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reds44
07-09-2012, 08:22 PM
I figured instead of starting a new thread everytime there is a Reds related rumor leading up to the deadline, this is a good place to post them.

The Reds have already been tied to Juan Pierre, and the latest name mentioned with the Reds is Carlos Quentin.

http://www.cbssports.com/mlb/blog/jon-heyman/19544271/reds-pirates-indians-marlins-among-teams-to-inquire-about-quentin


Padres outfielder Carlos Quentin, who just may be the best hitter dealt this month, has drawn trade interest from the Reds, Indians and Pirates, among others, according to sources.

DGullett35
07-09-2012, 08:36 PM
I guess anything that would either put Phillips back in the leadoff spot or get this team a different leadoff hitter would be deemed an upgrade.

SidneySlicker
07-09-2012, 09:46 PM
Reds are in a tough spot they have really depleted their farm system so they aren't really in a position to further dip into that talent base, yet they do have some holes to fill if they intend to contend for a world series. So they have some serious questions to answer, sooner rather than later.

Scrap Irony
07-09-2012, 10:07 PM
Their farm has three top-notch starting prospects in AA (and a fourth that's intriguing). They also have two major league-ready bullpen arms in AAA that are dominating. They've just promoted a guy to AAA who plays both 2B and 3B and has a lifetime minor league BA over .310.

None of this mentions their best prospect, a SS who's stolen 100 bases in half a season and has an obp well over .400.

It's not the best farm system in the world, but it's not some talent in it that can be used.

corkedbat
07-09-2012, 10:09 PM
Reds are in a tough spot they have really depleted their farm system so they aren't really in a position to further dip into that talent base, yet they do have some holes to fill if they intend to contend for a world series. So they have some serious questions to answer, sooner rather than later.

There is plenty left to make a move if Walt has the will - might not be quite as sex as many would like, but a deal can be done and needs to be.

LegallyMinded
07-09-2012, 10:34 PM
Reds are in a tough spot they have really depleted their farm system so they aren't really in a position to further dip into that talent base, yet they do have some holes to fill if they intend to contend for a world series. So they have some serious questions to answer, sooner rather than later.

The organizational depth has certainly taken a hit with the recent trades, but in his midseason update of the top 120 prospects, John Sickels (http://www.minorleagueball.com/2012/7/2/3130761/top-120-prospect-list-for-2012-midseason-revision-update) had 5 Reds listed (Billy Hamilton and 4 pitchers). That seems to indicate the Reds could put together a pretty decent package of prospects if they really want to get a deal done. I'd be interested in knowing which teams match up best with the Reds in terms of the prospects the Reds have and the positional needs of the other teams.

Dan
07-09-2012, 11:21 PM
Carlos Quentin's slash line since June 8 (http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/gl.cgi?id=quentca01&t=b&year=2012&share=0.94#625-649-sum:batting_gamelogs):

.200/.364/.306/.670

He came off the DL and was scorching hot, then he slumped. He's still in that funk.

Spitball
07-10-2012, 12:49 AM
Hamilton is pretty high profile right now. I believe he might be the component that could bring one of the highest profile trade targets at this point. His speed is so intriguing.

Reds/Flyers Fan
07-10-2012, 12:55 AM
Carlos Quentin's slash line since June 8 (http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/gl.cgi?id=quentca01&t=b&year=2012&share=0.94#625-649-sum:batting_gamelogs):

.200/.364/.306/.670

He came off the DL and was scorching hot, then he slumped. He's still in that funk.

I think the move from Petco Park to GABP would go a long way toward curing that funk.

Kc61
07-10-2012, 01:08 AM
Hamilton is pretty high profile right now. I believe he might be the component that could bring one of the highest profile trade targets at this point. His speed is so intriguing.

I'd be absolutely amazed if Hamilton were traded. He is going to be an exciting ballplayer and potentially a huge attraction. I don't think he is going any place except Pensacola, Louisville, and then Cincinnati.

And even if the Reds would consider such a trade, they aren't trading Hamilton for a Carlos Quentin or even a Justin Upton, who the DBacks are suddenly so willing to trade off. Billy is a unique type player and the Reds would demand a king's ransom for him now, which, of course they won't get.

And consider that Hamilton, with his exciting play and incredible baserunning ability, would be cheap and under the Reds' control for years. He is very, very valuable. No way the Reds trade him now for Upton and his big long-term contract.

If Hamilton continues to progress, he will bring the Reds a very good player and lots of exposure, fans in the seats, national TV, and the like. If the Reds have any sense of marketing their product and economics, which I believe they do, Billy is going nowhere except up the Reds' chain.

AtomicDumpling
07-10-2012, 01:40 AM
I'd be absolutely amazed if Hamilton were traded. He is going to be an exciting ballplayer and potentially a huge attraction. I don't think he is going any place except Pensacola, Louisville, and then Cincinnati.

And even if the Reds would consider such a trade, they aren't trading Hamilton for a Carlos Quentin or even a Justin Upton, who the DBacks are suddenly so willing to trade off. Billy is a unique type player and the Reds would demand a king's ransom for him now, which, of course they won't get.

And consider that Hamilton, with his exciting play and incredible baserunning ability, would be cheap and under the Reds' control for years. He is very, very valuable. No way the Reds trade him now for Upton and his big long-term contract.

If Hamilton continues to progress, he will bring the Reds a very good player and lots of exposure, fans in the seats, national TV, and the like. If the Reds have any sense of marketing their product and economics, which I believe they do, Billy is going nowhere except up the Reds' chain.

I agree with your comments on Billy Hamilton being a valuable marketing chip in addition to a great prospect, although I believe if the Reds could trade him straight up for Justin Upton they would do it in a heartbeat. I think it will take much more than Billy Hamilton for the Reds to land Upton however.

I don't think the Diamondbacks are "suddenly so willing to trade off" Justin Upton. They are willing to test the market and see if they can score a huge haul of talent in return. I don't think there is anything major physically wrong with him other than a couple nagging injuries. I know he and hard-nosed manager Kirk Gibson have had a couple of spats, so this could just be a signal to Upton that he better keep in line or he could be shipped out -- as if being traded would hurt Upton's feelings at all. Upton is one of the absolute best young talents in the game, and I am sure the Reds would love to acquire him if they can.

Kc61
07-10-2012, 01:53 AM
I agree with your comments on Billy Hamilton being a valuable marketing chip in addition to a great prospect, although I believe if the Reds could trade him straight up for Justin Upton they would do it in a heartbeat. I think it will take much more than Billy Hamilton for the Reds to land Upton however.

I don't think the Diamondbacks are "suddenly so willing to trade off" Justin Upton. They are willing to test the market and see if they can score a huge haul of talent in return. I don't think there is anything major physically wrong with him other than a couple nagging injuries. I know he and hard-nosed manager Kirk Gibson have had a couple of spats, so this could just be a signal to Upton that he better keep in line or he could be shipped out -- as if being traded would hurt Upton's feelings at all. Upton is one of the absolute best young talents in the game, and I am sure the Reds would love to acquire him if they can.

I don't know, to me, the DBacks testing the waters on an Upton trade is a big red flag.

The DBacks are still in contention, particularly with two wild card spots. They are one game under five hundred and only four out of first in the West. If they are considering trading Upton, it would raise a major concern on my part as to what is really going on.

I know Upton's pedigree and that he is a top young talent, but my instinct is the Reds will hold onto Hamilton. He's just a unique type player. Even if Upton grades out higher as an all around player, and I'm sure Upton does, I think the Reds will pass if Billy is involved.

I take your point, and you may well be correct, I think this is a "buy beware" situation and the Reds won't bite unless Upton comes at a serious discount.

AtomicDumpling
07-10-2012, 01:58 AM
I don't know, to me, the DBacks testing the waters on an Upton trade is a big red flag.

The DBacks are still in contention, particularly with two wild card spots. They are one game under five hundred and only four out of first in the West. If they are considering trading Upton, it would raise a major concern on my part as to what is really going on.

I know Upton's pedigree and that he is a top young talent, but my instinct is the Reds will hold onto Hamilton. He's just a unique type player. Even if Upton grades out higher as an all around player, I think the Reds will pass if Billy is involved.

I take your point, and you may well be correct, I think this is a "buy beware" situation and the Reds won't bite unless Upton comes at a serious discount.

I agree it is highly unlikely to happen, but fun to discuss nonetheless.

The DBacks floated Upton last year too. They were in a pennant race and Upton was in the MVP race. There wasn't anything wrong with him then and there probably isn't now either. But you are right, any team that acquires him better put him through a thorough physical first.

Kc61
07-10-2012, 02:02 AM
I agree it is highly unlikely to happen, but fun to discuss nonetheless.

The DBacks floated Upton last year too. They were in a pennant race and Upton was in the MVP race. There wasn't anything wrong with him then and there probably isn't now either. But you are right, any team that acquires him better put him through a thorough physical first.

I just checked out Upton's numbers since he joined the DBacks. He is pretty impressive statistically. That's for sure.

AtomicDumpling
07-10-2012, 02:03 AM
I just checked out Upton's numbers since he joined the DBacks. He is pretty impressive statistically. That's for sure.

Yep. And at 24 years old he likely hasn't reached his prime yet.

Scrap Irony
07-10-2012, 02:31 AM
If Arizone would be Hamilton straight up for Upton, I'd drive Slidin' Billy there myself.

Of course, he's so fast, he'd beat me there running.

cumberlandreds
07-10-2012, 10:07 AM
Carlos Quentin's slash line since June 8 (http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/gl.cgi?id=quentca01&t=b&year=2012&share=0.94#625-649-sum:batting_gamelogs):

.200/.364/.306/.670

He came off the DL and was scorching hot, then he slumped. He's still in that funk.

After watching Quentin for four games over the weekend I don't think he would be much of an upgrade to what the Reds have now. He's certainly not worth any major prospects.

Spitball
07-10-2012, 10:28 AM
I'd be absolutely amazed if Hamilton were traded. He is going to be an exciting ballplayer and potentially a huge attraction. I don't think he is going any place except Pensacola, Louisville, and then Cincinnati.

And even if the Reds would consider such a trade, they aren't trading Hamilton for a Carlos Quentin or even a Justin Upton, who the DBacks are suddenly so willing to trade off. Billy is a unique type player and the Reds would demand a king's ransom for him now, which, of course they won't get.

And consider that Hamilton, with his exciting play and incredible baserunning ability, would be cheap and under the Reds' control for years. He is very, very valuable. No way the Reds trade him now for Upton and his big long-term contract.

If Hamilton continues to progress, he will bring the Reds a very good player and lots of exposure, fans in the seats, national TV, and the like. If the Reds have any sense of marketing their product and economics, which I believe they do, Billy is going nowhere except up the Reds' chain.

This was my point. I wasn't necessarily advocating trading him, but if the Reds decide to get into any bidding, they have a very valuable chip.

Upton is intriguing, but I wonder why Arizona wants to get rid of a 24-year-old with a world of talent when they are just 4 games out of first.

Kc61
07-10-2012, 11:06 AM
This was my point. I wasn't necessarily advocating trading him, but if the Reds decide to get into any bidding, they have a very valuable chip.

Upton is intriguing, but I wonder why Arizona wants to get rid of a 24-year-old with a world of talent when they are just 4 games out of first.

Sure, I agree.

The more I think about it, the more I think the Reds will just add a lefty bat with a good OBP rather than a cleanup guy before the trade deadline.

The most direct problem right now is getting on base against RHP. I think obtaining a Denard Span or a David DeJesus or even a Seth Smith would cost a lot less in prospects and salary than a Justin Upton.

I could see an Upton type move in the off-season as the Reds' big upgrade for 2013. Now, in-season, I think a lesser move directly attacking the most obvious problem is more likely.

buckeyenut
07-10-2012, 11:24 AM
I would love to see us go forward with an OF of Upton, Hamilton and Bruce. That could be epic.

For me, two things when it comes to Hamilton...
1. The SB are the sizzle, the steak is that .400+ OBP. The thing that gets me all excited is the idea of him being a .380+ OBP to put at top of our order, even if he steals 15 bases rather than 150 bases.
2. We talk about moving Hamilton to CF. I think that is a decent option. But I don't think it is the only option. If Hamilton cleans up the defense, I think you could also keep him at SS, then move Cozart to 2B and Phillips to 3B or Cozart to 3B. Phillips is going to be getting up there in years soon and likely is going to start seeing a downgrade in his GG 2B defense. What if Phillips was planned to be Rolen's replacement with Hamilton or Cozart taking his place? Of course, if Frazier keeps up the .900+ OPS, he can have 3B and we'll work around him. :)

buckeyenut
07-10-2012, 11:25 AM
Sure, I agree.

The more I think about it, the more I think the Reds will just add a lefty bat with a good OBP rather than a cleanup guy before the trade deadline.

The most direct problem right now is getting on base against RHP. I think obtaining a Denard Span or a David DeJesus or even a Seth Smith would cost a lot less in prospects and salary than a Justin Upton.

I could see an Upton type move in the off-season as the Reds' big upgrade for 2013. Now, in-season, I think a lesser move directly attacking the most obvious problem is more likely.

There is no reason we shouldn't be able to pick up a guy like DeJesus at the deadline at a minimum. He is a perfect fit for this team and should not cost much at all.

Johnny Footstool
07-10-2012, 11:27 AM
There is no reason we shouldn't be able to pick up a guy like DeJesus at the deadline at a minimum. He is a perfect fit for this team and should not cost much at all.

Exactly. There's also no reason to wait for the deadline.

Benihana
07-10-2012, 11:45 AM
Sure, I agree.

The more I think about it, the more I think the Reds will just add a lefty bat with a good OBP rather than a cleanup guy before the trade deadline.

The most direct problem right now is getting on base against RHP. I think obtaining a Denard Span or a David DeJesus or even a Seth Smith would cost a lot less in prospects and salary than a Justin Upton.

I could see an Upton type move in the off-season as the Reds' big upgrade for 2013. Now, in-season, I think a lesser move directly attacking the most obvious problem is more likely.

The problem with this is how often are players of Upton's caliber available in the offseason? How often do 24 year old MVP candidates get traded at all? Especially with three more years of cost certainty.

The Reds have to be opportunistic when opportunities present themselves. Players like Justin Upton don't go on the market every year. The Reds have enough anchors at the big league level that they could afford to trade some prospects to fill a huge need. This could be like the Latos trade of hitters.

As far as guys who get on base, Upton has posted an OBP above .350 every year for the last five years. And he's 24 years old. He also steals 20 bases per year, so Dusty could justify batting him 2nd if he needed to.

Reds/Flyers Fan
07-10-2012, 11:51 AM
Exactly. There's also no reason to wait for the deadline.

This x20. There are games prior to July 31 that DeJesus or any other potential trade candidate could help the Reds win. If you're going to do it, do it.

medford
07-10-2012, 12:20 PM
It takes two to tango. If the Reds are willing to deal "X" for DeJesus, why wouldn't the Cubs wait a few more weeks to see if they can't get someone to trade "X+Y" for DeJesus, perhaps forcing the reds to deal "X+Y+Z" at the end of the day. There is no motivation for the Cubs to deal him for the best deal today when they might be able to work out a better deal next week.

Kc61
07-10-2012, 12:53 PM
The problem with this is how often are players of Upton's caliber available in the offseason? How often do 24 year old MVP candidates get traded at all? Especially with three more years of cost certainty.

The Reds have to be opportunistic when opportunities present themselves. Players like Justin Upton don't go on the market every year. The Reds have enough anchors at the big league level that they could afford to trade some prospects to fill a huge need. This could be like the Latos trade of hitters.

As far as guys who get on base, Upton has posted an OBP above .350 every year for the last five years. And he's 24 years old. He also steals 20 bases per year, so Dusty could justify batting him 2nd if he needed to.

The DBacks have no compelling need to trade Upton now that I know of. I don't think the Reds will dismantle their team or their farm system mid-season to get him. And that's probably what it would take.

If he is still on the market in the off-season, when the team is formulating itself for 2013, I think there's a better chance.

The only caveat is that IF Upton has some unknown major problem in Arizona that provides the DBacks with a strong incentive to sell him immediately, then I could see the Reds in the mix for a reasonable deal.

As I said before, the more likely scenario is a lesser deal now, for a lead off type, lefty OBP guy who is a lot cheaper in dollars and prospects than Upton. Someone who can be obtained without a major upheaval.

kaldaniels
07-10-2012, 02:06 PM
This x20. There are games prior to July 31 that DeJesus or any other potential trade candidate could help the Reds win. If you're going to do it, do it.

Even if you project the cost for them to decrease heading up to the deadline? Sure you make an offer now, but I imagine the other GM would try to leverage more prospects out of the Reds for an early deal. Every deal is unique, no doubt .

corkedbat
07-10-2012, 02:30 PM
I would love to see us go forward with an OF of Upton, Hamilton and Bruce. That could be epic.

