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View Full Version : East coast media bias; should Todd Frazier be an all star instead of Bryce Harper?



mbgrayson
07-10-2012, 12:13 AM
At the All Star break:

Bryce Harper's 2012 MLB stats:
.282/.354/.472 for an OPS of .826, with 8 HRs, and 10 SBs. Bryce has 277 PAs is 63 games.

Todd Frazier' 2012 MLB stats:
.278/.345/.556 for an OPS of .901 with 9 HRs and 1 SB. Todd has 200 PAs in 60 games.

Yet not only is Harper an all star, Frazier was never even mentioned. Heck, Frazier hasn't convinced Dusty that he should be starting at third over Scott Rolen.

westofyou
07-10-2012, 12:15 AM
No

As far as bias... Really?

He is 19!!!

A wonderful age, and he is owning the game.

fearofpopvol1
07-10-2012, 12:22 AM
At the All Star break:

Bryce Harper's 2012 MLB stats:
.282/.354/.472 for an OPS of .826, with 8 HRs, and 10 SBs. Bryce has 277 PAs is 63 games.

Todd Frazier' 2012 MLB stats:
.278/.345/.556 for an OPS of .901 with 9 HRs and 1 SB. Todd has 200 PAs in 60 games.

Yet not only is Harper an all star, Frazier was never even mentioned. Heck, Frazier hasn't convinced Dusty that he should be starting at third over Scott Rolen.

Stuff like this used to irk me, but then you realize it's about money and marketing. Nobody has heard of Todd Frazier. Frazier wasn't drafted recently, he wasn't a #1 pick, and he's a lot older than Harper. A lot of people have heard of Harper. Plus, he had that hot streak early on that was setting the world on fire. Of course, he plays in DC too.

Brutus
07-10-2012, 12:26 AM
No

As far as bias... Really?

He is 19!!!

A wonderful age, and he is owning the game.

I sort of agree with you, but age should not be a consideration as to who the best players are. For his age, no question he's far ahead of most others. But he shouldn't be compared to players his own age, he should be compared to people in his league and at his position.

Right now, there are a lot of other players in the league having better seasons whether they're 19 or 35. I do think there is something to be said for the bias. After all, Mike Trout is only a year older and he's got 130 OPS points on Harper, but still most of the media attention goes to Bryce.

What Harper is doing at 19 is certainly impressive. Nonetheless, he's not the greatest thing since sliced bread (at least yet).

jojo
07-10-2012, 12:34 AM
Harper was voted in by the fans. Is the argument that fans would have voted in Frazier?

Spitball
07-10-2012, 12:42 AM
Thanks for pointing this out, mb. I have given up on worrying about fairness in all-star selections. It just really isn't about fairness.

mbgrayson
07-10-2012, 12:45 AM
Harper was voted in by the fans. Is the argument that fans would have voted in Frazier?
But LaGenius decided who the five to be voted on would be.

Don't get me wrong, I am intrigued by Harper. He may someday be a huge superstar. But I also think all star selection should be based on performance, and in Harper's case, this year, his selection was based on media hype.

powersackers
07-10-2012, 12:59 AM
Harper was voted in by the fans. Is the argument that fans would have voted in Frazier?

No he wasn't. Freese was voted in by the fans. Harper was named as a replacement.

OesterPoster
07-10-2012, 07:55 AM
Harper was voted in by the fans. Is the argument that fans would have voted in Frazier?

Harper finished third in the fan vote. That is how much fans care about him.

redsmetz
07-10-2012, 08:18 AM
Stuff like this used to irk me, but then you realize it's about money and marketing. Nobody has heard of Todd Frazier. Frazier wasn't drafted recently, he wasn't a #1 pick, and he's a lot older than Harper. A lot of people have heard of Harper. Plus, he had that hot streak early on that was setting the world on fire. Of course, he plays in DC too.

I think you're nailing on the head here, although I think WOY is adding an additional factor. But no one short of Reds fans is clamoring to see Todd Frazier, if they've even heard of him. In this case, I think, it has nothing to do with East Coast bias, IMO, although playing where there's a major market newspaper obviously doesn't hurt.

