Votto expected to be out 3-4 weeks after knee surgery

[Dom Heffner]

Any word? If this is somewhere else, I apologize...just hoping it is a day off...

[Reds Fanatic]

Any word? If this is somewhere else, I apologize...just hoping it is a day off...

Yes it is just a day off. Dusty said even before last night's game he was giving Votto a day off today. He would have given him a day off this weekend but did not want to do it against the Cardinals.

[klw]

http://cincinnati.com/blogs/reds/2012/07/16/reds-lineup-v-d-backs/
It’s just a day off for Joey Votto. Dusty Baker mentioned the fatigue factor yesterday. The swap of Stubbs and Cozart is interesting. Neither has been good in leadoff; both have been much better hitting second.

Reds facing a lefty tonight.

[Dom Heffner]

Thanks guys! I get paranoid...

[marcshoe]

Seems pretty obvious to me that they've traded him for Greinke.

:p

[RedsManRick]

I've seen whispers that while his knee issues from a few weeks back aren't serious, they are lingering and likely won't go away. Dusty says it's affected Votto's running. I imagine he's going to be given plenty of time to stay fresh.

[vaticanplum]

Thanks guys! I get paranoid...

I'm checking the internet regularly for medical reports on Johnny Cueto's blister, so yeah, I feel you.

[Ghosts of 1990]

We just had four days off. I know Votto played in the AS game and all but....

[vic715]

What was concerning me was the number of routine groundouts he has had since the knee issue came about,including the ones in the All star game.Thats not Votto at all.The worst part is Cairo and not Frazier will be on first tonight.

[Reds Fanatic]

What was concerning me was the number of routine groundouts he has had since the knee issue came about,including the ones in the All star game.Thats not Votto at all.The worst part is Cairo and not Frazier will be on first tonight.

Frazier is playing first tonight.

[Sea Ray]

I've seen whispers that while his knee issues from a few weeks back aren't serious, they are lingering and likely won't go away. Dusty says it's affected Votto's running. I imagine he's going to be given plenty of time to stay fresh.

Have we heard a diagnosis yet? My bet is it's a meniscus and that we'll quietly hear that he got it scoped sometime after this season

[lollipopcurve]

My bet is it's a meniscus and that we'll quietly hear that he got it scoped sometime after this season

My guess too.

[Crumbley]

There's a quarter of a billion dollars on the line, give him the night off.

[Strikes Out Looking]

We just had four days off. I know Votto played in the AS game and all but....

Not only did he play in the AS game but he had to fly from SD to Cin then go to KC for the all-star game and then come back to Cincy. This is not a JR situation.

[RedlegNation]

I'm not particularly worried at this point...but yeah, if I hear that Votto has a hangnail, I will be a little nervous until it's healed. The guy is just too important.

Give him the rest he needs now, if that will help him carry the weight of this team in September.

Chad

[OldXOhio]

Stubbs leading off. God make it stop.

[Reds Freak]

Stubbs leading off. God make it stop.

What? The winning?

[PuffyPig]

Stubbs leading off. God make it stop.

Vs. a left hander.

Why?

[Scrap Irony]

If the Reds win tonight, I'd rest him again tomorrow. Love the idea of Frazier playing 1B over Cairo, btw.

[mace]

Probably reading too much into it, but Frazier at first base makes me wonder if it's a way of phasing out Cairo. He's no longer needed at third. If they make a trade or two, they'll probably have to create room on the roster, and he's as likely a candidate as any.

[Kc61]

Probably reading too much into it, but Frazier at first base makes me wonder if it's a way of phasing out Cairo. He's no longer needed at third. If they make a trade or two, they'll probably have to create room on the roster, and he's as likely a candidate as any.

I think it's two separate issues.

With Rolen back, and Frazier's numbers so good, Reds have to find ways to get Todd into the lineup. He has versatility so for this season we'll probably see him play some first, some left field, mostly third base. Next season, maybe every day at third base.

Cairo, I think, is a different question. As you correctly said, if the Reds add players they will have to open up roster spots. Since Cairo has not had a good year, since his contract is up, since his defensive positions are covered, he's a candidate to be moved.

[Matt700wlw]

Votto is having minor knee surgery tomorrow

[Brutus]

Votto is having minor knee surgery tomorrow

Even though you included the word "minor," me thinks that won't stop the sky from falling here on RZ.

[OldXOhio]

Vs. a left hander.

Why?

Because he has no business at the top of the order. Period. I don't care if they're playing an intrasquad game.

[Brutus]

Because he has no business at the top of the order. Period. I don't care if they're playing an intrasquad game.

I've been pretty hard on Stubbs recently, as I'm personally ready to hand it over to Heisey until/unless another option comes along.

That said, it's worth noting that Stubbs' OBP against LHP for his career is a very respectable .345.

At that clip, it certainly justifies his batting leadoff against lefties.

[Big Klu]

Probably reading too much into it, but Frazier at first base makes me wonder if it's a way of phasing out Cairo. He's no longer needed at third. If they make a trade or two, they'll probably have to create room on the roster, and he's as likely a candidate as any.

There could be something to that. Frazier is versatile enough to handle 1B, which allows both he and Rolen to be in the lineup atthe same time when Votto is out.

If Ludwick returns next season, I could see the Reds working him out at 1B during Spring Training to add to the RH backup depth at 1B. Additionally, a 34-year-old power hitting OF could do worse than to add 1B to his resume.

[_Sir_Charles_]

Votto is having minor knee surgery tomorrow

Are you serious about this? And if so, where are you getting this from?

[RedlegJake]

Not only did he play in the AS game but he had to fly from SD to Cin then go to KC for the all-star game and then come back to Cincy. This is not a JR situation.

Not to mention entertaining family and friends, dozens upon dozens of interviews, galas and fetes, news meets, photo opps, etc. Players who go to the AS Game come back more tired than when they went. It's pretty draining and I'll bet he was on his feet for hours at a time before and after
the game and most of the three days. I don't care if they give him a couple days to just completely rest his knee f that's what it takes t make sure he's completely healthy for the dog days - that's when teams make it or die.

[Matt700wlw]

Are you serious about this? And if so, where are you getting this from?

Bob Hertzel, WV times tweeted it.

[Crumbley]

It was a mistake going to Kansas City.

[redsfaninbsg]

It was a mistake going to Kansas City.

This

[reds44]

https://twitter.com/bhertzel

Bob Hertzel ‏@bhertzel
Reds' Joey Votto undergoes minor knee surgery Tuesday

[DGullett35]

Dusty and everyone else including Joey must be downplaying this. Tonight couldn't be just a scheduled off-day. he probably has tonight off so the swelling in the knee isn't so bad for surgery tomm. Also if hes having surgery he def. won't play tomm night. This scares me. Hope everything goes as planned and hes back before this series is over. Hes the one guy on this team we cannot go a long stretch without. I also checked around and Bob Hertzel is the only one reporting this that I could find. Another thing. If this is minor then why wouldnt he have just had the surgery during the break? the knee must be getting worse.

[kaldaniels]

Who is Bob Hertzel (rhetorical) and how did he scoop everyone else on this?

[reds44]

Who is Bob Hertzel (rhetorical) and how did he scoop everyone else on this?
It seems like a legit account and he's a legit writer, but I'm skeptical until somebody else confirms.

[kaldaniels]

It seems like a legit account and he's a legit writer, but I'm skeptical until somebody else confirms.

I have no reason to doubt him at this point but hard to believe Fay and the national guys got scooped by him. Awaiting more info...

[redsfaninbsg]

Assuming it has validity, if there is a time for it to happen this is it.

[reds1869]

As I said in another thread, There is no such thing as minor surgery for a star of his status. I'm glad, however, that he is getting it taken care of.

[Matt700wlw]

No confirmation from the Reds yet.

[Kc61]

Jason Hammel arthroscopy estimated to miss 3-4 weeks.

Giancarlo Stanton, estimated to miss 4-6 weeks.

[reds44]

Mark Sheldon ‏@m_sheldon
Re: Votto...saw the tweet and I'm looking into it. Reds/Baker have not said anything #reds

[Matt700wlw]

Who is Bob Hertzel (rhetorical) and how did he scoop everyone else on this?

He has credibility...30+ year columnist.

[reds44]

Dallas Latos ‏@DallasLatos
I suspect #Reds fans will break Twitter in 5, 4, 3, 2...

oh jeeze

[edabbs44]

Now would be a fantastic time for Bruce to go on one of his unconscious streaks.

[reds44]

John Popovich WCPO ‏@Popo_WCPOSports
The Reds have confirmed that Joey Votto will be out about 2 weeks. He'll have surgery for a meniscus issue.