For me, two things when it comes to Hamilton...
1. The SB are the sizzle, the steak is that .400+ OBP. The thing that gets me all excited is the idea of him being a .380+ OBP to put at top of our order, even if he steals 15 bases rather than 150 bases.
2. We talk about moving Hamilton to CF. I think that is a decent option. But I don't think it is the only option. If Hamilton cleans up the defense, I think you could also keep him at SS, then move Cozart to 2B and Phillips to 3B or Cozart to 3B. Phillips is going to be getting up there in years soon and likely is going to start seeing a downgrade in his GG 2B defense. What if Phillips was planned to be Rolen's replacement with Hamilton or Cozart taking his place? Of course, if Frazier keeps up the .900+ OPS, he can have 3B and we'll work around him. :)

I love Cozart, but not so much if you move him off SS. I'd rather have Henry Rodriguez at 2B and Frazier or HRod at 3B. Zach doesn't have the stick to play 3B on anything approaching a regular basis. In my book, if Cozart isn't your starting SS, he's a utility guy.

REDREAD
07-10-2012, 03:06 PM
The DBacks have no compelling need to trade Upton now that I know of. I don't think the Reds will dismantle their team or their farm system mid-season to get him. And that's probably what it would take.
.

It just seems that Upton is "on the market" every year. I really don't think the Dbacks are serious about trading him. Probably just annually fishing for an overpay.

REDREAD
07-10-2012, 03:07 PM
In my book, if Cozart isn't your starting SS, he's a utility guy.

Actually, I think Cozart is trade bait if Hamilton sticks at SS.
There's guys much worse than Cozart that had long careers as starting shortstops.

RedlegJake
07-10-2012, 03:31 PM
1. Cozart may actually force Billy into centerfield. Look at Cozart's numbers - if he DOES hit 20 homers and 40 doubles in his rookie season and next year improves his OBP and keeps his SP close to where it is I'd think they'd keep Cozart and move Billy to CF to be able to have both. Why lose either one? And have Gregorious as a backup? Sheesh You're talking riches there.

2. I think the Reds value Billy more than most here must think with all the talk of Billy in trades. I think it would take an incredible blockbuster to get them to trade him. Straight up for Upton kind of blockbuster. And they'd probably ask Arizona to include some cash!
The Reds, from all I've read, are as high on Billy as any player in the last 20 years including Bruce...

3. Walt has made 2 deadline trades in 10 years. That was in the Enquirer. I was surprised. Seemed to remember more but that's what they had printed. One of the lowest traders at the deadline. Maybe he WILL sit on his hands.

PuffyPig
07-10-2012, 05:12 PM
There's also no reason to wait for the deadline.

A possible reason may the reluctance of the seller to deal before the deadline.

The cost of aquiring players today is higher than at the deadline.

You have to convince the seller that there isn't going to be a better deal by waiting. Basically blow their socks off.

REDREAD
07-10-2012, 05:17 PM
3. Walt has made 2 deadline trades in 10 years. That was in the Enquirer..

That's misleading by the Enquirer though.
For example, he picked up Larry Walker on Aug 7. Technically not a trade deadline deal, but a huge pickup to reinforce the team for the stretch run.

RedEye
07-10-2012, 06:16 PM
The Reds, from all I've read, are as high on Billy as any player in the last 20 years including Bruce...


What are you reading? I've read everything I can get my hands on and, while he's doubtless a very good prospect, he's nowhere near a Bruce, who was the #1 overall prospect in the minors by the end of his tenure. Speed is great to have, but it doesn't ensure he's going to be able to do much with the bat in the show. He also seems to be a bit rough defensively at this stage -- whereas Bruce was a polished RF by the time he came up, IIRC.

RedlegJake
07-10-2012, 08:00 PM
What are you reading? I've read everything I can get my hands on and, while he's doubtless a very good prospect, he's nowhere near a Bruce, who was the #1 overall prospect in the minors by the end of his tenure. Speed is great to have, but it doesn't ensure he's going to be able to do much with the bat in the show. He also seems to be a bit rough defensively at this stage -- whereas Bruce was a polished RF by the time he came up, IIRC.

I'm not talking about their outlook on his ceiling I'm talking about their excitement and his untouchability - his "butt-in-the-seat" factor makes him a managerial diamond

RedlegJake
07-10-2012, 08:01 PM
That's misleading by the Enquirer though.
For example, he picked up Larry Walker on Aug 7. Technically not a trade deadline deal, but a huge pickup to reinforce the team for the stretch run.

That's true - the Enquirer dates were June through July 31st

RedEye
07-10-2012, 08:50 PM
I'm not talking about their outlook on his ceiling I'm talking about their excitement and his untouchability - his "butt-in-the-seat" factor makes him a managerial diamond

I guess so. But if the so-called "butt-in-the-seat" factor is what is driving their estimation of his value, then they are deluding themselves.

I really doubt Billy Hamilton is untouchable. In the right deal, I would expect almost anyone can be had probably -- other than maybe Votto.

Revering4Blue
07-10-2012, 09:41 PM
That's true - the Enquirer dates were June through July 31st

What about landing Mark McGwire and the 2002 version of Scott Rolen for peanuts? Also,Jeff Weaver and Ronnie Belliard contributed in the 2006 playoffs.

The Cardinals farm system at the time all were acquired was considered "barren" and too devoid of talent to acquire any player of significance, but WJ got it done.

Sure, WJ has his faults, but the fact that he was able to continually supplement his big league roster utilizing what was perceived as a much weaker farm system than today's Reds farm system tells me that he should be able to acquire this team some help at the deadline.

camisadelgolf
07-10-2012, 10:00 PM
The only way the Reds trade Hamilton is if they obtain Upton imo. Who else is supposedly available that could possibly be worth it? I'd say Greinke or Hamels, but they're almost definitely rentals.

corkedbat
07-10-2012, 10:12 PM
I guess so. But if the so-called "butt-in-the-seat" factor is what is driving their estimation of his value, then they are deluding themselves.

I really doubt Billy Hamilton is untouchable. In the right deal, I would expect almost anyone can be had probably -- other than maybe Votto.

Not saying that there's no deal the reds wouold make that included Billy, but if there is hewould reduce the number of bodies the Reds would have to include by one if not two. I'd demand Willing ham for he an Corcino or Cingrani and have to think twice about doing it (and Willingham is number one on my list). I wouldn't offer much (if anything) more for Upton.

RedEye
07-10-2012, 10:33 PM
Not saying that there's no deal the reds wouold make that included Billy, but if there is hewould reduce the number of bodies the Reds would have to include by one if not two. I'd demand Willing ham for he an Corcino or Cingrani and have to think twice about doing it (and Willingham is number one on my list). I wouldn't offer much (if anything) more for Upton.

Yes, I would think that if Billy were part of a deal, he would sweeten it more than, say, a handful of B-level prospects.

No idea why you would want Willingham over Upton. He is older and less productive IMO. I guess he's a bit cheaper -- at least in the next two years.

SidneySlicker
07-10-2012, 10:41 PM
The Reds have their first legitimate mlb lead-off guy in their system since who knows when, and people have even an ounce of thought of trading the guy? There is no way that Hamilton is touchable, and I don't care who they might get unless it's a stellar proven lead-off hitter.

WVRedsFan
07-11-2012, 12:52 AM
The Reds have their first legitimate mlb lead-off guy in their system since who knows when, and people have even an ounce of thought of trading the guy? There is no way that Hamilton is touchable, and I don't care who they might get unless it's a stellar proven lead-off hitter.

AMEN!!!!!

corkedbat
07-11-2012, 01:39 AM
The Reds have their first legitimate mlb lead-off guy in their system since who knows when, and people have even an ounce of thought of trading the guy? There is no way that Hamilton is touchable, and I don't care who they might get unless it's a stellar proven lead-off hitter.

I would hate to have to give up Hamilton for anybody, but the more I think about it, the more I think I would have to really consider it for Josh Willingham.

Willingham is a solid consistent performer and would be an excellent fit between Votto and Bruce. I think those three in the meat of the order would stack the Reds up well against anyone in the NL and make them true World Series contenders.

He's due $3.5M the remainder of his season and $7Meach of the next two years. While he may not have the terrific upside of a Justin Upton, I believe he's more consistent and would be cheaper. If salary is tight this year, I'd ask the Twinks to pitch in $1.75 this year and use the saving from not resigning Rolen and re-ngotiating with Madson to offset the cost. I like the rotation, the bullpen and a lot of the younger guys coming along through the system. A proven major league bat for the middle of the order is the one thing I don't see in the system the next couple of year's and, IMO, it may be the hardest to find. Willingham can fit the bill and if he produces as he has, S7M would be a bargain.

As exciting as Billy is, he's still year or two away and as good as he's been this season, he's not a proven major league guy and I want to win now. I go to the Twinks and I offer Billy and a young starter for Josh. I start with Sulbaran or Lotzkar, but I am willing to up it to Cingrani or Corcino if that's what it takes. I'm also willing to expand it if Minny will include Spann. I'd talk guys like Heisey, Bray, Ondrsek, LaMarre, Soto and others (i'd include Heisey with Hamilton and Lotkar or Sulbaran for Willingham if that would get the deal done.

CF Drew Stubbs/Denard Spann or Dexter Fowler
2B Brandon Phillips
1B Joey Votto
LF Josh Willingham
RF Jay Bruce
3B Todd Frazier
CA Ryan Hanigan/Devin Mesaraco
SS Zach Cozart

It's giving up a lot, but I think that lineup could win a lot of games the next 2 1/2 seasons. If they can't agree on Spann, I'd go all-out to try and talk the Rox out of Fowler. If your'e going to give up a guy like Billy you need to do everything you can to make it worthwhile.

Nathan
07-11-2012, 02:09 AM
Trading Billy Hamilton straight up for Josh Willingham would be a huge steal for the Twins. I like Willingham quite a bit, but, I'm sure he can be had for less than Hamilton. If not, pass.

Big Klu
07-11-2012, 02:22 AM
Why trade something of value for Josh Willingham when the Reds already have his clone in Ryan Ludwick? According to baseball-reference.com, the most similar player to Willingham is Ludwick, and the third-most similar player to Ludwick is Willingham.

By age, Ludwick was the tenth-most similar player to Willingham at age 29, the fourth-most-similar at age 30, the most similar at age 31, and the second-most similar at age 32.

Willingham was the third-most similar player to Ludwick at age 29, the second-most similar at age 30, the most similar at age 31, and the fourth-most similar at age 32.

Both players are 33 this season.

mth123
07-11-2012, 06:47 AM
Even if you project the cost for them to decrease heading up to the deadline? Sure you make an offer now, but I imagine the other GM would try to leverage more prospects out of the Reds for an early deal. Every deal is unique, no doubt .

Just using some names for illustration, but if the idea is to deal Didi Gregorious at the deadline to obtain a guy like Dejesus, I'd certainly be willing to add a Nick Christiani or a Chris Valaika to get him now so he could impact more games. Of course, if it would take moving from Gregorious to Billy Hamilton to make it happen now, then you wait.

Dejesus is probably more valuable to the Reds than his overall line suggests. He's very splitty with an .855 OPS vs. RHP and a below .420 OPS vs. LHP. The Reds have enough lefty killers that he wouldn't need to play when a lefty is on the mound. He'd be a great target and I'd certainly throw in an extra interesting minor leaguer to get it done now.

There are 18 games on the schedule between now and the deadline. That's 11% of the schedule. If it costs a guy like Christiani to address the team's primary weakness now rather than waiting, its worth it IMO. Remember, it not only gets him sooner, but it also ensures they get him at all. Of course, the Cubs could still be unwilling to pull the trigger unless compeltely blown away. I don't think a guy gets to be a successful major league GM by being unrealistic though. He knows he's not going to get a top 100 prospect for Dejesus. I can't imagine he'd be holding out for something crippling in order to pull the trigger now.

The other possibility is that the Reds are holding out hoping they can get something better. Maybe they prefer Span (I do at this point) and a working on a deal for him and are waiting on a guy like Dejesus (or Juan Pierre) as a fall back.

OesterPoster
07-11-2012, 09:28 AM
Why trade something of value for Josh Willingham when the Reds already have his clone in Ryan Ludwick? According to baseball-reference.com, the most similar player to Willingham is Ludwick, and the third-most similar player to Ludwick is Willingham.

By age, Ludwick was the tenth-most similar player to Willingham at age 29, the fourth-most-similar at age 30, the most similar at age 31, and the second-most similar at age 32.

Willingham was the third-most similar player to Ludwick at age 29, the second-most similar at age 30, the most similar at age 31, and the fourth-most similar at age 32.

Both players are 33 this season.

I don't know how baseball-ref does their comps, but these two career OPS splits against RHP/LHP look pretty different:

Willingham: .826/.892
Ludwick: .798/.763

Ludwick is having a rebound season this year, but will he end the season OPSing over .800? Willingham has had 6 straight seasons of .800+ OPS since his rookie year, and this year should be his 7th.

Willingham solves the LF problem for more than just 2012, Ludwick doesn't.

But still...Willingham is probably too expensive.

lollipopcurve
07-11-2012, 09:49 AM
Boston radio is convinced Ryan Sweeney will be dealt in the next day or two. I've seen elsewhere that folks think the Reds and Boston match up well, though I don't know how that might work (perhaps Janish?). Sweeney doesn't do much for me. Would much rather see them get a LH/top of the order bat like Victorino or Pierre.

Dan
07-11-2012, 09:56 AM
If we're talking Boston, I don't know much about Sweeney. However, I'd love to pick up Nava, and according to MLBTR, he's possibly available. Nava would make a great #2 hole hitter. He'd have to play LF though.

powersackers
07-11-2012, 11:23 AM
Being hung up on Willingham is likely a waste of time. The Twins aren't listening.

http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/06/29/twins-open-to-trading-denard-span-not-josh-willingham/

corkedbat
07-11-2012, 12:59 PM
Why trade something of value for Josh Willingham when the Reds already have his clone in Ryan Ludwick? According to baseball-reference.com, the most similar player to Willingham is Ludwick, and the third-most similar player to Ludwick is Willingham.

By age, Ludwick was the tenth-most similar player to Willingham at age 29, the fourth-most-similar at age 30, the most similar at age 31, and the second-most similar at age 32.

Willingham was the third-most similar player to Ludwick at age 29, the second-most similar at age 30, the most similar at age 31, and the fourth-most similar at age 32.

Both players are 33 this season.

If both are at the very top of their game, Willingham and Ludwick might be quite similar. There is no way that Ludwick will ever be as consistent as Willing ham. Either over the course of a year or from year to year. Not expecting the Reds to acquire JW, just gicing an example of where I'd be willing to include Hamilton. I'd be willing to include Billy for a true TOR also, but not a deadline rental (and that's not happening either).

The Voice of IH
07-11-2012, 01:21 PM
Being hung up on Willingham is likely a waste of time. The Twins aren't listening.

http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/06/29/twins-open-to-trading-denard-span-not-josh-willingham/

That could be posturing, it is way to early for the Twins to pull anyone off the trading block IMO.

Redsfan320
07-11-2012, 01:23 PM
This (http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=96887) from the Sundeck. Really makes no sense at all unless it would be just to play in LOU.

320

Blitz Dorsey
07-11-2012, 01:33 PM
Shane Victorino as the CF/leadoff hitter the Reds need?

Discuss.

corkedbat
07-11-2012, 02:30 PM
Shane Victorino as the CF/leadoff hitter the Reds need?

Discuss.

I like Victorino, but he's having a very mediocre season and unless the Phils are willing to let hi got for far less than I expect, I'd rather go after someone like Fowler or Spann.

corkedbat
07-11-2012, 02:39 PM
This (http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=96887) from the Sundeck. Really makes no sense at all unless it would be just to play in LOU.

320

Is he physically sound? I had the same thought as one responder - can another team talk to a player unless it is possibly a 72-hour negotiation window? Capps is due about $2.25M for the rest of the year with a $6M option next year (and a $250K buyout). I don't think there's alot to this unless the Reds are going to be big time deals - ie- Chapman to the rotation and Bailey or Leake in a deal for an impact bat- and I don't see that happening. If it did occur, I'd expect a deal that included Spann.

Semi-interesting factoid: Matt's middle name is Dicus.

bucksfan2
07-11-2012, 02:59 PM
I like Victorino, but he's having a very mediocre season and unless the Phils are willing to let hi got for far less than I expect, I'd rather go after someone like Fowler or Spann.

I could really care less about a mediocre season. Philly has been a disaster this season and I am sure that can weight on its players.