RANDY IN INDY
07-10-2012, 10:28 AM
No he wasn't. Freese was voted in by the fans. Harper was named as a replacement.

This is true. Glad you caught that.

Dan
07-10-2012, 10:41 AM
First off let me say that given the numbers straight up, Frazier wins over Harper. Hell, Cozart probably comes close too. However...

The game is the "All-Star Game". Stars aren't necessarily the best performing players at the time, although they often tend to be. For instance Frazier v. Harper.

However, Harper, with all the hype, and being just 19, IS becoming a star. Frazier may or may not become one, but right now he doesn't have the star power that Harper does.

Chip R
07-10-2012, 10:43 AM
I think you're nailing on the head here, although I think WOY is adding an additional factor. But no one short of Reds fans is clamoring to see Todd Frazier, if they've even heard of him. In this case, I think, it has nothing to do with East Coast bias, IMO, although playing where there's a major market newspaper obviously doesn't hurt.

I'm not even sure Reds fans are clamoring to see Frazier in an All-Star game. They couldn't even get Brandon Phillips voted in as a starter. I would bet that if you gave a ballot to Reds fans - online and at the stadium - over a homestand and gave them either Frazier or Harper to vote for to see in the All Star game, Harper would win. I don't even think it would be close. This not to discount anything Frazier has done but Harper's popularity is tough to beat.

On the other hand, the Nats have a reliever that throws as hard as Chapman does and he doesn't get anywhere near the publicity Chapman does. So maybe it evens out.

Sea Ray
07-10-2012, 10:47 AM
On the other hand, the Nats have a reliever that throws as hard as Chapman does and he doesn't get anywhere near the publicity Chapman does. So maybe it evens out.

Nats have a reliever that's hit 105 mph?

GoReds
07-10-2012, 10:55 AM
It would be nice if baseball could prop up more players from smaller markets. Not sure how much more the Yankees/Red Sox/Mets, et al, players can be built up more. Frazier has an interesting story to go along with his rookie season success, but I rarely hear anything about it.

_Sir_Charles_
07-10-2012, 11:06 AM
Nats have a reliever that's hit 105 mph?

No, but then again, the Reds don't either. When was the last time you saw Chapman hit anything over 102? He's pretty consistent at 98 to 101 IMO. And yeah, they've got a reliever that sits there too.

jojo
07-10-2012, 11:21 AM
Frazier really isn't even a good candidate to use in order to make a purist argument that selection to the all-star game should be based solely upon first half performance when there are guys like Prado, Hill, Heyward, Craig, Lucroy, Fowler, Colvin, Goldschmidt, and Kubel who don't have to dvr Fox tonight.

cumberlandreds
07-10-2012, 11:23 AM
Nats have a reliever that's hit 105 mph?

Rodriquez throws just over 100 when he can get the ball over the plate. But that's the problem. He can't always throw strikes.

I have not heard one person mention Frazier for the ASG. But that's not a surprise at all. Harper has had all the pub since before he ever played one inning in MLB. He has that pizzazz about him, plus he's pretty darn good. I just as soon see him in the ASG as anyone else.

Kc61
07-10-2012, 11:25 AM
A lot of these guys are picked because of marketing and fan interest in them.

You could argue that Chapman made it because of fan's interest in his high velocity fastball. He did have a bad stretch there and it wasn't a given that he would make the team.

dougdirt
07-10-2012, 11:52 AM
First off let me say that given the numbers straight up, Frazier wins over Harper. Hell, Cozart probably comes close too. However...

The game is the "All-Star Game". Stars aren't necessarily the best performing players at the time, although they often tend to be. For instance Frazier v. Harper.

However, Harper, with all the hype, and being just 19, IS becoming a star. Frazier may or may not become one, but right now he doesn't have the star power that Harper does.

Cozart doesn't come close to Harper in a numbers game. Cozart is barely OPS'ing .700.

mbgrayson, there aren't many guys picks for the game based on performance. All of the starters are picked based on popularity. Should it be that way? No, I don't think so. Especially now that it actually has meaning to it.

REDREAD
07-10-2012, 12:15 PM
I'm not a fan of the all star game, but baseball knows what it is doing here.