Not sure I trust this one either.

[chicoruiz]

Assuming he goes on the 15-day list, who would you bring up?

[reds44]

Assuming he goes on the 15-day list, who would you bring up?
Either Didi or H-Rod, probably H-Rod.

[REDSEER]

Assuming he goes on the 15-day list, who would you bring up?

Assuming Frazier gets most of the reps at 3B, I bring up Rodriguez to fill in some time at 3B, leaving Cairo and Valdez in their utility roles on the bench. We can't afford to bring more dead weight up.

[Kc61]

Either Didi or H-Rod, probably H-Rod.

Harris, Costanzo, or HRod.

[HokieRed]

Navarro.

[guttle11]

Are we assuming a DL trip? I mean, it's only rumored to be two weeks. That's three days in Dusty Roster time.

[Kc61]

Assuming Frazier gets most of the reps at 3B, I bring up Rodriguez to fill in some time at 3B, leaving Cairo and Valdez in their utility roles on the bench. We can't afford to bring more dead weight up.

Frazier will not get most of the reps at 3B.

If Votto is out, Frazier is your default first baseman.

[reds44]

Frazier will not get most of the reps at 3B.

If Votto is out, Frazier is your default first baseman.
Think that's what he meant.

[REDSEER]

Frazier will not get most of the reps at 3B.

If Votto is out, Frazier is your default first baseman.

Whoops. My mind thought 1B and my fingers typed 3B.

:laugh:

[reds44]

MLB Network says he's out 2 weeks.

Crap.

[Kc61]

Think that's what he meant.

Oh, sorry, didn't get the typo.

I think it will be a lefty or switcher who can play third and/or first.

Could be Navarro too if he plays first.

My guess is Harris.

Unless they want to give HRod a shot.

[chicoruiz]

Bet it's Harris, unless they freak out and add a pitcher...

[RedEye]

I'm really trying not to panic here.

[Kc61]

MLB Network says he's out 2 weeks.

Crap.

I have the opposite view. If Votto is out only two weeks, I'm happy.

My guess is it's optimistic.

[reds44]

If MLB Network is going off these bogus twitter reports I'm not going to be happy.

[kaldaniels]

Disappointed in the beat guys....Sheldon/Fay/etc....

[Red in Chicago]

Disappointed it wasn't resolved prior to All Star Game.

[Kc61]

Disappointed it wasn't resolved prior to All Star Game.

Agree. Although Votto did help last night with two hits against the Cards and made some good plays this past series.

The only thing that matters is the word "minor." Two weeks is nothing. Hope "minor" is accurate.

[reds44]

The fact ALL the local guys are saying the Reds haven't confirmed leads me to believe these reports are bogus.

[SirFelixCat]

FWIW, assuming Joey did it sliding into 2B (or was it 3B) and he's been ok to play on it, I am going to assume it's the same issue that I had while playing MSBL 2 years ago.

Assuming that's true, then this should be a very minor issue.

Let's hope. I'm not seeing the sky as falling fwiw.

[Reds Fanatic]

Yes the shame is if he would had the surgery before the break that would have saved 4 days off the time off

[lollipopcurve]

I think it's legit. If they put him on the 15-day DL, they better bring up HRod -- not Harris.

[kaldaniels]

I think it's legit. If they put him on the 15-day DL, they better bring up HRod -- not Harris.

I'd like that. Thom did not address the issue in the lead-in, FYI.

[Homer Bailey]

Crazy irresponsible, and very un-Votto like to have played in the All-Star game after hearing this news. He must have been initially given bad advice.

[reds44]

If the Reds had confirmed it the beat guys and the broadcast would be saying it.

I'm not saying he isn't going to have surgery, but I am saying the Reds haven't confirmed it as some people are claiming.

[kaldaniels]

Crazy irresponsible, and very un-Votto like to have played in the All-Star game after hearing this news. He must have been initially given bad advice.

I'm awaiting all the facts, but my knee is jerking and shouting "organizational fail".

[OesterPoster]

I'm awaiting all the facts, but my knee is jerking and shouting "organizational fail".

Shhhhh. Don't let Jim Edmonds hear that.

[edabbs44]

Crazy irresponsible, and very un-Votto like to have played in the All-Star game after hearing this news. He must have been initially given bad advice.

Couldn't the advice have been "You're gonna need surgery at some point, but you can see if you can play through it since you can't make it any worse"?

[reds44]

And didn't Votto just help the Reds sweep their main competition in the Central last night?

[reds44]

Fay: #Reds have confirmed nothing about Votto. He's not in the dugout. Told their are meeting now. Trainer Paul Lessard in not in dugout either.

That's not good lol

[kaldaniels]

7:10 and the word "Votto" has not been said

[Degenerate39]

He's probably at some fancy coffee house right now

[SirFelixCat]

$&^%*#&($(%&(


This now means he won't be coming to Denver. #@#@#@@!!

[kaldaniels]

He's probably at some fancy coffee house right now

If he cared about his body as much as the latest vanilla-hazelnut blend (cause he certainly isnt man enough to drink it black) we wouldn't be in this predicament.

[edabbs44]

He's probably at some fancy coffee house right now

They just tweeted this pic of Votto with Lessard.

http://a3.ec-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/126/92f700f9a955406bb1e8c6b61a060058/l.jpg

[Blitz Dorsey]

The Reds' medical staff is a joke. Kremchek is more concerned about being on TV and radio than he is doing his job. As much as I hate Edmonds, we should all take his comments about the Reds' medical staff to heart. They have a history of misdiagnosing players.

[OesterPoster]

Looked it up...he banged the knee hard while sliding into third on 6/29 against the Giants. CB Bucknor called him safe when he probably was out.

http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=96621&page=10

[Reds Fanatic]

The Reds' medical staff is a joke. Kremchek is more concerned about being on TV and radio than he is doing his job. As much as I hate Edmonds, we should all take his comments about the Reds' medical staff to heart. They have a history of misdiagnosing players.

Kremcheck was on that west coast trip too. I can't believe they did not do an MRI to see what possible damage was done to the knee

[reds44]

.....or they told him he could attempt to play through it because it wouldn't get any worse and he (or they) concluded he couldn't.

[Dom Heffner]

I'm reading where the Reds are saying out two weeks with minor meniscus issue.

[edabbs44]

Friggin Dusty. :)

[Dom Heffner]

Sorry if this has been posted:

http://www.rantsports.com/bringingheat/2012/07/16/mlb-rumors-joey-votto-and-his-mysterious-knee-surgery/?doing_wp_cron

[kaldaniels]

I keep harping this, but can the TV guys not say something like "we are hearing reports Votto is meeting with the medical staff"?

Thom simply said, "Votto gets the night off".

[reds44]

It's worse than reported.

Reds:
Votto to have surgery tomorrow to repair torn meniscus in his left knee, suffered on 6/29 at SF. Will miss 3-4 weeks. Roster moves tomorrow.

[REDSEER]

If I was into masked profanity, this would be the time.

Unreal. Hope Frazier can stay hot and Bruce gets hot.

[Homer Bailey]

Wow. Just wow.

[reds44]

That might be a season killer.

[reds44]

Must. Acquire. Bat. Soon.

[edabbs44]

That might be a season killer.

I wouldn't go that far...

[SirFelixCat]

That might be a season killer.

Huh?

The pitching has carried this team. Yeah, this sucks hard, obviously, but it's hardly a season killer imo. It's a few weeks.

[Reds Fanatic]

It's worse than reported.

Reds:
Votto to have surgery tomorrow to repair torn meniscus in his left knee, suffered on 6/29 at SF. Will miss 3-4 weeks. Roster moves tomorrow.

Ugh. We go from the season high point to the low point in less than 24 hours

[kbrake]

I'm about to have a panic attack. More mature and responsible people please feel free to talk me down.

[kaldaniels]

That might be a season killer.

If you believe in WAR, it probably costs the Reds 1 game.

I find that hard to believe myself, but consider Frazier will be in the lineup everyday for 3-4 weeks. If the pitching holds up, we should be able to ride this out.

[Blitz Dorsey]

That might be a season killer.

No it won't. A torn ACL would be a season killer. Torn meniscus is about as minor as it gets when it comes to knee surgeries. I bet he'll be back in 3 weeks max.

Kremchek is still a hack though. Amazing Votto was hurt in late June and they allowed him to play with a torn meniscus for nearly a month. Morons.

[reds44]

Huh?

The pitching has carried this team. Yeah, this sucks hard, obviously, but it's hardly a season killer imo. It's a few weeks.
It's an already offensive challenged team losing the best hitter in baseball. I don't think saying him possibly missing 25 some odd games.