Just last season Victorino put up a .355 OBP. That would look real nice replacing .298 out of the leadoff spot. He also is a switch hitter who would give the Reds their 3rd legit left handed hitter. It would take more than a bag of balls to get the deal done, but Victorion of 2011 would be a boost to this Reds team.

REDREAD
07-11-2012, 03:07 PM
Shane Victorino as the CF/leadoff hitter the Reds need?

Discuss.

Yes, that would be a great addition, provided the Reds don't have to drastically overpay. If he could be had for a couple of prospects below the Reds top 5.. most definitely yes.
Historically, OF do not cost that much at the tradedeadline.. It might be different this year however as a number of contenders need help in the OF.
Still, he should not be that expensive to acquire.

Mario-Rijo
07-11-2012, 03:14 PM
What about landing Mark McGwire and the 2002 version of Scott Rolen for peanuts? Also,Jeff Weaver and Ronnie Belliard contributed in the 2006 playoffs.

The Cardinals farm system at the time all were acquired was considered "barren" and too devoid of talent to acquire any player of significance, but WJ got it done.

Sure, WJ has his faults, but the fact that he was able to continually supplement his big league roster utilizing what was perceived as a much weaker farm system than today's Reds farm system tells me that he should be able to acquire this team some help at the deadline.

While true Walt didn't have the salary restrictions in St. Louis that he does in Cincy. Which is why we don't see him making many deals with the Reds.

RedlegJake
07-11-2012, 03:33 PM
This (http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=96887) from the Sundeck. Really makes no sense at all unless it would be just to play in LOU.

320

It makes SOME sense if Capps is part of a package sending reliever(s) from Cincy to Minny for Capps and Span and/or Willingham, otherwise, as just Capps it makes no sense at all

redsmetz
07-11-2012, 04:15 PM
Is he physically sound? I had the same thought as one responder - can another team talk to a player unless it is possibly a 72-hour negotiation window? Capps is due about $2.25M for the rest of the year with a $6M option next year (and a $250K buyout). I don't think there's alot to this unless the Reds are going to be big time deals - ie- Chapman to the rotation and Bailey or Leake in a deal for an impact bat- and I don't see that happening. If it did occur, I'd expect a deal that included Spann.

Semi-interesting factoid: Matt's middle name is Dicus.

The Reds absolutely could not have spoken to him. The windows where such a conversation is permitted is only after a trade has been agreed to pending action on the player's part. I'd suggest this is bogus regarding the Red having spoken to him as that would clearly be tampering.

redsmetz
07-11-2012, 04:33 PM
On MLBTraderumor's Live Chat just now, someone asked where Juan Pierre might be playing come the end of the month. He wrote

I do think the Reds make some sense. The Reds might also check in with Boston on guys like Nava and Sweeney given Boston's upcoming roster crunch. Cincy could use a lefty hitting outfielder to limit Sutton's exposure against right-handed pitching.

I then asked what he meant by Sutton and he gave OPS stats and said a player could help out with that. I then asked who "Sutton" was and he corrected him self, noting he meant Stubbs.

klw
07-11-2012, 04:46 PM
Should we have a separate thread for reporting rumors without discussion akin to our spring training thread?

Blitz Dorsey
07-11-2012, 04:49 PM
Should we have a separate thread for reporting rumors without discussion akin to our spring training thread?

I don't think so. This one seems to be flowing well.

redsmetz
07-11-2012, 04:59 PM
On MLBTraderumor's Live Chat just now, someone asked where Juan Pierre might be playing come the end of the month. He wrote

I do think the Reds make some sense. The Reds might also check in with Boston on guys like Nava and Sweeney given Boston's upcoming roster crunch. Cincy could use a lefty hitting outfielder to limit Sutton's exposure against right-handed pitching.

I then asked what he meant by Sutton and he gave OPS stats and said a player could help out with that. I then asked who "Sutton" was and he corrected him self, noting he meant Stubbs.

He finished the chat with this, "(My bad re. Sutton-Stubbs, btw)".

Brutus
07-11-2012, 05:11 PM
The Reds absolutely could not have spoken to him. The windows where such a conversation is permitted is only after a trade has been agreed to pending action on the player's part. I'd suggest this is bogus regarding the Red having spoken to him as that would clearly be tampering.

They actually could have if the Twins gave written permission. In the MLR, teams are forbidden from tampering but any club can waive this rule by simply writing MLB allowing for contract discussions to take place.

So theoretically, if the Reds or any club wanted to make a trade on the condition they worked out a contract prior to execution, they could do so if the club gives permission.

I'm not saying I believe this rumor, but it's not impossible.

RedlegJake
07-11-2012, 05:14 PM
I don't really believe the Capps rumor - no way he'd talk to a stranger about something like that in mid season anyway, even if permission was given.

OesterPoster
07-11-2012, 05:22 PM
And the logistics make no sense either. Why would Capps have been in Huntsville this afternoon to catch a flight? He pitched for Ft. Myers on Monday night, and he's supposed to pitch for them in Clearwater tonight.

RedEye
07-11-2012, 05:25 PM
I don't understand why anyone would want Willingham over Upton, who is younger and more productive. The only sound argument I have heard so far might be money -- but how do people know for sure that Bob is done spending? I don't recall reading him say anywhere that "that's it, we're done."

IslandRed
07-11-2012, 05:49 PM
And the logistics make no sense either. Why would Capps have been in Huntsville this afternoon to catch a flight? He pitched for Ft. Myers on Monday night, and he's supposed to pitch for them in Clearwater tonight.

That, and Minnesota's AA affiliate doesn't even play in the Southern League.

jhu1321
07-11-2012, 05:49 PM
I don't understand why anyone would want Willingham over Upton, who is younger and more productive. The only sound argument I have heard so far might be money -- but how do people know for sure that Bob is done spending? I don't recall reading him say anywhere that "that's it, we're done."

I'm assuming we'd have to give up our top pitching prospects for Upton...... not as much for Willingham.

Vottomatic
07-11-2012, 06:06 PM
Meh. Reds aren't trading anyone.

I don't know anyone who directly works for the Reds. But I have a friend of a friend thing going where they get info from someone who works for the Reds. Basically his word is that he doesn't see Bob adding payroll. Nor does he think Bob will part with Hamilton, Cingrani or Corcino. Apparently Bob doesn't like trading his gold prospects. This snitch really thinks they have nothing to deal and won't deal the golden ones, and that they can't add payroll.

But then again, the snitch/source really had nothing concrete, just generalizations. When asked about the Matt Capps rumor, he didn't know anything about it. But surmised that maybe Chapman gets moved into the rotation, Capps gets added to close, and Leake or Bailey get dealt since Bob doesn't want to trade Hamilton, Corcino, or Cingrani.

Take it for what it's worth. Nothing concrete there, just some guessing on his part.

Blitz Dorsey
07-11-2012, 06:11 PM
Meh. Reds aren't trading anyone.

I don't know anyone who directly works for the Reds. But I have a friend of a friend thing going where they get info from someone who works for the Reds. Basically his word is that he doesn't see Bob adding payroll. Nor does he think Bob will part with Hamilton, Cingrani or Corcino. Apparently Bob doesn't like trading his gold prospects. This snitch really thinks they have nothing to deal and won't deal the golden ones, and that they can't add payroll.

But then again, the snitch/source really had nothing concrete, just generalizations. When asked about the Matt Capps rumor, he didn't know anything about it. But surmised that maybe Chapman gets moved into the rotation, Capps gets added to close, and Leake or Bailey get dealt since Bob doesn't want to trade Hamilton, Corcino, or Cingrani.

Take it for what it's worth. Nothing concrete there, just some guessing on his part.

Why is he so against trading Cingrani who is merely our 10th-best prospect?

[sarcasm off]

Kc61
07-11-2012, 06:19 PM
Meh. Reds aren't trading anyone.

I don't know anyone who directly works for the Reds. But I have a friend of a friend thing going where they get info from someone who works for the Reds. Basically his word is that he doesn't see Bob adding payroll. Nor does he think Bob will part with Hamilton, Cingrani or Corcino. Apparently Bob doesn't like trading his gold prospects. This snitch really thinks they have nothing to deal and won't deal the golden ones, and that they can't add payroll.

But then again, the snitch/source really had nothing concrete, just generalizations. When asked about the Matt Capps rumor, he didn't know anything about it. But surmised that maybe Chapman gets moved into the rotation, Capps gets added to close, and Leake or Bailey get dealt since Bob doesn't want to trade Hamilton, Corcino, or Cingrani.

Take it for what it's worth. Nothing concrete there, just some guessing on his part.


Bob traded a number of top prospects last off-season.

Reds will make a move, I have no doubt. May not be for a Justin Upton, but the needs are too glaring.

Vottomatic
07-11-2012, 06:20 PM
no message/double post

Vottomatic
07-11-2012, 06:21 PM
Why is he so against trading Cingrani who is merely our 10th-best prospect?

[sarcasm off]

Again. Please don't think this guy knows. Sounded like alot of speculation to me or gut feeling. Just makes for more conversation if nothing else.

mdccclxix
07-11-2012, 06:22 PM
Meh. Reds aren't trading anyone.

I don't know anyone who directly works for the Reds. But I have a friend of a friend thing going where they get info from someone who works for the Reds. Basically his word is that he doesn't see Bob adding payroll. Nor does he think Bob will part with Hamilton, Cingrani or Corcino. Apparently Bob doesn't like trading his gold prospects. This snitch really thinks they have nothing to deal and won't deal the golden ones, and that they can't add payroll.

But then again, the snitch/source really had nothing concrete, just generalizations. When asked about the Matt Capps rumor, he didn't know anything about it. But surmised that maybe Chapman gets moved into the rotation, Capps gets added to close, and Leake or Bailey get dealt since Bob doesn't want to trade Hamilton, Corcino, or Cingrani.

Take it for what it's worth. Nothing concrete there, just some guessing on his part.

I believe every rumor written, as I believe it is that time of year - and it is good for this type of thread. I'll look again towards another JohnnySmith28 or whoever else would like to come forward with credible stories. Credible in the sense that it could happen on earth. Please, anyone, impart your stories from people in the know or otherwise. The speculation is always worth at least a moment of imagining. This year, let it be that Walt actually verifies our interest in stories about an improved team and writes his own for us to enjoy. I'll look forward to the very seductive "We haven't spoken with any teams recently." Even that will do for a few pages on this thread.

Vottomatic
07-11-2012, 06:30 PM
Bob traded a number of top prospects last off-season.

Reds will make a move, I have no doubt. May not be for a Justin Upton, but the needs are too glaring.

They traded 2 former #1 prospects that were blocked by Votto and Mez. They wanted to get rid of Volquez. And they threw in a quality reliever........and the Reds bullpen is still strong without Boxberger. They didn't part with anything that was part of any future plans for the major league team.

It would be harder to part with Hamilton and his hype. And with Arroyo gone after 2013, Corcino and Cingrani offer cheap options as his replacement.......and small market teams have to think that way.

Vottomatic
07-11-2012, 06:31 PM
I believe every rumor written, as I believe it is that time of year - and it is good for this type of thread. I'll look again towards another JohnnySmith28 or whoever else would like to come forward with credible stories. Credible in the sense that it could happen on earth. Please, anyone, impart your stories from people in the know or otherwise. The speculation is always worth at least a moment of imagining. This year, let it be that Walt actually verifies our interest in stories about an improved team and writes his own for us to enjoy. I'll look forward to the very seductive "We haven't spoken with any teams recently." Even that will do for a few pages on this thread.

I usually do too. But frankly, I didn't think this guy gave much information. Mostly "guessing".

Kc61
07-11-2012, 06:44 PM
They traded 2 former #1 prospects that were blocked by Votto and Mez. They wanted to get rid of Volquez. And they threw in a quality reliever........and the Reds bullpen is still strong without Boxberger. They didn't part with anything that was part of any future plans for the major league team.

It would be harder to part with Hamilton and his hype. And with Arroyo gone after 2013, Corcino and Cingrani offer cheap options as his replacement.......and small market teams have to think that way.

They traded valuable guys last off-season, whether blocked or not. And I think they will trade good prospects again if necessary at the deadline.

Not Hamilton. I do not think they will trade Hamilton.

But the others are fair game. Corcino, Cingrani, Lotzkar, Gregorius, all fair game. The Reds didn't devote themselves to dramatically improving this past off-season to sit back now. I expect player movement.

Blitz Dorsey
07-11-2012, 06:50 PM
They traded valuable guys last off-season, whether blocked or not. And I think they will trade good prospects again if necessary at the deadline.

Not Hamilton. I do not think they will trade Hamilton.

But the others are fair game. Corcino, Cingrani, Lotzkar, Gregorius, all fair game. The Reds didn't devote themselves to dramatically improving this past off-season to sit back now. I expect player movement.

The four players you just mentioned are not on the same level IMO. I could see Walt/B-Cast not wanting to trade Corcino or Cingrani, but I COULD see them willing to trade Lotzkar and Gregorius. The latter is blocked by Cozart anyway. (I happen to think highly of Cozart. I'll throw that bias in there in the spirit of full disclosure. He'll be the Reds' starting SS for the next decade or close.)

mdccclxix
07-11-2012, 06:55 PM
They traded valuable guys last off-season, whether blocked or not. And I think they will trade good prospects again if necessary at the deadline.

Not Hamilton. I do not think they will trade Hamilton.

But the others are fair game. Corcino, Cingrani, Lotzkar, Gregorius, all fair game. The Reds didn't devote themselves to dramatically improving this past off-season to sit back now. I expect player movement.

The one other thing that makes me think anything can happen is they are 1 position player away from locking down the Reds starting 8 for 3-4 years. Adding a RHB cleanup LF or a high OBP CF takes all the guesswork off the FO. The minors will not be as important for a while other than for depth, payroll relief, and the occasional irrepressible prospect.

Scrap Irony
07-11-2012, 08:32 PM
The one other thing that makes me think anything can happen is they are 1 position player away from locking down the Reds starting 8 for 3-4 years. Adding a RHB cleanup LF or a high OBP CF takes all the guesswork off the FO. The minors will not be as important for a while other than for depth, payroll relief, and the occasional irrepressible prospect.

That's a good point. Add in four of the five starting spots in the rotation (all five if Chapman is added) are filled until at least 2015 and at least five spots in the pen are also taken care of until that same year.

The Reds have a ton of cost certainty, a very young core, and need the farm only to produce cheaper alternatives of what's already in the Queen City (and league average, at least).

I hadn't thought of it in those terms, but it makes sense.

Benihana
07-11-2012, 08:38 PM
That's a good point. Add in four of the five starting spots in the rotation (all five if Chapman is added) are filled until at least 2015 and at least five spots in the pen are also taken care of until that same year.

The Reds have a ton of cost certainty, a very young core, and need the farm only to produce cheaper alternatives of what's already in the Queen City (and league average, at least).

I hadn't thought of it in those terms, but it makes sense.

So go out and get Upton, allow our best prospect to take over CF when he's ready in 2014, and sit back while every position on the field is accounted for through 2015 and there is still a strong prospect pipeline/next generation developing in the lower minors. What else do we need all those guys blocked in AAA for during that time period (other than depth)?

CrackerJack
07-11-2012, 09:04 PM
Any actual rumors? <shrug>

jhu1321
07-11-2012, 09:48 PM
So go out and get Upton, allow our best prospect to take over CF when he's ready in 2014, and sit back while every position on the field is accounted for through 2015 and there is still a strong prospect pipeline/next generation developing in the lower minors. What else do we need all those guys blocked in AAA for during that time period (other than depth)?

Because Upton would require Hamilton plus others.

DGullett35
07-11-2012, 09:53 PM
■The Red Sox could trade Ryan Kalish, Ryan Sweeney or Daniel Nava once Carl Crawford and Jacoby Ellsbury are activated from the disabled list. The Reds match up well with Boston on paper.

This was from MLB Trade Rumors today. Id take Sweeney if the deal was right. Also once again they said Pierre would be a perfect fit for the Reds. Another guy who hasn't been menioned on here is Peter Bourjos from Anahiem. Hes only 25 and has the speed to bat leadoff and can play anywhere in the OF. Im not sure about his OBP or other stats but I remember him being pretty good last year. The Angles just have to many guys in there OF to play them all.

joshnky
07-11-2012, 09:55 PM
Any actual rumors? <shrug>

Not in this thread.

marcshoe
07-11-2012, 10:14 PM
Bourjos' obp this season is. 291. Last year was .327.

DGullett35
07-11-2012, 11:05 PM
Bourjos' obp this season is. 291. Last year was .327.

Meh. Thats better than what we have right now though. Maybe its a little low because he doesn't play every day. IMO we need a middle of the order bat more than a guy at the top of the order and the reason is we can always plug DatDude in the leadoff spot. He's said that he prefers the leadoff spot to any spot in the order anyways.

