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The Operator
07-10-2012, 12:07 AM
Please continue the Penn State discussion (http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=92696) here.

Thanks!

Chip R
07-10-2012, 09:32 AM
Donations are surprisingly up at Penn State.

http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/id/8144317/penn-state-nittany-lions-say-donations-second-highest-school-history

KoryMac5
07-10-2012, 08:32 PM
Not really a surprise as Penn State has been on a 24/7 cycle since the awful news broke about the Sandusky scandal. People come to the defense of their university by opening up there wallets to try and make a difference. Plus there might be some guilt tied into those donations as well.

dougdirt
07-10-2012, 10:37 PM
Not just that, for a long time there, the PSU alumni were all CERTAIN that Joe had no knowledge of what was going on.

KoryMac5
07-11-2012, 10:34 AM
Penn State report to be released Thursday. I fully expect Paterno to be thrown under the bus and then the bus to be backed up over him several times. Paterno is dead, Penn State will offer his legend up in sacrifice.

reds44
07-11-2012, 02:31 PM
Or maybe, you know, he just was a really bad guy.

KoryMac5
07-11-2012, 03:08 PM
Dead men don't talk so I am sure we will never know, which is what makes him the perfect scapegoat.

Razor Shines
07-11-2012, 04:36 PM
Dead men don't talk so I am sure we will never know, which is what makes him the perfect scapegoat.

Sometimes you kind of know.


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BuckeyeRed27
07-11-2012, 06:03 PM
Dead men don't talk so I am sure we will never know, which is what makes him the perfect scapegoat.

I'm not sure scapegoat is the right term. Just based on what has come out so far the other three guys are probably going to jail. Paterno could and probably will come out looking much worse than he already does, but if that is based on a 3rd party investigation I'm not sure how that scapegoats him.

dougdirt
07-11-2012, 06:08 PM
Dead men don't talk so I am sure we will never know, which is what makes him the perfect scapegoat.

Well, if the CNN report on the emails is true, he isn't going to be a scapegoat.

KoryMac5
07-11-2012, 08:03 PM
Lets remember the investigation is being paid for by the Board of Trustees. The same Board of Trustees who fired Paterno without even questioning him about his involvement in this matter. The same board who most likely leaked the emails. Look I have no doubt that Paterno has to shoulder some blame here but ultimately what I am saying is what better way for PSU to get out from under this weight than to blame Paterno and his henchmen for all that went wrong.

KoryMac5
07-11-2012, 08:05 PM
Well, if the CNN report on the emails is true, he isn't going to be a scapegoat.

Yes the CNN emails, in which we will let you see the emails not all of them just the ones that make Paterno and the gang look really bad. It sets up so well for the Board of Trustees.

ervinsm84
07-12-2012, 12:36 AM
Short of turning up a memo, written in his (Paterno's) handwriting on personalized letterhead and stamped by a notary public, saying, "Hey, Graham and Tim, I'm OK with Jerry raping little boys as long as it doesn't make the press," the Freeh report will likely leave a lot of Penn State minds unchanged.


Hell, that probably isn't enough because it wouldn't have specified which Graham, Tim, and Jerry. Those are just first names ya know.



The rest of us, however know better.

dougdirt
07-12-2012, 01:51 AM
Yes the CNN emails, in which we will let you see the emails not all of them just the ones that make Paterno and the gang look really bad. It sets up so well for the Board of Trustees.

So emails that actually show they knew about it, but it didn't go reported.... I don't need to see any other emails about it. None. There are no other possible emails that could make them look good.

hebroncougar
07-12-2012, 07:45 AM
Short of turning up a memo, written in his (Paterno's) handwriting on personalized letterhead and stamped by a notary public, saying, "Hey, Graham and Tim, I'm OK with Jerry raping little boys as long as it doesn't make the press," the Freeh report will likely leave a lot of Penn State minds unchanged.


Hell, that probably isn't enough because it wouldn't have specified which Graham, Tim, and Jerry. Those are just first names ya know.



The rest of us, however know better.

Kind of like the emails that already showed up?

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Dom Heffner
07-12-2012, 09:37 AM
Sea Ray spot on with another one.

http://openchannel.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/07/12/12699159-penn-state-report-says-president-paterno-concealed-facts?lite

cincrazy
07-12-2012, 09:55 AM
Paterno was clearly more interested in preserving his legacy than helping children. And that's disturbing, to say the least.

Chip R
07-12-2012, 10:15 AM
Didn't we know this all along, though? The three administrators and Paterno knew and covered it up because of potential (and actual) bad publicity.

blumj
07-12-2012, 10:27 AM
Yes, we knew this all along, those who don't want to see things badly enough find ways to keep themselves in the dark.

Sea Ray
07-12-2012, 10:33 AM
Sea Ray spot on with another one.

http://openchannel.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/07/12/12699159-penn-state-report-says-president-paterno-concealed-facts?lite

It gets back to evidence Dom. If new facts come to the table that show that Paterno knew that this guy was a pedophile then I'll agree with you that he deserves whatever gets thrown at him, but unlike you I need those facts and we sure didn't have them last fall

Stray
07-12-2012, 11:03 AM
From the bits and pieces I've read in the Freeh report it's really really bad. I can't begin to imagine how many Clery Act violations the school will face, and what the possible punishments from that will be.

Like looking the other way wasn't bad enough, they even covered it up. Disgusting.

MWM
07-12-2012, 12:19 PM
Yeah, those thinking it will all wind up falling on the shoulders of Paterno as a "scapegoat" are way off, IMO. That implies others won't carry their fair share of the responsibility. This will forever paint JoePa and a really bad guy, but that will not have any impact on the others who knew and covered up. There's more than enough scorn to go around to think because JoePa gets painted a certain way, then others somehow will be let off the hook. This report is going to be VERY bad for a lot of people.

ervinsm84
07-12-2012, 12:35 PM
Spanier never declared Sandusky a “persona non grata” on Penn State campuses, as he did toward a sports agent who, before the 1997 Citrus Bowl, bought $400 worth of clothing for a Penn State football player. Spanier was very aggressive in that case170 and banned the agent from campus. Spanier said the agent “fooled around with the integrity of the university, and I wonʹt stand for that.” 171 The University conducted its own investigation, and provided the results to law enforcement.172 In an email dated May 13, 1998, Spanier said, “The idea is to keep [the sports agent] off campus permanently, to keep him away from current athletes, and to keep him away from current graduates or students whose eligibility has recently expired.”

Potential NCAA violation? Permaban

Potential felonies being committed? Shhhhhhhhhh

https://p.twimg.com/AxmzpAQCEAAsIix.jpg


The more I read the worse it gets.


Hmm...looks like CNN report was right. Who ever would've guessed it


Just copy this over and over for the cultists


"Based on the evidence, the only known, intervening factor between the decision made on February 25, 2001 by Messrs. Spanier, Curley and Schulz to report the incident to the Department of Public Welfare, and then agreeing not to do so on February 27th, was Mr. Paterno’s February 26th conversation with Mr. Curley."

schmidty622
07-12-2012, 01:02 PM
It gets back to evidence Dom. If new facts come to the table that show that Paterno knew that this guy was a pedophile then I'll agree with you that he deserves whatever gets thrown at him, but unlike you I need those facts and we sure didn't have them last fall

Huh? The report pretty clearly details what Paterno and the three others knew, both in 1998 and in 2001. Their failure to act on that information should bring all three surviving men and Paterno's estate under both criminal and civil scrutiny. Morally, it's pretty open and shut case.

Sea Ray
07-12-2012, 01:47 PM
Huh? The report pretty clearly details what Paterno and the three others knew, both in 1998 and in 2001. Their failure to act on that information should bring all three surviving men and Paterno's estate under both criminal and civil scrutiny. Morally, it's pretty open and shut case.

I tend to agree but we didn't have this information in November. I'd like to hear Paterno's take on it but that ain't happenin'. Seems to me that Paterno was in on the decision not to report it and that's a big screw up on his part. He's not going to have to serve the sentences of his superiors though. They haven't even begun to pay for their part in this. This nightmare is just beginning for them

Scrap Irony
07-12-2012, 04:21 PM
Paterno was clearly more interested in preserving his legacy than helping children. And that's disturbing, to say the least.

He deserves every bit of scorn that can be levied his way.

So, too, do the rest of them.

Paterno was a horrid little man with no sense of decency or honor, as evidence by his conversations with other Penn State officials and his complicit behavior to cover up Sandusky's crimes.

Obviously, Sandusky is worse, as he committed the crimes. But Paterno is close.

Those that have insisted, in the past, that he's some bastion of integrity, have some serious egg on their faces.

Penn State should also receive the death penalty, IMO. Football coaches covering up crimes this serous with no thought given to anything other than PR?

The NCAA is there to protect the integrity of their fellow institutions. This is the most heinous integrity issue the sports world has perhaps ever seen.

improbus
07-12-2012, 05:09 PM
This should be a wake up call for investing so much adoration and power in the hands of a coach. College coaches are often the most powerful individual on a campus (with Joe probably being the biggest example of that in recent memory).

I remember when the story first broke, watching ESPN break down the adoration of Joe and how that may have blinded the people working around him as well as the Joe himself. They were televising the Penn State fans protesting in support of Joe. They then seemlessly transitioned into an show starring Nick Saban that followed him as he coached, helped the community (after the Tuscaloosa hurricane), and then did an interview in his opulent office where he played the all knowing father figure role. It was the height of irony and cognitive dissonance.

ervinsm84
07-12-2012, 06:23 PM
http://i.imgur.com/qEl2E.jpg

Ohayou
07-12-2012, 06:27 PM
Paterno's legacy might look different to a lot of people now, but it doesn't to the students. He's still a hero in their eyes. They would probably start a riot if his statue was torn down. There's a cardboard cutout of that little weasel in every window on that campus.

That kind of blind idolatry is unfathomable to me.

The Operator
07-12-2012, 06:27 PM
I remember when the story first broke, watching ESPN break down the adoration of Joe and how that may have blinded the people working around him as well as the Joe himself. They were televising the Penn State fans protesting in support of Joe. They then seemlessly transitioned into an show starring Nick Saban that followed him as he coached, helped the community (after the Tuscaloosa hurricane), and then did an interview in his opulent office where he played the all knowing father figure role. It was the height of irony and cognitive dissonance.Awesome point. I remember watching the office interview and thinking "I wonder if anyone at ESPN gets the irony in all this?"

KronoRed
07-12-2012, 09:58 PM
I don't understand why some think the football program alone deserves punishment, seems top to bottom PSU is in the wrong.

The big 10+2 should give them the boot.

Dom Heffner
07-12-2012, 11:09 PM
It gets back to evidence Dom. If new facts come to the table that show that Paterno knew that this guy was a pedophile then I'll agree with you that he deserves whatever gets thrown at him, but unlike you I need those facts and we sure didn't have them last fall

If new facts come to the table? Can you read?

Caveat Emperor
07-12-2012, 11:26 PM
I don't understand why some think the football program alone deserves punishment, seems top to bottom PSU is in the wrong.

The big 10+2 should give them the boot.

The University prioritized maintaining the Joe Paterno legacy -- the "legendary" coach that raised money from boosters and brought home prized recruits to play in front of the sold-out stadiums -- over protecting innocent children, following the law, and doing the right thing.

The Big 10+2 should absolutely give them the boot and the NCAA should absolutely give the football program the death penalty.

As far as I'm concerned, every dime that program has taken in since the initial cover-up happened is blood money -- earned by men who were living a lie and allowing others to be irreparably harmed to protect that lie.

dougdirt
07-12-2012, 11:28 PM
If new facts come to the table? Can you read?

Can you read? He was saying that last fall, when it broke, that he needed to know those facts and that they weren't there at the time.

Scrap Irony
07-13-2012, 12:27 AM
Hasn't Sandusky already been convicted? If so, can't we drop the "alleged"?

Redsfaithful
07-13-2012, 01:27 AM
Can you read? He was saying that last fall, when it broke, that he needed to know those facts and that they weren't there at the time.

It's hard to parse what he's saying because the first half of the sentence and the second don't line up.

If I'd defended Paterno through this I'd probably just keep quiet at this point, honestly.

Sea Ray
07-13-2012, 08:16 AM
If new facts come to the table? Can you read?

Sure. I go where the facts lead me. I gave Paterno the benefit of the doubt and took him at his word. I think he deserved that. Now there's very little doubt left to give him the benefit of. The facts sure seem to point to two troubling things where Paterno's concerned:

1) He knew about the 1998 incident despite his comments to the contrary

2) It seems as though he was in on the decision not to report the McQueary incident

We didn't know these facts in November

I also gave Pete Rose the benefit of the doubt in betting on baseball until he accepted Bart's lifetime ban. At that point I had the evidence I needed to conclude that he bet on baseball

Sea Ray
07-13-2012, 08:20 AM
It's hard to parse what he's saying because the first half of the sentence and the second don't line up.

If I'd defended Paterno through this I'd probably just keep quiet at this point, honestly.

No, Doug gets it. I base my opinion on facts and the facts now sure seem to point to Paterno's "guilt" in all of this. If more facts come to light we need to take those into consideration and that's exactly what happened here

Sea Ray
07-13-2012, 08:22 AM
The University prioritized maintaining the Joe Paterno legacy -- the "legendary" coach that raised money from boosters and brought home prized recruits to play in front of the sold-out stadiums -- over protecting innocent children, following the law, and doing the right thing.

The Big 10+2 should absolutely give them the boot and the NCAA should absolutely give the football program the death penalty.

As far as I'm concerned, every dime that program has taken in since the initial cover-up happened is blood money -- earned by men who were living a lie and allowing others to be irreparably harmed to protect that lie.

There's also the competitive aspect. My guess is PSU will fall below Norhwestern and will become the weak sister in the Big Ten. Does the Big Ten really want another Temple on their schedule?

cumberlandreds
07-13-2012, 08:40 AM
There's no defending Paterno and Penn State. It's quite obvious they knew what was going and had conspired to coverup what was happening. I just can't fathom how anyone can protect someone like Sandusky knowing what he had done and was still doing until the day he was arrested. It just boggles the mind.
Penn State University may have trouble staying afloat not to mention the football program. You know they are going to have pay millions in damages to the victims and come under constant scrutiny for any funds the Feds may issue them. I would assume by all these crimes that they may not qualify for at least some Federal funding.
I am also coming to the conclusion that the football program should be shut down for a period of time. At least one year, probably more. It was because the football program had gotten so big and powerful that all this was allowed to occur. No program,whether it's sports or academics, should be so powerful that it alone rules the University.
I thought I had become to old to be shocked ny anything that happens nowdays. But with all the unfolding of the facts to this case I have been just utterly shocked by how callous the powers in charge of Penn State acted. This has to be the biggest sports related scandal in history. There's not much that could top this.