[Homer Bailey]

That might be a season killer.

Eh, I'm upset, but I certainly wouldn't go that far. If Votto is around an 8-9 win player, he is really only costing the Reds maybe 1.5 WAR over a month, no?

[RedsManRick]

If Todd Frazier keeps hitting -- and if Dusty wasn't going to play him much over Rolen -- this isn't a huge deal. 1 month of Votto is 1-2 wins over replacement and Todd Frazier is much better than replacement.

[Homer Bailey]

I'm about to have a panic attack. More mature and responsible people please feel free to talk me down.

It's probably the easiest schedule stretch of the year. That help?

[Brutus]

It's worse than reported.

Reds:
Votto to have surgery tomorrow to repair torn meniscus in his left knee, suffered on 6/29 at SF. Will miss 3-4 weeks. Roster moves tomorrow.

It might not actually be worse. It's possible the Reds are just giving a conservative estimate publicly, but actually expect him back in two weeks.

[Blitz Dorsey]

It might not actually be worse. It's possible the Reds are just giving a conservative estimate publicly, but actually expect him back in two weeks.

And bingo was his name-o.

[REDSEER]

We really need Rolen over the next few weeks. We can't have him hitting .200 while Votto is out.

[WildcatFan]

Just cleared my Kroger out of bottled water and D batteries and spent an hour and a half picking the perfect get-well card.

I tear up every time he fouls a ball off his foot.

[Red in Chicago]

My only problem is that he obviously wasn't the same since the injury. They didn't rest him much, then he goes to KC. Now four games after the break they announce this.

3-4 weeks in Reds speak means 5-6

[reds44]

It's probably the easiest schedule stretch of the year. That help?
For sure. I also think putting numbers into a computer and saying it's only going to cost the Reds a win or win and a half is a little naive too, though.

[Homer Bailey]

For sure. I also think putting numbers into a computer and saying it's only going to cost the Reds a win or win and a half is a little naive too, though.

You'd be hard pressed to mathematically convince me otherwise.

[kaldaniels]

If Todd Frazier keeps hitting -- and if Dusty wasn't going to play him much over Rolen -- this isn't a huge deal. 1 month of Votto is 1-2 wins over replacement and Todd Frazier is much better than replacement.

Exactly my thoughts. Votto WAR - Frazier WAR over 3-4 weeks is probably closer to 1 rather than 2 wins.

The concern is who plays 3rd base? I hope HRod comes up and is respectable...that's my best case. That's what will make or break this stretch.

[reds44]

You'd be hard pressed to mathematically convince me otherwise.
I'm not even going to attempt to lol. Just a difference of thinking.

[reds44]

“Joey Votto met with the medical staff this evening and has been diagnosed with a torn meniscus in his left knee. He is going to have arthroscopic surgery tomorrow and should miss 3-4 weeks. Joey is very comfortable with the decision and is eager to return to the lineup.”

Votto said, “It is in my best interest and in the best interest of the team to do it now so that I can be healthy during the last two months of the pennant race.”

[kaldaniels]

I'm not even going to attempt to lol. Just a difference of thinking.

It could cost the Reds 0 games. It could cost them 5 games. I'd say that is all within the realm of possibility.

But odds favor it costing the Reds 1-2 games, and I am more than happy to live with that.

[Tom Servo]

I don't want to live on this planet anymore. :(

[kaldaniels]

Votto said, “It is in my best interest and in the best interest of the team to do it now so that I can be healthy during the last two months of the pennant race.”

Sounds like something someone would say with an off-camera gun pointed at his head.

[reds44]

It could cost the Reds 0 games. It could cost them 5 games. I'd say that is all within the realm of possibility.

But odds favor it costing the Reds 1-2 games, and I am more than happy to live with that.
For sure. It's completely possible the Reds step up and play fine through this stretch.

I'm afraid the offense could turn into the offense we saw through the first 12 games of the season without Votto, though.

[Mario-Rijo]

Could be the best thing for this organization that the Brass gets to put a Vottoless team on the field for awhile and get a feel for just how much more they need to do to get this thing right. The only thing I don't like about it is him waiting thru the AS game and Cards series before they shut him down, you know they knew come on.

[edabbs44]

Exactly my thoughts. Votto WAR - Frazier WAR over 3-4 weeks is probably closer to 1 rather than 2 wins.

Thats assuming that Frazier continues at his pace.

[Brutus]

To be honest, I'm relieved enough to say my biggest fear is that Votto will now not be able to set the MLB doubles record.

I'm really not fretting the injury. If it's only a few weeks, I believe Frazier playing everyday will mitigate the loss in the short term.

[kaldaniels]

Thats assuming that Frazier continues at his pace.

True, Todd could play even better. :beerme:

[hebroncougar]

Kremchek should lose his job over this, and I'm being very serious. You don't make mistakes with a $250 million player.






Sent from my Desire HD using Tapatalk 2

[kaldaniels]

Medical guys...

Is there any chance Doc Hollywood goes in and finds a torn ACL or anything...or are things like that always caught on the MRI?

[REDSEER]

FWIW, no Harris in the Louisville lineup tonight and no one has been taken out yet. I'm crossing my fingers for Harris to replace HRod in the lineup soon.

[Mario-Rijo]

To be honest, I'm relieved enough to say my biggest fear is that Votto will now not be able to set the MLB doubles record.

I'm really not fretting the injury. If it's only a few weeks, I believe Frazier playing everyday will mitigate the loss in the short term.

Yeah that is a bummer!!

[Cedric]

Kremcheck should be fired over this.

[edabbs44]

Kremcheck should be fired over this.

Why?

[reds44]

It's still possible the Reds said he could play through it and wouldn't make it any worse. We have no idea what the conversation was. I kind of doubt the Reds went in today and randomly found out he tore something though.

[Reds Fanatic]

FWIW, no Harris in the Louisville lineup tonight and no one has been taken out yet. I'm crossing my fingers for Harris to replace HRod in the lineup soon.

More than likely Harris is on his way to Cincinnati. I hope I am wrong but that is what I expect

[wheels]

This scenario could be a blessing in disguise.

It could prove as a jolt to awaken the Reds brass to go get another hitter.

Oh, and they now have exactly one lefty hitter on the 25 man. That means we get to see LOTS of Willie Harris for the next month.

Please, Walt....Do something.

[Cedric]

Why?

An emotional reaction and wanting to blame someone.

[paintmered]

This is what I get this morning for thinking to myself that the Reds have been luckily healthy so far this season.

[mbgrayson]

Kremcheck should be fired over this.

I wonder what is involved in diagnosing a torn meniscus? An MRI? Given Joey's knee issues since San Fran, why wouldn't Kremcheck have ordered an MRI just to be safe, and done so much sooner....

[reds44]

In fact, in the release they say when the injury occurs. I would imagine that's exactly what happened.

[MikeS21]

Had the Reds DL's Votto two weeks ago, the Reds would probably be eight games out of first place by now.

Despite what posters are saying about Kremcheck, he is still one of the top orthopedic surgeons in the entire country, and MANY sports franchises send their athletes to Kremcheck for surgery.

[Ghosts of 1990]

Have to get another bat now. It's negligent to expect the current roster to make it through unscathed. If things remain unchanged this team will need to win the division late september by a squeak. This is crushing.

[kaldaniels]

Had the Reds DL's Votto two weeks ago, the Reds would probably be eight games out of first place by now.

Despite what posters are saying about Kremcheck, he is still one of the top orthopedic surgeons in the entire country, and MANY sports franchises send their athletes to Kremcheck for surgery.

He was in the NL dugout during the All Star game.

[mbgrayson]

He [Kremcheck]was in the NL dugout during the All Star game.

But was he checking on Joey's knee while he was there??? Lol.

[wheels]

Maybe Votto wanted to tough it out. He just signed a big contract, they may have told him he wasn't risking further damage, he's Canadian....

I don't think this is all on Kremcheck. Not this time, anyway.

[Will M]

Medical guys...

Is there any chance Doc Hollywood goes in and finds a torn ACL or anything...or are things like that always caught on the MRI?

yes

An MRI is done with the joint at rest in one position. So things can be missed that would show up with the knee under stress. Thinks about what the knee would look like if the MRI was done with Joey extending the knee against 100 lbs of pressure or twisting the knee with his foot planted. That being said big problems should show up on a knee MRI.

From what I have read 'sports hernias' are a bit of a different animal & are tough to get a good diagnosis just via the MRI. see the Tulo situation a few weeks ago.