Vottomatic
07-12-2012, 04:40 PM
Meh. Thats better than what we have right now though. Maybe its a little low because he doesn't play every day. IMO we need a middle of the order bat more than a guy at the top of the order and the reason is we can always plug DatDude in the leadoff spot. He's said that he prefers the leadoff spot to any spot in the order anyways.

Alot of people forget that if we trade for a cleanup hitter that BP moves back to leadoff.

Scrap Irony
07-12-2012, 04:45 PM
Ellbury takes care of CF, though, and makes the lineup much more potent:
Phillips 2B
Ellsbury CF
Votto 1B
Ludwick LF
Bruce RF
Fralen 3B
Mesigan C
Cozart SS

Adds speed as well.

RedlegJake
07-12-2012, 04:47 PM
All Bourjous really has going for him is incredible speed. Maybe faster than Stubbs. Only a marginal upgrade as a hitter though. I really think Stubbs should be a better hitter than Bourjous but he isn't. Anyway I don't see it as much of a jump. Didn't look at Peter B.'s minor league numbers to be fair - maybe his pedigree is a lot better and his part time role is holding him back. Others may know that better than me.

Scrap Irony
07-12-2012, 06:08 PM
Bourjos' minor league numbers are much better than Stubbs', but he played in hitter's leagues for almost his entire minor league career. (This is one reason LAA's minor leaguers always seem to trot out ridiculous statistics.)

Because he's younger, cheaper, and less K-heavy, I'd much rather have him than Stubbs, but I suspect the offensive numbers would be close enough that dealing anything good for him would be a net waste. An "upside" C prospect (Juan Duran, for example) might work for both parties.

11larkin11
07-12-2012, 11:05 PM
We have two threads beside each other on Trade Targets and Reds Trade Rumors. Can we keep one for actual rumors so its easier to follow like the Spring Training Updates, or can we merge the two?

Redsfan320
07-12-2012, 11:54 PM
We have two threads beside each other on Trade Targets and Reds Trade Rumors. Can we keep one for actual rumors so its easier to follow like the Spring Training Updates, or can we merge the two?


Agreed. Maybe just keep this one for real, sourced rumors; and the other one for discussion, wishes, ideas, etc.

320

The Voice of IH
07-13-2012, 01:45 AM
If you google Juan Pierre and hit the news tab, the Reds are all over the links. The links range from National News sources to local Philadelphia and Cincinnati media.

For instance This Link to Comcast Philadelphia. (http://www.csnphilly.com/baseball-philadelphia-phillies/phillies-talk/MLB-Rumor-Rundown-Reds-like-Pierre?blockID=736628&feedID=693)

I had this discussion on Fay's blog with a few people today. There seems to be this negative connotation from Reds fans when it comes to Pierre. But I am not sure why.

Pierre is having a career year. His OBP is .344 I believe and his average is above .300. I don't know if he can keep it up for the rest of the year, but I've watched several Phillies games on MLB.tv and he looks good.

Pierre can play all outfield positions, and can play center field despite not playing it at all this year. He's old, but he still has a lot of speed. He's a little reckless on the base paths but the Reds don't need him to steal bases like the Phillies did in the first half of the year. If he gets on in front of Votto that's all we need.

He's going to come cheap. He is a rental so Philly can not ask too much for him. A couple mid level prospects should be able to get the job done. His contract is GREAT for the Reds. They do not need to marry the guy, but instead can use him this year to fill a needed position and play it by ear the next. Who knows, maybe he can be a buffer between now and when Hamilton is ready to take his spot on the big league team in 2014.

He also has been there before. He was apart of the 2004 World Champion Florida Marlins. I love that about guys, I want people who are not new to the spotlight, especially on a team that is as young as the Reds are now.

I am trying to find something that makes people wary of him (because there are a lot of people who are). Please explain your hesitation if you will.

top6
07-13-2012, 01:56 AM
If you google Juan Pierre and hit the news tab, the Reds are all over the links. The links range from National News sources to local Philadelphia and Cincinnati media.

For instance This Link to Comcast Philadelphia. (http://www.csnphilly.com/baseball-philadelphia-phillies/phillies-talk/MLB-Rumor-Rundown-Reds-like-Pierre?blockID=736628&feedID=693)

I had this discussion on Fay's blog with a few people today. There seems to be this negative connotation from Reds fans when it comes to Pierre. But I am not sure why.

Pierre is having a career year. His OBP is .344 I believe and his average is above .300. I don't know if he can keep it up for the rest of the year, but I've watched several Phillies games on MLB.tv and he looks good.

Pierre can play all outfield positions, and can play center field despite not playing it at all this year. He's old, but he still has a lot of speed. He's a little reckless on the base paths but the Reds don't need him to steal bases like the Phillies did in the first half of the year. If he gets on in front of Votto that's all we need.

He's going to come cheap. He is a rental so Philly can not ask too much for him. A couple mid level prospects should be able to get the job done. His contract is GREAT for the Reds. They do not need to marry the guy, but instead can use him this year to fill a needed position and play it by ear the next. Who knows, maybe he can be a buffer between now and when Hamilton is ready to take his spot on the big league team in 2014.

He also has been there before. He was apart of the 2004 World Champion Florida Marlins. I love that about guys, I want people who are not new to the spotlight, especially on a team that is as young as the Reds are now.

I am trying to find something that makes people wary of him (because there are a lot of people who are). Please explain your hesitation if you will.

Well I think the answer is that Juan Pierre was one of the most overpaid players in baseball, particularly from a sabermertics point of view (and really any sensible view). Also, I recall Fire Joe Morgan writing a few hilarious posts making fun of articles suggesting that Juan Pierre was actually quite good. In general, he was just a good example of what many consider to be the "wrong" way of looking at the game--i.e., a lead-off hitter who was fast but didn't really get on base that much, and didn't really bring much else to the table. In other words, he is and was the type of player Dusty LOVES, and loves to give as many at bats as possible to.

However, as I think somebody on this thread already said, I was surprised when I looked and saw how decent his numbers actually were compared to what the Reds currently have at the top of the order. While that is certainly damning with faint praise, you are right that for what we would have to give up and spend it is probably a deal worth pursuing.

I think this may also be a classic case of people saying that something (or in this case someone) is overrated for so long that he has now looped back around to being underrated.

The Voice of IH
07-13-2012, 02:02 AM
Well I think the answer is that Juan Pierre was one of the most overpaid players in baseball, particularly from a sabermertics point of view (and really any sensible view). Also, I recall Fire Joe Morgan writing a few hilarious posts making fun of articles suggesting that Juan Pierre was actually quite good. In general, he was just a good example of what many consider to be the "wrong" way of looking at the game--i.e., a lead-off hitter who was fast but didn't really get on base that much, and didn't really bring much else to the table. In other words, he is and was the type of player Dusty LOVES, and loves to give as many at bats as possible to.

However, as I think somebody on this thread already said, I was surprised when I looked and saw how decent his numbers actually were compared to what the Reds currently have at the top of the order. While that is certainly damning with faint praise, you are right that for what we would have to give up and spend it is probably a deal worth pursuing.

I think this may also be a classic case of people saying that something (or in this case someone) is overrated for so long that he has now looped back around to being underrated.

Yeah, I have to admit that I do not know too much of the history of the guy but I can see how saber metric people would feel the way they do about his past.

But I too think this year he has been well worth his $800K contract :D. I feel that if they can figure a way to make a deal they should pull the trigger, he would be a good edition to the club house and fill a need that we all agree needs filling.

top6
07-13-2012, 02:06 AM
Yeah, I have to admit that I do not know too much of the history of the guy but I can see how saber metric people would feel the way they do about his past.

But I too think this year he has been well worth his $800K contract :D. I feel that if they can figure a way to make a deal they should pull the trigger, he would be a good edition to the club house and fill a need that we all agree needs filling.

Yeah, I can't believe I'm now agreeing that Juan Pierre would be a good pickup, but here we are.

Some of those Fire Joe Morgan articles, btw (man I used to love that blog):

http://www.firejoemorgan.com/2007/03/juan-pierre-compares-himself-to-god-and.html

http://www.firejoemorgan.com/2007/06/message-from-juan-pierre.html

http://www.firejoemorgan.com/2008/03/this-column-is-eternal.html

The Voice of IH
07-13-2012, 02:29 AM
Yeah, one last thing before I hit the sack.

His .344 OBP is not FANTASTIC. But it would put him fourth highest on the Reds. Also, he would be a guy that Baker absolutely would put in front of Votto (unlike Frazier or Hanigan).

mth123
07-13-2012, 02:51 AM
Yeah, one last thing before I hit the sack.

His .344 OBP is not FANTASTIC. But it would put him fourth highest on the Reds. Also, he would be a guy that Baker absolutely would put in front of Votto (unlike Frazier or Hanigan).

The problem is that he's limited to LF. If he could play CF, where he'd be a much bigger upgrade, he'd be among my top targets, but a huge part of the equation in upgrading this team is getting Stubbs out of the line-up against RHP. Acquiring Pierre doesn't do that. His OBP would help, but the huge black hole that is Stubbs vs. RHP is this team's top offensive problem IMO. That makes it a question of opportunity cost. If the resources used to acquire Pierre could be utilized in a package to acquire an upgrade in CF, then I'd pass on Pierre until I'm sure I couldn't get the CF option instead. An upgrade from Stubbs to Pierre, assuming Pierre could be competent iin CF, could be a nice boon, but to get an equal upgrade by replacing Ludwick in LF, you'd need a .850+ OPS guy to play LF.

The Voice of IH
07-13-2012, 02:58 AM
The problem is that he's limited to LF. If he could play CF, where he'd be a much bigger upgrade, he'd be among my top targets, but a huge part of the equation in upgrading this team is getting Stubbs out of the line-up against RHP. Acquiring Pierre doesn't do that. His OBP would help, but the huge black hole that is Stubbs vs. RHP is this team's top offensive problem IMO. That makes it a question of opportunity cost. If the resources used to acquire Pierre could be utilized in a package to acquire an upgrade in CF, then I'd pass on Pierre until I'm sure I couldn't get the CF option instead. An upgrade from Stubbs to Pierre, assuming Pierre could be competent iin CF, could be a nice boon, but to get an equal upgrade by replacing Ludwick in LF, you'd need a .850+ OPS guy to play LF.

Can you please show me where it says he can not play center anymore? I read your post in the other thread, and I have been searching around trying to find some quote or another that says he can not play center. I was under the impression that he was not playing center because Victorino is on the team.

He has not played center this year, and has only played center in 50 games in the last three. But once again Alex Rios was out there for the White Sox.

He has over 1200 starts in center in his career.

EDIT: In This Article About the Situation (http://www.rantsports.com/philadelphia-phillies/2012/07/07/philadelphia-phillies-looking-to-trade-outfielder-juan-pierre/), the writer targeted Stubbs as a black hole. And he even said that the other two starters (Ludwick and Bruce) have been good. I guess I think he alludes that Pierre would be a good replacement for Stubbs.

mth123
07-13-2012, 03:07 AM
Can you please show me where it says he can not play center anymore? I read your post in the other thread, and I have been searching around trying to find some quote or another that says he can not play center. I was under the impression that he was not playing center because Victorino is on the team.

He has not played center this year, and has only played center in 50 games in the last three. But once again Alex Rios was out there for the White Sox.

He has over 1200 starts in center in his career.

He can't throw anymore. LF, with the short throw to 3B, is his only option. If he's in CF, pretty much every hit to Cf wih a runner on 1B will result in the runner going to 3rd.

The Voice of IH
07-13-2012, 03:30 AM
He can't throw anymore. LF, with the short throw to 3B, is his only option. If he's in CF, pretty much every hit to Cf wih a runner on 1B will result in the runner going to 3rd.

Oh, I did not know that.

mth123
07-13-2012, 03:51 AM
Oh, I did not know that.

That's been my understanding for a while. The article you posted seems to suggest that he may be an option in CF. If his arm has recovered making him an option in CF, I'm in your camp. Get him in here platooning with Stubbs tomorrow.

I just think its pretty telling that they have Jason Pridie playing CF when Victorino sits instead of sliding Pierre over and playing Mayberry in left. Pierre hasn't played any significant time in CF since 2007. He played 116 innings in CF in 2008 and 102 inning in CF in 2009 and none since. I'm pretty confident that the article is not realistic and that he's not an option for CF.

powersackers
07-13-2012, 03:57 AM
That, and Minnesota's AA affiliate doesn't even play in the Southern League.

You'll find a lot of pitchers at the Birmingham airport in and out for day trips. That's where Dr. james Andrews has his practice. Huntsville is 100 miles from there so I am not for certain if that's the case here.

WildcatFan
07-13-2012, 01:24 PM
Morosi: Reds interested in Mark Kotsay

http://mlbbuzz.yardbarker.com/blog/mlbbuzz/article/sources_reds_interested_in_valuable_kotsay/11213344

Left handed, at times posts high OBPs, veteran (particularly useful if Rolen doesn't finish the year). Not a bad target IMO.

OldXOhio
07-13-2012, 01:30 PM
Morosi: Reds interested in Mark Kotsay

http://mlbbuzz.yardbarker.com/blog/mlbbuzz/article/sources_reds_interested_in_valuable_kotsay/11213344

Left handed, at times posts high OBPs, veteran (particularly useful if Rolen doesn't finish the year). Not a bad target IMO.

Agreed. I'd think that if this deal got done, it wouldn't be the last, unlike acquiring a bigger name.

WildcatFan
07-13-2012, 01:35 PM
Agreed. I'd think that if this deal got done, it wouldn't be the last, unlike acquiring a bigger name.

It seems a platoon with him and Ludwick would be just as productive as any name Walt could find out there, certainly more than Quentin or DeJesus.

Unfortunately, it seems every person in the franchise thinks the only two platoon players are Charlie Sheen and Willem Dafoe.

OldXOhio
07-13-2012, 01:45 PM
It seems a platoon with him and Ludwick would be just as productive as any name Walt could find out there, certainly more than Quentin or DeJesus.

Unfortunately, it seems every person in the franchise thinks the only two platoon players are Charlie Sheen and Willem Dofoe.

I guess that's what remains to be seen. My initial thought when Kotsay's name came up was he'd satisfy the LH hitter off the bench with occasional spot starts.

RedEye
07-13-2012, 02:13 PM
Our dreams: Upton, Ellsbury

Our hopes: Victorino, Quentin, DeJesus, Span

Our fear: Pierre

Our reality: Kotsay

cumberlandreds
07-13-2012, 02:14 PM
I guess that's what remains to be seen. My initial thought when Kotsay's name came up was he'd satisfy the LH hitter off the bench with occasional spot starts.

That was my first thoughts too. He would strengthen the bench but just another warm body to sit there would do that. If Kotsay didn't cost much I'd get him.

Scrap Irony
07-13-2012, 02:21 PM
I think Kotsay makes sense as a PH/ bench guy.

He's not a "fix" for CF, however.

I don't think this would be the end. Hopefully not.

PickOff
07-13-2012, 02:29 PM
Our dreams: Upton, Ellsbury

Our hopes: Victorino, Quentin, DeJesus, Span

Our fear: Pierre

Our reality: Kotsay

:laugh: You make me chuckle. I'd prefer our hopes or dreams turn into reality. Kotsay might make the Reds just a hair better. And that is a mighty big might.

bucksfan2
07-13-2012, 02:32 PM
:laugh: You make me chuckle. I'd prefer our hopes or dreams turn into reality. Kotsay might make the Reds just a hair better. And that is a mighty big might.

The Reds have no LH bats of the bench and when the did they brought a guy who had no business being in the majors.

If the Reds make a move for Kotsay I think another move would have to happen. Either Cairo is DFA'd or Heisey is traded.

757690
07-13-2012, 02:37 PM
Well I think the answer is that Juan Pierre was one of the most overpaid players in baseball, particularly from a sabermertics point of view (and really any sensible view). Also, I recall Fire Joe Morgan writing a few hilarious posts making fun of articles suggesting that Juan Pierre was actually quite good. In general, he was just a good example of what many consider to be the "wrong" way of looking at the game--i.e., a lead-off hitter who was fast but didn't really get on base that much, and didn't really bring much else to the table. In other words, he is and was the type of player Dusty LOVES, and loves to give as many at bats as possible to.



Well, FireJoeMorgan was just flat out wrong if that is what it said. (not the first time. A very entertaining site, but not very good at actual analysis.)

Pierre had a fine OBP, career .345 and four times higher than .360, and he was a plus defender in CF, with a career 5.7 UZR/150 there. Pierre was definitely overpaid, but only because he was getting elite player money when he was just a solid, average to above average CF. He's produced 27.6 WAR in his career. Not too shabby, and not worthy of the ridicule that FireJoeMorgan heaped on him.