Sea Ray
07-13-2012, 09:19 AM
There's no defending Paterno and Penn State. It's quite obvious they knew what was going and had conspired to coverup what was happening. I just can't fathom how anyone can protect someone like Sandusky knowing what he had done and was still doing until the day he was arrested. It just boggles the mind.
Penn State University may have trouble staying afloat not to mention the football program. You know they are going to have pay millions in damages to the victims and come under constant scrutiny for any funds the Feds may issue them. I would assume by all these crimes that they may not qualify for at least some Federal funding.
I am also coming to the conclusion that the football program should be shut down for a period of time. At least one year, probably more. It was because the football program had gotten so big and powerful that all this was allowed to occur. No program,whether it's sports or academics, should be so powerful that it alone rules the University.
I thought I had become to old to be shocked ny anything that happens nowdays. But with all the unfolding of the facts to this case I have been just utterly shocked by how callous the powers in charge of Penn State acted. This has to be the biggest sports related scandal in history. There's not much that could top this.

The only person I saw yesterday that defended him was his son, Jay and that doesn't boggle the mind

cumberlandreds
07-13-2012, 09:22 AM
The only person I saw yesterday that defended him was his son, Jay and that doesn't boggle the mind

I saw that. The family is the only one defending him and I can understand that. But they just need to keep quiet.
What I meant b y mind boggling is how someone like Paterno and the rest of those in power could keep trying to protect Sandusky knowing what he had done and was continuing to do.

WMR
07-13-2012, 10:28 AM
I bet if it was one of his beloved grandkids getting raped by that monster he would have handled things a wee bit differently.

dougdirt
07-13-2012, 12:50 PM
The only person I saw yesterday that defended him was his son, Jay and that doesn't boggle the mind

You must have missed where Matt Millen was sticking up for him. I won't go as far as saying defending him, but saying that there is more to Joe Paterno than this incident.

WMR
07-13-2012, 12:55 PM
You must have missed where Matt Millen was sticking up for him. I won't go as far as saying defending him, but saying that there is more to Joe Paterno than this incident.

Millen honestly makes me sick with his p ussyfooting around this subject. (P ussyfooting is a word in the dictionary, word filter needs to be adjusted, lol)

If you really want to make yourself feel nauseous, check out the Penn State Rivals or Scout board.

dougdirt
07-13-2012, 01:36 PM
If you really want to make yourself feel nauseous, check out the Penn State Rivals or Scout board.

I really don't want to do that, but I can unfortunately imagine what it looks like.

Razor Shines
07-13-2012, 02:13 PM
Rome pointed out how ironic it is that the school sent out security to protect the statue but they didn't lift a finger for those kids.


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The Operator
07-13-2012, 03:05 PM
Rome pointed out how ironic it is that the school sent out security to protect the statue but they didn't lift a finger for those kids.


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkPriorities...

Sea Ray
07-13-2012, 04:37 PM
You must have missed where Matt Millen was sticking up for him. I won't go as far as saying defending him, but saying that there is more to Joe Paterno than this incident.

I saw that. I'm no Matt Millen fan but I don't think he said anything outrageous. In fact as usual he pretty much didn't say anything. Just a bunch of mumbo jumbo. Nothing unfair about saying there's more to Paterno than this big mistake but we already knew that

BuckeyeRed27
07-13-2012, 05:02 PM
I saw that. I'm no Matt Millen fan but I don't think he said anything outrageous. In fact as usual he pretty much didn't say anything. Just a bunch of mumbo jumbo. Nothing unfair about saying there's more to Paterno than this big mistake but we already knew that

I only saw Millen for a minute or two yesterday and I just felt bad for him. ESPN basically set him up to fail. He is just way to close to that situation to provide any sort of commentary.

fearofpopvol1
07-14-2012, 01:15 AM
I'd like to see the football program completely suspended for 4 years. I think the players already committed should be given the chance to transfer.

Hit 'em where it hurts. The football program brings massive dollars to the school and they should sting them there.

All individuals involved who knew about it should be charged to the fullest extent of the law.

Sea Ray
07-14-2012, 08:18 AM
I'd like to see the football program completely suspended for 4 years. I think the players already committed should be given the chance to transfer.

Hit 'em where it hurts. The football program brings massive dollars to the school and they should sting them there.

All individuals involved who knew about it should be charged to the fullest extent of the law.

I understand where you're coming from but such a penalty would be awfully harsh and hit a lot of innocent parties

First of all it's likely that many of the 80 or so football players on scholarship will not be able to get scholarships from other schools. There's also the many folks who make money off the football team from the vendors to the sportsbar workers around town. These are hard working folks who need the money.

As it is the guilty parties will be punished harshly. You know Paterno's fate. The other three men in power will be subject to civil and possibly even crominal charges and the school will have to pay out handsomely to each and every victim that comes out.

Assembly Hall
07-14-2012, 08:42 AM
I understand where you're coming from but such a penalty would be awfully harsh and hit a lot of innocent parties

First of all it's likely that many of the 80 or so football players on scholarship will not be able to get scholarships from other schools. There's also the many folks who make money off the football team from the vendors to the sportsbar workers around town. These are hard working folks who need the money.

As it is the guilty parties will be punished harshly. You know Paterno's fate. The other three men in power will be subject to civil and possibly even crominal charges and the school will have to pay out handsomely to each and every victim that comes out.

Some very valid points.

I have been around long enough to see a lot of "scandals". The thing about what I have seen in the past is that it always seemed to involve cash and perks for players, point shaving, athletic boosters spreading money, and recruiting violations. The Penn State situation is uncharted waters for the NCAA. There was no wrong doing actually concerning the football program. A coach of the football program using an on campus organization took advantage of young boys over a period of extended years. And it appears that people with in the football infra structure after being aware of it chose to cover it up. The fact of the matter is there was no rules infractions by the football program, however numerous civil laws were broken.

I dont know what the answer is to as far as what the NCAA can do about it. I also dont think that a NCAA "death penalty" is warranted here as per how the rules are set up. However what happened there absolutely disgusts me.
I am an IU fan, and as such am a fan of the Big Ten. I think the other 11 schools should really consider kicking the Lions out of the conference. We dont need the NCAA to do that.......take a vote and boot them out.

What would Penn State do if the Big Ten kicked them out?

The Operator
07-14-2012, 09:04 AM
I understand where you're coming from but such a penalty would be awfully harsh and hit a lot of innocent parties

First of all it's likely that many of the 80 or so football players on scholarship will not be able to get scholarships from other schools. There's also the many folks who make money off the football team from the vendors to the sportsbar workers around town. These are hard working folks who need the money.

As it is the guilty parties will be punished harshly. You know Paterno's fate. The other three men in power will be subject to civil and possibly even crominal charges and the school will have to pay out handsomely to each and every victim that comes out.All of the guilty parties in the OSU gold pants / tattoo scandal are long gone. Yet the program is paying the price this year by being ineligible to play in a bowl game and losing several scholarships if I remember correctly.

Programs paying the price for indiscretions of past players or coaches happens all the time.

And in this case, it needs to happen big time at Penn State. That program became so big and powerful that something like this could happen just to protect its image. Even with JoePa and the idiots who were running the University gone, the program still needs to be put down for a while just to get rid of that aura of being able to do whatever they want, whenever they want, to whoever they want.

paintmered
07-14-2012, 09:28 AM
I understand where you're coming from but such a penalty would be awfully harsh and hit a lot of innocent parties

First of all it's likely that many of the 80 or so football players on scholarship will not be able to get scholarships from other schools. There's also the many folks who make money off the football team from the vendors to the sportsbar workers around town. These are hard working folks who need the money.

It would indeed be harsh. And the many folks around State College who own restaurants, hotels and bars would bear much of the negative impact of no football. Consider how many of those businesses exist because of Penn State football and the 100,000 visitors that it brings to the area eight times each year. Penn State football became too big to fail not only the university but also for the surrounding community. I have to think that that fear of essentially killing off a sizable chunk of the local economy and impact all those innocent people played a part in the decision to not pursue the Sandusky allegations way back when.

All this being said, I don't know if it's appropriate for the NCAA to impose the death penalty. I do think it would be appropriate for Penn State to voluntarily suspend the program for at least a season and allow all players to transfer without losing a year of eligibility. Too many people are considering the impact to the thousands who make their living in part to Penn State football and forget that it may have been all those people who created and fed the culture that allowed the atrocities to go unreported and unpursued. To take into consideration the local industry supported by Penn State football, and to lessen their punishment as a result is a continuation of the culture that allowed the problem to continue for as long as it has.

The Operator
07-14-2012, 09:40 AM
It would indeed be harsh. And the many folks around State College who own restaurants, hotels and bars would bear much of the negative impact of no football. Consider how many of those businesses exist because of Penn State football and the 100,000 visitors that it brings to the area eight times each year. Penn State football became too big to fail not only the university but also for the surrounding community. I have to think that that fear of essentially killing off a sizable chunk of the local economy and impact all those innocent people played a part in the decision to not pursue the Sandusky allegations way back when.

All this being said, I don't know if it's appropriate for the NCAA to impose the death penalty. I do think it would be appropriate for Penn State to voluntarily suspend the program for at least a season and allow all players to transfer without losing a year of eligibility. Too many people are considering the impact to the thousands who make their living in part to Penn State football and forget that it may have been all those people who created and fed the culture that allowed the atrocities to go unreported and unpursued. To take into consideration the local industry supported by Penn State football, and to lessen their punishment as a result is a continuation of the culture that allowed the problem to continue for as long as it has.
Best. Post. Ever.

I wish I had written that.

Sea Ray
07-14-2012, 09:54 AM
All of the guilty parties in the OSU gold pants / tattoo scandal are long gone. Yet the program is paying the price this year by being ineligible to play in a bowl game and losing several scholarships if I remember correctly.

Programs paying the price for indiscretions of past players or coaches happens all the time.

And in this case, it needs to happen big time at Penn State. That program became so big and powerful that something like this could happen just to protect its image. Even with JoePa and the idiots who were running the University gone, the program still needs to be put down for a while just to get rid of that aura of being able to do whatever they want, whenever they want, to whoever they want.

The vendors still have jobs at OSU. If we're discussing a Bowl ban for PSU that's another discussion altogether.

dougdirt
07-14-2012, 09:55 AM
When the government stops giving the school money, the school is going down anyways. Just a matter of time.

Sea Ray
07-14-2012, 10:01 AM
It would indeed be harsh. And the many folks around State College who own restaurants, hotels and bars would bear much of the negative impact of no football. Consider how many of those businesses exist because of Penn State football and the 100,000 visitors that it brings to the area eight times each year. Penn State football became too big to fail not only the university but also for the surrounding community. I have to think that that fear of essentially killing off a sizable chunk of the local economy and impact all those innocent people played a part in the decision to not pursue the Sandusky allegations way back when.



That's a huge stretch. Why should the folks in Happy Valley be put out of work when those sorts of busineeses continue in every other big college football town? The guy selling programs at PSU did nothing wrong and shouldn't lose his job over this.

Incidently I reject the common notion that PSU covered this up because the program was too big to fail. If they'd have reported the Sandusky incident(s) to authorities, the program would have had a little bit of criticism for hiring a child molester (assuming he was convicted) but it would have continued and Paterno would have kept his job. Every SAT still would have been sold out in Happy Valley. The program would have suffered very little

paintmered
07-14-2012, 10:39 AM
You think it's a stretch to suggest that the Penn State administration and athletic department didn't want to disrupt the economic machine that is (or at least was) Penn State football? Reporting child rape inside the program even then would have subjected the program to NCAA and Title IX investigations and possible sanctions. It wouldn't have killed the program but it would have been disruptive. It also would have been a stake to the heart to the very proud reputation that Penn State was never among the wrongdoers.

All those outside the admin and program are absolutely innocent since they had no direct tie to the events that took place. But many made their livings at the feet of Joe Paterno and the successes of the football team, donated to the school and funded facility improvements (Beaver Stadium expanded from 46,000 to nearly 110,000 during Paterno's tenure). In turn, they saw economic benefit from it all. How could that not create a culture of protecting the program at all costs? Happy Valley isn't like Columbus. It doesn't have state government or banking corporate headquarters as other economic drivers. There's the university, football tourism, and very little else.

Sea Ray
07-14-2012, 10:50 AM
You think it's a stretch to suggest that the Penn State administration and athletic department didn't want to disrupt the economic machine that is (or at least was) Penn State football? Reporting child rape inside the program even then would have subjected the program to NCAA and Title IX investigations and possible sanctions. It wouldn't have killed the program but it would have been disruptive. Maybe more importantly, reporting the crimes would have been a stake to the heart to the very proud reputation that Penn State was never among the wrongdoers.

All those outside the admin and program are absolutely innocent since they had no direct tie to the events that took place. But many made their livings at the feet of Joe Paterno and the successes of the football team, donated to the school and funded facility improvements (Beaver Stadium expanded from 46,000 to nearly 110,000 during Paterno's tenure). In turn, they saw economic benefit from it all. How could that not create a culture of protecting the program at all costs? Happy Valley isn't like Columbus. It doesn't have state government or banking corporate headquarters as other economic drivers. There's the university, the tourism surrounding the football program and very little else.

It's a stretch to justify the suffering of people just because they make money off of PSU football. They had no idea any of this stuff was going on. The people who donated to the program did so with no knowledge of this stuff.

If the program had reported the McQueary incident to authorities it would have removed the burden from them. All they had to do was cooperate with the investigation and then it would have been up to the DA to get a conviction. If there was no conviction, then it's on the DA, not PSU. At that point Sandusky was already off the staff

dougdirt
07-14-2012, 10:52 AM
If the program had reported the McQueary incident to authorities it would have removed the burden from them. All they had to do was cooperate with the investigation and then it would have been up to the DA to get a conviction. If there was no conviction, then it's on the DA, not PSU. At that point Sandusky was already off the staff

Of course Sandusky was only off of the staff because of the 1998 incident that wreaks of favoritism to the football program.

paintmered
07-14-2012, 11:08 AM
It's a stretch to justify the suffering of people just because they make money off of PSU football. They had no idea any of this stuff was going on. The people who donated to the program did so with no knowledge of this stuff.


Innocence of a crime and innocence of creating a protective culture are two different things. I'm arguing the latter absolutely existed among the otherwise unknowing community. And it is this culture that influenced Penn State's response to the crimes.

To have true closure requires prosecution of the criminals and a change from the the culture as it existed.

Sea Ray
07-14-2012, 11:19 AM
Innocence of a crime and innocence of creating a protective culture are two different things. I'm arguing the latter absolutely existed among the otherwise unknowing community. And it is this culture that influenced Penn State's response to the crimes.

To have true closure requires prosecution of the criminals and a change from the the culture as it existed.

I don't know how you change culture. That culture exists everywhere in college football. Again, I don't think not reporting this was saving the football program. In fact not reporting it was jeopardizing it much more. If you want to protect the program at all costs you report it and fire a few people if necessary. There would have been very damage if they'd have reported the McQueary incident like the administrators wanted to do. It was a huge misjudgement on Paterno's part for talking them out of it. If they had reported it, the culture would not have changed

paintmered
07-14-2012, 11:25 AM
I don't know how you change culture.