[powersackers]

NL MVP chance gone?

[PuffyPig]

Had the Reds DL's Votto two weeks ago, the Reds would probably be eight games out of first place by now.



We would have lost 9 additional games during the last two weeks?

In the last 2 weeks we've played 10 games, winning 7 of them.

So, even if we had lost those seven games, we'd be six out. And we wouldn't have lost them all.

[kbrake]

NL MVP chance gone?

Not if the team really struggles without him and then wins the division once he comes back.

[_Sir_Charles_]

Kremcheck probably just told Joey to rub some dirt on it and get back in there. :O)

[lollipopcurve]

Obviously, it's bad news. Still, a little adversity can bring out the best in some. Let's see what they're made of.

[757690]

For those upset that Votto possibly could have put on the disabled list right after the injury, The Reds were 7-3 in games after it, and Votto had a .410 OBP in during that stretch. Not sure it really mattered when he won't on the DL.

[mattfeet]

This will show us a lot about Jay Bruce.

[_Sir_Charles_]

NL MVP chance gone?

Really? We're talking about a few weeks. I think this is rather quickly getting overblown.

[Ghosts of 1990]

This will show us a lot about Jay Bruce.

I agree.

While a lot of people will say "Bruce is the least of our concerns" right now, if he has a month like May 2011 or April 2012 then the next 3-4 weeks will go on without missing a beat with the way we have been pitching.

I would do ANYTHING for him to get torrid hot.

[Far East]

More than likely Harris is on his way to Cincinnati. I hope I am wrong but that is what I expect
I'd rather see Xavier Paul, not for infield but for another lefty bat:
in 2102 AAA:
.323 /.382 /.528 /.911

He could replace Heisey, Stubbs, or Ludwick against tough RH pitching.

[Kc61]

Reds will be fine. Votto will be fine. Every team has injuries. Dodgers just went all that time without Kemp, then Ethier. Marlins just lost Stanton.

Main thing is that this is not major surgery. It's about a month, arthroscopy.

It may cause the Reds to move more intensively to acquire a bat.

Hopefully the Reds will make wise decisions about replacing Joey and about any possible deal. Team obviously needs lefty hitters.

[mbgrayson]

Had the Reds DL's Votto two weeks ago, the Reds would probably be eight games out of first place by now.


I really wonder about this. Had he had the sugery sooner, some of the DL time would have been over the All Star break. That could have reduced the number of games missed.

[Always Red]

Really? We're talking about a few weeks. I think this is rather quickly getting overblown.

You mean we don't get to hang Doc Kremchek at high noon on Fountain Square? :eek:

And, if he's so inept and constantly misdiagnosing everybody, why are Votto and the Reds allowing him to do surgery on the Quarter Billion Dollar Man?

[Blitz Dorsey]

Kremchek should lose his job over this, and I'm being very serious. You don't make mistakes with a $250 million player.

I agree. You know how many competent surgeons would kill to be the Reds medical director? Instead, we're stuck with Kremchek.

During one of his many media appearances, did anyone ever ask him about Edmonds' comments? The guy is a complete hack. If this were an isolated incident, I wouldn't think anything of it. But dating back to the Griffey days, I've noticed a pattern with Kremchek. He's beyond bad. It would take A LOT for a player like Edmonds to come out and blast a team's medical staff. (And yes, I hate Edmonds too.) Goes to show just how awful Kremchek really is.

Allowing our $250-million player to risk further injury by playing with a torn meniscus for nearly a month. Amazing. I'm sure the spin will be that it wasn't torn at first but got progressively worse. I call BS. Kremchek missed this one. Again.

[powersackers]

Really? We're talking about a few weeks. I think this is rather quickly getting overblown.

Yes really. Guess you answered my question in your own unique way.

[Kc61]

I don't understand the blame game thing.

There's no indication Votto will miss more time because of the timing of surgery.

The Reds just won six consecutive games with Votto playing.

All teams have injuries. It seems Joey will be okay pretty soon, that's the main thing.

No need for a lot of what ifs. No need for blame. It happens, the Reds will be ok.

[Blitz Dorsey]

I don't understand the blame game thing.

There's no indication Votto will miss more time because of the timing of surgery.

The Reds just won six consecutive games with Votto playing.

All teams have injuries. It seems Joey will be okay pretty soon, that's the main thing.

No need for a lot of what ifs. No need for blame. It happens, the Reds will be ok.

Votto clearly wasn't himself since the knee injury in late June. Not even close to the regular Joey Votto. He likely tore his meniscus on the slide to third. The team's medical director did nothing for nearly a month. How does the most-valuable player on the team hurt his knee, gets the knee checked out and the medical director not find a torn muscle near said knee?

Sorry, I'm in blame mode. We're lucky Votto didn't get hurt worse after playing injured the last 3 weeks. This will likely be very minor in the grand scheme. At the same time, Tim Kremchek needs to be held responsible when he makes mistakes. Votto should have had the surgery weeks ago. I don't think that's even up for debate at this point.

[kaldaniels]

I don't understand the blame game thing.

There's no indication Votto will miss more time because of the timing of surgery.

The Reds just won six consecutive games with Votto playing.

All teams have injuries. It seems Joey will be okay pretty soon, that's the main thing.

No need for a lot of what ifs. No need for blame. It happens, the Reds will be ok.

It's quite simple. Votto is gonna miss at least 3 weeks. Someone has to pay.

[Matt700wlw]

Reds say injury occurred on July 29th at SF.

Kremcheck saw Votto in L.A. according to Fay

[Blitz Dorsey]

Reds say injury occurred on July 29th at SF.

Kremcheck saw Votto in L.A. according to Fay

Can we start secretly sending Votto to a real doctor? I mean, Kremchek can still see guys like Kristopher Negron, but we need higher standards for Joey Votto.

[_Sir_Charles_]

Yes really. Guess you answered my question in your own unique way.

Okay, a direct answer...no, this won't affect Joey's MVP chances. If he comes back and still performs at a Votto-like level...and then we win the division, his odds are still extremely good.

[nate]

Votto clearly wasn't himself since the knee injury in late June. Not even close to the regular Joey Votto. He likely tore his meniscus on the slide to third. The team's medical director did nothing for nearly a month. How does the most-valuable player on the team hurt his knee, gets the knee checked out and the medical director not find a torn muscle near said knee?

Sorry, I'm in blame mode. We're lucky Votto didn't get hurt worse after playing injured the last 3 weeks. This will likely be very minor in the grand scheme. At the same time, Tim Kremchek needs to be held responsible when he makes mistakes. Votto should have had the surgery weeks ago. I don't think that's even up for debate at this point.

What if the best diagnosis is "let's wait and see if it heals by itself?"

I don't know if it is but it seems plausible.

[757690]

Unless we are doctors, we have no business second guessing the Reds medical team. Lots of logical explanations as to why they let Votto play, but are now electing surgery.

[BuckeyeRedleg]

I'm just a regular guy, but when I tweaked my left knee playing hoops one day I went to the Dr. and found out I has a torn meniscus within a week.

So it takes 18 days to find out that the $250M man has one? Really?

Wow.

[Roy Tucker]

My guess is that the Reds medical staff did know the extent of the injury. But they gave Votto the option of trying to play through the pain. Votto gave it his best shot, but it was plainly obvious this wasn't the same Votto pre-6/29 and it wasn't going to get any better. So they huddled and said "let's get it over with and operate".

20-20 hindsight says they should have done this pre-AS break, but you can't change the past, you can only change the future. They gave it a shot and it didn't work. Let's move on. This is about as decent as a stretch as it can be to be Votto-less.

[757690]

I'm just a regular guy, but when I tweaked my left knee playing hoops one day I went to the Dr. and found out I has a torn meniscus within a week.

So it takes 18 days to find out that the $250M man has one? Really?

Wow.

We have no idea when they discovered he had one.

[westofyou]

I don't understand the blame game thing.

There's no indication Votto will miss more time because of the timing of surgery.

The Reds just won six consecutive games with Votto playing.

All teams have injuries. It seems Joey will be okay pretty soon, that's the main thing.

No need for a lot of what ifs. No need for blame. It happens, the Reds will be ok.

Medical data is not perfect, people are quick to assume that perfection is demanded all the time in an imperfect world.

Demanding retribution for this is posse mentality, quick and without any thought other than emotional response to a crappy situation... pitchforks and torches, pitchforks and torches!

[Blitz Dorsey]

I'm just a regular guy, but when I tweaked my left knee playing hoops one day I went to the Dr. and found out I has a torn meniscus within a week.

So it takes 18 days to find out that the $250M man has one? Really?

Wow.

