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View Full Version : Don't get me wrong, I love Hanny......



jhu1321
07-20-2012, 09:17 PM
..... but I think I'm ready to see Meso pick up another pitcher and take the lead in playing time. It really looks like he's starting to get more comfortable at the plate and having good at bats. The future has arrived IMO.

Unassisted
07-20-2012, 09:20 PM
Dusty won't see it that way. I predict that long as Hanigan hits over .200, he'll get most of the starts this season.

RedlegJake
07-20-2012, 10:20 PM
Mesoraco is the sole reason I'd like to see Hanny traded. Let Navarro back him up. While Hanigan is here Mesoraco will never get the lion's share of playing time.

Vottomatic
07-20-2012, 10:37 PM
I still think Hanigan is undervalued. Heck, I still miss Ramon.

Spitball
07-20-2012, 10:50 PM
I still think Hanigan is undervalued. Heck, I still miss Ramon.

At least Hanigan can get on base. I don't think the Reds should trade the only active player (with Votto out) who can get on base. I think he should be playing first base in Votto's absence.

dougdirt
07-20-2012, 10:55 PM
At least Hanigan can get on base. I don't think the Reds should trade the only active player (with Votto out) who can get on base. I think he should be playing first base in Votto's absence.

Since the start of June Hanigan is hitting .238/.326/.310.

PuffyPig
07-20-2012, 11:03 PM
At least Hanigan can get on base. I don't think the Reds should trade the only active player (with Votto out) who can get on base. I think he should be playing first base in Votto's absence.

That would make sense if he could, you know, play 1B....

Spitball
07-20-2012, 11:17 PM
Since the start of June Hanigan is hitting .238/.326/.310.

In the last 28 games, Rolen is .304/.225/.529. Hanigan is .300/.333/.633. Maybe Hanigan can't play first...who knows? He played 59 games there in the minors.

TOBTTReds
07-20-2012, 11:50 PM
In the last 28 games, Rolen is .304/.225/.529. Hanigan is .300/.333/.633. Maybe Hanigan can't play first...who knows? He played 59 games there in the minors.

What does Hanigan's line have to do with Rolen's? Or are you saying Frazier should be at 3rd and Hanny at 1B?

Side note, slash lines are Avg/OBP/SLG

dougdirt
07-20-2012, 11:52 PM
In the last 28 games, Rolen is .304/.225/.529. Hanigan is .300/.333/.633. Maybe Hanigan can't play first...who knows? He played 59 games there in the minors.

I know that Hanigan can't hit enough to play first base, even part time.

VR
07-21-2012, 01:34 AM
I know that Hanigan can't hit enough to play first base, even part time.

It would be nice if Mes could at least out hit Hanny so we can have the discussion that he should have most of the PT.

An OK July so far, hopefully he's coming around.

AtomicDumpling
07-21-2012, 04:36 AM
I am fine with keeping the current 60/40 playing time split for Hanigan/Mesoraco until Devin can truly earn more playing time. Right now Hanigan is the better defensive catcher and the more productive hitter.

What I don't get is why the experienced veteran catcher Hanigan catches the experienced crafty veteran pitcher Bronson Arroyo, while the raw rookie catcher Devin Mesoraco catches the inexperienced, non-crafty, still-learning young pitcher Homer Bailey.

Seems like Mesoraco could learn a lot by pairing up with Arroyo, and Homer could learn a lot by pairing up with Hanigan. Right now we have the blind leading the blind and the trail guide leading another trail guide.

PuffyPig
07-21-2012, 07:33 AM
What I don't get is why the experienced veteran catcher Hanigan catches the experienced crafty veteran pitcher Bronson Arroyo, while the raw rookie catcher Devin Mesoraco catches the inexperienced, non-crafty, still-learning young pitcher Homer Bailey.

Seems like Mesoraco could learn a lot by pairing up with Arroyo, and Homer could learn a lot by pairing up with Hanigan. Right now we have the blind leading the blind and the trail guide leading another trail guide.

The current match up is doing just fine.

_Sir_Charles_
07-21-2012, 09:39 AM
The current match up is doing just fine.