Harper is a young guy expected to be a star.
Frasier may not have a job in 2-3 years. He's done a great job this year, but it's iffy he can maintain this level of performance. In contrast, Harper has an almost unlimited ceiling.

MLB wants as many people to watch the AS Game as possible. Thus, it has to be a popularity contest. If they have a computer select the teams based on statisitical merit, ratings are going to take a hit.

westofyou
07-10-2012, 01:56 PM
An All-Star game or any exhibition is, in a sense, anathema to a sport, in this sense: that whereas sports beg and demand to be taken seriously on a certain level, All-Star games are essentially about showing off.

Bill James


Put it this way, Harper is better arm candy to baseball than Frazier is.

reds44
07-10-2012, 01:59 PM
Comparing Chapman to anybody is silly. Chapman has thrown a ball faster than (literally) anybody ever has, ever.

Not to mention the fact Rodriguez has 4.63 ERA in 20 innings this year.

RedlegJake
07-10-2012, 03:23 PM
If it was based on stats and not popularity you wouldn't have the annual superstar of former glory who is barely hitting his weight who always seems to get selected over a younger and MUCH better but less known and less popular player. If fans are going to make selections the game will always be partly a joke.

fearofpopvol1
07-10-2012, 03:31 PM
Actually, why not bring LeHair into the conversation? He was put on the team straight up and this in spite of the fact that Starlin Castro was put on the team (ie LeHair did not need to be given a slot to meet the All Star quota).

LeHair's WAR is 1.2 while Frazier's is 1.6. I mean, he has hit more home runs and his OPS is better, but his WAR number is lower than Frazier's or Harper's/

MikeS21
07-10-2012, 05:08 PM
Truth is, look around baseball. There are several pitchers who can crank out 100 mph fastballs, and it seems as if there are more every year. Chapman seems to be a novelty right now, but my guess is that within a year or two there will be another guy who will surpass Chapman's velocity record.

I'm not sure it was Fangraphs or one of the other sites, but the average major league fastball over the last few years has gone from about 89-90 up to about 91-92. Whether that trend continues upward or not, I don't know. But it does seem that flame throwers who hit 100 mph regularly are becoming more commonplace. I also wonder if this will lead to more elbow and shoulder blow-outs as well.

I suppose that's why I think the Reds need to concentrate on turning Chapman into a pitcher rather than marketing him as a circus act.

oregonred
07-10-2012, 05:24 PM
But can Harper hit off pitchers that "try to trick you"? Since Frazier apparently cannot.

Griffey012
07-10-2012, 06:18 PM
I dont really see anything to get upset about here. If the roles were reversed and we had Bryce Harper and instead a Washington Nationals part-time player who is having a strong season got picked as an All-Star replacement over our 19 year old phenom, we would be in an uproar.

Love what Frazier is doing this year, but Harper deserves the nod. He brings a level of excitement that not many players do.

MikeThierry
07-10-2012, 06:37 PM
At the All Star break:

Bryce Harper's 2012 MLB stats:
.282/.354/.472 for an OPS of .826, with 8 HRs, and 10 SBs. Bryce has 277 PAs is 63 games.

Todd Frazier' 2012 MLB stats:
.278/.345/.556 for an OPS of .901 with 9 HRs and 1 SB. Todd has 200 PAs in 60 games.

Yet not only is Harper an all star, Frazier was never even mentioned. Heck, Frazier hasn't convinced Dusty that he should be starting at third over Scott Rolen.


What about Allen Craig:

.313, .377, .614, OPS .991 with 13 HR, 44 RBI's, 1 SB. He has 199 PA's in 46 games played.

The point is that there are others much deserving than both Harper and Fraizer. There's always going to be snubs. I personally have no problem with Harper getting into the AS game. He's an exciting player to watch.

757690
07-10-2012, 06:41 PM
What about Allen Craig:

.313, .377, .614, OPS .991 with 13 HR, 44 RBI's, 1 SB. He has 199 PA's in 46 games played.

The point is that there are others much deserving than both Harper and Fraizer. There's always going to be snubs. I personally have no problem with Harper getting into the AS game. He's an exciting player to watch.