You start by voluntarily suspending the program for at least a season. But that won't happen because the culture still exists in Happy Valley.

Chip R
07-14-2012, 12:01 PM
This isn't necessarily about a Penn State problem or a college football problem or even a college athletics problem. This is about an institution that makes a lot of money or has a lot of power that wants to keep making money and keep the power they have. Anything that is a threat to that will be swept under the rug.

I think Sea Ray may have a point when he said that if it were initially reported there wouldn't have been as much damage. But I think when you are on the inside of something like this, you don't see things clearly. You just want to protect the institution. You are also worried about keeping your job. That's why the janitor(s) wouldn't report what they saw. They didn't want to lose their job(s). That's why none of the higher ups didn't want to report it. They didn't want to lose thir jobs. They also knew that college football is a cutthroat business. If word got out what Sandusky was doing there, they would have lost a lot of recruits.

I think PSU should suspend the football program for 2 years. It's not fair to the players or vendors or anyone else who works there. But it sure as hell wasn't fair that all those kids were molested and raped by a prominent member of the program and no one - not the president or athletic director or even Paterno himself lifted a finger to help those kids or to stop it.

Scrap Irony
07-14-2012, 12:18 PM
The culture of Penn State football is what helped create this in the first place. It's an entire city (well, town) that has lost control.

If you remove the reason, you'll remove the problem.

dabvu2498
07-14-2012, 12:22 PM
http://espn.go.com/espn/story/_/id/8162972/joe-paterno-true-legacy

Caveat Emperor
07-14-2012, 12:44 PM
I don't know how you change culture. That culture exists everywhere in college football. Again, I don't think not reporting this was saving the football program. In fact not reporting it was jeopardizing it much more. If you want to protect the program at all costs you report it and fire a few people if necessary. There would have been very damage if they'd have reported the McQueary incident like the administrators wanted to do. It was a huge misjudgement on Paterno's part for talking them out of it. If they had reported it, the culture would not have changed

You change cultures by dropping the hammer on an example and putting the fear of God himself into every administrator, coach, janitor and onlooker in the country.

You let the stories of closed businesses and out-of-work support staff serve as everlasting reminders that EVERY person in a community who depends on an institution or organization has a personal responsibility to do the right thing. You let the silent stadium be a reminder that the cover up is always worse than the truth.

It'll hurt, but that's exactly the point of this whole exercise. If you let Penn State football continue, you are admitting to the world that Joe Paterno and his cronies succeeded in their mission to protect the program at all costs.

Redsfaithful
07-14-2012, 01:03 PM
I really do not care about Happy Valley businesses. That's capitalism, sometimes stuff blindsides your business that you have no control over. Penn State doesn't deserve to have football right now, and it shouldn't continue just so some restaurants can do better.

1990REDS
07-14-2012, 01:53 PM
I really do not care about Happy Valley businesses. That's capitalism, sometimes stuff blindsides your business that you have no control over. Penn State doesn't deserve to have football right now, and it shouldn't continue just so some restaurants can do better.

I tend to agree with you on this issue. It really is unfortunate that innocent people are going to be hurt by this but you really cant go around leaving people, institutions, businesses, etc. unpunished because innocent people may be harmed. Really anytime a crime or rule is broken innocent people are going to be negatively affected in some way. I think we can all attest that sometimes life isn't fair. We are all left to wonder what would have happened to the football program if this would have been handled back in 98. In my opinion PSU should not be punished for the actions of Sandusky (that's on him) however they should be punished for the 14 year coverup and the fact that they still allowed this monster on their campus. Jeez not even a "I don't ever want to see your face on this campus again" from JoePa. Another thing is im getting tired of people telling me that I cant let this incident make me forget all the good things JoePa has done. Yes, yes I can. IMO helping to cover up the rape of children trumps anything you have ever done in your life.

fearofpopvol1
07-14-2012, 05:30 PM
I understand where you're coming from but such a penalty would be awfully harsh and hit a lot of innocent parties

First of all it's likely that many of the 80 or so football players on scholarship will not be able to get scholarships from other schools. There's also the many folks who make money off the football team from the vendors to the sportsbar workers around town. These are hard working folks who need the money.

As it is the guilty parties will be punished harshly. You know Paterno's fate. The other three men in power will be subject to civil and possibly even crominal charges and the school will have to pay out handsomely to each and every victim that comes out.

I don't like the idea of taking away bowl appearances, but letting the school play all the games. The school will still make a ton of money and the players suffer. Where is the justice there? If you give the kids a chance to transfer, they have a chance of playing for other schools and most players would find spots on other teams (keep in mind, commits would only be affected in year 1). If there are scholarships involved, then Penn State should pay for those scholarships at other schools for that first year.

As redsfaithful pointed out, and I agree, the local businesses may suffer, and that sucks, but they knew the risks of being in business. Anything can happen. You have to evolve and be prepared for the worst.

The one thing I'll concede is 4 years may be a little harsh, but I think it should be a minimum of 3 years.

This is all moot though. I bet the NCAA doesn't do much of anything. It's corrupt.

Sea Ray
07-14-2012, 06:46 PM
This is all moot though. I bet the NCAA doesn't do much of anything.

I agree with your bottom line. I don't see that this option is being given serious consideration

dougdirt
07-14-2012, 08:16 PM
The Paterno statue will remain, at least for now, according to the board of trustees.

What a shame. They claim they are worried about making a rash decision. Really? This school needs to close down, yesterday.

Yachtzee
07-15-2012, 02:05 AM
The Paterno statue will remain, at least for now, according to the board of trustees.

What a shame. They claim they are worried about making a rash decision. Really? This school needs to close down, yesterday.

From what I've read, it seems like, even after the Freeh Report, the Board of Trustees and many in State College don't seem to fully grasp the enormity of the situation. I don't know if they will until either the NCAA comes down on them hard or they get hit with civil suits in which the compensation to the victims includes massive punitive damages.

Yachtzee
07-15-2012, 02:15 AM
or keep the statue with a minor modification:

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lugd9cJ6Tr1qa8z0po1_1280.jpg

KoryMac5
07-15-2012, 04:04 PM
Really shocked that the Govenor of Pennsylvania hasn't been dragged into this as of yet. Corbett was Attorney General when the Sandusky report was passed along to his desk. He was so concerned that he assigned one (yes one sole state trooper) to investigate these claims. Rumor has it he wanted to run for govenor and did not want to upset alumni of Penn State by blowing this thing wide open.

This thing goes deep real deep.

cumberlandreds
07-16-2012, 11:43 AM
Good article about someone who was affected by Paterno's power at Penn State.


http://www.cnn.com/2012/07/15/us/triponey-paterno-penn-state/index.html?hpt=hp_c1

Chip R
07-16-2012, 12:26 PM
Paterno's halo has been painted over by the artist who painted the mural. The artist added - for all you fans of irony - a blue ribbon on Paterno's lapel symbolizing support for child abuse victims.

http://www.newsobserver.com/2012/07/14/2198892/artist-paints-over-paternos-halo.html

HotCorner
07-16-2012, 01:11 PM
It was just a matter of time.

http://www.pennlive.com/midstate/index.ssf/2012/07/jerry_sandusky_case_three_men.html



Sources close to the Jerry Sandusky case say that three men have come forward and told police that they were abused in the 1970s or 1980s by the convicted pedophile.

They are the first men to allege abuse before the 1990s, and if found to be credible, would directly attack the 68-year-old's defense argument that a person doesn't become pedophile in his or her 50s.

In the early 1970s, when one of the men says he was abused, Jerry Sandusky would have been in his late 20s.

MWM
07-16-2012, 01:31 PM
Good article about someone who was affected by Paterno's power at Penn State.


http://www.cnn.com/2012/07/15/us/triponey-paterno-penn-state/index.html?hpt=hp_c1

Wow.

cumberlandreds
07-16-2012, 02:09 PM
It was just a matter of time.

http://www.pennlive.com/midstate/index.ssf/2012/07/jerry_sandusky_case_three_men.html (http://www.pennlive.com/midstate/index.ssf/2012/07/jerry_sandusky_case_three_men.html)

I felt all along that he has probably been doing this he was a young man. Like you said it was only a matter of time before some victims came forward.

The Operator
07-16-2012, 04:40 PM
Wow.Indeed.

I read that story and it just made me sick. What a pathetic, small little man he was. He had the whole country fooled for a long time.

MWM
07-16-2012, 05:39 PM
Indeed.

I read that story and it just made me sick. What a pathetic, small little man he was. He had the whole country fooled for a long time.

Yep, that's what I was so taken by, just how extreme the gap was between image and reality.

Redsfaithful
07-16-2012, 06:42 PM
When it comes to sports and media I kind of tend to assume the media is full of BS 99% of the time. It's a bunch of manufactured narratives and a bunch of "reporters" who buy in to everything so readily. That's why learning all of this about Paterno just isn't surprising me that much.

dougdirt
07-17-2012, 12:31 PM
http://deadspin.com/5926561/i-hope-tim-tebow-rapes-a-kid-and-other-completely-sane-penn-state-fan-reactions-to-paternovilles-renaming?utm_campaign=socialflow_deadspin_twitter&utm_source=deadspin_twitter&utm_medium=socialflow

Shut that place down. Immediately.

Sea Ray
07-17-2012, 02:36 PM
http://deadspin.com/5926561/i-hope-tim-tebow-rapes-a-kid-and-other-completely-sane-penn-state-fan-reactions-to-paternovilles-renaming?utm_campaign=socialflow_deadspin_twitter&utm_source=deadspin_twitter&utm_medium=socialflow

Shut that place down. Immediately.

Who cares what a bunch of unnamed students think? Let's take this discussion to another level and let's talk about someone all of us are very familiar with: Bill James

Bill is catching a lot of flack for his recent comments. He's one of the few who's still willing to step up for Joe Pa. Here's what he said:


--The Freeh reports states quite explicitly and at least six times (a) that the 1998 incident did NOT involve any criminal conduct -- on the part of Sandusky or anyone else -- and (b) that Paterno had forced the resignation of Sandusky before the 1998 incident occurred.


In any case, what EXACTLY is it that Paterno should have done? Fire him again? It is preposterous to argue, in my view, that PATERNO should have taken action after all of the people who were legally charged to take action had thoroughly examined the case and decided that no action was appropriate.


The 1998 incident was perceived AT THE TIME to involve no criminal conduct. The May 3, 1998 incident was very, very, very thoroughly investigated by at least four different agencies (University police, state police, and two different child welfare agencies), all four of which issued written reports stating that no criminal event had occurred. In retrospect, since the actions were part of a pattern of criminal conduct, it may be said that they were criminal conduct in and of themselves, but no one saw that at the time.

--It's very hard, in fact I think it's impossible, to explain why Paterno should have been the person to go to the police. Paterno didn't see anything. Paterno was not the reporting authority. Sandusky did not work for Paterno. Paterno had no supervised authority over Sandusky. It's extremely difficult to explain why it was Paterno's responsibility to go to the police. He knew less about it than everybody else there.

--False. Absolutely false. That's the key thing. You're saying everything revolves around him. It's total nonsense. He had very few allies. He was isolated, and he was not nearly as powerful as people imagine him to have been. And he had poor sources.


http://deadspin.com/5926485/red-sox-tell-bill-james-to-stop-defending-joe-paterno

What does Redszone make of all of that?

Here's what Rob Neyer has to say about it:



There's plenty of blame to go around. Paterno probably deserves some of it. If you take a poll of the public -- or just of Our Nation's Radio Hosts -- you'll probably find that Paterno deserves at least 50 percent of the blame that doesn't go directly to Jerry Sandusky.

I think it's lower than 50 percent. Maybe it's 5 percent. Maybe it's 45 percent. Either way, the attempts to turn Joe Paterno into some sort of uncaring monster seem to me unfair and misguided.

And the same goes for Bill James. He probably interprets some elements of the Freeh Report differently than you might. Instead of calling for his firing, if not his head, maybe we should applaud Bill for having the courage to ask questions that nobody else seems interested in asking.

Bill might be wrong about everything. But without the questions, how would we know who's right?http://mlb.sbnation.com/2012/7/16/3161844/bill-james-joe-paterno-jerry-sandusky

:feedback:

BuckeyeRed27
07-17-2012, 03:31 PM
There is a lot in there, but I will attempt to summarize my thoughts.

James seemed very focused on the 1998 incident. I don't blame Paterno for his actions there because it was investigated. The issue becomes that he did know about it, lied about that fact to a grand jury, and because of that knowledge should have done more with the information he recieved from McQuery. There is no excuse for Jerry Sandusky being allowed on campus, having an office and a suite to every home football game for the next 11 years. None.

Sea Ray
07-17-2012, 03:39 PM
There is a lot in there, but I will attempt to summarize my thoughts.

James seemed very focused on the 1998 incident. I don't blame Paterno for his actions there because it was investigated. The issue becomes that he did know about it, lied about that fact to a grand jury, and because of that knowledge should have done more with the information he recieved from McQuery. There is no excuse for Jerry Sandusky being allowed on campus, having an office and a suite to every home football game for the next 11 years. None.

Very well put...:thumbup:

MWM
07-17-2012, 03:58 PM
This whole "percentage of blame" construct is utterly ridiculous and may be the dumbest thing being published about this whole mess. It's not surprising it's coming from the sports media as they're incapable of not viewing everything through the black and white, one or other framework.

It's not like there's some fixed quantity of blame that has to be divided up among those who share responsibility in this. Some of these things that are written are treating this as such, as if 1% less blame on Paterno means 1% more on the administrators. They need to stop thinking about it in these terms, and I'm disappointed to see people like Bill James and Neyer view it that way.

marcshoe
07-17-2012, 06:48 PM
Good article about someone who was affected by Paterno's power at Penn State.


http://www.cnn.com/2012/07/15/us/triponey-paterno-penn-state/index.html?hpt=hp_c1

Last December I had Christmas Eve dinner in Florida with my father, who is a retired college professor, his wife, and some of their old colleagues. One of these was a man whose late wife had for years been a liaison to the Penn State athletic department--I'm sorry, but I don't remember her exact job title. He and his wife had been good friends with Tim Curley, who gave them a rocking chair as a retirement gift that he keeps in his home.

He was extremely upset by this whole thing, but he wasn't surprised by it. I hadn't posted on this thread, but when I read this article, it reminded me of what he said: his wife's biggest problem in her job had been dealing with Joe Paterno and the football program. He said that Paterno believed that he was the sole authority concerning what happened in the program, and that their problems should remain in house. I'm sorry if I'm mischaracterizing what he said, but this is what I got from his rather passionate speech.