PickOff
07-13-2012, 02:44 PM
The Reds have no LH bats of the bench and when the did they brought a guy who had no business being in the majors.

If the Reds make a move for Kotsay I think another move would have to happen. Either Cairo is DFA'd or Heisey is traded.

Another move would have to happen if the Reds plan on making any real noise. I for one would be happy to give away the farm for Upton, if he really is to be had. Who know what it would take to get him. I'd also happily part with Bailey and Stubbs or Heisey.

The opportunity this year and the next 2-3 years should be siezed if all it means is giving up unproven minor leaguers. I'd prefer to hold onto Frazier, though, because he factors in now to the Red's success.

The Voice of IH
07-13-2012, 03:43 PM
Morosi: Reds interested in Mark Kotsay

http://mlbbuzz.yardbarker.com/blog/mlbbuzz/article/sources_reds_interested_in_valuable_kotsay/11213344

Left handed, at times posts high OBPs, veteran (particularly useful if Rolen doesn't finish the year). Not a bad target IMO.

So far what I have gathered is that the Reds are really interested in corner outfielders.

They have now been linked to Juan Pierre, Mark Kotsay, Ryan Sweeny and Daniel Nava. Only Sweeny has played Center this year, and even then only several games.

Who have the Reds been linked to for center field?

Also, Mark Kotsay...how is his speed? You and I both know our manager, if the guy can't run he ain't hitting in front of Votto.

mth123
07-13-2012, 09:22 PM
Kotsay would be a bench bat. He's probably the best available to the Reds. Giambi would never play with Votto on board and I'm guessing his bat would lose its luster with so few PAs. The Braves aren't trading Eric Hinske. Jim Thome is in the AL. Kotsay should be available, cheap and still is fairly competent as a corner OF. He really shouldn't play more than a day or two a week to stay sharp, but he'd really help late in the game when the Reds are being owned by some righty reliever having his way with the Ludwick through Stubbs 6 through 2 part of the order.

He wouldn't fill their top need, but he'd be an upgrade where one is needed and could at least make the other team make a move.

Raisor
07-13-2012, 09:33 PM
There's only one obvious choice. He'd be a hit with marty, he's got a young body.

The one.

The only.

Steve Finley.

He will cure what ails the Reds.

757690
07-13-2012, 09:45 PM
So far what I have gathered is that the Reds are really interested in corner outfielders.

They have now been linked to Juan Pierre, Mark Kotsay, Ryan Sweeny and Daniel Nava. Only Sweeny has played Center this year, and even then only several games.

Who have the Reds been linked to for center field?

Also, Mark Kotsay...how is his speed? You and I both know our manager, if the guy can't run he ain't hitting in front of Votto.

I doubt the Reds acquire anything more than a role player.

Btw, Kotsay is faster than many of the hitters who have hit in front of Votto during his career.

757690
07-13-2012, 09:52 PM
http://cincinnati.com/blogs/reds/2012/07/13/reds-have-a-long-trade-wish-list/


Reds general manager Walt Jocketty has a pretty extensive shopping list as the non-waiver July 31 trade deadline approaches.

Wed like to upgrade leadoff, cleanup and the bench and if he can help our pitching a little bit, he said.

But he knows it will difficult to address all or any of those needs.

Im not sure of any of it is possible, he said. But thats what were trying to do.

Tom Servo
07-13-2012, 10:36 PM
Wed like to upgrade leadoff, cleanup and the bench and if he can help our pitching a little bit, he said.
http://www.chlomo.org/chan/chloe/src/1339103431833.png


Im not sure of any of it is possible, he said.
http://users.stopgame.ru/uploads/images/267267/form/1330875124.jpg

corkedbat
07-13-2012, 10:39 PM
http://cincinnati.com/blogs/reds/2012/07/13/reds-have-a-long-trade-wish-list/

Nice to see Walt at least acknowledge all three as probelm spots. Would love Kotsay as a bench bat if the price isn't too high.

Vottomatic
07-16-2012, 12:27 AM
Walt was interviewed on the pregame about trades and said the obvious, that with so many teams still in it for the wild card, he doesn't expect anything to happen until the deadline.

OesterPoster
07-16-2012, 08:57 AM
According to mlbtraderumors, the Reds were one of the umpteen teams with a scout at Francisco Liriano's start on Friday...though I assume they were there to watch Denard Span or some other pieces.

Scrap Irony
07-16-2012, 11:07 AM
Lots of smoke to a Minnesota deal, fwiw. Doumit, Revere, Span, Willingham-- any of them could help Cincinnati. Doumit as a LF/DH/C would be particularly fun to see. I'm guessing a good middle infield prospect and a middling pitching prospect (DiDi Gregorius? Kyle Lotzkar? JC Sulburan?) gets the Twins not only to deal him, but to pay the rest of this season's contract.

RedlegJake
07-17-2012, 08:31 PM
A Minnesota deal could have multiple parts on both sides. Liriano, Capps, Span, Willingham, Revere, Doumit

The Twins would possibly have interest in Gregorious, Lotzkar, Corcino, Cingrani, Lutz, LaMarre, Hamilton, Stubbs, Heisey, any of the relievers and maybe even Navarro or Hanigan

Scrap Irony
07-17-2012, 08:44 PM
Gregorius, Stubbs, and Mesoraco for Revere and Doumit.

Twins grab their starting SS, CF, and C for next season for under $3 million, move their most valuable asset to DH at least part-time, and unload spare parts.

Reds grab a starting CF who has decent obp and a great glove (not to mention the Kentucky connection) and a part-time catcher and pinch hitter to platoon with Hanigan. (If need be, Navarro can come up as Votto rehabs, with Doumit and Frazier sharing 1B, Doumit playing some in LF, and catching occasionally.)

Cost effective this year and for the foreseeable future.

757690
07-17-2012, 08:50 PM
Gregorius, Stubbs, and Mesoraco for Revere and Doumit.

Twins grab their starting SS, CF, and C for next season for under $3 million, move their most valuable asset to DH at least part-time, and unload spare parts.

Reds grab a starting CF who has decent obp and a great glove (not to mention the Kentucky connection) and a part-time catcher and pinch hitter to platoon with Hanigan. (If need be, Navarro can come up as Votto rehabs, with Doumit and Frazier sharing 1B, Doumit playing some in LF, and catching occasionally.)

Cost effective this year and for the foreseeable future.

I wouldn't trade Mesoraco for Revere and Doumit, not even close, not even if the Twins threw in Spann.

lollipopcurve
07-17-2012, 08:54 PM
Gregorius, Stubbs, and Mesoraco for Revere and Doumit.

No way. Mesoraco is light years more valuable than Doumit, and Gregorius is likely more valuable than Revere. And Stubbs on top of that? Terrible trade for the REds.

I'm starting to think Didi might be a better bet than Cozart long term. Better defensively, and that lefty bat is going to develop some juice. I would not deal a young SS at this time. Let it play out through this year at least. And no way you deal Mesoraco. Untouchable in my book.

RedlegJake
07-17-2012, 09:10 PM
I love Cozart and really like DiDi. I think AFTER this year the Reds can trade either and have a guy step in and not lose a step. This year they can only trade DiDi without losing a lot. Can't expect a raw rookie to step in right now and take Zack's place. So any deadline trade can include DiDi but not Zack. Seems simple to me. And I disagree Lollipop - no way Gregorious ever develops the power Zack has.

Mesoraco untouchable? No way. Expensive? yes. He'd be involved if the deal was like Giancarlo Stanton. Maybe LoMo. Upton. Otherwise he's not in the deal. Centerpiece of a big deal with Doumit, Willingham, Span and Liriano? Yeah, depending on what else was included I could go there.

klw
07-17-2012, 09:25 PM
I would only send Mes to the Twins if Mauer was coming back and the Twins were paying most of Mauer's salary. Doubt the Twins would do that;)

Patrick Bateman
07-17-2012, 10:07 PM
Gregorius, Stubbs, and Mesoraco for Revere and Doumit.

Twins grab their starting SS, CF, and C for next season for under $3 million, move their most valuable asset to DH at least part-time, and unload spare parts.

Reds grab a starting CF who has decent obp and a great glove (not to mention the Kentucky connection) and a part-time catcher and pinch hitter to platoon with Hanigan. (If need be, Navarro can come up as Votto rehabs, with Doumit and Frazier sharing 1B, Doumit playing some in LF, and catching occasionally.)

Cost effective this year and for the foreseeable future.

So who's catching for now and the next 5 years?

Doumit sure aint. No offense, but that trade is really bad for the Reds.

Vottomatic
07-17-2012, 10:31 PM
Gregorius, Stubbs, and Mesoraco for Revere and Doumit.

Twins grab their starting SS, CF, and C for next season for under $3 million, move their most valuable asset to DH at least part-time, and unload spare parts.

Reds grab a starting CF who has decent obp and a great glove (not to mention the Kentucky connection) and a part-time catcher and pinch hitter to platoon with Hanigan. (If need be, Navarro can come up as Votto rehabs, with Doumit and Frazier sharing 1B, Doumit playing some in LF, and catching occasionally.)

Cost effective this year and for the foreseeable future.

The Reds would get robbed in that trade. I don't like it.

Benihana
07-17-2012, 10:36 PM
Piling on alert:

Scrap, that is a terrible trade for the Reds.

RANDY IN INDY
07-17-2012, 11:43 PM
Piling on alert:

Scrap, that is a terrible trade for the Reds.

Agree. Awful.

Brutus
07-17-2012, 11:47 PM
I wouldn't take Doumit straight up for Mesoraco right now let alone in 2-3 years.

Tom Servo
07-17-2012, 11:50 PM
Yeah Scrap put the stuff from your desk in a box because you're fired as GM after that deal.

Nathan
07-18-2012, 01:12 AM
Didn't Doumit just sign like a 3 year extension recently?

Mario-Rijo
07-18-2012, 06:33 AM
Didn't Doumit just sign like a 3 year extension recently?

2 year ext., at the end of June.

cumberlandreds
07-18-2012, 09:46 AM
You don't want Capps now. I saw this morning on the MLB Network he went to the DL with rotator cuff problems.

Red Rover
07-18-2012, 04:36 PM
The Reds can trade their Competitive Balance Lottery pick (1st round #36) starting tomorrow. They are allowed to trade this pick as long as it is before the end of this season.

redsmetz
07-18-2012, 04:40 PM
The Reds can trade their Competitive Balance Lottery pick (1st round #36) starting tomorrow. They are allowed to trade this pick as long as it is before the end of this season.

It just occurred to me moments ago that perhaps this is what may have been holding up a flurry of trades (other than the usual "deadline" itself). Perhaps some clubs have been waiting to see who will have picks available, where they fall etc. We'll see.

Mario-Rijo
07-18-2012, 04:41 PM
It just occurred to me moments ago that perhaps this is what may have been holding up a flurry of trades (other than the usual "deadline" itself). Perhaps some clubs have been waiting to see who will have picks available, where they fall etc. We'll see.

Yeah I was thinking the same. Glad the Cards got blanked on that front.

RedlegJake
07-18-2012, 04:49 PM
Did they get blanked or are they in the second tier?

Mario-Rijo
07-18-2012, 04:51 PM
Did they get blanked or are they in the second tier?

Blanked....for sure.

RedlegJake
07-18-2012, 04:55 PM
Blanked....for sure.

Heh-heh-heh. Outstanding!

Mario-Rijo
07-18-2012, 05:03 PM
Heh-heh-heh. Outstanding!

After the 1st round:


1 - K.C.
2 - Pitt.
3 - D-Backs
4 - O's
5 - Reds (Or pick # 36)
6 - Marlins

After the 2nd:


1 - SD
2 - Cle.
3 - Col.
4 - A's
5 - Mil.
6 - Det.

RedlegJake
07-18-2012, 05:04 PM
After the 1st round:



After the 2nd:

Thanks very much for that info Mario - I hadn't seen the results yet...great info!

RedEye
07-19-2012, 10:22 PM
Via MLBTR, I saw these two tidbits -- not sure whether they've been posted in this thread already...


The Reds have been looking for a leadoff man and have been scouting Denard Span.


Meanwhile, the Royals are trying to convince the Indians or Reds to take Jeff Francoeur so they can promote Wil Myers from Triple-A.

I would be on board with Span, but Francoeur scares the hell out of me. I think I'd prefer Juan Pierre, actually.

Virginia Beach Reds
07-19-2012, 10:30 PM
Via MLBTR, I saw these two tidbits -- not sure whether they've been posted in this thread already...





I would be on board with Span, but Francoeur scares the hell out of me. I think I'd prefer Juan Pierre, actually.

Denard Span would instantly be the best hitter in the lineup for the next month. He is relatively young. Might cost a bundle as he is still relatively cheep.

Just get a decent bat please. Francoeur isn't a terrible player. Just don't think he's that much different than Ludwick, Heisey, etc.

RedEye
07-19-2012, 11:14 PM
Denard Span would instantly be the best hitter in the lineup for the next month. He is relatively young. Might cost a bundle as he is still relatively cheep.

Just get a decent bat please. Francoeur isn't a terrible player. Just don't think he's that much different than Ludwick, Heisey, etc.

Agreed about Span. But actually, I think Francoeur is a terrible player.

WVRedsFan
07-20-2012, 02:10 AM
If we get Span, I would do a couple of Chapman somersaualts. If we get Francoeur, I'd look the other way.

camisadelgolf
07-20-2012, 02:24 AM
Anyone here have any interest in trading a reliever or prospect for Placido Polanco and cash? Having both Rolen and Frazier on the roster might be overkill at third base, but I don't think there's any doubt that it would make the team better. Polanco's up there in age (turns 37 in October), but his defense is still plus, he gets on base at a decent clip, and he makes a lot of contact.

Plus Plus
07-20-2012, 01:45 PM
Continue all discussion from the previous thread here.

The Voice of IH
07-20-2012, 01:56 PM
I would love to land Duda if he's available, I think he'd mash in GABP. I'd give them Arredondo in a deal in a heartbeat..

I completely agree. Especially with Nick Masset coming back and J.J. Hoover waiting in the wings. Pretty much anybody not named Sean Marshall or Aroldis Chapman in the pen would be available if I was Jocketty.

Mario-Rijo
07-20-2012, 02:07 PM
Another Rockie player I wouldn't mind is Tyler Colvin. He has an .833 OPS outside of Coors (better there), plays all 3 OF spots and 1B and seemingly hits better in the leadoff spot than anywhere else. It could just be a great start by him (and of course it's Coors field) but I have always thought he had the potential to be much better than what he produced in Chicago.

Mario-Rijo
07-20-2012, 02:27 PM
Anyone here have any interest in trading a reliever or prospect for Placido Polanco and cash? Having both Rolen and Frazier on the roster might be overkill at third base, but I don't think there's any doubt that it would make the team better. Polanco's up there in age (turns 37 in October), but his defense is still plus, he gets on base at a decent clip, and he makes a lot of contact.

I'd actually pass and I like the fact he can still give a fairly solid professional AB. Just seems like toast to me.

Benihana
07-20-2012, 02:44 PM
My updated Trade Target wish list (of reportedly available players) for the new thread:

1. Justin Upton, Arizona
2. Dexter Fowler, Colorado
3. Logan Morrison, Miami
4. Lucas Duda, NYMets
5. Denard Span, Minnesota
6. David DeJesus, Cubs

Mario-Rijo
07-20-2012, 02:49 PM
My updated Trade Target wish list (of reportedly available players) for the new thread:

1. Justin Upton, Arizona
2. Dexter Fowler, Colorado
3. Logan Morrison, Miami
4. Lucas Duda, NYMets
5. Denard Span, Minnesota
6. David DeJesus, Cubs

Just curious, why no Chase Headley?

Benihana
07-20-2012, 03:31 PM
Just curious, why no Chase Headley?

I certainly wouldn't be upset if we went after Headley.

However, I think with Frazier/H-Rod/Ludwick in the fold coupled with the likely asking price for Headley, I think the players I mentioned better suit our needs for right now and the future.

In other words, I'd rather spend prospects on getting Upton, Fowler or LoMo. Otherwise, I'd prefer to give up less for Duda, Span or DeJesus.

If we're going to bring in a 3B from the outside for the next year or two, I'd rather sign Kevin Youkilis and keep the prospects.

Scrap Irony
07-20-2012, 04:09 PM
Chris Denorfia is a guy I'd love to see targeted.

He can play all three OF positions well and, IMO, would rake away from the NL West. Too, he wouldn't cost all that much. A Stubbs for Denorfia deal, while making the Reds slightly more expensive now (pro-rated difference between $1.1 million and $550,000) and likely less expensive next (as an arb-eligible).