Exactly. Anybody wonder if Bronson is having a good year BECAUSE he feels comfortable with Hanigan? Same for Homer with Mesoraco. I personally think Baker is handling the catching situation perfectly. Eventually Devin will force himself into the lead role and more playing time. Until then, Ryan is more than capable.

AtomicDumpling
07-21-2012, 10:21 AM
Exactly. Anybody wonder if Bronson is having a good year BECAUSE he feels comfortable with Hanigan? Same for Homer with Mesoraco. I personally think Baker is handling the catching situation perfectly. Eventually Devin will force himself into the lead role and more playing time. Until then, Ryan is more than capable.

I agree Mesoraco has a lot to learn and until then Hanigan should get most of the work. That is what I said before. The point you may have missed is that Mesoraco can learn a lot from Arroyo, so having him work with Arroyo instead of Bailey could accelerate Mesoraco's development as a catcher.

The same goes for Bailey working with Hanigan. Bailey could learn a lot by working with a top-notch defensive catcher with tons of experience like Hanigan. I am sure Bailey's numbers would be even better if he had been working with Hanigan instead of Mesoraco all year.

The Reds should make sure to have that veteran experience, wisdom and savvy transferred to the young players while the veterans are still here. Having the veterans working with each other instead of the youngsters is wasting an opportunity. I am sure they discuss things during off-time, but there is nothing like doing it on the field in game action.

Bronson Arroyo is having a good year? News to me. His days as a good pitcher were over years ago. Many folks predicted Arroyo would have a bounce back season this year and his three good cold-weather starts in April convinced those people they were right. But ever since then Arroyo has been mediocre at best just like last year. He has a 4.50 ERA since May 1st and it has been rising quickly ever since then.

Arroyo has had the benefit of working with Hanigan, who is a far better catcher than Mesoraco and that has helped his numbers at the expense of Bailey (since Bailey has not had the good fortune to work with Hanigan). Hanigan makes any pitcher look better. But his experience would work better for Bailey because Bailey could learn so much from him.

TOBTTReds
07-21-2012, 12:43 PM
It would be nice if Mes could at least out hit Hanny so we can have the discussion that he should have most of the PT.


I agree. It's really tough though, just playing twice out of every 5 games, and also being a rookie learning to hit in the 8th spot. Just don't see consistent pitching there.

I will say, last night dissapointed me when he was very late on an 88 mph FB. He seems to be missing pitches that a big leaguer should be crushing.

WVRedsFan
07-21-2012, 12:50 PM
I agree. It's really tough though, just playing twice out of every 5 games, and also being a rookie learning to hit in the 8th spot. Just don't see consistent pitching there.
Agree. I think they are using him the right way--easing him in. When the time comes, he'll be ready. The same could be said for Cozart and Frazier. All will be fine in time.


I will say, last night dissapointed me when he was very late on an 88 mph FB. He seems to be missing pitches that a big leaguer should be crushing.

I guess rookies do that. He probably learns everytime he plays.

nate
07-21-2012, 12:51 PM
Exactly. Anybody wonder if Bronson is having a good year BECAUSE he feels comfortable with Hanigan? Same for Homer with Mesoraco. I personally think Baker is handling the catching situation perfectly. Eventually Devin will force himself into the lead role and more playing time. Until then, Ryan is more than capable.

Put me down for "one non-wonderer."

Thanks!

:cool:

Blitz Dorsey
07-21-2012, 01:09 PM
Our catching situation is a great problem to have. The Reds have been very fortunate at the catcher position the last few years. Razor Ramon/Hanigan was a good combo, and now Hanigan/Mesoraco is a good combo. One of these guys is likely to get hurt at some point, so it's good we have both of them. It's also good to know a proven MLB vet like Navarro is raking in AAA if needed. No doubt he'll be called up when the rosters expand in September, but if there's an injury to Hanigan or Mes, Navarro can step right in at any time. A lot of teams -- such as the Yankees -- would kill to have our situation at catcher.

DGullett35
07-21-2012, 04:02 PM
Mesoraco is the sole reason I'd like to see Hanny traded. Let Navarro back him up. While Hanigan is here Mesoraco will never get the lion's share of playing time.