He also told us that everyone at Penn State knew that there was some major problem that had led to Sandusky's forced retirement, but no one knew what the nature of it was. While he had been friends with Curley, he didn't apologize for him, but instead painted a picture of a program with no outside accountability.

marcshoe
07-17-2012, 06:51 PM
As to Bill James' insistence on Paterno's innocence, does anyone remember The Trial of Pete Rose on ESPN, where James testified that he was convinced that Rose didn't bet on baseball?

WMR
07-17-2012, 08:08 PM
I used to have a lot of respect for Bill James.

WMR
07-17-2012, 08:13 PM
There was a plane flying one of those message flags today at Happy Valley saying, "Take the statue down or we'll take it down for you."

Nice to see someone with a hint of a moral compass.

dougdirt
07-17-2012, 09:10 PM
Who cares what a bunch of unnamed students think?

It isn't just students, it also alumni. All of it is because of 'The Penn State Way'. That football is bigger than anything else. That a whole lot of good makes it ok to still celebrate someone who protected a child rapist.

And frankly, I still don't care. I want and think the entire institution should be closed down with or without that article.

KoryMac5
07-18-2012, 08:01 AM
It isn't just students, it also alumni. All of it is because of 'The Penn State Way'. That football is bigger than anything else. That a whole lot of good makes it ok to still celebrate someone who protected a child rapist.

And frankly, I still don't care. I want and think the entire institution should be closed down with or without that article.

Yes close down an entire institution for the sins of Paterno and the rest of his henchman. Penn State is a lot more than just a football program and it is not fair to academia to shut down an entire institution based on individuals within the athletic dept running rampant without proper controls.

You might as well shut down the entire state because the current govenor also knew about Sandusky and refused to dedicate enough resources to investigate.

bucksfan2
07-18-2012, 09:23 AM
It isn't just students, it also alumni. All of it is because of 'The Penn State Way'. That football is bigger than anything else. That a whole lot of good makes it ok to still celebrate someone who protected a child rapist.

And frankly, I still don't care. I want and think the entire institution should be closed down with or without that article.

I went to school at OSU in which football is king. I never understood it until I arrived there and still really can't compare it to anything I have seen since. For people who grew up in central or northern Ohio OSU football is like a religion. That said Ohio State University means much much much much more to the community than just a football team. On orentiation they told us that on a school day the campus of OSU is the 4th largest city in Ohio. I would be willing to be that OSU is the largest employer in Columbus (UC is in Cincinnati). The university means much more to the community than just a football program.

You don't shut down PSU for the sins of a couple of people. You don't close the doors on the local businesses who depend on PSU, you don't send all the employees of PSU to the unemployment office, you don't stop all the research, or the education of the students, all because of the sins of a couple of people. That is a knee jerk reaction that makes little sense. Jerry Sandusky was a monster, the people who covered it up just as bad, but do you close down every company that employees a sex offender? Should the Catholic Church have shut down Notre Dame, Boston College, all the local high schools and grade schools because of the scandal they had?

Sea Ray
07-18-2012, 09:40 AM
On orentiation they told us that on a school day the campus of OSU is the 4th largest city in Ohio.

So before you even took a class they were telling you fairy tales. :confused:

The 4th largest city in the state would be either Cincinnati or Toledo and they're just a tick under 300K. No way OSU swells to anywhere near that on any school day.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cities_in_Ohio


(Being an OSU graduate myself, I can poke fun at them for this sort of thing)

cincrazy
07-18-2012, 12:05 PM
So before you even took a class they were telling you fairy tales. :confused:

The 4th largest city in the state would be either Cincinnati or Toledo and they're just a tick under 300K. No way OSU swells to anywhere near that on any school day.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cities_in_Ohio


(Being an OSU graduate myself, I can poke fun at them for this sort of thing)

Perhaps he's referring to football Saturdays... in that case OSU's campus probably IS the 4th largest city in Ohio. I know in 2006 when UM and OSU were both undefeated there were 105,000 in the stadium and an estimated 250,000-300,000 outside the stadium.

Sea Ray
07-18-2012, 12:06 PM
Perhaps he's referring to football Saturdays... in that case OSU's campus probably IS the 4th largest city in Ohio. I know in 2006 when UM and OSU were both undefeated there were 105,000 in the stadium and an estimated 250,000-300,000 outside the stadium.

Even that sounds far fetched. Where were the 250-300K outside the stadium?

Yachtzee
07-18-2012, 03:25 PM
As to Bill James' insistence on Paterno's innocence, does anyone remember The Trial of Pete Rose on ESPN, where James testified that he was convinced that Rose didn't bet on baseball?

I was just thinking about that. He may be great at coming up with new ways to evaluate players, but he's pretty terrible when it comes to evaluating a person's character. He seems to be a romantic at heart who wants to believe in the mythos that some sports figures have built around themselves.

bucksfan2
07-18-2012, 03:48 PM
So before you even took a class they were telling you fairy tales. :confused:

The 4th largest city in the state would be either Cincinnati or Toledo and they're just a tick under 300K. No way OSU swells to anywhere near that on any school day.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cities_in_Ohio


(Being an OSU graduate myself, I can poke fun at them for this sort of thing)

I am not exactly sure. It seemed to me there is a pretty good chance its 5th or 6th behind the C's, Dayton and Toledo. But on a given day there are a lot of people on that campus. Not only students but faculity and staff, as well as local business within that area.

Regardless large state universities are vital to the economies of their area. Maybe not so much as OSU because it sits in a rather large city as is, but in State College, PSU means more than most outsiders can imagine.

Sea Ray
07-18-2012, 04:09 PM
I am not exactly sure. It seemed to me there is a pretty good chance its 5th or 6th behind the C's, Dayton and Toledo. But on a given day there are a lot of people on that campus. Not only students but faculity and staff, as well as local business within that area.

Regardless large state universities are vital to the economies of their area. Maybe not so much as OSU because it sits in a rather large city as is, but in State College, PSU means more than most outsiders can imagine.

I can't imagine the football program is any less powerful or important at OSU than PSU. In other words if there was talk of taking down statues or handing out a death penalty, you better believe the folks in Columbus would be circling the wagons and I don't see anything wrong with that.

dougdirt
07-18-2012, 08:46 PM
Yes close down an entire institution for the sins of Paterno and the rest of his henchman. Penn State is a lot more than just a football program and it is not fair to academia to shut down an entire institution based on individuals within the athletic dept running rampant without proper controls.

You might as well shut down the entire state because the current govenor also knew about Sandusky and refused to dedicate enough resources to investigate.

Penn State is more than a football program. It is a school, who has trustees and a President who were in on this. It wasn't just the athletic department. And even still, the new board of trustees are doing the same things. Making decisions based on athletics. Get rid of them all. Close it down. Board it up.

As for the Governor, yeah, he should go too if he covered it up/failed to report it.

Yachtzee
07-18-2012, 09:24 PM
I can't imagine the football program is any less powerful or important at OSU than PSU. In other words if there was talk of taking down statues or handing out a death penalty, you better believe the folks in Columbus would be circling the wagons and I don't see anything wrong with that.

I think that the difference is that OSU has never had a coach who was able to take over such a dominant hold of the campus culture that they could hold sway over the academic administration. Being a great coach couldn't save Woody Hayes when he punched that Clemson kid and Tressel couldn't survive the Tattoo scandal. I have a feeling that, if a football coach tried to keep allegations of child abuse by one of his coaches quiet at OSU, the higher ups would have told him to report it or be fired. I think it would be the same way at Michigan or Wisconsin or any of the other Big Ten schools.

hebroncougar
07-18-2012, 10:35 PM
I went to school at OSU in which football is king. I never understood it until I arrived there and still really can't compare it to anything I have seen since. For people who grew up in central or northern Ohio OSU football is like a religion. That said Ohio State University means much much much much more to the community than just a football team. On orentiation they told us that on a school day the campus of OSU is the 4th largest city in Ohio. I would be willing to be that OSU is the largest employer in Columbus (UC is in Cincinnati). The university means much more to the community than just a football program.

You don't shut down PSU for the sins of a couple of people. You don't close the doors on the local businesses who depend on PSU, you don't send all the employees of PSU to the unemployment office, you don't stop all the research, or the education of the students, all because of the sins of a couple of people. That is a knee jerk reaction that makes little sense. Jerry Sandusky was a monster, the people who covered it up just as bad, but do you close down every company that employees a sex offender? Should the Catholic Church have shut down Notre Dame, Boston College, all the local high schools and grade schools because of the scandal they had?


That's the exact kind of mindset that led to the whole debacle. "We are too big to do anything about it". Sorry, if I were president of the ncaa, the program would cease to exist. That's the least I can do for an administrative wide coverup of boys being raped and sexually abused, with the football program acting as a gateway for the whole thing. At thus point I could care less about the guy wellingice water on the corner, or a nearby business.

Sent from my Desire HD using Tapatalk 2

KoryMac5
07-19-2012, 10:46 AM
Penn State is more than a football program. It is a school, who has trustees and a President who were in on this. It wasn't just the athletic department. And even still, the new board of trustees are doing the same things. Making decisions based on athletics. Get rid of them all. Close it down. Board it up.

As for the Governor, yeah, he should go too if he covered it up/failed to report it.

Unless I am missing something the BOT was not part of the cover up for Sandusky. The President, Paterno, VP, and athletic director all were in on a cover up according to the report. All of those folks have been cut loose by the university. I think it is over the top to shut down an entire school based on the mistakes of a handful. AS I have said earlier Penn State is a lot more than a football program and the good professors and students that attend the university should not have to suffer for there actions. Shut down football for a yr, or a lifetime if you must but don't punish the kids that are there to learn and trying to better themselves.

The Operator
07-19-2012, 01:09 PM
The school won't have to be shut down, it's going to die on it's own.

As has been mentioned a few times in this thread, due to failing to report all of this suspected abuse, they are staring down the barrel of becoming inelgible to receive federal aid and student loans.

That alone is going to make the place a Ghost Town, if it doesn't kill it completely.

Dom Heffner
07-19-2012, 01:35 PM
Can you read? He was saying that last fall, when it broke, that he needed to know those facts and that they weren't there at the time.

For me you have to be incredibly naive or stupid to think that the most powerful man on campus had no idea what was going on or didn't make some directive on how to handle it.

What Sea Ray was proposing was that these people would hide this from him and he had no clue. That isn't even in the realm of believability. And so, yeah, we knew this last fall.

It wasn't like I was going out on a limb with this thinking.

Dom Heffner
07-19-2012, 01:36 PM
The school won't have to be shut down, it's going to die on it's own.

As has been mentioned a few times in this thread, due to failing to report all of this suspected abuse, they are staring down the barrel of becoming inelgible to receive federal aid and student loans.

That alone is going to make the place a Ghost Town, if it doesn't kill it completely.

I truly hope you are right.

My gut tells me they'll find a way around it. Nothing ever happens to these schools.

bucksfan2
07-19-2012, 01:48 PM
I truly hope you are right.

My gut tells me they'll find a way around it. Nothing ever happens to these schools.

So you think that 99.9999% of that community should be shut down because of the transgressions of 3-4 people?

WMR
07-19-2012, 01:52 PM
For me you have to be incredibly naive or stupid to think that the most powerful man on campus had no idea what was going on or didn't make some directive on how to handle it.

What Sea Ray was proposing was that these people would hide this from him and he had no clue. That isn't even in the realm of believability. And so, yeah, we knew this last fall.

It wasn't like I was going out on a limb with this thinking.

Or a troll.

The Operator
07-19-2012, 01:57 PM
So you think that 99.9999% of that community should be shut down because of the transgressions of 3-4 people?That's Capitalism. Like it or not, it's the way our economy works.

I'm not going to go easy on Penn State to avoid feeling bad about the Pennsylvania job market. Tell 'em if they wanna see a truly bad job market to come to the Dayton area.

The Operator
07-19-2012, 01:59 PM
I truly hope you are right.

My gut tells me they'll find a way around it. Nothing ever happens to these schools.True, they usually do.

Hopefully on something so larg-scale is this there will be enough people watching that they're held accountable. It might be painful to watch but Penn State needs to be used to set an example for everyone else. If you do what they did, you're done.

Sea Ray
07-19-2012, 02:00 PM
That's Capitalism. Like it or not, it's the way our economy works.

I'm not going to go easy on Penn State to avoid feeling bad about the Pennsylvania job market. Tell 'em if they wanna see a truly bad job market to come to the Dayton area.

State owned Universities and the NCAA are a lot of things but capitalism isn't one of them

KoryMac5
07-19-2012, 02:21 PM
The school won't have to be shut down, it's going to die on it's own.

As has been mentioned a few times in this thread, due to failing to report all of this suspected abuse, they are staring down the barrel of becoming inelgible to receive federal aid and student loans.

That alone is going to make the place a Ghost Town, if it doesn't kill it completely.

Would be the first time ever that Federal Aid was pulled for violations of the Cleary Act. Don't see it happening. More realistic is major fines as it is 27,500 per violation, which would span a number of since the school never implemented it. Penn State has 1.8 billion endowment with fines and civil suits is is speculated the university would take a hefty hit but not enough to board the campus up.

KoryMac5
07-19-2012, 02:34 PM
It's an opinion piece but it really does a good job formulating questions for the Govenor of PA who was the AG during the Sandusky investigation. The Gov refuses to answer any questions related to his involvement.

http://www.delcotimes.com/articles/2012/07/16/opinion/doc500484c4eef82305964009.txt?viewmode=fullstory&fb_ref=.UAXwITuqaoi.like&fb_source=home_oneline

bucksfan2
07-19-2012, 03:08 PM
That's Capitalism. Like it or not, it's the way our economy works.

I'm not going to go easy on Penn State to avoid feeling bad about the Pennsylvania job market. Tell 'em if they wanna see a truly bad job market to come to the Dayton area.

State universities are not capitalism.

I guess I view things differently than you do. I want the guilty parties punished. I don't find any joy in seeing innocent people hurt becasue of the transgressions of others. What Sandusky did has zero to do with the math and sciences dean. The coverup has nothing to do with the PSU hospital. Should we say hell with all the people that have been helped by that hospital because there was a cover up involving 4 (?) people?

What about all the good the research department is doing? Should we scrap all that because Sandusky was a monster? Should we scrap all the scientists, engineers, law students, nurses, teachers, physicists, etc. PSU truns into the workforce each and every year because of Sandusky and a handful of others?

Look I want to see the guilty parties punished. But have see no joy in wanting to see PSU destroyed for something that everyone sans 4 people weren't complicit in.

dougdirt
07-19-2012, 03:08 PM
Would be the first time ever that Federal Aid was pulled for violations of the Cleary Act. Don't see it happening. More realistic is major fines as it is 27,500 per violation, which would span a number of since the school never implemented it. Penn State has 1.8 billion endowment with fines and civil suits is is speculated the university would take a hefty hit but not enough to board the campus up.

Then why does the Cleary Act even exist?

Chip R
07-19-2012, 03:20 PM
Then why does the Cleary Act even exist?

I don't think it's to shut down universities.

