2010. And this year they've been linked to Carlos Quentin and Justin Uptin, while the Reds are linked to 35-year-old retread Juan Pierre.

The Pirates made some moves last year, but didn't make the playoffs.
They should be judged as harshly Walt is. You give Walt a D+ this season so far, despite Latos, Marshall, etc..

The Pirates made a few meh moves last year which didn't get them to the playoffs.. Shouldn't that equate with a D grade or worse?

DGullett35
07-09-2012, 03:56 PM
This years Pirates team reminds me of the 2011 Cleveland Indians the first month or two in the season. The Indians had the best record in baseball in the middle of May then fell off very badly in the second half. They had great pitching and an OK offense. Chris Perez reminds me of Hanrahan also. Those 2 teams seem earily alike. Im not saying the Pirates are going to fade and Im not saying they are going to go on and win the Central but I do know that it will be very fun to watch the Reds, Cards, and Buccos battle it out until the end. I still hold by the saying that pitching and defense win championships. This Reds team has the best defense and our rotation has been arguably the top 3 rotations in the National League (Nats and Giants probably are 1-2 respectively) We just need a little timely hitting in the second half and either a leadoff hitter or a middle of the order bat and we'll be fine. let the Pirates go out and get whoever they want. remember the Indians went out and traded 3 extremely good prospects for Ubaldo Jimenez. Maybe the Pirates go out and trade away the farm for someone that won't really help them all that much. Upton is a good player but hes not game changer like Kemp or Hamilton. Also they're has to be a reason the DBacks would want to part ways with him other than the fact hes been injured and hasn't produced thsi year. he was raved about last year by Kirk Gibson and that coaching staff. I still think when all is said and done the Reds are a better team than the Pirates.

The Operator
07-09-2012, 04:01 PM
I love how being "linked" to trades is being used as proof the Pirates FO is better than The Reds. The Reds have been "linked" to plenty of deals as well over the last few years.

LoganBuck
07-09-2012, 04:03 PM
Why are people so infatuated with Carlos Quentin? The guy is as big a boom/BUST player as I have ever seen, he makes Jay Bruce look like the model of day after day consistency. He is OPSing .665 with 2 HR and a .185 BA in the last 30 days. Yeah he will go off for a week again here shortly then back to totally worthless. If the Pirates go get him I will laugh at them. I thought the Reds should look into him two months ago. Now that Ludwick is giving them something, I don't want any part of Quentin.

Upton is an enigma. He has some lurking injury suspicion, and has a decent sized, but not unmanageable contract. I would love to see him patrolling left field, with Votto, Bruce, and Phillips, along with the three rookies, and the pitching staff, the core would be set. All that would be needed would be a legit leadoff bat for centerfield. It would be the most exciting thing that has happened to this team in a very long time.

wolfboy
07-09-2012, 04:14 PM
I love how being "linked" to trades is being used as proof the Pirates FO is better than The Reds. The Reds have been "linked" to plenty of deals as well over the last few years.

During the Bowden era the Reds were linked to every deal that was ever mentioned on the interwebs (and beyond). A whole fat lotta good that did.

bucksfan2
07-09-2012, 04:31 PM
Why are people so infatuated with Carlos Quentin? The guy is as big a boom/BUST player as I have ever seen, he makes Jay Bruce look like the model of day after day consistency. He is OPSing .665 with 2 HR and a .185 BA in the last 30 days. Yeah he will go off for a week again here shortly then back to totally worthless. If the Pirates go get him I will laugh at them. I thought the Reds should look into him two months ago. Now that Ludwick is giving them something, I don't want any part of Quentin.

Upton is an enigma. He has some lurking injury suspicion, and has a decent sized, but not unmanageable contract. I would love to see him patrolling left field, with Votto, Bruce, and Phillips, along with the three rookies, and the pitching staff, the core would be set. All that would be needed would be a legit leadoff bat for centerfield. It would be the most exciting thing that has happened to this team in a very long time.

I was talking to my buddy about this boom or bust theory and more often than not those types of players are the deciding factor in playoff runs and championships. When the Giants won the world series in 2010 two of their biggest offensive forces were Renteria and Cody Ross. One an aging SS and the other a guy claimed passed through waivers. Last year the Rangers rode the bat of Nelson Cruz into the World Series.