I'm guessing a deal of Stubbs for Denorfia would work well for both teams for this season. (I do realize the risk of this deal is higher than most and that Stubbs could very well turn into a solid player for year while playing elsewhere. It's a gamble I'm willing to take.)

MikeS21
07-20-2012, 06:24 PM
First thing I would do is move Chapman into the rotation. It would be closer by committee here on out.

I then would package Leake, Heisey, Gregorius, and Lotzkar and go get the absolute best starting LF, and OBP bench guy that they can.

If the Reds do that, they can start printing playoff tickets. ;)

PuffyPig
07-20-2012, 06:30 PM
Chris Denorfia is a guy I'd love to see targeted.

He can play all three OF positions well and, IMO, would rake away from the NL West. Too, he wouldn't cost all that much. A Stubbs for Denorfia deal, while making the Reds slightly more expensive now (pro-rated difference between $1.1 million and $550,000) and likely less expensive next (as an arb-eligible).

I'm guessing a deal of Stubbs for Denorfia would work well for both teams for this season. (I do realize the risk of this deal is higher than most and that Stubbs could very well turn into a solid player for year while playing elsewhere. It's a gamble I'm willing to take.)

Denorfia would cost you well less than Stubbs.

Stubbs still has pretty high trade value.

Kc61
07-20-2012, 06:32 PM
I completely agree. Especially with Nick Masset coming back and J.J. Hoover waiting in the wings. Pretty much anybody not named Sean Marshall or Aroldis Chapman in the pen would be available if I was Jocketty.

It would be very difficult for me to trade Arredondo. I probably would do so only if I was getting a similar caliber pitcher in return.

On RedsZone, IMO we tend to undervalue relievers. That's ok, some folks just don't think individual relievers have much value and I can understand that viewpoint. But Arredondo IMO is the only Reds righty reliever capable of pitching frequently in the late innings.

I think it would hurt the Reds if the righty late inning group were Simon, Lecure and Ondrusek. Masset has been out a long time and, frankly, since 2009 hasn't been that great. Hoover is inexperienced with extreme fly ball tendencies.

Obviously, Arredondo is no super star, he's far from untouchable, but the Reds have to be very careful not to mess around too much with the pitching staff which has been so successful. Arredondo actually has had an important role so far.

I hope in whatever trades are made, the Reds don't move pitchers who have a major role on the staff. If the want to trade Ondrusek or Bray, I have no problem. Lecure, if necessary. Even Simon would be a loss, he fills a lot of innings and has done so effectively.

Pitching is the key, it's been great so far, caution.

Kc61
07-20-2012, 06:50 PM
Chris Denorfia is a guy I'd love to see targeted.

He can play all three OF positions well and, IMO, would rake away from the NL West. Too, he wouldn't cost all that much. A Stubbs for Denorfia deal, while making the Reds slightly more expensive now (pro-rated difference between $1.1 million and $550,000) and likely less expensive next (as an arb-eligible).

I'm guessing a deal of Stubbs for Denorfia would work well for both teams for this season. (I do realize the risk of this deal is higher than most and that Stubbs could very well turn into a solid player for year while playing elsewhere. It's a gamble I'm willing to take.)

Deno is a good OBP man, but he's a righty hitter (like most of the Reds) whose numbers are better against lefties (like most of the Reds).

It is a good thought, I think he fits the Reds OBP needs better than, say, Heisey as a backup outfielder. Not sure Deno is a starter on a good team. Doubt very much Reds would give up Stubbs for him.

The more I consider it, the more I think DeJesus may be the best fit for the Reds. OBP beast against RHP. Can lead off effectively. Can play LF and some CF, the two positions where an acquisition is most likely. Cubs have no real need for him, should be tradeable, older player signed for real money next year, Cubs are rebuilding, would want prospects instead. Battle tested player, not a kid, might be more helpful in pennant drive/playoffs.

Scrap Irony
07-20-2012, 06:55 PM
The Reds trading DeJesus for Ludwick and whatever prospects he costs makes no sense.

Denorfia, at least, would be a huge plus in Cincinnati's biggest area of need: CF.

Put your assets where they can do the most good. In this case, it's CF without a doubt.

Kc61
07-20-2012, 07:06 PM
The Reds trading DeJesus for Ludwick and whatever prospects he costs makes no sense.

Denorfia, at least, would be a huge plus in Cincinnati's biggest area of need: CF.

Put your assets where they can do the most good. In this case, it's CF without a doubt.

Having DeJesus to split time with Ludwick and Stubbs in LF and CF makes a ton of sense because he provides the one skill the Reds need most - the ability to get on base, principally against RHP.

Denorfia is a career part time player for San Diego who most years has struggled against righties like many of the Reds. If the Reds must acquire a starting CFer, he ain't the one.

Scrap Irony
07-20-2012, 07:16 PM
Denorfia's played in 77 games this year. 111 last season (and he was injured for most of those games missed). 99 the year before.

In those three years, he's amassed 900 PAs of 110 OPS+ production. His lifetime OBP is .343.

Over his past 1000 PAs, DeJesus has put up an OPS+ of 98. His lifetime OBP is .356.

Add that Denorfia is a much better defender with better speed, not to mention he's less costly both in terms of prospects and salary, and it's a fairly easy choice, IMO, between the two.

Benihana
07-20-2012, 07:16 PM
How about trading Masset (once activated) to the Mets for Duda? Get some cost savings and a LH bat. Meanwhile the Mets can sell it to their fanbase as a "win now" move.

Otherwise, I would be on board with MikeS21's proposal for Justin Upton, although I would prefer to try to get him without giving up Leake (or Bailey for that matter).

Kc61
07-20-2012, 07:24 PM
Denorfia's played in 77 games this year. 111 last season (and he was injured for most of those games missed). 99 the year before.

In those three years, he's amassed 900 PAs of 110 OPS+ production. His lifetime OBP is .343.

Over his past 1000 PAs, DeJesus has put up an OPS+ of 98. His lifetime OBP is .356.

Add that Denorfia is a much better defender with better speed, not to mention he's less costly both in terms of prospects and salary, and it's a fairly easy choice, IMO, between the two.

You see the Reds need as CF.

I see the Reds need as hitting against RHP for a strong OBP.

So you want Deno, because you think he is a better CFer than they currently have.

And I want DeJesus because he gets on base constantly against RHP. Career OBP against them of .369.

We can agree to disagree.

mth123
07-20-2012, 07:29 PM
Lotzkar for Dejesus and cash. Dejesus would play CF against RHP. Nick Christiani for Mark Kotsay. When Votto comes back that would require three 25 man roster spots. Cairo would be one. Paul would probably be another. I'd go to 11 pitchers for a while to get the third. It would only be for 3 weeks or so and then rosters expand.

DGullett35
07-20-2012, 07:30 PM
I think Id rather have DeJesus than Denorfia. Mainly because david is LH bat.

Kc61
07-20-2012, 07:31 PM
Lotzkar for Dejesus and cash. Dejesus would play CF against RHP. Nick Christiani for Mark Kotsay. When Votto comes back that would require three 25 man roster spots. Cairo would be one. Paul would probably be another. I'd go to 11 pitchers for a while to get the third. It would only be for 3 weeks or so and then rosters expand.

Cubs are better negotiators than that. And the Reds are taking on salary, why give them cash?

Heisey and Lotzkar for DeJesus and a mid-level prospect. Deal?

DGullett35
07-20-2012, 07:32 PM
Lotzkar for Dejesus and cash. Dejesus would play CF against RHP. Nick Christiani for Mark Kotsay. When Votto comes back that would require three 25 man roster spots. Cairo would be one. Paul would probably be another. I'd go to 11 pitchers for a while to get the third. It would only be for 3 weeks or so and then rosters expand.

I like this. Some want Cairo gone but I see him staying the whole year. If the starting pitching can stay somewhat consistent like they have been then this would work. If we were to get in a pinch Im sure Paul could be optioned for a few days.

Tom Servo
07-20-2012, 07:33 PM
How about trading Masset (once activated) to the Mets for Duda? Get some cost savings and a LH bat. Meanwhile the Mets can sell it to their fanbase as a "win now" move.

I definitely think it would take more than that. I don't think the Mets are just going to give Duda away.

Kc61
07-20-2012, 07:35 PM
I like this. Some want Cairo gone but I see him staying the whole year. If the starting pitching can stay somewhat consistent like they have been then this would work. If we were to get in a pinch Im sure Paul could be optioned for a few days.

Putting aside who gets traded for them, the combo of DeJesus and Kotsay would be a huge upgrade against righty pitching for the Reds.

And I think the Reds, if they need spots on the twenty five man roster, will sadly come to the realization that Cairo needs to be replaced.

If the Reds were to add DeJesus and Kotsay, a current outfielder would also have to go. Guessing Heisey.

DGullett35
07-20-2012, 07:35 PM
I definitely think it would take more than that. I don't think the Mets are just going to give Duda away.

Especially with with not knowing how well Masset will perofrm or what condition he truly is in. Id like to hold onto Nick. His fresh arm should help us down the stretch. Id love for him to be the set-up man.

mth123
07-20-2012, 07:46 PM
Cubs are better negotiators than that. And the Reds are taking on salary, why give them cash?

Heisey and Lotzkar for DeJesus and a mid-level prospect. Deal?

Cubs give the cash. If they want a real prospect for Dejesus, they'll need to. Cubs are trying to build their core. They'd rather have Lotzkar than a fringe major leaguer like say Heisey. They might want Hoover instead. I'd do that. I wouldn't do Corcino, Cingrani, Hamilton, H-Rod or Didi. If it takes throwing in a second guy from the 10 to 20 range, say David Vidal, to get the cash, I'd do it.

MikeS21
07-20-2012, 07:46 PM
To be clear, I am not in favor of trading Stubbs at this time. I like him in CF and as long as he is moved down in the order to about 6th or 7th, he's a vital cog until we grow another CF in the minors. (LaMarre? Hamilton?)

I'd rather see a good upgrade for a starting LF, and replace either Cairo or Valdez with a decent OBP bench guy.

Kc61
07-20-2012, 07:51 PM
Cubs give the cash. If they want a real prospect for Dejesus, they'll need to. Cubs are trying to build their core. They'd rather have Lotzkar than a fringe major leaguer like say Heisey. They might want Hoover instead. I'd do that. I wouldn't do Corcino, Cingrani, Hamilton, H-Rod or Didi. If it takes throwing in a second guy from the 10 to 20 range, say David Vidal, to get the cash, I'd do it.

My suggestion was Heisey and Lotzkar both. And the Reds get a minor leaguer back with DeJesus.

Cubs need major league players so they can field a team for the Wrigley faithful.
Heisey helps with that.

I'd make that deal. You can negotiate the cash part.

If Cubs want Hoover and Heisey instead, I'd make that deal too.

Hoover and Lotzkar? I want a decent prospect back with DeJesus. Then I'd do it.

Benihana
07-20-2012, 07:59 PM
Especially with with not knowing how well Masset will perofrm or what condition he truly is in. Id like to hold onto Nick. His fresh arm should help us down the stretch. Id love for him to be the set-up man.

If Masset is/becomes the setup man, then we'll have the highest paid LOOGY in baseball. If that's the case, why not trade Sean Marshall for Duda?

Benihana
07-20-2012, 08:03 PM
Just curious, why no Chase Headley?


Buster Olney reported this week that the Padres' asking price on Headley is remarkably high.

If we are going to pay a "remarkably high price", I'd much prefer to get Justin Upton. Fowler and LoMo are guys I'd give up more for than I would Headley.

Scrap Irony
07-20-2012, 08:07 PM
Hoover and Heisey is an extreme overpay for a guy who's likely to help, at the most, half a win.

That's five years of Hoover and a guy who out-produced your target by almost 70 OPS points last season.

DeJesus, for the right price, is okay. Superfluous, but okay.

The idea that he'd play LF against some teams, CF against others, though, is a pipe dream. That would require switching the batting order for three different lineups. Baker hasn't done that kind of lineup shuffling in his entire career. He certainly wouldn't start now.

He'll cost too much in terms of pay off, he'd require the manager to do something with which he's unfamiliar, and the end result might not be more than a handful of runs.

Kc61
07-20-2012, 08:11 PM
Hoover and Heisey is an extreme overpay for a guy who's likely to help, at the most, half a win.

That's five years of Hoover and a guy who out-produced your target by almost 70 OPS points last season.

DeJesus, for the right price, is okay. Superfluous, but okay.

The idea that he'd play LF against some teams, CF against others, though, is a pipe dream. That would require switching the batting order for three different lineups. Baker hasn't done that kind of lineup shuffling in his entire career. He certainly wouldn't start now.

He'll cost too much in terms of pay off, he'd require the manager to do something with which he's unfamiliar, and the end result might not be more than a handful of runs.

You probably value Hoover more than I do. Extreme fly ball pitcher, not a good GABP fit IMO. And with Lotzkar's injury history, he has good value but maybe not great value. Certainly less than Cingrani or Corcino.

I think Dejesus would probably platoon with Ludwick and play occasional CF. Kind of like Heisey does, except from the left side. I think it's workable.

I also doubt that the Reds are ready to cut bait on Stubbs. Not saying I agree, he has so much trouble with contact that I'm very unsure that he'll ever hit. But the Reds value Drew and his natural ability. I'm guessing any deal will not involve Stubbs.

In light of their regard for Stubbs, I think it is more likely the Reds will acquire someone for LF, who (if he can) will play occasionally in CF. Presumably, if this happens, Stubbs moves lower in the batting order.

mth123
07-20-2012, 08:12 PM
My suggestion was Heisey and Lotzkar both. And the Reds get a minor leaguer back with DeJesus.

Cubs need major league players so they can field a team for the Wrigley faithful.
Heisey helps with that.

I'd make that deal. You can negotiate the cash part.

If Cubs want Hoover and Heisey instead, I'd make that deal too.

Hoover and Lotzkar? I want a decent prospect back with DeJesus. Then I'd do it.

Most of the Cubs better prospects are outfielders. If they trade Dejesus, Brett Jackson would come-up to play CF. They also have Matthew Szczur in A+ and our own David Sappelt lurking. Reed Johnson and Tony Campana would help them field a major league team. I'm still betting Starlin Castro ends in CF at some point. They have Rizzo for 1B and Wellington Castillo behind the plate. If they want a position player, it would be for 2B, SS or 3B. They may have interest in Didi or H-Rod, but arms are what they'd be after. I doubt they'd have much interest in Heisey or Stubbs.

corkedbat
07-22-2012, 02:10 AM
Deno is a good OBP man, but he's a righty hitter (like most of the Reds) whose numbers are better against lefties (like most of the Reds).

It is a good thought, I think he fits the Reds OBP needs better than, say, Heisey as a backup outfielder. Not sure Deno is a starter on a good team. Doubt very much Reds would give up Stubbs for him.

The more I consider it, the more I think DeJesus may be the best fit for the Reds. OBP beast against RHP. Can lead off effectively. Can play LF and some CF, the two positions where an acquisition is most likely. Cubs have no real need for him, should be tradeable, older player signed for real money next year, Cubs are rebuilding, would want prospects instead. Battle tested player, not a kid, might be more helpful in pennant drive/playoffs.

DeJesus certainly has the OBP abilities to help the Reds, but he's not an ideal fit, IMO. I don't want to replace Ludwick's bat with a top of the order guy in left. If I get a high-OBP guy, I want them to replace or platoon with Stubbs in CF.

Just saying DeJesus can play CF is good enough. I think Jocketty and the Reds pride themselves on their defense. I can't see them playing DeJesus out there on any kind of regular basis. His speed/range is much too limited. If they go for a leadoff type, I'd much rather it be someone like Span/Revere/Fowler. If they're going to go after someone to split time with Ludwick in LF, I'd rather it be someone more able to bat toward the middle of the order like Lind, Branyan, Kotsay, Seth Smith or even Lehair.

gilpdawg
07-22-2012, 04:27 AM
I definitely think it would take more than that. I don't think the Mets are just going to give Duda away.
I think they are pretty high on him, no? Probably have to be an overpay.

Tom Servo
07-22-2012, 04:57 AM
I think they are pretty high on him, no? Probably have to be an overpay.
Not really sure where the organization stands with him. I did find a Mets blog that discusses him, and I thought their conversation sounded a bit familiar about a rightfielder...


I haven't given up on Duda, but let's be realistic about this: 26 years old is not young. There comes a point when you have to concede that he is not going to be the player that you wanted him to be. He might still get there, but his potential is getting very close to its expiration date. Moving him to LF might help him a little by placing less demand on him defensively, but he needs to start turning his offensive potential into actual production.


Very well said as usual. Duda's not a kid, and the league seems to have figured him out very well.