The Operator
07-19-2012, 03:27 PM
State owned Universities and the NCAA are a lot of things but capitalism isn't one of themNo, but the surrounding businesses and the way said universities affect their market share is.

The Operator
07-19-2012, 03:29 PM
State universities are not capitalism.I didn't say they were. As I said above, the surrounding markets are. I want the university punished. If, as a result of that punishment - surrounding private businesses get hurt, then that happens. And that IS capitalism.

This doesn't necessarily apply to you, but I've noticed more than one person in here who would normally want government to stay out of business and the private sector and let nature take it's course. Then why are we advocating letting Penn State get off free because we're afraid of how it will affect the surrounding private sector businesses?

Scrap Irony
07-19-2012, 03:37 PM
State universities are not capitalism.

I guess I view things differently than you do. I want the guilty parties punished. I don't find any joy in seeing innocent people hurt becasue of the transgressions of others.

So you're okay with universities firing head coaches for breaking the rules and receiving no sanctions afterward?

That seems to me as if it's treating a sympton but not its cause.

Penn State, as an institution (and Happy Valley as a town) has chosen to put football above the welfare of its children. Children!

Football and the cult of personality behind Joe Paterno continues, as seen with present-day administration, alumni, and students, continues to be the primary focus of the university and its people.

Therefore, IMO, the best policy is that football shouldn't exist, in that such a time as it becomes less important to all.

It's the very definition of a university (and town) that's lost its way. That way needs to be righted by whatever means the NCAA has.

Redsfaithful
07-19-2012, 03:47 PM
I'm fine with the university continuing to exist. But the football program should be killed.

If a program doesn't get the death penalty for looking the other way when kids were getting molested then good god, what is the point in even having an NCAA?

KoryMac5
07-19-2012, 03:50 PM
I didn't say they were. As I said above, the surrounding markets are. I want the university punished. If, as a result of that punishment - surrounding private businesses get hurt, then that happens. And that IS capitalism.

This doesn't necessarily apply to you, but I've noticed more than one person in here who would normally want government to stay out of business and the private sector and let nature take it's course. Then why are we advocating letting Penn State get off free because we're afraid of how it will affect the surrounding private sector businesses?

Penn State is not private industry though, it is a state sponsored institution of higher learning.

KoryMac5
07-19-2012, 03:59 PM
I'm fine with the university continuing to exist. But the football program should be killed.

If a program doesn't get the death penalty for looking the other way when kids were getting molested then good god, what is the point in even having an NCAA?

Death Penalty won't happen. Only one school (SMU) has ever received it and that was after being place on probation. I think what you will see is the NCAA gut the program for a number of yrs with ways to reduce the penalties based on PSU's willingness to make improvements to the culture there.

dougdirt
07-19-2012, 04:37 PM
I don't think it's to shut down universities.

Well, technically removing their ability to get federal money wouldn't have to shut them down. Just downsize by 80%.

The Operator
07-19-2012, 06:04 PM
Penn State is not private industry though, it is a state sponsored institution of higher learning.I've never disputed that. The surrounding businesses ARE private industry though. To let their well-being influence disciplinary decisions re: Penn State is not something I want to see happen. Businesses fail all the time because large employers nearby have problems. Such is capitalism.

dougdirt
07-19-2012, 09:52 PM
http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/id/8182621/penn-state-nittany-lions-trustee-steve-garban-steps-downs-jerry-sandusky-scandal

Penn State University trustee Steve Garban, the chairman of the board during the Jerry Sandusky scandal, has stepped down, chairwoman Karen Peetz said Thursday. The investigators of the Freeh report blamed the trustees' culture of secrecy and deference for university leaders to allow the crisis to do more to harm Penn State's reputation than any other event in its 156-year history.

Caveat Emperor
07-20-2012, 12:39 AM
Death Penalty won't happen. Only one school (SMU) has ever received it and that was after being place on probation. I think what you will see is the NCAA gut the program for a number of yrs with ways to reduce the penalties based on PSU's willingness to make improvements to the culture there.

The football program will be a rallying point for students and alums looking to support their embattled school.

The only way to change the culture away from the "Football *is* Penn State" is to eliminate the program entirely and allow the university to function without it.

Slyder
07-20-2012, 09:59 AM
The football program will be a rallying point for students and alums looking to support their embattled school.

The only way to change the culture away from the "Football *is* Penn State" is to eliminate the program entirely and allow the university to function without it.

And you might as well shut down the entire sports program then. Without football the athletic department goes belly up. Is it fair to penalize hundreds (if not thousands) of student athletes because of the actions of a handful? What about B1G's already released schedule? What about the contracts Penn State has already signed? Because of the actions of a few. Does B1G still get to have their championship game with 11 members because its already been scheduled? Are you going to allow any member of Penn State athletic teams to transfer to another school when the school has to cut its program?

The NCAA saw this with SMU and it is why it (death penalty) hasn't been used since the mid 80s. It affects WAY too many other schools to issue the death penalty. Its disgusting what occured there but A) Paterno is dead and his legacy is crumbling, B) Sandusky won't see the light of freedom the rest of his life, C) The administration has been changed, D) I figure were not done with the changes to the BOT.

Caveat Emperor
07-20-2012, 10:50 AM
And you might as well shut down the entire sports program then. Without football the athletic department goes belly up. Is it fair to penalize hundreds (if not thousands) of student athletes because of the actions of a handful? What about B1G's already released schedule? What about the contracts Penn State has already signed? Because of the actions of a few. Does B1G still get to have their championship game with 11 members because its already been scheduled? Are you going to allow any member of Penn State athletic teams to transfer to another school when the school has to cut its program?

The NCAA saw this with SMU and it is why it (death penalty) hasn't been used since the mid 80s. It affects WAY too many other schools to issue the death penalty. Its disgusting what occured there but A) Paterno is dead and his legacy is crumbling, B) Sandusky won't see the light of freedom the rest of his life, C) The administration has been changed, D) I figure were not done with the changes to the BOT.

Hurting lots of people is kind of the point -- you don't change cultures and serve warnings to the rest of the world by nicely asking and limiting collateral damage. This is an opportunity for the NCAA and the civilized world to push back and remind places like Penn State that they are institutions of higher learning that happen to have an athletic department. There's a reason they say "student" first in the term "student-athletes" -- they're allegedly at school to get an education, not run track and field or play football.

And really, you CAN minimize the damage to non-guilty parties by allowing free transfers and granting an extra year of eligibility to everyone who leaves.

The Operator
07-20-2012, 11:09 AM
Hurting lots of people is kind of the point -- you don't change cultures and serve warnings to the rest of the world by nicely asking and limiting collateral damage. This is an opportunity for the NCAA and the civilized world to push back and remind places like Penn State that they are institutions of higher learning that happen to have an athletic department. There's a reason they say "student" first in the term "student-athletes" -- they're allegedly at school to get an education, not run track and field or play football.

And really, you CAN minimize the damage to non-guilty parties by allowing free transfers and granting an extra year of eligibility to everyone who leaves.My thoughts exactly. Making it painful IS the point. If you let PSU off the hook with a slap on the wrist, why would they change their culture. They'll just become emboldened.

Chip R
07-20-2012, 12:57 PM
I think the goal here is to show other institutions - be they football, basketball or baseball powers - that wrongdoing and cover-ups will not be tolerated. It's not necessarily to punish Penn State - but it's so someone at State U who learns of something going on that is illegal - either as far as the NCAA is concerned or the criminal justice system - reports that activity and the guilty party pays the consequences. These coaches and administrators should be made to realize that covering up criminal - and rulebook - activity is eventually going to cost them their jobs, their legacies, a lot of money and - quite possibly - their freedom.

WMR
07-20-2012, 02:28 PM
They're taking the statue down. Smart move.

Chip R
07-20-2012, 03:53 PM
They're taking the statue down. Smart move.

Gutsy decision. I imagine there will be some students who will try to physically block this from happening.

Danny Serafini
07-20-2012, 04:27 PM
They're taking the statue down. Smart move.

Not sure where you heard that, but the decision hasn't been made yet:

http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/id/8184260/joe-paterno-statue-call-made-penn-state-nittany-lions-president

WMR
07-20-2012, 04:28 PM
I read it on a different forum... hmm...

marcshoe
07-20-2012, 10:23 PM
I read it on a different forum... hmm...

There are other forums? :eek:

dougdirt
07-20-2012, 10:27 PM
There are other forums? :eek:

Not ones that matter.

cincrazy
07-22-2012, 09:34 AM
Cbsnews is reporting that tomorrow morning at 9 AM, the NCAA will announce "unprecedented" penalties on PSU. Death penalty perhaps? It's going to be an interesting day.

Also, Paterno statue was removed this morning.

WMR
07-22-2012, 10:22 AM
I always found it amusing when people would say that the "NCAA has no jurisdiction in this matter." The NCAA has jurisdiction in whatever they damn well please when it comes to colleges and any involvement by athletics on any scale.

Reds Fanatic
07-22-2012, 10:38 AM
Cbsnews is reporting that tomorrow morning at 9 AM, the NCAA will announce "unprecedented" penalties on PSU. Death penalty perhaps? It's going to be an interesting day.

Also, Paterno statue was removed this morning.

This article does not sound like the death penalty but it will be harsh sanctions.

http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/id/8188629/ncaa-levy-unprecedented-sanctions-penn-state-nittany-lions

jojo
07-22-2012, 12:04 PM
Cbsnews is reporting that tomorrow morning at 9 AM, the NCAA will announce "unprecedented" penalties on PSU. Death penalty perhaps? It's going to be an interesting day.

Also, Paterno statue was removed this morning.

This article is vague but it too suggests the death penalty will not be applied:

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout/paterno-statue-penn-state-123528628.html

dougdirt
07-22-2012, 12:46 PM
Statue down, name remains on the Library.

Because that makes sense....

Tony Cloninger
07-22-2012, 01:03 PM
Yes I too went to "Other Sites" and found most posters were brutal in their attacks on the whole PSU institution....while those defending Paterno, or mainly the University were calling out that this was a "Liberal Agenda" When did not supporting anyone covering up for a child molester become a liberal agenda?

Reminds me of the people who would call people out in the late 50's early 60's ...who were calling for Civil Rights as "Commie sympathizers"

paintmered
07-22-2012, 01:32 PM
I wonder if unprecedented punishments could include no home games for a season or three?

The Operator
07-22-2012, 02:16 PM
I wonder if unprecedented punishments could include no home games for a season or three?THAT would be awesome. Not quite the death penalty but it still makes a pretty strong point.

KoryMac5
07-22-2012, 02:41 PM
I wonder if unprecedented punishments could include no home games for a season or three?

I doubt it, most likely a postseason ban, no TV, and loss of a number of scholarships.

Taking away home games hurts Penn State but it also hurts the surrounding community. Why the need to punish those not directly involved in the program.

Personally I would like to see PSU donate 50-100% of the profits from home games to charity for the next few seasons. That would be a good start in beginning the healing process.

KoryMac5
07-22-2012, 02:49 PM
I guess the question now becomes does PSU appeal the penalty, or fight it in the courts. Or decide to take it's medicine and move on. Personally I think they should move forward, as the court of public opinion would murder them if they decided to fight this.

paintmered
07-22-2012, 02:55 PM
I guess the question now becomes does PSU appeal the penalty, or fight it in the courts. Or decide to take it's medicine and move on. Personally I think they should move forward, as the court of public opinion would murder them if they decided to fight this.

There's a tweet from the Harrisburg media stating that PSU won't appeal. For what that's worth right now.

KoryMac5
07-22-2012, 03:18 PM
Yeah I just heard that as well. Most believe PSU is working with the NCAA on what the sanctions are which is why they won't appeal.

Hoosier Red
07-22-2012, 04:39 PM
Cbsnews is reporting that tomorrow morning at 9 AM, the NCAA will announce "unprecedented" penalties on PSU. Death penalty perhaps? It's going to be an interesting day.

Also, Paterno statue was removed this morning.

No to be cute, but death penalty has been done. Therefore it's precedented no?

paintmered
07-22-2012, 05:01 PM
An excerpt from Dan Wetzel's latest.


Sources say the school will continue to field a team. However, it will deal with heavy scholarship losses over the next three-to-five years as well as a multiyear ban in postseason competition and multimillion dollar financial penalties.

The standard line rippling through college sports Sunday is that while Penn State will be spared the death penalty, the penalties will make them wish they weren't.

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/ncaaf--mark-emmert-ncaa-penn-state-sanctions-joe-paterno-graham-spanier-.html

Boston Red
07-22-2012, 05:37 PM
If the rumors on the punishment are correct, the Big Ten will have no choice: they will have to either suspend Penn State football from Big Ten play or kick the school out of the league entirely. It would be dangerous to send a team full of walk-ons to play football against Michigan, Ohio State, Nebraska and the like.

kaldaniels
07-22-2012, 05:49 PM
If the rumors on the punishment are correct, the Big Ten will have no choice: they will have to either suspend Penn State football from Big Ten play or kick the school out of the league entirely. It would be dangerous to send a team full of walk-ons to play football against Michigan, Ohio State, Nebraska and the like.

I think the choice of keeping PSU in the league is still in play, even if the rumors are true.

It will be interesting to see if once the penalties are announced, if the media focuses in on the league.

Boston Red
07-22-2012, 05:53 PM
They can stay in the league, but there's no way they can play a Big Ten conference schedule without scholarship players. They'd lose by 100 points (if teams felt like beating them that bad), and their players would be dangerously physically overmatched.

kaldaniels
07-22-2012, 05:56 PM
They can stay in the league, but there's no way they can play a Big Ten conference schedule without scholarship players. They'd lose by 100 points (if teams felt like beating them that bad), and their players would be dangerously physically overmatched.

I read that as saying they will have no scholarship players. I haven't seen that reported and find it hard to believe it will happen...we'll see.

Boston Red
07-22-2012, 06:01 PM
There are rumors of a 4-5 year complete ban on giving scholarships. If the actual penalties are less severe, it could be that Penn State could field a team incapable of winning in the Big Ten but that wouldn't put its players in danger against the schedule. Like a bad Sun Belt team.

KronoRed
07-22-2012, 06:18 PM
I wonder what the big 10+2 rules are regarding throwing someone out.

jojo
07-22-2012, 06:28 PM
There are rumors of a 4-5 year complete ban on giving scholarships. If the actual penalties are less severe, it could be that Penn State could field a team incapable of winning in the Big Ten but that wouldn't put its players in danger against the schedule. Like a bad Sun Belt team.

Pitt St might be able to beat the Nittany Lions in Happy Valley.

DGullett35
07-22-2012, 07:05 PM
Maybe this has been said already but I was wondering what happens to the guys on scholarship now? Do they still have to sit out a year if they transfer? Even though the school deserves all the penalties they get the players don't deserve it.

dougdirt
07-22-2012, 07:07 PM
Maybe this has been said already but I was wondering what happens to the guys on scholarship now? Do they still have to sit out a year if they transfer? Even though the school deserves all the penalties they get the players don't deserve it.