It's amazing. I can't believe all the excuse-making for Kremchek on here. Yes, Votto's injury is minor. The point is that the team's medical director should have noticed a torn meniscus when examining the team's franchise player a few days after he injured the knee. It's astonishing.

Don't worry, it's all right to criticize doctors. They're not perfect and they're all different. Some are great, some are good, some are average and some are bad.

[Always Red]

Votto clearly wasn't himself since the knee injury in late June. Not even close to the regular Joey Votto. He likely tore his meniscus on the slide to third. The team's medical director did nothing for nearly a month. How does the most-valuable player on the team hurt his knee, gets the knee checked out and the medical director not find a torn muscle near said knee?

Sorry, I'm in blame mode. We're lucky Votto didn't get hurt worse after playing injured the last 3 weeks. This will likely be very minor in the grand scheme. At the same time, Tim Kremchek needs to be held responsible when he makes mistakes. Votto should have had the surgery weeks ago. I don't think that's even up for debate at this point.

Sure it is, Dr. Blitz. You know nearly none of the facts of this case.

Had he operated on a knee that didn't exactly quite need it, then he would have been a hack who just operates for money.

I get it, Doc Hollywood is an easy target, so let's just tee off on him.

Funny thing about this site- Kremchek is considered one of the finest orthpedists in the country when it comes to sports injuries, and teams (not only baseball teams) from all over the country send patient to him. What a freakin quack! No love here.

Just like the Dusty bashing on this site, this makes no sense to me at all. None.

People get hurt playing baseball. It happens. All the time. Things feel ok, you play some more, and play well. Then it starts to hurt some more, you sit out, get scanned and find an injury. Hey. Let's blame the doc! Kremchek is a hard guy to like, but he is a veritable expert at what he does. Not one single person here ever gives him credit for all the players he has fixed and rehabbed. No one.

Such is the Internet.

[Blitz Dorsey]

We have no idea when they discovered he had one.

We know when they discovered he had one. That happened today.

[Blitz Dorsey]

Sure it is, Dr. Blitz. You know nearly none of the facts of this case.

Had he operated on a knee that didn't exactly quite need it, then he would have been a hack who just operates for money.

I get it, Doc Hollywood is an easy target, so let's just tee off on him.

Funny thing about this site- Kremchek is considered one of the finest orthpedists in the country when it comes to sports injuries, and teams (not only baseball teams) from all over the country send patient to him. What a freakin quack! No love here.

Just like the Dusty bashing on this site, this makes no sense to me at all. None.

People get hurt playing baseball. It happens. All the time. Things feel ok, you play some more, and play well. Then it starts to hurt some more, you sit out, get scanned and find an injury. Hey. Let's blame the doc! Kremchek is a hard guy to like, but he is a veritable expert at what he does. Not one single person here ever gives him credit for all the players he has fixed and rehabbed. No one.

Such is the Internet.

Riiiiight, I don't know "any of the facts." Good one.

Here's two important facts for you: Votto was injured June 29 and it took Kremchek until July 16 to learn of the tear. Unless you believe Votto suffered the tear recently, it's obvious Kremchek erred and the surgery should have been done weeks ago.

[edabbs44]

We know when they discovered he had one. That happened today.

How do you know that it was discovered today?

[Blitz Dorsey]

How do you know that it was discovered today?

Do you think they would have let him play last night if they knew he had a torn meniscus?

[Gallen5862]

Should the Reds call up Beau Mills?

[Roy Tucker]

Do you think they would have let him play last night if they knew he had a torn meniscus?

Yeah. Guys play with them a lot. Sometimes you can play through the pain, sometimes you can't.

[edabbs44]

Do you think they would have let him play last night if they knew he had a torn meniscus?

A torn meniscus is not that serious.

[_Sir_Charles_]

Riiiiight, I don't know "any of the facts." Good one.

Here's two important facts for you: Votto was injured June 29 and it took Kremchek until July 16 to learn of the tear. Unless you believe Votto suffered the tear recently, it's obvious Kremchek erred and the surgery should have been done weeks ago.

You're assuming they learned of the tear today. If it's a partial tear, it can be one of those things you can try to play through. Or it could've worsened after the initial injury and resulted in a tear. So no, it's not OBVIOUS about anything.

[kaldaniels]

I'm on record saying my knee jerk reaction is that this was an organizational fail. But after thought, I really don't know he facts (Fay had a strange quote by Joey about whether he had an MRI in CA) and I'm not a doctor. So who am I to judge.

I do wish if there was a choice, they had decided to err in favor of Joey missing time over the break rather than now...but again, who knows.

[757690]

Do you think they would have let him play last night if they knew he had a torn meniscus?

I don't know. I'm not a doctor. I don't even know what a meniscus is.

And even if it was discovered today, maybe he tore it while playing through the injury. There is much more that we don't know than we do at this point. Plenty of time to make accusations once we finally know the whole story.

[Always Red]

Riiiiight, I don't know "any of the facts." Good one.

Here's two important facts for you: Votto was injured June 29 and it took Kremchek until July 16 to learn of the tear. Unless you believe Votto suffered the tear recently, it's obvious Kremchek erred and the surgery should have been done weeks ago.

And you have no idea at all what kind of exams, imaging or conversations went on during that time, Mr. Internet Doc. You have no idea if things got worse or better or what during that time. Do you?

You know 2 facts, and you guessed and extrapolated all the rest. Good science there! :thumbup:

I don't "believe" anything about when Votto suffered the tear in his meniscus. That's my exact point. You can't go by "belief" and what you think you know, if you really don't know.

Why on earth do you think Kremchek "just learned of the tear" today? That's what I find comical, to be honest.

[Roy Tucker]

http://www.medicinenet.com/torn_meniscus/article.htm

[kaldaniels]

This is one of those times where one can acknowledge their shortcomings on a subject or dig in further...

What'll it be.

[edabbs44]

I wonder if the timing tells us anything also. Is it a coincidence that he sticks it out through the WC and Stl and then, with a soft spot in the schedule coming up, he elects for surgery?

[RedsfaninMT]

I have a slightly torn meniscus right now...have for about a year. I am choosing to rehab it through physical therapy after consulting with an orthopedic surgeon here in Montana. It's getting better, but not great. I could absolutely see where the Reds might've wanted to see how therapy went, then decided last night it wasn't getting better.

[KittyDuran]

I lay the blame on everyone involved including Joey... The Reds FO didn't want opposing teams know that their best hitter was injured/nor the fans, Joey didn't want to look like a wuss, and the medical staff probably didn't really know the extent and might not until they take a look inside tomorrow (and yes, it might be worse!).

Also, and I'm going to take some flames on this but... Joey not wanting to look like a wuss and all, but also the all-star game was a source of pride being named a starter (remember last year?) and I'm sure he's getting monetary incentives for that as well. If he would have to bail out because of an injury or surgery the money would still be there but...:fineprint:

If there is a silver lining to this is that the team as a whole should really step up their game. :pray:

[RedsfaninMT]

I lay the blame on everyone involved including Joey... The Reds FO didn't want opposing teams know that their best hitter was injured/nor the fans, Joey didn't want to look like a wuss, and the medical staff probably didn't really know the extent and might not until they take a look inside tomorrow (and yes, it might be worse!).

Also, and I'm going to take some flames on this but... Joey not wanting to look like a wuss and all, but also the all-star game was a source of pride being named a starter (remember last year?) and I'm sure he's getting monetary incentives for that as well. If he would have to bail out because of an injury or surgery the money would still be there but...:fineprint:

If there is a silver lining to this is that the team as a whole should really step up their game. :pray:

I'm not buying that $ paid to Votto for the all star game amounts to a hill of beans relative to his contract. He still was named the starter, whether he played or not didn't change that.

[kaldaniels]

Are we really throwing out the accusation that Joey chose this course of treatment to collect an ASG bonus?

[KittyDuran]

I'm not buying that $ paid to Votto for the all star game amounts to a hill of beans relative to his contract. He still was named the starter, whether he played or not didn't change that.Neither am I... (said I was going to get "flamed")- but playing devil's advocate on this - I did mention a source of pride...

[Kc61]

I lay the blame on everyone involved including Joey... The Reds FO didn't want opposing teams know that their best hitter was injured/nor the fans, Joey didn't want to look like a wuss, and the medical staff probably didn't really know the extent and might not until they take a look inside tomorrow (and yes, it might be worse!).