Still, if he can play LF acceptably, he is a fine #7 or even maybe #6 hitter for a team with a nice middle of the order; he is just not a #4 or #5 hitter.


Reality. Duda is not good. He's not an everyday player. In fact, I'm not sure the Mets have any good/true everyday positon players other than Wright, Davis and Tejada.

I(heart)Freel
07-22-2012, 09:03 AM
From MLB Trade Rumors:


With Brett Gardner out for the year, Jon Heyman of CBSSports.com*says the Yankees have called the Phillies about Shane Victorino, the Diamondbacks about Justin Upton, and the Twins about Denard Span. "The Twins are asking for a ton (for Span)," he hears.

Vottomatic
07-22-2012, 10:02 AM
From MLB Trade Rumors:

I'm about ready to stand pat. None of these guys are worth giving up the farm. Other clubs are ridiculous in their demands.

Benihana
07-22-2012, 10:26 AM
I'm about ready to stand pat. None of these guys are worth giving up the farm. Other clubs are ridiculous in their demands.

Agreed with one exception: Justin Upton.

Hell, play him (or Bruce) in CF against righties so Ludwick stays in the lineup.

kaldaniels
07-22-2012, 04:40 PM
Quentin signed a 3 yr 27 MM deal with SD.

Big Klu
07-22-2012, 04:44 PM
MLB Network reporting that the Padres have signed Quentin to a 3-year, $27 million extension through 2015.

Vottomatic
07-22-2012, 05:42 PM
MLB Network reporting that the Padres have signed Quentin to a 3-year, $27 million extension through 2015.

Good. I would assume he's off the market now.

DGullett35
07-22-2012, 06:11 PM
I read on MLB trade rumors that the Diamondbacks would ask the Buccos for Marte and 2 of there top pitching arms(couldnt remember the names) in the minors for Upton. The Pirates are said to not want to do that. IMO that would be about the same as us giving up Hamilton Cingrani and Lotzkar. I think Id do that. I dont know how good Marte is or is going to be but Hamilton has to be right up there with him.

I do think as the deadline draws nearer that the price for some of these guys will go down.

mth123
07-22-2012, 06:42 PM
I read on MLB trade rumors that the Diamondbacks would ask the Buccos for Marte and 2 of there top pitching arms(couldnt remember the names) in the minors for Upton. The Pirates are said to not want to do that. IMO that would be about the same as us giving up Hamilton Cingrani and Lotzkar. I think Id do that. I dont know how good Marte is or is going to be but Hamilton has to be right up there with him.

I do think as the deadline draws nearer that the price for some of these guys will go down.

Problem the Reds have stacking up, is a guy like Marte should be ready to step in and play in 2013. Hamilton probably is a 2014 guy. None of the Reds top prospects will be ready in 2013 (maybe H-Rod). Unless a team is in a total burn it to the ground rebuild, they'll want guys who can play soon. I don't think any three Reds prospects could get Upton. Maybe if Frazier or Cozart was included.

Its why I think the right deal is to shoot for a role player who fits a need more than a star. Dejesus or Span and Kotsay are still the best targets IMO.

DGullett35
07-22-2012, 06:49 PM
Problem the Reds have stacking up, is a guy like Marte should be ready to step in and play in 2013. Hamilton probably is a 2014 guy. None of the Reds top prospects will be ready in 2013 (maybe H-Rod). Unless a team is in a total burn it to the ground rebuild, they'll want guys who can play soon. I don't think any three Reds prospects could get Upton. Maybe if Frazier or Cozart was included.

Its why I think the right deal is to shoot for a role player who fits a need more than a star. Dejesus or Span and Kotsay are still the best targets IMO.

After looking at what you've said I agree except for one thing. I think Span is an everyday player and not a role player. Span would be at the top of the lineup every day and in CF if not LF on some days. Stubbs would be relegated to pinch running and defensive replacement duty.

kaldaniels
07-22-2012, 06:50 PM
The Brewers have to be in sell mode now, right?

DGullett35
07-22-2012, 06:51 PM
Brew Crew definitely in sell mode. 10.5 out. I wouldn't mind having Aoki but I feel that he has to be apart of there future. Hes a good ballpayer. Reminds me of Choo but maybe better

kaldaniels
07-22-2012, 06:55 PM
Brew Crew definitely in sell mode. 10.5 out. I wouldn't mind having Aoki but I feel that he has to be apart of there future. Hes a good ballpayer. Reminds me of Choo but maybe better

Wonder what will happen with Greinke. If they aren't going to/can't sign him, mind as well auction him off.

mth123
07-22-2012, 06:57 PM
After looking at what you've said I agree except for one thing. I think Span is an everyday player and not a role player. Span would be at the top of the lineup every day and in CF if not LF on some days. Stubbs would be relegated to pinch running and defensive replacement duty.

Span still is a role payer. He's not a build your team around him star like Upton or other names I've seen like Elsbury. I have no problems sending Stubbs to the bench. He'd still probably be better than Span or Dejesus against LHP, but Stubbs is mostly a bench guy anyway. IMO, Heisey is a 4th OF and Stubbs is a 5th OF. Need a run of the mill guy to replace them or a platoon guy to keep them from being exposed.

mth123
07-22-2012, 07:00 PM
Brew Crew definitely in sell mode. 10.5 out. I wouldn't mind having Aoki but I feel that he has to be apart of there future. Hes a good ballpayer. Reminds me of Choo but maybe better

Aoki is 30. Not sure he's in the future plans so much.

DGullett35
07-22-2012, 07:03 PM
Aoki is 30. Not sure he's in the future plans so much.

I didn't know that. Would love to have him although I dont see the Brew Crew trading him within the division.

traderumor
07-22-2012, 07:57 PM
Was just looking at team stats through Saturday's game. An interesting thing to note about the contending teams. While the Reds are slightly below league average in RPG, they are tied with Washington, slightly ahead of Pirates and Giants, well ahead of Dodgers. Only the Cards and Braves have top ranked offenses among contenders.

On the pitching side, its the Nats, Reds, Pirates, Dodgers, Giants, Cards, in order of current contenders, with the Braves right at league average.

So, while the offense is less than what we're used to, it is comparable to the contending teams. Sure, an improvement at the top and middle of the order would certainly be welcome, I'm probably not selling the future at this point. Realistically, I'm looking for a Pierre or Span, probably not in the market for an Upton blockbuster.

Also, two years into a swing toward pitching, management has had the foresight and good fortune to put together a top notch staff.

mth123
07-22-2012, 08:20 PM
Was just looking at team stats through Saturday's game. An interesting thing to note about the contending teams. While the Reds are slightly below league average in RPG, they are tied with Washington, slightly ahead of Pirates and Giants, well ahead of Dodgers. Only the Cards and Braves have top ranked offenses among contenders.

On the pitching side, its the Nats, Reds, Pirates, Dodgers, Giants, Cards, in order of current contenders, with the Braves right at league average.

So, while the offense is less than what we're used to, it is comparable to the contending teams. Sure, an improvement at the top and middle of the order would certainly be welcome, I'm probably not selling the future at this point. Realistically, I'm looking for a Pierre or Span, probably not in the market for an Upton blockbuster.

Also, two years into a swing toward pitching, management has had the foresight and good fortune to put together a top notch staff.

The Nats spent huge portions of the season without Morse, Zimmerman and Werth. The Dodgers have been w/o Kemp and Ethier. Sandoval and Huff have missed significant time in SF. The Cards have missed Holliday, Craig and Berkman for long stretches. Even the Braves were w/o Chipper early in the year. Until Votto, the Reds only loss of note was Rolen and it just made way for a better player. Throw in the park differences and just comparing offensive totals doesn't tell the whole picture moving forward. I think the Reds need to add some offense. Other teams will be adding pieces where they are weak. Agree about not needing a blockbuster.

The Reds' pitching has been superb.

traderumor
07-22-2012, 08:37 PM
The Nats spent huge portions of the season without Morse, Zimmerman and Werth. The Dodgers have been w/o Kemp and Ethier. Sandoval and Huff have missed significant time in SF. The Cards have missed Holliday, Craig and Berkman for long stretches. Even the Braves were w/o Chipper early in the year. Until Votto, the Reds only loss of note was Rolen and it just made way for a better player. Throw in the park differences and just comparing offensive totals doesn't tell the whole picture moving forward. I think the Reds need to add some offense. Other teams will be adding pieces where they are weak. Agree about not needing a blockbuster.

The Reds' pitching has been superb.

The going wisdom is that the offense is going to struggle come playoff time. What I see is that the playoff contenders are not that far apart offensively (and I think you've overstated the "key injury" argument) and that the Reds are not as desperate for offense as one might conclude from reading this board. The Cards and Braves both have the most potent offenses, but they also have the weakest pitching of the contenders, which will probably be their demise in the end. I think the leadoff hitter concept might be the cheapest and also give the most bang for the buck. While another slugger would be nice, I think the price will be too steep to fix that in the season, short of catching a "lightning in a bottle" type.

mth123
07-22-2012, 08:46 PM
The going wisdom is that the offense is going to struggle come playoff time. What I see is that the playoff contenders are not that far apart offensively (and I think you've overstated the "key injury" argument) and that the Reds are not as desperate for offense as one might conclude from reading this board. The Cards and Braves both have the most potent offenses, but they also have the weakest pitching of the contenders, which will probably be their demise in the end. I think the leadoff hitter concept might be the cheapest and also give the most bang for the buck. While another slugger would be nice, I think the price will be too steep to fix that in the season, short of catching a "lightning in a bottle" type.

A lead-off type who puts Stubbs and Heisey on the bench is the best way to improve this team. Get that and hit Ludwick 4th while moving Phillips ahead of Votto and I'd say this team has what it needs, but Stubbs and Heisey at the top with Cozart hitting second has to stop. Against a RHP, this team would be improved dramatically if only one of those guys was in the line-up. IMO, it would be a bigger improvement than adding a masher in LF unless its a .900+ OPS guy and the Reds really don't have the near ready prospects to get one of those.

Scrap Irony
07-22-2012, 09:26 PM
A lead-off type who puts Stubbs and Heisey on the bench is the best way to improve this team. Get that and hit Ludwick 4th while moving Phillips ahead of Votto and I'd say this team has what it needs, but Stubbs and Heisey at the top with Cozart hitting second has to stop. Against a RHP, this team would be improved dramatically if only one of those guys was in the line-up. IMO, it would be a bigger improvement than adding a masher in LF unless its a .900+ OPS guy and the Reds really don't have the near ready prospects to get one of those.

I agree 100%.

The biggest hole in the lineup is in CF. The offense's biggest hole is at the top of the order.

A CF who can hit first or second would be ideal.

Fowler, IMO, would be that bat.

I'd agree to a Rodriguez, Mesoraco, Soto, Corcino deal for him. (And think Colorado would love to have that to fill out their minor league rosters with three erstwhile major league starters as early as next season, plus a starter in 2014.)

Fowler CF
Phillips 2B
Votto 1B
Ludwick LF
Bruce RF
Fralen 3B
Hanigan/ Navarro C
Cozart SS

mth123
07-22-2012, 09:33 PM
I agree 100%.

The biggest hole in the lineup is in CF. The offense's biggest hole is at the top of the order.

A CF who can hit first or second would be ideal.

Fowler, IMO, would be that bat.

I'd agree to a Rodriguez, Mesoraco, Soto, Corcino deal for him. (And think Colorado would love to have that to fill out their minor league rosters with three erstwhile major league starters as early as next season, plus a starter in 2014.)

Fowler CF
Phillips 2B
Votto 1B
Ludwick LF
Bruce RF
Fralen 3B
Hanigan/ Navarro C
Cozart SS

I don't think including Mesoraco works for either team. Mes is the Reds catcher and clean-up RH bat to hit between Votto and Bruce of the near future and the Rockies have a highly regarded young catcher in Rosario. Sub Lotzkar and you may be onto something. I'm guessing they'd rather have Leake than a package of umprovens though.

Mario-Rijo
07-22-2012, 09:40 PM
The going wisdom is that the offense is going to struggle come playoff time. What I see is that the playoff contenders are not that far apart offensively (and I think you've overstated the "key injury" argument) and that the Reds are not as desperate for offense as one might conclude from reading this board. The Cards and Braves both have the most potent offenses, but they also have the weakest pitching of the contenders, which will probably be their demise in the end. I think the leadoff hitter concept might be the cheapest and also give the most bang for the buck. While another slugger would be nice, I think the price will be too steep to fix that in the season, short of catching a "lightning in a bottle" type.

I'm not looking to hang with those guys in the playoffs, I want to have the advantage. I want to be the best team. Or at the very least not have a glaring deficiency they can count on to exploit us.

mth123
07-22-2012, 09:43 PM
I'm not looking to hang with those guys in the playoffs, I want to have the advantage. I want to be the best team. Or at the very least not have a glaring deficiency they can count on to exploit us.

:thumbup:

DGullett35
07-22-2012, 09:44 PM
Why get rid of one of our best young talents and our future starting catcher for years to come? No way they deal Mes anytime soon. I agree that hes probably going to be the bat that hits 4th in this lineup maybe even next year. I look for his bat to really come alive in the next year. Hes focused on his D and his handleing of the staff so far and thats what he should be doing.

Back to the topic at hand: Id love to have Fowler. I think Walt could get something done for him that wouldnt take the rest of the farm system. However Id rather have a Span or DeJesus mainly because they are a LH bat.

Scrap Irony
07-22-2012, 09:53 PM
You deal him because you can't get something for nothing. Mesoraco is still considered a good prospect. You also deal him because his major league OPS+ after 200 ABs is 73. Consistent ABs or not, that's just not getting it done. (FWIW, I'm not a Mesoraco fan. He drops his back shoulder and sells out for power too often for me to think he's going to develop the hit tool at all.)

DGullett35
07-22-2012, 09:55 PM
You deal him because you can't get something for nothing. Mesoraco is still considered a good prospect. You also deal him because his major league OPS+ after 200 ABs is 73. Consistent ABs or not, that's just not getting it done. (FWIW, I'm not a Mesoraco fan. He drops his back shoulder and sells out for power too often for me to think he's going to develop the hit tool at all.)

I thought he would be better than what hes shown so far and hopefully that changes I really think he will be good. Would you have rather kept Grandal? It will be interesting to see how Mes and Grandal turn out down the road.

Tom Servo
07-22-2012, 09:55 PM
You deal him because you can't get something for nothing. Mesoraco is still considered a good prospect. You also deal him because his major league OPS+ after 200 ABs is 73. Consistent ABs or not, that's just not getting it done. (FWIW, I'm not a Mesoraco fan. He drops his back shoulder and sells out for power too often for me to think he's going to develop the hit tool at all.)
Really? Mes has not even had a chance to play regularly and it's already been determined that he wouldn't be able to 'get it done' because of 200 plate appearances over 60 games?

Cedric
07-22-2012, 09:57 PM
You deal him because you can't get something for nothing. Mesoraco is still considered a good prospect. You also deal him because his major league OPS+ after 200 ABs is 73. Consistent ABs or not, that's just not getting it done. (FWIW, I'm not a Mesoraco fan. He drops his back shoulder and sells out for power too often for me to think he's going to develop the hit tool at all.)

He still has more value alone than Dexter Fowler.

Scrap Irony
07-22-2012, 10:02 PM
Would you have rather kept Grandal?

Oh, good God, yes.

Grandal is a switch-hitter with power, patience, and a great swing. He's not quite a catcher yet, though he has all the tools to be.

I've never really been a Mesoraco believer. I've seen him about 25-30 times in the minors and another five or so in the major leagues. In all that time, he impressed me in one game. Hard to not let that color your perception of a player. I realize it's an extremely small sample size in the major leagues, but it's not just major league ABs.

PuffyPig
07-22-2012, 10:08 PM
Oh, good God, yes.

Grandal is a switch-hitter with power, patience, and a great swing.

He's still waiting for his first major league walk and he's a poor catcher defensively.

Scrap Irony
07-22-2012, 10:10 PM
He still has more value alone than Dexter Fowler.

No chance.

Fowler's OPSing .910 as a defensively solid CF that's 26.

His 10 most similar batters through 25 include seven All-Stars.

He was the 15th rated prospect way back in 2009

Mesoraco's 23 and a backup catcher with a solid prospect background. He was the 16th rated prospect after last season.

Scrap Irony
07-22-2012, 10:13 PM
He's still waiting for his first major league walk and he's a poor catcher defensively.

He's got a 14% BB rate in the minor leagues.

He is poor defensively right now, but has the tools to get better.

I'd take him over Mesoraco right now, and it's not particularly close. IMO.

PuffyPig
07-22-2012, 10:13 PM
I'd agree to a Rodriguez, Mesoraco, Soto, Corcino deal for him. (And think Colorado would love to have that to fill out their minor league rosters with three erstwhile major league starters as early as next season, plus a starter in 2014.)