As of now, I don't think there is any word on that..... but I will say this: The next time the NCAA does something right for a student athlete, it will probably be the first time.

Reds Fanatic
07-22-2012, 07:18 PM
Maybe this has been said already but I was wondering what happens to the guys on scholarship now? Do they still have to sit out a year if they transfer? Even though the school deserves all the penalties they get the players don't deserve it.

From what I have read the players will be allowed to transfer from Penn State to other schools and they won't have to wait to play for a year like usually happens when someone transfers.

jojo
07-22-2012, 07:31 PM
From what I have read the players will be allowed to transfer from Penn State to other schools and they won't have to wait to play for a year like usually happens when someone transfers.

This is my impression as well. I've actually wondered if Roof would be calling Auburn about some players given his ties. There is going to be a flurry of efforts by the PSU coaching staff to try and do their best for their scholarship players.

Reds Fanatic
07-22-2012, 09:06 PM
According to CNN part of the penalties to be announced tomorrow is Penn State will be have to pay fines of over $30 million dollars

Chip R
07-22-2012, 09:20 PM
According to CNN part of the penalties to be announced tomorrow is Penn State will be have to pay fines of over $30 million dollars

I sure hope that money goes to anti-child abuse organizations.

KoryMac5
07-22-2012, 09:24 PM
Word out of State College is that PSU will not appeal as they feel more damage will be done long term by continuing to keep this in the media, especially with the perjury trials coming up. The only thing up in the air is whether or not there will be a TV ban handed down. Also I am hearing the fine will be 60 million dollars.

I think the NCAA is moving to more of a Roger Goodel style of leadership in which the NCAA president will take a more hands on approach. I think the U should be very afraid.

Caveat Emperor
07-22-2012, 09:30 PM
I'll be really annoyed if the NCAA sanctions are merely scholarship reductions, a postseason ban and a $30 million dollar fine.

That's a slap on the wrist and a pocket-change fine for the worst sports scandal in as long as I can remember. USC suffered roughly the same penalty, and they're a favorite to win the national title in their first year "back" from punishment status.

The NCAA continues to be a total joke.

Playadlc
07-22-2012, 09:38 PM
From what I have read the players will be allowed to transfer from Penn State to other schools and they won't have to wait to play for a year like usually happens when someone transfers.

It's still going to be tough for these kids, especially at this late date. Most progams are at 80 plus grants, and there won't be much room for others.

BuckeyeRed27
07-22-2012, 09:56 PM
I'll be really annoyed if the NCAA sanctions are merely scholarship reductions, a postseason ban and a $30 million dollar fine.

That's a slap on the wrist and a pocket-change fine for the worst sports scandal in as long as I can remember. USC suffered roughly the same penalty, and they're a favorite to win the national title in their first year "back" from punishment status.

The NCAA continues to be a total joke.

How about we wait and see what the penalty is before we start throwing out "slap on the wrist". There have been rumors of 5+ year post season ban and possibly no scholarships offered for a period of time. The potential revenue loss coupled with a $30MM+ fine could be very severe.

jojo
07-22-2012, 11:26 PM
Here's the letter to PSU:

http://www.psu.edu/ur/2011/NCAA.pdf

jojo
07-22-2012, 11:29 PM
How about we wait and see what the penalty is before we start throwing out "slap on the wrist". There have been rumors of 5+ year post season ban and possibly no scholarships offered for a period of time. The potential revenue loss coupled with a $30MM+ fine could be very severe.

Once sanctions are in place, players can bolt. This could be immediately devastating.

Caveat Emperor
07-23-2012, 02:38 AM
How about we wait and see what the penalty is before we start throwing out "slap on the wrist". There have been rumors of 5+ year post season ban and possibly no scholarships offered for a period of time. The potential revenue loss coupled with a $30MM+ fine could be very severe.

Penn State has a $1.8 BILLION endowment. $30M is pocket change that will be easily replaced as alums rally to the cause.

The scholarships issue will be key -- if they reduce scholarships, it is a slap on the wrist (as I said: USC has had "reduced" scholarships and a post-season ban but still managed to position itself as a NC contender in year 1 back). If they deny them the ability to hand out scholarships entirely, that's a different matter. But, I've yet to read any report that indicates that (outright loss of all scholarships) as a potential punishment.

KoryMac5
07-23-2012, 08:51 AM
Penn State is supposedly in a new era of transparency, yet the President (Erikson) cut this deal with the NCAA while keeping the board of trustees in the dark through the entire process.

As for the NCAA I think they knew they were on a slippery slope with sanctions for criminal matters, never before have they sanctioned any program for the bad behavior of a coach and athletic dept, and I think they felt they would lose on appeal based on how they have reacted to criminal behavior in the past. I would imagine both sides reached out to each other due to mounting public pressure to come up with a solution.

Not sure what people were looking for here as far as punishment goes, I think when we look back in 5 yrs or so these penalties and this scandal will have killed a program and it's university. It's not something that you can walk away from ever, and you shouldn't. Penn State is such a part of Pennsylvania it is OUR school something every person in PA can be proud of. This scandal is a big punch in the gut. And I think what you will find is more people like myself who disown the program, leaving only a loyal few clinging to fallen idols and watered down memories.

Reds Fanatic
07-23-2012, 09:15 AM
so far the punishment is a $60 million dollar fine, a 4 year bowl ban, they vacate all wins from 1998 to 2011 and lose scholarships but I am not sure how many scholarships they are losing

Chip R
07-23-2012, 09:17 AM
90 scholarships over a 4 year period.

RiverRat13
07-23-2012, 09:18 AM
It will take at least 7-8 years for Penn State to be competitive again. That's no slap on the wrist.

Reds Fanatic
07-23-2012, 09:18 AM
Actually here are the details on the scholarships they are losing:

http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/id/8191027/penn-state-hit-60-million-fine-4-year-bowl-ban-wins-dating-1998


Penn State must also reduce 10 initial and 20 total scholarships each year for a four-year period, the release said.

And the $60 million must be paid to child sexual abuse programs or to victims.


"These funds must be paid into an endowment for external programs preventing child sexual abuse or assisting victims and may not be used to fund such programs at the university," the statement said.

HeatherC1212
07-23-2012, 09:19 AM
Joe Reedy tweeted that Penn State may have avoided the actual death penalty punishment but they just got back to back lifetime sentences. That may be true after all is said and done. Wow. :eek:

Glad that the money is going to go to programs that help child sexual abuse victims.

Caveat Emperor
07-23-2012, 09:21 AM
The university will still make millions of dollars on the program selling tickets. There will still be chants of "WE ARE PENN STATE" echoing on Saturdays, and they'll emerge from the other side of sanctions just fine.

Wrist. Slap.

Chip R
07-23-2012, 09:23 AM
The university will still make millions of dollars on the program selling tickets. There will still be chants of "WE ARE PENN STATE" echoing on Saturdays, and they'll emerge from the other side of sanctions just fine.

Wrist. Slap.

Perhaps. But I'm not so sure people are going to be as enthusiastic to go out and see them get pounded every week.

schmidty622
07-23-2012, 09:24 AM
The university will still make millions of dollars on the program selling tickets. There will still be chants of "WE ARE PENN STATE" echoing on Saturdays, and they'll emerge from the other side of sanctions just fine.

Wrist. Slap.

Agreed. The program should have been shut down for at least three years. But college sports has become too big a business for the NCAA to ever do that again.

Stray
07-23-2012, 09:26 AM
So PSU hasn't won a game since 97, JoePa is basically washed out of the record books, and PSU can't field a competitive football team for a long time. Then the money going to helping out abused children, which I think is great.

Overall I think the punishments make sense. The collateral damage is going to punish a lot of innocent people there, like smaller sports that the football team was funding, but collateral damage was unavoidable here.

Caveat Emperor
07-23-2012, 09:27 AM
Perhaps. But I'm not so sure people are going to be as enthusiastic to go out and see them get pounded every week.

The same way USC got pounded every week the last few years?

Reds Fanatic
07-23-2012, 09:29 AM
They are also going to allow Penn State players to immediately transfer to other schools without having to sit out a year.

sonny
07-23-2012, 09:29 AM
The same way USC got pounded every week the last few years?

Different animal. Way different.

RiverRat13
07-23-2012, 09:36 AM
The same way USC got pounded every week the last few years?

Penn State doesn't have one of the best QBs in the country. USC underclassmen were not allowed to leave while all Penn State players can. So for a HS kid during USC's first year of punishment he would only miss a bowl his freshman year at USC. Penn State is not only going to have an exodus of current players, but for at least the next two years its recruiting classes will be beyond awful with kids knowing they will miss bowl games most of their career.

Plus USC has the Song Girls...

Caveat Emperor
07-23-2012, 09:42 AM
Different animal. Way different.

OK, explain it to me. I'm reading it as they'll have scholarships reduced by 20 per year -- so they'll still have 65 kids on scholarship. That's still more than enough to compete.

As I said -- USC is competitive with 75 kids on scholarship. I find it hard to believe 10 scholarship kids (most of whom will never see the field in any given year) will cause Penn State to be non-competitive.

I also find it incredibly difficult to believe that top-tier recruits care about missing a trip to a bowl game. They care about playing in big-time conferences and playing on TV first and foremost. Penn State will still offer them that.

hebroncougar
07-23-2012, 09:45 AM
The university will still make millions of dollars on the program selling tickets. There will still be chants of "WE ARE PENN STATE" echoing on Saturdays, and they'll emerge from the other side of sanctions just fine.

Wrist. Slap.

+1. Just another nail in the coffin for "amateur" athletics in my book. It's a joke.

Caveat Emperor
07-23-2012, 09:49 AM
And, for some further "loss of faith in humanity" -- watch how fast the donations pile into Penn State as alums show solidarity with the program and watch how quickly they pay this fine off.

RiverRat13
07-23-2012, 09:52 AM
I also find it incredibly difficult to believe that top-tier recruits care about missing a trip to a bowl game. They care about playing in big-time conferences and playing on TV first and foremost. Penn State will still offer them that.

Do you really think ESPN or ABC is going to have a Penn State game on in the next couple of years? They will be relegated to the Big 10 Network each week. So basically they are Indiana with 20 less scholarships.

Penn State has 13 commits right now, six of which are 4 or 5 stars. One has already de-committed. I would wager by the end of the week the other five will as well.

bucksfan2
07-23-2012, 09:58 AM
OK, explain it to me. I'm reading it as they'll have scholarships reduced by 20 per year -- so they'll still have 65 kids on scholarship. That's still more than enough to compete.

As I said -- USC is competitive with 75 kids on scholarship. I find it hard to believe 10 scholarship kids (most of whom will never see the field in any given year) will cause Penn State to be non-competitive.

I also find it incredibly difficult to believe that top-tier recruits care about missing a trip to a bowl game. They care about playing in big-time conferences and playing on TV first and foremost. Penn State will still offer them that.

What did those 65 players on scholarship have to deal with the whole scandal? I guess everyone who says "We Are Penn State" is complicit in the scandal and cover up.

The NCAA is hammering the people who had zero, absolutley nothing to do with the scandal and coverup.

cumberlandreds
07-23-2012, 10:07 AM
Here's a link to the punishment.
I find it more of a punishment towards Paterno than the Univeristy and Football Program. All wins stripped from 1998 is aimed at Paterno. I thought the scholarship reduction was too light. IMO they should have stripped them of any scholarships for one year and then a gradual increase over five years depending on how they comply within the handling of the football program. Reduction of scholarships will hurt them but won't be catostrophic.
The monetary is a lot but not anything Penn State can't overcome by just putting on huge fundraising drive.
The ban from bowl games will have an effect on recruiting. I doubt they will get top level players knowing that in the end they have no chance to play in a bowl or playoff game.

Overall I think they are lighter than they should be. But if Penn State was truly wanting to put things into prospective they would shut things down for a year or two right now. If anything just to think about what's more important, football or having good solid educational instititution that puts things in the proper order.

http://www.cnn.com/2012/07/23/us/pennsylvania-penn-state-ncaa/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

jojo
07-23-2012, 10:18 AM
It will take at least 7-8 years for Penn State to be competitive again. That's no slap on the wrist.

I tend to agree. This is a big blow to the ability for the program to be competitive.

Is their program still a money-making juggernaut? Yes. But they are going to take a big hit.

Just the hit they will take on recruiting will severely handicap their ability to be a top tier program for a long time. In the SEC, this type of penalty would be death by a thousand swords.

Is it enough in light of the reasons for the sanctions? I can see where reasonable people might argue otherwise. But there does seem to be alot of Penn State fans that are still in denial.

jojo
07-23-2012, 10:44 AM
Here is the skivy on how PSU transfers will be handled:

http://www.ncaa.org/wps/wcm/connect/public/ncaa/20120723/21207234

Here's a part that I did not expect:


Additionally, the NCAA is considering waiving scholarship limits for programs to which these football student-athletes transfer, provided they reduce proportionately in the next year. For example, the limit is 25 new scholarships per year to a total of 85 scholarships. If the limits are waived in 2012-13 to accommodate one Penn State student-athlete who wishes to transfer to a particular school already at the limits, in 2013-14 the school will be limited to 24 new scholarships and 84 total scholarships.

Essentially the NCAA opened up the Penn State program to unfettered recruiting. I expected underclassman and players who have signed LOIs to be poached but the NCAA is providing a mechanism for programs to make room for upperclassman too.

Cedric
07-23-2012, 10:46 AM
It's amazing how one person can be the first domino to take down a gigantic program.

It's almost impossible to believe if it wasn't true.

MWM
07-23-2012, 10:56 AM
I think they would have been competitive sooner with the death penalty. This type of scholarship reduction will impact teams 8 years down the road. I don't see them ever recovering from this and I don't see how the Big Ten can keep them around. With the timing of the playoff and conference realignment, they need another good program.

jojo
07-23-2012, 11:02 AM
I think they would have been competitive sooner with the death penalty. This type of scholarship reduction will impact teams 8 years down the road. I don't see them ever recovering from this and I don't see how the Big Ten can keep them around. With the timing of the playoff and conference realignment, they need another good program.

This is a blow for the conference too.

BuckeyeRed27
07-23-2012, 11:32 AM
Penn St doesn't have a shot at being good at football for at least 7 years and probably more like 10. They are basically going to field a walk on squad for the next 3 to 5 years.

To jojo's last post I do think the Big 10 has to seriously consider expanding again. Kicking out Penn St might be a little harsh, but they are an anchor in more ways than one right now.

Yachtzee
07-23-2012, 11:33 AM
This is a blow for the conference too.

I wonder if the Big10 is considering talking to schools they talked to in the past to replace PSU.

Reds Freak
07-23-2012, 11:37 AM
And, for some further "loss of faith in humanity" -- watch how fast the donations pile into Penn State as alums show solidarity with the program and watch how quickly they pay this fine off.