Also, and I'm going to take some flames on this but... Joey not wanting to look like a wuss and all, but also the all-star game was a source of pride being named a starter (remember last year?) and I'm sure he's getting monetary incentives for that as well. If he would have to bail out because of an injury or surgery the money would still be there but...:fineprint:

If there is a silver lining to this is that the team as a whole should really step up their game. :pray:

I do have the feeling that Joey wanted to start the All Star Game, perhaps he felt an obligation to do so. Doubt money was the issue, really a matter of pride and professionalism.

You know, all season I've been yelling about the lack of left handed hitting. Now, the team will probably bring up a lefty bench player but the starting lineup has only one, Bruce.

Tonight, Reds are facing a lefty but they will find themselves soon facing righty after righty with only Bruce and some bench player from the left side. I really don't understand how the FO thought they could get away with such a lack of balance.

I'm hopeful that the Reds' offense will be reasonably productive while Joey is out. While I don't blame anyone for his injury, the nature of this offense is squarely on the FO.

[KittyDuran]

Are we really throwing out the accusation that Joey chose this course of treatment to collect an ASG bonus?LOVE IT! NO... playing devil's advocate- only because the blame (mostly from BD) going towards Dr.K and the medical staff. Lots of blame to go around.

[Brutus]

I'm just a regular guy, but when I tweaked my left knee playing hoops one day I went to the Dr. and found out I has a torn meniscus within a week.

So it takes 18 days to find out that the $250M man has one? Really?

Wow.

Everyone is (falsely) assuming the only option is that it took 18 days to find out.

As Nate said, has anyone else considered that perhaps they knew about it shortly after the injury and decided to let it play out and see if he could play with the injury? It wouldn't be the first time an athlete has elected to play with a torn meniscus, to my knowledge.

[KittyDuran]

Everyone is (falsely) assuming the only option is that it took 18 days to find out.

As Nate said, has anyone else considered that perhaps they knew about it shortly after the injury and decided to let it play out and see if he could play with the injury? It wouldn't be the first time an athlete has elected to play with a torn meniscus, to my knowledge.Didn't someone also mention therapy as well? He might have been in full treatment mode all this time...

[westofyou]

Not sure Votto has a AS bonus, if he did it would be for being named, which he was... I don'y know of an "appearance" clause.

He does have this noted in his contract

*award bonuses, including $50,000 for Gold Glove

[Brutus]

Didn't someone also mention therapy as well? He might have been in full treatment mode all this time...

It definitely would not surprise me. As the WebMD link mentioned, there are many times where a meniscus tear does not require surgery. It's very plausible (perhaps likely) they first opted for treatment and when he didn't respond well to the therapy, they opted to go for the surgery.

[KittyDuran]

Not sure Votto has a AS bonus, if he did it would be for being named, which he was... I don'y know of an "appearance" clause.

He does have this noted in his contract

*award bonuses, including $50,000 for Gold GloveAs RedsfaninMT mentioned it probably was minimal but I would think that most players have something in their contracts. It always seems to come up when players have to be replaced right before the game.

[Gallen5862]

Would Beau Mills be a good call up?

[Caveat Emperor]

Two thoughts:

1. I can't remember the last time someone was announced as being out "3-4 weeks" and came back in less than 6-8.

2. Given #1, season is probably done for the Reds.

[pedro]

Two thoughts:

1. I can't remember the last time someone was announced as being out "3-4 weeks" and came back in less than 6-8.

2. Given #1, season is probably done for the Reds.

Matt Holiday last year IIRC

[jojo]

Crudsers.....

[Homer Bailey]

Two thoughts:

1. I can't remember the last time someone was announced as being out "3-4 weeks" and came back in less than 6-8.

2. Given #1, season is probably done for the Reds.

Hilarious.

[KittyDuran]

Two thoughts:

1. I can't remember the last time someone was announced as being out "3-4 weeks" and came back in less than 6-8.

2. Given #1, season is probably done for the Reds.Crap! and here I shelled out over $1,500 on season tickets - worthless! ;)

[Blitz Dorsey]

You're assuming they learned of the tear today. If it's a partial tear, it can be one of those things you can try to play through. Or it could've worsened after the initial injury and resulted in a tear. So no, it's not OBVIOUS about anything.

Hence the "unless you believe Votto suffered the tear recently" part of my post. I happen to believe he suffered the tear when he slid into third base against the Giants on June 29. I would say there's about a 95 percent chance (or better) that's the case.

[Caveat Emperor]

Hilarious.

If Joey Votto is out 4-6 weeks, I don't believe the Reds have the offense to play .500 baseball.

Just my opinion. This offense isn't good enough to cover his loss.

[jojo]

Crap! and here I shelled out over $1,500 on season tickets - worthless! ;)

BAH!

[Blitz Dorsey]

And you have no idea at all what kind of exams, imaging or conversations went on during that time, Mr. Internet Doc. You have no idea if things got worse or better or what during that time. Do you?

You know 2 facts, and you guessed and extrapolated all the rest. Good science there! :thumbup:

I don't "believe" anything about when Votto suffered the tear in his meniscus. That's my exact point. You can't go by "belief" and what you think you know, if you really don't know.

Why on earth do you think Kremchek "just learned of the tear" today? That's what I find comical, to be honest.

Likewise, I find it comical that you think Votto wasn't playing with a torn meniscus the entire time. Like I said earlier in the thread (and many others have said) a torn meniscus is as minor as it gets when it comes to knee surgeries. However, the point is that it's very likely Kremchek failed in terms of finding the tear when examining Joey in LA (a few days after the injury).

Hey, we can agree to disagree. It's all good on my end. You think it's "comical" that I think Votto in fact suffered the tear when he slid into third in San Fran. I think your stance is comical. Maybe we should do a stand-up act together.

:beerme:

[edabbs44]

Two thoughts:

1. I can't remember the last time someone was announced as being out "3-4 weeks" and came back in less than 6-8.

2. Given #1, season is probably done for the Reds.

Geovany Soto, earlier this year with a...wait for it...meniscus tear.

[westofyou]

http://espn.go.com/blog/sweetspot/post/_/id/26955/reds-shouldnt-panic-over-votto-surgery

If there's a silver lining for the Reds, it comes at a soft spot in their schedule: Including Monday's game against Arizona, 24 of their next 27 games are against teams currently with losing records.

[Blitz Dorsey]

For those thinking 3-4 weeks is "more like 6-8 weeks" I disagree. I think "3-4 weeks" is a conservative estimate.

Running backs suffer torn meniscus and are back in 2 weeks. Maurice Clarett in 2002 comes to mind immediately. There's tons of NFL examples too. So, if football RBs come back on average in 2-3 weeks from the injury, I have no question a baseball first baseman can too.

[LoganBuck]

If this was a football player he would be back in 2-3 weeks given the knowledge we have of the situation. Didn't one of the UC post guys play basketball 7 days post surgery a few years back?

My guess is that he is back in the first week of August.

[BuckeyeRedleg]

Everyone is (falsely) assuming the only option is that it took 18 days to find out.

As Nate said, has anyone else considered that perhaps they knew about it shortly after the injury and decided to let it play out and see if he could play with the injury? It wouldn't be the first time an athlete has elected to play with a torn meniscus, to my knowledge.

If this is the case then it's a failure on everyone (Votto included) for not taking advantage of the 4-day break during the All Star week and resting the knee.

So either way, there is some fault.

If the excuse is they just found out it was damaged, I'm sorry there is no excuse to be just finding that out with the money they have invested in him. If they already knew from the week it happened, he should have been resting last week.

[Always Red]

Likewise, I find it comical that you think Votto wasn't playing with a torn meniscus the entire time. Like I said earlier in the thread (and many others have said) a torn meniscus is as minor as it gets when it comes to knee surgeries. However, the point is that it's very likely Kremchek failed in terms of finding the tear when examining Joey in LA (a few days after the injury).

Hey, we can agree to disagree. It's all good on my end. You think it's "comical" that I think Votto in fact suffered the tear when he slid into third in San Fran. I think your stance is comical. Maybe we should do a stand-up act together.

:beerme:

I simply do not know, Blitz, and neither do you.

Your forensic review of the case, with both facts that you have assembled, can tell you nothing other than that Votto messed his knee up sliding, and he will have surgery tomorrow. None of us know any other facts of this case.

In spite of all the posts stating how many players will often perform on a meniscus tear, not have it repaired at all, or have it repaired in the offseason, you have determined that Kremchek is an idiot and is incompetent.

He might be an idiot, but he is not incompetent.

So be it. :beerme:

[LoganBuck]

For those thinking 3-4 weeks is "more like 6-8 weeks" I disagree. I think "3-4 weeks" is a conservative estimate.