I think Hanny is vastly underrated. I feel hes is a big reason Cueto, Latos, and Arroyo are having the seasons there having. Latos was horrid until Hanny started catching him. Now that may not be the only reason he started to turn things around I believe its a big part of it. Hanny has to get alot of credit for this starting staff and pen. I dont know for sure but when Aroldis was struggling in June Hanny was brought in a couple times in the 9th to catch him and hes looked OK most everytime since. Coincidence? maybe but I feel Hanny is one of the most valuable parts to this team in 2012 pitching wise

AtomicDumpling
07-22-2012, 02:53 AM
I think Hanny is vastly underrated. I feel hes is a big reason Cueto, Latos, and Arroyo are having the seasons there having. Latos was horrid until Hanny started catching him. Now that may not be the only reason he started to turn things around I believe its a big part of it. Hanny has to get alot of credit for this starting staff and pen. I dont know for sure but when Aroldis was struggling in June Hanny was brought in a couple times in the 9th to catch him and hes looked OK most everytime since. Coincidence? maybe but I feel Hanny is one of the most valuable parts to this team in 2012 pitching wise

Agreed. Having Hanigan behind the plate can shave half a run or more off a pitcher's ERA for the season. I haven't seen the numbers lately but a while back they said Hanigan's "Catcher ERA" was something like 2nd in the majors over the last few seasons. Ramon Hernandez, who was catching the same pitchers as Hanigan, was way down the list and so was Mesoraco in a small sample.

There are many factors that go into this. Calling pitches wisely; framing pitches to influence the umpire; blocking balls in the dirt; presenting a solid target for the pitcher; throwing out base stealers; fielding bunts, pop fouls and short grounders; blocking the plate on throws home; and experienced game management all contribute to reducing the opponents' chances of scoring and hence improving the pitcher's ERA. Hanigan is excellent at all of these things while Mesoraco still has a lot to learn.

Imagine how much worse Arroyo's ERA would be if he had Mesoraco instead of Hanigan catching all his starts. Imagine how much better Bailey's ERA would be if he had Hanigan instead of Mesoraco catching all his starts.

dougdirt
07-22-2012, 12:26 PM
Agreed. Having Hanigan behind the plate can shave half a run or more off a pitcher's ERA for the season. I haven't seen the numbers lately but a while back they said Hanigan's "Catcher ERA" was something like 2nd in the majors over the last few seasons. Ramon Hernandez, who was catching the same pitchers as Hanigan, was way down the list and so was Mesoraco in a small sample.

There are many factors that go into this. Calling pitches wisely; framing pitches to influence the umpire; blocking balls in the dirt; presenting a solid target for the pitcher; throwing out base stealers; fielding bunts, pop fouls and short grounders; blocking the plate on throws home; and experienced game management all contribute to reducing the opponents' chances of scoring and hence improving the pitcher's ERA. Hanigan is excellent at all of these things while Mesoraco still has a lot to learn.

Imagine how much worse Arroyo's ERA would be if he had Mesoraco instead of Hanigan catching all his starts. Imagine how much better Bailey's ERA would be if he had Hanigan instead of Mesoraco catching all his starts.

John Fay posted yesterday (before the game) that Hanigan's catchers ERA was 3.12, while Mesoraco's was 3.68.

I hate the idea of catchers ERA. Of course Hanigan's cERA is going to be better, he catches Johnny Cueto. Cueto is good because of his skill, not because Hanigan is catching him. I think Hanigan is a good catcher and I think he does make a difference versus the average guy. But it isn't THAT big of a difference. Good pitchers switch teams all the time and are still very good pitchers. It isn't because of the catcher, it is because they have a very good skillset.

Kc61
07-22-2012, 12:55 PM
IMO, Hanigan is a superb defensive catcher. Just a smattering of his numbers for this year, he has 3 errors, 1 passed ball, low stolen base percentage against him, the pitchers perform well when he catches.

Mesoraco is a good prospect, as I watched the SD series I'm glad the Reds kept Devin over Grandal.

In praising Mes, though, there should be no doubt that the Reds already have an excellent veteran catcher in Hanigan.