I wouldn't consider donations pouring into Penn State at this point a loss in faith of humanity. Money will either be going to child sex abuse victims or helping the current student-athletes, who had nothing to do with the crimes, move forward and have quality collegiate experiences.

I think Penn State will be back sooner than people think. I'd say Bill O'Brien now has the safest job in college football. Get paid big bucks with absolutely zero expectations.

Reds Fanatic
07-23-2012, 11:52 AM
I wonder if the Big10 is considering talking to schools they talked to in the past to replace PSU.

So far the Big Ten has not announced any plans to replace PSU. The conference did announce a few additional sanctions the main one being the conference won't share any bowl revenue from the other Big Ten schools with Penn State over the next 4 years.

http://www.cbssports.com/collegefootball/blog/college-football-rapidreports/19638504/big-ten-hammers-psu-following-ncaa-sanctions-

Roy Tucker
07-23-2012, 12:14 PM
So, the $60M to a fund for preventing sexual abuse of children is a good thing. But I honestly don't get what the rest of the punishment is supposed to accomplish.

If you want to shut them down, then do that. And frankly, I think they should have. But I just don't get this punishmet.

RiverRat13
07-23-2012, 12:18 PM
I wouldn't consider donations pouring into Penn State at this point a loss in faith of humanity. Money will either be going to child sex abuse victims or helping the current student-athletes, who had nothing to do with the crimes, move forward and have quality collegiate experiences.

I believe the loss of faith in humanity would come from the motives of the donations, not the outcomes.


I think Penn State will be back sooner than people think. I'd say Bill O'Brien now has the safest job in college football. Get paid big bucks with absolutely zero expectations.

I guess it would be helpful to define what people mean by "back". Do you mean back to being a Big 10 title contender who on occasion is in the National Title picture or back to winning seasons and a trip to the Outback Bowl? In the last decade PSU has been much more of the latter than the former. With the right coach (maybe O'Brien is that guy) I could see getting back to the 7-9 win level in six years. But it is going to take at least 8-10 to have a chance to become what Penn State was in the '70s and '80s.

Caveat Emperor
07-23-2012, 12:25 PM
So, the $60M to a fund for preventing sexual abuse of children is a good thing. But I honestly don't get what the rest of the punishment is supposed to accomplish.

It lets the NCAA act tough while letting the Big 10 keep Penn State on their schedules.

As far as Penn State is concerned, they get to keep selling 100,000+ tickets to games and they get to continue not being the Big 10 champions for a few more years.

improbus
07-23-2012, 12:42 PM
The football program funds the entire Penn State athletic program. If the football players themselves have nothing to do with the scandal, then the Volleyball team has even less to do with it. The Death Penalty for football would eliminate not just those 85 scholarships, but probably hundreds of other scholarships as well as coaching jobs, etc... I actually think the penalties are about right.

Redsfaithful
07-23-2012, 12:45 PM
So, the $60M to a fund for preventing sexual abuse of children is a good thing. But I honestly don't get what the rest of the punishment is supposed to accomplish.

If you want to shut them down, then do that. And frankly, I think they should have. But I just don't get this punishmet.

I think it's a death penalty without the NCAA having to take responsibility for it being a death penalty.

Penn State will be bad for at least the next 8 years. And at that point who is to say if they will ever recover. 8 years is a long time and a lot to come back from.

Yachtzee
07-23-2012, 01:13 PM
The football program funds the entire Penn State athletic program. If the football players themselves have nothing to do with the scandal, then the Volleyball team has even less to do with it. The Death Penalty for football would eliminate not just those 85 scholarships, but probably hundreds of other scholarships as well as coaching jobs, etc... I actually think the penalties are about right.

I don't buy that argument. There are plenty of universities with great programs in other sports with no football team, or a very bad one. Honestly, I think most big football schools end up pouring much of their revenue back into the program through facility upgrades and salaries to big name coaches.

Penn St can still do well in basketball or volleyball without a major football team.

improbus
07-23-2012, 01:23 PM
I don't buy that argument. There are plenty of universities with great programs in other sports with no football team, or a very bad one. Honestly, I think most big football schools end up pouring much of their revenue back into the program through facility upgrades and salaries to big name coaches.

Penn St can still do well in basketball or volleyball without a major football team.

Penn State basketball earned 9.48 million this season (8 of which came from the Big Ten/NCAA). That is the only other team on campus to make money.

http://thegazette.com/2012/07/22/a-look-inside-penn-states-athletic-finances/

dougdirt
07-23-2012, 01:26 PM
Penn State basketball earned 9.48 million this season (8 of which came from the Big Ten/NCAA). That is the only other team on campus to make money.

http://thegazette.com/2012/07/22/a-look-inside-penn-states-athletic-finances/

Which is why they shouldn't play other sports. If your sport can't support itself, either through fundraising or ticket/tv sales, it should not exist in college.

Reds Freak
07-23-2012, 01:43 PM
Which is why they shouldn't play other sports. If your sport can't support itself, either through fundraising or ticket/tv sales, it should not exist in college.

Really? Should universities cancel every extra-curricular on campus that doesn't turn a profit?

jojo
07-23-2012, 01:44 PM
It's tough to argue that colleges should drop any sport that doesn't make money on one hand and decry the NCAA for being all about money on the other....

dougdirt
07-23-2012, 01:53 PM
Really? Should universities cancel every extra-curricular on campus that doesn't turn a profit?

Yes, they should. Higher education should be about that. Tuition is sky freaking high these days. Focus on educating. Cut costs where you can.

BuckeyeRed27
07-23-2012, 01:58 PM
Yes, they should. Higher education should be about that. Tuition is sky freaking high these days. Focus on educating. Cut costs where you can.

So all education takes place in the class room? Students don't learn anything from participating in sports or other activities that are causing such a drain on the budgets? Interesting.

dougdirt
07-23-2012, 02:04 PM
So all education takes place in the class room? Students don't learn anything from participating in sports or other activities that are causing such a drain on the budgets? Interesting.

No, all education doesn't take place in a classroom. But I would rather see the tens of millions of dollars that some football programs run be turned into usage for lowering tuition for students rather than going toward supporting a bunch of sports that lose money left and right because 'it is fair'.

Caveat Emperor
07-23-2012, 02:10 PM
The football program funds the entire Penn State athletic program. If the football players themselves have nothing to do with the scandal, then the Volleyball team has even less to do with it. The Death Penalty for football would eliminate not just those 85 scholarships, but probably hundreds of other scholarships as well as coaching jobs, etc... I actually think the penalties are about right.

BS.

The NCAA could have conditioned a reinstatement of the football program from suspension on Penn State continuing to fund all non-revenue sports.

The university has an endowment north of $1.5 billion and a huge donating alumni base. They'd have paid up for the volleyball team if it meant they could have their football team back as quickly as possible.

Dom Heffner
07-23-2012, 02:22 PM
The football program funds the entire Penn State athletic program. If the football players themselves have nothing to do with the scandal, then the Volleyball team has even less to do with it. The Death Penalty for football would eliminate not just those 85 scholarships, but probably hundreds of other scholarships as well as coaching jobs, etc... I actually think the penalties are about right.

Then we have the "Well, we can do anything here in the football program because all these people depend on us" type thing, which seems to be what happened.

To me, you put an end to them for awhile and then everyone else suffers, and then they can make sure that when they fire things back up, they behave themselves now that they realize the damage they've done.

Perhaps this punishment is worse than the death penalty- I'm not an NCAA guy, so you all probably know better than I do.

Caveat Emperor
07-23-2012, 02:25 PM
Then we have the "Well, we can do anything here in the football program because all these people depend on us" type thing, which seems to be what happened.

To me, you put an end to them for awhile and then everyone else suffers, and then they can make sure that when they fire things back up, they behave themselves now that they realize the damage they've done.

Perhaps this punishment is worse than the death penalty- I'm not an NCAA guy, so you all probably know better than I do.

This.

Plus, this penalty worse than the death penalty? I'd take 65 scholarship kids playing and making money for the university vs. 0 scholarship kids and no games being played. This is peanuts compared to the death penalty.

Yachtzee
07-23-2012, 03:23 PM
I still think the football team doesn't fund the other sports as much as you think. Notice the article stated that the football surplus mostly goes toward maintenance and capital improvements. I suspect most of that goes to maintaining and improving the football facilities.

I live near the Universities of Akron and Kent State. Both have poor football teams, yet Akron was recently national champs in soccer and Kent went to the College World Series this year. Both schools not only built strong programs in other sports, but also had the money to outbid bigger schools and keep their coaches. Football success is not a prerequisite for success in other sports.

Dom Heffner
07-23-2012, 03:55 PM
This.

Plus, this penalty worse than the death penalty? I'd take 65 scholarship kids playing and making money for the university vs. 0 scholarship kids and no games being played. This is peanuts compared to the death penalty.

It's really hard for me to follow college football because of how nutty the rules are.

The whole system stinks to high heaven.

KoryMac5
07-23-2012, 04:22 PM
This.

Plus, this penalty worse than the death penalty? I'd take 65 scholarship kids playing and making money for the university vs. 0 scholarship kids and no games being played. This is peanuts compared to the death penalty.

I think your lust for blood and anger at PSU is clouding your judgement. If you ask 10 PSU fans what they would rather have current sanctions or the death penalty most would say the death penalty.

The death penalty would have allowed PSU and O'Brien to go to kids and say we are starting fresh after next year. He basically could use this season as a recruiting yr. This penalty guts the team as you are not only losing scholarships but allowing kids to transfer to any program they would like. The only kids who are going to stay with the program are the ones who are juniors or seniors this season. No kid is going to want to spend 4 yrs at a university that is consistently getting there helmets handed to them. I don't see PSU being remotely competitive until maybe 2025. Plus from the comments I hear coming from New PSU President Erickson the football program is going to be deemphasized going forward with an emphasis put on academics.

KoryMac5
07-23-2012, 04:27 PM
From what I hear Emmert came to PSU and threatened the Death Penalty if PSU did not agree to the current sanctions. Plus Penn State had to waive due process in accepting these sanctions. Makes sense the more you think about because just 48 hrs ago the death penalty was on the table and then was quickly taken off as PSU agreed to what Emmert proposed. Looks like all of this happened pretty quickly as the President of the University only consulted with PSU's legal counsel and the President of the BOT and not the full board.

KronoRed
07-23-2012, 04:28 PM
This is the kind of punishment that should have been given to USCw and should be given to schools that get in trouble such as fsu and their academic fraud a few years ago.

The only thing I would have changed with Penn State's punishment would be a TV ban and all proceeds from ticket sales also being given to charity.

Somewhat surprised at the big10+2 keeping them around, but I've read they need them in next year as they expand into hockey. $

Caveat Emperor
07-23-2012, 04:30 PM
I think your lust for blood and anger at PSU is clouding your judgement. If you ask 10 PSU fans what they would rather have current sanctions or the death penalty most would say the death penalty.

The death penalty would have allowed PSU and O'Brien to go to kids and say we are starting fresh after next year. He basically could use this season as a recruiting yr. This penalty guts the team as you are not only losing scholarships but allowing kids to transfer to any program they would like. The only kids who are going to stay with the program are the ones who are juniors or seniors this season. No kid is going to want to spend 4 yrs at a university that is consistently getting there helmets handed to them. I don't see PSU being remotely competitive until maybe 2025. Plus from the comments I hear coming from New PSU President Erickson the football program is going to be deemphasized going forward with an emphasis put on academics.

At the end of the day:

1. They still play in the Big 10 w/ the Big 10 TV deal in place
2. They still have fantastic facilities
3. They still have an enormous donating alumni base.

They're losing a few scholarships. They'll still have 65 D-1, BCS-level athletes -- last I checked you only start 11 guys on offense and 11 guys on defense. It's not like they're going to turn into Ball State because of this. No one is bulldozing the facilities built by the money Paterno earned. The alums aren't going to close the checkbooks. They'll still win football games, they'll still sell out Beaver Stadium, and they'll still make money.

It's not like they were sniffing national titles before all this went down anyway. It'll be "business as usual" for Penn State this time a year from now, IMO. If they would've been banned from TV or kicked out of the Big 10, it would've been a different story.

KoryMac5
07-23-2012, 04:37 PM
At the end of the day:

1. They still play in the Big 10 w/ the Big 10 TV deal in place
2. They still have fantastic facilities
3. They still have an enormous donating alumni base.

They're losing a few scholarships. They'll still have 65 D-1, BCS-level athletes. It's not like they're going to turn into Ball State because of this. They'll still win football games, they'll still sell out Beaver Stadium, and they'll still make money.

It's not like they were sniffing national titles before all this went down anyway. It'll be "business as usual" for Penn State this time a year from now, IMO. If they would've been banned from TV or kicked out of the Big 10, it would've been a different story.

The NCAA took away the TV bans a few yrs ago at the request of the Networks. The NCAA likes to talk tough but when the networks start handing out millions that tough talk goes away quick.

As for the facilities and the donations I don't see how you could ever take these away from a school. PSU had great facilities and alumni before the scandal and will continue having those after the scandal.

Not sure what you are looking for here. These penalties have killed this program. The team will not be competitive for 10+ years going forward. The team will be out of the spotlight and the only kids who will want their name associated with PSU are maybe the sons and daughters of alumni. Christ I don't even like telling people I was born and raised in Pennsylvania because of this scandal.

Reds Freak
07-23-2012, 04:45 PM
I think your lust for blood and anger at PSU is clouding your judgement. If you ask 10 PSU fans what they would rather have current sanctions or the death penalty most would say the death penalty.

The death penalty would have allowed PSU and O'Brien to go to kids and say we are starting fresh after next year. He basically could use this season as a recruiting yr. This penalty guts the team as you are not only losing scholarships but allowing kids to transfer to any program they would like. The only kids who are going to stay with the program are the ones who are juniors or seniors this season. No kid is going to want to spend 4 yrs at a university that is consistently getting there helmets handed to them. I don't see PSU being remotely competitive until maybe 2025. Plus from the comments I hear coming from New PSU President Erickson the football program is going to be deemphasized going forward with an emphasis put on academics.

2025? I think some are going a little overboard with the doomsday predictions for Penn State. I don't see how not allowing a team to take a trip to Detroit for the Motor City Bowl at the end of the year is really going to affect them all that much. You can still have a quality student-athlete experience and play in the NFL without going to a bowl game. Sure, they won't compete for a national title anytime soon and they might be a 3-4 win team for the next couple years. But I'm sure there are still a ton of kids growing up in Pennsylvania who dream about playing for the Nittany Lions.

I'm saying this as someone who thinks the NCAA penalties were fair. It sent a big message, gives a significant amount of money to sexual abuse victim programs and doesn't really punish current student-athletes.

KoryMac5
07-23-2012, 05:02 PM
2025? I think some are going a little overboard with the doomsday predictions for Penn State. I don't see how not allowing a team to take a trip to Detroit for the Motor City Bowl at the end of the year is really going to affect them all that much. You can still have a quality student-athlete experience and play in the NFL without going to a bowl game. Sure, they won't compete for a national title anytime soon and they might be a 3-4 win team for the next couple years. But I'm sure there are still a ton of kids growing up in Pennsylvania who dream about playing for the Nittany Lions.