Running backs suffer torn meniscus and are back in 2 weeks. Maurice Clarett in 2002 comes to mind immediately. There's tons of NFL examples too. So, if football RBs come back on average in 2-3 weeks from the injury, I have no question a baseball first baseman can too.

You posted this while I was typing mine. Yep lots of times.

[Blitz Dorsey]

I simply do not know, Blitz, and neither do you.

Your forensic review of the case, with both facts that you have assembled, can tell you nothing other than that Votto messed his knee up sliding, and he will have surgery tomorrow. None of us know any other facts of this case.

In spite of all the posts stating how many players will often perform on a meniscus tear, not have it repaired at all, or have it repaired in the offseason, you have determined that Kremchek is an idiot and is incompetent.

He might be an idiot, but he is not incompetent.

So be it. :beerme:

Let me ask you this: What you do make of Edmonds' comments? This on top of all the other issues Kremchek has had over the years. I know we don't like Edmonds on here, but do we really think he would lie about that? He blasted Kremchek to shreds. Can't imagine an MLB player doing that unless he was speaking the truth.

Also, it makes me sick to think the Cardinals have a much-better medical staff compared to the Reds.

[pedro]

Too bad Andy Griffith passed away. If anybody could get Kremcheck to confess his guilt (if, in fact, he is "guilty") it would surely be Matlock.

[FlightRick]

I don't have a horse in this race, but I like to be a stickler about what is fact and what is faith. In this case, I don't understand why two people would still be arguing about when Votto got injured: the Reds themselves say it happened sliding into 3rd in that game in San Fran.

Done and done.

Also: June 29 isn't "a month ago" (to those insisting on rounding up). It's barely 2 weeks ago. Hyperbole (whether out of ignorance or out of willful desire to mislead) will get you nowhere with me!!!

You're welcome.


Rick

[Always Red]

Let me ask you this: What you do make of Edmonds' comments? This on top of all the other issues Kremchek has had over the years. I know we don't like Edmonds on here, but do we really think he would lie about that? He blasted Kremchek to shreds. Can't imagine an MLB player doing that unless he was speaking the truth.

Also, it makes me sick to think the Cardinals have a much-better medical staff compared to the Reds.

We hate everything about Jim Edmonds here except when he says something about the Reds medical staff?

I get it, you think Kremchek is totally incompetent. Jim Edmonds agrees with you. The rest of MLB apparently disagrees with you, they keep sending ballplayers to him.

I wonder who is doing Vottos surgery tomorrow? Why would Votto let a complete hack butcher his knee? Joey Votto knows Jim Edmonds, he played with him. I wonder why Joey doesn't believe Jim Edmonds?

Joey Votto can go to any orthopedic surgeon in the world that he wants to. We'll find out tomorrow who he chose to have do his knee.

Maybe Votto will choose to have someone else do his surgery, and then you will be able to convince yourself that you know all the facts, Blitz. Fact is, medical care is complex, inexact, and as much an art as it is a science. I know; I am in the medical field. There are simply not enough facts made public about this case for any of us here to know for sure what transpired and how the decisions were made, and when they were made (and not only the decision whether to, or when to operate).

[Always Red]

I don't have a horse in this race, but I like to be a stickler about what is fact and what is faith. In this case, I don't understand why two people would still be arguing about when Votto got injured: the Reds themselves say it happened sliding into 3rd in that game in San Fran.

Done and done.

Also: June 29 isn't "a month ago" (to those insisting on rounding up). It's barely 2 weeks ago. Hyperbole (whether out of ignorance or out of willful desire to mislead) will get you nowhere with me!!!

You're welcome.


Rick

If you're referring to me, Rick, I'm not at all arguing about when the injury happened.

[Crumbley]

Lots of panic attacks in Reds Country tonight.

My apartment included.

[Vottomatic]

If you need orthopedic surgery, do not go to Wellington Ortho. I had shoulder surgery back in October of 2009 and it still isn't right.

[Dan]

First, I tore my meniscus in a fall in December. Got through it without surgery. Just several weeks of physical therapy.

Second, this is why I've been advocating picking up someone like Lahair. Yeah, he's terrible against lefties, but can fill in for a few weeks and then be a solid RH hitter off the bench.

[mattfeet]

Didn't have MRI until today

[mattfeet]

I too had meniscus/PCL surgery and was back to playing baseball in 3.5 weeks. It's a VERY simply recovery.

[mattfeet]

Votto didn't request the MRI until yesterday or today per Jocketty.

[wheels]

I don't have a horse in this race, but I like to be a stickler about what is fact and what is faith. In this case, I don't understand why two people would still be arguing about when Votto got injured: the Reds themselves say it happened sliding into 3rd in that game in San Fran.

Done and done.

Also: June 29 isn't "a month ago" (to those insisting on rounding up). It's barely 2 weeks ago. Hyperbole (whether out of ignorance or out of willful desire to mislead) will get you nowhere with me!!!

You're welcome.


Rick

I like me some hyperbole, but this entire thread is so full of it I want to vomit nails and spit fire.

Guh.

[Sea Ray]

I think it's legit. If they put him on the 15-day DL, they better bring up HRod -- not Harris.

Is HRod on the 40 man?

[Sea Ray]

Didn't have MRI until today

They should have insisted on the MRI 2 weeks ago. He's a $200mill piece of property

[Sea Ray]

I too had meniscus/PCL surgery and was back to playing baseball in 3.5 weeks. It's a VERY simply recovery.

Do they actually repair the Meniscus or do they remove it?

[Blitz Dorsey]

Votto didn't request the MRI until yesterday or today per Jocketty.

Wow, when did it become protocol for players to request MRIs? Isn't that the job of the medical director? Kremhack should have insisted Joey get one right after the injury to make sure everything was OK. He's a $250-million+ investment. I don't get the free and easy approach here by Kremchek. When he saw Votto in LA soon after the injury, what exactly did he do? Why was no MRI done then?

And I love the idea that Jim Edmonds was lying about Kremchek. Why would Edmonds make that up? C'mon, let's not let our dislike of Edmonds cloud the truth here. The Reds have a pretty bad medical director.

[Big Klu]

Is HRod on the 40 man?

Yes. The only infielder at Louisville who is not on the 40-man roster is Willie Harris. Currently the Reds have 39 players on the 40-man roster.

[Sea Ray]

Wow, when did it become protocol for players to request MRIs? Isn't that the job of the medical director? Kremhack should have insisted Joey get one right after the injury to make sure everything was OK. He's a $250-million+ investment. I don't get the free and easy approach here by Kremchek. When he saw Votto in LA soon after the injury, what exactly did he do? Why was no MRI done then?

And I love the idea that Jim Edmonds was lying about Kremchek. Why would Edmonds make that up? C'mon, let's not let our dislike of Edmonds cloud the truth here. The Reds have a pretty bad medical director.

I hear what you're saying but once Doc Holliday does get a guy on the operating table, he does fix 'em up. I think he's a very good surgeon

[Tony Cloninger]

So beacuse he is a great surgeon ...that makes him great at diagnosing injuries? Maybe it's about time to have someone else do the diagnosing and leave Dr. Killpatient to doing surgery only?

[dougdirt]

Do they actually repair the Meniscus or do they remove it?

The remove parts of it. Been there, done that. Twice.

[WVPacman]

NM

[corkedbat]

Had the Reds DL's Votto two weeks ago, the Reds would probably be eight games out of first place by now.

Despite what posters are saying about Kremcheck, he is still one of the top orthopedic surgeons in the entire country, and MANY sports franchises send their athletes to Kremcheck for surgery.

If your premise is correct (and I don't buy it) then we can expect the reds to be 10-15 games back if he is out 3-4 weeks.

[gonelong]

Wow, when did it become protocol for players to request MRIs?

Since always. You can't preform test/medical procedures on teh unwilliing.

Isn't that the job of the medical director? Kremhack should have insisted Joey get one right after the injury to make sure everything was OK. He's a $250-million+ investment. I don't get the free and easy approach here by Kremchek. When he saw Votto in LA soon after the injury, what exactly did he do? Why was no MRI done then?

It's not his call. He has input, ultimately it's Joey's call.

And I love the idea that Jim Edmonds was lying about Kremchek. Why would Edmonds make that up? C'mon, let's not let our dislike of Edmonds cloud the truth here. The Reds have a pretty bad medical director.

Compared to who?

GL

[westofyou]

Compared to who?


This guy

http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2493/4051201104_889c46f98a.jpg

[fearofpopvol1]

Aside from Votto's awesome hitting, I just worry about taking the one guy who was a huge plus with OBP out. After Hanigan in that department, we have...? It is best to get this done immediately. I'm a bit torn about him having it done before the ASG, unless it caused deeper or more permanent damage. Probably for the better, but I think the Reds needed his bat to sweep the Cards. I really do. I think you reasonably have to plan on him being out until the middle of August. I wonder if his being out will impact the Reds making a trade?