AtomicDumpling
07-23-2012, 01:37 AM
John Fay posted yesterday (before the game) that Hanigan's catchers ERA was 3.12, while Mesoraco's was 3.68.

I hate the idea of catchers ERA. Of course Hanigan's cERA is going to be better, he catches Johnny Cueto. Cueto is good because of his skill, not because Hanigan is catching him. I think Hanigan is a good catcher and I think he does make a difference versus the average guy. But it isn't THAT big of a difference. Good pitchers switch teams all the time and are still very good pitchers. It isn't because of the catcher, it is because they have a very good skillset.

I don't think anybody has said that Cueto's ERA is good only because Hanigan is his catcher. That is a bit of a strawman. But sure, a catcher who works only with good pitchers is going to have a better cERA than a catcher who works only with bad pitchers. But most catchers work with a variety of pitchers. Hanigan also works with Arroyo (the Reds' worst pitcher) and many other pitchers too, so that serves to heavily dilute the positive effect of working with Cueto.

Catcher's ERA can tell you a lot about some players. The point to note about the catcher's ERA number is to make sure you use a large sample size and compare catchers that work with the same pitchers. I think a look around the league shows a strong trend that there is a very big difference between the best and worst catchers regarding the impact they have on reducing run scoring by the opponent regardless of their cERA stats. Catchers have a major effect on defense. But the point I was making while using cERA as a tool is that Hanigan has a ton of experience and wisdom that he can share with the young pitchers to help them improve their craft, any other phrases were incidental to that main theme.

Hanigan's cERA over the course of his career is based on a lot more than simply catching for Johnny Cueto this year. For example, over the last few years Hanigan's catcher ERA was far better than Ramon Hernandez's even though they were catching the same mix of pitchers. This clearly shows that Hanigan is a very good defensive catcher who can nurture the development of raw young pitchers like Homer Bailey if he were only allowed to work with him and share his knowledge and experience.

This whole topic arose because it would make sense to have the young players work with the veteran players so they can learn from them. Hanigan can't catch every day, so it makes sense to have him work with the young pitchers who can benefit from his experience instead of having Hanigan catch the savvy veteran Bronson Arroyo. Arroyo should be working with Mesoraco to let Bronson's experience flow in Mesoraco's direction and help him improve faster too. By not doing this the Reds are wasting an opportunity to improve the effectiveness of the pitching staff in the future.

AtomicDumpling
07-23-2012, 01:52 AM
IMO, Hanigan is a superb defensive catcher. Just a smattering of his numbers for this year, he has 3 errors, 1 passed ball, low stolen base percentage against him, the pitchers perform well when he catches.

Mesoraco is a good prospect, as I watched the SD series I'm glad the Reds kept Devin over Grandal.

In praising Mes, though, there should be no doubt that the Reds already have an excellent veteran catcher in Hanigan.

I agree 100%. Hanigan is one of the absolute best defensive catchers in baseball. He is no slouch with the bat either, but his defense is what makes him such a valuable commodity.

Mesoraco is a great prospect and will likely develop into a very good catcher both offensively and defensively. But for a team that is trying to win right now Hanigan is the best option.

dougdirt
07-23-2012, 07:01 AM
I don't think anybody has said that Cueto's ERA is good only because Hanigan is his catcher. That is a bit of a strawman. But sure, a catcher who works only with good pitchers is going to have a better cERA than a catcher who works only with bad pitchers. But most catchers work with a variety of pitchers. Hanigan also works with Arroyo (the Reds' worst pitcher) and many other pitchers too, so that serves to heavily dilute the positive effect of working with Cueto.

Catcher's ERA can tell you a lot about some players. The point to note about the catcher's ERA number is to make sure you use a large sample size and compare catchers that work with the same pitchers. I think a look around the league shows a strong trend that there is a very big difference between the best and worst catchers regarding the impact they have on reducing run scoring by the opponent regardless of their cERA stats. Catchers have a major effect on defense. But the point I was making while using cERA as a tool is that Hanigan has a ton of experience and wisdom that he can share with the young pitchers to help them improve their craft, any other phrases were incidental to that main theme.