I'm saying this as someone who thinks the NCAA penalties were fair. It sent a big message, gives a significant amount of money to sexual abuse victim programs and doesn't really punish current student-athletes.

I think it is going to take at least 10 plus yrs for the program to get past these sanctions. Plus going to PSU is now attached to scandal I think a lot of kids will think twice about going to a school that housed a known monster. I know I wouldn't want my kids playing their based on that fact alone. Only the diehard kids who have parents attached to the program will want to go there now.

dougdirt
07-23-2012, 05:20 PM
I think it is going to take at least 10 plus yrs for the program to get past these sanctions. Plus going to PSU is now attached to scandal I think a lot of kids will think twice about going to a school that housed a known monster. I know I wouldn't want my kids playing their based on that fact alone. Only the diehard kids who have parents attached to the program will want to go there now.
Not just that, kids growing up right now are going to latch onto other programs as Penn State gets beaten around like the sisters of the poor.

Redsfaithful
07-23-2012, 05:39 PM
A lot of it is about perception, I doubt Penn State will win any (ANY) recruiting battles until 2017, and at that point they will have a fairly long stretch of 3-9 seasons and 5 years of being perceived as Child Abuse U (what do you think kids and future recruits who are 12-13 and younger are getting out of this massively national story about the university?)

Someone said they won't be Ball State, I think they will be worse. We will see, but these are crippling penalties imo.

Caveat Emperor
07-23-2012, 05:45 PM
The NCAA took away the TV bans a few yrs ago at the request of the Networks. The NCAA likes to talk tough but when the networks start handing out millions that tough talk goes away quick.

As for the facilities and the donations I don't see how you could ever take these away from a school. PSU had great facilities and alumni before the scandal and will continue having those after the scandal.

Not sure what you are looking for here. These penalties have killed this program. The team will not be competitive for 10+ years going forward. The team will be out of the spotlight and the only kids who will want their name associated with PSU are maybe the sons and daughters of alumni. Christ I don't even like telling people I was born and raised in Pennsylvania because of this scandal.

As someone who has worked with child victims of sexual abuse, I wanted to see the program burned to the ground. I wanted students and alums to walk by an empty stadium on Saturdays and be forced to remember the evil men who had allowed innocent children to be violated. I wanted ADs and Head Coaches everywhere to know, as they debated whether or not to do the right thing, that the justice of the Allmighty himself was waiting to drop down on them if they strayed from the moral path. Kill the program and make them come back as a member of the MAC -- see how deep the love for Penn State football is when they're playing a Thursday night game against Akron.

Instead? Penn State will have a couple lean years and be back to relative prominence (lets face it -- they've been second-tier in the major college football scene for a while now) within 3-4 years. They'll still be on national TV. They'll still sell out the stadium. They'll still lose to Ohio State a lot.

I'll add this -- I'd rather be Penn State right now, facing these sanctions, than UC, Boise State, or South Florida. Penn State is guaranteed (absent further action from the B10) a seat at the big-boy table for future college football negotiations. They'll always have access to the national title due to their conference affiliation. They'll always have access to major bowls due to their conference affiliation.

If you could offer me, as a UC fan, the opportunity to get the death penalty (or this "diet death penalty" / "enhanced wrist-slap") and come back in 4 years as a member of the Big 10, I'd take it in a heartbeat.

improbus
07-23-2012, 06:21 PM
BS.

The NCAA could have conditioned a reinstatement of the football program from suspension on Penn State continuing to fund all non-revenue sports.

The university has an endowment north of $1.5 billion and a huge donating alumni base. They'd have paid up for the volleyball team if it meant they could have their football team back as quickly as possible.

Could they fund 28 sports? Also, I'm guessing that Penn State's 1.5 billion is already spoken for. Penn State's non football and basketball sports cost $9.1 million (and that doesn't count the coaches salary, student aid (scholarships), recruiting, and game day experiences. I think they would pay for some of the sports, but without football, their athletic department would look a lot more like a MAC school.

http://businessofcollegesports.com/2011/05/03/how-much-of-a-drain-are-other-sports/

BTW, that website is really interesting. It has a line item account of OSUs football budget. It isn't nearly what you would think.

KoryMac5
07-23-2012, 06:34 PM
As someone who has worked with child victims of sexual abuse, I wanted to see the program burned to the ground. I wanted students and alums to walk by an empty stadium on Saturdays and be forced to remember the evil men who had allowed innocent children to be violated. I wanted ADs and Head Coaches everywhere to know, as they debated whether or not to do the right thing, that the justice of the Allmighty himself was waiting to drop down on them if they strayed from the moral path. Kill the program and make them come back as a member of the MAC -- see how deep the love for Penn State football is when they're playing a Thursday night game against Akron.

Instead? Penn State will have a couple lean years and be back to relative prominence (lets face it -- they've been second-tier in the major college football scene for a while now) within 3-4 years. They'll still be on national TV. They'll still sell out the stadium. They'll still lose to Ohio State a lot.

I'll add this -- I'd rather be Penn State right now, facing these sanctions, than UC, Boise State, or South Florida. Penn State is guaranteed (absent further action from the B10) a seat at the big-boy table for future college football negotiations. They'll always have access to the national title due to their conference affiliation. They'll always have access to major bowls due to their conference affiliation.

If you could offer me, as a UC fan, the opportunity to get the death penalty (or this "diet death penalty" / "enhanced wrist-slap") and come back in 4 years as a member of the Big 10, I'd take it in a heartbeat.

Again your job makes you too close to this that all you can see is red. As a social worker myself and one who has worked with CPS I admire the passion, however I think your anger is being directed at the wrong folks. The students and alumni had no way of knowing what was going on with Sandusky or the cover up. Why punish them by making them walk by an empty stadium every Saturday. Did it make me sick to see people defend Paterno and the program, yes, but not enough to make them suffer for their ignorance. And I would also point out that not all PSU fans have blind allegience to Paterno.

This isn't a diet death penalty, enhanced wrist slap by any means. And most of the papers and talking heads agree with me that the penalty is severe. In fact there are several that think it is too harsh.

Personally I think more should have been done by the NCAA and PSU to raise awareness for child abuse. I think they accomplished the mission of making sure it never happens again however they failed to bring home the point in that there are monsters out there and people need to do more to stop them.

dougdirt
07-23-2012, 06:53 PM
This isn't a diet death penalty, enhanced wrist slap by any means. And most of the papers and talking heads agree with me that the penalty is severe. In fact there are several that think it is too harsh.


Watched ESPN this afternoon. Several people on there thought this wasn't enough. So it goes both ways a little bit. I am with CE on this though, I don't think it was nearly enough.

nmculbreth
07-23-2012, 08:47 PM
I'll add this -- I'd rather be Penn State right now, facing these sanctions, than UC, Boise State, or South Florida. Penn State is guaranteed (absent further action from the B10) a seat at the big-boy table for future college football negotiations. They'll always have access to the national title due to their conference affiliation. They'll always have access to major bowls due to their conference affiliation.

If you could offer me, as a UC fan, the opportunity to get the death penalty (or this "diet death penalty" / "enhanced wrist-slap") and come back in 4 years as a member of the Big 10, I'd take it in a heartbeat.

Spot on.

They're shut out of the bowl games and their share of the bowl money, but at the end of the day they'll still fill their 100k seat stadium and have a solid revenue stream coming in from their share of the Big Ten Network dollars.

Will they have problems recruiting out-of-state against the upper echelon programs? Absolutely. But at the end of the day they're the only football power in a state with a decent amount of HS talent, which means they're never going to be a MAC level school even with fewer scholarship players.

They deserved far worse. If the NCAA wanted to send a strong message they should have allowed Penn State to continue their football program without the benefit of any scholarships or the opportunity to appear on any sort of TV platform for the foreseeable future. Instead they'll basically be allowed to cut a check and go about their business with a few less scholarships. I fail to see the calamity others are prognosticating.

Chip R
07-23-2012, 10:32 PM
I wouldn't have minded seeing the death penalty enforced but, as others have said, this is really going to mess up their program for at least a decade, maybe even a generation. I may be wrong but I believe that the 100K people who have shown up at Beaver Stadium all these years may decide not to come to the games after all to watch a doormat. They are going to lose 90 scholarships over 5 years. I'd be surprised if they get one blue chip recruit outside Pennsylvania during this time. They are essentially going to be a 1-AA school. As a fan of a 1-AA school I know that they can beat the 1-A schools from time to time but when you are playing 11-12 games against a 1-A school you are going to have problems competing over the long haul. This is much worse than suspending the program for a year or two.

What I worry about is that every player and coach is now going to be subject to sanctions by the NCAA for breaking the law. If a coach has too much to drink and he's pulled over, is he going to be suspended? Same thing goes for a player.

Caveat Emperor
07-23-2012, 10:54 PM
Breaking the law wasn't the reason for the unprecedented action -- it was a combination of criminal activity over a prolonged period of time with an orchestrated cover-up meant to deny victims justice and leave a predator that had team access unpunished all in the name of protecting the reputation of the program. I don't see how a one-off OVI/DUI rises to anywhere near that standard.

And, really, as long as Penn State has access to national TV on Saturday and a Big 10 schedule to play, they'll never sink anywhere NEAR 1-AA level. There arent many recruits out there who would chose a MAC / C-USA school over a sanctioned Penn State. Playing in the Pizza Bowl isn't that big of a deal.

Slyder
07-23-2012, 11:50 PM
Yes, they should. Higher education should be about that. Tuition is sky freaking high these days. Focus on educating. Cut costs where you can.

So those who get an education, that otherwise couldn't afford it, because of those sports mean nothing?

dougdirt
07-24-2012, 12:11 AM
So those who get an education, that otherwise couldn't afford it, because of those sports mean nothing?

How many non basketball-non football athletes get full scholarships? About 1% at best. Yes, it certainly helps to get a partial scholarship, but only basketball and football are out there handing out full scholarships to 90% of their roster.

I will take the greater good of a whole bunch of people getting cheaper tuition and having more people getting a chance than a handful of athletes missing out on college because they got a third of a scholarship to play soccer/wrestle and decided to not go on to school.

HeatherC1212
07-24-2012, 12:29 AM
How many non basketball-non football athletes get full scholarships? About 1% at best. Yes, it certainly helps to get a partial scholarship, but only basketball and football are out there handing out full scholarships to 90% of their roster.

I will take the greater good of a whole bunch of people getting cheaper tuition and having more people getting a chance than a handful of athletes missing out on college because they got a third of a scholarship to play soccer/wrestle and decided to not go on to school.

I know it probably depends on the school overall, but I do know for a fact that there are kids in my area on full ride scholarships for gymnastics, soccer, baseball, softball, and volleyball so there are other sports that help students out with scholarships.

Yachtzee
07-24-2012, 02:19 AM
Could they fund 28 sports? Also, I'm guessing that Penn State's 1.5 billion is already spoken for. Penn State's non football and basketball sports cost $9.1 million (and that doesn't count the coaches salary, student aid (scholarships), recruiting, and game day experiences. I think they would pay for some of the sports, but without football, their athletic department would look a lot more like a MAC school.

http://businessofcollegesports.com/2011/05/03/how-much-of-a-drain-are-other-sports/

BTW, that website is really interesting. It has a line item account of OSUs football budget. It isn't nearly what you would think.

Assuming it's the general endowment fund, no it isn't spoken for. In fact, many schools are criticized because they don't use their endowments toward anything other than as a a means of showing what an impressive school they are. It's said that many schools with
endowments over 1 billion could allow students to attend for free or at greatly reduced rates just from a portion of the investment earnings on the endowment, but choose to reinvest those earnings instead. The only way donors can ensure their donations are being spent and not being held onto is by making a special purpose endowment, like toward a professorship, or in Paterno's case, the library. But special purpose endowments that come with restrictions on how the money is spent aren't usually considered part of the general endowment fund.

Penn State is rich enough to be able to fund their other sports without football and without becoming "a MAC school," although as I've noted above, there are MAC schools that compete for national championships without a big time football program.

camisadelgolf
07-24-2012, 05:49 AM
I heard the library was going to stay named after Paterno just to make sure no one talks in there.

muddie
07-24-2012, 06:18 AM
I heard the library was going to stay named after Paterno just to make sure no one talks in there.


:D

dougdirt
07-25-2012, 07:10 AM
I heard the library was going to stay named after Paterno just to make sure no one talks in there.

http://www.kumailplus.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/bazinga.jpg

KoryMac5
07-25-2012, 04:10 PM
30 PSU players came out today stating they would not transfer. O'Brien has done a good job so far of holding this group together all things considered. Reports have come in that the Illini sent asst coaches to camp out in front of where the kids stay on campus, while other coaches are calling players directly without going through PSU first.

PSU also will not send any players to Big 10 media day as well.

Caveat Emperor
07-25-2012, 06:59 PM
30 PSU players came out today stating they would not transfer. O'Brien has done a good job so far of holding this group together all things considered. Reports have come in that the Illini sent asst coaches to camp out in front of where the kids stay on campus, while other coaches are calling players directly without going through PSU first.

PSU also will not send any players to Big 10 media day as well.

As I said -- the "doom and gloom" about Penn State football is grossly overstated. They'll emerge from the other side of this just fine.

Disappointing to see that a 4 year "death penalty" was on the table prior to these toothless sanctions were put in place.

KoryMac5
07-25-2012, 07:59 PM
As I said -- the "doom and gloom" about Penn State football is grossly overstated. They'll emerge from the other side of this just fine.

Disappointing to see that a 4 year "death penalty" was on the table prior to these toothless sanctions were put in place.

Most of the kids staying are juniors and seniors who have something invested into the program, and their classes, no way were they going to transfer. The big hit will come when PSU starts losing out on 4 and 5 star kids that they have recruited for 2013 and beyond.

KoryMac5
07-25-2012, 08:48 PM
The BOT at PSU was very upset with Erickson (PSU's president) for signing off on this deal. The board felt that since Erickson didn't inform them of the deal and they were kept in the dark. The Board had wanted to get this decision that the President made overturned. Erickson came out today and stated the NCAA wanted to shut down the entire football program for 4 yrs, (basically a 4 yr death penalty). Erickson declined to sign on for that due to the financial impact it would cost not only the county but the State and instead took the deal that was offered next which was the current one in place.

Reds Fanatic
07-25-2012, 09:31 PM
This is the story on the 4 year death penalty that a group of college presidents had originally recommended as the punishment:

http://espn.go.com/espn/otl/story/_/id/8199905/penn-state-nittany-lions-rodney-erickson-said-school-faced-4-year-death-penalty

savafan
07-26-2012, 02:17 PM
Victim 2 comes forward

http://www.pennlive.com/midstate/2012/07/jerry_sandusky_case_lawyers_sa.html