Phillips has been hot as of late, but the Reds are going to need an unsung hero with the stick and they have to pray that Frazier doesn't regress too much (a regression of some sort is likely coming). Maybe it's Bruce, maybe it's Stubbs or someone unexpected. Pitching has to stay strong and the Reds need the Cards and Pirates to lose some games, that's for sure.

I'm sure this is far too ballsy for Dusty, but, I would put Mesoraco at 1B and Frazier at 3B. May lose a few runs defensively, but Frazier + Mesoraco - Votto in the lineup might actually be a little closer to a wash. Certainly closer than Rolen + Frazier. Plus you have the added bonus of Hanigan's OBP in there, at least on days Mesoraco doesn't catch.

[Playadlc]

Aside from Votto's awesome hitting, I just worry about taking the one guy who was a huge plus with OBP out. After Hanigan in that department, we have...? It is best to get this done immediately. I'm a bit torn about him having it done before the ASG, unless it caused deeper or more permanent damage. Probably for the better, but I think the Reds needed his bat to sweep the Cards. I really do. I think you reasonably have to plan on him being out until the middle of August. I wonder if his being out will impact the Reds making a trade?

Phillips has been hot as of late, but the Reds are going to need an unsung hero with the stick and they have to pray that Frazier doesn't regress too much (a regression of some sort is likely coming). Maybe it's Bruce, maybe it's Stubbs or someone unexpected. Pitching has to stay strong and the Reds need the Cards and Pirates to lose some games, that's for sure.

I'm sure this is far too ballsy for Dusty, but, I would put Mesoraco at 1B and Frazier at 3B. May lose a few runs defensively, but Frazier + Mesoraco - Votto in the lineup might actually be a little closer to a wash. Certainly closer than Rolen + Frazier. Plus you have the added bonus of Hanigan's OBP in there, at least on days Mesoraco doesn't catch.

Is Mes a better option at 1B than Hannigan?

[fearofpopvol1]

Is Mes a better option at 1B than Hannigan?

I think Mesoraco is a little more athletic than Hanigan is.

Mes 1B, Hanigan C > Hanigan 1B, Mes C

[GAC]

Since always. You can't preform test/medical procedures on teh unwilliing.



It's not his call. He has input, ultimately it's Joey's call.

And that's the crux of the situation. Going after Kremchek, saying he missed it or misdiagnosed the guy, calling the guy a total hack... and especially on the word of Edmonds... without knowing all the facts/details, is nothing more then emotional hysteria. The FACT is that Kremcheck is so well respected in the industry of sports medicine that other MLB team's players, as well as athletes throughout sports, come to his clinic for surgery. I guess they're all nincompoops?

And it doesn't matter WHO you are or what your yearly income is, as far as the steps taken (recommended) when doing the initial diagnosis. They are going to listen to the patient - how they feel, where it hurts, symptoms - and from there recommend options. But it is always going to come down to the decision of the patient. And in that initial prognosis is may involve the physician recommending an MRI. Does anyone know for sure that Kremcheck didn't recommend an MRI? Anyone? Maybe Joey decided against it, based on the symptoms he was feeling, and to take the route of physical therapy first to see what happens, see if that helps? That's pretty standard. That's the way it was with me (twice -and it worked), and my son recently (shoulder, still yet to be determined. May have to have minor surgery).

It's understandable that people are bummed. But going after Kremchek or this medical staff is absurd IMO.

[RedsManRick]

It will be telling if Frazier doesn't play everyday for the next few weeks. I can see Dusty going with an even Frazier/Rolen/Cairo rotation on the corners.

[edabbs44]

It will be telling if Frazier doesn't play everyday for the next few weeks. I can see Dusty going with an even Frazier/Rolen/Cairo rotation on the corners.

There is no way.

[cumberlandreds]

The Reds should be OK without Votto. I expect him to only miss about 3 weeks. Normally 2 to 3 weeks is the most someone misses from this type of injury and surgery. I've had it and I was up and walking about in no time. This is the easiest part of the Reds schedule now. They should survive this without too much of a problem. If you still can't beat under .500 teams even without your main cog then you were going to be in trouble anyway. I expect Frazier to get the bulk of the playing time at first. I really don't expect a trade for anyone at first unless the injury turns out to be more serious. It will be interesting to see who they bring up from the minors. I haven't read all of this thread but I don't have any idea who may come up from Louisville.

[Raisor]

If losing Votto for up to a month isn't a "big deal' probably shouldn't have gave him $250,000,000.

Of course its a big deal. This was the part of the schedule where the Reds could have made some serious headway, now we probably hope for surviving.

Injuries happen. Not really anyway to prevent it from happening, but to think its not a big deal is a bit crazy.

[CySeymour]

The one player the Reds need to step up now is Jay Bruce. He really is the only other player on the team capable of carrying a team for an extended period.

[jhu1321]

The one player the Reds need to step up now is Jay Bruce. He really is the only other player on the team capable of carrying a team for an extended period.

Spot on. Time to see what Bruce is made of....... :beerme:

[Sea Ray]

It's also a test of the Reds' very weak bench. Going into the year we knew that we could not afford serious injuries to either Votto or Bruce

[MikeS21]

Sure it is, Dr. Blitz. You know nearly none of the facts of this case.

Had he operated on a knee that didn't exactly quite need it, then he would have been a hack who just operates for money.

I get it, Doc Hollywood is an easy target, so let's just tee off on him.

Funny thing about this site- Kremchek is considered one of the finest orthpedists in the country when it comes to sports injuries, and teams (not only baseball teams) from all over the country send patient to him. What a freakin quack! No love here.

Just like the Dusty bashing on this site, this makes no sense to me at all. None.

People get hurt playing baseball. It happens. All the time. Things feel ok, you play some more, and play well. Then it starts to hurt some more, you sit out, get scanned and find an injury. Hey. Let's blame the doc! Kremchek is a hard guy to like, but he is a veritable expert at what he does. Not one single person here ever gives him credit for all the players he has fixed and rehabbed. No one.

Such is the Internet.
:thumbup::thumbup:

The thing is, Kremcheck is not a mind reader. Votto tells him its OK. Votto then goes out and one minute he's limping down to first base and the next minute he looks as if nothing is wrong. I completely disagree with those who say it was "obvious" Votto was hurting. On some plays he looked as if he was favoring it, but other times, he looked fine.

My dad had a torn meniscus, but it was not discovered until three weeks later, when, what he thought to be minor pain didn't go away. The day he went in for surgery, he said the pain wasn't all that bad except for certain ways he moved the knee, he'd get a twinge. He got it fixed and had no more problems with it.

Votto may be the $250 million man, but you cannot stick him into an MRI machine for every scrape and bruise he may get. Votto probably thought it was a simple bruise, and figured he could play through the pain for a few days and it would clear up. Trainer probably looked at it, and told him to keep an eye on it and if it didn't clear up in a few days, then they'd get the MRI. So Votto played with the pain for a few days and it didn't get better.

Not sure how Kremcheck can be blamed for that.

[REDREAD]

Kremchek is still a hack though. Amazing Votto was hurt in late June and they allowed him to play with a torn meniscus for nearly a month. Morons.

I'm still a little bit scared.. Would anyone be surprised to hear in a few weeks.. Well, once we got in the knee, it was worse than expected.. Votto will be out longer..
Kremcheck has a history of that... Heck, just with this, they initially announced that Votto just needed 1 day off..

I hope it's only 3-4 weeks.

And yes, Kremcheck has a horrible record of catching these injuries when they happen.. Or if he does catch them, his record of "well, what the heck, try to play through it" is really aggravating.

[OesterPoster]

Just searching for some other examples of torn meniscus, and so far found this recent one for Emmanuel Sanders, WR for the Steelers. Torn on October 30th, had surgery soon after that, and then played on November 27th after practicing already on the 23rd and 24th. So figure maybe about 22 days between surgery and full activity.


Sanders practiced fully Wednesday and Thursday and, barring an unexpected setback, expects to play Sunday night against the Chiefs in Kansas City. He injured his knee in the Steelers' 25-17 win against New England Oct. 30 and had arthroscopic surgery shortly thereafter.

Thursday, Sanders said his knee felt good and that there has been no swelling, a good sign in his recovery.

Read more: http://www.post-gazette.com/stories/sports/steelers/sanders-likely-to-return-sunday-325379/#ixzz20t1HmtR5