Hanigan's cERA over the course of his career is based on a lot more than simply catching for Johnny Cueto this year. For example, over the last few years Hanigan's catcher ERA was far better than Ramon Hernandez's even though they were catching the same mix of pitchers. This clearly shows that Hanigan is a very good defensive catcher who can nurture the development of raw young pitchers like Homer Bailey if he were only allowed to work with him and share his knowledge and experience.

This whole topic arose because it would make sense to have the young players work with the veteran players so they can learn from them. Hanigan can't catch every day, so it makes sense to have him work with the young pitchers who can benefit from his experience instead of having Hanigan catch the savvy veteran Bronson Arroyo. Arroyo should be working with Mesoraco to let Bronson's experience flow in Mesoraco's direction and help him improve faster too. By not doing this the Reds are wasting an opportunity to improve the effectiveness of the pitching staff in the future.

It is only a strawman if you took it in the sense that I was saying Hanigan's cERA is only good because of Cueto, which I wasn't. I was simply saying that Hanigan's cERA is noticeably better than Mesoraco's because of Cueto.

Hanigan has caught Bailey in the past, as recently as last season. Mesoraco seems to be doing better with Bailey than anyone in the past has. Is it that because of something he is doing? Doubtful. It is probably because Bailey is at the point where he is doing something that is helping him.

Hanigan is an outstanding defensive catcher. Arguably one of the best in the game. Mesoraco however has been pretty strong this season as well.

Hoosier Red
07-23-2012, 07:57 AM
I do think it would be interesting to compare cERA after taking out Cueto's innings. Certainly wouldn't be definitive in any way, but interesting none the less.

I do think the trend of having Hannigan come in to catch Chapman and Chapman's recent run of success is interesting. Seemed like Chapman's "refusal" to throw sliders coincided with the last few games of Mes catching him. Maybe he didn't feel comfortable throwing those with Mes behind the dish.

I have no reason to believe that was the case, or if it was why he would feel that way, but seemed to correlate loosely.

redsmetz
07-23-2012, 08:08 AM
I do think it would be interesting to compare cERA after taking out Cueto's innings. Certainly wouldn't be definitive in any way, but interesting none the less.

I do think the trend of having Hannigan come in to catch Chapman and Chapman's recent run of success is interesting. Seemed like Chapman's "refusal" to throw sliders coincided with the last few games of Mes catching him. Maybe he didn't feel comfortable throwing those with Mes behind the dish.

I have no reason to believe that was the case, or if it was why he would feel that way, but seemed to correlate loosely.

Isn't it also possible that Mez doesn't quite trust calling the slider? I found it interesting after Leake's last game when Hanigan finished out the game. The paper had a rare comment from Dusty taking Leake and Mez to task for pitches called during the inning where the other team scored a number of runs (something like calling fastballs against a group of batters who can only hit fastballs).

I think Mez is still in the learning curve and it's mostly why I believe we're bringing him along just fine. Virtually none of us know the complexity of learning these skills, especially for a catcher. Besides learning the defensive intricacies, there's the game calling and obviously not just the pitch by pitch calling. And on top of that, they're supposed to be progressing as an offensive player. Devan's day will come soon enough.

dougdirt
07-23-2012, 11:49 AM
Isn't it also possible that Mez doesn't quite trust calling the slider? I found it interesting after Leake's last game when Hanigan finished out the game. The paper had a rare comment from Dusty taking Leake and Mez to task for pitches called during the inning where the other team scored a number of runs (something like calling fastballs against a group of batters who can only hit fastballs).

I think Mez is still in the learning curve and it's mostly why I believe we're bringing him along just fine. Virtually none of us know the complexity of learning these skills, especially for a catcher. Besides learning the defensive intricacies, there's the game calling and obviously not just the pitch by pitch calling. And on top of that, they're supposed to be progressing as an offensive player. Devan's day will come soon enough.

Homer Bailey once again has one of the most effective sliders in baseball (8th right now in terms of value per 100 sliders thrown).

Raisor
07-23-2012, 12:29 PM
Mes doesn't "call for the slider" because he isn't calling the game. The game is being called from the dugout.

Also:

OPS

Mes .681
Han .686