Basically this is why the Harper selection was wrong. it was done to increase ratings.

The fact that both Fraizer and Craig, two role players, have been more productive than Harper speaks volumes about how bad of a pick this is. There easily a dozen players far more worthy than Harper.

MikeThierry
07-10-2012, 06:47 PM
Basically this is why the Harper selection was wrong. it was done to increase ratings.

The fact that both Fraizer and Craig, two role players, have been more productive than Harper speaks volumes about how bad of a pick this is. There easily a dozen players far more worthy than Harper.

I wouldn't say Craig is a "role player" considering he was on DL for the first month of the season. He's been in the lineup ever since he's returned from the DL. He's seen far more consistent playing time than Fraizer has.

DGullett35
07-10-2012, 06:54 PM
Harper being chosen is all about ratings and money plain and simple. Ive come to just live with it.

757690
07-10-2012, 07:26 PM
I wouldn't say Craig is a "role player" considering he was on DL for the first month of the season. He's been in the lineup ever since he's returned from the DL. He's seen far more consistent playing time than Fraizer has.

Without injuries, Craig is on the bench. Role player.

westofyou
07-10-2012, 08:00 PM
Without injuries, Craig is on the bench. Role player.

They had him slotted as a starter in the off season, when he went down they bemoaned losing him every day

Big Klu
07-10-2012, 10:58 PM
Craig should be there instead of Harper (or Frazier). There aren't enough Cardinals on the All-Star team.

MikeThierry
07-11-2012, 02:36 AM
Without injuries, Craig is on the bench. Role player.

They went so far as to play Beltran in CF just to get his bat in the lineup. When Berkman gets back, I would still expect him to see about 4-5 games per week. He certainly would be a starter for most teams in LF.

MikeThierry
07-11-2012, 03:05 AM
Craig should be there instead of Harper (or Frazier). There aren't enough Cardinals on the All-Star team.

Should players be punished in the AS game based on where their position is in the standings? If you count Molina, the Cardinals had 6 players picked as All Stars yet their in 3rd place. You could argue against Lynn but most of those players had legit All Star seasons. I understand the argument about team position in the standings but to me, being named an All Star is an individual effort.

camisadelgolf
07-11-2012, 03:13 AM
Todd Frazier was named to Baseball America's all-rookie team as the designated hitter. That's probably enough consolation.

marcshoe
07-11-2012, 03:21 AM
I don't have a huge problem with Harper in the game.I like seeing a mix of guys having career years and guys who have played at a high level consistently. I was happy to see Chipper out there. To me, he was a bigger story than Bryce Harper. I would have also liked to have seen BP, since his D brings his credentials up a notch, but if having Chipper out there is the alternative, I'm fine with it.

MikeThierry
07-11-2012, 03:26 AM
I know Phillips is a fan favorite in Cincy but I'm not seeing this All Star year that he's having like most Reds fans are seeing. Sure he is playing excellent defense but he's having a below average offensive year. His OPS+ of 97 is nothing to write home about. Aaron Hill was far more deserving in my opinion. Only Robinson Cano has a better WAR than him this year and Hill is also an above average defender. I voted for Phillips in the past but I cannot get on board with him being an AS this year.

marcshoe
07-11-2012, 04:02 AM
Hill's having a standout season and should have been on the team. Altuve shouldn't have, but Houston had to have a Rep. Starling Castro was needed as a second ss. Brian Lahair had a 1.3 war, iirc. Fangraphs has Hill with the best WAR among NL second baseman, followed by Neal Walker (with a very high babip) then BP and Uggla tied at 2.2. These are some tough choices. Watching BP's D every day puts him over the top to me.

marcshoe
07-11-2012, 04:02 AM
Double post.

757690
07-11-2012, 04:08 AM
They went so far as to play Beltran in CF just to get his bat in the lineup. When Berkman gets back, I would still expect him to see about 4-5 games per week. He certainly would be a starter for most teams in LF.

They moved Beltran to CF because Jay was injured. You know thet.

If the Cardinals are all healthy, Craig is their fourth outfielder. Role Player. Nothing wrong with that, he's a very valuable player and having a great year... As a role player.