You must think Fowler's HR/BB rate will stay at 18.2%, about triple is lifetime average.

I sure don't think it will.

And it's trhe only part of his game which has improved this year.

Mario-Rijo
07-22-2012, 10:13 PM
You deal him because you can't get something for nothing. Mesoraco is still considered a good prospect. You also deal him because his major league OPS+ after 200 ABs is 73. Consistent ABs or not, that's just not getting it done. (FWIW, I'm not a Mesoraco fan. He drops his back shoulder and sells out for power too often for me to think he's going to develop the hit tool at all.)

That's a pretty easily fixable issue. I don't trade he or Cozart at this juncture. Too much value there with these big contracts we suddenly have on our hands.

If you have to deal something for something Frazier is the guy. I have always liked him and probably always will but for the right return he's a key piece as it stands right now. His fielding isn't quite were I'd like to see it and not sure he has the ability to play 3B going forward, his glove/agility is just a tad suspect. And he doesn't have the wheels to be an above average defender in the OF. But right now we may be able to convince someone who hasn't seen him alot that he is a 3B.

Frazier, Stubbs/Heisey, Lotzkar & Sulbaran to S.D. for Chase Headley & Venable. 2 bats who can get on base, have some fair pop & play pretty good defense and are a lefty & a switchy. Headley platoons in LF with Ludwick and plays 3B when Rolen isn't. Venable platoons with Heisey/Stubbs in CF.

traderumor
07-22-2012, 10:14 PM
I'm not looking to hang with those guys in the playoffs, I want to have the advantage. I want to be the best team. Or at the very least not have a glaring deficiency they can count on to exploit us.Well, obviously. The observation is that the Reds are not overmatched offensively, which would make a significant trade for offense more necessary. As it stands, they need an upgrade, not an overhaul. That is my point. That is also more realistic to get something done in season, which is encouraging.

Mario-Rijo
07-22-2012, 10:33 PM
He's got a 14% BB rate in the minor leagues.

He is poor defensively right now, but has the tools to get better.

I'd take him over Mesoraco right now, and it's not particularly close. IMO.

I believe you overrate Yas and clearly underrate Mes. Yas has some clear flaws defensively that will keep him from being top of the line and he has some subtle offensive flaws IMO. Yes he has patience and power but he isn't gonna be a great contact guy at the big league level. Mes has the tools to be as good offensively and defensively as anyone in the league. I also think in the end Mes will prove to be the one with greater intangibles.

I think the biggest difference between the 2 is stopping the running game, Mes is much better tooled for it. And in this day and age the running game will eventually come back in full force.

corkedbat
07-22-2012, 10:54 PM
Before I start calling Mesaraco disappointing, I want to see himm start getting ABs on a more frequent and consistent basis. I believe that once that starts happening he will be alright. Grandal will be a good player, but IMO, his fast start to fribabies is in part due to regular ABs in AAA prior to his callup. It maybe next year, but I believe that once he becomes the frontline catcher, Mes will be fine.

PuffyPig
07-22-2012, 11:06 PM
I'd take him over Mesoraco right now, and it's not particularly close. IMO.

You are in the minority.

Mes has better plate disciplne, power, defense and arm. I think you arefalling in love with Grandal's 25% FB/HR rate. Better enjoy it now, you'll likley never see it again.

You are correct it's not close. But that's the only part I agree with you on.

We shall eventually see I guess.

BTW, I like Grandal, but I thoink Mes is the better bet going forward. His OBA is actually higher than Grandal's right now.

Scrap Irony
07-22-2012, 11:12 PM
I believe you overrate Yas and clearly underrate Mes. Yas has some clear flaws defensively that will keep him from being top of the line and he has some subtle offensive flaws IMO. Yes he has patience and power but he isn't gonna be a great contact guy at the big league level. Mes has the tools to be as good offensively and defensively as anyone in the league. I also think in the end Mes will prove to be the one with greater intangibles.

Grandal has a .314 BA in the minor leagues.

Mesoraco's last two seasons (wherein he became a true prospect), his was .295. That's a fairly substantial difference. He's going to hit for a high average with power and patience. The key, obviously, will be his defense. IMO, Grandal's offensive game will more than outweigh the differences between he and Mesoraco in terms of stolen base percentage.

Mesoraco may win the intangibles discussion, but I love it when a guy hits his first mlb home run, gets the silent treatment, then pretends to high five down the dugout. I love his attitude while at the plate and when he hits the ball. It seems as if he's having a ball out there while still playing hard.

Love that he's a switch hitter, too.



I think the biggest difference between the 2 is stopping the running game, Mes is much better tooled for it. And in this day and age the running game will eventually come back in full force.

Maybe.

We'll know for sure in 15 years, probably sooner. I'm betting Mesoraco is a decent major league platoon guy, not quite as good as Hanigan with the glove (or arm), a bit more power. A Kelly Shoppach type. I'm also betting Grandal is a perennial All-Star and San Diego stalwart.

Vottomatic
07-22-2012, 11:13 PM
Why get rid of one of our best young talents and our future starting catcher for years to come? No way they deal Mes anytime soon. I agree that hes probably going to be the bat that hits 4th in this lineup maybe even next year. I look for his bat to really come alive in the next year. Hes focused on his D and his handleing of the staff so far and thats what he should be doing.

Back to the topic at hand: Id love to have Fowler. I think Walt could get something done for him that wouldnt take the rest of the farm system. However Id rather have a Span or DeJesus mainly because they are a LH bat.

I've totally shifted to wanting Fowler. He just turned 26, four months ago on March 22. He isn't a free agent until 2016. According to baseball-reference.com he is a switch hitter, hitting .293 from his left side against RHP and .309 from his right side against LHP. http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/split.cgi?id=fowlede01&year=&t=b

On a bad offense his OBP, BA, SLG, and obviously OPS are at a career best. .384 OBP in front of Votto??? Nice.

I think he should be at the front of the list of targets.

DGullett35
07-22-2012, 11:16 PM
I didn't realize Fowler was switch hitter. Seems like Ive only seen him from the right side. In that case cmon Walt make it happen:) I still wouldnt give up Mes to get him though

PuffyPig
07-22-2012, 11:26 PM
Grandal has a .314 BA in the minor leagues.

Mesoraco's last two seasons (wherein he became a true prospect), his was .295. That's a fairly substantial difference.

Mesoraco may win the intangibles discussion, but I love it when a guy hits his first mlb home run, gets the silent treatment, then pretends to high five down the dugout. I love his attitude while at the plate and when he hits the ball. It seems as if he's having a ball out there while still playing hard.



19 points difference in the minors leagues is as de minimis as it comes.

He pretended to high five some players. My all means let's give him a 10 year contract.

Look, I like Grandal, but trading Mes and entrusting catcher to Hannigan over the next 5 years would be a really bad move.

Scrap Irony
07-22-2012, 11:32 PM
You are in the minority.

Mes has better plate disciplne, power, defense and arm. I think you arefalling in love with Grandal's 25% FB/HR rate. Better enjoy it now, you'll likley never see it again.

Not if you compare them across their levels. Grandal's minor league OPS is much higher, as is his BB rate. His slugging percentage is also quite a bit higher. That .913 OPS he sports is elite, especially for a catcher. His arm rates as plus by most scouts, too. (The rest of his defensive tools need work, they say.)

Mesoraco has a higher HR percentage and a higher 3B percentage. But Grandal's double percentage is much, much higher. Mesoraco's Iso slugging is better, but Grandal's got a much better hit tool (.314 career minor league BA to .269, .314 last two seasons to .295). He's also got a much higher BB rate-- 14+% to 9+%.

Grandal's minor league numbers are elite for a catcher. I mean across the board elite. (His power-- 20 HR, 50 2B in 700 ABs-- is his weakest offensive tool.) Defensively, he needs work. But he's a year younger than Mesoraco and already playing well in his limited time at the major league level. Mesoraco has yet to take that step.

And he might. Lots of prognosticators like him. A lot. They see tons of power from a quick, compact stroke.

Scrap Irony
07-22-2012, 11:34 PM
19 points difference in the minors leagues is as de minimis as it comes.

It's only 19 points over the past two years. With Grandal doing better but being a year younger.

It's .269 to .314 over minor league careers.

And I'd still argue 19 points of BA is substantial.

Mario-Rijo
07-23-2012, 12:10 AM
It's only 19 points over the past two years. With Grandal doing better but being a year younger.

It's .269 to .314 over minor league careers.

And I'd still argue 19 points of BA is substantial.

I say don't be surprised when Mesoraco surpasses him offensively in the Majors. Production is only an indicator if all things are equal, they are not IMO. Grandal has had more advanced coaching, started out with a headstart based on geography. Grandal Is mechanically more sound at this point with a more mature approach. If it weren't for Mes intangibles I might figure him not to be able to improve his mechanics and approach. But I think he can and will. I also think Grandal has some things he may not be able to fix going forward.

Plus Plus
07-23-2012, 12:30 AM
It's only 19 points over the past two years. With Grandal doing better but being a year younger.

It's .269 to .314 over minor league careers.

And I'd still argue 19 points of BA is substantial.

One was drafted out of high school and one was drafted out of college, for what that's worth.

Mesoraco also has a .225 career BABIP so far in his career.

corkedbat
07-23-2012, 01:39 AM
Trade Heisey and acquire Span and Kotsay. Once Joey gets back:

Vs. LHP:

LF: Frazier
CF: Stubbs
RF: Ludwick

Vs. the toughest RHP:

LF: Kotsay
CF: Span
RF: Bruce

Against more mediocre righties, mix it up a little.

Just stirrin' the nest a bit. :D

corkedbat
07-23-2012, 02:07 AM
After this weekend's sweep, some talk on MLBTR that the Brewers could become sellers and make Corey Hart available. I'm not sure they would and less sure they would deal him with in the division. Say they would though. Would you want him and what would you be willing to give up. Same question for Hunter Pence from the Phils.

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2012/07/knobler-on-greinke-brewers-hamels-phillies.html

traderumor
07-23-2012, 10:33 AM
Not if you compare them across their levels. Grandal's minor league OPS is much higher, as is his BB rate. His slugging percentage is also quite a bit higher. That .913 OPS he sports is elite, especially for a catcher. His arm rates as plus by most scouts, too. (The rest of his defensive tools need work, they say.)

Mesoraco has a higher HR percentage and a higher 3B percentage. But Grandal's double percentage is much, much higher. Mesoraco's Iso slugging is better, but Grandal's got a much better hit tool (.314 career minor league BA to .269, .314 last two seasons to .295). He's also got a much higher BB rate-- 14+% to 9+%.

Grandal's minor league numbers are elite for a catcher. I mean across the board elite. (His power-- 20 HR, 50 2B in 700 ABs-- is his weakest offensive tool.) Defensively, he needs work. But he's a year younger than Mesoraco and already playing well in his limited time at the major league level. Mesoraco has yet to take that step.

And he might. Lots of prognosticators like him. A lot. They see tons of power from a quick, compact stroke.This is where I call shenanigans. I saw his arm for myself. It's a noodle. The Reds made the Larkin/Stillwell call here, albeit before both had major league service time. You like Grandal, but let's not start making stuff up.

Benihana
07-23-2012, 10:37 AM
A guy I've long been advocating as a fit for the Reds might be going on the market according to ESPN:


Gordon shopped for pitching?
8:48
AM ET
Alex Gordon | Royals
RECOMMEND1COMMENTS1EMAIL

The Kansas City Royals are believed to be looking for pitching help after giving up on Jonathan Sanchez and trading him to Colorado. One of the trade chips could be Alex Gordon, says Nick Cafardo in Sunday's Boston Globe.

Gordon has been the everyday left fielder in Kansas City and is hitting .292 after a .303 season in 2011. With top outfielder prospect Wil Myers expected to be promoted shortly, the Royals could be willing to deal from an outfield surplus.

Cafardo suggests the Yankees as a possible suitor for Gordon given a possibly season-ending injury to Brett Gardner. The Yankees, however, seem content with their left field platoon of veterans Raul Ibanez and Andruw Jones.

I'd rather have Gordon than Headley.

Mario-Rijo
07-23-2012, 10:53 AM
A guy I've long been advocating as a fit for the Reds might be going on the market according to ESPN:


I'd rather have Gordon than Headley.

I think Headley is better at 3rd which is part of the reason I want him. But strictly as a LF, Gordon's power is probably better giving him the edge there.

Love to have him but I don't see a match there.

Scrap Irony
07-23-2012, 12:47 PM
You like Grandal, but let's not start making stuff up.

That's remarkably insulting and completely uncalled for.

Evidence on scouting reports:
PadreProspects.com

1) Yasmani Grandal In his first full season as a professional, Grandal firmly established himself as a legitimate two-way catcher. He has taken some heat for his receiving skills, but Grandal has enough athleticism and plus arm strength to at least be average defensively down the road. Combine that with a legitimate middle-of-the-order bat and youve got the most intriguing player in a deep Padres system. ETA: Late 2012

The Scouting Book

A switch-hitting Cuban catcher with a powerful right arm, Grandal was the top actual-catcher of the 2010 draft class. While his receiving and game-calling need a lot of work, his bat is already looking like a premium contact weapon, and with his body type, overall athleticism and team-leader personality, he looks likely to remain behind the plate.

Perfect Game

Yasmani Grandal is a 2007 C with a 6'2'', 215 lb. frame from Hialeah, FL, who attends Miami Springs HS. Grandal has a large frame with present strength. He is one of the top defensive catchers in this year's draft. Grandal has arm strength (82 mph) and is very accurate with all of his throws on the bag. During game action, Grandal threw out the fastest runner at the event trying to steal 2B.

Baseball America

[Grandal] he has the arm strength and physicality to be an everyday catcher. He's also an experienced game-caller, and on the offensive side of the ledger he has strong plate discipline and average power.

Perhaps you need to check your eyes. Or at least the unfounded accusations about fellow posters "making stuff up"?

OesterPoster
07-23-2012, 12:49 PM
What's uncalled for is turning a thread about trade targets into a peeing match about Mez vs. Grandal. Take it to a different thread.

RANDY IN INDY
07-23-2012, 12:50 PM
What's uncalled for is turning a thread about trade targets into a peeing match about Mez vs. Grandal. Take it to a different thread.

:beerme:

traderumor
07-23-2012, 01:03 PM
That's remarkably insulting and completely uncalled for.

Evidence on scouting reports:
PadreProspects.com


The Scouting Book


Perfect Game


Baseball America


Perhaps you need to check your eyes. Or at least the unfounded accusations about fellow posters "making stuff up"?Let's just say those scouting reports are suspect. I got my first look at Grandal in the Reds series, and either he has an injured arm or your sources are simply incorrect. The Reds ran on him and his throws were short and tailing to the right. My eyes are fine, my first thought was that his arm was probably a factor in the Reds' decision. Notice I'm going on my own observation. I'm not an expert, but the scouts would have some explaining to do based on what I saw in the Reds series, because his throws to second were clearly weak.

Boss-Hog
07-23-2012, 01:08 PM
What's uncalled for is turning a thread about trade targets into a peeing match about Mez vs. Grandal. Take it to a different thread.

Yes, this discussion is for a different thread.

Benihana
07-23-2012, 01:14 PM
I think Headley is better at 3rd which is part of the reason I want him. But strictly as a LF, Gordon's power is probably better giving him the edge there.

Love to have him but I don't see a match there.

Gordon only needs to play 3B until Votto comes back and/or if Rolen goes down again (during that time). Once Votto returns and Rolen retires, Todd Frazier (and/or possibly Henry Rodriguez) will be our 3B. What we need is an OF that can get on base, especially against righties. Gordon can do that and can slug.

Given their timeline of contention, I'd imagine KC would be very interested in Mike Leake, Dan Corcino, Tony Cingrani and Kyle Lotzkar. With Broxton allegedly on the block and a FA after the year, I'd imagine Joseph, Hoover, and possibly Masset could all be of interest as well. A guy who could play 2B (ie Gregorius) wouldn't hurt either.

mdccclxix
07-23-2012, 01:34 PM
Something needs to shake out with these pending FA's that won't bring back an arb pick in next year's draft if they change teams now. Hamels, Greinke, Dempster, etc. I would think at least one top prospect should still get it done, considering it did last year with Beltran and Wheeler. That seems fair, as it sets the selling team up with a prospect now instead of 9 months from now. Beyond that, the opportunity to have the star player play for your team the rest of the year and maybe sign an extention, that packaged value, should also be worth a B or C prospect, right?

edit: i don't know if this makes sense for the buyer still, nm. perhaps we see more prospect for prospect deals involved, or more certainly mlb for mlb player deals.