Carols Quinten may be boom or bust, but boom in a short series may just win that series. I wouldn't give up a lot for him, but adding him into the order which allows Phillips to move up to leadoff would make this team better, wouldn't it?

Kc61
07-09-2012, 04:47 PM
Pirates home ERA is 2.39.

Pirates road ERA is 4.65.

Pirates can add all the hitters they want, but if they don't improve their pitching on the road they are going no place. Pirates are now 19-23 on the road with 39 away games to go.

Reds pitching is far more consistent, home and road. Reds are 24-22 on the road, even with subpar hitting in away games. Reds have 35 road games left.

Reds could do a tad better at home (23-16).

RedEye
07-09-2012, 05:57 PM
During the Bowden era the Reds were linked to every deal that was ever mentioned on the interwebs (and beyond). A whole fat lotta good that did.

Of course, the owner at that point wasn't as much of a wild card as this one. And I don't think he cared about winning as much.

The past several years have been so unpredictable to me that I honestly won't be surprised if Bob pulls another one out of his hat. Off the top of my head -- 2006 brought "The Trade" (for me, a surprise in a bad way), 2009 brought the Rolen deal (first a nightmare, but then I understood it later), 2010 brought the Chapman deal (maybe my biggest Reds surprise acquisition ever) and the past few months have brought two long-term contracts that I never expected in a million years.

All depends on what Walt et al. can convince Bob they need. I honestly believe that if they think Upton is the missing piece, Bob might just do it. He's surprised us before.

Plus Plus
07-09-2012, 06:57 PM
It's beyond silly to me. I referenced a Lance McAlister statement from his show. Misquoted it at first, then corrected it and backed it up with statistical fact when I realized it had become a point of scrutiny, and it was followed by a gazillion pages of push back. Petty, to say the least.

But back to the topic at hand..........

Reds better get hot. I read Doug's list of his opinion of our prospects to deal, and he's right. We don't have much. I don't look for the Reds to upgrade unless some team is simply unloading salary and the Reds are willing to take it on. And I sure hate to give away some of those prospects.

Cards and Pirates are in much better positions to upgrade, IMHO.

First off, the trade market could be very strange this year, as expensive and elite players who used to cost a lot in terms of prospects because of the arbitration rules in place could cost much less because there is now no draft pick attached to the player. Speculation, of course, but it could be very interesting.

Second off, the problem with the quote from the show that you are referencing is that it is including a three game sweep from a season with 91 wins but includes none of the 91 wins. Adding that on shows a clear agenda regarding the material that is being presented, and that isn't even including the idea that the blame is being placed entirely on Dusty Baker instead of on any of the players, other coaching staff, minor league staff, front office, or associated personnel who work directly with the Reds.

Just because Lance McAllister or Mo Egger or any of those other talking heads who work for "Homer" say it doesn't make it any better of a point than the material brought up by the banana phone callers who think that a trade of Cairo, Stubbs and LeCure for Justin Upton is fair.

traderumor
07-09-2012, 08:43 PM
Why are people so infatuated with Carlos Quentin? The guy is as big a boom/BUST player as I have ever seen, he makes Jay Bruce look like the model of day after day consistency. He is OPSing .665 with 2 HR and a .185 BA in the last 30 days. Yeah he will go off for a week again here shortly then back to totally worthless. If the Pirates go get him I will laugh at them. I thought the Reds should look into him two months ago. Now that Ludwick is giving them something, I don't want any part of Quentin.

Upton is an enigma. He has some lurking injury suspicion, and has a decent sized, but not unmanageable contract. I would love to see him patrolling left field, with Votto, Bruce, and Phillips, along with the three rookies, and the pitching staff, the core would be set. All that would be needed would be a legit leadoff bat for centerfield. It would be the most exciting thing that has happened to this team in a very long time.Signing Chapman? Latos trade? Votto extension? 2010 Divisional Title?

LoganBuck
07-09-2012, 10:48 PM
Signing Chapman? Latos trade? Votto extension? 2010 Divisional Title?

I meant all those things as an aggregate. A Big Red Machine II if you will.