757690
07-11-2012, 04:16 AM
Should players be punished in the AS game based on where their position is in the standings? If you count Molina, the Cardinals had 6 players picked as All Stars yet their in 3rd place. You could argue against Lynn but most of those players had legit All Star seasons. I understand the argument about team position in the standings but to me, being named an All Star is an individual effort.

Beltran, Holliday, Molina deserved to go. Furcal, Lynn and Freese, not so much. At least 4 better options at each position than those last three.

marcshoe
07-11-2012, 04:18 AM
fwiw, I think BP and Hill were also more deserving than Jay Bruce.

757690
07-11-2012, 04:18 AM
I know Phillips is a fan favorite in Cincy but I'm not seeing this All Star year that he's having like most Reds fans are seeing. Sure he is playing excellent defense but he's having a below average offensive year. His OPS+ of 97 is nothing to write home about. Aaron Hill was far more deserving in my opinion. Only Robinson Cano has a better WAR than him this year and Hill is also an above average defender. I voted for Phillips in the past but I cannot get on board with him being an AS this year.

Agree with you on this one. Phillips has been very good, but not a clear cut All-Star.

powersackers
07-11-2012, 04:29 AM
When the play by play of Harper's first big league homer included the words "his first of hundreds" I knew the hype would be out of this world. The hype started when he was in HS and it won't stop until he stops hitting. I enjoyed him being on the team more than any name mentioned here. The stats don't lie. He was far less deserving based on them. But I would tell the snubs and there fans to "hang with em" he's the golden boy and you/yours are not.

mth123
07-11-2012, 07:34 AM
Harper being chosen is all about ratings and money plain and simple. Ive come to just live with it.

Isn't that the entire purpose of the All Star game and its related festivities? It seems that picking Harper fits that to a tee. IMO, MLB missed the boat by not including Harper in the HR Derby.

I think people criticizing this move are placing a meaning on the All Star game that just does not exist.

It's the All Star game not the All Stat game.

membengal
07-11-2012, 07:41 AM
Plus, Frazier isn't even a starter on his own team.

mbgrayson
07-11-2012, 11:29 AM
Plus, Frazier isn't even a starter on his own team.

From the very first post of this thread:

Heck, Frazier hasn't convinced Dusty that he should be starting at third over Scott Rolen.

I didn't use Frazier to compare with Harper so much because I really thought that Todd should be an all star, as to make the point that Harper hadn't really earned his slot. My secondary point was a pitch that Frazier should be given the starting third base job over Rolen.

RedsManRick
07-11-2012, 11:44 AM
The "Star" in All-Star is purposeful. Harper is a star. Frazier, decidedly, is not.

I read a recent blog post by Joe Sheehan about the ASG. He proposed that it is used to kick off the season rather than half way through. I love that idea. You'd get rid of all these half season wonders and remove rookies from the conversation entirely.

Chip R
07-11-2012, 11:59 AM
Craig should be there instead of Harper (or Frazier). There aren't enough Cardinals on the All-Star team.

:lol:

Redsfan320
07-11-2012, 12:09 PM
Craig should be there instead of Harper (or Frazier). There aren't enough Cardinals on the All-Star team.


Its also telling, though expected from TLR, that when Stanton was hurt, he picked Harper (another OF), leaving the Marlins with no players in the ASG. However, when Molina was hurt, rather than picking up another catcher, he grabbed another Cardinal (Holliday) leaving the NL team with only two catchers. Now whether he should have picked Harper or a different OF (heck, I wouldn't have minded Holliday as much then) is not my point.

320

MikeThierry
07-11-2012, 02:36 PM
Beltran, Holliday, Molina deserved to go. Furcal, Lynn and Freese, not so much. At least 4 better options at each position than those last three.

Who at 3B would you have taken over Freese? This is another position where the NL is weak. You have David Wright and everyone else. If you look at Freese's production, his selection wasn't that crazy. There's only 1 other third baseman that has started the entire season in the NL that has a better BA and only two other 3B that have more RBI's and a better OBP.

With Tulo gone, Furcal wasn't that crazy of a choice either. There's only two other SS with more RBI's than him (remember he's a leadoff hitter) and only one other SS with a better OBP than him this year at SS in the NL. If Tulo was playing everyday, my opinion would be different but there has not been a clear dominant player at SS this year.

I can agree with you about Lynn though. As good as he has been replacing Carpenter, he probably shouldn't have been an all star.

MikeThierry
07-11-2012, 02:39 PM
They moved Beltran to CF because Jay was injured. You know thet.

If the Cardinals are all healthy, Craig is their fourth outfielder. Role Player. Nothing wrong with that, he's a very valuable player and having a great year... As a role player.

So you're saying that Craig wouldn't be a perfect fit for the Reds, in that ball park? I have a feeling that many would disagree with you on that here. He would be starting for the majority of teams in baseball, whether it be RF or LF.

Yes, Jay was injured but Matheny and the Cardinals organization has been reluctant to put Beltran in CF because of his knees. I also don't consider a player who plays 4-6 games a week as a role player. Even when Berkman comes back, Craig will still see a lot of time in the lineup.

powersackers
07-12-2012, 02:57 AM
The "Star" in All-Star is purposeful. Harper is a star. Frazier, decidedly, is not.

I read a recent blog post by Joe Sheehan about the ASG. He proposed that it is used to kick off the season rather than half way through. I love that idea. You'd get rid of all these half season wonders and remove rookies from the conversation entirely.

"The early Spring Classic"? No thanks Joe

reds44
07-12-2012, 03:45 AM
Hey look a thread turned into talking about the Cardinals. This never happens.

mbgrayson
07-15-2012, 09:56 AM
After Saturday's game against the Cards, a little of the hype comes Frazier's way. From Ken Rosenthal at Fox Sports (http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/scott-rolen-cincinnati-reds-todd-frazier-reduced-playing-team-professional-helps-rookie-071512):

Rolen is 37 now. He recently missed five weeks with a strained left shoulder. And his replacement, rookie Todd Frazier, is producing numbers even better than the more-celebrated Bryce Harper’s.

mbgrayson
07-15-2012, 09:56 AM
After Saturday's game against the Cards, a little of the hype comes Frazier's way. From Ken Rosenthal at Fox Sports (http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/scott-rolen-cincinnati-reds-todd-frazier-reduced-playing-team-professional-helps-rookie-071512):

Rolen is 37 now. He recently missed five weeks with a strained left shoulder. And his replacement, rookie Todd Frazier, is producing numbers even better than the more-celebrated Bryce Harper’s.

cincrazy
07-15-2012, 10:34 AM
I know Phillips is a fan favorite in Cincy but I'm not seeing this All Star year that he's having like most Reds fans are seeing. Sure he is playing excellent defense but he's having a below average offensive year. His OPS+ of 97 is nothing to write home about. Aaron Hill was far more deserving in my opinion. Only Robinson Cano has a better WAR than him this year and Hill is also an above average defender. I voted for Phillips in the past but I cannot get on board with him being an AS this year.

We can agree on Hill. But I think Phillips should've made the team over Uggla. Alas, that vote belonged to the fans. Ugh.

Mario-Rijo
07-15-2012, 12:34 PM
Who at 3B would you have taken over Freese? This is another position where the NL is weak. You have David Wright and everyone else. If you look at Freese's production, his selection wasn't that crazy. There's only 1 other third baseman that has started the entire season in the NL that has a better BA and only two other 3B that have more RBI's and a better OBP.

With Tulo gone, Furcal wasn't that crazy of a choice either. There's only two other SS with more RBI's than him (remember he's a leadoff hitter) and only one other SS with a better OBP than him this year at SS in the NL. If Tulo was playing everyday, my opinion would be different but there has not been a clear dominant player at SS this year.

I can agree with you about Lynn though. As good as he has been replacing Carpenter, he probably shouldn't have been an all star.

You are arguing different things for & against different people. If you are gonna use OPS for Phillips then use OPS for all. Wright, Sandoval's & Chippers was easily better than Freese at the break. J-Roll, Reyes & Willie Bloomquist all had better OPS than Furcal at SS. Cozart wasn't far off Furcals pace.